04 December 2009

Daily Chat 04/12/09

The Battle of Lund, one of the bloodiest battles in Scandinavian history, took place on this day in 1676, as King Christian V attempted to retake the province of Sk√•ne from the Swedes.  The first edition of The Observer was published in 1791.  The Montreux Casino caught fire from a flare set off during a Frank Zappa concert.  Deep Purple is eternally grateful.  Terry Anderson was released from captivity in Beirut after seven years in 1991.

Born today:  Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881), Samuel Butler (1835-1902), Rainer Maria Rilke (1875-1926), Ronnie Corbett (1930), Horst Buchholz (1933-2003), Chris Hillman, Anna McGarrigle and Dennis Wilson were all born in 1944.

Christians in Lebanon, Syria and Palestine celebrate Eid il-Burbara today.


  1. Seems like Pluck has curled up and died again...

    Getting no comments on any thread now, there's something very Guardian about having a completely shite IT system that breaks regularly.

    Anyone see Brown in PMQs yesterday? You'd think he'd just won a landslide, chipper as you like.

    And also, the whole lot of them were like a whooping pack of public school boys playing some devilishly funny prank on each other, laughing away, happy as larry, enjoying the banter, you really would never guess they were one of the most shamed and repugnant parliaments in history and the country was crumbling around them.

  2. As a selfmademan I am delighted to see in yesterday's thread that someone else remembers Henry Root

  3. Just as I was about to poet the comment not only of the year, but the decade,too :)
    Oh, and Jay, don't get me started about the couple of articles that have gone up about labour all of a sudden becoming class warriors because Myners and Mandy made some tut-tut noises about RBS bonuses. Dime to a dollar says they won't actually do a damn thing. The Polly-esque refusal to admit the horrendous nature of the New Lab project is dispiriting. Yes, the the Tories were and are vile, but that doesn't mean you have to back the repugnant and Tory-lite new Lab...

  4. Mornin' all!

    Just noticed that the graun is offering 'festive wrapping paper designed by celebrities' all next week!

    Its getting more like Hello magazine every day!

    I give up!

  5. They did that wrapper thing at least once before but you need the salary of a Toynbee to bid!

    'The first edition of The Observer was published in 1791.'

    Happy birthday Observer - at least a much truncated version of the paper seems safe for now. As for what the future may bring for the Guardian and we online scavengers, who knows


    Sweet of GMG to suggest that we should join a pay-up club to have the opportunity to talk to Guardian journalist.

  6. There was a problem retrieving comments, we will try again in just a few seconds, or you can click here to manually load all comments
    its all broken,,it was a small game initself just to get this comment box to hang around long enough to type something,,it kept on recycling itself over and over,,and i can't see any comments,,and my avatar has disappeared,,the html widgets dont work and all the good threads get too long for my computer
    now we dont have ,,now that you took the page option away,,the best commenter thread has a depressing number of voices insisting the emperor
    is 'so elegantly attired' and its midnight anyeahbutno like hummpph

    disgruntled, Vancouver

    have a nice day,,

    hhmm once bitten twice shy,, better clipboard that before i hit 'post comment'

    NewsSport blah blahCommunityJobs

    Sorry - we haven't been able to serve the page you asked for
    You may have followed a broken link, an outdated search result, or there may be an error on our site. If you typed in a URL, please make sure you have typed it in correctly. In particular, make sure that the URL you typed is all in blah blah
    WXYZContact us
    If you require further blah blahaddress: userhelp@guardian.co.uk
    License/buy blah blah Join our dating site todayguardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2009

    that will be $10 ,,thank you

  7. "Oh, and Jay, don't get me started about the couple of articles that have gone up about labour all of a sudden becoming class warriors because Myners and Mandy made some tut-tut noises about RBS bonuses."

    Hysterical isnt it, after 12 years, 12 whole years, labour have finally decided that the Bullingdon boys deserve a bit of mockery and that the banks should perhaps be a bit more reasonable.

    The election campaign will actually be truly revolting, Labour will start announcing all the things they should have been doing for the last 12 years, ie policies for the many rather than the few, like their recent rambling on electoral reform.

    Labour as the party of the people is a bit of a hard sell these days, mass privatisations, lowering of CG tax, lowering of inheritance tax, cosying up to hedge funds, private equity, the CBI...

    Most normal people just couldnt stand the shame, the indignity of being so openly opportune and dishonest in front of an audience of 60million. They dont bat an eyelid. They were in the Commons wednesday having an absolute ball.

  8. Unrelated, but I remeber on a previous thread here someone was having difficulty sharing an audio file. I think you can do that with Google wave (er, Google it for an explanation)and share comments on it in real time too, I have some invites for the closed beta of Google wave so let me know if you'd like one...

  9. Brilliant cartoon by Steve Bell today, too.

  10. Related to the Bullingdon Boys, did anyone else read Fraser Nelson's heartfelt defence of those poor ickle Etonians who must suffer the indignities of class taunts by the cloth cap wearing, bitter drinking Labourites in Westminster?

    Westminster genuinely is a fairyland isn't it?

    You have Labour who now think they are Nye fucking Bevan's rightful heirs and Tories who believe they are a discriminated minority due to their humble Etonian origins and inverse snobbery.

  11. Ay, your grace, and top post from thetrashheap:
    "The problem isn't Eton as much as it's a group of mates. The idea a group of school mates are going to have three of the top positions in the country is ridiculous."
    Nelson's bleating about 'it's not their fault they're educated' seems predicated upon a mysterious belief that Tory HQ was unable to locate anybody capable of finding their arse with both hands and a map without the benefit of a top-hat-and-tails education. Now that's a cabal...

  12. I reckon the late great Douglas Adams had the right idea, anyone who actually wants to rule, shouldn't be allowed to!

  13. Blimey, what on earth was Bitey saying last night to get so many deletions? Anyone have an archive?


    (now a juice bar)

    Tears actually came to my eyes when I read that.

  14. Now, admittedly, I've let out a small bleat re: "the list" meself, but that's on the basis that Oxbridge is not socially reflective and its graduates are overly predominant in public life. it would be specious to argue otherwise.

    But the question then is, what do you want to do about that?

    If it's simply to criticise, fair enough.

    But if you actually want to address that social 'unreflectiveness' (meh) and move O&C towards a 9:1 state:private make-up, doesn't the blanket condemnation of all things Oxbridge (rather than focussing on the cabal element) run the risk of actually preventing that? By discouraging state pupils, particularly those from the most disadvantaged sections of society, from applying?

    It's maybe not a popular viewpoint, I know... Because there's a sense that it's unreasonable to defend O&C in any way - but I think only elements of it are indefensible and that should be the focus.

  15. Nah, thauma, the best bit is definitely:
    "In those days she was working as a cigarette girl at the Plaistow Regal (unlike me she started with every advantage in life, her father being a turf accountant). "

  16. Good sporting posts by habib and billythemule on the commenter thread.

  17. aaaaw, heyhabib, you sweetie...

  18. is it just my computer or is the cif busted again
    (for a second time this morning),,?

    the first time it offered to help resolve the problem

    this time it just said "bollocks"

    Service Unavailable

  19. 3p4 bust again!

    Has anyone else seen the quote in BTH's profile?

    It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife.....

  20. Philippa, my point to Rowenna in the Stupid White Heterosexual Male thread (where The List first appeared) wasn't that anything should be done to reconstitute the make-up of the student bodies at O & C, but simply that it defies belief that so much of the journalistic 'talent' in the entire country comes out of just two universities.

    Admittedly, I made only the barest of starts to the non-Oxbridge hacks & contributors list, but from memory there weren't two journalists from the same non-Oxbridge uni. One from Reading, one from Bristol, one from Bath etc., etc.

    The difference is astonishing.

  21. rapideddie - oh yes, quite with you on the over-representation 'post-uni'. it's just that it strikes me that representation 'at uni' is something that needs a stern look...

    somebody's planning a tunnel under the atlantic in which trains will travel at up to 5000 (five thousand) mph in a vacuum. Trains may be able to travel that fast, but can humans? or does the vacuum mean we wouldn't feel it?

    i sense a truly dreadful disaster movie coming up, whatever the reality...

  22. *crying with laughter*

    Someone on the Ciffies thread has pointed out a late runner in the best thread stakes: Pamela Stephenson's column today.

    Best comment so far:

    This must serve as evidence that the clampdown on MP's expenses is working, a few months ago Jacqui Smith wouldn't have contemplated writing to Pamela Stevenson.

  23. That Pamela Stephenson thread is a classic in the making. Get over there!

  24. Without wishing to start an argument or nuffink, just how busted is the apocalyptic environmental flush?

    You see, I'm one of those who happens to believe that human activity *does* create changes in the climate. It's just that every time I read Monbiot or that guy who's counting down 83 freelance cheques till the end of the planet, I get the urge to buy a house with a long front drive and line it with patio heaters.

    It's not the content of the debate, so much of the tone of it, that's dismayed me so much. From the first IPCC report onwards, certain environmentalists seem to have become drunk with the power of apocalypse.

    Now, after having hectored, vilified and berated, it turns out - surprise, surprise - that things are rarely neat and never simple.

    I genuinely could see the end of Monbiot's five and half minute self-imposed travel ban coming. He sounded so dismayed at Climategate and you could see him shrugging his shoulders and saying "Ah fuck it. I'm off to Canada." Garman for two weeks in the Canaries next?

    I wonder will the hair-shirtism and for-us-or-agin-us debate be replaced by something more moderate and inclusive? Which, for me, is where the debate should have been all along.

  25. Dear Ms Thaumaturge

    Can I first say how becoming I think that outfit? It puts me in a mind of a 'therapist' I used to visit in the Leamington Spa district (it was a handy arrangement, as I could leave Mrs Selfmade to improve herself in a Shakespearean sense in Stratford-upon-Avon whilst I had my stress relieved at remarkably reasonable rates). Could you be related?

    I am glad that you were amused about my reference to the juice bar (although frankly I can see nothing amusing about it myself). But perhaps I am out of sorts. To be honest, it's been an up and down sort of a day, mainly because I have recently got out of my depth with a DIY project. I wonder if any readers of the "blog" can help?

    As a self made man, the subject of DIY is very close to my heart since in a very real sense (as the 'sociologists' would say) I would not exist had I not made myself, myself (if you see what I mean). So far as my domestic arrangements are concerned, these are not really anyone else's business, for all that they have been the subject of ribald (and, I may say, ill-informed) speculation in the Weston-super-Mare Gazette. It will, I hope, suffice to say that Mrs Selfmade is well-equipped with grouting tools and clear mastic, and when I tell her to 'do it herself' she uses these to good, if noisy, effect. But enough of this casual banter. My question for anyone reading these columns, is this. For some time now I have been wanting to make a scale model of that well-known intellectual Ms Waltz. My thought is to use for this purpose a collection of cheese rinds I have been amassing since 1970. Admittedly some of these are now in a parlous state of decay, but I think you will agree that given the subject matter this need not be an insuperable problem. I have already sculpted the head of my creation and I think with some success. It is true that my former newsagent-cum-taxi driver, MrPikeBishop, who called round to discuss my then ongoing quest to join the Rotary Club, described it as 'monstrous' but in the circumstances I think this suggests I have achieved a reasonable facsimile. I should add that Mr Bishop was at the time in eye-line of the mirror (inherited from Mrs Selfmade's mother, and the source of some friction between us) that adorns my drawing room, so it is possible that he was referring to something else. You will understand that I do not wish to spell out the full implications of that remark for fear that my social aspirations may be well and truly b*****ed (as The Thunderer would put it). Anyway, to return to the topic in hand. My problem now is how to render into sculpture the ego of my chosen subject. Whilst the material of rotting cheese seems well-suited to my artistic vision, you need to be aware that I have but a few pounds (or kilogrammes as we must now say, thanks to "Mr" Brown) available. Will this be enough? If not, is there some substance that might equally well (or better, for I am not proud) serve my purpose? This is a matter of some import because I am undertaking this project as part of my ongoing studies 'under' Mr Jeremy James with a view to joining the Philistines Club in due course.

    Of course I realise that this column does not purport to be a free source of DIY advice (and, if it were, the title 'the untrusted' would hardly inspire confidence!) so I underake to donate £5 to a charity of the choice of whoever comes up with the most helpful advice.

  26. Mr Selfmade,

    I propose leaving the fungal growths on said dairy products to make their own statement, leaving it up to the hyphae to mould their own interpretation of your subject matter......

  27. PS If you find my mycetogenetic suggestion the most helpful please donate the £5 to the RSPB, earmarking the funds for mustelid pest control.

  28. Well well well...


    and here's me sceptical as fuck and 'pale yellow'

  29. Dear Dot (if I may)

    Thank you for your advice but we have been overtaken by events and the cheese has had to go on the back burner because I’m afraid there is more bad news at this end – Mrs Selfmade’s back has gone! What’s to be done?

    As a self made man, I tend to think that the best thing for the bad back brigade is to take two aspirin and pull themselves together (important, I will concede, to do this in the right order). But what a life time in business (import-export, as it happens, but the principles are the same) has taught me is that if someone wants to set up with a brass plate offering remedies for all and sundry then good luck to them. What, after all, is a doctor other than a licensed medical professional? This is what so many people do not realise.

    Aside from a bout of shingles when holidaying in Tenby (this was in the late 50s, when it had still not been discovered by the ‘in crowd’) I’ve been blessed with good health all my life I’m happy to say, the legacy, I believe, of my father’s insistence on a daily programme of Swiss callisthenics during my formative years. Mrs Selfmade, though, has been rather less fortunate and following a particularly inelegant parturition was for many years a martyr to her left knee, so I can be said to know whereof I speak. The ‘vet’ could do nothing for her, and so on my advice she consulted a professional masseur. Unfortunately there was some confusion as to the nature of the service he was offering and a certain amount of embarrassment ensued. However, it certainly got her on her feet again (to be honest, she squealed like a scalded cat) and so her understandable chagrin was a small price to pay. I should say that this was many years ago, and things may be very different now.

    So my question now is, can anyone recommend a good (and not too expensive) osteopath in the Weston-super-Mare area? Or would I, all things considered, be better to seek out an undertaker? I hate to seem morbid, but there is no point in being too sentimental about these things and the fact is that she’s had a good innings, and the whole situation is taking its toll on me given that it is I who has to zip her into and out of her surgical corset. You can imagine the effect this is having on my morale, for all that I’m irrepressible by nature.

    PS, in the circumstances I will not be remitting a fiver to the RSPB. Your advice may have been sound but since I am no longer in a position to take it I do not feel bound by my offer. You may say that this is not your fault, but it is not mine either. We are both playthings of the gods, I'm afraid (or at least Mrs selfmade's lower verterbrae, which comes to much the same thing).

  30. Selfmade, (you may)

    I'm afraid I have no knowledge of Weston-Super-Mare, so cannot help with your most recent dilemma, I do however suggest that the cheese doesn't go on the back burner: you'll never get the smell out of the kitchen curtains.

    No hard feelings on the £5, I shall donate my time and sharp-shooting skills to the RSPB instead....

  31. Dear Dot

    You are a generous soul indeed but I am alarmed that you have no knowledge of Weston-super-Mare. Can I extend a cordial invitation to you to visit us? Mrs Selfmade will undoubtedly be able to rustle up some scones, whilst I will regale you in the drawing room with stories from my days in import-export and ply you with Glenfiddich, so there will be something for everyone, regardless of taste. You do not say whether you are male or female (not that it matters - it's open sesame here) but if you were planning to stay the night it might have a bearing. Let me explain. Master selfmade is temporarily back in the parental home, and frankly he has gone badly off the rails. The last thing I would want would be for him to come sneaking into your room at night unwanted (and I can hardly think it would be any other way - the lad is of unprepossessing appearance, at best (he takes after his mother) and recent setbacks have left him with a condition which baffles the dermatologists). Of course if you are of the female persuasion it would be academic since his interests lie firmly elsewhere, as his skill in ice-skating testifies (he reached county standard).

    So in anticipation I'll pencil you in for the 15th inst and ask Mrs Selfmade to get weaving on the scones. You'll have to take us as you find us, of course - we have rather fallen out of the habit of entertaining following an embarassing faux pas at the golf club when the Captain went to shake Mrs Selfmade's hand and she jumped to a wholly unwarranted conclusion (she is not au courant with contemporary social norms and I fear it is too late for her to learn). I will not burden you with the contretemps that followed, but suffice it to say that my membership was revoked and we tend to keep ourselves to ourselves these days, although I still manage to attend the annual regimental dinner.

    Your friend
    PS no need to worry about the cheese situation. My reference to the back burner was metaphorical - sorry if I alarmed you.

  32. Monkeyfish:

    So the rich have the biggest carbon footprints in the UK, do they - who would have guessed? More outstanding investigative journalism from the BBC.

    And it looks from the photo as if Cameron has given up riding the bike to the HofC and is now commuting in by dogsled. Do you reckon there’s a skidoo following behind him just out of shot carrying a change of clothes and all his important “Leader of the Opposition” papers?

    While I’m asking questions, is there anyone around with a degree in Advanced Mathematics and knowledge of, like, REALLY big numbers who can help me get a handle on just how much of our money Brown and his mates have pissed away to their other mates in the banking “community” to prop up the bloated capitalist system which would otherwise have collapsed under the weight of its internal contradictions? because I tried to work it out and now my head hurts.

  33. Dear selfmade,

    An evening of Glenfiddich and scones sounds delightful, unfortunately I shall have to decline due to other previously agreed to social functions (involving copious amounts of ethanol and Monty Python DVDs, but I shall have to grin and bear it).

    I do hope I haven't caused offence, please give MrsSelfmade my best and if MasterSelfmade is keen on ice skating and not good with rails may I suggest that perhaps some sort of Scalextrix track would be a good Christmas present?



  34. That pigeon has done it again. Gives me a shout then buggers off to his pole dancing class.
    I'm not going to bite.

  35. I've told you before Musty, it's not the biting that's the problem: it's the licking!

  36. Dotty,
    Like you, I haven't the faintest idea what you are on about.

  37. Well, then that makes three of us!

  38. Nice that our avatars are back though innit?

  39. Nice that our avatars are back though innit?

  40. And now that makes three of you.........

  41. well, it's friday evening so I'm off to the pub. that's a pre-emptive strike in case i decide giving the world a piece of my drunken mind later on...

  42. Dear Dot (note to Colin - I do think it is disrespectful to call her Dotty, but I may be old-fashioned),

    I am naturally disappointed but it may be for the best. There's simply no way of knowing whether Mrs selfmade's back will be up to scone-making by the 15th anyway. But regard it as an open offer (thursdays are generally out, though, as that is Mrs Selfmade's day for a shampoo and set at 'A Cut Above' on the Bristol Road if anyone wants a none-too-pricey salon in Weston).

    You have certainly not caused any offence, but your scalextric solution is, I fear, off-beam. We gave the lad one some years ago and, in retrospect, I think that what he did with the elecrical transformer may lie at the root of his problems. Certainly it was that point that he started sewing sequins to his disco pumps and listening to crooners at all hours of the day and night.

    Your friend
    PS I am unsure of the etiquette on these 'boards' as I believe you young folk call them, so if anyone finds these missives unwelcome just let me know and I will desist. It would not be the first time in a long and chequered career that I have bored people rigid (indeed an incident at the yachting Club in Malta in the late 60s made headlines internationally, as older readers will no doubt recall) so no offence will be taken.

  43. Selfmade,
    If Dotty is a woman I very much doubt that she has been one for very long.

  44. Dear Selfmade,

    Thank you for your kind standing invitation, and apologies if my mention of a certain electricity based pastime brought up painful memories.

    With regard to colin, he has called me far worse, although I confess I may have inadvertently accused him of partaking of the hallucinogenic chemicals extruded from the dermis of certain Amphibia in the past, so perhaps he can be forgiven...

    With kind regards,


  45. andysays,

    if you check out the Diarmid Weir thread on the bankers, Tim Worstall (who I think is a business correspondent for the Graun) has explained it's not bankers but traders who are the big money earners.

    He then goes on to say it's like a big poker game and the skills they have should be paid well.

    So in essence, our economy is an enormous poker game being played by faceless fuckers with the chips being paid for by us. And when they blow all the chips, the Govt bails them out with more chips...paid for by us!!

    If that's not a reasonable, efficient, responsible way to run an economy then call me a communist...

  46. ...and then again, perhaps not!

  47. Selfmade

    Comedy gold. Please stick around for as long as Mrs Selfmade can spare you.

    Hello andy, how's it going? Saw you passing through the other day but my focus was elsewhere...

    @Duke - thought you'd be glued to the World Cup draw. Keep everything crossed for us (-;

  48. Hank,

    this is when it hurts the most. It really, really, really hurts.

    It's like when the coolest lad in your primary class is handing out invites to his birthday party and leaves you out. That aching sense that you didn't do enough to warrant an invite.

    And of course I'll be keeping an eye on England, hopefully there's a pot malfunction and you get Germany, Brazil and Italy ;)

  49. There's been a lot of those birthday parties recently, hasn't there, mate?

    Just been watching a cracking programme about the 1974 World Cup, the first one I remember so obviously the best, even though, or maybe because, England weren't there.

    If anyone's stuck for a Xmas present idea for me, I'd like a DVD compiling the highlights of the Dutch national side between 74 and 78, ta. I could have been Johnny Rep, but I had a paper round.

  50. 13D:

    “it's not bankers but traders who are the big money earners”

    Well apparently financial advisors to the Treasury, including Credit Suisse which is, like, a bank, have been paid a total of £107m to “advise” the govt. how to give our money away.

    Sorry, that should read “how to save the world banking system and make a shrewd financial investment for the future”.

    The total figure is £131bn, or £131,000,000,000, which by my reckoning is about £2000 for every single person living in the UK.

    “If that's not a reasonable, efficient, responsible way to run an economy then call me a communist...”

    You’re a communist.

    So am I as it happens, and so should be every sentient person in the country if they realised what was going on. Unfortunately most of the news coverage today will be about the fucking World Cup draw, which I can’t help but think is ever so slightly less important.

    Hi Hank, good to see you, however briefly. No time to stick around right now, but, like Arnie, I’ll be back…

  51. Ha, it's only communists who think that the World Cup draw isn't the big story of the day. Scottish communists are especially suspect on this question.

  52. Hank,

    I believe Holland 74 to be the coolest side ever to appear at any World Cup finals- here's a great website devoted to them.

    Too young to remember 74, but my Dad went for the Scotland games and brought back loads of brilliant WC pennants which I still have and are not going to be sold. Ever.

    andysays, PeterGuillam has made a great point that the propaganda in the 70's and early 80's was that the country 'was being held to ransom' by the unions for which in essence was a few quid.

    Look at who's holding us to ransom now. Have you heard the Tories condemn them?

  53. Now the USA have got England, I assume that if Obama insists England throw the game they'll bend over backward to accomodate his wishes?

  54. RapidEddie,

    I hope you don't mind me cutting and pasting your comment from the Pamela Stephenson ''my husband cracks one off 20 times a day'' article. It has to be saved for posterity:

    For someone to masturbate 20 hours a day, they would have to wake up wanking, shower wanking and breakfast wanking. They would have to wank on the bus to work, wank at work, wank in meetings, wank in Starbucks at lunchtime, wank on the bus home, wank from the bus stop to the front door, wank at dinner, wank at the movies, wank at the dentists, wank in Tesco, wank in Harrods and wank in McDonald's.

    They would have to wank in the car, wank on the train and wank on the plane. They would have to wank at weddings and wank at funerals. Wank at Christmas, wank at Easter and wank all over Halloween. They would have to wank while the doctor treated them for Repetitive Strain Injury.

    And they'd still only get 4 hours sleep a day.

    I'm surprised the wife didn't notice sooner.

  55. Hmm, a close reading of Cif must surely have convinced you by now, your Grace, that it's the Caledonian mafia who have sold our birthright for a mess of porage.

    I see trouble ahead though. Me and PrezzieD might not be on speaking terms come mid-June.

    I assume that Montana's footballing heart will be in the right place.

  56. England, USA, Algeria and Slovenia. Not the Group of Death but not a walkover either.

    I'm guessing Charlize Theron's not a big footie fan btw.

  57. Dear Mr Scorpio

    Thank you for your kind words. There is no need to worry about Mrs Selfmade's needs. These are adequately catered for by a glass of Harvey's Bristol Cream and a DVD of Midsomer Murders. To be honest, it's no secret that I am thinking of trading her in for a younger model. I've got my eyes set on Ms Waltz. Having read her letters to the Manchester Guardian she strikes me as a charming lady, full of the milk of human kindness and refreshingly free of prejudice. Thia latter may be of some importance given that I am thinking of converting to Islam. It's a no-nonsense form of religion and given the lamentable decline of the Church of England (into which I was baptised, at St. John the Lesser in Turnip Street E1) it seems the only option. I must confess that having been out of the dating game for some decades I am a little nervous - do you think (as a man of the world) that she would entertain courtship from one who looks to Mecca?

    I will look forward to your advice. In the meantime I must record my astonishment at Mr Stoat's insinuation that Dot has recently undergone a 'sex change'. She is a dear friend of mine (and has kindly agreed to visit for whisky and scones on 15th december) so I am sure that I would have noticed.


  58. Tell you a little story Hank,

    in the run up to the 1998 world cup, Blair was asked if Scotland were to play England in the World Cup final who would he support.

    Through his shit eating grin he admitted he would prefer England to win. That's when he became one of your lot.

    Brown claiming Gascoigne's goal against Scotland in Euro 96 was one of his favourites was also a loathsome, slimy attempt to drum up a few votes as well.

    You're welcome to them ;)

  59. Mr Selfmade - how jolly to see you on the UT.

    Don't think you'll have much of a chance with Waltz though, I think she's gay and I don't think "one who looks to Mecca" would really be her cup of tea and you also possess those annoying dangly bits.

  60. If it's no secret that you're thinking of trading her in for a younger model, Mr Selfmade, it's no wonder the poor wretch is hitting the sherry. You're obviously a bit of a catch, as my dear departed Grandmama would have it, so Mrs Selfmade can only conclude that it will all be downhill from here.

    I would ask you to consider the humane option of embracing Islam in a thorough-going manner, retaining Mrs Selfmade for domestic duties, engaging Miss Waltz as a means to encourage Mrs S to raise her bedroom game, and adding Miss MAM to the harem to school the others in the feminine virtues of humility, reticence and empty headedness.

    I know from bitter experience that there are very few Darcys, much less Miss Bennets, to be found on the linedancing circuit. And the AA dating scene is not quite as glamorous as Mr Cage and Miss Shue would have it.

  61. Evening all

    I've inherited another 14 yr old. Poor sod. One of my lad's school friends. His mum has gone into a crisis centre cos she has mental health issues and his dad has agreed to take his little brother but not him.

    We had him staying last night, and the soash have asked if we can keep him over the weekend too. I don't mind at all cos he seems like a really nice lad. I feel like head-butting his father though...


    The older I get the more I realise that my family was the dysfunctional one because we all loved and cared about each other.

  62. Oh - those that wanted to know what got BTH's comments deleted (and my responses to them) - a really nasty diatribe about gays, drugs and sex in relation to Stephen Gately, and further shite about 15 yr old boys and their school teachers.

    The guy is seriously fuxx0rd in the head.

    And good evening Mr Selfmade. So pleased to make your acquaintance. Time we had a bit of class round here.


  63. You're a trouper, BB. Nice one.

    I saw the ref upthread to BTH having a stream of posts deleted and wondered if he might have been banned as a result. You'll be smacked about the gob to learn that he does in fact still have full posting rights.

    I also came across his comment, the last before the series of deletions iirc, where he stated that me, MF and WML were banned for being nasty to the moderators.

    Interesting post on a number of levels. How close is he to the mods/Cif staffers? Why is he impervious to the wrath of the mods? How does he get away with making unfounded personal attacks on fellow posters, both A and BTL, which would, and have, seen others banned?

    Actually, those three questions are all one question really. One question which Seaton would do well to address if he cared about consistency and integrity.

  64. UFO thread alert. Could be good.

    BB, best of the luck with the new temporary member of the family. You have a heart the size of AllyF nominations x 10 on the Ciffy thread.

  65. BB, the place is infested with lawyers. The only way is up.

  66. Hank,

    I think you'll find that because BTH has defended Brooks, Barbara Ellen and the other crackpot feminist articles on CiF he has what in Monoply is termed a 'Get out of Jail free card.'

  67. Re: BTH. I remember a post where he complimented Matt Seaton on something and Matt replied that he liked him too, or some such nonsense. All a bit chummy anyway. I wonder if they do, in fact, know each other IRL?

    Re my new lodger - well, it keeps my lad happy to have someone here so it's win-win really. I would be quite happy for him to stay longer if necessary, but as I am not an official foster carer they prolly wouldn't let me do that really.

  68. #So the rich have the biggest carbon footprints in the UK, do they - who would have guessed? More outstanding investigative journalism from the BBC.#

    Nope Andy the point is more that..

    They do all the holier than though AGW preaching when they're the biggest offenders thereby confirming their status as major fuckin hypocrites. Although that's hardly news either.

    They're the ones caling for more use of public transport etc. Who do you they have in mind as passengers? Their kids? Their missus/ husband? Like fuck they do?

    Anyway..why do their houses use more energy? Do they need bigger houses? Do they have more kids? And why aren't they using solar panels and recycling their piss or whatever it is they're wanting the rest of us to do?

    How're you anyway?

  69. Kudos to billythemule on the Commenter of the Year thread btw. Like him, I cannot believe the support that Imogen has got on there. Perfectly inoffensive but that's not enough, surely, on Cif? I've learned precisely nothing from reading her many posts, other than that there is such a thing as urolagnia. And I was happier in my innocence on that, tbh.

    Anyway, here's my list, cos I'm sure you've all been on tenterhooks:

    hideandseeker - for enlightenment
    orwellwasright and ellis - for their passionate integrity and perseverance
    PeterGuillam - for writing what I would write
    Monkeyfish - (obviously, and RIP also)
    BB - if only I could vent my anger as eloquently and as restrained, I would never have been banned
    Princess - likewise
    WheatFromChaff - a worthy foe
    Montana - great job here, a good and loyal friend
    BW, Duke and RapidEddie - for lightening the mood

    If you all ask nicely, I'll do the other chart later...

  70. Hank,

    just out of interest and I may be completely wrong here, but have you been engaging in some 'donkey' related activities on the CiF thread?

  71. Ha, Ha! Just as I press post, Hank makes mention of aforementioned mule.

  72. Just popped in to say Hi andy!

    And salutations selfmademan - is your other half whiteaintright?

    [Pops out, doffs cap to Dot and Colin for adding to the gaiety of nations]

  73. Nope, Duke, not me. I've got my suspicions, and I agree with what Billy has said, as well as PeterBracken. Although Peter would do well to learn to spell "viciously" before pontificating on the linguistic abilities of others.

    I haven't posted on Cif for a couple of months at least. I find I sleep better now, and I worry less about whether I am consuming conspicuously at the right shops.

  74. Did I miss andy?

    Hi andy!! o/

    Hank - venting my wrath while keeping my cool is all part of the job. You don't get far in my line of work if you tell the judge he's a fuckwit. Tempting though it is.

  75. Hank,

    Cheers for the, what we call in Glasgow, ''Menshie'' in your list above.

    Now as for that other list you've tantalised in front of us, would this be a list of commenters you can't stand?

    I hope so.

    I'll be reading it in the morning as I am now off to get 'Jan Leemin' down the pub.

    Regards to all.

  76. That draw in full:

    Group A: South Africa, Mexico, Uruguay, France

    Group B: Argentina, Nigeria, South Korea, Greece

    Group C: England, United States, Algeria, Slovenia

    Group D: Germany, Australia, Serbia, Ghana

    Group E: Netherlands, Denmark, Japan, Cameroon

    Group F: Italy, Paraguay, New Zealand, Slovakia

    Group G: Brazil, North Korea, Ivory Coast, Portugal

    Group H: Spain, Switzerland, Honduras, Chile

  77. selfmademan, your instructive contributions are most welcome here, but I wonder if recycling old posts from Cif is quite the done thing when one appears on a new blog (I recognize several posts/comments/phrases from way back). Given your extensive life experience and your previous success in the import/export business, I am sure that you have the ability and the wisdom to react to the burning issues that crop up on this blog from time to time. If so, there are undoubtedly many posters here who could benefit from your advice if you can be 'topical'.

    On a more serious? note, bth's sustained Cif attack on this blog and personal attacks on individuals here warrants some response even though we probably should just ignore him. I didn't catch most of his deleted comments last night, but in the spirit of the archivist, I saved an early one. So here it is:

    it has to be the 1000 comment demolishment of Jan Moir and Daily Mail snideiness in Charlie Brooker's Gately piece....

    Other than the fact that 1000 Guardianistas who were in love with Gately, whoever he was, have had their dreams about consensual, erotic sex challenged, along with their belief that you can have sex with whatever tramp that happens to stroll in after a night's boozing at the club, as if HIV was a televison programme, while you're stuffing whatever artificial stimulants down your throat in order to achieve a sexual high, which must be very enjoyable except for the fact that you wake up with a body next to you and a long explanation to the police, the tabloids and CiF.

    But not to worry 'cause after you're dead no number of posters will support you.

    To me that's fairly disturbing, but really nothing to do with us. On the other hand, why does he have such an obsession with this blog and refer to it so frequently on Cif? Should we ignore it or address it?

  78. I say ignore it on CiF but keep talking about it on here, until he grows some and has the cojones to address the people like you, Hank and Monkeyfish directly on here. It is snidy and snake-like to make snarky comments about people who, because of their bannz0rd status on a forum, have no right of reply.

  79. BB - smiling courteously and nodding attentively to immoral tax-evading rich bastards is part of my job, as is passing them a tissue to dry their eyes as they expiate their sins by regaling me with tales of how being abandoned to a wet nurse justifies their psychotic egotism.

    I keep it bottled up at work, and let rip on here at the expense of well-meaning idiots who think that all the world needs is to share a Coke.

    I don't need to recite, again, my contempt for the concept of "being nice to people". It's a bourgeois fraud, and it underpins the system that many of us on here claim to despise.

    I find it ludicrous, but telling, that there are so many reccs on the "Best Poster" thread for bland, inoffensive, nice posters who talk a lot but say remarkably little.

    There are a few I could pick out here but for the moment I'll just mention hermionegingold. What the fuck does she have to say of any value? She always posts as soon as a thread is open with some smartarse, cynical one-liner, which adds nothing to the debate. She never gets involved in the argument downthread because that would involve a little knowledge. She is, as MF said, a goalhanger, an attention-seeker.

    Much as I dislike waltz, MAM and others, at least they can engage in arguments. HG just snipes.

    And snipers are cowards.

  80. scherf - bth is a creepy weirdo and should be ignored imo. He will be most annoyed that there were so many recommendations on the best commenter thread for people who are regulars on here, so i expect his pathetic little jibes about the UT will continue - but who cares? the blokes a tosser.

  81. Ignore it scherfig, When we get attacked over there, people visit and some seem to like what they read and hang around.

    The only exception is when individuals are attacked beause they post on UT.

    I really don't understand what its problem is with us really, except that we can say what we really think about it here (unlike on Cif).

  82. My dear friends (I think I can call you this),

    There is so much to respond to here. First of all let me disabuse Mr Moore of the idea that my other half is 'whitenotright'. In fact, even from this thread, my other half is clearly well-known to many 'posters' here and was revealed in the late, lamented (?) phone box some months ago. Young AlisdairCameron claims to know my identity on the basis that a post from me went out under my (other) cifname. Well, he may know my identity (and if so is sworn to secrecy) but not in that way - he is probably thinking of the poster called 'TheLord' who did indeed inadvertently reveal himself as a well-known cif poster. But it was not me.

    If anyone is remotely interested, I invite guesses as to my other cif identity, although I do not guarantee to confirm or deny those suggestions. Crossword readers looking at this thread will have a clue of sorts, albeit very tangential. As always a £5 payment to a charity of choice is offered to anyone who gets the right answer.

    Finally, speaking now as a selfmademan, I take the point that Ms Waltz may be beyond me, as the Pixie suggests, but in that case in view of Miss Burnout's interest in a 'bit of class' could I invite her to join me for an aperitif? I have long been an admirer or hers and with Mrs Selfmade on the way out (it pains me to say this, but facts must be faced) I think the time has come for me to 'branch out'. What do I have to offer a fruity young human rights lawyer, you may ask? Well, a lifetime of experience in import-export for one thing, and a distinguished military career (I rose to the rank of Private in the 15th Foot and Mouth) for another. If these credentials fail to impress then my name is .... well, what?

    Your friend
    PS - Mr Scorpio - joking aside, Mrs Selfmade is partial to a 'bit of rough' (she is herself incorrigably middle class, being the daughter of a turf accountant) so if you ever find yourself down Weston way, drop me a line. It would greatly assist me to be relieved of duties which, at my age, are frankly becoming burdensome.

  83. Floats like a butterfly...kicks like a mule

    someone's upsetting the applecart at poster of the year

  84. Peter Guilliam! You are selfmademan and I would like the fiver donated to Kids Company please - ta. :o)

  85. Dear Mr Fig (or Scher, if I may)

    You are quite right to pull me up for recycling and my only defence is that Mrs Selfmade has recently 'gone green'. Whether this is a reflection to her commitment to the environment or simply an advanced case of gangrene is anyone's guess.

    But that you spotted my recycling implies a level of familiarity with my oeuvre that both surprises and flatters me.

    Your friend,


  86. anne, BB, sheff, ignoring the weirdo sounds sensible. I don't post on Cif any more, so it's up to you guys, but he does get very personal about people here. On the up-side, it does direct people here, on the down-side he gives a very false picture of this place. Anyway, up to you.

  87. Being nice to people a bourgois fraud? Depends on the people surely?

    Certainly I would not be nice to a billionaire banker if I met one but thats very unlikely and I wouldn't be nice to the idiots who think they have a right to our money.

    Its just that I can't be bothered to be nasty to them either takes too much energy! Mind you my 'coldly polite' can usually get the message across.

    However its the attitudes and actions of these people that need attacking, not the people. Its the idea that problems arise because bankers are nasty and if we replace them with nice one ones our problems would be solved that is the real bourgeois fraud.

    Idiots like this are products of the system. its the system that is fraudulent and rotten to the core.

  88. @BB - bollix, it's Swifty. Fiver to be donated to the Distressed Gentlefolk of Helmand please, SB.

  89. Am now feelin quite glad that I didn't see the BTH meltdown before the mods got to him/her if that's what he was on at. FFS.

    But I like hermione - sometimes a cynical one-liner is exactly what an article deserves (and what I'm thinking). Whereas MAM, for all the lengthiness, does often throw in a bit of Malthusian comment and then fuck off. I wouldn't call that debate, necessarily....

    Mind you I seem to have annoyed him/her after 'depressed people should just pull themselves together' so whatever...

    BB - "The older I get the more I realise that my family was the dysfunctional one because we all loved and cared about each other." Nice one- who needs this 'functional' crap anyway?

    And if we can't fight uor way out of that group, RapidEddie, we deserve everything we get....

  90. Watching The Lives of Others again - seeing as how Virgin Cable is fuxx0rd in our area atm. What a superb film.

    Linky: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

    New Labour may not really be New Stasi, but you can see how easily we could fall into that trap. When you look at the way in which dissent is policed here already, it is not exactly a million miles away from what was going on in the GDR.

  91. right - biscuits and then bed. goodnight all

  92. Dear Miss Burnout,

    I am afraid that guesses (inspired or not - I cannot say) are not acceptable without supporting reasoning.

    But I take your reply to mean that you are willing to meet me for a 'date'? If so, can I suggest that we meet under the clock at Waterloo station at noon on the 7th December. I will carry a copy of The Lady under my arm and you will clutch the Henry Root Letters in your maidenly glove. From there I will take you to my Club and we will see how things develop.

    I should perhaps assure you that I am a man of the world, so there is nothing to fear.

    Your admiring friend
    PS I have already invited Ms Waltz to attend (I regret it now given your message but it is too late to cancel). If it should be the case that she is a 'lesbian' as implied by an earlier poster then I hope I can rely on you to make conversation with her when I am ordering at the bar. No doubt you will have much in common as she has such well-attested compassion for refugees. SM xx (is that over-familiar?)

  93. "Being nice to people a bourgeois fraud? Depends on the people surely?"

    No, annetan, I really don't think so. And I think it's down to a difference of opinion on what "nice" means. Being "nice" isn't the same as being "good" or "well-intentioned" or "generous". Being "nice" means being charming to people's faces as you stab them in the back.

    "Nice" is, like "charm", the secret weapon of the middle classes. I prefer good old-fashioned honesty. There's a lot to be said for being blunt, open and brave.

    There's not a lot to be said for being nice, bland, and unprincipled.


  94. Dear Mr man (or selfmade, if I may, because I now consider you a friend!), I would rather that you took my comments as 'a wink to the wise' rather than a critcism. Recycling is quite popular with the lefties on this blog, so no problem there. My familiarity with your oeuvre is unfortunately due to too much time spent on Cif (although that particular addiction has been conquered - I now inject the methadone of the Untrusted rather than the heroin of Cif).

    Incidentally, although BB may be quite correct in 'outing' you as Peter Guillam, I think that you will agree that in the novels of Mr Le Carre, nothing is ever as it seems. Even the scalphunters and George Smiley couldn't break Ricki Tarr's cover story. To me you will always be selfmademan, and I hope that you will be able to call me

    your friend
    Mr Scherfig

  95. Hank - while we are on the subject of being nice, have you read that Derren Brown piece about kindness? Are you, in fact, Derren Brown?

  96. Dear Mr Man

    I am sorry, but isn't it a little too early in our acquaintance to be going on hot dates at clubs near Waterloo?

    I am only interested if it is Fabric, btw.

    Seriously, your posts remind me of some that Peter did when he was baiting the fash on some thread or other - I think it might have been Monnie. Which is why I deserve the fiver. Ta. x

  97. Niceness and kindness are two wholly different things, BB, as alike as me and Derren Brown.

    As alike as generosity and hypocrisy.

    I'm not going to labour the point. Nor should I need to. So stop trolling (-;

  98. Pah - cable's still buggered. Time for another movie.

    I hope they give me a bloody refund for this!

  99. Oh, missed this...

    Philippa: "But I like hermione - sometimes a cynical one-liner is just what an article deserves..."

    Indeed. Sometimes. Not every time though. That's the problem with hermione, she's a one-trick pony, a sarky, crowd-pleasing comment sealed with a x.

    It's boring, formulaic and trite.

    If either HG or Imogen get commenter of the year on Cif it will only serve to prove how vapid the site has become.

    They might as well outsource the operation entirely to twitter and limit all posts to 100 characters, half of which are "lolz" or emoticons.

  100. My dear friends

    Ah, I had not reckoned on your sophistication (you still aren't quite sure though, are you?).

    Mr Fig: nothing is quite what it seems, is it? Left? Right? The old dichotomies don't work any more. But Ricki Tarr's cover story WAS broken, if you check.

    My darling Miss B. (can I address you so?): I appreciate that you are playing hard to get (nothing wrong with that!) but I think we know each other well enough to meet. The Club I had in mind was not, I must admit, 'Fabric' (is that a discotheque?) but rather 'The Travellers'(Mr Fig will take the reference). Dancing is at a premmium, but they do a splendid steak and kidney pudding which I am sure will pique your interest.

    I will await you under the Waterloo clock.


  101. Don't bloody tweak my nose, BB, engage in the debate. I think this is important. To what extent are you prepared to see debate dumbed down so that Imogen is seen as influential?

    I'm sorry, btw, if Imogen is looking in. She's not the blandest, beigeist poster on Cif. There are plenty more who are equally guilty of posting for no other reason than to while away their working day, but as Imogen has been nominated as Ciffer of the Year, it seems reasonable to target her mundane platitudes as representative of all that's wrong with Cif as a whole...

    Seriously though, BB - Imogen?! How many posts of hers have you read and thought "Blimey, I'd not thought of it like that before" or "Crikey, I never knew that, that's really opened my eyes".

    I'm guessing the answer is between 0 and 1. As it will be with some of the other nice gels with lipstick and jewellery obsessions.

    Just because some posters on Cif are bored with the vacuous concept of "Girl Power", it doesn't mean that some others are interesting, principled feminists just because they like shopping.

  102. I'm too bloody tired to argue, Hank. I spent five hours in the car going to Bournemouth and back for a mention on a case that is so old it is still on the old graduated fee payment scale, so I made a grand total of £46.50 less tax, NI, overheads and expense. Good job I didn't stop off for an egg and chips at Little Chef on the way down or I would have been into minus figures. So I am in the mood for drinking Sailor Jerry's rum and coke and chilling out, not having a barney.

    But for what it's worth, Imogen is not the most incisive poster on CiF. But she does post good stuff from time to time.

    I bought my son a t-shirt a while ago that says

    "Life isn't a popularity contest...oh, wait, it is."

    Which it is. People will always vote for people they like rather than people who do a great job. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I am not going to inflate that into some sort of reflection of the demise of CiF because it's not. It is a reflection of people's tendency to vote for people who are attractive, friendly and charming over people who are erudite.

    And Hermione can be very funny with her one-liners.

  103. And it was a confiscation matter, so I am holding you to blame. :p

  104. Hank, I couldn't resist looking at the Ciffies threads. Words fail me. Praise for racist idiots. Praise for airheads. Praise for identity politics fascists. Praise for the intellectually retarded. Praise for one-trick ponies. Praise for the 'nice but dim'. Praise for the ideologically brainwashed (both left and right). That's what it's all come to. Dumbed down Britain reaches the 'middle classes'. Cif as X Factor.

    And just so we know exactly what Guardianworld should be like - here's Jessica Reed's suggestions for thread of the year:

    My memory is short. My choices are: tie between the Great Jaffa Cake Debate of 2009, Belinda Webb's latest article Enough hand-wringing on prostitution, which following debate really inspired me, or Cif belief's How did you lose, or find, your faith?

    Got that? 1. A bit of fun (because we're not always serious!) 2. Feminism (because that's the key issue). 3. Philosophy/faith (because that's dead serious and intellectual, and as a good Guardian drone, I need to push the Cifbelief threads because footfall is not what it should be.)

    No offence to anyone here who still takes Cif seriously, but I reckon that most people here are way too intelligent to be wasting their time on that crap. It doesn't make any difference what you say there.

  105. Scherfig

    "No offence to anyone here who still takes Cif seriously, but I reckon that most people here are way too intelligent to be wasting their time on that crap. It doesn't make any difference what you say there."

    I don't think anybody is under any kind of delusion that what they say on CiF and 50p is worth more than 50p in terms of influence.

    I post on there cos I like posting. Some days I am up for a good argument; other days - like today - I am too tired to even bother and post inanities.

    I would like to think that I might have posted the odd thing here and there that has made another poster stop and think for a minute or two, but posts like that are few and far between.

    As to having any influence on a larger scale, of course we don't.

  106. Thanks for that, BB. Confirms what I thought.

    Jeez, Imogen "is not the most incisive poster on Cif..." "...but she does post some good stuff from time to time, and she's nice...".

    I think that's called damning with faint praise.

    Imogen is prolific. That's about it.

    As for voting for those who are "funny, charming ginsoaked etc ..and Hermione can be very funny with her one-liners."

    Oh yeh. Hermione. Ha ha ha. How we laughed.

    I used to laugh at Reg Varney.

    In my defence, I was very young and Reg wasn't gin-soaked.

  107. "There's not a lot to be said for being nice, bland, and unprincipled."
    Fuck me, I never thought I'd find the right words for my tombstone.

    Scherfig, taking life seriously is difficult enough for me, everything else can go hang. That said, I could never resist a straight fight.

    Hank, your thoughts on Imogen are based on your perception of the world, they couldn't be anything less. Imogen's thoughts are based on her perception of the world. I honestly couldn't say who had the most important thoughts between the two of you, because that's just my perception.

    Nice to hear lots of voices, however bland they may be to some.

  108. BB - As to having any influence on a larger scale, of course we don't.

    Agree. It's just a blog amongst inumerable other blogs on the net. So its attached to a newspaper some of us actually had some respect for a few years ago?

    Personally, i am now so jaded and fed up I think I might just give up on the whole thing. There's too much spite, malice and mean spiritedness about and not enough solidarity. That banking thread turned up some truly nauseating characters.

  109. I haven't even looked at the banking thread, Sheff. I don't think I could stomach any more morons like CityBoy2006 on the Steve Hill cartoon comments telling us about how it was none of his fault but he is off to the Coq d'Argent to spend some of his bonus on wine at, no doubt, a hundred quid a bottle.

  110. Spot on, scherfig. The whole concept has become so solipsistic, self-regarding, self-aggrandising etc.

    They really do think that identity politics still matter. I love the fact that Jessica Reed butts in with ad homs, because she really really cares, and BellaM throws her weight around on the equality threads, while any reference to the fact that she owes her job to being the daughter of the editor of the Guardian gets deleted...

    Apparently, we're all going to be meeting up on 21 Dec. Bru will be there, Seaton too. Can't wait...

  111. Hey, heyhabib - my view of Imogen is my own. I think she's bland. I think she posts on Cif because she's at work, and she's bored at work. I don't think she cares much about anything at all beyond getting recommendations.

    I think that's obvious from the umbrage she took to BillytheMule's post on the "best commenter" thread on Cif earlier.

    I think she's deeply shallow.

    I think the same of my old friend Kizbot.

    I don't think either of them care much about politics. I don't think either of them have anything much of interest to say. As I said above, I've never read anything interesting from either of them, nothing provocative or revelatory. The pair of them are just white noise.

    I post on here, and Cif previously, in my leisure time, because I do actually care about politics. I have firmly held views and I'm prepared to support them.

    There's a qualitative difference there.

    As I'm sure you'll realise. Pick the bones out of it, habib, but you're gonna have to decide at some stage whether you're a lover or a fighter.

  112. Time I wasn't here.

    Night night all x

  113. Apparently, we're all going to be meeting up on 21 Dec. Bru will be there, Seaton too. Can't wait..

    Best if I'm not present at that particular hypocritefest. I rejected violence as a solution many years ago, but I wouldn't trust myself not to punch certain 'people' in the face. Because it would feel good, and then I would feel bad. I'll send champagne instead (you'll be able to read about that on Cif countless times both before and after the event). Never hide your light under a bushel, matey! Even if it embarrasses and humiliates other people who thought you were a friend.

  114. top thread

    top word

    selfmm,, have'nt seen Basildon Bond and a Parker51 for many a year,,quite the treat,,

  115. "Time I wasn't here."

    Might make a better standfast, Montana, than "I've never run away from an argument."

    A better one might be "Why can't we all just be, like, well, nice to each other?"

    I'm thinking, MW, about making the UT a members only site, £100 a year subscription, with unlimited lentil seeds and joss sticks thrown in.

  116. I rejected violence as a solution long since too, scherf. But, as Clausewitz said, when you've exhausted all the other options....

    So, anyway, 21 Dec....MF? BW?

  117. "Deeply shallow." I think that contradiction describes more than two of us.

    Sometimes I have nothing to say and so say stupid things. Sometimes I have something to say and it comes out stupidly - I'm a human being, that's what happens; we're all stupid in one way or another.

    I haven't quite given up the fight against things that attack my ideology, Hank, but I do concentrate more on the things that affect my dependants. That's just me.

    Perhaps the people you hear as white noise have made choices that you don't approve of, perhaps they talk about things that don't make any sense to you, perhaps they're missing the bigger picture.

    Or maybe, just maybe, the picture they see is the real one and the fight you can never win is your escapism.

    But what the hell do I know?

  118. Hank

    but you're gonna have to decide at some stage whether you're a lover or a fighter.

    Not interested in anyone who isn't both a lover and a fighter.

    "If I can't dance it's not my revolution"
    Emma Goldman, I believe.

  119. Hello to anyone who's still around. Home from work. Sprog's going to a friend's for awhile after supper. Anyone going to be on the late night duties here?

    Yes, Hank. My heart will be in the right place football-wise next year.

  120. sheff, I love you, but if I hear that fucking Goldman dancing revolution quote again, I think my head will explode. I must have heard/read it a million times and it's still fucking nonsense. When I think of all the lovely dancing in Soweto and West Belfast and Sri Lanka etc etc that quote just makes me want to throw up. Sorry. Not very 'nice'. But when was revolution every pretty?

  121. @Habib - I didn't describe or dismiss you as "deeply shallow". And I'm disappointed that I got no credit for the phrase, even if I borrowed it from Oscar.

    As for the rest, well, reflect on it tomorrow. We'll talk again about this no doubt. I meant what I said previously about forgiving you for the larks you and Hermione and others had at my expense.

    I think you're a good guy who got led astray. Your accomplices - shallow, ignorant saddo fuckers. Fuck em. Hermione in particular. Fuck him. Fat housebound transsexual attention-seeking troll. x

  122. "I didn't describe or dismiss you as "deeply shallow"."
    I know, but it's true though. G'night, Hank, or "laters", as we used used to say in Beeston.

  123. Sheff - spot on. Here's a lover and a fighter...


  124. I must have heard/read it a million times and it's still fucking nonsense.

    Oh, thank fuck, it's not just me. I have never understood that.

  125. Scherf/Montana

    oops sorry to be a yawn with the old cliched Goldman quote. I don't find it difficult to understand - but then it depends what's meant by revolution. bit like being a lover or a fighter when I think you have to be both.

  126. loverfighterpsycho

    What sort of revolution are you looking for, sheff? I want one that doesn't revolve around shoes...

  127. Fuck this, no point me casting youtube pearls before BW-less swine....(-;

  128. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L--cqAI3IUI

  129. Sheff - not bored, just don't get what the point of it is supposed to be. If you can elucidate, please do.

  130. *AHEM* I'm rather fond of Mr. McManus, Hank and rather appreciated that, thank you. BW isn't the only one around here with taste, you know.

  131. "So, anyway, 21 Dec....MF? BW?"

    Is that real? I thought it was a piss take. Not outside the bounds of possibility actually. Where?

  132. Got drunk, just got in.


    Behave. Heh.


  133. Is that real? I thought it was a piss take. Not outside the bounds of possibility actually. Where?

    When you find out, let me know so that I can arrange to have a bottle of champagne sent, since I won't be able to be there myself. I want to be adored, too, you know.

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  136. Here's a dancing revolution. It's not all that 'nice', but the music's good. (But don't look too close - it's a bit unpleasant.)

    no time for love

  137. It's a cracking song, MW, no?

    MF and BW - 21 Dec, hmm, yeh, I've booked a conference room with powerpoint facility an' all, just so I can show you fuckin peasants how to fucking hyperlink stuff. How many fucking times have I got to get down on my knees and plead with you both not to non-hyperfuckinglink things?

    Reactionary anti-revolutionary kulak bastards. You're both begging to be liquidated....

  138. Hah
    Just read upthread.
    No change there then eh ? Lordy..

    Here's the best Abba song ever * again *

    Now calm the fuck down....

  139. Well any revolution worth having has to include some proper sustenance that recognises our full humanity and that includes love and dancing - can't be doing with all the puritan angst that has passed for revolution so far and which, it has to be said, has never worked.

  140. Powerpoint??

    Count me in. I'll bring BW and billythemule to make up the numbers. Can you do that shit where the text flies in from different directions?

  141. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK7bWCN5SOo

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  143. Oh BOLLOCKS. Has everyone fucked off *again* ?

  144. the puritan angst that has passed for revolution so far

    Cuba, Vietnam, Ireland, South Africa, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Mexico etc etc - these were revolutions lacking in humanity and love? Characterised by puritan angst? What the fuck are you talking about, sheff?

  145. Here's some typical Nicaraguan music

    Anyone remember Bluefields?


    Fucking beautiful...

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  147. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP and listen...

  148. BW

    That song was bereft of ..er..anything. I suggest you need to straighten your socks and listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uXu067MTqI

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  150. cancion hermosa, bitterweed. Fairly high on the love and humanity, fairly low on the puritan angst.

  151. navro

    .. which song... you slag ?

    Are you just a

  152. Yo, Bitterweed. The sprog has just gone off for a sleepover with his friend, so I'd appreciate it if you'd pull an all-nighter so I have some company?

    Hank: It's a wonderful song. E-mail me the Powerpoint. I wouldn't want to miss out on any of the fun. :-)

    Sheff: Much as I wouldn't want to be one of them, I think that the humourless zealots are vital to a revolution -- they (the revolutions) would never happen if everyone cared as much about dancing as they did about changing the social order. Frankly, I'm still with scherf. Sounds (looks?) nice on a t-shirt but does fuck all to change things.

  153. navro, boring, boring, boring. You want heavy metal before heavy metal was invented?

    you really got me

  154. Here's some proper daft metal.


    Makes me chuckle to this day...

  155. Not a big AC/DC fan, but I'll post this because it's just so baaaad! 4th form humour at its worst. Those guys were reel intillektuellz. It's a laugh!

    big balls

  156. And here's Marianne faithful...

    Why DID you do it?


  157. Nice one scherfig

    She's got the jack...


  158. Hey Montana, now that's what I CALL rock...
    Here's the best thing I heard all year... (no visuals just listen - it's great)


    Hell yes...

  159. Jeez, bitterweed, that Marianne Faithfull thing really didn't work! It was as embarrassing as catching your granny masturbating.

  160. BW

    Absolutely not. I spy on you guys 24hrs a day. Can't remember which song. It was enough to evoke some essential sounds.

  161. MORONS
    Your bus is leaving



  162. scherfig
    They do that you know.

  163. I'm still here, BW. Reading the "commenter of the year" thread, and waiting for the apology from fencesitter, who seems to have mistaken a poster on there for me.

    Sad, really, how people bear grudges so long.

    I keep on reading posts alleging that Fence has a sense of humour. Passed me by tbh. I assume, if he has one, he traded it in for his sense of perspective.

    The major problem with Cif, as has been highlighted by the shenangigans of the last few days, is that there's too much of a luvvy clique going on on the Waddya thread, where the in-crowd get to sneer at the hoi-polloi.

    I very rarely look at the Waddya thread unless my attention is drawn to it on here. I do read the serious threads most days though. Which is why I'm constantly surprised to see that Fence, hermione and all the rest of the 69 group are still active on Cif. Active, that is, in the sense of being in a gang and sneering, as opposed to active in the sense of actually expressing an opinion about something.

    I'm surprised of course because I've never seen Fence express an opinion about anything at all.


    He does a great line in sneering and sniping, but can anyone on here genuinely claim to know what he thinks about anything?

    Nope, me neither. Just another middle class liberal who's watched a bit of Chris Morris and thinks he's edgy.

    Now if you want to take me on, Fence, rather than abusing me on Cif where I have no posting rights, get on here, or email me, or phone me. I'll let you have the number/address if you're up for it.

  164. Oh great a zillion posts before i've posted my heartfelt response.

  165. Nice one RapidEddie

    This is so daftly beautiful...


    For Besty. (And I'm fucking Liverpool...)

  166. Late night (early evening for me) weekend YouTubing is one of the best reasons to be here, RE. I mostly let myself be educated, 'cos my musical knowledge is a lot like the Platte River -- wide but shallow.

  167. Nice ones RapidEddie, but you gotta get with the Guardian programme here - transvestites, rent-boys, prostitution, rape, drugs, violence and booze. It's shocking, isn't it? Someone should do something.

    old main drag

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  169. Hank
    Fuck off pal !
    You're getting into a scrap that ain't worth bothering with. Really. Fight the real fight, not that shite.

    Here's John lee Hooker covering the waterfront. As we all do. Now behave.


  170. bitterweed - I downloaded that one from YouTube to ipod. My son's got it too now, and is working on it on his guitar. Xmas singalong. He'll be John Lee Hooker and I'll be Van the Man.

  171. Wise words, BW. It's deleted. The earlier one remains though...And if you wanna know why, here's my theme tune -


  172. Classic JLH -- but the clip makes me ashamed to be white.

  173. Working my way through all the songs - good stuff, even the dodgy ones. Baccara, so funny.
    Oh, next track bluefields. Dear Jesus that works and is getting added to favourites.

  174. Nice one scherfig. Perfect xmas gear that.

    Montana - great snack-sized appreciations there.

    In a completely unexpected twist, here's Charles Aznavour singing possibly the world's best ever song.


    Live too.

    Can't be bad.

  175. My kind of love song Hank ! Beauty !!!

  176. One for BTH if he's lurking King of the Fairies

    And it's good night from me. And it's good night from him.

  177. Horslips ??
    Fuck me !!
    Nice one shcerfers !!!

    Here's the best thing ever by Hendrix, should have been released on film. Long story.


  178. Just before I retire for the night, two blasts from the seventies past.

    Babylon's Burning

    Suspect Device

    Suspect Device is, I think, '78 and Babylon's Burning '79. Everyone was very angry back then. Probably because the trousers were unforgivingly tight.

  179. Janis Ian ??
    Nice one Montana !

  180. RapidEddie
    Babylon's Burning is the BEST EVER PUNK SINGLE. Ever.

    Splendid !!

  181. Montana
    What is it with you and Terry Hall FFS ?

  182. lonesome moon trance
    First time I'd ever hear it. I'll be playing for it for a while. Cheers.

  183. Yeh, nice one Eddie, with the Ruts but "BEST EVER PUNK SINGLE. Ever." Bitters? Bollocks...

    It's gotta be this one, the template after all..


  184. And while Montana's preparing her defence, here's Pussycat singing their one and only hit "Mississipi". Very romantic it is too.


    And now here's also a marginally famous rock combo called Mountain singing Mississipi Queen.


    Their guitarist was hugely fat

    Small world.

  185. Nah, they were the first ever post rock boy band, that's all. As that ginger be-tartaned pederast of a manager will attest. Just so much corporate blah mate.

    PS.. I hated punk anyway so you may well be right. Give me Ian Dury any day...

  186. Mountain - seminal rock band. Too much dope. Bad attitude. No sense. Fail!
    Good songs about drugs though -

    silver paper

  187. @Montana - love that song, "inventing lovers on the phone", heartbreaking stuff...

    Here's another in the same vein


  188. scherfig
    Wow, never heard that one, great stuff.

    Change of pace now.

    For "God's Lonely Men": we know who we are - mordant, dark, sarcastic little shites. Everywhere.

    Here's Free:



  189. Which one, navro?

    This IS a class song, or poem, strictly speaking. An old fave...