02 December 2009

Daily Chat 02/12/09

The University of Leipzig opened in 1409.  The second Eddystone Lighthouse was destroyed by fire in 1755.  (The first had been destroyed in the Great Storm of 1703.  They're apparently on the fourth one now.)  Pu Yi became Emperor of China at the age of two in 1908.  And Benazir Bhutto became the first woman Prime Minister of Pakistan in 1998.

Born today:  Georges Seurat (1859-1891) and Maria Callas (1923-1977).

It is the International Day for the Abolition of Slavery.


  1. [ancient art joke alert] I never saw the point of Seurat.

  2. Groan... Edwin... but i take your point.

  3. Morning all,

    I think today there will be a ciffie award nomination thread for best commenter.

    In amongst your choices, would you make room for GIYUS?

    To paraphrase Berchmans:

    ## Yes to unsubstantiated and unjustifiable nominations for GIYUS! ##

  4. Not at all sure what to do with those awards threads. If past experience is anything to go by, they give the awards to whoever they like (voting achieves bugger-all). Fair enough in that it's their site, but the user involvement is a sham.Oh, and the witty snipers, the prickers of the over-inflated egos of the big-name above-the-liners never get the kudos they deserve (eg your hermiones, your 13thDukes etc. Oh and valued contributors like questionnaire (who I've met in person a couple of times and correspond with)have packed in because of the paper's inability to stomach valid, non-abusive criticism of some of its cherished above-the-liners. Add to that matt seaton being absolutely insufferable at times, defending the indefensible and blindly sticking up for his mates, threatening to take his ball away: I think he doesn't grasp the role of an editor isn't be an autocrat and smugly try and lay down the law in a supercilious manner.

  5. I disagree regarding Sarka, Scher, i must say. Yes she uses 30 words where 3 will do, yes i do find that style very irritating, and yes often when you strip the flowers away there isnt much left, but, she does sometimes have interesting points, and if you drag her into a row she's a good competitor.

    Good to see some newcomers over here (obviously chasing that commission), maybe GIYUS will suggest billignorer is actually Montana drumming up custom.

    Alasdair and Eddie, welcome.

    On the subject of RappidEddie actually, i am considering him for my ciffie nomination. I'd like to vote for someone who joined in the last year rather than an established and think Eddie has been pretty good, some brilliant posts. And possibly CommanderKeen for his occasional rampages (like his assault on PaulSagar).

    ON the subject of best threads, i hope its a savaging that wins it, rather than an "interesting debate". There are interesting debates every week, epic savagings are more rare.

  6. Are they going to string the Ciffies out over weeks and weeks?

    What's the best article? Who's the best contributor? Who's the best new contributor? Who's the best political writer? Who's the best cultural writer?

    It feels like your ageing Aunt Mabel angling for compliments on her new hat; her new shoes; her new blue rinse.

    What people really want to do is (a) get it over all at once and (b) get to the red meat. What was the worst column? Who's the worst columnist? What was the most memorable BTL savaging? And yes - commenters want to give kudos to other commenters. Best BTL commenter. Best newcomer commenter. Best single post. Most barking mad commenter (tie between GIYUS and BTH).

    I don't think I can stand 4 more weeks of "Just how gorgeous are we, people?" in installments. One thread, all categories, get it over and done with so we can start rigging the voting.

  7. JayReilly, not chasing a commission at all: I don't think Mr seaton and I would see eye to eye. I actually had a little 250 word thing printed above the line recently in a Society Guardian supplement (still online) and it didn't change my world (didn't get a blue C either, no matter). I used to frequent another CiF refugee-style site that lasted about a year, where the likes of questionnaire, Mswoman, PeterGuillam,LaRit,shazlee and quite a few others hung out, but it dwindled away, so glad to find this place with the likes of your good self .

  8. Well, you were a busy lot last night!

  9. I like Sarka. Yes she says a lot, but she actually holds a fair bit in reserve and as Jay says she knows how to handle a scrap.

    I mind once Berchie had a go at her - it was like that Landseer painting, Dignity and Impudence - she mashed him into the ground and then sewed salt over him.

    Welcome eddie also - I think we'd all agree you are one of the best new voices.

  10. A special award for defending the indefensible must go to the appalling Seaton.

    Welcome newcomers btw.

  11. RapidEddie,

    Best post would be a good one. There's two I remember vividly But not the actual article it was commented on!):

    1. imasmadashell's barnstorming rant against some New Labour drone.

    2. RedNorth on a Tory Party Conference article.

    (I'm off to find them again) Also

    3. Any post by princess a la chipchops, PeterGuillam and ellis.

    4. And without wishing to 'suck each others dicks'(Nice Guy Eddie at the start of Reservoir Dogs) I had a look again at Queen Bea's OBE thread and Jay's first post on that made me laugh hard again.

    5. Best name: GIYUS with 'Anal Rusebringer9', the name that would wind up CiF on so many levels or 'SatanGreavsie'. Makes a football fan of a certain age chuckle heartily.

  12. OMG What on earth was that all about?! (WDYWTTA)

    Just had a quick look (last night I was busy making mince pies, worked quite well, 1h 15mins in the fridge before rolling out seems to be the trick...) Now I'm left wondering when I'd signed up to do a tour of duty on the Islam threads, and what the punishment for desertion is??!

  13. Dotterel,
    Been trying to email with a query about wasps.
    Seen a nest about 15 feet up a tree in garden.
    Grey paper, entrance at bottom, 7 to 8 inches across.
    Do these blokes harm other insects such as ladybirds? If not I'm inclined to leave 'em as they weren't any trouble in the summer when they must have been building it.

  14. @ Dotterel. 1hr 15 in the fridge. That's very precise. I tend to be be a little more, er, experimental/shambolic with culinary forays. I used to time things by how many cigarettes I could smoke in the meantime (packed in,again,now though). Not too bad a system...
    I'm going to be a conscientious objector to avoid a tour of duty on I/P threads. In all conscience, I'd be left with boiling blood, a reduced regard for the human species and a f*cking awful headache to boot.

  15. Stoaty,

    Normal, black and yellow UK wasps? They do eat other insects, but are more likely to concentrate on pests like caterpillars and such than ladybirds.


    I was aiming for "about an hour" but my Dad rang with his "We've been chatting for 45mins precisely" rubbish (he's on the BT free calls unless you go over the hour thing, and heaven forbid my father* should spend one penny more than he needs to telling me about his and Mum's latest Caribbean holiday.....)

    Oh, and hello newbies, fear not, any mention of pineapples on CiF was all talk!

    * I do love him really!

  16. That imasmadashell post was epic - my first ever clipping! Didn't they say that the three categories would all be dealt with this week on the threads, and then they'd have the vote? Seems reasonable - although I am conflicted whether for best thread it should be a slaying, or, for example, the recent thread about depression etc where there was actually a 'group hug' at the end. Because that was both touching and rather uplifting.

    And I'm thinking clunie for best poster as she's quite new and has dealt beautifully with the dolts on many occasions when I have been deleting draft after draft as 'just too bloody angry'.

    alasdair - ha! I also use 'fag-breaks' when cooking. Just long enough for something to get going, not long enough to burn...

  17. Dotterel,
    Thanks, I'll leave 'em then.

  18. Stoaty,

    You're welcome, although the nest may get bigger next year, and, on the gender thing again, you know they're almost all girls, right ;-)

  19. Philippa, so what are the three categories? If it's a simply a contributors' mutual bell-end polishing contest (Who's the best? Who's the best of the bestest? Who's the best of the bestest of the brightest and most beautiful?) we might need to suggest a few unofficial categories BTL.

    Not just be to be edgy and contentious, but CiF would learn a lot more by taking Razzies than awarding themselves Oscars. Especially in the light of a couple of the more recent articles, plus ongoing pointlessness from the likes of MacShane, acknowledgements in the achievement of utter shite are merited and desperately needed.

  20. Dotterel,
    Oh great. Maybe I'll just cut it down in midwinter and chuck it in a bush in the country. I hear there is nothing to be done in summer apart from fleeing of course.
    The fact that they are female doesn't bother me, like my close personal pal bth I am no misogynist
    It's the stinging I don't care for. Contemptous looks I can handle.

  21. Stoaty,

    Just how close are you and BTH, or don't I want to know?!?

  22. rapideddie - i think the categories are:
    best article
    best thread
    best poster (BTL)

    people suggesting alternative categories (best avatar, worst article, biggest kicking meted out to a single article, etc) seem to be getting modded as 'off-topic'.

    i originally suggested a 'cutest avatar' cup (as I'm a girl, but am actually glad that hasn't been taken up as what with shazwombat, mrmondypops, flatpackhamster, modshavnofriends, cordeliam and colin, among others, I would be too conflicted.

    the 'top trumps' idea for posters was a good one but could get complicated...

  23. Dotterel,
    Mind your own business you prurient scoundrel.
    Who do you take me for? Katie Price?

  24. I merely thought you may be gender confused as well as species confused...

    ..if BTH is off limits could you at least tell me whether you're Mustela putorius or Suricata suricatta?

  25. Dotterel,
    Do I detect a whiff of impertinence in your last post? I hope not.
    I think your problem is that once you're off the ants you're all over the place. Get a grip.
    I am as much a meercat as you are that fucking robin.

  26. Dotterel,
    I blame my childhood, the second instalment of which is posted on wdywtta.

  27. It's not a fucking robin as you well know

    and may I politely suggest that you step away from the toad you've been licking?

  28. CiF should have a "best flounce" catagory

  29. 'best flounce'
    heh heh
    additional sub-categories - 'best shot when you know they've gone' and 'most unedifying return post-flounce'

  30. 'Best flounce'. Can't think of any off hand, anyone any ideas?

  31. Here's imasmadashell's post I referred to earlier. Mighty:

    "Those outraged by our expenses are not addressing deeper questions such as what kind of people we do want in parliament"

    You mean the kind of people I thought I was voting for in 1997?

    You people just dont get it, do you? This expenses scandal is the culmination of years of disillusionment that we have had to endure with the Nu-Lab project. Here's some home truths for you.

    The vast majority of voters in this country hate your guts. And its a double whammy, the ones who despise you the most are the very people who voted for you back in 1997. For the millions of us who celebrated the removal of the Tories that night, hoping that a Labour government would undo all the pain and suffering that the Tories had inflicted, you have systematically destroyed those dreams, whilst putting two fingers up to its supporters.
    You see, you have betrayed every single principle the Labour party once stood for, trampling upon Labours once proud traditions and shredding any sense of decency. Your party, a Labour party, has moved so far to the right, you have turned it into a Thatcherite Frankenstein. Using the pretext of a ‘war on terror, you have introduced draconian legislation, destroying our rights and freedoms, and are intent on bringing in I.D. cards. You now mean to pry into every phone call and e-mail, surveying our every move and spying upon millions of ordinary people in this country, in a remorseless drive towards an Orwellian nightmare of a totalitarian state. Meanwhile, you have rubbed shoulders with every right wing loon from Berlusconi to Bush, involving us in criminal, obscene wars that have cost millions of civilians their lives and destroyed 2 countries. And, as if we couldnt sink any lower, you have also willingly aided America in the use of torture and rendition, bringing disgrace upon our country and making me feel disgust at our actions. All these deeds should make any self respecting Labour politician feel deeply ashamed. But, when you have such a bunch of selfish, dishonest, unabashed shits so bereft of principles like yourselves, shame simply doesnt come into it, does it?

    You have seemingly cobbled your policies together by either consulting with Rupert Murdoch or the letter writers of the Daily Mail, ending in some of the most ludicrous policy decisions I have ever seen. You have crapped upon the working people of this country, but prostrated yourself before the rich and powerful, ensuring the biggest rise in inequality in this countrys history. You have handed over billions of pounds to ‘get rich quick spivs under the PFI scheme, whilst ensuring that this country will be paying for schools and hospitals for decades. You have overseen the destruction of what passes for a decent education, leading us to a situation where millions of kids only possess a rudimentary ability to read and write. You have stood by and watched as a bunch of corrupt, selfish, reckless bankers have destroyed our economy in the name of greed, and then used my taxes to bail the same bastards out. You pledged to ‘clean up politics, yet have indulged in offering cash for peerages and now this latest disgrace, lining your pockets with dodgy expense claims. On every level, your behaviour since 1997 is scandalous. The result of all your acts has left me, and millions like me, totally disenfranchised, with no-one who speaks for us and no party to vote for.

    The thorough thrashing you will receive in the upcoming election does not come close to alleviating the feelings of despair I have. I wont be happy until the body of Nu-Lab is hung upon a gibbet outside Westminster, with a placard placed around its neck, upon which is emblazoned:

    Behold this stinking corpse. It was a traitor to its people, a betrayer of its heritage and a criminal in its acts. May it rot in hell

    I despise you. I despise your party. I despise what you have done in my name. Go now.

  32. We haven't had "Most spectacularly shitting the bed" yet. Can think of a few, ahem, contenders.

    PS what on earth was Andrew Brown on about with his elipses piece the other day ? He's licked a toad too many I'd wager.

  33. your grace - the kind of post that has you hearing stirring music in the background, isn't it? just brilliant...

  34. *13thDukeofWybourne*
    That is truly memorable
    There was a similarly one last year from BrotherBig... see if I can find it...

  35. bitterweed - are you a regular follower of his blog? because that was one of his more coherent efforts...

    (by which i do not mean 'efforts?', but 'sigh...')

  36. Musty,

    Learn to spell, and trust me, anura are not made of chocolate....

  37. That is indeed a cracking post.

  38. PhilippaB
    Yes, it was obviously a trendy vicar piece, and less intellectually offensive than normal, and - no, I avoid him now because I had issues with him (and Mary Kenny) for a while a year ago when I wasn't very happy, and it was just getting completely out of hand - high blood pressure issues etc (not to mention earning longer in pre-mod than Steve McQueen)!!!
    I'm perfectly normal now...

  39. Dot,
    Here's a fucking O put it in yourself you pedantic
    Chocolate anura are indeed made of chocolate the clue is in the name. (happy with the spelling now?)
    I don't get any of this nonsense with BTH.

  40. And if you'll indulge me, the always excellent RedNorth's riposte to the Tories during their conference:

    So now to the trite agenda of the Tories here. Most of whom appear to be so dim they are as easy to manipulate as the clock of an old Morris Minor, turned back to some imaginary golden age of pre-welfare Empire Britain. The toxic byproducts of Thatcherism, as durable as radiation, and lingering over the nation like the fumes from her scorched earth policy of destroying our labour-intensive manufacturing. They're the British equivalent of the US poor who march against the 'socialised' prescription of a 'nazi' president

    They're too moronic to appreciate the incongruity of calling for more cuts, and hence more job losses, while at the same time vilifying the unemployed as scroungers. They cheered when Thatcher closed down my industry, coal mining, and made the nation reliant on foreign power companies and Mr Putin's gas (enjoying your energy bills?), they cheered as she laid waste to the law-abiding, hard working communities it sustained and turned them into ghettoes of mass unemployment, money-lenders, drug pushers and despair.

    Now they call upon the skilled tradesmen and workforce to dump their families and live ten to a room to be fruit pickers for some absentee farmer, because eastern Europeans 'can do it', they openly suggest eugenics as a means to curtail their offspring (see phrophetjackson's post above), and are openly nostalgic for pre-welfare days, when the children of the working class only had a 50% chance of reaching the age of 5.

    Benefits are 'too generous', despite being then lowest in the civilised world. 'Why the fuss about £25?' they scream, seemingly ignorant of the fact that this represents almost a third of a sick person's benefit, many of whom have always worked and are only now claiming what they have paid in for all their lives.

    There is no gutter too low for these people, no agenda too spiteful, too ignorant, too versed in hatred. A sceptic effluence from some 80s ideological test tube, still tilting against imaginary socialist windmills that exist only in their grotesquely infantile imaginations, where a banker/business backed Hitler was a 'soclalist'. Parochial warriors - their hedge defines their mind's limits. Cowards, who preside over a mouse and tft screen, ruling their little pixellated empires with the firm hand of the terminally inadequate, transposing their own failures onto others.

    'What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow
    Out of this stony rubbish?'

    TS Eliot

  41. Dot,
    Think I could get a bit of a buzz from licking the wasp nest?
    Ha ha, Oh God I think I've wet meself.

  42. Musty,

    I suggest you try it and see.....

    And since I'm pedantic anyway, I'm Charadrius, not Parus........

  43. Dotty,
    I wouldn't hold that against you mate, I'm C of E

  44. Found a picture of Dot and Colin not fighting!


  45. Edwin - it's hard to tell, but ... are they stuffed?

  46. thaumaturge
    That's no way to talk about a lady !

    Boom boom etc...

  47. Evening all

    Had to take a day off work today - major drama involving brat and friend up to all kinds of silliness during the night. Nothing illegal or life-threatening (apart from his mother strangling him of course) but resulted in no sleep until 5.30am. *Sigh.*

    The problem is, I was such a bloody awful teenager myself - and I mean awful - that I have to accept that I created this karma and have to take responsibility for it. He is certainly no worse than I was and probably a good deal better and more responsible if the truth be told. *'Nother big sigh*

    Is it too early for wine?

  48. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  49. BB

    Two attempts at looking on the bright side:

    1) I was a model teenager, however, by the time I reached my early 20s I'd had enough and went off and did lots of silly, illegal and life threatening things in other countries while travelling, maybe best out of his system now eh?

    2) It's never too early for wine....

  50. Edwin,
    Like me you can't do links. If anyone else can I'd like to see it though I can't talk for that half witted Plover.

  51. This half witted Plover managed to copy and paste the link, it's hardly rocket science, although obviously beyond no witted, anura licking mustelids.............

  52. Worst thread..the one that Matt Seaton's job's hanging by

    Best...the slight but golden thread of sanity running through everything Giyus posts

    Best commenter...tricky this one..was gonna go Hank Scorpio...sure he was around for some part of 2009..but fuck it my attractiveness, breeding and total lack of modesty demands that I say ..monkeyfish..I've already sent the judges a case of Champagne to lubricate the decision making process and arrive at the inevitable conclusion...is there anything in the rules about banned posters being ineligible?...'course not man... it's the Guardian..ultraliberal bastion of the free British press

    Worst commenter...anyone who disagrees with the above or anyone who uses the phrase "I'm a Bea Campbell fan"

  53. Stuffed or stoned thauma!

    - the woman in blue is clearly a goddess, blue being the colour of the madonna, ishtar and older and darker deities

    - the stoat is, well, Colin

    - the owl is Dot who is Minerva pretending to be a dotterel

  54. Thanks for that Dot. I shall go and find a bottle in a minute.

    MF - you can't recommend yourself!

  55. Thauma,
    Post a link to this thing will you?
    I know Dotterell has posted some meaningless bollocks about copy and paste and some such but while I would defend to the slight inconvenience his right to do such things I don't really feel it is me.

  56. Just clocked Jay Reily's post on the Paul Sagar thread....sublime

    #MF - you can't recommend yourself!#

    Oh right..good point...er...Sherbetfandango then

  57. BB - ooch. wine is your friend.

    would echo dot though - was annoyingly good meself in the teen years. when i eventually stopped holding in the crazy, trust me, it did not go well. this doesn't of course mean that you shouldn't strangle him.

  58. Woah - thought you meant Jay's first comment, MF - have just read the second and am right with you (and him) on that!

    But I always thought of Jay as a grumbly old bloke - was I wrong? heh heh

  59. Haven't got to the Paul Sagar thread yet - just been busy telling off Sue Gerhardt and her article about how all us working mums are making our children retarded.

  60. 'best commenter' thread is up. am conflicted. this is like being on desert island discs, i have too many records.

  61. That is one amazing post from Jay.


  62. BB - that does explain a lot...

  63. Evening all.

    CiF won't let me sign in. When I click the 'sign in' bit at the top of the page, I get one of those 'wrong page / doesn't work / piss off' messages. Any of you techies able to tell me what's up?

  64. Cancel the above, ta - I'm signed in now!

  65. right - off for pie and footy. and wine.

    just struck me - throw in biscuits and that's pretty much my perfect evening.

  66. Hmm, I'm having tech issues here and on CiF too MsChin.
    Anyway - was saying some geezer called Naibobiny has come up with something arsy on the Sagar thread.

  67. Oooh - I shall have a look at that then.

  68. I've only just realised that two hours ago I said I wanted a glass of wine and didn't actually pour myself one.

    Raising a glass now - cheers! o/

  69. Evening All

    Sorry, all hell broke loose at w*rk again in the late afternoon. Can see myself being forced to work through the hols. >:-(

    Agree with Dot on both counts (re teenagers and wine).


    Worst commenter...anyone who disagrees with the above or anyone who uses the phrase "I'm a Bea Campbell fan"

    To be fair, I don't think anyone has actually ever said this.

    Like the idea of recommending banned posters though!

    Stoaty - post link to what now?

    Had just started the Sagar thread when the shit hit the fan - will have to go back.

    BB - that Gerhardt article was just awful. Did you read the letter from JH?

    Right, off for a bit of cooking - will pop in as fag timing permits (how do non-smokers time things?).

  70. Women know your place...


    ....doing as your told and fetching men beer

  71. And try this for a bit of transcendent stupidity..

    #FIVE people who stared at the sun in the hope they might be witnessing religious apparitions are being treated for serious eye damage, a top eye surgeon has revealed.

    Reports of pilgrims to Knock seeing the sun dance in the sky and changing colour indicate serious eye damage.#


  72. Something tells me that, single mother on IS or not, that woman could certainly find herself a job if the chips were down. She is intelligent, articulate, and seems to have got it all down to a fine art.

    Now I am not getting all sanctimonious and "they should go out to work, scroungers!" by any stretch of the imagination. But on the other hand I can't help thinking that there are people far worse off and with far fewer life skills and (presumed) qualifications than she has who really do need a hand up in life, and she is just playing the system to an extent because she has decided she will be a single mother on IS.

    I hope thinking like that doesn't make me a horrible person, but some people help themselves while other people just take the piss. OK - people are more than entitled to still breastfeed when their child is a year old if that is what they want. But using that as an excuse for not even going to the bloody DWP interview? Why can't the little bugger have expressed milk in a bottle just for once? Is she scared he might turn into a lager lout if he does?

  73. BB - I've only read such an astonishing sense of entitlement from bankers and MPs before.

  74. BB

    I know someone, an ex-civil service manager, who ended up on benefits through absolutely no fault of her own, with 2 kids to raise. 12 years later (and only a couple of years left to the end of her mortgage on a 4 bed detached house with garage) she is adamant that she should 'be there' for her kids and shouldn't be expected to work because she'll be worse off!

  75. BB

    And thanks for the big up!


  76. I'm going to say something really bitchy now, because it is about someone I grew to be quite close to eventually and almost got over my resentment of her 100%, but years ago there was a woman in our Buddhist group that used to drive me bloody mad because of this very same sense of entitlement as a single-mother. She was intelligent, educated to degree level, bright, personable. And would not work.

    She lived in a fantastic cottage in a little hamlet in leafy Hampshire, paid for by the council. Her son was given a scholarship to the local fee-paying school - no doubt he was a bright enough lad, but not Einstein by any stretch of the imagination - she spent her days pottering about doing things she liked, didn't work, managed to run a car that was newer and shinier than mine (which isn't hard really cos I only drive old bangers as a point of principle - not into the "exterior signs of wealth" bit really) and still managed to moan and whine and have my husband.... MY husband!... at her bloody beck and call because he was the Buddhist leader for the area and she was part of his flock.

    (OK, maybe I was a bit jealous cos she was a raven-haired beauty as well....)

    There I was working full time and studying part time with a baby - ok, I had a husband too, who was earning a decent whack - but it used to make me seethe.

  77. MsChin

    I think that is where the balance is all wrong. I am not suggesting that benefits should be lower, but that salaries and associated benefits, including after-school care or creches, should be better so that people who want to work can do so. It doesn't sound like the person you are talking about had a sense of entitlement, but merely a patch of bad luck which caught her up in the benefits trap as a result.

  78. BB

    I am not suggesting that benefits should be lower, but that salaries and associated benefits, including after-school care or creches, should be better so that people who want to work can do so.

    Exactly. Except I would go so far as to say, "those who are capable of work should do so".

    And it should be made a lot easier for those who are capable of, say, only part-time or short-time work to do so without fighting off the benefits police and falling in and out different policies.

  79. BB - sounds like a bad night; hope you're all ok.
    My only consolation - well, sort of - with my daughter is that now she's at uni I don't actually *know* what she's up to... although when she called me at 2am the other night I nearly hit the ceiling panicking. You can imagine my reaction when a slurred voice asked how to reset her ipod, 'cos it's broken and I don't want it to be...'

  80. Where's bitterweed?

    Can I respectfully ask you to read what I wrote on the Record Labels thread? I saw what you posted, and I know exactly where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with you.

    And if you haven't done it already, you need to set up your own band website with clips of your songs to listen to for free and tracks downloadable for 50p each tied up with PayPal. :o)

  81. Precisely thaum!

    Shaz - the laddo and friend (friend having had a row with his mum) decided it might be fun to do a Thelma and Louise on Southern Rail. Luckily laddo had money on him so at least they weren't bunking fares. Friend's mum and us going spare, another friend getting texts saying they might be going to Brighton etc.

    Police called, panic all round, then British Transport Police call at 2.30am to say they had found them at Victoria and could we go and pick them up at their centre at Waterloo. Got home about 5.00.... nightmare.

    "You should have known I would come home" said the lad. Yeah, same way I should have known he wasn't dead or injured in a ditch somewhere, or attacked by lager louts, or run over, or any number of vile thoughts that go through your mind...

  82. BB
    I'm here, just read Jay's post. It's a BEAUTY.
    A very good, late contender for post of the year if you ask me.

    As for the music thing; it ain't really my beef as I don't need to make a living from it, and I'm working as a hired gun so to speak, but I know that there aren't any posts ever by muscicians (apart from those right at the bottom of their career, or who already have other incomes) who like this current model at all. And yet CiF never asks them to write... funny old world

    It's like discussing closing down the pits without interviewing miners. No wait, they did that. LOL, anyway, not a fight I want to get into here ;-)

  83. BB

    No, my example does have that sense of entitlement, I'm afraid. And I too have been forced onto benefits because of circumstances beyond my control, but did as you did, and studied + did voluntary work. I was financially worse off than on benefits, but the kids never went without. It's that old working class 'don't be beholden to nob'dy' thing in me, I guess.

  84. BB

    Blimey, busy night then. The worst punishment for the lad may be removal of his musical instrument(s), but then again, does that constitute cruel and degrading treatment?

    Honest, they do grow up. Eventually. Or so I'm led to believe.

  85. BB
    Thats exactly the sort of thieving budhist bastard who file shares (i.e never pays for a sodding thing) so she can listen to stuff on her ipod in her audi and then claims it a victory against capitalism.


    I love those audi driving budhists.

  86. Bitterweed

    Why not email Natalie Hannan with the suggestion of an article from the point of view of the musicians? God knows, every other bugger has had their say on the subject!


    I know what you mean about the "beholden" bit. My dad was quite clear that if I didn't pass my O Levels I would be weighing up sweets in Woolworths, but I wouldn't be on the dole while I was under his roof, and I think a lot of that has rubbed off.

    On the other hand, I was on the dole when I was in France for a good while, largely because I had an insurance policy that paid my mortgage when I was made redundant, and job seekers out there is 56% of your gross monthly salary for 6 months (or it was then - dunno if it still is) whether you were a professional footballer or a dustman. As long as you had put money into the system for the requisite period of time, you could take it out again. No bloody point in working. I chose to "rest" and write detective novels that I never managed to get published...

  87. RE cruel and degrading - yes, it would be a very severe punishment, but it would also punish us to a certain extent because his guitar is also his therapy in a sense.

    Bitterweed - would you believe me if I told you I drove a W Reg Daewoo? And my old man drives a Y reg jap car too?

    I don't believe in cars. Well, I believe they exist, but I don't believe in flash cars for the sake of it. Strictly getting from A to B with the least hassle for me.

    And while we are on the subject of theiving, I suppose you never made a mix tape for anyone in your youth then? :p

    I don't leech stuff. I will pick up a track here, an album there, if someone gives it a recce. If I like it I will buy it and all the rest of their stuff if it is a band I didn't know. If I don't, I never listen to it again (and I would never have bought it in the first place).

  88. "Worst commenter...anyone who disagrees with the above or anyone who uses the phrase "I'm a Bea Campbell fan"

    #To be fair, I don't think anyone has actually ever said this.#



    Gotta learn that linking stuff soon

  89. Just to clarify, I am all for empowering the musicians to earn more money and not be slaves to the fat-cat bastards at Sony and Universal. There is a kind of esoteric mystery mumbo-jumbo that seems to surround music production and distribution that has everyone convinced that only the big guys can do it and make money for the bands. The sooner that myth is well and truly busted, and we get back to the way music should be, which is a relationship between the listener and the performer, the better.

    Anyone else feel that kind of early 70s feeling about the place? Like a new punk-esque revolution is on its way for music? I sure as f00k hope so... bye bye Bono and Simon Cowell. Good riddance.

  90. BB - good grief, what a night. That calm assumption that you should know they're going to be all right - argh!

    Would like to second recommendations for Jay's post.

  91. Bitterweed - soz! I thought you were talking about me being the Audi-driving Buddhist!

    *so insecure... so very insecure... sniff*

    Shaz - tell me about it. Part of me wanted to hug him for half an hour, the other part wanted to put my hands round his throat Homer Simpson stylee and "Why you liddle..."

  92. BB
    Hmm could do, but it's probably not "edgy" enough a subject. See I'm not arguing for the industry... I've worked in it briefly, and it clearly sucks, but I would have to go into boring details such as recording techniques to convince peope it can't all be done in a dustbin for fourpence hapenny, for instance. Or to disabuse people of the myth that touring makes decent (i.e pay the rent and eat) money for most artists... mythology I'm afraid.

    Showing me age mebbe. Another anti. Check out posts by stevehill and Iuean, both middle aged ex music-industry posters for som real insight.

    Completely changing the subjuct, I watched a 4/5ths excellent sci fi movie the other night (spoiled by a silly ending) which had some superb graphics and a great soundtrack by your very own "car alarm up a snakes arse" meisters Underworld. Which only goes to show, I can be wrong sometimes.

    Ha ha

    It was called Sunshine, and I can only presume would be awesome on shrooms. Not that I've done them since I stacked shelves for Warner Atlantic ;-)

  93. BB - sounds like a nightmare and glad the lad is OK.

    My colleague (the good one, not the skiving useless one) has had a couple of scares with his lad lately and it's worrying to see a good man with good ethics etc. in that state. Luckily his lad is OK too, although I think he got into a spot of trouble today that he refused to explain to Dad - we suspect it might actually just have sonething to do with Dad's xmas pressie or an experiment, but Dad wasn't happy!

    MF - going to look at that now....

  94. BB
    No not *you* silly bb, was talking about the budhist biatch wot ripped you off ! Hope that's cleared that up me duck

    Down with fatcats etc


  95. Oh bloody hell, MF, that doesn't count!

  96. Right, off to investigate Jay's bloody brilliant post....

  97. thaumaturge
    It's a forking doozy
    10/10 to JR

  98. Bitterweed

    Yep, they did the soundtrack with John Murphy, but said Mr Murphy was a bit pissed off at them getting star billing - Danny Boyle who produced the movie is a huge fan of theirs, Trainspotting an' all - so the soundtrack has never been released!

    If you don't object to me sending you stuff that nobody has paid for cos they can't, I can dig out a lovely version of the main theme from Sunshine with some spoken word over the top of it by Rick Smith's Welsh dad, called To Heal And Restore (Broken Bodies). Also, the closing choon - the "Hallellujah" one - is called Peggy Sussed, and I know I have a boot of that knocking about from their Frankfurt gig that was broadcast on the web. If you're interested, 'course

  99. I think the most worrying thing about being a teenager is that you are convinced of your own immortality and think you know everything you need to know about the world.

    And it is only when you are in your late 20s that the truth actually dawns on you...

  100. Great BB, would love to hear it!
    I reckon the Grateful Dead masterminded the whole bootleg economy, and two of my best mates are massive dead fans, yet they both spend about 80-100 quid amonth on music. I can't win ;-) Speak soon luverly

    Right, I'm *gasp* off to bed, ridiculously hurly start for me. Cheers bananas !

  101. And it is only when you are in your late *40s* that the truth actually dawns on you...

  102. Night BW - will sort out some linkys for you.

  103. Sunshine was v. good (the psycho killer bit was poor though), and Cilian Murphy is gorgeous (says a straight man).
    However if you want an even better, semi-existential space movie, I thoroughly recommend Moon, which came out earlier this year. Blood great,Sam Rockwell outstanding (check out Confessions of a Dangerous Mind too)plus spot on visuals that reference cerebral 70s space flicks (like 2001, Silent Running etc)

  104. Nice one.
    Right, I'm definitely off now

    PS please you lot - do check out Butterflies and Wheels... some great stuff there, right up youse alleys most of it.



  105. Cilian Murphy is gorgeous in that film.

    Spoiler warning - do not read if you want to watch the film!!

    The psycho-killer is a bit daft, but I did love the very last scene of the movie when the sun starts to come out again, though, and you see his wife (is it? long time I've seen it) and his daughter looking up into the sky knowing he has succeeded even if he is dead.

  106. alasdair

    Great post about MAM

    Never seen him lost an argument
    - Never seen him win one either. With him the arguments shift like the sand.

    Spot on!

  107. What's happened to my once great country? Once we produced grizzled bears such as Noel Purcell, Brendan Behan, Richard Harris and...errr....Brenda Fricker.

    Now it's all Cillian Murphy, Pierce Brosnan and Jonathan Rhys Meyers. They're all so......bleedin' metrosexual.

  108. Been reading through Sagar's thread and still haven't got to Jay's brilliance, damn it ... unless I missed it, but I doubt it!

    Will keep going for a wee while but am fading fast at this point.

  109. RE

    Cracking response to calmseas there, mate!


    2nd wot BB said

    But Jay gets the Jaffa cake today.

  110. Hi all. BB-Seconded strongly on the Bono and Cowell thing. I also think that those that can work, should work. Helps to hold up the social structure (Not perfect I know) does it not? Good footy today, Ciddy bossed it mostly. First two goals were crackers, Bellamy played well but he is a dickhead. I think he went to the Robbie Savage Academy of discipline. Jay-Fine post on the Sagar thread.

  111. RapidEddie

    Colm Meaney?

    Bit D-list I know. But he's certainly grizzled.

  112. Hey boudican!

    Eddie - metrosexual men are hawt. I dunno why I have always found that the be the case. Probably says something deeply dark and freudian about me (and probably why I ended up with an ex-husband and an ex-bf who left me for other men....or maybe that is just the effect I have on men!!)

  113. BB - sympathies. My eldest is 8 and I've been dreading teenagery since she was an hour old. She's already acting like one half the time.

    Also enjoyed Sunshine. Was Cillian Murphy the one with the eyes. Is indeed very 'beautiful'. Made me 7.6% more gay just looking at him. Queen Elizabeth would have been all over him.

    Love film has just sent me Dead Snow - it's a Norwegian film about Nazi zombies (tag line: Eins, Zwei, Die) [was it discussed here? Can't remember]. That's Friday night sorted.

  114. well, i'm 75c better off thanks to city spanking the arse (as t'were). hurrah.

  115. OK, my post hasn't appeared. Some strange shit going on today.

  116. 75 centimes? Wow. You could prolly buy a Carambar with that! :o)

  117. I'm being cautious to protect my chances of being able to withdraw my 100% initial stake bonus, thus gaining myself a massive €10.

    Every little bit helps.

    Am laughing out loud at the CIFFY thread - hermione's on a blinder - although am a bit puzzled that someone has nominated me as 'sexy'.

    Quoi? Somebody else had me down as 'hard to spell', I think that's probably more accurate...

  118. Fence - as long as I get through the other end of it with both of us alive, and neither of us in nick or on crack, I will consider it a job well done. :o)

  119. PhilippaB, 'hard to spell'.
    Try my first name. Several on here alone have got it wrong, and damn near everyone at work does too. I actually don't mind, as I answer to most things, including the wife's dogwhistle.
    (Oh, and I genuinely don't mind, so don't feel guilty if you got it wrong)

  120. Alisdair - neither do i (unless the poster also annoys me with their thoughts, in which case, every little helps, heh heh) - if I've screwed it up it's due to being mid-translation of the address for the daughter of an Alastair friend of the family.

    And my middle name's 'Clare'. What the hell were they thinking?

    I wasn't kidding on Waddya when I said my own father can't spell it ore that 50% of the time...

  121. Reading the thread on Zoe Williams' Elf-n-Safety piece. It really is all about the lawyers. I work in public liability claims for a public authority. We had a claim go to court where a guy was walking his dog where someone had recently burn out a stolen car, and tripped on a damaged kerbstone. Our lawyers advised us to fight it, and won - the judge said the damage to the kerbstone was obvious, the claimant should have been looking where he was going, 100% contributory negligence on the part of the claimant, case dismissed. On the way out our lawyers offered his lawyers a grand and a quarter to avoid any appeal. Still scratching my head over that one.

  122. Must be something about fathers. I remember my dad asking me when I was about 11 or 12 how I spell my name. I should have said, "well you fucking gave it to me, so why not try to cast your mind back a bit, eh,pater?".
    Of course I didn't (though I have told him to fuck right off several times, including on a holiday this year, gulp: not a tremendous idea when myself and my wife were guests).

  123. Alisdair

    I am 47 and I still don't dare say the F-word in front of my dad! /:o

  124. Alright, me darlin's, time I wasn't here.

    "Time for bed" said Zebedee

    Night night xx

  125. BB - I never used to but having heard my father's outburst on the Anglican's fudge of women bishops / homosexuality (bear in mind that a Methodist/Anglican 'merger' has been a gently bubbling topic for many years), I figured I might as well just go for it.

  126. PhilippaB-What odds will you give me on the right side of Manchester prevailing over the pretenders? (I know that many love to hate the lord of Govan) On the spiritual side, shall we say, your dad must have some serious conundrums to deal with in this age of question and challenge. Reading your posts tells me that he did a pretty good job raising you.Best to you .