18 December 2009

Daily Chat 18/12/09

Kublai Khan established the Yuan Dynasty in 1271.  No clue whether the stately pleasure-dome came before or after the dynasty name change.  The Mayflower landed at what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts, in 1620.  Charles Dawson claimed at a meeting of the Geological Society of London to have been given fossilised human remains that were found in a gravel pit near Piltdown in East Sussex.

Born today:  Charles Wesley (1707-1788), Saki (1870-1916), Paul Klee (1879-1940), Willy Brandt (1913-1992), Betty Grable (1916-1973), Ossie Davis (1917-2005), Keith Richards (1943), Steve Biko (1946-1977), Steven Spielberg (1946), the Bra part of Brangelina (1963) and Robson Green (1964).

The Islamic New Year starts at sundown, when it becomes 1 Muharram, 1431.  May 1431 be a good year for everyone!


  1. Morning all,

    was out all day yesterday at an xmas knees up and log groggily on to the news this morning. May I be allowed belatedly to pass comment on the BA strike overturn?

    Jesus Wept.


    Fuck the ruling classes of this country, fuck the govt, fuck the courts, fuck the business elite who've stitched us up out of trillions, fuck the tax dodging media who go along with the former, fuck the myopic tossers who can't see that this ruling is THE THIN EDGE OF THE WEDGE FOR ALL OUR EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS.

  2. Thank the non-existent deity for you lot! I was beginning to think I was the only one! Even the left leaning eco-hippies I work with are banging on about it "not being fair to ruin peoples' Christmas travel plans"!

  3. Just clocking in to show that the last time was not merely a flying visit and to see if I have managed to change my name.


    Fuck the ruling classes of this country, fuck the govt, fuck the courts, fuck the business elite who've stitched us up out of trillions, fuck the tax dodging media who go along with the former, fuck the myopic tossers who can't see that this ruling is THE THIN EDGE OF THE WEDGE FOR ALL OUR EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS.

    Thanks for that. Helps to set me up for the day.

    Now that we are all living in fear of being attacked by wandering polar bears or drifting into the sea on glaciers and icebergs, I wonder whether CiF could cheer us up with stories of the rich and famous and the lovely politicians and all the wonderful things they do.

    Perhaps set it in an exotic location, just to emphasise that only the little people are subject to the vagaries of silly weather.

    Now, where is the most Disneyesque, fairytale location on earth, replete with castles in which every night is magical theatre night?


    Any ideas?

  4. Your grace -

    Thanks for that! been seething since I heard the news!

    The BBC has been banging on about how 'the union didn't obey the rules regarding ballots'!

    The anti union legislation in this country makes slaves out all of us! The employers can treat us how we like but we have to jump through impossible hoops in any effort to defend ourselves from them.

    Conducting a ballot costs money and the employers are warned of impending action so can take measures to defeat us. Unions have been led by the nose into taking up endless 'casework' and have the expense of going to industrial tribunals. Working for individuals like this is contrary to the whole rationale of Trade Unionism which is necessarily about what used to be called 'combination'. Solidarity and phrases like 'Unity is Strength' come to mind as well.

    Twelve years of (Nu) Labour and we still have this sh*t on the statute book!

    Nuf said!

  5. Littleman,
    don't think we've met. How do.

    CiF have actually got their own Magical Xmas getaway catalogue here.


    you're absolutely correct. All Union law now comes with added labyrinthian fuck the workers subsections.

    If they couldn't get the Union on what they did, they would have banned the strike using

    -Clause 4 (called clause 4 specifically to rub the workers noses in it),

    Santa sub-Clause 69,

    Section 36,

    sub-section vi,

    sub-woofer 432.674,

    sub-marine U72,

    sub-that clown he's played shit for the last 63 minutes get him OFF!

    sub-surface Metropolitan line,

    sub-Dante's inferno (the all workers will slavishly do as they are told or rot in hell for the rest eternity)

    sub-mit or die proletarian scum

    of the Union laws introduced by Thatcher.

  6. Am I me yet?


    Littleman should be Atomboy if only for the sake of consistency, but you may have seen me as LittleManandFatBoy - or not, of course.

    Anyway, work to do, so "laters" as the kidz on Corrie say.

  7. Wonder what the judge had planned for Christmas?

  8. Regarding Britain's Union laws and employment rights, a comparison with one of our EU neighbours is apposite.

    I lived and worked in the Netherlands for a few years and the differences in the way workers are treated and actively participate in their place of employment is stark compared to ours.

    The Ondernemingsraad (Workers Council) is central to employment in the Netherlands. These works councils by law have to be established in companies with more than 50 employees but Dutch custom states that smaller companies normally have mini councils.

    These workers councils BY LAW are allowed to have a major say in all strategic company decisions, have the right to almost all company information and are Democratically elected by the employees.

    Works councils have the right to go to court over strategic decisions they do not agree with.

    Now to our right wing chums on CiF this is nothing more than tantamount to COMMUNISM!! It's a workers soviet, we'll be back to Pol Pot's Year Zero!

    Yet strangely enough, the Netherlands has one of the lowest strike rates in Europe, is also one of the wealthiest and has one of the highest income equality rates whilst normally coming top in all social indicators also.

    Funny that eh?

    Imagine having full, integrated workers rights enshrined in law? Imagine respecting workers as Adults and giving them input into strategic decisions? Imagine it WORKING!

    More can be found here

  9. Your Grace,

    Don't be daft, it's well known that things just over the channel are so vastly different to things here that their models would never work, we should be looking across the atlantic for solutions instead, the yanks do these things much better, and are far more comparable....


  10. I know Dot,

    when I scan CiF posts it never ceases to amaze me that the right wing posters cannot see that the socio-economic shithole that Britain has become is a direct result of 30 years of the socio-economic policies they espouse.

    You introduce US Monetarist policies, guess what? You get US social problems. And the answer to that is US laws- executions and bang everybody up with MoveanyMountain the figurehead for that particular knucklehead rationalising on CiF.

    And the only solution the right have is more of the same. Under the pretence that New Labour has 'Labour' in its name and is therefore Socialist, the socio-economic ails we suffer is a direct effect of Socialism.

    It's a logical leap of unfathomable distance.

  11. 13thD
    "And the only solution the right have is more of the same. Under the pretence that New Labour has 'Labour' in its name and is therefore Socialist, the socio-economic ails we suffer is a direct effect of Socialism."

    A real pain in the ar*e that! as if Stalinism wasn't enough!

  12. 20 mins and I am finished for the year - w00t!!!!

  13. Morning all

    Re works councils - same in France too. Any business of 50 employees or more has to have a conseil de travail. But not us, of course. We have a board of Directors who tell us what is good for us instead.

    Your first post this morning, Your Grace, puts it quite eloquently indeed.

  14. Further to this general drift, the best way to keep politicians in line would be to set up oversight or scrutiny committees or whatever you want to call them in constituencies to act as a bridge between power and the people.

    The function would be to forever analyse what an MP is doing for the people who elected him/her.

    Any ideas on what these could be called and how to start setting them up?

    Tip: No, we do not need the permission or approval of local or national government to do something like this.

    They are our fucking servants and it is our fucking country.

    Now, rather than admiring what others do, start growing backbones and do what you want to do.

  15. I think the idea of a local MP oversight committee would be a good thing. As you say, no need for anyone's permission to do this, is there?

  16. Who was on here the other day complaining about Amazon?

  17. Hi All-- Ive been following the BA labour fiasco and a disgusting turn of events it is. Don't think the UK is unique in this type of 'governance'. Our governments (federal and provincial) are also on the teat of large and multinational corporations too. Labour laws have been weakened substantially, along with pension reductions, wage freeezes, etc. I'm retired, but really despair for the workers and the young.

    Anyway, off to the city to meet an old friend and do some shopping. Yuck! (on the shopping that is) Bye for now.

  18. Been busy all day, even keeping off CiF, but my blood boiled when peterbracken stared flinging around the bigoted ohrase 'latent schizo' on the thread about paternal (clinical) depression with fatherhood.

  19. Evening all!
    Hi Boudican yep sure is like that here Alitalia workers were well and truely screwed, of course berlusconi made sure that a consortium of his mates got the profit making part of the company for a bargain..thieves the lot of them

  20. "Who was on here the other day complaining about Amazon?'

    Oh Dot, maybe someone in de-Nile. Sorry!

    Congrats to my second choice MAM on winning the Cif commentator award. I suggested a blog for him here a few threads back, something along the lines of 'On Being Wrong' (and a piece on klezmer music by Berchers if he won but he didn't get nominated alas).

  21. Just had a look at that Alasdair, and commented on it. People who have never suffered from depression don't have a bloody clue about it, they really don't. I used to be of the "for god's sake just snap out of it" school of thought until it happened to me.

  22. I'll say one thing for Amazon, they are bloody good at customer service if things go wrong. A couple of years back I received an empty box with a shipping note instead of the DVD I had ordered and they didn't even quibble once about sending another one out to me.

  23. Spot on BB. Have been there myself, which led to a carrer change into MH (was briefly a lawyer of sorts, gulp after scrabbling around as an historian,again or sorts)

  24. Hi everyone.

    On BA - well said Duke!


    It was princessc who was complaining about Amazon, re: her faulty notebook. I think it was Jay who has had problems with them in the past.


    Interesting idea. Maybe MPs could be subject to the same statutory duty as councils, which have a 'duty to involve' local people? My other half complains every election time that in 20 years, he's never been canvassed on our doorstep & never seen our MP in the area. The best we get is party leaflets telling us how wonderful they are & what they have done for us.

  25. Hi atomboy

    They are our fucking servants and it is our fucking country.

    Now, rather than admiring what others do, start growing backbones and do what you want to do.

    Great to see you in this nest of insubordinate vipers and couldn't agree more - but am off on my jollies tonight so it'll have to wait 'till I get back. In the meantime have a think about what we do about the avaricious pigs that run the huge multi-national corporations that actually seem to call the shots. My feeling is string 'em up - starting with Walsh and Goodwin as examples and possibly Mandelson because I'd like to pull that rope myself.

    (rexi baby - I meant that last bit metaphorically in case you're thinking of reporting me to MI5)

    I notice realpolitik seems to have overcome the few radical voices in the smoke filled rooms at Copenhagen.

  26. Yey Friday night!
    Montana ended last night with alcohol, ganja and lurve. I don't think it can be beaten, but anybody got some tunes this cold, cold evening?

    If you're off and away, Sheffpixie, I'll take this opportunity to wish you and yours the most merry of Christmases.

    mistletoe alert!

  27. Re: scrutiny of MPs Good idea even getting a local paper to question them about how they voted would be good.

    Details of their expenses should be available online of course.

    Sheff absolutely right about heads of multinationals - they are the ones that demonstrate very clearly that there can be no real democracy while property on theat scale is in private hands. As Thomas Rainsford said 362 years ago-

    "I see that it is impossible to have liberty but all property must be taken away"

    A vote is useless when these gits can buy the government.

  28. Oh and forgot to say have a good time Shef!

  29. sheff

    You take care, my friend, and have a most wonderful time. Not much warmer in Istanbul, by the look of it, but definitely warmer than here! It was Istanbul, wasn't it?

  30. And on those infamous entities known as multi-nationals .. wasn't it a bunch of nuns in New York who bought shares in one, so they could attend shareholders meetings & actually have a say about the way the company operated, and make demands for ethical business practices? If only we had the money, the entire Murdoch empire could be purchased by the UTers & life would be begin to be a lot less beige.

    But owning the MNC is only one part of the whole sorry mess - for example, aid in exchange for 'structural adjustment' in the form of economic development opportunities & tax breaks in developing countries, etc etc. I'll hold the rope for you.

  31. Sheff enjoy istanbul it's a fantastic city, I loved it, take some warm clothes the wind nips down that Bosphorus!here's a little tune to get you in the mood!

  32. Happy Christmas Sheff! Have a lovely holiday.


    You know you are getting old when you are in the house on the Friday before xmas. Sigh.

    I must say one of the things I miss about my previous life when I used to work in commerce is the company Christmas do. We are having a drink together on Wednesday, but that is about it. No Casino-themed dressy nights out paid for by the company. No turkey lunches. Bah.

  33. gandolfo - thanks for the tune, had me dancing! am all packed and twiddling my thumbs waiting for the taxi.

    Habib, a kiss! - that's one I'll definitely accept. and here's one for you..x..

    Merry Christmas and a very happy, revolutionary new year to all.

    PS: keep your fingers crossed the bus doesn't get trapped in a snow drift before we get to Heathrow.

  34. Sheffy baby,
    Why would I do that? are you confusing me with Rexmundie?

  35. Sheffpixie

    Too late now, I imagine, but have a nice hol in Constantinople.

    Hope to chat when you get back.

  36. Atomboy

    On the constituency-level scrutiny of MPs, who would be on these 'citizen scrutiny panels' (for want of a better handle)? Anyone who turns up? Party members of MPs own party?

  37. And because it's Friday night, here's a banned video from Derbyshire primary care trust.

  38. Shit, MsChin! I had no idea anyone was filming me!

  39. Ahh, BB. The wonders of CCTV ..

    Fortunately it's not real, but acted. Very realistically.

  40. MsChin

    I am not sure because I have not given it a lot of thought and am now too tired to be able to, but your guesses, ideas and proposals are as good as mine or anyone else's.

    I would suggest anyone who is eligible to vote and certainly not limited to party members or any other partial or artificial limiting or excluding factor.

    The point would be to have something which would engage people who might otherwise not see themselves as political and act as an independent collective overseer of local and national politics.

    Of course, politicians and those who dislike the idea of greater scrutiny and public accountability would sneer and say such things had no power or legitimacy. However, if they found that it made enough ripples amongst those whose votes represent the ticket to the gravy-train, they might start to wonder how long their political careers would last if they ignored such bodies.

    Once you got enough momentum and publicity, it would be hard for Dave and the boys to say they disagreed with the idea. They have espoused localism and they can hardly say that they want to diminish democracy and accountability.

    The point would also be that these bodies would have to be outside any interference or control from the state, or they would be pointless.

    Sorry, this has not really answered your question, but as I said, your ideas are as good as mine.

    Think of it, perhaps, like a turning of the tables. They want to surveille every one of us from the cradle to the grave. We just want to look at what they do for us and what wriggles and contortions they contrive to avoid that task.

    The other option is that we collectively adopt MPs across the board and become their proxy parents in order to ensure that no harm comes to them, like doting parents watching their every move.

  41. Loads to do tomorrow for the festive blowout eg: contemplate getting the house into some semblance of order (roughly equivalent to sweeping the muck under the carpet, as opposed to a good fettle), whilst sipping coffee and carefully filing nails. So it's goodnight from me.

  42. Atomboy

    Just caught your post before I left, as it were. There are different 'panels' which act as external reference groups for local govt, but they are set up by councils, as opposed to citizen-led. So we could have something similar for MPs - but not state controlled, as you say, so the panel sets the agenda. But while I'm interested in your idea, I'm knackered. We might continue this conversation over the next few days, maybe?

  43. Looks like the combined forces of the Untrusted and the moderators have silenced one of your critics; and MoveAnyMountain wins commenter of the year. Bit ironic and a somewhat hollow victory, but something to celebrate at The Bunch of Grapes.


  44. So why did they ban you, Bitey?

  45. BTH/Job, your inflated sense of your own importance is still intact, I see. The 'combined forces' of an inconsequential blog and the moderators of Cif (who finally got tired of you) were necessary to silence you? No, I think you can justifiably take all the credit for your own demise.

    I said here a few days ago when I noticed that Cif had deleted you, that you might well pop up here again. And here you are! Well, you know the real score here, in spite of what you have constantly said on Cif about this place. So, feel free to speak 'truth to power' to a bunch of alcoholic misogynists. You'll get a fair hearing. It might even be robust.

  46. Fencewalker, maybe this -

    Montana Wildhack said...

    And Hank - I think BTH riles people because he is so sycophantic. Gushes praise for all the radfems to the point that it's just nauseating. He makes me look like I'm just this side of LenFirewood & Brusselslout on women's issues.


  47. I can't see it being that. Did they not give you a reason?

  48. scherfig said...

    "thauma, feminism on Cif - our Somali chum Halgeel84 had a tilt at BTH on the prison thread. I thought she put it quite well:

    'The fact you consider complications of gender by race, immigration, class and other forms of marginalities as off topic speaks volume. I cannot be bothered with this and similar kinds of really outdated forms of feminism. They do not teach this way of talking about feminism in Canada. This way of speaking about gender is a First wave feminism, It is Eurocentric and it enacts its own forms of silencing, suppression. It is self-serving and it is divisive.'

    She can be a bit odd sometimes, but she nailed that one. Maybe Canada is the way forward :0)"

  49. btw, BTH, The Bunch of Grapes has fuck all to do with place. That is kizbot's own little luvvie project. She doesn't have a franchise or anything, you know.

    positively 4th street

  50. This is a bit gnomic. Are you saying it's not because of one thing, but comments by several UTers taken together?
    Can't you just tell me? This is like talking to HAL.

  51. That's right BTH. It's all about other people, isn't it? Absolutely nothing to do with you at all.


    I wish you well, I really do. It would have been better if they had stuck you in pre-mod for a bit instead of banning you outright. But, frankly, you made your own bed.

    You could either petition CiF mods to be allowed back, as Jay was, or you could turn up in another guise. I reported you for abuse when you started spouting rubbish about my child, based on half-conversations you had snooped-on on here, largely because it was not the first time you have done that - you did the same to Montana a few months back.

    There are some lines that reasonable human beings don't cross. Getting at women through their children is one of them. You chose to cross the line, not once but twice.

    And that was on the same night that you had nigh on a dozen utterly vile posts deleted on the Ciffies threads too. I read some of them before they were deleted and I don't know whether you had been drinking when you wrote them, but they were screwed-up.

    My guess is that you were on some kind of probation from that point onwards.

    In any event, as I said, you can either ask to be reinstated or go back under a new nick if you want to. But don't think for a minute that I won't report you again if you ever - ever - try to use my child as a stick with which to beat me again. It is the lowest possible form of attack. But then, you know that otherwise you wouldn't have done it.

    Now - it is Christmas week. I call a truce. If you want to post here I will be happy to converse with you. But don't expect much sympathy if you are just coming here to insult people.

  52. Montana Wildhack said...

    Isnt suhasini the lunatic?...

    One of them, anyway. I figure, you get Suhasini, Halgeel, Ultimathule and BTH together in one room, you've got yourself a party.

  53. BeautifulBurnout: -

    "Congratulations on a well written piece that has actually managed to inspire a reasoned debate on the issues it addresses. Hopefully it will be the first of many such contributions.

    Must say that I can't see the idea of Cif Gender taking off, if Jessica Reed's notion that it be a "safe place" is adopted. This would basically turn the whole thing into a place where authors would submit ATL pieces in the expectation not of their take on a issue being debated BTL but, rather, to simply await the plaudits of a grateful public?

    Mind you, having seen some of the editor's contributions to the prison thread, it appears that this is the sort of place they'd like Cif to become (I nearly vomited when reading Matt Seaton & BTH's mutual admiration posts).

    Ah well, back to watching "The Fifth Element"; sad I know, but bringing in Gaultier to design the sets & wardrobe give it an incredible look; even if I do sit there & pick holes in their depictions of Edfu Temple - the thing is huge & set right in the middle of a large town/small city for God's sake - every time I watch it."

  54. OK, so you've gone core archivist. If you won't talk, I guess I'll devote my full attention to aliens (Vazquez is for the chop soon) and wish you luck.

  55. Fence

    Archivist? It's called obsession isn't it? Seriously.

  56. halgeel84 - banned
    ultimathule - banned
    BTH - banned
    suhasini - incoherent at best, but still going strong.

    Some party! Who would be in charge of the tunes, I wonder?

  57. I didn't know halgeel got herself banned! Damn. I used to like a lot of the stuff she posted.

  58. Certainly a slightly peculiar response. Maybe it's just 'cause of what I'm watching, but there's a Sci-Fi movie quality to it all.

  59. Fencewalker said...

    "Oooh Gushing Polemic's slapping of BTH is a work of legend in a week of legends. When will they let him out of premod, do you reckon?"

  60. Did I say that? Do you fancy telling me why?
    (which will be the key, of course: as far as I can recall I've never gone for you unless you've gone for someone else).

  61. Seriously, I wanna go to bed, so if you want to tell me, it needs to be quick or I'll try and read it tomorrow.

  62. Aliens directors cut on Film 4

  63. D'oh - just scrolled back and saw it was Aliens.

  64. Apparently Hudson has found out he can't hold 'em, man.

  65. Ooo, here we go: "Put her down you bitch" is coming up.

  66. BB, she got banned for a reason. She has said some pretty 'questionable' things in her time. And many more things that were just monumentally stupid. Perhaps you're just not too familiar with her posting history. I very much doubt that you are anti-semitic or a defender of FGM. Although cultural relativism is, of course, important so criticism of such views must be muted and respectful.

  67. LMFAO at the comment about GIYUS btw! Excellent! :o)

  68. Thankee. I wondered if it was him laying a trap at first, but he seems to have disappeared. Probably building a lair in the Ardennes.

  69. scherf - I didn't realise she was either of those things, although it is fair to say that I don't track people's posting history.

    Speaking of old voices, Skimmer is back under the name of troweliton - I never thought I would say that I got on with a poster who was also a member of the BNP, but I used to have some good conversations with him back in his Skimmer days. It took me a good while before I recognised him this time, though, because he is full-on BNPeeing under his new nick instead of hiding it under a bushel, as it were. Ah well.

  70. Skimmer rings a bell, but from a long ways back...before I was even posting, I think.

  71. Anyway...bedtime for Bonzo. Half an hour of Ibn Battutah, a smidge of Catch 22 and then schlafen.

  72. 'I don't track people's posting history.'

    BB, it's more a question of just reading the stuff people have posted over the years. And not being too quick to praise (or condemn) them.

  73. Typical -- I get home, get caught up, and everyone else is going to bed. No sign of the late nighters, either. Does this mean I'm going to have to amuse myself with old episodes of HIGNFY tonight?

  74. I'm still awake, Montana, but only just! I will be off soon cos I need to hit the shops early in the morning if there is any hope at all of parking the car...argh!

  75. Fence,
    "Half an hour of Ibn Battutah, a smidge of Catch 22"
    You know, if you can read Ibn Battutah, you shouldn't be allowed to.

    Here's to Marco Polo and MAM, both can write what appears to be original, to much acclaim.

    And a song for Job.

  76. Sorry, Montana, I'm still here.
    Play some music, so I don't have to. Theme tonight could be broken hearts - when you last made one, or when you last had one.

  77. Have to get to bed, guys and gals. Much to do tomorrow, as usual.


  78. Broken hearts, Habib? I don't think I ever broke one, but mine's been patched up a few times.

    The one you can't forget.

  79. Ronstadt knows stuff. "I'll give you a daisy a day", there's forgotten promises. The Motels are new to me, the song anyway. I like it a lot.

  80. Oh cracking good stuff, cheers!

  81. One thing I've got to pick you up on, Montana,
    "I don't think I ever broke one"

    Yep, a lot of women, in my experience, don't bat an eyelid when they break hearts. It's like Cher slapping Nic Cage in Moonstruck. "Snap out of it!" they tell you. You can be a wuss or a tough guy, but the fact is, it hurts.

  82. Habib -- I've only ended two relationships. One after six years of what I would call emotional abuse -- constant criticism and being told that I was lucky to have him, because no other guy would ever be able to put up with me, etc. If I broke his heart (and I doubt that I did), it wasn't a patch on the damage to my psyche that I still struggle with. After all, I'm 48, still single and haven't had so much as a second look from a man for 11 years. Maybe he was right and he was the best I could ever get?

    The only other time I ended it was my son's father -- and that was because I will not be any man's punching bag.

    Other than that, I'm always either the dumpee or the unwilling friend.

  83. Sorry to hear that, boss gal.
    For what it's worth... I've seen you're piccie and I would give you a third, fourth and fifth look.

    Hope that doesn't sound too creepy, or sycophantic, but you are bloody appreciated, you know.

    I posted this a while ago, but it really is how I feel about you

  84. No, not creepy or sycophantic. Really sweet and much appreciated.

    I somehow missed that song the first time around, apparently. What a beautiful song and the woman has an incredible voice. Thank you! I'd plant a big, wet one on you if I could...

  85. Oh alright, let's go all very camp then. Dance with me?

  86. And as for Terry Hall! I love this, with Dave Stewart and then how much cooler can you get than Isabella Rossellini and Kevin Spacey in the same place?

  87. I know that I'm not exactly unbiased, but I think the Vegas version of 'She' is better than Aznavour's. Terry's voice just has a fragility on that version that really suits it. Here's he is with a different 'She'. Still good (video quality is shit on that, but the audio's okay).

  88. I like that version.

    "Dancing around" songs. For my kids it was me as Baloo

  89. Montana.

    "...For what it's worth... I've seen you're piccie and I would give you a third, fourth and fifth look...."

    I'll raise him and give you a sixth, seventh and eight look young miss. You is a fine lady and I likes yer.

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