06 December 2009

Daily Chat 06/12/09

Colonel Pride purged the Long Parliament in 1648, which is a good enough excuse to listen to this.  Harriet Tubman escaped from slavery in 1849.  The Thirteeenth Amendement to the US Constitution, ending slavery, was ratified in 1865.  The Mont Blanc, a French cargo ship fully loaded with munitions, collided with the Norwegian ship, Ivo, in the harbour at Halifax, Nova Scotia, in 1917.  The explosion devastated the city, killing around 2,000 people and injuring 9,000 -- 6,000 with serious injuries.

Born today:  Gunnar Myrdal (1898-1987), Dave Brubeck (1920), Steven Wright (1955), Nick Park (1958) and Andrew Flintoff (1977).

It is Independence Day in Finland and Constitution Day in Spain.


  1. It's stood for nearly 6 hours, but the mods may yet change their minds. For preservation, from WDYWTTA:

    6 Dec 2009, 12:46AM


    You disgusting little creep.

    You are a sad, sorry little creature who snoops about like a stalker, collating "clippings" from internet posts - not only here but elsewhere on the internet - like a deranged and obsessive member of the Stasi.

    You are vile and abhorrent.

    I really cannot understand how your revolting sniping has been tolerated so long on these pages. I can only imagine that it is because you are either related to or servicing a member of staff.

    Now fuck off and get a life of your own instead of living vicariously, like the snivelling little poisoned pen that you are, through those of others.

    Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting to hear from the Bar Council about the time you reported me to them. It seems that they are not interested in your pathetic, twisted repugnant witterings any more than 99% of the posters on these boards are.

    Whatever he said has been deleted.

  2. #monkeyfish,
    Ollly was crap tonight the same way you are crap every night.#


    FFS, is that it? Had you down as League2, maybe League1 on a good day, but just lately your posting's Blue Square North at best..in fact, I'd be amazed if you get to start one game in five...

    mind you, come to think of it..you don't do you?

    ..you just sort of lurk on the touchline in a shiny tracksuit hoping people might think you haven't got two left feet and a turn of phrase lifted straight from old Alan Partridge scripts.

    "you are crap every night"

    hmmm?..OK, since we're at that kinda level...take your pick..

    "so's your mam"..or

    "so's your face"..or

    "I know you are but what am I"

    although even responding in such a way, I'm paying you a huge compliment in suggesting your banter has reached primary playground level.

    Don't bother again Rexmundi...I can't be arsed replying to the likes of you...if I wanted that sort of challenge, I'd pop a bit of gum in my mouth and walk to the kitchen

  3. Oh..and Rexmundi..before I forget..

    ..should your shame-filled, bloated little ego and injured 'pride' bring you scuttling back here, don't forget that apology you owe Hank.

  4. http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/dec/04/mayor-fires-at-obama-online/

    Islamofascism goes prime-time

  5. if I wanted that sort of challenge, I'd pop a bit of gum in my mouth and walk to the kitchen

    tea nose keyboardscreenkneesredfacescareddog

  6. i had to go and wash my beard and change my jeans

  7. Morning all

    Sick link, MF. And that from an elected official.

  8. 3p4 - fortunately I hadn't yet poured the coffee when I read that...

  9. Crumbs. Been without internet access for a day and a bit. Looks like I've missed some cracking stramashes.
    By the way, Chic Murray. Absloute genius, 50 years ahead of his time, the man ought to be be recognised as the innovator in comedy. He was first opearting at the back-end of what you might call the music-hall era, and yet virtually invented deadpan, clever 'alternative' stand-up.Got a good biography of him (with many killer lines in it) for my Dad for his birthday this year, which is in a fresh paperback edition:Just daft:the Chic Murray story by Robbie Grigor

  10. Morning all,

    monkeyfish, GIYUS is batting for you on the WADDYA thread. Have a look. He never bats for me despite all the support I've given him in the past month. How so?

    Alisdair, cheers for the book recommendation- off to slip that on my xmas 'wanted' list.

  11. Aww your grace. It just isn't fair is it? You'd think he would show you a bit of appreciation...

  12. My post is still on my profile and got 11 recommends. No doubt that will disappear before long.

    The little creep has been snooping around here again and posted stuff on CiF about me, my son, my capabilities as a mother, who goes out to work instead of staying at home looking after him, then spends my nights on the internet, my perceived abuse of alcohol - a bit like the attack he did on Montana that time, only this was far more direct and nothing nuanced at all.

    He also responded to someone else about the Stephen Gately stuff using biblical language of how he didn't have time to repent, and that hellfire and damnation would be waiting for him.

    Sick bastard.

    I have saved a copy of it for my own purposes. Particularly the next time he pretends to be a feminist.

  13. OK - time to get moving. See you all later. x

  14. BB - it had gone from the thread by the time I got there, so thanks to Montana for 'archiving' that little gem for posterity.

    Am now drinking coffee very carefully in case monkeyfish comes back with anything else...

  15. ooh, U2 v Smiths thread! hmmm, on what side of this should I position myself? heh heh.

  16. BB,

    BTH's slaverings as you outline above is SERIOUS personal abuse and so far over the line it's disappeared over the horizon.

    I know you're not for banning people but in this instance I would email the Guardian to express your concerns regarding the actions of this poster, it's totally unacceptable for cretins like him to post this sort of stuff.

    Quite disgusting.

  17. Philippa,

    here's Oor Morrissie, a Viz pisstake of Morrissey done in the style of the iconic Scottish cartoon Oor Wullie

    Very funny.

  18. heh heh, your grace, very good.

    ah, can i be bothered to do anything constructive today? hmmm.... probably not.

  19. @rexmundi - please phone home, the world's dumbest village is concerned about the whereabouts of its idiot.

  20. @monkeyfish - if a poster's quality is measured by the calibre of stalker they attract, I'd suggest you need to think about raising your game, mate.

    Talking of which, where's Fencestalker with his abject apology?

  21. Hank,

    you looking forward to your season ticket rocketing as you leap up a division next season?

  22. Early days, Duke, but yesterday was fucking awesome (-:

  23. Fuck a doodle doo !!! Morning everyone. I'm very jealous frankly, that everyone's getting their own troll. I want one. I wonder if Santa will bring me Seaton in a Sack if I write now ?

    Just read the Morissey v Bono thread. Not saying a lot is he ?? We used to argue over who was better, the Who or Led Zep, which had some *much* more interesting ethical considerations. Oh well.

    Oh and thanks for the mench on the DM thing Montana (almost blushes)- unfortunately it can't be instructed *really* can it, ha ha ? It either it comes or it doesn't, like mushrooms after the rain...

    In other news, looks like I may getting some gigs in Italy as well as the Norway thing next year, and I'm so happy I might even buy a round at lunchtime.

  24. Monkeyfish,
    I apologise for last nights feeble jibe I wont do it again.
    Your heart is in the right place, it's a shame your head is up Hank's arse.
    Oh dear, I've just noticed that the fat old tart has done the village idiot gag! Far too rich for me girls, I'll leave you to it.
    Thank you so much for starting my day with a smile.

  25. Baroness Scotland on DiD. Think I'll go out - she speak with forked Tongan.



  26. "monkeyfish, GIYUS is batting for you on the WADDYA thread."

    Well, his support is always much appreciated but necessarily ephemeral in nature, being that it's him...still, dunno why he gets deleted...he's a fuckin institution..he makes that place what it is...and while I don't go along with everything he claims..you just know some of it's gotta be on the money..especially the GMG exposes which is probably what winds them up the most.

    Also appreciated his highlighting of guardian online's coveting of the AB demographic in terms of advertising revenue...wonder what your typical AB's poster of the year would look like... I'm guessing they'd split into opposing camps, as different as black and snow-capped

  27. Rexy

    yawn...you still owe Hank the apology for your woeful detective work though sweetheart

  28. @rexmundi - there's little point in apologising for feeble jibes if you then go on to make even feebler, more witless ones. The cynics might wonder whether you're truly contrite.

  29. Morning All!

    Habib - re Benny & Joon - that line about the tree is also my favourite! Makes me larf every time.

    BW - congrats on upcoming world tour. I shall shortly raise a glass in your honour. (Sun's nearly over yardarm.)

  30. To be fair to our self-styled king of the world, MF, the woeful detective work wasn't his. That would require some sort of independent thought processes, which rex doesn't really do. He's the little rat-faced kid who waits for the bigger boys to knock someone down before sneaking in a little kick.

  31. Bitterweed - Baroness S picking Sarah Brightman singing Lloyd Webber, I've lost all respect for her.


    For decent modern choral music, it has to be Will Todd. Although he ain't on youtube.

    Any chance of a roll through Montpellier on he world tour? Could probably find you a venue if you don't mind being paid in beer. Silly question, perhaps...

  32. Good news on the gigging front, BW.

    Went to see this lot last night...


  33. Your Grace Oor Morrissey is new to me many thanks!

    Oh BB & others being stalked, chin up, you are not alone and are part of a trend; and should perhaps look to legal responses to harassment; four of Scotland's best-known bloggers have packed it in, one because journalists outed him to his employer for using abusive language, one who was an aide to a senior SNP figure was caught smearing Labour politcians online, another went out of fear of harassment, and now a Dundee housewife who had an entertaining SNP-favoured site has closed down after finding out that a stalker had found out her name and address. More bloggers are going to quit.

    This fine blogger Polaris gives details here of what's been happening for anyone who is interested -


    And if you think the Guardian is bad for I/P, the Scotsman no longer allows comments on Israel/Palestine as their threads are so toxic; comments are also no longer allowed on posts by their senior reporter David Maddox, as he has been receiving threats of violence and his home has been attacked (probably by local neds but the scale of the online abuse is such that he wonders).

    Legal actions seem sure to follow; in the case of Maddox (who claims to have identified the abusers) they seem imperative.

  34. Aye, Philippa, I had to turn it off after track one.
    As for the "playing-for-beer" routine, unfortunately it won't work in France, the beer is too lousy. I stayed in Fetes St Andre in the pyrenees (?) on a hippy commune once. We showed up late Sunday night, in this ramshackle set of farm buildings half way up a mountain, and after we played a few numbers they decided we needed some booze, so the host buggered off on his tractor to see the neighbouring farm and swapped some deisel for, literally a bucket of blanquette. They were all Rhodesian and South African ex-pats I seem to remember. We stayed a few weeks.

  35. Hank - nice clip, those lads look like they know what they're doing. Where were they at ? Rock City ? Always liked it there.

  36. Sorry chaps but the only person who would have the full text to that post is the vile little snake person himself, given that it was deleted 15 minutes after it first appeared on CiF.

    I am going to delete it because he is a sad little stalking creep who needs to get his own life instead of sneaking about the place and reporting on others like the little member of the Hitler Youth he must have been in his last lifetime.


  37. Nope, better than that, backroom of a pub holding around 100 pissed-up and very appreciative punters. Cracking atmosphere.

    Rock City's a fine old venue but could do with fumigating. Years of sweat have seeped into the walls and floors. Never noticed it much before the smoking ban of course...

  38. Don't let it bother you, BB. The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, after all.

    Take it as a compliment that you've got a heavyweight stalker. Not like poor old MF.

  39. Edwin

    Thanks for that. Harassment, as far as I can remember in terms of legal remedies, doesn't actually require the official identity of the victim to be published, because it is not like a libel case. In terms of section 2 of the 1997 Act the elements of the offence are:

    - a course of conduct
    - which amounts to harassment of another
    - which the defendant knows, or ought to know, amounts to harassment.

    He is bang to rights. "Course of conduct" is more than one instance. Well, we've had the threat of reporting me to the Bar Council because I called him a liar on one thread, and now this, so that is "course of conduct". It amounts to harassment because it is causing harassment to me. And he knows, or ought reasonably to know, that is will do so (which is the only reason he is doing it.)

    Max penalty - 6 month in chokey. Summary only, too, so only the "hang em and flog em" brigade to contend with. No jury.

    If I really gave a shit about that pond-life I could actually report him to the police, and the Graun would be forced to reveal his IP.

    As it is I give him less consideration and a great deal less respect than something I would find stuck to the sole of my shoe after a stroll in the local dog-walking park.

    However, if he keeps it up, things might change because, as His Grace pointed out, this is above and beyond simple arguments on t'internet now and is verging on internet stalking.

    Funny how he only stalks the women on here, too - me, Montana for example - and not the men.

  40. Hank
    "Don't let it bother you, BB. The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, after all. "

    True, dat. I must be doing something right :o)

    BW - excellent news! Has your band got a webpage or owt? Don't post it on here, send me a linky if you have one.

  41. BB, sounds like you've got the situation sorted, I hope you have kept his original post, it sounds pretty sick. I really don't know what the fuck you call that sort of agenda he's got. I see him played by Timothy Spall in a Mike Leigh film, in his pants and vest peering through the nets, never going out, and obsessively writing a chapter a day on the misdeeds of his neighbours.

  42. Sorry chaps but the only person who would have the full text to that post is the vile little snake
    person himself, given that it was deleted 15 minutes after it first appeared on CiF

    Other than us mods?

  43. Hehehe - the tone of his post was more like Norman Bates using, as he did, his "mother's" voice to write it.


  44. Looks like I missed a load of interesting stuff in the past couple of days.

    First things first - BB:

    Absolutely spot on reply to ItWhatIWillNotName (and thanks to Montana for reproducing it above).

    I suggest that anyone who feels the need to respond to any of his shit in future simply says

    “I refer you to BeautifulBurnout’s post of 6 Dec 2009, 12:46AM on WDYWTTA, which says all I could possibly wish to say.”

    Other than that, ignoring the sad deluded fuck really does seem the best course of action, though perhaps it’s easy for me to say that, not having been subjected to his abuse.

    And as I think I said somewhere to someone else about the very same subject, rise above, love.

  45. Eh up andy! Thought you would be out digging on a day like this! Glorious here.

    Yep - trolls are best not fed.

    How's things with you? Hope all is good xx

  46. Norman Bates... hmm yep, could be. I felt a bit bad about associating the wonderful Spall with that wankstain. But he's a great actor - I'm sure he'd rise to the challenge admirably !

  47. andysays - longtime no see !
    I'm off out fer a bit - se youse later.

  48. BB: Things are pretty good, thanks, and it’s a glorious day up here in Norf London as well.

    I could be out working at my allotment, but my mission for this afternoon is to research and complete as much of my Xmas shopping as possible over the internet. Unfortunately I’ve already allowed myself to be distracted…

    Back in a bit when I’ve done my bit to prop up the ailing capitalist system by engaging in an excess of unnecessary consumption ;-)

  49. Hehehehe - I did the majority of mine yesterday! Still a few bits and bobs to get, though. Have fun!

  50. Hank

    Ok...he might not be much to look at, read or talk to but he's my troll and he's the only one I've got..so don't be mean. Anyway, I'm gonna train him up to...well, say a BTH standard..then I might see if I can trade him in for a part exchange on one of those pound shop AA Gills like yours.

  51. Edwin,

    thanks for the links re the Bloggers.

    Scottish press and politics really is a particularly posionous little ecosystem isn't it?

    You can see the press in their desperate death throes lashing out at any perceived competition or oppostition to their 100% Unionist agenda from the blogosphere.

    I stopped reading or buying the Herald 5 years ago, haven't missed it one iota.

    Noticed Kevin McKenna's article has been removed from CiF, I wonder if it's related in any way or CiF have finally realised his columns are an embarrasment to Scottish journalism as the comments underneath week after week after week highlight.

  52. Never mind the trolls and stalkers. There is much more important stuff going on in the world.

    Celebrity pair in rat eating row

  53. I wondered what had happened to that article too, Your Grace. It was shite, though, wasn't it? Not a mention of Johnny Armstrong the Border Reiver, and my hallowed ancestor.

    MF - which of the X Factor-ers are you voting for? Although I don't watch it I can't help being subjected to the goss by all my mates on Facebook, so I am kind of intrigued now.

  54. What is this with all the summoning? On the Ciffies thread and now here. My god you are quite an imperious pair, aren’t you. Terribly sorry, I was putting up Christmas decorations with the kids rather than devoting my weekend to serial masturbators like yourselves.
    OK, here’s the apology: I’m sorry I mistook the words of one troll for another. Really, this was the famous Monkeyfish was it? Trolling is the loftiest height you aim for now? You must be proud.
    The best you could come up with was a lame pastiche of Mr Scorpio’s “distinctive” style, using tired old mantras and words he’s repeated. Well I won’t be the only person who thought it was him. Perhaps you owe him an apology MF, for making him look like a dick. I was slightly surprised, because I genuinely thought he’d given that shit up, so for misjudging him I will offer my regrets.
    But I think you two need to look at your bleating for apologies. Has Hank ever apologised to me for the number of times he’s sought me out on CiF for a special bit of nastiness? No, not once. Both of you crow over how you trot over to CiF under heroic assumed names and aim simply to piss people off. And then you get so fucking precious when people accuse you of doing just that. I remember when Bru accused you of a bit of trolling, MF. For a whole fucking week you acted like a duchess who’d had her arse slapped. Every single post had the word opera in it. And then Bru acted like a twat. But you need to take your share of the blame for all the goading. You keep acting cuntish, but who takes the flak for it all the time? MW. Either from Bru or from that turd BTH who you keep arming. And what have you achieved by all this? You slightly mar the evenings of a few people you never meet. You make Matt Seaton – Matt Seaton – look increasingly correct for having banned you. And that’s about it. Hang on, just for fairness I’ll check. Nope, New Labour *are* still in power and Cameron’s a shoe-in. So well fucking done.
    Your going over to the Ciffies was just a bit of childish spite. You had a go at the self-entitlement you said people like Imogen felt. It was pretty obvious to all that the self-entitlement was being felt by you. And the arrogance you accused people of – you spent the whole evening making out that everybody else was a feeble dwarf compelled to your shining self. You sit there in your room like a pocket Ian Hislop banging out what you clearly imagine are immortal “comic characters” in the desperate, desperate hope that some day some literary agent will happen by and pull Cinderella out of her tedious daily life.
    So, by all means spend the next week demanding an apology and raging at me. I couldn’t give a flying shit what you think. You only bother me when you have a go at people who haven’t asked for it. Again, it’s really rich when you both say how you offend people with little thought and expect them to get over it, and then demand big sozzes. Nope. Apart from anything else, I wouldn’t want to look all Middle Class and ‘nice’, would I?
    Now if you’ll excuse me child B has just accidentally kicked child A in the face and caused bleeding. If you want me to respond, you can fucking wait and see if I feel like it you pathetic little maggot.

    Apologies to the rest of you fr a bit of Sunday jousting.

  55. *Puts on tin helmet and sounds 4 minute warning siren*


    Scherfig - the linky ain't working. And eating rats?! Poor little buggers.

    (Says she hypocritically as she polishes off her roast chicken dinner).

  56. God. They must have been hungry if they though fricasee of rat was a viable alternative.

    "Man What's for afters?
    Woman Well there's rat cake ... rat sorbet ... rat pudding ... or strawberry tart.
    Man Strawberry tart?!
    Woman Well, it's got some rat in it.
    Man How much?
    Woman Three (rather a lot really).
    Man ... well, I'll have a slice without so much rat in it. "

  57. sitter

    OK. I'll do you a huge service here and suppose for the sake of argument that there is some slight grain of worth in your evaluation...I'll get into the details later, if you wish and show you that in actuality, there isn't.

    However, supposing there were..then what does that make you? Just what the fuck are you 'for'? If your whole purpose is predicated on 'hounding' those you judge as trolls (or rely on Seaton's judgement more like..let's face it you lack the critical faculties)then what purpose do you serve by being there...they have their own moderators who can get by without you waving pom poms for them.

    You never take a stance, venture an opinion, chance an argument..anything really. Your role seems self-appointed keeper of the sneering put down..which, and I hate to burst your bubble Oscar, you're not especially good at..well not without help from the mods to whom I dare say you have a permanent hotline from your little batcave. So what is it you do? Are you just the brave defender of any status quo you happen to chance upon? Guardian of CIF and its reputation? Or just a full time Scorpio troll?

    You seem to be defined only in the negative...as an opposition to Hank..how's that working for you? You even seem to have a collection of his 'stock phrases' to hand which you proudly flourished several times..do you collect them? Are you really that obsessed? Are they pinned up on your wall?

    #If you want me to respond, you can fucking wait and see if I feel like it you pathetic little maggot.#

    Ooooh touchy! Something upset you? Word of advice...don't take it personally..it's fucking up your prose style, your deductive powers and your memory.

    Besides...why the fuck would I want you to respond? You're not even 'about' anything. I think I'd prefer if it you just fucked off all together and got yourself an opinion or two?

    But since I'm feeling sorry for you, I'll play along.. let's try...tell us what you thing about the current level of debate on CIF?

    PS.."like a pocket Ian Hislop"..nice touch...tad predictable, little bit derivative.. but anything else would demand some original thinking and, let's face it there's not much chance of that. Personally, I think you're reaching above yourself Sittingbull; maybe try your hand on one of those BBC "teen-comment" sites...not too testing and heavy moderation if you find yourself getting into trouble.

    Anyway..to sum up


  58. Psychiatrist Milkman: "Mrs Ratbag, if you don't mind me saying so, you're badly in need of an expensive course of psychiatric treatment. Now, I'm not going to say that a trip to our dairy will cure you, but it will give hundreds of lower-paid workers a good laugh."

  59. Monty Python Rat Pie Recipe:

    Take four medium -sized rats & lay them on a chopping board. Having first made sure the chopper is freshly sharpened, raise it as high above the rat as you can. Make sure the rat's neck is exposed, the bring the chopper down with as much force as possible onto the neck or head of the rat. Then cook it in a pie.

  60. Nearly forgot

    er Hank...in light of the above, I think it's only fair to claim a half-share in Fencey...which means I've got a troll and a half to your 50%.

    Better get back in training...word from the deep dark forest is: you're losing your touch..the trollfolk are mighty fickle little critters y'know..and it looks like my star's in the ascendency...obviously my little sally on Friday won me a few 'admirers'.

    I'm anticipating many happy and productive hours playing..

    "you're the troll...no I'm not, you're the troll.." with Fencey and Rexy.

    Watch this space.


  61. Monkeyfish's troll tag-team

    Right..out to watch the people's club...back after X Factor..post away

  62. Fencewalker - a spirited response, much more so than your little friend's earlier effort. Couple of points though: I'm not bleating for an apology. I'm not that interested in your opinions, such as they are. I was a bit exasperated that you chose to have a pop at me over on Cif knowing that I can't respond. As you've had the guts to come over here and confront the issue, I'll revise my view of you as a sneaky litte coward.

    Secondly, "You make Matt Seaton - Matt Seaton - look increasingly correct for having banned you..." - well, if you recall, your take on things was that Seaton was right in the first place. Your first appearance on Cif was to endorse that decision, as though you had any fucking right to pontificate. Given that you'd never posted before, it was none of your fucking business.

    As for hunting you out on Cif, get real, flower. You're not that interesting.

    As MF has said, you offer nothing constructive to the debate. Like some of the others who use Waddya as a chatroom, you rarely appear elsewhere because your lack of substance and insight would be quickly exposed. You are typical of the mediocre, intellectually flaccid middle classes who think that tart one-liners amount to "comment".

    Well done btw on spotting that New Labour are still in power. You're obviously more politically aware than I'd assumed.

    Now run along back to Waddya. I'm sure rex and hermione will be waiting with the bouquets.

  63. Fantastic response MF.
    Sittingbull, sitter, fencestalker. That took you how long?
    In no particular order and, I'm sure, not of the quality of yoursself, the Junius of the Modern Age:
    As far as I recall, you set yourself up as judge over the entirety of CiF, not me. Hounding trolls? Ah, diddums. I don't go out of my way to find them, but if I see people being just nasty I'll occasionally have a go at them. As for being Scorpio's troll, he's the one who's turned up on Whaddya specifically to have a dig at me in his time.
    I don't have a collection of stock phrases. Given that there are about four, it's quite easy to remember. You seem to have managed quite well, since your whole performance was a pale imitation of him. As for being touchy - look at your own massive hypocrisy, hopping around like you;ve seen - eeek - a mouse anytime someone has the temerity to talk back to you.
    As for what I'm 'for'. None of your business unless you plan to vet everyone who comes to CiF. You imply this means you're for something positive, yet we only ever see you there to wind people up and troll at them. What, exactly, distinguishes you from BTH these days?
    You say "tad predictable". If you like: obviously "sitter" was far superior. But again, ironic when I predicted *exactly* what you'd say on Ciffies before you said it. Guess that makes you even more predictable. As for the quality of debate on Cif, yes it can be shit. You, for example, were a complete walkover on the Ciffies. I'd love to know how trolling improves it, though. Is this another little narrative you have of speaking truth to power or puncturing pomposity? In terms of overblown, full of themself arrogance, you're a bleedin' dirigible.
    By the way that last "yawn" was exactly what you criticised people for on the Ciffies thread as your hilarious alter ego BillytheMule.
    Just for the record, I have never once reported abuse. No doubt your "abject apology" is on its way. You are very good at apologising.
    Anyway, I don't suppose you give a shit and I'm not going to waste my time either. My problem with you, insofar as I have one, is that you're guilty of every single thing you accuse other people of and that you bravely storm on to CiF and celebrate acting like an arsehole, then come over all prima donna the minute anyone responds. If I'm wrong prove that you've never trolled, thaat you've never indicated that your writing is soooooo much better than that of the "dwarves" on Cif, that you've never hounded anyone there, that your aggressiveness has ever produced one positive result, and that it's never rebounded on someone else. I do define you as a troll - is there another definition for going on to a site under a false name simply to antagonise people? I wish you joy of it, but don't expect my respect or approval, and don't expect the Innocence-impugned act to work.

    Anyway, unless there's something really important to add, I suggest we stop this. It's sterile and I doubt anyone else is much interested - I don't like poisoning blogs as much as you do. If you want to go on CiF and comment about stuff, fine. If you act like a shit I may respond to you - but not because it's you. My powers of detection may not be that good: it'll be because you're being an unneccessary shit whether I see it's you or not. Still, if you're just making good points, you'll have no trouble from me.
    And on that bombshell, ta-da. Fencewalker/sitter/stalker/inserthilariousderivativehere.

  64. There used to be a cartoon in the sixties called Spy vs Spy - I think it was in Mad magazine.

    I think we have a new one now called Troll vs Troll.

    Come off it, MF, you were trolling on that thread and you know it. That's entirely up to you, although I thought it was dumb at the time.

    The fact that people thought it was Hank is neither here nor there (I knew it was one of you but I didn't know which, because of the syntax).

    But you can't call Fencewalker a troll simply for calling you and/or Hank out on it.

  65. It’s all getting a bit “handbags at dawn” now, isn’t it?

    And while I’d defend anyone’s right to engage in what appears to many as ultimately pointless bickering, maybe you’d like to stop and ask yourselves whether it’s absolutely necessary.

    Apart from anything else, you’re all three of you capable of far more worthwhile contributions…

  66. Oh FFS, Hank.
    1) I actually defended you that first time, so save me that shit again.
    2) The accusation of sneaky little cowardice. What about turning up as DonnyOsman to have a go at me out of the blue, without revealing who you were on UT. What's that? Bravery? What about the last time you summoned me to defend myself. And I did at great length. Where were you? You disappeared for a whole fucking week? Do you want a VC for that performance? Once again you berate people for something you're far more guilty of.
    Anyway, why don't you two have a little workout together now. This is taking up too much of Sunday. As for who's the troll, really, I'm happy to leave that judgement to the wider world. But do, if you fancy, spend the whoooole of the evening having a go at me. I'm sure it'll be a blast.

  67. MF/Fencewalker - FFS, I come back here after stuffing myself silly, hoping for a bit of Sunday afternoon relaxation, and this is what I find. (Can you both see my finger wagging?)

    I don't recognise the caricatures that either of you has made of the other.

    If you're going to have a fight, can it be about something of substance?

    Peace and love, and don't make me get the knife out of my belt.

  68. Scherfig
    "Arthur Mee: Well, ladies and gentlemen, I don't think any of our contestants tonight succeeded in encapsulating the intricacies of Proust's masterwork. So, I'm going to give the award to the girl with the biggest tits."

  69. Andy is, as usual, the voice of reason. I've got stuff to do. It's really up to you. What would I get from going on with this but a raised temperature and the danger that I'd shout at the kids? I certainly won't persuade you of anything, whether I "won" or not. In don't think you're open to persuasion. You only like argument.
    And Hank, FWIW, I thought that when you offered - can't remember his name - your phone number, that was a genuinely decent thing to do. But the other side to you is always going to get my back up.

    Nice to see you Andy.

  70. Thauma: like I said, I'm not going to draw this out. But, teach, I will simply point out that I didn't start this business and I'm only responding.

  71. Fair enough, Fencewalker, you've done your lines.

    MF, Hank?

    *taps ruler on palm*

  72. Meanwhile here's some vintage Weather Report


    Ouch !

  73. Dressed like that, thaum, shouldn't you be giving them six of the best? :o)

  74. Dear Mrs. Burnout,

    I am preparing the arsenal of educational corrective measures as we speak. Anyone who steps out of line is for it.

  75. Keep talking like that, and I'll start arguing again.
    Anyway, unless a mass of people other than my two interlocutors shows a huge desire for this to go on, it's over as far as I'm concerned.

  76. 13th Duke (on Waddya)

    MoveanyMountain- Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and a Guantanamo Bay 2010 calendar.

    Well done, young man: gold star for you.

  77. Pat Metheny... One of the world's finest musicians...


  78. BW - always thought PM was a bit of a pretentious poseur. But that was years ago - am about to give it a listen with an open mind....

  79. thaumaturge
    Enjoy ! I assure you, he's a fine, fine man.

  80. BW - well, so far, I think it's quite good background music. Pleasant. Unchallenging.

  81. Fence: good to see you too.

    But don’t you go labelling me as the “voice of reason” if you don’t mind - I’m just as capable as anyone of engaging in ultimately pointless bickering, as I’m sure the archive will show, so my comment isn’t intended to sound like I’m preaching at anyone.

  82. Sorry Andy! Just meant you sounded reasonable to me.
    I don't know if that's a good thing, mind.

  83. Anyway, on Friday sheff mentioned Emma Goldman’s line about not wanting to be a part of a revolution that wouldn’t let her dance. In a way I think it’s a shame that’s the one quote from her that people remember, but I do think it makes an important point.

    To me it means that those of us who aspire to revolution (for want of a better word) shouldn’t lose sight of the everyday joys of human existence and experience, like dancing or whatever else does it for you.

    I think that idea is also reflected in a quote from Raoul Vaneigem of the Situationist International which I’ve bandied about before:
    "People who talk about revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and positive in the referral of constraint, have corpses in their mouths."

    Personally, if I can’t revolt, I don’t want to be part of your dance…

  84. Thauma: here's my peace and love homework, since we're all in a musical frame of mind:


    (Sorry about lack of proper links; round at the in-laws and my gen on that is at home)

  85. The guitar synth toward the end is what I'm on about... beautiful

  86. Well, we'll have to agree to differ on your debut on Cif, FW. But yeh, I'm not interested in pursuing this any further. As thauma has said, our bruised egos are no big deal in the scheme of things.

    Rex can still fuck off though.

  87. Andy - well said.

    Fence - will listen to that as soon as that nice Mr. Coltrane has finished.

  88. Scorpio Minor - We are very glad that Teacher is not going to have to get out the Naughty Duster for you either.

    Agree with you on the Rex issue though. He is such a naughty boy that he doesn't even deserve chastisement.

  89. Hank

    I had a mouthful of cheese and biscuit when I read your last post. I have to go and get a cloth now...

  90. Thanks Hank, though that Pete Wylie goes on a bit, doesn’t he? Don’t think I’ve ever heard the second half of that.

    I’ve got a sneaking suspicion Ian Brown had a tune called “Corpses in their Mouths” - I hope you won’t be providing a link to that…

    Here’s another couple of quotes which I thought I’d throw in for good measure:

    “Unrelenting revolutionary activity coupled with boundless humanity - that alone is the real life-giving force of socialism. A world must be overturned, but every tear that has flowed and might have been wiped away is an indictment; and a man hurrying to perform a great deed who steps on even a worm out of unfeeling carelessness commits a crime.”

    Rosa Luxemburg, who seems now to be remembered primarily for the horror of her death rather than her contribution to explicitly revolutionary activity and thought. I’m currently trying to fill the gap in my knowledge by reading Paul Frolich’s biography.

    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster… And if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

    Friedrich Nietzsche

  91. Thanks for the situationist quiet andy - fab

  92. I mean quote - but quiet is quite good also!


  93. And while I'm on the subject - here's one for BTH.

  94. Hi Edwin, good to see you.

    That’s an amusing typo - the Situationists were never known for being quiet.

    thauma: I find it hard to believe you’re suggesting that BTH lights your fire.

    Inspiring you to flights of ire seems more likely…

  95. Andy - ach, it was a playlist (as I saw it) and the first one was a version of The End with some particularly Freudian overtones. No doubt you are just winding me up. ;-)

    Am now in a very Doorsy mood and will post another shortly if I can remember its bloody name and find it on YouTube.

  96. Sunday night nihilism

    Yeah, well, I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer
    Yeah, well, I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer
    The future's uncertain and the end is always near

    But that's still not the one I'm looking for.

  97. thauma:

    “No doubt you are just winding me up”

    Who, me ;-)

    What about Queen of the (Internet) Highway off “Morrison Hotel”, or maybe just People Are Strange off “Strange Days”?

    Hi scherfig. Yours will do too…

  98. Hi andy. Everybody loves a 'crawling king snake in the rumour den'. :0)

  99. Hehe, scherf, very appropriate also! Methinks poor BTH has completely lost it since Ultima was banned.

    Here's the one I've been trying to think of. Brilliant.

  100. OK scherfig, I thought I was on to a winner with my “flights of ire”, but you’ve got me beat with your “rumour den” line. Can anyone do better, or does scherfig win the pot in tonight’s Misheard Lyrics Poker?


    “…since Ultima was banned”

    Wow, I’ve obviously missed some great parties on CiF since I packed it in.

  101. Evenin' all.
    Here's a song in me head for absolutely no reason at all, honest.

  102. How do you post a linky-type thing on this here barndance of a site?

  103. Andy

    Gentle street where people play
    Welcome to the soft parade

    Fucking brilliant. Am now listening for second time and may just hit 'continuous replay'.

    After all

    the monk bought lunch.
    Yes, he did

  104. Oooh what a game..the football I mean.


    I was a walkover on the ciffies thread? Why because you judged yourself to been 'victorious' ..based on your inflated evaluation of your own performance? or because Rexy told you so? Or because my posts got deleted..despite being much less overtly abusive than yours..

    Actually..Fencesitter...you were the walkover..a judgement reached on the basis on exactly the same criterion as your own..ie. I’ve just decided
    ...and despite my clearly pointing out after your first post that I was not Hank, you persisted in that delusion and went on to quote from previous encounters ...as to your impression that I was doing a 'Hank impression', that just doesn’t hold water...you wanted it to be Hank because you’re obsessed sunshine...even your 'stock quotes' contained words and phrases I frequently use and as far as I'm aware, he never has..but the red mist had descended by then hadn’t it Sitter? (why does that annoy you so much btw..don't try the "it's so lame and predictable" tack..it clearly riles you)..is it because it draws attention to the essential pointlessness of your role: ie would be devastating wit with nothing to say. And fuck knows where the 'fence' comes from. Doesn't fence imply some sort of separation or demarcation?..of what?..from what? There's nothing there from you...just a self-delusion about the cutting nature of your little jibes...you actually get angry when posters don't stagger away reeling from their awesome power...ever wonder why that doesn't happen?

    Now, as for 'trolling'..you going to offer us a watertight definition? You seem to be implying that it's connected to the fact that I wasn't posting in my 'real' name. Well strangely enough, monkeyfish isn't my real name...didn’t you ask me to prove I was a 'mule' at one point? Nope can’t be the name thing.

    So, was it going back under another name having been banned? If you paid attention and had the powers of observation and awareness you 'claim', you'd notice there are plenty of others at that game...they all trolls too? Nope guess not.

    So the subject matter? The fact that I had the gall to suggest that someone was a bit boring and overrated?..and quite mildly to begin with. Does the fact that plenty of people then piled in to agree make them all trolls? Was it because I upset your lovely convivial little self appreciation session? Not trolling in my book..I was effectively acting as a stalking horse...and didn't a few home truths come gushing out? I was providing a fuckin service for christ's sake....and don't tell me you hadn't all had the same thought.

    And, if you recall, my first comment..which was going to be my last was indeed fairly innocuous. It was its instant denunciation as a 'one post hate fest' which heated things up...and I won't deny I just love a slanging match when one comes along but there ya go.

    From the agreement my post elicited, I judged it was actually something that needed saying...there was a bubble there that needed bursting...SERIOUSLY..don't you think so?

    Frankly, if your answer's no then I think we've discovered the root of our differences. ie. You'd prefer an internet consisting of bland platitudes, no dissent and nothing to get upset about...with the odd withering put down from you to demonstrate your aloofness and urbanity..well sorry..I don't buy that

  105. heyhabib

    You cheat like I do and do it in a comment box on CiF like normal, then cut and paste into here

  106. Curses, BB! That's me not thinking out of the box again...

  107. "You cheat like I do and do it in a comment box on CiF like normal, then cut and paste into here"

    Thank you. Why couldn't anyone else just say that without the links to 'tutorials' and millions of weird greater than and less than signs etc.

  108. HeyHabib - well, BB's given the easy version. But us technical folks despise the easy version.

    It's {a href="your link here"}your text here{/a} - replacing { and } for < and > wherever you see them.

    Nothing else is properly up to par. Cheaters never win, etc.

    Enjoyed the Nowhere Man!

    MF - you are now officially on the blackboard as a naughty boy and I will have to consider your punishment.

  109. Shit...I don't get a comment box, do I?

  110. Thaum

    It wasn't me that st...er...maybe not?

  111. Aha! Your first punishment has already been meted out. Await the rest.

  112. Master MF,

    It matters not a whit who started it, but who continues it.

    My steely gaze is fixed in your direction.

  113. why dont you just copy and paste what thaum has just typed into a word doc or similar and replace the curly brackets with the < brackets, then each time you need to use it you can just type in your words and copy in the url in the right bits?

  114. Very good, thauma. Soft Parade is one very spooky album.

    wishful sinful

  115. thauma: much though I love The Doors, I’ve never really got “The Soft Parade”, but let’s not fall out over it.


    I haven’t been following the CiF thread which appears to have been the source of your row with Fencewalker, but it doesn’t surprise me that many of those nominated for commentor of the year are what many of us over here would consider boring and overrated.

    Let’s remember that much of CiF itself and the pseudo-debate which it fosters is boring and overrated (the odd exception not withstanding).

    The whole idea of commentor of the year, thread of the year, comment of the year, whatever else of the year is all, for want of a better word, a bit wanky, isn’t it?

    And regarding BB’s suggestion about pasting into a word document, I’m pretty sure I suggested that to Deano some months ago. But, as thauma says, it’s not who started it, etc…

  116. Wishful, sinful, wicked you - that's me, Scherf! On a good weekend, anyway.

    Nice bluesy one.

  117. "Let’s remember that much of CiF itself and the pseudo-debate which it fosters is boring and overrated (the odd exception not withstanding)."

    Actually Andy..if you had followed the debate the other night you'd realise that your statement above constitutes 'hate speech' and renders you a troll. I'm serious..that isn't some off hand flippant remark...all sorts of worthy posters will weigh in and scream at you. Admittedly many will also agree with you but there is a body of opinion over there that would seriously denounce you as a troll. That's how bad it's got.

    Seaton's got a cosy little vibe goin' on. There's a new Sheriff in town and plenty of willing deputies.

  118. Andy

    I’ve never really got “The Soft Parade”

    No, let's fall out over it.

    From the scarily authentic anti-preaching at the beginning, through salsa and polka, with biting political and social commentary, how can you not like the song? In fact, it transcends song-ness, it is pure fucking genius.

    When all else fails, we can whip the horses' eyes, and make them sleep - and cry.

    Cif in a nutshell.

    And I love horseys.

  119. Andy - 'The whole idea of commentor of the year, thread of the year, comment of the year, whatever else of the year is all, for want of a better word, a bit wanky, isn’t it?'


  120. MF

    There's a new Sheriff in town and plenty of willing deputies.

    If you behave, you can listen to this.

  121. This comment has been removed by the author.

  122. Evening all,

    I've just had a shifty on CiF and there's a joint editorial by 56 newspapers appealing to the politicians on behalf of humanity to sign a deal at Copenhagen.

    Just wondering what everyone makes of Copenhagen and global warming?

    I'm in the strange situation in that the whole thing bores me but at the same time scares the utter bejesus out of me as well. T

    That gnawing sense of helplessness that there's absolutely nothing I can do.

    I know there's the deniers etc but does everyone really, truly believe we are heading for climate armageddon?

    I just don't know what to think.

  123. Your Grace - I am likewise bemused, particularly after the recent e-mail scandal. However, I am pretty well convinced that peak oil, and peak water, etc., is a reality, and that everyone cutting back on consumption (and reproduction) can only be a good thing, regardless of whether or not the earth is warming.

  124. Beg your indulgence, briefly, Thauma:
    1) Not my opinion of myself, MF. Go and read the comments; the vast majority thought you were being a tool. Or are they all 'dwarfs' too?
    2) If you feel that really needed saying about Imogen, fine. I didn't say anything after your first comment. It was only when you wouldn't let up on her - that's what made the difference. As for trolling after you, no. I only go after people who are repeatedly nasty to those who don't particularly deserve it: I do the same at BTH.
    As for 'real' names. Don't be silly - a real straw man argument there. Everyone knows what I meant.
    I don't enjoy these fights at all, but nor do I like seeing people savaged like that. I don't like this place looking like Trollbase Alpha. That is the real nub of the difference between us. And seeing as that's not going to change, I'll return to my silence. I hope you won't drag this out, but on past evidence, I won't hold my breath.
    Sorry Thauma. I'll go and do some extra maths. Ner-night. :-)

  125. monkeyfish:

    “if you had followed the debate the other night you'd realise that your statement above constitutes 'hate speech' and renders you a troll”

    Thanks for the tip. If I had any remaining intentions of reactivating traneroundthebanned, that would probably have been enough to extinguish them.

    Have things actually changed, do you think, or wasn’t it always pretty much like that?

    Proper debate has to include the right to offend and get up people’s noses, and they really don’t like that on CiF, do they?

    And by they, I don’t just mean the Guardian staffers and ATL contributors, I mean the majority of the BTL drones as well, who seem to prefer being told what to think and having the limits of polite discourse dictated to them by their supposed betters.

    It’s a shame, but there you are…

  126. thauma,

    actually it's ok. GIYUS is on to it on WADDYA. It's all a load of cobblers apparently. Thank God for that.

    All I need to worry about now is the impending Tory armageddon.

  127. Wybourne - just an idea - if global warming is a myth and the world wastes time and money on trying to arrest it's non-existent progress - so what? This planet has wasted resources on foolish crusades since time began.

    If, on the other hand, global warming is a major threat and nobody lifts a finger to prevent it, the consequences won't be something we can shrug off.

    Years ago when I was full of crappy management phrases - I would have described this as a worst-case scenario assessment (ie: which of two worst outcomes can you live with best?)

  128. Now, listen, Fencewalker: you've been warned once already. While your post was not particularly inflammatory, another mark has gone against your name on the board. Be careful.

  129. Listen, 13th, I am not happy being put in the same camp as GIYUS. Although I do have some lingering suspicions about 9/11....

    Habib - exactly. We suffer very little by being a bit careful about consumption. On the other hand, if the alarmists are right, then we should all completely panic.

  130. I'm with Thaum and Habib on this - conserving energy and water is not going to cost us a great deal compared to if we don't and they are right. If that makes sense.

    As for the email scandal, apparantly the biggest charge being thrown at them was trying to exclude some data that didn't agree with theirs from a report. But I heard some dude on the radio the other day saying all scientists try and do this no matter what they are working on, and even if that was their intent, they failed abysmally because the offending data appeared in the report anyway.

    Aside from that they made some dodgy looking diagrams but didn't actually alter any of the data. Classic smear tactics prior to the conference no doubt orchestrated by the loony christian palin right. Or someone.

    I know someone they could recruit, as it goes...

  131. As for the email scandal, apparantly the biggest charge being thrown at them was trying to exclude some data that didn't agree with theirs from a report. But I heard some dude on the radio the other day saying all scientists try and do this

    BB - no doubt they do, but it's pretty fucking disappointing nevertheless. If you believe in the scientific theory, you shouldn't be trying to suppress evidence.

  132. Thauma: I know, and I'm sorry. I just don't want people to take silence as an admission of anything. But now: silence it is, as long as everyone understands the silence. Even if I have to grind my teeth to dust.
    You're good at this. Have you ever thought of a jaunt to Palestine to knock heads together?

    Habib - agreed. Said similar on Whaddya.

  133. Hey everyone! My, we've been busy here today!

  134. Fencewalker - please do not ever, EVER, make a comparison between meself and the current Middle East Peace Envoy. *aaaarrrrggggggghhhhhh*

  135. @FW - "I just don't want people to take silence as an admission of anything."

    I take your point. I could have responded line by line to your earlier post but didn't. That doesn't mean I accept your criticisms of me, obviously, but I really don't think there's much to be gained from pursuing the debate.

    No need to grind your teeth to dust either. You are never going to agree with me or MF; our perspectives are inherently different, there's no common ground. So ignore what I say, and I'll ignore what you say.

    As I said earlier, this is all about bruised egos, and some prickly posters getting a bit too sensitive.

    And as I am full of bonhomie still as a result of this...


    ...I'm prepared to let it go, as I said earlier. You might want to acknowledge that offer as a sign of good faith.

  136. Sorry, blaired vision.

    Of course no comparison:
    1) You are poor but honest
    2) He's got shit legs

  137. Happy to do so Hank. Damn good post, actually. With any luck we won't go grappling and cartwheeling to our doom into some volcano or something.

  138. Well done, Master Scorpio, although I am slightly mystified by your round-ball link.

    However, I don't agree with this:

    You [FW] are never going to agree with me or MF; our perspectives are inherently different, there's no common ground

    It's all starting to sound a bit *cliché alert* People's Front of Judea. I suspect we're all in agreement about the things that really matter.

  139. 13D:

    “Just wondering what everyone makes of Copenhagen and global warming?”

    We can argue about the rate of global warming and the extent to which it’s caused by human activity till the methane-producing cows come home, but it’s absolutely a reality, and one which will have very real consequences in the lifetimes of most of us, I reckon.

    But I really can’t see that a gathering of world leaders in Copenhagen or the publication of a joint editorial in 56 newspapers will make a significant difference, and here’s why.
    First consider it on a global level. All those world leaders (especially that nice Mr Obama that Seaton’s missus worries about so much) have as their prime concern the maintenance of the capitalist system, which is why they were able to act relatively decisively recently when it appeared that the world banking system was about to collapse around their ears.

    Capitalism depends for its existence on expanding, rather than just standing still, so cutting back on production, exploitation of resources, emission of greenhouse gases and other pollutants is really not an option, however much they try to convince us that’s what they want to do.

    So they’ll argue about what proportion of greenhouse gases various nations should be allowed to emit, and make noises about net reductions which they’d like to achieve in the future, but when push comes to shove it won’t mean a great deal.

    Britain can reduce its CO2 emissions by importing more of its products from overseas, but unless they can be flown in on magic carpets, the overall energy and CO2 cost will be higher once you ship your manufactured goods in from China than it would have been had you produced them here.

  140. And on a more micro level, maybe we should remember the “revelation” that monkeyfish pointed us to on Friday, namely that the rich have the biggest carbon footprints in the UK, and his comments following on from that:

    “They do all the holier than though AGW preaching when they're the biggest offenders thereby confirming their status as major fucking hypocrites. Although that's hardly news either. They're the ones calling for more use of public transport etc. Who do you they have in mind as passengers? Their kids? Their missus/husband? Like fuck they do? Anyway… why do their houses use more energy? Do they need bigger houses? Do they have more kids? And why aren't they using solar panels and recycling their piss or whatever it is they're wanting the rest of us to do?”

    To address a few of his questions:

    Their houses use more energy because they’ve got more money, more space to heat, more stuff which depends on energy.

    They need bigger houses because they can’t live in the same cramped conditions that the rest of us do; they need lots of space, just as they need to buy services from an army of poor people, doing things for them they could either do without or do for themselves.

    They may well be using solar panels, but since the things that are being powered by these solar panels, and even the solar panels themselves have to be made in the first place, using energy and resources, they are simply kidding themselves if they think that this can be equated with “going green” or saving the planet.

    They also use more energy doing all the various things outside of their houses, like flying off to distant parts of the world at the drop of a hat because they so need a break from the terrible pressures of their lives, while the rest of us just have to make do with the mundane pleasures of booze/drugs/football/insert your favoured option here.

    But most of all, they use more energy because they, unlike the rest of us, are worth it, and what the fuck would be the point of being rich if you weren’t able to spend your money just how you wanted to, whatever the consequences for the rest of us?

    On both an individual and a global level, the idea that we can conserve resources and reduce global warming while clinging to the capitalist system is, I’m afraid, wishful thinking.

    We are, in a very real sense, fucked.

    Hi Montana, how are you?

  141. Sorry, but I've got to do a bit of shameless promotion here.

    If you are fortunate enough to have a shilling to spare, as deano would say, then hit the Big Give website tomorrow - the organisers will add their money to your contribution. My choice is FSID

    Apologies again. And hello & good evening all.

  142. andysays, I really want you to be wrong, but the simple fact of the matter is - you're not.

  143. Good points, Andy. Today in the Observer, Catherine Bennet had a shockingly rational piece vaguely along the same lines (the topic was marriage, but pointing out the hypocrisy of the
    Tories on the subject).

  144. “Shall I start building an ark?”

    Unfortunately, BB, that is a typically individualistic solution as suggested by the capitalist system and as such I cannot condone it, especially as the use of resources it would inevitably entail would simply add to the global problem.

    But if you do, maybe you could find some space for me ;-)

  145. I guess I'm doing well enough, Andy. Glad to see you back in these parts. How's you?

  146. Well I'm chuffed, then. I feel like I've just watched this (sorry, Linking Is Fucked):

  147. I've only just noticed the Hebrew subtitles. Weird.

  148. "Go and read the comments; the vast majority thought you were being a tool. Or are they all 'dwarfs' too?"

    Oh come on...what the fuck does that mean?.."look at the thread"? you mean the thread as it is now..now the 'clean up' has taken place? Are you for real? Yeah look at the thread..what comments?..I didn't make any bloody comments!

    You really do go in for the 'prevailing' status quo don't you? a prime apparatchik. Your arguments seem to rely on 'revisionist history'.

    #If you feel that really needed saying about Imogen, fine.#

    And you don't?
    Well I'll assume you don't ..still loathe to take a stance, aren't you?.. and are happy with a world of mediocrity and muzak...maybe our real difference is just 'aesthetic'?

    #As for 'real' names. Don't be silly - a real straw man argument there. Everyone knows what I meant.#

    So why the fuck did you ever raise it?

    #...nor do I like seeing people savaged like that.#

    Yep..as predicted..here we go.."savaged"?
    "actually, you're a bit boring" = hate speech and psychological abuse...shit, I'd better go into hiding before she sues me for post traumatic stress.

    #As for trolling after you, no. I only go after people who are repeatedly nasty to those who don't particularly deserve it#

    So..you're not 'trolling' after me? Is that what you're saying here...or am I repeatedly nasty to people who don't deserve it? Who would that be then? Ms Black? A certain opera lover?

    I'm sure that earlier you drew the startling inference that a certain resident of Belgium's attack on Montana was a result of my getting upset about outrageous accusations and invented conversations. Now, personally, I don't see that and regard her decision to lash out at an innocent party in her frustration as an admission that her bullshit re. my activities was a busted flush.

    Don't be laying other people's overweening vanity, pride or personality disorders at my door. Nor a certain other precious type's outrage at not being thought the life, soul and intellectual linchpin of the party.

    Seriously Fencewalker..all stylistic, motivational and 'political' issues aside...is a site where a bit of honest, non abusive criticism can be interpreted as a 'hate fest' what you want?...and it was non-abusive..at first..and hardly hit the heights thereafter.

    Anyway..grind away with those teeth, when you've none left there's always Farley's Rusks to suck on...just the kinda flavoursome exciting fare you go in for if your taste in interweb comment sites is any indication.

    Right, that's me done.

    As Ludwig so eloquently but mistakenly put it..

    "that whereof we cannot speak, we must pass over in silence"

  149. Good posts, andy.

    Re the "...they so need a break from the terrible pressure of their lives...", I'm dealing with a taxpayer (in the broadest sense of the term) who moved to the UK at the age of 18, has made a lot of money, £60M+ personal wealth at the moment, by screwing workers to the wall with fixed term contracts, union-busting, 60 hour weeks on minimum wage etc.

    He's claiming that the 40-odd years he's spent in the UK making his money, applying the screws to the poor saps he exploits, fleecing the taxpayer through the PFI contracts he's won, has no impact on his domicile position as he's a true son of Ireland and will be returning there when he retires because "it's a less pressured environment than the UK".

    Makes ya laff. Or not.

  150. Just a reminder for those who think that overthrowing the government in a violent revolution is a good idea. :-p

  151. Flamin' heck, hank, that's abysmal. And presumably all too common?

  152. Sorry MF, you've just wasted your time. I'm enjoying the calmer feelings too much too indulge you. I haven't read your post but I'm sure it was very good and I'm sure arguing with you would produce no exciting results.
    I hope you haven't strained anything.
    Have a look at the you tube thing, it'll make you feel better.

  153. It's not unusual, mschin, as Tom Jones might say. Stops me getting all complacent and cif-friendly though (-;

  154. Well, without coming across all cuddly, you're spot on about the Irish fella. I have never understood the logic of PFI and cannot see how in any normal circumstance it could be justified. Same as with privitasation of school meals and such. I don't see how adding a profit motive helps provide efficient and good quality service. More a way of offloading blame and industrial disputes.

  155. Not that fekker O'Leary is it? I know you can't say, Hank. So just cough once for yes and two for no.... :p

  156. The thing about the houses really gets me. The central residential area in my town has some formerly lovely Victorian homes of a decent size and lots of mature, leafy trees. When I was a child, it was still the nicest neighbourhood in town. Now, anyone with a bit of money has built a McMansion on the west end of town, on what used to be farm land, and all those grand old Victorians are broken up into flats and run down. Stupid, wasteful, typical American fucked up mentality.

  157. On the topic of waste: every morning on the bus I sit with loads of school kids going on a forty minute journey to one school, and see busses going the other way rammed with kids doing the same journey in reverse. The government lambasts us for our eco-failures and yet fails to recognise that things like having a sensible schools policy would work wonders on our carbon policy, our transport policy and half a dozen others.

  158. "More a way of offloading blame and industrial disputes."

    It's worse than that, imo. It's a means by which to redistribute wealth upwards, taxing the working and middle classes to enrich even further the rich and powerful. If you haven't yet read "The Shock Doctrine", FW, you really should. It's a brilliantly perceptive book. If I have a criticism of it, Naomi's scope is limited to Chile 1973 and after, placing all the blame at the door of Milton Friedman and others, whereas if you've watched "The Corporation" or even "JFK", you'd have to conclude that capitalist democracy has long been a conspiracy through which the rich fleece the rest of us.

    Link here to the first chapter of "The Corporation" - if you've not seen it, it's worth the effort of plugging back into youtube every 7-8 minutes or so...


  159. I’m good, Montana, and glad to hear you are too.

    My curiosity has been triggered by MF’s reference to

    “a certain resident of Belgium's attack on Montana”

    but maybe we’d better not reopen that one.

    And for those of you apparently shocked by the inequities of PFI, the tax system and the movement of global capital, I will, yet again, quote Peter Mandelson:

    “New Labour is intensely relaxed about people becoming filthy rich”

    What else did you think he had in mind?

  160. Cough cough, BB. The sad thing is that there are a few pantomime villains out there, O'Leary, Goodwin etc, who take the flak, convince us all that there are just a few bad apples. That's crucial to the maintenance of the system we have.

  161. Master Fish

    I'm afraid you are going to have to go and sit on the naughty step while we contemplate your chastisement.

    Mistress Thaumaturge

    FW - Know what you mean about the journey. I only have 6 miles to travel to work, but every morning and evening I see the same cars passing me, going the other way ... has to be something more sensible!

  162. Well, I've got a bit of work to do tonight, but I'll try and watch the Corp soonish.
    Certainly, the last year or so does seem to have shown the government trying to prove that case.

  163. You know what, andy, a lot of Ciffers claim that they lost all faith in NL as a result of the Iraq War. I never had much faith in them in the first place but thought they were better than the alternative.

    The point at which my patience snapped was when Peter Intensely Relaxed Mandelson and Gideon Osborne were smearing sun tan lotion on each others' arses on a yacht owned by a Russian gangster.

  164. It's a bit crazy-making -- so much corruption and greed and when we in the lower orders dare to complain we're told that we're waging class warfare and that it's for our own good. I get so angry just reading about it and feel so impotent to do anything about it. I wouldn't be able to handle dealing with the fuckers on a daily basis, the way you do, Hank. I'd have lost it on one of the shitbags by now.

  165. morning (relatively)

    you'd have to conclude that capitalist democracy has long been a conspiracy through which the rich fleece the rest of us.""""""""""

    the essence of 3 years of posts from GIYUS,,
    an early set of monikers was FalseFlagMedia,,

    the study of old newspaper headlines in the light of modern history is very scary,,HG Wells
    wrote about the danish cartoons back in the thirties,,the Mohammad part being played by the Kaiser(pre ww1)

    i have always seen the stupidity of 'commuting' to be one of the biggest elephants in any room anywhere,, and have mostly managed to avoid it through my working life,,

  166. Fence

    #Sorry MF, you've just wasted your time.#


    Since when did squeezing in the last word become a waste of time?


    Re your pithy one line put-downs...you'll know when you're getting good...they'll ban you.

  167. That was a joke..

    almost...there's a gritty little kernel of truth in there too..


    OK so what's the punishment? Some lines maybe?

    How about I give you 1000 words on why liberal idiots have destroyed any chance of an effective barrier to the Tory nightmare we're sitting around and dreading?

  168. Hot Shot Hamish is a charismatic sporting icon, whose blond and muscular good looks influenced a generation of young Scots to eat healthily and take regular exercise. He made his debut in Roy of the Rovers magazine and insinuated himself into the nation's affections with a powerful shot. The tender affection he bestowed on his pet sheep, McMutton, led to an upsurge in shepherding and sheep-rearing that was to fuel the second great crofting movement in the Highlands and Islands

    misharis blog must be crackling with that faggot to throw on the fire

    hardly surprising mckenna got removed,,(which by the way is a very rare event ,,in spite of the number of claims made to the contrary on the cif pages,,its nearly- always- a case of "poster cant find it" ,,i have made many posts to inform lost travellers,,today is the first time i have seen the "content removed" header but still been able to find my own post,,

  169. graceful exit MF,, good style

  170. Oh my.

    They have a Gordon Brown piece up on the Copenhagen Conference. With comments open.

    *waits for the fur to fly*

  171. Makes me laugh, hollowly, Montana, whenever I'm dismissed with the charge of fighting the class war. As if there's only one army in this battle.

    The problem with Cif, and reluctant as I am to rake over the ashes of the "Commenter of the Year" debacle, is that so, so many of the posters on there are bourgeois liberals. Most of them no doubt had principles and anger when they were young but now they've hit middle age, the anger has been bought off with Volvos, loyalty cards at Waitrose and M&S, 3-bed detached mock Georgians with security cameras all around, and season tickets at Stamford Bridge or the Emirates.

    Most of them know that they've sold out, bought in, got old and dull, and hate themselves for it, and hate it even more when they're called out on it. Which is why they get a bit snippy on Cif, railing righteously about how peeved they are about the nasty people who just can't play nice, haven't yet "grown up" like they have, haven't got all smug and boring.

    For the avoidance of doubt, this missive is not aimed at anyone on here today. Happy to debate these issues with FW and others who might feel offended but are not actually my target here.

    If anything, my target would be Jackie Ashley-Marr who used four posts to nominate Imogen Beige as commenter of the year. Says a lot about NewLabour that...

  172. Have to admit, Ive been on CiF for years and that's the first column I've seen pulled. Ignorant, half-arsed pseudo-humour (with the Guardian's usual "let's-patronise-the-Scots angle", and isn't it strange how the rag is so Unionist, thereby opposing the self-determination that they've fight for anywhere else in the world...). That said, there have been far,far worse more directly and elementally offencsive and inaccurate pieces which have stayed up (several in the last couple of weeks, esp.Libby Brooks, Barbaraa Ellen but they are by no means alone)so I wonder why McKenna got pulled?

  173. Hank:

    Like you, I never had much faith in New Labour, or even pre-New Labour, to be honest. I voted for them in ’97, but haven’t done since, and I really can’t imagine any circumstances under which I’d vote Labour again.

    I don’t remember any particular moment of epiphany, it was more just a general impression that they were simply about the pursuit of power for its own sake. All spin and no substance, pretty much from day one.

    “a lot of Ciffers claim that they lost all faith in NL as a result of the Iraq War”

    Terrible though the Iraq war was, and its consequences remain, Labour have done enough damage to people’s lives right here in Britain that even without Iraq, any such faith should have gone quite some time ago.

    It’s almost as if some Ciffers care more about dead Iraqis than they do about they do about the ordinary British people whose destroyed lives New Labour has presided over, but I’m sure that can’t be true, can it?

  174. Re your pithy one line put-downs...you'll know when you're getting good...they'll ban you.

    its unlikely i will ever achieve the lofty and purified steppes of thebanned,,i am not sharp enough to be that blunt,,but i did manage to get deleted for posting a few months back that read

    "oh a MAM thread,,seen one seen them all"

  175. No offence taken. I understand your point of view, and the anger, I just think you're far more effective when you write as you have here this evening. People might listen then.
    I'd also say that the history of revolutions isn't exactly studded with successes. Plenty of dead communards though. It's the slow and boring pressure afterwards that seems to do more.

  176. 3p4

    cheers 3p4...praise from you? must be losing my edge

    GREATEST SCOSTSMEN..this is 'men' yeah? there'd probably be 6 women in my top ten..and greatest is a bit iffy..my favourite Scotsmen

    1)Ken Buchanan
    2)David Hume
    3)Jimmy Johnstone
    4)Jerry Sadowitz
    5)JC Maxwell
    6)Alistair Gray
    7)Spud from Trainspotting
    8)Chic Murray
    9)The 'only' James Bond
    10)Benny Lynch
    11)Manny Shinwell
    12)James Kelman

    I'll leave it at 12..Duncan Ferguson would be appearing not far under here..about 20,000,000 rungs ahead of Adam Smith


    #If anything, my target would be Jackie Ashley-Marr who used four posts to nominate Imogen Beige as commenter of the year.#

    Knock off the hate speech Trotsky.

  177. Shit..forgot Alex Young

    Glad I wasn't on that ciffie thread..hit the button and you suddenly remember you missed off the Golden Vision.

  178. my favorite scottish anything

    a chinese face with a glasgow accent,,better than
    doing mushrooms,,

  179. "I just think you're far more effective when you write as you have here this evening...."

    Thanks again, FW. But, and there's always a but, what I've said tonight is basically a reiteration of my usual schtick. I'm a one-trick mule. All that's missing is the ad homs.

    If the ad homs hit their target, and it's usually, in my experience, that it's only when the ad homs do hit the target that the target cares about it, then maybe the problem is less mine than the target's...

    "Knock off the hate speech Trotsky."

    That made me laugh, MF. I was called Trotsky last night too.

  180. Greatest Scotsmen...


    Fox on the run...I'm all for the ban, and 5-1 at the home of football yesterday was cruelty to dumb animals but hey, made me fucking happy.

  181. Ah well. Guess we'll never be holidaying together. I'd only say that there's more to this than you and the 'target'. What about the people watching who could be persuaded? I'd say they're more likely to be turned off at seeing someone beasted (unless it's an RBS director or summat) than won over. No doubt you'll disagree. Are you trying to win anyone over?

  182. Oh gotta add this one, happy memories of watching TOTP as a little kid and being more scared of Steve Priest than I was of the Daleks...


  183. praise from you? must be losing my edge

    or you cleaned your glasses,,