27 May 2010


Simeon I became the first Emperor of Bulgaria in 893.  Women from the Bolivian city of Cochabamba fought the Spanish army in the Battle of La Coronilla in 1812.  The bubonic plague struck San Francisco in 1907.  An earthquake shook the island of Java in 2006, killing around 6000 people.

Born today:  Wild Bill Hickock (1837-1876), Dashiell Hammett (1894-1961), Rachel Carson (1907-1964), John Cheever (1912-1982), Herman Wouk (1915), Christopher Lee (1922), Tony Hillerman (1925-2008), John Barth (1930), Louis Gossett, Jr. (1936), Cilla Black (1943), Siouxsie Sioux (1957), Paul Gascoigne (1967) and Jamie Oliver (1975).

It is Children's Day in Nigeria.


  1. Hi All --Just home.

    Montana, as a fan of yours, I must say you were a bit harsh on other posters here. Generally tend to stay detached from the conflicts here, but feel that most were touched and perplexed by a unique case. We of course will not all agree, but that should not be a reason for acrimony. Rape is an ugly, hurtful act and I don't think anyone here is naive enough to take it lightly. My tuppence, for what it's worth.

    deano--The canine brain can psychoanalyse us in seconds. They know us and quite often own us too. I'm cool with that , as are many here.

    Duke, Paul, James, and other footies,looking forward to the Mundial. Yes Duke, you're right, the Dutch don't defend as well as a contender should, but will be good to watch. Rinus is long gone, but there are residual effects from his beautiful football mind.

    James, thauma--Would be cool to see Algeria vs France, but highly unlikely. Should England take Algeria lightly they could pay dearly, as the north African lads have played together far more than England. Cohesion can trump talent and often does in big events.

  2. I appreciate the kind words that were said on yesterday's thread, but I get the feeling that some of you think that my anger at the tone of BB's response to my first comment Tuesday morning was in some way exacerbated by unresolved pain stemming from the sexual assaults that I referred to or some behind-the-scenes stress that you think I may be going through right now. I assure you that that is not the case.

    I felt and continue to feel, that her response to me was patronising and dismissive. Nothing that she said on Wednesday did anything to change that feeling. On the contrary, quite frankly, they only increased my irritation.

    You claimed yesterday that you didn't mention your own sexual abuse as a bit of one-upmanship or to imply that you had dealt with yours in a healthier way than I had.

    I was also assaulted as a child by a piano teacher. I didn't tell anyone about it until I was in my late 20s. But we seem to have a very different perception of what that means about life.

    What other purpose could that statement possibly serve but to imply that I am only seeing the case through a haze of unresolved pain?

    And you claimed yesterday that there was nothing patronising about saying that you were commenting based on your professional training.

    Your experience is personal - mine is professional, and frequently involves dealing with all kinds of allegations made by children either in the criminal or the family justice system.

    I'm sorry, but you are far too intelligent and, as a lawyer, far too skilled in the use of language to have not intended an implication that your professional opinion carried more weight than my personal opinion.

  3. As for this:

    If she had read my later posts yesterday, she would realise that I was not even saying I believed the girl did lie, just that there was clear evidence that she could have lied,

    Well, I did read your later posts on Tuesday. The only concession that you gave to that effect was in response to MsChin. You said:

    I am not saying that the little girl did lie. I am saying that there is a possibility that she lied, which, had we have been dealing with adults, would have meant it was chucked out at half time. There must be reasonable doubt.

    And while there was medical evidence, it wasn't evidence that supported the original claim of rape, nor was there any of the boys' DNA on the girl's clothing

    Given that this is what you had to say on Monday:

    "Doctors and nurses" is now attempted rape and sexual assault, it seems.


    I've no need to tell you about the way in which kids tell fibs if they think they might be in trouble. And I can't help feeling that this is what has happened in this case, given that she admitted in court that she had made it up. It just doesn't sit right.

    and there was this on Tuesday, before MsChin reiterated the point she had made on Monday about the consistency of the girl's story prior to being in adult court, witness statements and medical evidence:

    The little girl described herself to the judge as having been "a bit naughty" and admitted pulling her own knickers down. I can remember being "a bit naughty" in exactly that way when I was that sort of age, in our garage with Sean from across the road. He got his out, I got mine out*.

    I can remember being 10 and being kissed by a boy called Paul from Liverpool and liking it very much then being worried I might be pregnant, because the only idea I had about sex was that people kissed then had babies.

    If my very puritanical mum had caught me, I would have been terrified and can quite easily imagine myself saying in both situations "well, he made me do it", I am pretty sure. And without having even the slightest inkling of what that would have meant in adult terms.

    So you've actually made your opinion -- one that really has nothing to do with your professional training -- quite clear. You believe that the little girl was lying because she was afraid of getting into trouble. Now, if you had said that your personal opinion is as valid as mine, you would have been correct. But you are dressing up a personal opinion as a professional one to try to give yourself an authority on this that you just don't have and that is what is patronising.

  4. Morning all. Have shuffled friends off back to Blighty and been catching up with the UT after a quiet night yesterday (note: do not under any circumstances consider watching 'Outlaw' - the cast looks good, the premise OK, but trust me, the script is shit and part of it looks like it's been filmed on a malfunctioning mobile phone).

    Not sure how to respond on the issue of the two boys convicted of attepted rape - to my mind, the use of an adult court was utterly inappropriate, which appears to be the view of the judge as well (and a pointt stressed by several people here).

    That is entirely separate from taking a view on the case itself, but, again as several people have said, it's bloody difficult to make the separation. As BB said, she has had the training connected to her job to retain objectivity in such matters and concentrate on the 'legals' - given how difficult it is to stay objective on this issue, this can perhaps look chilly, but I don't think it was meant that way. But I think Montana/MsChin were right to highlight the difficulties for the girl in the case.

    I hope this doesn't lead to a 'breach' - none of us can know exactly what happened, so all observations can only be that, all opinions only personal, however formed. All I can say is that reading the case report was saddening on so many levels. A different system for dealing with allegations like this is needed...and a different approach in general (as outlined by medve - good list on the 'good sex ed') also.

    Anyway. Have 'formation' for job this afternoon. Bit nervous. Do you thnk they will still want me when they realise my IT skills are next to nothing? Eep.

  5. It's good to read that you are alive and kicking Montana.

    I think that you are equally 'inteligent and skilled in the use of language'. I also think that you make a mistake in believing that you can read something as crass as misguided superiority/authority from the hasty writing that folk offer here at UT.

    Fortunately the acres of UT are wide enough to accommodate all shades of opinion and certainly two great posters like yourself and BB.

    The point you missed yesterday was that BB did in fact (copied below in next post) recognise that she could have phrased her contribution differently to better effect. Patronising cows don't do that they would rather be dead than admit that what they offer could be improved.

  6. Montana - glad your OK.

    Re peronal and professional. I didn't read it that way I think professional opinion can be warped can't it? a disadvantage in everyday discourse?

    For example my daughter's 'sister in law' is a social worker and has a very negative view of the parenting skills of poor people because she is constantly confronted with bad examples.

    But we should all beware of comparing our experience with others because its impossible to more than approximately understand how other's feel. Even if we experience exactly the same thing we are different people and our response will be different.

    I've stayed out of this so far - hate rows want them to stop. When I really care about both of you (and I do) its even worse...

    So I won't say any more
    Anne xxx

  7. "...........and Deano is probably right when he says that, had I worded that differently, it would have come across better........."

    That is what BB posted here yesterday

  8. deano,annetan42-good heartfelt posts, in a peaceful vein. And deano, nobody else could get away with the patronising cows bit.(-:

    PhilippaB--Best of luck, but your ability and creativity will decide the job issue, so I feel you should be fine.

    Pushing 2am, sacktime. Laters.

  9. ".......Do you thnk they will still want me when they realise my IT skills are next to nothing?......"

    People who employ on the basis of an assumed skill level rather than all round thinking ability are fucking nuts.

    You should walk it, I'd employ you in a flash.

    Good luck young miss.

  10. Mornin' all....

    Thought this might be of interest....


  11. thank you, dear chaps! have already come up with a plan to use their system during the world cup, as a bit of funnin', so hopefully my geek credentials have been sufficiently demonstrated...

    re the 'big dogs' conversation recently, am reminded of Bilbo, the dog owned by the manager of a local pub. If they ever remae the Hound of the Baskervilles, Bilbo would be up there on the casting list. He's ginormous. I asked Caro, his owner, what type of dog he was - she said that when they got him, he was a puppy, with a black lab mother, whose owner said he wasn't sure what the father was. After a couple of months when Bilbo had grown to the size of the sofa, she ran into the guy who'd sold him to her - "ah yes", he said, "we think we've worked it out - there's a great dane lives down the road..."

    fortunately Bilbo is a gentle soul, or there'd be chaos. you justt have to keep a good distance back when he's happy, as his tail wagging can knock grown men off bar stools...

    is it really true that dogs have no sense of relative size? because some of the mini-er dogs who pop into the pub just go for him. luckily he tends to ignore them and just roll his eyes, as I'm pretty sure he could eat a chihuahua as a snack.


  12. I’m so tired of hearing my own voice moaning about the state of the UK, the problems, the concentration of wealth, the poor, the corporate state I keep thinking I’ll give it a rest; but when you read Ian Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms and the academies legislation, my heart weeps, it really does for the future of the UK.

    Let’s look at the young starting out. If they are not the son/daughter of wealth, they are screwed. There was the case of Vicky Harrison, who committed suicide during the election after 200 job applications were rejected. How many more thousands of young people are feeling similar extreme stress at the moment? At the same time of this suicide the Tories were parading their new billboard- ‘let’s cut benefits for those who refuse to work’. The timing would be comical if it wasn’t so tragic.

    - 2.5 million people are out of work, with 1 million of these classed as young people.
    - 10% of the workforce are underemployed
    - 1/3 of the entire workforce are paid so low that they have to take on a second job to make ends meet.

    And what has the ‘New Politics’ delivered in response this week? Promised budget slashes to ‘reassure’ the markets.

    Additionally, the Tories have promised to abolish the Future Jobs Fund, the New Labour engineered, six month contract, minimum wage, low skilled work placement. In its place, they appear to be reintroducing the YTS.

    So what is the alternative for the motivated, intelligent young person from a modest background who wishes to get on in life? Tertiary education fees will not be abolished, indeed it looks as if they will be increased thus squeezing out more and more students of modest background. Holding down minimum wage jobs, working all hours under the sun or workfare, that’s the choice increasingly facing more and more of today’s young.

    At the same time, IDS is underway with his press ganging of the sick into workfare as eloquently and passionately outlined by princesschipchops.

    Make no mistake; the UK is facing as intense a class war as there ever was in the 20th Century. The elite disingenuously lay the blame for the market and banking engineered recession on the poorest and most vulnerable of UK society, triumphally proclaiming war on the poorest through Murdoch and the Mail’s media outlets.

    As MsChin pointed out on a thread yesterday, the UK’s 54 billionaires paid a total of £14.7m on a combined wealth of £126billion. That’s £126 thousand million between 54 people taxed at lower rates than the lowest earners. Yet the Tories and Lib Dems will continue to blame the most vulnerable whilst at the same time destroying any prospects the poorest and most vulnerable in society have.

    This is class war, waged by a Political elite on behalf of the business and banking elite. And I’m sorry if I’m bringing anyone down but it severely depresses me that in the 21st Century, in a Western developed country, this is the situation millions of young, workers and poor find themselves in.

  13. PhilippaB:

    Good to see you again.


    Glad you're back and thanks for the great pic. Reminds me of the kids in Ghana, brought back some really lovely memories ;)

    If OK with all, I will not intrude nor offer any opinions on the dispute.

    (Perhaps this is the cowards way out, but I feel as I have only been posting intermittently and more regularly of late, it's not right of me to do so)

  14. Your Grace - not bringing anyone down, it's the key issue - Deb Orr's piece today is perhaps a bit patchy, but this bit got me:
    "I am in no way opposed to ending child poverty. It's just that I think you do that by ending adult poverty"
    The focus on 'the poor kiddies' is, while a worthy goal, a bit of a distraction from the systemic problems...

    Having had a bit of experience of the Academies system, btw, I've been biting my lip and trying not to go on at great length about how badly that was screwed up from a VAT perspective, of which the new plans seem to be similarly unaware. Headlines about 'choice' all very well but the dull stuff is what gets you. And they still haven't sorted that out. Berks.

  15. Duke:

    Don't be tired of your own voice. That's a sobering post there.

    I did flirt with the idea this morning of pretending I was a rabid Tory in order to defend myself in the coming months and years, as our 'PM' Cameroon, child of the most uber-priviledged background, soothed us all with platitudes like he was a 'nice, caring-sharing, sort of guy'....yeah, right.

  16. Philippa:

    Will go and check out the Deborah Orr thread... meant to read that one ;)

  17. Excuse me for intevening in this episode of personal grief but Montana is absolutely correct when she says:

    "I felt and continue to feel, that her response to me was patronising and dismissive. Nothing that she said on Wednesday did anything to change that feeling. On the contrary, quite frankly, they only increased my irritation."

    It was the 13 March 2009 when I was first mentioned here and the 19 May 2009 when BB first wrote about me in relation to her first article ATL on CiF. Yet it was 6 December 2009 when I first posted on your site Montana.

    But during that time you have hosted over 400 posts that mentioned me, many of them far more vile that anything I've ever contemplated about you or other UTs, yet alone published. Just three days ago we had HankScorpio making his tired much repeated accusation of paedophilia, albeit with his addled brain confusing it with transgenderism. Unless he was being deliberately homophobic, which I doubt. Then there were the accusations of matricide and murderous misogyny along with me having illicit sexual relations with members of the Guardian's staff.

    However I can take such abuse with a shrug of the shoulders because I've never deluded myself that anyone I've only met on the internet can ever be anything other than a one dimensional passing acquaintance. Whereas if you commit yourself to being 'best friends', then when their true character begins to manifest itself, it clearly can be very painful, as you and others have discovered. Witness the recent outbursts by PaulBJ, who from his gushing empathy with anyone he feels has suffered a wrong, has still to learn this lesson.

    So for what it's worth Montana your analysis of BB's character is spot on and confirms what others have observed, that she is patronising and dismissive. She knows for instance that I have posted enough about immigration procedures to prove that my reason for spending some of my time in China is sufficiently genuine and to do with my business, to render as nonsense the jibes of HankScorpio and JayReilly among others. Yet she has allowed these jibes to pass by without comment, while bathing in the adulation of her admirers.

  18. Can I be the one to say piss off Bitey this time?

    I personally didn't like BBs comments about the rape case, I did think she was using her job to say her opinion was more valid than anyone elses but since she is such a brilliant and kind poster normally I am willing to admit that I might have got the wrong end of the stick.

    She is a million times better than you Bitey (with your weird stalky ways) and I will always give her opinions a serious thinking about.

    I can understand why Montana is so pissed off though.

    Another fantastic post by the Duke.

  19. Difficult to understand how something as complex as:

    "..... analysis of BB's character .."

    can be deduced from a medium which at best affords...

    "... .. anything other than a one dimensional passing acquaintance ....."

  20. La Rit

    Excellent comment on the Deborah Orr article.

  21. Morning all


    ''Witness the recent outbursts by PaulBJ, who from his gushing empathy with anyone he feels has suffered a wrong, has still to learn this lesson.''

    Whatever issues you have with BB are none of my business.It,s strictly between you and her.I would
    therefore be grateful if you didn,t mention my name
    in any 'spats' you have with either BB or anyone else
    here.For the record i had a one-off car crash moment
    on UT which i hope is resolved and therefore seen as being in the past with most people here.

    @Philippa-good luck with the job.

    @Duke-great post as always.

  22. Oh I forgot to say welcome back and good luck this afternoon Philippa.

    This maybe a cheeky question Philippa but do you still look as young as you do in your Cif ATL picture, you look about 11. x

  23. Cheers PB - there's some really good posts on that thread!

    I quite like that Diarmidwp....

  24. Very good post, Duke, i hadnt heard they had promised to abolish minimum wage? Surely not?

    I think globalisation is a big issue here - low wages are central to the current state of our "welfare scroungers". And of course they are - we now compete with global labour - that is the whole point: reducing costs, be it labour, materials, whatever. We now have a gap between "natural" wage levels at the bottom and what people will naturally work for - instead of capital picking up that slack (as free market theory dictates) society does instead via tax and welfare.

    I dont see how a growing level of wealth inequality is avoidable in the current globalised world where everyone must compete with the global labour pool; profits increase, wages fall.

  25. Again La Rit sterling work on the Bonnie Catholic abortion article.

    I am glad that a lot of other posters took her to task for her dishonesty as well.

    I had a surgical abortion when I was 19 and I have never regretted it, it was the right thing to do for me and for the child who might have resulted from that pregnancy.

    I never thought twice about it and I am just so glad that it was an option for me.

    I don't have a missing bit that should be filled up with a baby and Cath Elliots description of 'New Feminism' made me feel ill.

  26. Jesus christ Hazel Blears is going to replace Diane Abbot on the This Week sofa!

    I really can't believe it.

  27. jennifera

    ''Jesus christ Hazel Blears is going to replace Diane Abbot on the This Week sofa!''

    Blears is under 5ft so they,ll probably stick her on
    a high chair.Unless they plonk her on several cushions
    on the sofa so she won,t look so much like a dwarf
    sitting next to Portillo.

  28. Yr grace

    Its appalling isn't it? IDS removing welfare benefits and forcing
    people to apply for non existent jobs and Gove privatising education.
    can just see the future, sick and disabled people begging on the streets
    and school children forced to wear the corporate logos of their schools
    sponsoring businesses - for products their families could never afford.

    People could make a small step in the right direction here by helping to prevent that reptilian arsehole Trump from destroying a perfectly beautiful piece of Scottish coastline which also happens to be an SSSI

  29. Jay,

    sorry if you picked up what I said wrongly. The Tories aren't aiming for the minimum wage. Yet.

    They are stopping the roll out of further Future Jobs Fund jobs Page 3 here, this is despite Cameron's pre-election pledge whilst on a tour of Liverpool where he said that the FJF was "a good scheme" and

    "we've got to help people who are unemployed for a long time and social enterprises like this help. It demonstrates where giving more power and control to projects like these works"

    Obviously by giving "more power and control to projects like these", he means slashing the spending towards it.

    This is the 'New Politics' people, Reptilian. Get used to it.

  30. jen - the reaction to the abortion article was rather heartening, per boulderboy:

    "What a great indication of the power of the web, and the nature of CiF.

    40 mins after the article is posted, sources for the stats have been found and shown to be dubious, the author has been called on claiming that another author has said something she didn't (the straw-man), phrases like 'growing number of mps' have been looked into and corrected/put into context and the author's own political/religious starting points outlined when she attempted to obfuscate them in the content of the article.

    bloody wonderful."

    I think there's a prevailing view amongst some people that being 'pro' something (choice, gay marriage, what-have-you) means you want to make it mandatory. Well, I would never... is not a valid response on this issue - just want to say good for you, well done. now leave the rest of us alone.

    talk of abortion being 'normalised' that isn't, I think, promoting it as the best thing ever!, but trying to make it normal to talk about a perfectly legal medical procedure that might, just might be the best thing for a particular woman at a particular time in her life. everyone has to make that decision themselves - right for you is the key. and thank whatever that the option is there. good for you.

    (plus - pic was when actually about 27, now look rather less pious and fresh-faced...heh heh)

  31. That was a pleasant walk.

    I did not know that Armadius was not in fact part of Mozart's name - just heard that fact on the radio.

    Perhaps I'm wrong and it is possible to deduce character from internet posting.

    The thought occurred to me what sort of cunt would chose 'bitethehand' as a moniker.

    If Mungo had had the name 'bitethehand' when we met I would have still chosen him.

    If he had then bit my hand I would at first instance have given him the benefit of the doubt. Had he done it a second time he would have had a stern talking to. Had he bitten my hand three times I would have kicked his cock from her to next Wednesday.

    I would then have banged my head firmly against a wall for choosing a fucking stupid dog.

    Tell you what Bitey my friend if I were a Chinaman and you were advising me which education establishment in the UK to send my son or daughter to, and I found out that you were an internet poster with the monikers you have chosen for yourself.............well I would have to say fuck off you pretentious cunt.

    Perhaps therefore we do leave traces of our character in our posts. Perhaps it's just our intelligence that we leave behind.

  32. 27? ha

    My sister who is 4 years younger than me (that means she is 35) still has to carry her passport around with her.

    She gets age checked every time she tries to buy booze or fags (she is a heavy smoking piss head so it happens often) and I hate her for it.

    I have never been aged checked, even when I was underage, I have looked 45 since I was 8, I look forward to being 45 and growing into my face. ;-)

  33. Sheff,

    I remember posting on a CiF thread about the Trump saga that the whole sorry story is like 'Local Hero, except with arseholes'.

    Interesting that we both used the description reptile/reptilian within a minute of each other!

  34. Yr Grace

    'Reptile' does describe a species of creature that is extremely unpleasant, ugly and voraciously carnivorous, so suits Trump and his ilk rather well!

  35. Hey Sheff and Duke

    Reptiles are both beautiful and fascinating stop it with the insults towards them.

    The people you are talking about are not reptilian they are human and they display the worst side of us, stop laying it off on animals.

  36. Sorry Jen - I agree with you in principle but no one will persuade me that an alligator is beautiful. And you can't argue that they're not predatory carnivores - a feature they share with the likes of Trump who is determined to destroy an exquisite part of the Scottish coastline with a huge and vulgar playground for the mega rich.

  37. This comment has been removed by the author.

  38. Jennifer,

    you're absolutely right, why should prehistoric creatures that do no harm be mistaken for that crowd.

    From now on, I shall refer to Cameron, IDS, Osborne, Gove, Clegg et al with the worst term imaginable that best describes their despicable, self serving, vomit inducing policies and behaviour- I shall refer to them from now on as Tories.

  39. Those with an interest in freedom of speech may be interested in the following from the Indy:

    ""The private member's bill comes after the coalition government pledged a review of the libel laws to protect free speech and prevent so-called "libel tourism"".

    Lord Lester, a prominent QC, said the "vagueness and uncertainty" of the current system had a "chilling effect on freedom of expression".

    "The time is over-ripe for Parliament to replace our patched-up archaic law with one that gives stronger protection to freedom of speech," he said.

    "No Government or Parliament has conducted a thorough and comprehensive review. My Bill provides the opportunity to do so and to modernise the law in step with the technological revolution.

    "It creates a framework of principles rather than a rigid and inflexible code, and it seeks a fair balance between reputation and public information on matters of public interest."

    The peer said his Bill would:

    :: Introduce a statutory defence of responsible publication on a matter of public interest;

    :: Clarify the defences of justification and fair comment, renamed as 'truth' and 'honest opinion';

    :: Respond to the problems of the internet age, including multiple publications and the responsibility of Internet Service Providers and hosters;

    :: Protect those reporting on proceedings in Parliament and other issues of public concern;

    :: Require claimants to show substantial harm, and corporate bodies to show financial loss;

    :: Encourage the speedy settlement of disputes without recourse to costly litigation."

  40. Paul -
    Bleqars is under 5ft etc...

    As I'm 5'1" so I object;)

    But hey RPTFLMAO!!!! :D

  41. Sheff I think alligators are beautiful and they only kill and eat in order to survive, which makes them very different to trump.

    No alligator has ever tried to take over a coatline in order to provide a playgroup for his mates.

  42. I don't know if it's just my computer but the link that Atomboy provided for us on the 24th which accessed Hanks archived material no longer works??

    If that is the Guardian closing the route off then it really is plain malice and the evidence was there that material still existed on the 24th May 2010

    If it is a general lock out those of you that tried the link and know that Hank's work was there will hopefully record your recollection as evidence here or over on CiF moderation watch

  43. By the way all Monkeyfish's old stuff was also there because I accessed it using Atomboy's methodology

  44. Atomboy's link is at 24 May, 2010 14:37 and I would be grateful if others here would try it and report back.


  45. Deano

    I believe the search function (generally useless anyway) is currently broken. Try finding anything using it at the moment.

    In other news, nice to see the little flotilla heading off from Ramsgate to Northern France this morning to mark the 70th anniversary of the beginning of Operation Dynamo.

    338,000 dishevelled and disorganised British and Allied soldiers lifted off the beaches in 9 days. Quite an achievement, that.

  46. Cook's piece on online-communities may be of interest to all:

    UT reconsidered ??

  47. Swifty it works partly to day.

    Try searching all the Guard for Kizbot and it finds her name in Cook's article above for example!!!

  48. @deano:

    They may be in the process of fixing it. I tried quite a few searches earlier and couldn't get any of them to "stick".

  49. Swifty - have to adopt a wait and see for awhile I guess.

    I always looked on Dunkirk as something of miracle.

  50. annetan42

    ''As I'm 5'1" so I object;)''

    The fact you,re one inch over makes all the difference!.Blears is just 4'11' and that,s with stacked heels.I,m concerned that if Blears falls off the sofa on 'This Week' she could do herself a serious injury-'elf,n,safety and all that.Have also heard the 'pan' in the 'Ladies' is exceptionally deep at the BBC so there is a danger she could accidentally flush herself away into the sewers.Doubt that would stop her rabbiting on mind.:-)

  51. Paul, Anne,

    Maybe she can sit on portillo's knee, like a puppet.

    Could be kind of symbolic......

  52. My eldest sister is only 4ft 11 and she hasn't got a clue about politics (she is proud of that fact)

    She would still be a better bet than Hazel Blears.

    Letting her spew her ignorance every week is not a joke.

  53. Paul
    You are a 'staturist'- willing to take any opportunity to mock and malign those who are seen as being too small - who are you judge our qualities - to deny our humanity ?

    as a long time victim of staturism I would like to draw your attention to the following facts. Shopping can be difficult when you can't reach the top shelf in a supermarket. My late husband was 6' 4" tall - I have kitchen cupboards I can reach only by standing on a chair to this day - I could go on but my distress is too great - I can barely see through my tears.

    You are making the usual mistake of the 'ists' - moving to the general from the particular - HB is not representative of we short arses.

    Being fished back out of the U bend in the loo is not a pleasant experience and gives rise to ribald mockery - I know.

    Having to use a step ladder to reach the sofa is an inconvenience you cannot begin to imagine - carrying the ladder everywhere you go is difficult. This could of course be solved through legislation - all sofas being required to come with integral ladder.

  54. Leni, I love you. x

  55. Leni and Anne

    My humble apologies and i shall apply immediately
    for a place on a 'staturist awareness course'.

    BUT i would like to plead extenuating circumstances.
    I,m just over 6 ft meself and i haven,t properly
    recovered from a particularly nasty incident some years back where i was head-butted in the balls by a dwarf.Ever since that happened i get into a panic
    any time someone under 5 ft comes anywhere near me.
    So surely i,m a victim here as well!

  56. James

    ''Maybe she can sit on portillo's knee, like a puppet.''

    From what i,ve heard about Portillo he,d probably
    be happier if either you or i were sitting on his

  57. Paul,

    So surely i,m a victim here as well!

    Hear hear! I'm 5'10, I seem to spend my time around shortarses, they're forever asking me to "just reach that down" or "open the loft hatch" (my mother, when I'm visiting, despite the fact that my Dad's there too and he's tall enough). The worst one however is my housemate, who at 5'4 or 5'5 is always setting off the smoke alarm then asking me to turn it off, cos she'd have to move the chair over!

  58. Hiya Dot, do you know anything about toads and their ability to predict earthquakes? Bit of a discussion on that at the end of the recently-closed Waddya thread and the beginning of the current one.

    Apparently toads are evacuating Thessaloniki en masse.

  59. Paul,

    to be fair, I always got the impression that any human contact would result in uncontrollable screaming on his part, until his head eventually exploded!

    (Here, Blears would have a significant advantage, given that she's always reminded me of the 'chucky' doll from the childsplay films....)

  60. Jumping down a bit but Jennifera - great post there... this whole idea of a 'baby-shaped hole' is, well, completely farical.

    And thank you for making me laff with this:-

    "I have never been aged checked, even when I was underage, I have looked 45 since I was 8, I look forward to being 45 and growing into my face. ;-)"


    I missed that post by BoulderBoy... brilliant!

  61. Hi thauma only vague recollections of something on QI once. I just did a quick search on Web of Science (database of scientific publications) came up with nothing. (There were only two papers with the words "toad" and "earthquake" in, and neither of them were relevant)

  62. SheffP:

    I have no problems with large reptiles like Crocs and Alligators, I think though, the fact that they are a creature which never, ever, forms an emotional bond with a human being and is always deadly no matter how long you've known them is a good description of Trump. I still cannot believe that that scheme is still in the running.

    Also re: Toads predicting earthquakes...and leaving Thessalonika in droves - remember, the elephants and many other mammals moved to higher ground before the Tsunami hit in Indonesia, those people who instinctively followed them survived.

  63. So you think that complete evacuation might be overreacting a wee bit...!

  64. Dotterel & Al.

    Some studies have been done on how domestic animals respond, but measuring the response of wild animals is more difficult.

    Even those that have been shown to react, such as fish, rodents and snakes tend to do so shortly before an earthquakes strikes, rather than days ahead of the event.

    However, biologist Dr Rachel Grant of the Open University, in Milton Keynes, UK, was routinely studying the behaviour of various colonies of common toads on a daily basis in Italy around the time a massive earthquake struck.

    Her studies included a 29-day period gathering data before, during and after the earthquake that hit Italy on 6 April 2009.

    The quake, a 6.3-magnitude event, struck close to L'Aquila city, about 95km (60 miles) north-east of Rome.

    Dr Grant was studying toads 74km away in San Ruffino Lake in central Italy, when she recorded the toads behaving oddly.

    Five days before the earthquake, the number of male common toads in the breeding colony fell by 96%.

    That is highly unusual for male toads: once they have bred, they normally remain active in large numbers at breeding sites until spawning has finished.

    Yet spawning had barely begun at the San Ruffino Lake site before the earthquake struck.

    Also, no weather event could be linked to the toads' disappearance.

    Three days before the earthquake, the number of breeding pairs also suddenly dropped to zero.

    While spawn was found at the site up to six days before the earthquake, and again six days after it, no spawn was laid during the so-called earthquake period - the time from the first main shock to the last aftershock.

    "Our study is one of the first to document animal behaviour before, during and after an earthquake," says Dr Grant.

    She believes the toads fled to higher ground, possibly where they would be at less risk from rock falls, landslides and flooding.


  65. medve

    As if the Greeks aren't suffering enough! I hope this toad event is some kind of more ordinary migration rather than a precursor to an earthquake. I've seen frogs migrating in large numbers in Wales but it wasn't followed by an event of any kind.

  66. Sheff & Al.


    Elsewhere in the article they are speculating on the toads being able to detect the strange disturbances of the ionosphere, linked to earthquakes, which were also discovered by accident.

  67. It's a speakyourbranes masterclass over on the child legal age of repsonsibility thread, here's two corkers to whet your appetite:


    Also why have we suddenly got school children stabbing each other? Please do not say that this always happened because it did not. It occured suddenly in the late 1990s to 2000s. Yet people on the left act like it is normal.

    Why? Cultural relativism. Stabbing should be nipped in the bud. I don't care if that means public floggings and targetting of black people (so long as they are guilty). It would be for the greater good as it will prevent murder and moral decline.


    No, if I had my way, drunks, drug addicts and the terminally unemployed wouldn't have children at all. Decent people would be free to raise their children in peace, their job would be made considerably easier by removing the chavvy little bastards that continually disrupt schooling and cause trouble on the streets and playing fields.

    Wonderful stuff, get it while it's hot.


    from yesterday re the World Cup. 'When Saturday Comes' World Cup profile was good on Brazil, saying the media goes bananas until Brazil are knocked out and then there is the merest of mentions of the rest of the progress of the tournament. Apparently if Argentina win it, there's a full scale news blackout.

    Everything is slowly turning Oranje here. The supermarkets are doing world cup packs full of orange stuff, everything including food.

  68. Yr Grace

    The place is a cesspit - how does the Daily Heil compete? I think I'll just give it a swerve, as I'd like to hang on to my low blood pressure

  69. duke

    i just love Britain - where the only real danger comes from the risk of drowning in the flood of milk of human kindness.

  70. Duke,

    Yeah, that just about sums it up, although if Argentina win it this time, I'll be expecting some kind of military response, to be honest!

    I was here at the start of the last one, but only briefly, so didn't get the full build-up.

    The 'official (product) of the Brazilian football squad' thing is quite bizarre.
    From banks to beer, just about everything's been covered.

    And, I'm not sure what it's like in The Netherlands, but I always assumed being the England manager was the toughest job in the world....until I saw the media scrutiny of Dunga here!!
    Poor Bastard...

  71. Toads

    I have some faith in the wisdom of animals. Although reports of toad migrations are not conclusive i would take me , my family and friends away for a while - paricularly if I lived near a fault line.

    Reptiles - particularly croadillos.

    Crocs are good mums, they create nurseries for baby crocs to be cared for by one female.

    Female crocs have been observed herding numerous babies overland , away from an evaporating pool towards the safety of deeper water.

    La Rit - Some humans fail to build empathic relations with other beans.

  72. James,

    the England manager's job is a cakewalk compared to being Brazil coach I bet.

    Speaking of Brazil coaches, one of my favourite football quotes ever was from Luis Felipe 'Big Phil' Scolari in the press conference after Brazil won the 2002 world cup.

    Asked how he was going to celebrate that evening, he replied that he was going to go back to the hotel to give his wife a "good seeing to", his words, not mine.

  73. Duke,


    (Shame he didn't have the same 'can do' attitude at Chelsea....)

  74. James

    If Argentina were to win-unlikely IMHO- i think
    Britain will be able to count on Brazilian support
    in any future Argentine attack on the Malvinas.

  75. Paul,

    As an Englishman living in Brazil, I'm legally obliged to agree with you re Argentina's chances (although I have a funny feeling they won't do as badly as everyone expects them to), and it's highly possible that the Brazilian secret service already has some sort of 'Malvinas' plan in place..... ;0)

    (Also, on that note, among the many, many world cup related adverts on telly at the moment, there's at least 5 or 6 campaigns that are pretty uncomplimentary of the Argentines, almost to the point of being offensive...

    ...still, they are quite funny though....)

  76. Duke

    I can't claim the credit for pointing out the billionaire tax evaders - it's a direct quote from Hank's brilliant article on UT2 last year!

  77. Medve, and from the faith in animals aspect Leni:
    ...having felt the earthquake and following aftershocks here in good ol' rome I can tell you from personal observation of my hound that he didn't stop, start doing anything out of the usual...or even bat an eyelid...he continued sleeping, hasseling and generally pursuing his normal behaviour of jumping on little dogs.....on the other hand we leapt out of a very shaky bed...

  78. Deano

    "Tell you what Bitey my friend if I were a Chinaman.."

    There only two other people who've used that term. One was the Duke of Edinburgh who also famously used "slitty eyed" to describe his hosts. The other was Mrs Thatcher who was advised by her Foreign Secretary I believe, that the word is Chinese. The one you use is extremely offensive and at best refers to someone who sells plates etc in the market.

    As to your advice about my expertise, in the past six years I've helped students gain places in top universities in the USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand and my clients recognise quality expertise when they meet it. And what they've been most impressed with is the way I've taken on the UK and other Governments in the shape of people in the UKBA and its equivalents and come up smiling. You see one thing I do know about many of the Chinese people I meet is their extreme fatalism as far as government's are concerned; something that's not really surprising if you live under a communist dictatorship. So when you show determination along with expertise and come out winning, then they're really impressed.

  79. MsChin,

    thanks for the tip off, I hadn't realised Hank had done an article for UT2, must have been before my time here. Off to check it out now.

  80. Bitey

    as far as government's are concerned

    I do hope you aren't advising them on the rules of English punctuation.

    Fuck off now.

  81. Duke

    Hank sure knows his stuff about tax evaders.

  82. @Hank
    "Hank sure knows his stuff about tax evaders."

    Job offer: come to Italy and nab Berlusconi and his tax evasion mates....imagine the pleasure

  83. Well, don't know about toads in Greece but BBC news are reporting that there's been a 7.4 magnitude earthquake of the coast of Vanuatu with the possibility of it being followed by a tsunami.


    Job offer: come to Italy and nab Berlusconi and his tax evasion mates

    Hank would be just the man for that!

  84. For possible readers from China or of Chinese extraction - is the use of the word of Chinaman offensive?

    The OED, the authority on all words in the English language, provides the following entry:


    " 1. A dealer in porcelain.

    1772 Lond. Directory, Brown William, China-man, 1 Aldgate. 1800 New Ann. Direct. 79 Fogg and Son, Chinamen. 1819 P.O. Lond. Direct. 123 Fogg, R., Chinaman.

    2. A native of China.

    1854 EMERSON Lett. & Soc. Aims, Resources Wks. (Bohn) III. 198 The disgust of California has not been able to drive nor kick the Chinaman back to the home. 1872 MEDHURST Foreigner in Far Cathay xi, John Chinaman is a most temperate creature.

    3. Chinaman's chance colloq. (chiefly U.S.), a very poor or negligible prospect (of gain, survival, etc.); the least chance. Chinaman's hat, collectors' name for a gastropod shell, also called Cup-and-Saucer.

    1854 WOODWARD Mollusca (1856) 152 The recent Trochita Sinensisthe ‘Chinaman's hat’ of collectorsis found on the southern shores of England. 1914 Call (San Francisco) 30 Apr. 6 The poor boob ain't got a Chinaman's chance. 1915 ‘IAN HAY’ First Hundred Thousand vi. 50 The Service Battalions..must be led by the officers who have trained them if they are to have a Chinaman's chance when we go out. 1926 H. C. WITWER Roughly Speaking iii. 80 Just make out we're a couple of big brotherswe know full well we ain't got a Chinaman's chance to be nothin' else to you! 1951 F. YERBY Woman called Fancy (1952) x. 193 You haven't a Chinaman's chance of raising that money in Boston.

    4. Cricket. A left-handed bowler's offbreak to a right-handed batsman (see also quots.).

    1937 Daily Herald 3 Feb. 14/1 The Yorkshire lefthander..has frequently broken up a big partnership with his ‘chinamen’. 1955 MILLER & WHITINGTON Cricket Typhoon I. ii. 32 In..Yorkshire, the ‘Chinaman’ is regarded as the lefthand bowler's off-break... In Australia..the ‘Chinaman’ is..the left-hander's googly. 1963 Times 11 May 9/7, I understand the ‘Chinaman’ to be simply an off break bowled out of the back or side of the hand by a left-handed bowlerthat is, the ball comes in to a right-handed batsman from the off and the left-handed bowler's action in bowling is equivalent to that of the right-hander in bowling a leg break. I believe the term was first used in referring to this style of bowling practised before the last War by Ellis Achong, who, although he played for the West Indies, was in fact a Chinese."

    There is no whiff of offensiveness associated with the word Chinaman as used in English. Had it been other you would have been reading an apology from this Yorkshireman.

  85. Here is part of the OED defintion of the word cunt

    "1. The female external genital organs. Cf. QUAINT n.
    Its currency is restricted in the manner of other taboo-words: see the small-type note s.v. FUCK v.

    [c1230 in Ekwall Street-Names of City of London (1954) 165 Gropecuntelane.] a1325 Prov. Hendyng (Camb. Gg. I. 1) st. 42 Yeue i cunte to cunnig and craue affetir wedding. c1400 Lanfranc's Cirurg. 172/12 In wymmen e necke of e bladdre is schort, & is maad fast to the cunte. c1425 Castle of Perseverance (1904) 1193 Mankynde, my leue lemman, I my cunte ou schalt crepe. 1552 LYNDESAY Satyre Procl. 144 First lat me lok thy cunt, Syne lat me keip the key. a1585 POLWART Flyting with Montgomerie (1910) 817 Kis e cunt of ane kow. c1650 in Hales & Furnivall Percy's Folio MS. (1867) 99 Vp start the Crabfish, & catcht her by the Cunt. 1743 WALPOLE Little Peggy in Corr. (1961) XXX. 309 Distended cunts with alum shall be braced. c1800 BURNS Merry Muses (1911) 66 For ilka hair upon her ct, Was worth a royal ransom. c1888-94 My Secret Life VII. 161, I sicken with desire, pine for unseen, unknown cunts. 1934 H. MILLER Tropic of Cancer (1935) 15 O Tania, where now is that warm cunt of yours? 1956 S. BECKETT Malone Dies 24 His young wife had abandoned all hope of bringing him to heel, by means of her cunt, that trump card of young wives.
    transf. and fig. a1680 LD. ROCHESTER Poems on Several Occasions (1950) 28 Her Hand, her Foot, her very look's a Cunt. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 61 The grey sunken cunt of the world. 1928 D. H. LAWRENCE Lady Chatterley xvi. 296 If your sister there comes ter me for a bit o' cunt an' tenderness, she knows what she's after.

    2. Applied to a person, esp. a woman, as a term of vulgar abuse.

    1929 F. MANNING Middle Parts of Fortune I. viii. 159 What's the cunt want to come down 'ere buggering us about for, 'aven't we done enough bloody work in th' week? 1932 ‘G. ORWELL’ Coll. Essays (1968) I. 88 Tell him he's a cunt from me. 1934 H. MILLER Tropic of Cancer (1935) 28 Two cunts sail inAmericans. 1956 S. BECKETT Malone Dies 99 They think they can confuse me... Proper cunts whoever they are. 1965 V. HENRIQUES Face I Had 69 ‘What d'you think you're doing, you silly cunt?’ the driver shouts at her."

    As you will note the OED lists offensive usage of words where evidence for it exists.

  86. thauma a new career in punctuation could await you. ;-)

  87. From Wiki

    "Chinaman is a term that refers to a Chinese man, person, or in some cases, a racial term for any person of East Asian descent. Although the term originated in usage that was not originally offensive in intent, and was listed in older dictionaries, its use evolved into a term often used against the Chinese and other Asians as they encountered increased discrimination and injustice in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Currently, usage of the term chinaman is strongly discouraged by Asian American organizations and others, and considered offensive by modern dictionaries, dictionaries of slurs and euphemisms, and guidelines for racial harassment.

    It can be compared to the ethnic slur, nigger, used for persons of African descent, which was also used as both a self-referential and pejorative description. The term has been used by Chinese and persons without stated offensive intent, and has also been used as a self-referential archetype by authors and artists of Asian descent."

    Now given what I've seen on UT recently about "Niggahs" and "Pakis", I can't say your response is out of character.

    And I happen to have lived in China for half of the past six years.

  88. Have had a second post re-instated on CIF.As before
    respect to the mods for admitting they,d made a
    mistake and putting it right.

  89. "....fatalism as far as government's are concerned; something that's not really surprising if you live under a communist dictatorship...."

    All sorts of surprising things emerge from under a communist dictatorship:
    Ballet in China

  90. How friends in Asian American organizations choose to use the word Chinaman is a matter for them.

    However if they want to tell us in Yorkshire how we should use our language they can piss off.

  91. "..... offensive by modern dictionaries....

    There is only one dictionary of real repute in the English speaking world and that, as every knowledgeable educator in the UK knows is that referenced above - the Oxford English Dictionary

    Anybody who thinks otherwise is an ignorant cunt.

  92. You know Deano I used to live in Yorkshire for eight years and I met some parochial people there, but none so anachronistic as you.

    You enjoy your racism here with your friends.

  93. Had to sit in on a Child Protection interview today. Child in question had disclosed that parent was being violent to self & siblings, so CP officer + police officer came to school to interview. At the end, after some (in my view) appallingly leading questioning, they told the child that they would be going round to see her mother later this afternoon, and was she happy about that?
    Child said no, not really - mother would be really angry that she'd spoken to the authorities & would take it out on her.
    Cue sweet smiles and assurances that 'we see lots of little boys' and girls' mummies and daddies, (this to an 11 yr-old!) and not to worry, because we're going round to make sure that she doesn't get angry with you'
    Child got outside & said 'It's alright for them, they don't have to live with her - she'll make my life hell now'

    CP obviously need to ensure that children are not hurt - but there are many ways a potentially abusive parent can make a child miserable without physically hurting it.
    No idea what the answer is - but I would be very interested to know how - or if - they can prevent the parent taking non-physical revenge on a child for talking to them.
    I just really hope they can.

  94. Concise Oxford Dictionary Eighth Edition 1991

    Chinaman: archaic or derog (now usu offens) a native of China.

  95. shaz

    Poor kid. That sounds awful. As she's at your school (I'm assuming), at least you can keep an eye on her.

    Piss off bitey.

  96. Bloody hell Deano love.. whatever Bitey may or may not be (open to debate), not putting one's entire faith in the definitions of the OED (some of which are somewhat problematic) does not make one anything in particular!

  97. If I can set my usual personal abuse of bitey aside for once, (even though his creepy stalking behaviour is totally unacceptable), it might be worth considering the occasional valid point that he makes here. Deano seems to think that everyone should comment on here, but not bitey - deano will apparently accept every type of racist, classist predujiced nonsense (and excuse it, as many others here do simply because they don't want a confrontation) as long as he can ramble on about reaming his cock, and mungo, and can adore every young miss ad nauseam. Thauma just tells bitey to fuck off (fair enough). BB engages with him repeatedly - why? Many others have also told him to fuck off, myself included. But here's a radical thought - we have endured all sorts of crap on here, but we draw the line at bitey. Why is that? I imagine that it's because his contributions have been purely aggressive and negative, no surprise there (cf parallax, billp). But perhaps it's also because many posters here feel that this is a safe space where inconvenient and uncomfortable opinions should not be heard. (Or eg. in the case of the bigoted and obnoxious Nap, should be defended on very dubious grounds - he's young, unemployed, mentally fragile -WTF people!)That's a very dangerous road to go down, and us old-timers have been there before. Well, if it's the case that we don't want to hear anything nasty here, then what's the fucking point? At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur, I'll say straight out that it wasn't like that when we started this place, and I don't think that it is the future of this place either.

    On a more specific note, I'll say to paulbj that your offensive assault on practically everybody here was at least honest and heartfelt and passionate (at the time). I'm not singling you out - it's just a recent example, not the first, but not to be swept under the carpet either. And I would still call you a paddy nigger (but not in a bad way). Although I wouldn't think of calling habib a Paki, or Turminder a half-caste Jock. Why is that, I wonder? What is the difference? Although if I wanted to say these things here, why shouldn't I? These views exist in the real world so why should they not be expressed here? It's surely a subject for discussion with all the animosity and insults and personal offence that that might entail with such a conversation on this forum (a bit like the real world but perhaps with more honesty!). UT - freedom of speech, no moderation, not Cif.

    I suppose my point here is that if is this to be a forum for the exchange of ideas and political discussion (amongst other things), then treading on eggshells with each other, and everyone spouting the same tired old bullshit won't actually do it. I think that you regular contributors here should think hard about what way you want UT to go. You'll end up with the forum you deserve.

    And on a final, very personal note, I support montana 100% in her response to BB's coments. As usual here, everybody wants to be pals and nobody wants to 'take sides'. l'll say straight out that montana's reaction to BB's comments was right on the money and BB was totally wrong in her personal (disgused as professional) interpretation of the case, her patronising manner and her dishonest response to montana. I'm disappointed that more intelligent posters here didn't recognise that. Sorry, BB - sue me.

    And lastly, at risk of sounding precious, I really think that you should all think seriously about how you use this forum which montana started and which she still works hard to maintain. Apart from thauma and myself, nobody has ever done anything practical here. I'm more or less out of the loop now, but I still care about this place. And who knows? It might disappear tomorrow.

  98. scherfig

    You can call me 'paddy nigger' all you like because
    i am way beyond the stage where i am prepared to
    waste my time with an imbecile like you.In the time
    i,ve used UT all i,ve seen you do is snipe at people.
    Apart from that what have you contributed to UT?Sweet
    FA.So on that note i,ll leave you to play at being a
    socialist in Denmark whilst those of us in Blighty
    live with the realities of life under the ConLib
    administration here.

    bye bye babe!

  99. Apart from thauma and myself, nobody has ever done anything practical here.

    So what do you want, a ménage à deux? Okay, I've thought seriously about how I use this forum, and I've come to the conclusion that whatever I do, I will never be one of the founder members, who seem to be the only people truly welcomed on here. And maybe that is because I'm thick, or inarticulate, or sometimes like talking bollocks about something inconsequential - and frankly, at the moment, I don't give a flying fuck.

  100. The CEO of Tesco said today that he welcomed government legislation to force his company to increase the price of alcohol.
    So, the plutocrats who campaigned for de-regulation to make more money, now want a bit of selective regulation to make more money?
    The only bit he missed out was "think of the kids"!
    As the character John Cleese played in "Clockwise" said: "It's not the despair, I can cope with the despair; it's the hope!"

  101. scherf - is there not perhaps a bit of cognitive dissonance going on in your assertion that Nap was obnoxious or bigoted and your question as to why you shouldn't be able to refer to other posters as a 'paddy nigger' or 'half caste jock' because these opinions exist in the real world... Your point seems a bit confused? Either the point can be legitimately made without recourse to abuse.. as you seem to be stating.. or it's offensive as you also seem to be saying about Nap.. Which is it?

  102. BTW; for what it's worth, what really hacks me off at this time of year, is not being able to watch test match cricket on terrestial tv.
    I won't subscribe to Sky because Murdoch is a fascist.
    Test Match Special on Radio 4 is as brilliant as always and remains the unsurpassed alternative.
    However, Test Match Cricket, being the meaning of life, should be at least within the radar of the licence fee payer.

  103. @ Chekhov - absolutely 100% damn right.

  104. scherf

    And I would still call you a paddy nigger (but not in a bad way).

    Is there any other way to call someone that?

  105. Well. some reaction from the new guard!

    Paul, shazwombat, no interest from you guys in the article I put up on UT2 a while back about the first socialist, female Muslim MP in Denmark? I didn't see any engagement from you - no comments, no acknowledgement that you'd even read it. Oh sorry, I forgot - you're just pretend socialists who masturbate on the internet with like-minded needy nondescripts. Fair enough.

    Paul, you can call me what you want, but an imbecile I am not. Wanker is probably better. Or paddy. You disappoint me, Paul - you're just a drone like so many others - everything vital has been knocked out of you. Shame.

    shaz, you seem bitter. Don't be - I'm sure you'll be accepted here.

    kizbot, I thought you'd given up on this place? To be polite, I'll suggest that you have no fucking clue what my point was, so if you're very confused I'll throw in a hackneyed pseudo-intellectual term like 'cognitive dissonance'. Is it any clearer now?

  106. chekov- too right!
    sheff- err... no actually...

  107. An interesting post scherfig and having looked at my own records, it might surprise you that as far as I can see, we never fell out about anything that either of us posted on CiF. I stand to be corrected on this because of certain
    IT problems that have been alluded to earlier on this thread, but I don't think so.

    You call me a stalker, a term which in time I think you'll come to regret using, and ask "BB engages with him repeatedly - why?".

    And you answered your own question earlier this year when you wrote about her, far more perceptively and cuttingly than I could ever have brought myself to, if only because I like to engage with posters, like you, who present a challenge, rather than an easy target:

    "You have a huge ego and an apparent need to prove your liberal credentials to us ordinary people on this blog. Your posts are mostly about you. You take pride in 'bashing the fash' but it just sounds like a schoolkid being stroppy. It's bullshit. Sorry, but I find you incredibly naive politically (Lib Dem Ya?) so we're never going to be best friends You get a lot more from this blog than you give. Fair enough."

  108. Is there any other way to call someone that?

    Well, apparently it's all in the context, sheff. Why not ask ask habib or turminder what they think? I'm just an ignorant paddy (and imbecile). What would I know?

  109. Your right about one thing scherf.. I have no clue what your point was... but I'm not so worried cos you didn't either! As for me having given up on the place .. you've done more exits than Sarah Bernhardt,, so forgive me the pot black reference... pet...

  110. think this needy nondescript is going to bale out for the night - have work in the morning and really can't be doing with a row right now.


    Do you think tesco could be persuaded to provide us with some decent test coverage?

  111. And I did read your article about Özlem Cekic, scherfig, when you posted a challenge to me to do so. Having read it I was somewhat bemused about how it was meant to reinforce the hostility you have shown to me for the past year or so.

    And having lived in Denmark for a short period and worked with some really great Danes, it doesn't surprise me a bit that she's been accepted as someone who, to quote you, "can change your life and make a difference in spite of cultural and social barriers."

  112. Scherfig - no, I'm not bitter - at least not about anything to do with the UT. Was aware the minute I'd hit 'post comment' that that's what you'd read into my post though - well done. You're 'sure I'll be accepted here'? Well gee thanks mate, that's really big of you - I'm knocked out by your generosity.

    Nope - didn't comment on your article. So what? Doesn't mean I didn't read it, or that I wasn't interested. It's a little sad though, if the only way you feel that I can justify my existence on here is by massaging your ego.

    'Like-minded needy nondescript'? Nice comment. Hope you're proud of it.

  113. ha ha, 'kiz', you don't change at all, do you? In spite of everything, it's surprisingly reassuring and pleasant to communicate with you again :o) But I'd be a bit wary with that old 'scherf' thing. You don't want me to go all 'hads','hadders' on you, do you?

    All the best, anyway, I've got enough enemies here, don't need another one. btw, my point, as always, was quite serious, some people just don't get it. Perhaps I should drop the irony and the rhetoric and just stick to one-syllable words. But then what would be the point of writing it? No Fun

  114. Go as 'Hads' as you like love.. She, or you, can equivocate as much as you like...
    Ask me if I'm bothered?
    I'll still call it as I see it...

  115. Good stuff, shaz. I disagree with your very wounding comments about my 'ego', but when was the last time you disagreed with anyone on UT? How does it feel?

    BiteTheHand, good that you've read the article, but the issue is not how bemused you were about my hostility to you, but what you actually thought about the piece without reference to any other cyberpeople. You can still comment on the article - say what you think, no ad homs necessary.

  116. I don't think that bitey should be prevented from posting on UT. He is more than welcome to disagree with me and take the piss as he wishes.

    I would make the point that when UT started it was accompanied by a members only private site called the phonebox. I declined an invitation to join so I have no insider knowledge but as I understand it didn't work.

    There is no reason why Scherfig and or Hank or anyone else can't set up their own sites and no doubt if they can write and organise sufficient quality stuff they will attract the posters they want to exclusively talk with.

    If they can create and maintain a site with the number and quality of the posters that use UT then good luck to them.

    I should if it was open read there since they sometimes have interesting things to say but not a great deal of late.

    Trying to direct the dynamics of this place seems like pissing in the wind to me - it is plainly organic and it will go where those who use it want it to.

    I always assume that those who find what I write boring turgid nonsense would simply use the scroll on by facility. I have no need for a captive or exclusive readership and can never be offended by being ignored since that is what I would advise others to do with stuff they don't like.

    Should Montana wish me to depart I should be happy to follow billip's honourable example without any rancour - she only has to ask.

  117. Scherfig - the last time I disagreed publicly with anyone on here was with Turminder, yesterday. I hope Paul won't mind me saying that I disagreed with with him. But on a discussion site where everyone, broadly speaking, is on the same side, surely that's not too surprising. Have disagreed violently with plenty of people on CiF.
    With the disagreement between Montana & BB: this seems to be one that doesn't need outsider input.

    Don't mind disagreeing with people, although I seem to spend so much of my days at work doing that, when I get home I'm mostly too fucking lazy unless someone really pisses me off - but I am definitely hamstrung by an upbringing which prompts me to be polite.

  118. Anyone else see Newsnight tonight ?

    Cracking guest on, suffers bipolar disorder. Offered some good insight to outgoing labour and new ConDems sick benefit strategies. Made a few cracking comments.

    Oh, and cheers for that track scherfig.

  119. "With the disagreement between Montana & BB: this seems to be one that doesn't need outsider input."

    Tend to agree with you shaz, but for the sake of argument, fuck off.

    OK ;-)

  120. Bitterweed - fuck off yourself. Right off. :)

  121. Shaz

    Why would you think i,d mind if you disagree with me?

  122. Paul - bloody hell mate, I dunno. My mind has been unhinged by Hazel Blears on This Week.

  123. And can I add a general fuck off... just for the sake of it... wherever it might be needed... It's sure to be needed somewhere! Just for good measure...

  124. I just want to watch the Test Match without bowing down to the fascist cunt that is Murdoch!

  125. Exchange "watch the Test Match" with "live my life" and we're pretty much on the same page.

  126. good old deano, you've never forgotten the phonebox, have you? Strange that something so inconsequential should loom so large in your memory. I think that everybody else has forgotten about it long ago, but you keep bringing it up. Why is that?

    You're also sounding a bit petulant, deano.
    You say 'I have no need for a captive or exclusive readership', but that's not true is it? For you this place is somewhere where you can talk constantly about cocks and cunts and young ladies and how much you adore the young misses' use of language. And occasionally say something about Yorkshire or socialism. I don't really understand why some people find it quaint or amusing, but that's OK. You have the right to do that. I just find it incredibly boring and more than a little disturbing, but since you constantly ignore me (except to criticize) and focus entirely on the delightful young madams that you want in your boat, then it's no big deal for me. Carry on, deano, but count me out.

  127. Bitterweed: I'm a "live and let live" sort of guy. If Test Match cricket doesn't push your buttons that's fine with me!

  128. Understood, shaz :O) bitterweed, fuck off! deano and kiz - get a room together!

    And just to cheer everybody up jackie wilson said

  129. '... but since you constantly ignore me (except to criticize)'

    Scherfig, isn't that what you're doing to the 'new guard'? You can argue that that's because they're saying nothing you want to respond to, but then that's an argument anyone could use at times.

    Anyway - need to be awake for work tomorrow. Night all.

  130. Scherfig - thanks for the link - did indeed cheer up the evening!

  131. scherfig

    If you regularly posted here you wouldn,t feel the
    need to appear like the 'virgin mary'once in a blue
    moon and attack those of us you have no time for.
    If you were a regular poster here then i might just
    see you in a different light.Because that way i,d
    have a more rounded picture of who you are and what
    you stand for.The fact you are a founder member
    here means nothing to me-although others who have
    known you from the beginning may well disagree.

    Deano made a fair point earlier.If you don,t like
    his posts,or mine for that matter,then just ignore

  132. Scherf my friend you seem to have reading difficulties.

    I would have thought that you would have liked a more private site like the phonebox. It's not my kind of thing at all but you could then keep out the riff raff - no?

    Petulance sounds like too much effort for me.

    For me UT is a social space occupied by a number of interesting folk with a common interest in political matters. I don't comment much on CiF these days so no doubt I seem to hang around here a lot. My contributions here are no great matter and I've no doubt that like many others I'll fade away in due course.

    I've no criticism of you I usually find something interesting in what you have to say so I don't scroll on by when I see your moniker but I'm bemused as to why ever you should ever wish to waste any more time reading me given your boredom.

    It's easy man you just scroll on by and thus count me out. It really doesn't take a great deal of effort to ignore that which you find boring or disturbing.

    I'm having difficulty maintaining a dongle signal tonight so I may not be able to continue much longer tonight

  133. paul, you make a lot of asumptions on very little evidence. I don't need to justify or prove anything to you. However, since you're stepping up to the plate - off you go, young padawan. Do something, say something that's not just a boring reiteration of how terribly upset evryone is with this new government. Have you any original thoughts? Express them. Maybe I'll appear again sometime like the virgin mary. (And watch those Catholic references - the UK seems be more anti-Catholic now than it was in the late 1500's. Don't tell yer mum that, although maybe she's already noticed?)

    Best of luck!

    Here's one for you. You might consider it an insult. If you do, let me know exactly why. song

  134. Sherfig

    as you are so unhappy with the way the site developed why did you not keep it as a 'by invitation only' site ?

    As it is open to anybody the site will tend to go in the direction the posters shape it.

  135. deano, I take your general point but you're not being honest. The majority of your comments here are not about 'political matters', they're about your cock and women and Frederick Furnivall and Frank Harris (and your dogs). I think I get your message all right (I have no reding difficulties), but I don't think it's aimed at me, is it? It's aimed at the young ladies that you 'adore' so much - and it's fucking boring and offensive from my point of view. You still have the right to carry on, but don't insult my intelligence by pretending that you have any interest in what I have to say about anything. Because you don't.

  136. leni, I'm not 'unhappy'. I'm just past caring (nearly). And 'invitation only' is the exact opposite of what the whole thing meant when we started. If you can't see that, then you understand nothing.

  137. scherfig

    OK let,s sort this out once and for all.You fired
    the first shot here so what the fuck is your problem?

  138. scherfig

    I,m waiting.Come on you,ve been shooting your mouth
    off whilst you,ve had an audience but most people
    are asleep now so it,s just you and me.So i repeat
    my question.What the fuck is your problem?

  139. Sherfig

    It is because from the beginning it was an open site that I cannot understand your complaint.

    You want some dissent - some swapping of ideas - the honing of thought etc. i see that .

    My point is that as there is no talk policy and no mission statement the only guidelines are created by the users.

    People respond to posts which interest - or annoy - them. Thus the thing is shaped.

  140. "...The majority of your comments here are not about 'political matters'..."

    I don't recall saying that they were. I have no pretence that they are anything but mostly inconsequential light hearted nonsense. They just attempt to fill a silence that sometimes occurs.

    The obvious question Scherf is where are all those who were the original "We" who started the place? What was it that lead them to depart?

    Truth seems to be that the place seems to have attracted more and more contributors as it has become more relaxed. That they are not all to your taste or Hanks may say something about your failures to attract what you what wanted.

    You can't believe that my tedious efforts have driven them all away

  141. Well it seems that our friend cocooned in the
    tender embrace of Danish welfarism has decided
    to log-off rather than accept my offer to sort
    things out once and for all.

    Scherfig--you,re fulla shit mate!

    Nite x

  142. Scherf for the record I responded to your recent UT2 posting as follows:

    "deano30 said...
    Interesting Scherf

    I noted that time on the 'shopfloor' with fellow workers made an important contribution to Ozlem's development and understanding of all things Danish. So many in the UK used to have that kind of experience.

    Sitting by nellie wasn't all about learning the skills of the job. For many in the working class in the UK, and elsewhere, it often seemed an important starting point (depending on who nellie was) in developing political and economic understanding.

    Was there any more information about the vehicle of Ozlem's progress - trade union/ local constituency/party activist etc. Local continuing education or perhaps fell in with a crowd of activists?.

    Wish we had many more stories like this to tell.

    I sometimes wonder what places like Ruskin/ Northern/NewBattle Abbey/Coleg Harlech etc Colleges have been turning out for the last 15-20 years.
    06 May, 2010 18:31"

    Scherf fact is you chose not to respond to my enquiry. Perhaps you have a selective memory.

  143. Sort what out Paul? You've been here a couple of months, and have already made a total arse of yourself by being racist and abusing everybody as cunts and fuckers, and now it's all forgotten and forgiven and you're accusing me of not contributing anything? If you had any self-awareness or intelligence you would realise that you're a very small fish in a very small pond who arrogantly feels at home here but has yet to prove himself. You are certainly very welcome to post here, and I'm sure that eventually you will have something to offer, but at the moment your own sense of self-worth far outstrips any dispassionate judgment of what you have actually produced. And I'm just a little tired of your constant jibes that I have never contributed anything here. What the fuck would you know about that? If I don't contribute much here any more, then part of the reason is that boring say-nothing fucks like you have become the regulars. Sorry mate, but you're just not interesting enough for me to be bothered with.

    Has that sorted it out for you once and for all? Just answer yes or no, because I won't be bothering with you again until you have something to offer.

  144. Looks like he's gone just as I'd got a steady dongle signal.

    Leni - I think your understanding of the mechanics and the dynamics of UT is well founded.

    It is open to Montana to shape it any different way she wants. She is well respected and I'm sure that any directions she wished to give would be responded to.

  145. scherfig, you say - "You can still comment on the article - say what you think, no ad homs necessary."

    I'm still bemused about the constant references to ad homs, but nevertheless, on the article, for translating it from Danish, you provided us with something we'd have unlikely heard about and I should have recorded that earlier.

    And as you say in your translation, Özlem Cekic provides a stunning example of "rags to riches" progress, and an eye opening example of what can be achieved when someone with commitment, dedication and enthusiasm decides that their future lies in politics. (or any other aspect of life).

    And if she is unusual, she is far from being unique.

    Let me point to the case of Bernadette Devlin, a young, largely unknown civil rights activist in the Six Counties who with the support, some of it totally opportunist, was elected to Westminster, and had the honour of being the only women ever to have physically attacked the Home Secretary, Reginald Mauldling, on the floor of the house, for his role in the Bloody Sunday massacre, about which the most recent enquiry is about to be published.

    So as I know nothing about Danish politics and even less about sheep, that's about all I can contribute.

  146. Paul:
    1.33 I,m waiting
    1.51 Scherfig--you,re fulla shit mate! Nite x

    My reply:1.56

    You're an impatient little bunny, aren't you Paul? Read my reply tomorrow.

  147. Scherfig

    Gawd blimey mate that was a quick reversal.I thought
    you,d buggered off to beddybise.

    Ok let me deal with your points here.-

    1)You are accusing me of constant jibes?
    You,re 'avin a larf mate.

    2)You accuse me of arrogance?
    Please explain.

    3)You are yet again referring to my one-off car
    crash moment.
    Yawn!If i upset anyone personally and they are still
    angry with me then of course i would take that
    seriously.But i had no idea who the fcuk you were
    that night so i,m afraid you don,t count.

    4)You won,t be bothering with me until i have something to offer!!!!!
    Get over yourself!

    Any other points you wanna raise i,m still here.

  148. BTH - a ludicrous comparison with Bernadette Devlin, but let's pursue that discussion on the UT2 thread.

  149. No more points, Paul. I did once have the impression that you might have something to offer, something from the heart, but I was mistaken. You're just an angry half-baked troll with a very clunky style. Not interesting. Bye.

  150. Oh scherfie

    You just gone broke ma heart honeychile!!

  151. Fine suggestion scherfig and as I've put my case about Ms Devlin, you might like to start off on why you think the comparison is ludicrous.

    After all both are women, from male dominated societies, who seized their chances, found their vocations and I'd suggest, had similar views on human rights and the necessity to struggle for them, rather than wait for them to be handed out by those largely male politicians who had, until then, singularly failed to deliver.

    I don't promise to respond for obvious reasons, but I'll certainly read whatever you post.

  152. James

    report on BBC tonight - Brazil gvt. giving 25% of purchase price to poor people to get them on housing ladder .

    Economy growing at 5% pa.

    Unfortunately they are just running short snippets - very little analysis.

    there does seem to be a movement towards redistribution and more fairness as the economy develops.