20 December 2009

Daily Chat 20/12/09

On his way back to England after the Third Crusade, Richard I was imprisoned by Leopold V of Austria in 1192.  After eight months and a loss of more than 10,000 Anzac troops, the last of the Australian troops was evacuated from Gallipoli in 1915.  A freight train carrying more than 1,000,000 litres of petrol derailed in the Summit Tunnel near the village of Todmorden in West Yorkshire.  The petrol was ignited and the resultant fire was the largest underground fire in history.  The Picasso painting Portrait of Suzanne Bloch and a painting by Brazilian artist Candido Portinari were stolen from the Museum of the Arts of São Paulo in 2007.

Born today:  Jenny Agutter (1952) and Billy Bragg (1957).

It is the feast day of Saint Dominic of Silos.


  1. Morning Montana and all.

    Some character called Seldon, who appears to be a bit of fellater fellow for Blair is trying to prop up the warmonger-in-chief's reputation over here:


  2. My goodness - Jenny looks well for 57!

    Atomboy, won't look at it only makes me angry. I remember that Tony Blair thread in which we all of us - left, right, jokers and freaks - raged and in which I got i think four deletions and at least one comment wiped totally. Matt Seaton came on to slap our collective wrist.

    A recent TLS piece quoted that canny observer Gyles Brandreth as identifying Blair as 'dangerous' in 1993 - just how dangerous he is, we were all to find out.

  3. - Todmorden (aka Tod) a Fine Yorkshire town -

    "Until 1938, the town was served by no fewer than six railway stations: Todmorden, Stansfield Hall, Cornholme, Portsmouth, Walsden and Eastwood. With the exception of Todmorden station, all six closed during the middle third of the 20th century, though Walsden station reopened on 10 September 1990 on a site a few yards north of the original 1845 station.

    The town has two Nobel Prize winners: Prof. Sir John Cockcroft (Physics) and Prof. Sir Geoffrey Wilkinson (Chemistry). Despite 24 years' difference in their birth dates, both attended Todmorden Grammar School (now Ferney Lee Primary School) and both had the same science master."

    All in all the town has a lot going for it - the only serious drawback is that since the town once sat astride the Yorkshire/Lancashire border it has allowed some Lanc's bastards residency.

  4. OMG! Just opened the Ciffies thread and there is visible cock in the piccy!

    Nice way to start the day. ;-)

  5. Superb post on the Sheldon thread, Atomboy.

    I liked the bit about Blair walking down a high street on a Saturday with no bodyguards as a guage of his popularity... :o)

  6. The delightful Jenny Augtter was to have opened the last of the annual summer Victorian Hayrides in a local village two years ago.

    Needless to say there was a long list of volunteers (with me at the top) to act as wardrobe assistants (dressers and undressers sort of thing). She got a sore throat and her appearance was cancelled! Bloody Thesps I was really up for it, I even wore me sandals without socks that day.

    She remains even at 57 many a Yorkshireman's idea of a perfect "bit of 'tother" - ie a desirable example of a lass with fine grammar and a cracking smile...

    Tod and Jenny both in one day! - a much appreciated Christmas present thank you Montana(Hope Walmart not too much shit yesterday)

    A crisp and sunny morn with fresh fall of snow here so I'm away with the dogs to play at Dr Zhivago to the divine Julie Christie's Laura (it only takes a single snowflake to set me off)

    Laura's Tune

    Julie - fine lady who apparently got pissed off with the glitz and married a leftish journalist and went to live in near isolation in Montgomery near the Wales/Salop border

    Sheff - if you call by today (holds up misiltoe) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx have great time in Constantinople.

    Chinxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx thanks for nit advice. A nit comb makes for a great scratch - I fear I may become addicted it's such a delightful relief...

    I thought I might buy a dozen nit combs as Christmas presents for my favourite checkout ladies - surely at least one of them might have a suitable imagination

  7. That Christie can get me to put a u into Lara without a care!!

    thauma(miss whiplish) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Lest I forget a deserved Christmas exchange!

    (I didn't expect to see you around this early after your joyful exertions of the last few days...)

    If that fucking Gloria Honeyford advert don't get off me radio I'll sling it!

  8. BB - you around too! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

  9. The beautiful Julie Christie. Beauty, brains and integrity.

    Immortalised in the alternative music scene's eyes with US indie exponents Yo La Tengo's Tom Courtenay

  10. thaumaturge

    Yes, I had seen that but I am still puzzled about what the bloke in the boiler-suit and peaked cap might be holding in his hand, clasped into the shape of an 'O'.

    The bloke behind him is certainly leaping up in joy or, perhaps, sudden surprise.


    Thanks. I have to say that is one I have recycled from past lives on CiF, but Atomgirl forever tells me that all I do is repeat what I have already told her, so I don't see why CiF should be immune.

  11. Cheers Duke.

    Tom Courtney (a fine Yorkshire Thesp from Hull) as Strelinkov in Zhivago was brill.

  12. No problems deano,

    it's never a chore for me to bring up Courtenay or the kitchen sink dramas.

    Courtenay as Colin Smith in 'The loneliness of the long distance runner' is my favourite 'kitchen sink' character.

    His reply to the borstal house leader who says there's no use fighting the system as they have the 'whip hand':

    Do you know what I'd do if I had the whip hand? I'd get all the coppers, governers, posh whores, army officers and members of parliament and I'd stick them up against this wall and let them have it 'cause that's what they'd like to do to blokes like us

    Still rings as true today as it did in 1962.

  13. Morning all!
    atomboy saw the sheldon thread last night couldn't read it all just made me feel unwell and I had just read Prescott..i know a bit S&M...they should put health warnings with anything to do with 2 jags and bliar

    Jenny "Oh! My Daddy, my Daddy" Agutter ah The Railway Children! Nesbit was a founding member of the Fabian Society and a bit of a lush by all accounts....

  14. Yo!

    Lots of Christmas xxxxxxxxxs to deano & everyone else.

    It's snowing here now and I'm feeling pretty mellow myself.

    Todmorden is also famous for being Britain's greenest town

  15. Christmas kisses and hugs to you all. xoxoxoxoxox

    Yo La Tengo - class band.

    I am cooking roast beef and yorkies for lunch. Best invention in the world, yorkshire pudding (although I cheat these days and buy Aunt Bessies). The smell is gorgeous.

  16. Lovely snow here - its like walking on the stars from the sky. Walking to the North with the sun at your back it glistens and sparkles like a carpet of diamonds.

    The kind of snow that if you were walking with a lass you'd throw your coat on the floor and suggest a quick sexual liason to warm the pair of you.

    "...I don't suppose......I don't suppose you'd warm these chilled hands of mine on those fine breasts of your'n for a shilling would you young miss"

    Always worked a treat when I were a lad - nowadays it gets me thrown out of supermarkets when addressed to a mature lady.

    I think it must be non PC to call a fine mature woman "young miss" these days. The bastards over at the Guard have a lot to answer for if you ask me.

    That fegging Gloria Honeyford is on the radio again and I really don't give a toss if she had problems with her cholesterol the tedious bint. Proper from the Emerald don't talk like her.

  17. Duke

    I enjoyed Tom in that role too.

    I much enjoyed him with Finney and Lumley in a "A Rather English Marriage". He seems to get even better with age - so too does Finney and Lumley

  18. Couldn't figure how to download a picture from internet so I knocked one out. Then I painted a quick picture of a stoat.

    Take your tablets, you are a bad influence like this.

  19. Chin - Tod's in danger of being a knit your own yoghurt sort of place since them bastards from Lanc's were allowed in. Loads of tossers from Manchester and the like...

    Summat needs to be done about it.

    Wish you lived round the corner BB I'd be tempted to invite mesen around for lunch - in exchange for the secret of fine Yorks Pudding.

    Must dash an appointment for a warm shower for me (my water all frozen solid for last two days) and the dogs calls.

  20. Cheers Stoaty! - only four more days and then I'm back off the wagon our kid.

  21. I was going to get Mungo a subscription to the OED on-line for Christmas so that he could access things like:-

    " bint n. A girl or woman (usu. derog.); girl-friend.

    The term was in common use by British servicemen in Egypt and neighbouring countries in the wars of 1914-18 and 1939-45.

    1855 R. F. BURTON Pers. Narr. Pilgrimage to Meccah I. v. 121 ‘Allah! upon Allah! O daughter!’ cry the by-standers, when the obstinate ‘bint’ of sixty years seizes their hands. 1888 C. M. DOUGHTY Trav. Arabia Deserta I. viii. 231 Hirfa sighed for motherhood: she had been these two years with an husband and was yet bint, as the nomads say, ‘in her girlhood’. Ibid. xiii. 374 The homesick Beduin bint. 1919 Athenæum 25 July 664/2 Bint, girl. 1930 E. RAYMOND Jesting Army I. ii. 24 Damned jolly little bint, that one, too! 1938 ‘R. HYDE’ Godwits Fly xi. 169 Fancy turning in a smoke for a bint. 1941 New Statesman 30 Aug. (list of war slang) BintGirl friend. 1942 N. STREATFEILD Table for Six 151 I'd like her to grow up a lush bint. 1946 Penguin New Writing XXVIII. 175 What are the bints like round here, Tom? 1958 K. AMIS I like it Here xiii. 162 As the R.A.F. friend would have put it, you could never tell with these foreign bints."

    and I could learn him to be civilised - but he wasn't over keen when I put it to him.

    Right showering calls see you guys laters.

  22. Deano

    If you lived nearby you would be invited :o)

  23. gandolfo
    You were right about those fish butties - I had one this afternoon, really scrummy - once I'd managed to fight my way through the crowds. Seems like everyone in the city was out promendaing this afternoon. Lots of anglers along the waterfront and lining both sides of the Galata bridge.

    They hustle everywhere but with real charm in this city, consequently have spent a fortune - mainly in cafes (am spinning from all the turkish coffee) and in the Spice market. At this rate I'll be utterly broke when I get back.

    Theres a little plant market that sells leeches (they cure almost everything apparently), thought I might buy some and send them to our beloved leader as a hint.

    Enjoy the snow. The weather is balmy here, starry skies and a crescent moon - so can eat outside. Just off to a little place round the corner I noticed last night - all comfy sofas, rugs and sheesha pipes.

  24. BeautifulBurnout

    To make an oblique and tangential reply regarding EvidentlyChickentown I have to give credit to Hank on that one.

    I'm everywhere and nowhere, baby...

  25. Hehehe - I knew it was someone from here, cos of the vid the other night. Just didn't know whom.


  26. MoveAnyMountain? MAFuckingMountain?

    Drive by posting to confirm that I am available for the Midlands AA meeting with thauma and BW.

    Skimmed yesterday's posts, some interesting stuff, but having spent the last 48 hours on the piss, have nothing constructive to add at this stage(-;

    For now, I'd just like to say it's good to see BTH on here. I'd offer an olive branch if the term itself wasn't intrinsically sexist, implying as it does that only drippy whining women who were the butt of sexist jokes in On the Buses could be peacemakers.

    Also, enjoy your holiday, sheff. Have a good time, but remember, when you're casting your eye over the young Turks in the marketplace, that you've got a suitor back home who thinks the world of you and would be crushed if you imported a younger, brighter and less socially awkward model.

    And finally, people, as this is the time of year to be hopeful, to think that after years of awful grind that things really will get better, that the Red Revolution has finally found its Lenin and McGugan...


  27. Sheff - good to hear you are having a lovely time. :o)

  28. edit function please, Montana....

    My previous post included a "waves to rex" at the end of the greeting to sheff.

    And when I say "rex" I mean "rexmundi", "rexmundie" or any other formulation he chooses to use.

    The post on here the other day from rexi to that effect was one of the most laughably insipid responses I've ever read.

    And I've read Bru's stuff.

    Anyway, guys, I've got a late night's fitting at my tailor to get to. See you all at the Sour Grapes tomorrow.


  29. Hank

    "I'd offer an olive branch if the term itself wasn't intrinsically sexist, implying as it does that only drippy whining women who were the butt of sexist jokes in On the Buses could be peacemakers."

    LOL. Giving yer age away there, mistah!

  30. No olive branch needed - I've always looked on the Untrusted as some of my best online acquaintances, even friends from time to time.

    BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Actually it was seven and none of them would have been deleted without the moderators being prompted by an over-sensitive poster with a reputation to protect.

    So apart from the one that was partly about you MrsB, which despite the supposed "no moderation" policy on this site was rapidly censored, here, is the first of the six posts that were deleted from the CiF thread. Their vileness or otherwise, people will be able to judge for themselves:

    1. NapoleonKaramazov wrote:

    "She complained that the Tsunami killed more women than men, therefore climate change affected women more, totally ignoring the fact that Tsunamis are caused by plate tectonics, not climate change."

    No, apart from when the men are drunk, and sometimes even when they are, they can still out run women, who naturally think first about their children and their safety and future, rather than their next sexual encounter.

    Quite innocent really compared to some of the stuff you get on CiF, and here for that matter.

  31. Oh, Hank in too for a Midlands piss-up? Am tempted to try to organise it at my local for convenience's same, yet afeard that I'll be banned afterward. Pubs in Leam are crap - haven't found a good one yet - Warwick better but I'm not too familiar with most of them as Leam is easier to get to.

    Give us some dates - I'm free from Tuesday until the 1st (inclusive), basically.

  32. "convenience's same" ... should be *convenience's sake.

  33. Ah yes, Jenny Agutter. As a teenager in the 80s, seeing her name in the credits of a film in the TV guide was as good a reason as the Channel 4 red triangle to take the portable TV into my bedroom. Although Nastassja Kinski was probably even better...

  34. Job

    Do you seriously keep copies of every single post you have made on CiF?

  35. BTH/Job

    You consider yourself a patient bloke, do you? And now you've been banned from Cif, you want to come around here and make 'friends'?

    Well, no-one's going to stop you and if you make some sense, which you occasionally do (when you're not too busy attacking other posters), then that's perfectly acceptable. Let's just hope you can refrain from the misogynistic attacks on the female posters here.

  36. Paddy - the only thing I remember Natassia Kinsky in was Tess, and she was superb.

    No, I tell a lie: there was Blue Velvet, which I am trying to erase from my memory. The most horrific film I've ever seen.

  37. I agree that Kinski was great in Tess. I didn't see Blue Velvet, though. One to avoid, then?

  38. I am sitting here watching Miracle on 34th Street for the umpteenth time. Still brings a lump to my throat. I am such a girly.

    "I believe!"

  39. BB - Blue Velvet is great. But terrifying. Up to you.

  40. Thaum - I will read the synopsis on IMDB first. I am funny about films. Kill Bill type comic violence I can put up with, but anything more sinister and real and I get quite disturbed by it.

  41. BB

    Blue Velvet is amazing, but thauma's right. It's not family Christmas entertainment.

    BTW, Rage Against The Machine are victorious!

  42. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Here's the second:

    2. chagall wrote:

    "I've unfortunately already nominated heyhabib in the BTL commenter category, so I'm afraid that I can't add your good self. Perhaps a lesser award for offensive, off-topic ad hominens might be more in your line? Perhaps that will be a category next year."

    Or maybe it will be a category of "failing to understand that one person's totally relevant is another persons absolutely off topic.

    But that takes a lot more than even sophisticated rhetoric to understand.

    Really quite vile isn't it?

  43. Sounds like the usual lynchian weirdness. Not sure I like the sound of the sex stuff though. Hmm.

  44. Job

    I meant the ones about Steven Gately et al. I don't recall these ones being deleted. And, funnily enough, since you are the only person to have a record of them, being as how we don't actually keep a file of all your posts, I don't see how it can be gainsayed. You could pick any post you felt like and post it on here. Who cares other than you? You have a clear obsession that is getting out of control, my friend, and if I were you I would be worried about it.

  45. BB - it really is quite disturbing, as MsChin says.

  46. Hi all
    re nat kinski I remember her the most in "Cat People" wierd film music by Bowie, and Paris Texas
    but must agree Blue Velvet is friggin' weird but mesmorising...if I'm right it was Isabella Rossellini not Natasha Kin.ski
    (bit GIYUS there maybe she's a relative!)

  47. Cat People was bloody brilliant, gandolpho. But yeah, weird.

  48. Oh, Gandolfo, you are right! Now why do I see them as the same person?

  49. Good news about RATM too. Cowell was getting himself into quite a hissy fit about it all, wasn't he? I imagine he is seething now.

  50. well they are kind of similar physically they have that kind of sultry innocent sexiness IMO!
    Nat was considered at one point in her career the 2nd Ingrid bergman mother of isabella...spooky thaum....

  51. gandolfo

    Yes, it was Isabella Rossellini in Blue Velvet, Lynch's wife.

  52. @Bitey - drop the fucking "Job" username on here if you want to stick around, kiddo. It implies of course that you're being patient with those who toss slings and arrows at your righteous person.

    You lost whatever shreds of moral authority you might have had when you chose to attack Montana over there for child neglect simply because she spent some of her time online.

    You don't have any idea of what Montana's relationship is with her son, nor of what she was doing with him when she wasn't online.

    As someone who claims to be a feminist, it was fucking laughably ludicrous to slag her off because she spent time on here posting.

    Isn't the whole point of the feminism you espouse to "have it all", or at least have a little bit more?

    Your pov obviously would be that MW and son should be spending every waking hour together, bonding, chilling..

    What sort of feminist believes that empowerment means that your life should revolve around your kids to the exclusion of anything else?

    You made a similar charge against BB. It was nasty and personal. I've got no problems with the nasty and personal attacks, done a few of them in my time, but I always had a consistent line and agenda.

    You have been consistently wrong, and truth to tell, a bit sick. Weird. A bit too ready to defend Gary Glitter and the life choices of other sad middle aged losers who post from Thailand. As you used to.

    One of the things that really pissed me off about Cif was that they banned me and not you.

    They've redeemed themselves a little this week.

    Just a shame that they didn't redeem themselves some months ago.

  53. Rosselini was Lynch's wife? Curiouser and curiouser....

    One of them was involved with Polanski ... Kinski, I do believe.

  54. I cannot believe that my close personal pal BTH would be silly enough to change a name that gave rise to the nickname 'Bitey' to one that would produce 'Jobbie'

  55. Hank - far less dignified than my initial reaction, but all the better for it, in fact. Well put.

    Colin - do not post things like that again. I nearly choked on a left-over roast potato.

  56. thaum-mschin blimey didn't know that about rossellini and lynch..curious it is but I heard something about kinski and polanski...didn't surprise me with polanski's track record so to speak......

  57. Yep, Kinski was Polanski's protegee in the 80s for sure. Although she didn't need much of a leg-up into the industry given her Dad and all.

  58. LOL BB!
    "...she didn't need much of a leg-up.."
    what DO you mean madam?!!?

  59. gandolfo

    I said "leg-up" not "leg-over" :p

  60. Hank,

    have you Forest lot been indulging in voodoo ceremonies to invoke the spirit and skills of Notts Forest 1977-80?

    What's the price for selling your collective souls in order to instill the spirit and skills of Shilton, Burns, Francis, Robertson, Birtles et al into the present squad?

    To come back in the next life as Derby fans?

  61. "To come back in the next life as Derby fans?"

    Sounds like fighting talk to me.

    Nah. Hank has just got a painting in his attic that looks fucking terrible...

  62. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Here's the third:

    3. tangerinedream wrote:

    "it has to be the 1000 comment demolishment (sic) of Jan Moir and Daily Mail snideiness in Charlie Brooker's Gately piece...."

    Other than the fact that 1000 Guardianistas who were in love with Gately, whoever he was, have had their dreams about consensual, erotic sex challenged, along with their belief that you can have sex with whatever tramp that happens to stroll in after a night's boozing at the club, as if HIV was a televison programme, while you're stuffing whatever artificial stimulants
    down your throat in order to achieve a sexual high, which must be very enjoyable except for the fact that you wake up with a body next to you and a long explanation to the police, the
    tabloids and CiF.


    Nothing here that wasn't said by a dozen or more posters on the Brooker thread, so I can't even claim originality.

  63. Yep, I'd say that was pretty vile, Job. As was your "mother" 's explanation of it too. Actually that wasn't so much vile as freaky in a Max Cady kind of way.

    The only post of yours I did save for posterity; here is the extract in question.

    "Now as a committed Christian I've told young bitethehand that while I look upon homosexuality as a carnal sin for which our good Lord will have prepared a suitable place for young Mr Gately, where he will have an eternity to mull over his prodigal ways, although unlike the young man in the New Testament parable, his going in the twinkling of an eye sadly robbed him of the opportunity to repent the foolishness of his youth. As I've told bitethehand so many times, "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out" But more than that I'm fed up with telling bitethehand that he's heading in the same direction if he continues with his lack of respect for the dead, especially that poor Mr Gately. "

    I understand you had an evangelical Christian upbringing, Job. I take it you are no longer a practising Christian? Or are you of the Ian Paisley "wealing and gnarshing of taith" school of Christianity?

  64. While we are on the subject of Max Cady-esque nutters, has anyone checked out some geezer calling himself SilentisSimor on the Pratchett thread? Laugh a minute, that one:

    "I can have you, Terry Pratchett, and your disciples, on your belly-become-snake, and crush your head under my Foot like a grape! I can put an army of snakes into your skin and turn you into a goofy-and-clumsy-looking giraffosaurus! I can turn myself into a Tiger, you into an elefante, and take you down! So, ekùt-mmoi vvu! The key word there was 'would', as in you know it's not realistically speaking; its only conditional that you'd rather be a so and so, 'rising ape' than the fallen angel you confess to be in your implication! I'm here to tell you, you were no angel in the first place! You wish! If you want style, if you want a Megatheory of Language, a Superhuman Philosophy of Literature! Look to one place only! The Holy Bible! For it says:

    'Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.' (Mathew 5:37). "

    And that is just the first bit of the first of 4 or 5 posts in a similar vein. Uhuh... *walks away slowly, whistling*

  65. Dunno about Christianity, BB, but Bitey's 'moral code' seems to be that if he can find a dozen other posters somewhere who succeeed in being more vile and offensive than him, then anything he says or does is perfectly OK. It's a neat trick, but ultimately worthless as a way to behave or live your life.

    FYI - some sociopathic interpersonal traits:
    glib and superficial
    egocentric and grandiose
    lack of remorse or guilt
    lack of empathy
    deceitful and manipulative
    shallow emotions

  66. @BB - stand down for the evening. I'm happy to take up point duty and engage with this idiot fucker...


  67. Can't make up my mind if I want to watch Wallender, Dirty Dancing - Patrick Swayze RIP - or Solaris. Got Solaris on dvd though, so that would be daft. I listen to the soundtrack by a guy called Cliff Martinez almost every morning if I am on the train as it is perfect waking-up music.

    This track in particular is beautiful:

    Don't blow it.

  68. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Here's the fourth:

    4. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "Actually, I won't bother."

    "Mods - delete my post please. Ta. I might not have written anything offensive, but I was sure as hell thinking it..."

    I doubt they will and I doubt you could.

    But your article as "Jane I'm so wonderful a barrister" where you defended both the police and the Crown Prosecution Service despite their failure to prevent the release of a man who had threatened to kill his wife, and who subsequently did exactly that, must have been a low point of editorial decision making in allowing you to write above the line.

    Live with it BeautifulBurnout, sadly Sabina Akhtar didn't.


    Hardly, embarrassing, probably, especially when Rahila Gupta took you to task about it a month later.

  69. scherfig said...

    BTH/Job, your inflated sense of your own importance is still intact, I see. The 'combined forces' of an inconsequential blog and the moderators of Cif (who finally got tired of you) were necessary to silence you? No, I think you can justifiably take all the credit for your own demise.

    With mentions in 66 posts on the UT blog in December alone, any objective analysis would conclude that it's hardly me who considers himself important.

  70. BB,

    I very rarely look at the religious threads but I do wonder. If God and Jesus do exist (and I've always reckoned Jesus would be good to go for a beer with) would they want ANYTHING to do with these nutters who speak in their name?

    Being God, you'd think he could create people who CAN get his message across persuasively.

    When I do think of the afterlife I think ''do I really want to be spending eternity with SilentisSimor and his ilk?''

  71. BTH

    "Oh the delicious irony" to have been forced by your banning to turn to the "united ranks of the untrusted refugees".


    I've been following (but not posted on) the rape and 'honour' crimes threads on & off all day, which has been sufficient to make my blood boil, so haven't looked at the Pratchett one for a while.

  72. BTH, I think your objective analysis is faulty. We don't consider you important - we're ridiculing you. Can you not see that?

  73. I was explaining why the police could do no different, dork. There was no defence of the CPS in there because there is none. They screwed up.

    And much as I respect Rahila Gupta, she got that completely wrong too, as many posters pointed out to her. Still, don't let the truth get in the way of your spite and jealousy now will you?

    And yes. I am a wonderful barrister. I work damned hard and I have a gift for it.

    I frequently prosecute in specialist DV courts, funnily enough.

    I am not surprised at your jealousy though. Many people are jealous of me without understanding who I am and what I have done.

    Unlike the Oxbridge set so beloved of the Graun, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, didn't go to private/public school and had to do it all the hard way. No networking old-school-tie help for me, mate. I got where I am today by being bloody good at what I do.

    End of.

    Now why don't you go and get some vinegar for those chips, mate? :o)

  74. BB silentissimor's a barrel of laughs isn't s/he! did a classic comment the other day on a thread about modern dance "Dance can be dangerous"
    "I know. It's true. Dance is Dangerous, and it's supported by the Holy Scriptures, in the Holy Bible. It says: 'do not dally with danger'. In other words: Dance!"
    silentissimor this is for you!

  75. MsChin - I haven't looked at the dishonour killing thread because I was expecting all the usual racist crowd to turn up and I am enjoying my day too much. I posted on the rape one, though, because I was a tad concerned that the statistics Nick was bandying about didn't tally.

    There is roughly a 50/50 chance of getting a conviction in the Crown Court, so if they are getting 58% convictions on rape, that is doing a tad better than the jury average.

    There is a multitude of reasons why so many rape cases don't get to court though. Prosecutors have to look at the likelihood of getting a conviction before they decide to bring a case. That is not a moral guage, merely a pragmatic legal one. There is no point in wasting public money if there is no chance of getting a conviction out of it at the end of the day, which is sad but I can understand why they do that. Why put the victim through the added hell of having to be cross-examined if you know the case won't succeed in any event? These are all things we need to take into consideration.

  76. BTH

    Re the Sabina Akhtar case, the CPS apologised for failing to charge Malik Mannan when he breached bail; BB was not personally responsible for the charging advice. Greater Manchester Police clearly do have problems in the way they deal with domestic violence / 'honour' cases, as more recent investigations by the IPCC have proved.

  77. gandolpho

    If dance is evil, I am sooo going to Hell. Or I would if I believed in it as such...

  78. MsChin

    Problem is, the police can't charge without the CPS say-so. Their hands are tied. In some cases this is a good thing. But in a lot of cases it isn't. It was the CPS who screwed up by refusing to charge, not the police.

  79. BB

    Felt the same way about both those threads - bound to draw the more extreme form under the woodpile.

    Looked at the CPS violence against women report 2008/09 today, and 16% of unsuccessful prosecutions for rape were because of jury decisions. And about 12% of unsuccessful cases were down to 'unreliable witnesses' which would include vulnerable adults who might lack 'mental capacity' or be so vulnerable that there's no way you would ever wish to put them in court. So a multitude of reasons why cases aren't pursued, as you say.

    And you don't get justice in court; you get law.

  80. MsChin
    "And you don't get justice in court; you get law."

    Sad but true.

  81. scherfig

    #BTH, I think your objective analysis is faulty. We don't consider you important - we're ridiculing you. Can you not see that?#

    He can take it...

    I think your forgetting the full significance of the "Job" monicker; as well as the patience, there's the willingness to endure all manner of humiliations and degradations 'manfully' on account of his devotion to the one true God. I'm thinking of running a book on just what he considers his personal deity to be....

    The traditional Judeo/Christian archetype is a lengthy 200-1; a well known Scandinavian wood-nymph is a generous 7-4; and the all knowing, all-seeing "trying to look all sensitive and 'renaissance'" in a doomed attempt to get laid is odds on at 1-3...

    Place your bets..

    As a matter of fact BTH, I'm kinda feeling quite generous being as I'm out the other side of the traditional "getting suicidally drunk due to it being late in December" theme so let me be the first to wish you a good one..being as you've got yourself banned etc...

    I seriously think I got psychically damaged over the weekend..woke up and checked my fingers for frostbite on Saturday...no patience and no cabs..when the fuck do you learn about that one? DON@T WALK HOME FOR TEN MILES WHEN IT'S SNOWING AND YOU'RE BLADDERED. THE NOVELTY WEARS OFF AFTER 5 AND FROM THEN ON IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PAIN!!

  82. There is something seriously wrong with a judicial system that cannot and does not serve victims who are "vulnerable adults". In other words, those who are either mentally ill or learning disabled. It stinks.

    I would quite like to see a move towards having a victim's advocate. The Crown Prosecutor has a duty to present a case fairly and is not really working on behalf of the victim as such.

    Or have an Instructed Judge along the lines of the French system - someone with investigative powers who can look into all aspects of the case after the charge has been brought.

    If you know a vulnerable witness is likely to screw up in the witness box and, worse, be horribly traumatised by the experience, the perp will get away with it. That cannot be right.

  83. Mschin some years ago i worked for an organisation for people with mental health probs and learning difficulties. A client was raped by a worker it went to court but due to the law it couldn't be deemed rape because according to the law a person with "mental defects" can't consent i.e say yes or no.
    BB maybe you know whether this has been changed. I think the CPS actually brought it to court as a test case, but I left the UK and don't know whether it was actually changed

  84. Hank, how about this guy as a personal deity? Odds 11/5.

  85. That is an appalling case, gandolfo. And yes, the law has changed with the 2003 Sexual Offences Act, where there has to be an affirmative consent. This is controversial in that if a woman is drunk, it can be argued that she cannot reasonably have been consenting unless she said so, which has given rise to much polemic. But I imagine that the same now applies to "mentally defective" people i.e. they have to give actual consent rather than just be "acquiescing" by saying nothing. I think. It isn't my area, so I am not entirely sure.

  86. Heh - I knew that was going to be "Personal Jesus" before I clicked on it, but I wasn't sure which version it would be. :p

  87. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Here's the fifth:

    5. Fencewalker wrote:

    "By the way, Handmuncher, do you think all men are basically Harry Flashman?"


    I admire your cryptics, but this is quite beyond me.

    Care to explain?

    So vile it almost corrupts the mind.

  88. Ya know the funny thing about the debate tonight is that BTH is just whining about the fact that he's got banned from Cif. He deserved to be banned. Should have happened long since. BTH was an abusive fucker, he won't be missed...

    There will be no long-running campaign on Waddya to get BTH reinstated.

    But there should be.

    Just as there was to get me and Monkeyfish, and Woolly to be reinstated.

    And Pikey after that.

    Otherwise you end up with a latte bar in which the usual gang of guardianistas schmooze together while swapping banalities.

  89. BB Yer is was pretty horrendous. The problem is all about informed choice I guess when affermation is involved, so for example, I can give options of two positives "Do you want tea or do you want coffee?" but not necessarily a negative, "Do you want tea, coffee or nothing..." From my experience in the field of LD this is where the crux of the problem lies

  90. gandalfo

    There's a new Mental Capacity Act, which (quoting from DoH summary) is underpinned by a set of five key principles:

    * A presumption of capacity - every adult has the right to make his or her own decisions and must be assumed to have capacity to do so unless it is proved otherwise;
    * The right for individuals to be supported to make their own decisions - people must be given all appropriate help before anyone concludes that they cannot make their own decisions;
    * That individuals must retain the right to make what might be seen as eccentric or unwise decisions;
    * Best interests – anything done for or on behalf of people without capacity must be in their best interests; and
    * Least restrictive intervention – anything done for or on behalf of people without capacity should be the least restrictive of their basic rights and freedoms.

    The Act sets out a single clear test for assessing whether a person lacks capacity to take a particular decision at a particular time. It is a “decision-specific” test. No one can be labelled ‘incapable’ as a result of a particular medical condition or diagnosis. Section 2 of the Act makes it clear that a lack of capacity cannot be established merely by reference to a person’s age, appearance, or any condition or aspect of a person’s behaviour which might lead others to make unjustified assumptions about capacity.

  91. Hank

    You'll just have to call me a hypocritical old cow then.

    Although if you do, I will twat you. :p

  92. And another thing...

    Where IS monkeyfish?

  93. Thanks mschin having a quick look and it seems that this doesn't actually cover consent for interpersonal relationships that is, it's still left to the individual regardless of their disability,which is positive and negative but I'll have to read through it more!
    this is another article if you are interested that outline problems re consent

  94. BeautifulBurnout wrote:

    "And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too."

    Here's the sixth:

    6. PlanG

    "Bitethehand it's just dawned on me what's wrong with you. I can't say it's vexed me or anything but it's now so obvious. You literally don't have sense of humour. That's all it is. That's why you're so consumed with bitterness and petty vendettas."

    I could say that you were very slow to catch on, given that I've been posting here for what, three years, but that would be really cruel. But in one sense you're right. When I read serious posters who all year long post world shattering comments that make me and others sit up and think, why didn't I consider that, and then agonise about whether long held opinions have been right, I can well imagine why you might conclude that I don't have a sense of humour. But believe me only tonight while downing several pints of Fuller's best ESB with almost life long friends, we laughed our socks off at the way The Guardian's invitee accountants are going to take T Blair to the cleaners. I hope.

    Now this one is so vile I'm amazed it didn't burn its way through The Guardian's server.

  95. HankScorpio

    You make a number of points in your earlier post that deserve a response and I'll deal with each separately.

    Let me remind you what it was that I posted about Montana and her son, who incidentally she continually refers to as "the sprog", which I think is hardly the most endearing way of describing your child, being as one of its three meanings is Australian slang for "the thick white fluid containing spermatozoa that is ejaculated by the male genital tract."

    Montana wrote:

    "My white, working class son faces far more obstacles in his future than Malia Obama does in hers. That is what concerns me most."

    To which I replied:

    "I'm sure however that he appreciates the time you spend here as much as we do."

    At which point the united ranks of The Untrusted reacted as if I'd accused her of selling her son to paedophiles. Not that you joined in at the time of course as I think you'd departed CiF by then and the last time I swapped posts with you was back in February.

    And incidentally, the time before that was in January when I posted:

    "HankScorpio welcome back although if I'd missed you I'd have assumed it was for Xmas reasons."

    "You and others are right about the moderation policy - if what appears to be giving moderators a free hand, can be described as a policy."

    Could this have been in response to a period of suspension imposed on you by people at CiF?

    Whatever, I think it was quite gracious on my part and genuinely meant.

  96. gandolfo

    Some police forces have specialist vulnerable victims staff and many have sexual assault referral centres (SARCs) where forensic examination can take place, so reducing the need for the vulnerable person to give evidence. SARCs also provide support services.

    So things have improved in the UK in some respects. Safeguarding adults is very high on the agenda at the moment, fortunately. In the areas I've worked in, co-locating police and safeguarding staff from soc services has meant better understanding of the issues on both sides & more information-sharing, which can be crucial.

  97. Quite a lot of conversation I've missed. The main thing I remember Nastassja Kinski in was Maria's Lovers, although I have to say I remember nothing whatsoever of what it was about.

    My pre-mod is giving me a chance to carry out little experiments in what they'll allow. I posted twice on the Nick Cohen rape thread - once about sexist double standards (if blaming the victim is so terrible, why do Guardian columnists do it when the crime is committed by a woman against her male partner, not thinking of any Jane Andrewses in particular) and one about politics (the familiar New Labour trick of using an emotive issue to justify proposing authoritarian legislation, like Dunblane giving us the banning of firearms, 9/11 giving is laws against taking photos in public, Soham giving us the ISA, and the "sexed-up" epidemic of sex-trafficking giving us the criminalisation of paying for sex - in this case to abolish jury trials and the principal of innocent until proven guilty). The first one was published. The second is nowhere to be seen.

  98. Job

    Disingenuous doesn't even begin to go there. You forgot the bit about suggesting that her son had a problem with alcohol.

    As usual, you lie. You wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit you on the hand. Your Mummy will tell you that you will make the baby Jesus cry if you tell lies.

  99. Anywho, I'm off for the night. School tomorrow. Fraud case. Icky, but could be quite fun.

    Night night all. x

  100. Mschin
    Thanks for the information I really appreciate it, I'm glad that things have improved. I am a bit out of touch as I'm no longer working in that field and frankly in Italy it appears to be years behind in the little social care that is run by the state, the majority of it is in the hands of the catholic church...argh!!

  101. Nighty night BB!!
    and Hi Paddy we haven't met!

  102. gandolfo

    Yep, much of the EU is the same with regard to domestic & sexual abuse offences.

  103. Don't despair kids, help is on its way..........


  104. paddy

    Glad to see that you're getting at least some success from your experiments!

    I see that princessc is in full-on warrior-mode on the Cohen thread.

    Ah well, I have to go to bed (work tomorrow unless I'm lucky & it snows a lot more), so it's goodnight from me.

  105. nice one hank!
    well here you go can't remember dancing like that though all that 80's angst...(I'm a 1965er as well! vintage year!)

  106. night mschin!
    ...blimey pcc in fine form!

  107. Job/BTH

    You made a number of points in your earlier post which deserved a response...

    ...heheh, right. You didn't actually.

    Just so we're clear, btw, I'm not a big fan of paedophiles. Or apologists for paedophiles.

    Now, anyway, BTH, you were saying...


  108. Evening all, great to read all your posts. Thanks to Job for giving an occasional break when I could just scroll through his and think more about the previous comment.


    Do you do that thing where you've got a twenty for a taxi, but think there's no fucking way I'm paying that much? I'll spend it on beer, I'll float home.

    I do, it's not funny for about twenty minutes, I'd agree, about fivel miles in, but you do get home, eventually. Sometimes you even see an amazing sunrise. I made a typo with "fivel", but I'll leave it in, because it does feel like the end of an adventure when you unlock your front door.

    Snowy in Manchester! And the kind of snow you can have snowball fights with, instead of the normal icey sludge that can kill. I love that sound of "bfff!" when a soft snowball hits it's mark. Much better than "aaargh! Ya bastard!"

  109. Fuck me, habib, you and MF are scousers. You could club together and buy a taxi back home with two twenties...

    ...anyway, song time...


  110. Hank,
    "All the pain inside amplified by the
    Fact that I can't get by with my nine to
    Five and I can't provide the right type of life for my family"

    Got a wife and kids in baltimore, jack. I went out for a ride and I never went back
    Like a river that don't know where it's flowing
    I took a wrong turn and I just kept going.

  111. BTH,
    Wasn't too sure it was you at first. Read your stuff, it is you innit?
    Welcome to the 'Bouncy Castle'

  112. Heyhabib,
    You got any Gnarls Berkly ?

  113. Sorry, colin, it's the obvious one, but I likes... a lot.

  114. That'l do for me mate. Thanks.
    You got any Scissor sisters?

  115. For ellymiranda, liked by many, on CiF and here, for some reason.

    And I'll wink at my comrade.

  116. heyhabib,
    Unlike you, son, I am not on the night shift. Thanks for thhe music.

  117. Anyone else think this would have been a funnier crap responce to Cowell et al?
    Maybe it's an age thing...

  118. Funny thing about being away from a conversation on this thread and just reading about it. You haven't got anything much to add, but to agree with the people you have already agreed with. And they are far from in need of any endorsement.

    So you try and think of some serious point that hasn't already been made.

    But they've all been made before and the world rests the same.

    That's my excuse for picking a tune, instead.

  119. For some reason, that kind of thinking led me to 1959.

  120. always worth a bit of hope, though.