29 May 2010


The Council of Konstanz convened in 1414.  Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring was publicly performed for the first time in 1913 at the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées in Paris.  I think we all know what those wacky French people did.  Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay reached the summit of Mt. Everest in 1953.  The Heysel Stadium disaster in 1985 killed 39 spectators.

Born today:  Isaac Albéniz (1860-1909), G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936), Bob Hope (1903-2003), Danny Elfman (1953), Rupert Everett (1959), Melissa Ethridge (1961), Noel Gallagher (1967), Mel B (1975) and Andrei Arshavin (1981).

It is Republic Day in Nepal.


  1. Well I'm glad that's all sorted then.

    As it's his birthday, here's a nice tune from
    Isaac Albéniz

  2. ConDems facing their first scandal. David Laws - deliverer of pain and cuts to the hoi poloi discovered to have claimed 40 grands worth of rent on expenses which went to his partner.

    According to some pundit on the news this morning "he set an example of frugality" and was only defending his right to a private life.

  3. Morning, deano, how's your head?. I've just seen your drunken ramblings from yesterday. I have no problems with you being pissed off at me, and you can say whatever you want to me, but what has me being Irish got to do with anything? Repeatedly calling me a 'mick' just makes you look like a prat. But then I've heard it all before a million times from people both more and less intelligent and enlightened than you claim to be, so water off a duck's back, mate. I don't mind being insulted, but try and come up with something a bit more original, eh? It makes it so much more interesting to read :0)

  4. "...One of my problems with this site is it's dishonesty.. The pretence that there is no moderation, gatekeeping or exclusion...
    When there is.....

    The above by kizbot is gratuitously dishonest because she knows it is untrue.

    If anyone thinks my comments last night/this morning about Bru were harsh and unkind let me just say that Bru is the only person to my knowledge that has been vicariously spiteful on UT. The evidence for my assertion is in the archive.

    Good morning Sheff and everyone.

    I'm out for the day.

  5. scherf/deano

    Oh gawd...I was rather hoping Bitterweed's choice of a beautiful tune would set the tone of the day and we'd ease up on the internecine strife, especially since as it's a bank holiday weekend its going to rain as usual.

  6. Scherf - a mick is a term of affection in my family I call my fine Irish son in law one all the time.

    Drunken idiot I sometimes am, racist I am not.

    Regards my friend.

  7. I have never met an Irish person that I did not like and that includes you Scherf.

  8. Fair enough, deano. A bit dubious, but no hard feelings anyway. btw, I've met loads of Irish persons that I couldn't fucking stand - I suppose you've just been lucky :0)

  9. ooh dear.

    bit of a large one last night. feel fragile.

    morning all.

  10. What anger I feel towards you Scherf is tinged with great sadness. I only feel that because you seem incapable of sensing the hurt you have caused to those who honestly sought to be your friend.

    Let us not spoil the day for anyone. May I bury the hatchet?

    You are welcome to the last word if you need it. I will not have many more posts and I don't want what remain to be spent in acrimony with someone I have regard for.

    You are welcome to a sincere apology if my mick comment offended you.

  11. Scherf I would never pretend that I have been other than lucky in life.

    Truth is the vast majority, and I mean vast, of people that I have met in life have been very decent and likeable. A few have been misguided and only one or two shits.

    I have thus nothing much to complain about

  12. Gary Coleman's dead then. They could rename the show Dif'rent Embolisms.

  13. Hatchet buried, deano. No apologies should be necessary from either side, but I'll extend one to you as well anyway. Have a great day.

  14. Am trawling through the Yvette Cooper thread, which resembles swiss cheese. Liked this from BeatontheDonis:

    In next week's Guardian:

    "Why I won't be entering the Boat Race", by Desert Orchid.

    heh heh

  15. Bitterweed - am not clicking on that as I suspect it may be loud.

    it will be a while before I can cope with loud.

    possibly a day or so.


  16. Phillipa

    You have a hangover but can still manage Yvette Cooper? I'm impressed!

  17. sheff - fortunately when i tried to comment i got 404'd, which is probably for the best...

    lovely (restful) article up on toys and models. the kind of thread that will only get a dozen comments, but deserves much more...

  18. PhilippaB
    Press it. Press it !!! PRESS IT !!!

  19. Wimp.
    Best hungover text ever - from a mate of mine after a major three day booze and pharma binge...

    "Issues with daylight and motion. Apart from that ok"

  20. Not been chipping in much of late.Jaded with most online stuff at the mo: maybe my enthusiasm will return, but real world stuff is more pressing, work, fighting off managerialist fuckwittery-"total system transformational process" anyone-,fighting for my service users who are getting crapped on from all quarters (from ATOS to unresponsive CMHTs to lamentable social care), looking to move house, and,er,oh yeah,going to become a father,gulp.
    However very glad to see mention last night of Myles na gCopaleen/Flann O'Brien/Brian O'Nolan, and to see some fans here. Absolute gem of a writer

  21. "...., and,er,oh yeah,going to become a father,gulp...."

    Great news Alisdair - truly one of the highlights of life.

  22. Alisdair

    and,er,oh yeah,going to become a father,gulp.

    Congratulations - great news! Make the most of your remaining freedom and sanity, (although it is good fun too). You'll find reading Myles very soothing during those endless sleepless nights - he'll remind you why lifes worth living.

  23. Morning all

    @Alisdair-great news and congratulations.

  24. congrats alisdair!

    bitterweed - you're evil. peh.

  25. Good article on the EDL in the Guardian hardcopy.

    It's just "Intercity Firms 2". Twats.

  26. I don't want to pick a fight with anyone here... I wish everyone here the best... even those I tend to vehemently disagree with. I was being a bit provacative... shall we say. But my point (probably badly put - whatever) is that just because posts are not removed here doesn't mean that there isn't a fair amount of 'controlling' going on... I was just asking you all to think about that.. but hey... In the grand scheme of things.. not really such a big deal...
    As for me not cutting the mustard in the premiere league of UT... HA ha... gosh I feel sooo... belittled!
    Blackpool just went up you know!
    Anyways... freakin baking here and I'm off out

  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

  28. @Alisdair

    Major congratulations on the impending - it's really worth everything, despite the bad bits.

    And yes, Sheff, Myles is good for periods of ennui. I got through 10 days in hospital (when it turned out there was nothing wrong) with a collection of Myles and the complete works of S.J. Perelman.

  29. kiz - I don't think there's controlling - there may be people urging others to think about issues or reflect on their own views, but that's not really controlling, or, if it is, that's what you're now asking us to do so you're doing it too, or something.

    not really understanding. maybe shower will help clear head.

  30. Just a drive-by post to congratulate Alisdair.

    Your life will never be the same again.

  31. Congratulations Alisdair. (I know what that "gulp" feels like but becoming father wasn't half as traumatic as I imagined!) Good luck.
    Kizbot:You were being disingenuous and you know it. That sort of crap might wash on CIF but not on here.

  32. Alisdair,

    did you see the Graun's half hearted apology for this article which said that Andy Cole's first game at St James Park was met by racist protests by Newcastle fans outside the ground?

  33. Morning all,

    Congratulations Alisdair.

    And good luck!!

  34. Great news, Alisdair!
    Though not necessarily
    for your hair!

    The first rule of pregnancy club - as a man you have no rights to emotion, justification, or general well-being.
    Second rule... etc.

    It's worth it all. Best wishes to you and mum to to be.

  35. Alisdair congratulations on the baby news, I am sure the gulp factor will soon be outweighed by excitement. ;)

  36. Princess Chip Chops I just have to congratulate you for both your great posts on the Polly Toynbee thread and your persistance and stamina.

    I know some people mock those who choose to spend their time on less heavyweight or less political threads and try to have a bit of a laugh but god it wears you down when you have to read page after page of people who are basically calling you (and yes I do take it personally) a worthless piece of scum, a parasite and a chav.

    It is great that you stick with it PCC, I can only face it occassionally and maybe I shouldn't shirk my part in desperately trying to get those nitwits to see that we are human beings with all that entails, I really get the feeling sometimes that they view us as a different (and do I have to say lesser) species.

    Pah I need some stronger drugs.

  37. 1st:

    Congratulations Alasdair! And thank you for not saying, "We are pregnant. 'Cos however excited and involved any man is going to be -- he is most definitely not pregnant.


    Kiz, for you to lecture anyone else about controlling the online behaviour of others shows either rank hypocrisy or one of the most stunning displays of a lack of self-awareness that I've seen in a long time. Practically all you do any more is wag your finger at people.

    3rd: (And then I'm going to drop this)

    There's one other thing that has been bothering me about the recent arguments with NapK and BB. In both instances (and in others in the past), they said that they would leave since I was disagreeing with them.

    Why? Why should it be any different for me to disagree with someone here than anyone else? Hank can be vile to all and sundry and no one ever says, "I'm going to leave, then." Scherf can state some pretty strong opposition to people and opinions and no one ever threatens to leave. So why do people feel the need to withdraw from the place just because I've expressed disagreement with them?

    To issue such a declaration places me in the position of being unable to voice opposition to anyone, ever.

    As I have said before, I never wanted people to think of this as "Montana's blog". That's precisely why I've tried to get other people involved in running/maintaining things, why anyone who wants will be given author permission on UT2 -- I don't want to be Queen of the Blog.

    BB, especially, has been around long enough to know that I express my opinions rather bluntly, so it was doubly bewildering that, after all this time, she would threaten to leave because I'd expressed irritation with the tone she took in responding to a comment I'd made.

    The comment that she'd taken such umbrage with was addressing no one in particular, but she replied with what I still maintain was rather pointed condescension. So I replied with a "fuck you" to something I found especially patronising and all the sudden I'm the bad guy.

    I'm sorry, but that doesn't wash. We're all intelligent and grown-up enough to know that it is quite possible be far more dismissive or abusive of someone without ever using a 'sweary' word than using a phrase like 'fuck you' will ever be. I'm hard-pressed right now to think of anyone who posts here who hasn't used similar language at some point in time, so I find the offence taken to be a bit disingenuous.

  38. Well done Alisdair. Congrats to you and the mum. Get some sleep now, you'll need it.

  39. Montana - I've sometimes offered to leave at your discretion and that is because I do recognise that is possible to become ultra objectionable to another poster (your self included)for a whole variety of reasons.

    The usual two options to such aggrevated parties is:

    i) scroll on by

    ii) don't bother here at UT at all.

    Plainly you like everyone have option i) but if you exercised option ii) then in time there would be probably no UT.

    As I understand it UT means a lot to you and others it would therefore be unfair that many would loose out if you as host were forced to close the place because someone finally became an intolerable arsehole to you.

    Thus to me it has always seemed fair that you should be offered the billip option in any serious conflicts.

    I think Hank has offered you the same option on occasion. It simply seems the reasonable thing that who does all the work and yet has less freedom than the rest.

    I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

    BB also said she didn't want to leave so I assume she has similar reasoning.

    I always thought the "billip offer" was a generous and redeeming aspect of a sometimes difficult poster.

    I think that is important that posters make that offer to you for non of us want the site to be undermined by you feeling cornered into saying that you would prefer anyone should not post here.

    There is a subtle difference in your saying that you accept someone's offer to depart for the collective good and in directly asking them to go..

    It may simply be English politeness.


  40. " "....she would threaten to leave because I'd expressed irritation...."

    I don't recall her threatening to leave. I thought she had offered (at your discretion)

    I'll go check....

  41. "I am very much aware that this is your website, so if you don't want me to post here any more, I won't. But that would also make me very sad.

    J x
    26 May, 2010 10:25"

    As you may know she is on holiday at the minute but in fairness that is how she put it.

    I regarded her personal signature (" J x ") as a sign of honourable intent but no doubt the lady can answer for herself when she returns.

  42. Certainly as I watched/read the billip affair unfold all that time ago I didn't read it as billip being told to leave UT so much as invited to fall on his own sword.

    In the event it was not a Montana decision - but more of a collective one if I recall it all accurately at this distance in time. Lots of people were asking Montana to exercise the option for the good of the site. But crucially he offered to go if asked.

    I'm only writing this because I saw it as an important episode of the story of UT and one that many later UT's may not be fully conversant with.

    They too can now be part of the collective custody and memory of UT - or they can disagree with my recollection of events.

    Hope that makes sense?

    Loads of people invite bitey to "piss off" but without him offering to go and Montana exercising the billip option it don't amount to a row of beans. The man is not and cannot be banned.

  43. I'm bored of rowing, but she is amazing:



  44. "Hank can be vile to all and sundry"

    Thanks, Montana. It's an awesome responsibility. I shall try to exercise it, er, responsibly.

  45. Thanks for the kind wishes all, and nope I'm definitely not pregnant, and won't be doing the hard labour at birth. Lots of hard labour down the line of course: I guess I'm kinda equal opps liberated but not deluded: it's my wife carrying and due to deliver, and I'm just a helpful accessory until birth.

    @ the Duke, that apology is so bloody disingenuous. That Chelsea spokesman lied, plain and simple, trying to paint NUFC as racist (there is some degree of racism in Newcastle but actually far less than most of the country and far far less than say, Sunderland). In fact in terms of black players and especially Asian players Newcastle have been exemplary (eg first Anglo-Indian Premiership player, Michael Chopra), whereas Chelsea have a truly abysmal record, despite their hopes to present an image as sophisticated,metropolitan, multiculturalists. The Guardian, I'd suggest was only too keen to paint geordies as thick,insular racists: whenever they cover Newcastle the paper shows stunning prejudice and amazement that folk are friendly,open-minded,cultured and principled, that last point being something the paper isn't, with reporting like that.

    Bad news today though folks, Denis Hopper, one of the great mavericks has died.

  46. Deano, come on -- re-read that and think about the situation. It is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to above when I said that one can be more dismissive or abusive without swearing than with.

    Yes, the words as she wrote them can be read as a polite offer to depart. But, given that she has been here for as long as she has and should be well aware that Billp is the only person I have ever told to stop posting here, that I have frequently reminded people that I can't actually ban anyone and that I had at no point came anywhere close to suggesting that I didn't want her posting here anymore, I think that reading those words as a "polite offer" and not a little bit of passive-aggression is a rather generous interpretation.

    I am not asking you or anyone else to take sides between us and I neither want nor see any reason why one disagreement, however strongly felt or worded, between the two of us should result in a permanent rift, but trying to tell me that something wasn't meant the way it very clearly was is not going to help.

    And I know that that's all that you're trying to do and I'm not angry with you for that, so please don't take this comment as anger.

  47. "I'm bored of rowing"

    Aye, me too, Jay.

    Alisdair, that article was just utter bollocks Newcastle has a tiny bit of racism, as does Manchester and probably almost anywhere, Sunderland, however is just plain and simple nasty - I know - I lived there for six years.

  48. Deano:

    The "Billp option" only happened because he told everyone that, if he were told directly by me to fuck off and never post here again, he would. It only worked because, for whatever his faults, he had the integrity to keep his word.

    And the only reason I told him to was because it became clear that his continued presence here would be the death of the place.

  49. You know even coming from the North East I had no idea that Sunderland was more racist than Newcastle, I didn't know either of them was considered that bad, I do know from personal experience that the Sunderland football fans are considerably worse than the Geordies (I worked taking bets in the away end of the Riverside for a couple of years and only the Everton fans behaved worse than the Mackems.

    How is Middlesbrough seen?

    I haven't noticed it being that bad but as a white person I don't suppose I would.

  50. Ah, I love this site. Just dipped into last night's discussion.

    Hi Kiz (-:

    Not sure I followed your train of thought, tbh, kiz. It seemed to be that you're the Queen of Cif, and we're all expected to trail in the wake of your drivel, whereas on here your thoughts are challenged for the nonsense they are and your courtiers aren't here to delete, ban and hang your opponents.

    You talk nonsense, kiz. You and bru, the pair of you, boring and bland as fuck, you always have been.

    Not that that's a sin in itself. Christ knows we all need to know which shoes and handbags are in this season.

  51. Jen, "How is Middlesbrough seen?"

    All together now, "best through a rear view mirror"


  52. Thanks habib I was waiting for someone to say as a shithole but that is better. ;)

  53. It's a bit of a cop out to claim that you can't actually ban anyone from this site, Montana. You can encourage a consensus. You have email contact with most of the regulars, surely? Your word counts for more than most, whatever you might think. You write the daily blog we all respond to.

    Anyway, I'm not going to make an issue of it. I don't care enough to make an issue of it.

    I just hate hypocrisy.

  54. @ jennifera, Newcastle genuinely doesn't have much of a problem, and indeed has a very strong anti-fascist 'scene'. Most of the Nth East is good too, but for some reason, Sunderland has become a focus point or hot-spot for BNP recruitment and is somewhere they've especially targeted. Nothing like Leicestershire or Barking,mind, and it's debatable whether Sunderland is that bad: no BNP councillors (the Nth East is the only English region without any),and looking at the 2010 results, it appears that Sunderland folk did reject the racists quite firmly.

  55. Thanks Alisdair I heard on local news recently that we have the lowest rate of immigration in the contry, don't know if it is true but if it is it means that even those fleeing wars don't want to live here.

  56. Montana I'm not in a position to offer advice on how anyone should 'read' or understand any post. Least of all you. .

    You have to have the same rights to read and interpret the efforts of other UT's that we all have. You are as entitled as anyone to be offended by what you read. I would not wish it any other way.

    My problem is that with my own contributions I am acutely aware that if I took more time and put more thought into them they would be much clearer. But the fact is that in my contributions I don't put a lot of time in before I hit 'post', and thus on occasion they have an ambiguity in them that I have to recognise and sometimes accept.

    I usually travel in the hope that others give me the benefit of the doubt. That being the case I usually extend the benefit to others as my default position.

    I would of course not wish to appear a total naive fool - there is always the case of the possible double bluff!! Who the fuck am I to say that BB is not engaging in a double bluffer she like you is a clever person and a sometimes sophisticated writer.

    All that can fairly happen is that your fellow UT's read both your pieces and views thereon and draw their own conclusions!

    I think you and I are in complete agreement on the history and understanding of the billip affair - but you describe it more elegantly. You of course were unlikely to have been on the piss last night thus you start with a clearer head.

    Wild horses couldn't make take sides.

  57. evening all
    congrats alisdair to you and your better 'alf!

    indeed dennis a true republican....! but damm crazy actor......
    this is one of my favorite quotes, 2001, how he lived to be 70+ was a bloody miracle:

    "I`ve been sober now for 18 years. With all the drugs, psychedelics and narcotics I did, I was [really] an alcoholic. Honestly, I only used to do cocaine so I could sober up and drink more. My last five years of drinking was a nightmare. I was drinking a half-gallon of rum with a fifth of rum on the side, in case I ran out, 28 beers a day, and three grams of cocaine just to keep me moving around. And I thought I was doing fine because I wasn`t crawling around drunk on the floor."

  58. In the early days there wasn't even a need for 'emails' there was the closed door of the phonebox.

    There seem to have been a belated recognition that it couldn't be a healthy device in the long term and thus the closed phonebox ceased to exist. I for one thought that was wise and had it not happened I doubt that I would have wanted to be here.

    I do also think that the consensus that developed around the billip position could be seen occurring out on the open pages of UT.

    I've never had any suspicion of covert email campaigns against anyone on UT but since emails between consenting adults are private it must always be possible. But I read integrity in most who post here so I consider it unlikely.

    There is, on my reading, pretty much an open consensus that Hank should stay and hopefully make a more focussed contribution in future. Nobody can force him. How he reads and responds is up to him.

    No guarantee that he will respond or indeed that the consensus in his favour will hold for ever.

  59. heh, dennis hopper, full of shit. Easy Rider was a massively overrated film, and Apocalypse Now would have been better served if Hopper's whacked out hippy shite had been edited out.

    As for the rest? Blue Velvet? Jeez.

    meh. Who cares? I always detested all that self-indulgent hedonistic shit he did.

  60. That is some consumption gandolfo!!

  61. @deano - where's the consensus that I should stay? And where are the directions to me about how my contributions should be more "focussed"?

    Should I read back before yesterday's posts?

    If so, do I want to? Should I care?

    Hell, deano, why the fuck should I care? If I choose to post on here, assuming Montana doesn't ban me, why the fuck should I care what anyone else on here thinks of my contributions?

    The trouble with this place, as with Cif and waddya, is that too many people are happy to put their opinions out here in cyberspace only if those opinions are met with bland reassurance, a big soothing pat on the back that they're right, that we all agree with you and just loved what you said over on Cif.

    Nobody here wants to be challenged. Unless we can all be challenged, and we can all join in ganging up on the challenger, whether it's Bitey or NapK or me or you.

    I'm not here to be loved, deano. I don't care what you or others think.

    If that makes me a troll here now, then I guess that's what I am.

    Better that than a nodding dog.

  62. @gandolfo

    Jeez!!!What sort of shape are you in now?

  63. Afternoon

    I see it's been another day dominated by fruitless argument. I agree Habib - it's boring.

    The place seems to be morphing into neurosis central.

  64. The Cure

    A Forest


  65. Paul
    I'm pretty good considering but i didn't do the rum.......

  66. Hi sheff - give us something other than "fruitless argument" then.

  67. There's no directions out there Hank just a number of observations made from a number of UT's over time. There is no compulsion to read anything here and there's no instruction either

    As the saying goes others observations don't amount to a row of beans and I don't think anyone would expect you to do anything other. than what you want. You have the same freedoms as all.

    I've no desire to contribute to or provoke another row so its over and out from me.


  68. How about repetitive, boring and fruitless arguments. ;)

  69. Alisdair/Jennifera

    It would be interesting to see whether race relations
    in the NorthEast would change if there was a huge
    increase in the number of people from visible ethnic
    minorities living there.The NorthEast does after all
    have one of the most homogeneous populations in England.

    Ethnic minority communities in the NorthEast aren,t in any position to assert any real upward pressure from the grass roots.So they really are at the mercy of the White British majority.In London it,s different because the much greater level of diversity means that racial/religeous tensions can go every which way.And the dynamics between communities can vary sharply depending on which part of London you live in .

    But even in London White British people are still over-represented in many of the established
    anti-racist groups.Black and Asian people are more
    likely to form their own groups in their own neighbourhood.And it is in their own neighbourhoods
    they are therefore in a stronger position to assert
    upward pressure from the grass roots.But as i said
    before it can vary from neighbourhood to neighbourhood.And we now also have a real gang problem
    in London where gangs are increasingly formed on
    ethnic and religious lines.Which obviously can
    undermine the work of community based groups.It,s
    an increasingly complex situation here.

  70. I don't know how those stats work Paul we have always had a pretty visible Pakistani population here but I don't think many of them would count in immigration stats as they are second and third generation.

    It is only in the last decade that many other nationalities have started to arrive and it is only very recently that we have started to see black faces on the estates.

  71. Jen

    From memory around 3% of the population of the
    North East comes from an ethnic minority community.
    And that includes second and third generations etc.
    For England-as opposed to UK-the figure is about 10%.
    In London it is around 40%.These figures include the
    growing White ethnic minority communities as well.

    Dunno why but i had you down as a Londoner as well.

  72. Nope Paul I am a smoggie (such a nice nickname but it could be worse).

    I have moved around the country a bit but I haven't spent much time in London, doesn't seem to matter where I go though I always end up back here. :(

  73. gandolfo

    Am glad to hear it.You,re lucky to be alive man!

  74. OK, read back through this last week's threads. Not much there I didn't know, but to see it spelt out so graphically, so heartfelt, it's painful to read.

    But there's no reason why MW and BB should get into a "pissing up the wall" contest about it.

    On a lighter note, I really enjoyed Jay's "old man" posts a few days ago. Jay seemed to get more confident and less coherent the longer the night went on, and the longer I failed to appear.

    Bless him.

    For those who don't know, Jay is the only person who ever got reinstated to Cif after being banned.

    He really "hearts" Jess xxx

  75. paul
    yep i'm alive but dennis hopper whose quote it was is guess what........dead.....miraculously not from alcohol or drug abuse though !

  76. Thirteen million Londoners have to cope with this, and bake beans and allbran and rape, and I'm sitting in this bloody shack and I can't cope with Withnail. I must be out of my mind. I must go home at once and discuss his problems in depth

  77. This comment has been removed by the author.

  78. "For those who don't know, Jay is the only person who ever got reinstated to Cif after being banned."

    I was not the only, i was not the last, i was not even the first poster reinstated. This was discussed when LordS was reinstated (an event you are happily ignoring). Yet I'm the incoherent one, got it...

    I didnt exchange a single word with JessReed over my banning - it was Seaton and the mods (and Seaton loathes me, as you well know).

    Have you really got nothing better to do, no more serious political debate to be having?

  79. Hi leni - "all immigrants with poor English skills need help..."

    Why? Seriously, should we be allowing immigrants into this country if they need that basic level of support?

    Surely that costs taxpayers a lot of money through state support, and very little return to state coffers through taxation given the tendency of South Asian immigrants to adopt a cash culture, keep the money in house, and avoid any kind of contact with the state, including the taxman...?

  80. Hi Leni

    Absolutely right. Hindus for instance are outstripping
    every other religious/ethnic group in Britain-both
    academically and economically.

    The point i was making earlier is that there are such wide and growing disparities-in that case with regard
    to the spatial dimension-that we can,t have a one
    size fits all approach to race relations/anti racism etc.

  81. Oh yeh, Lord S as well. Another guy with loads of interesting things to say while he should be working. Ho hum.

    Jaffa cakes anyone?

  82. Back to jaffa cakes again, ok...

  83. Evening Hank

    @Leni-With regard to Language i think we had this
    conversation before.Accepted asylum seekers should
    be given all the help they need.But those coming in
    on work permits,marriage visas and student visas
    should prove they have a working knowledge of English
    before their visa is granted.

    Dunno whether you heard of a recent case where a
    Turkish woman was given a Turkish-speaking counsellor
    to help her quit smoking.At taxpayers expense and
    because it was her Human Right.And she wasn,t a refugee.

  84. Sorry, jay. The jaffa cakes was a cheap shot.

    Come on then, son, the floor's yours, let's have the benefit of your wisdom...

  85. No i insist, you're the man saying everyone is failing to comment to an acceptable standard. So you tell us, what do you want to talk about, lets hear *your* wisdom. It is not me that lays claim to wisdom or superiority, its you.

  86. Hi Hank

    if they are allowed to come here they need to be able to participate abd contribute. The current situation allows for many nonEnglish speakers to come - particularly women who are often excluded socially and economically.

    Your question takes us back at least one step to the question of which people are allowed to come in future - selection criteria. That is another matter and is certainly up for debate.

    Refugees or asylum seekers often do not have English language skills.

    The registration of self employed, small businesses and employees is supposed to cover tax gaps between different communities. The numbers of people acting within the 'black economy' I don't know. It is not confined to the Asians here - that I do know. Have you got figures ?

  87. Leni

    But would like to talk to you more about this.Am
    gonna have to go off-line soon.Hope you,re well.

  88. Evening Paul. Keep the noise down, please, Paul, jay's about to tell us why us old-time lefties got it wrong banging on with our socio-economic theory of society.

  89. Right, when was i saying that exactly? What on earth are you talking about?

  90. Leni

    Quick post.That was the point i was making.Shouldn,t
    people coming here on a marriage visa demonstrate
    a working knowledge of English before the visa is
    granted?Personally i think they should.Gotta go x

  91. You just pick random little stories without the slightest thought as to whether they apply to the person you're attacking. What are you talking about? Find me a post criticising "old" leftyism compared to "new". Find me a post saying socio-economic thoery is irrelevant, compared to say racial or gender or identity theory.

    Its the sheer lack of factual accuracy in your smears that winds me up. What are you talking about?

  92. Leni - it's a big question. Asylum seekers should be given asylum, no more than that. Economic migrants should be allowed entry only if they add value and can do jobs that can't be done by those already living here.

    The truly disgraceful thing about immigration is that it only now benefits the rich, and yet the debate is skewed by those in service of the rich to paint those who oppose it as racists.

  93. Hank what do you mean asylum and no more than that?

    If we take them into our country isn't it our responsibility to make sure they have an acceptable standard of living?

  94. "it's the sheer lack of factual accuracy in your smears that winds me up."

    Heheh. And you said that I'd sent my son to private school...

  95. @jennifera - no, we give them protection, which is what asylum means, until they no longer need protection.

  96. Fucking twenty three million people. That is 20 - point - three MILLION people.

    Living in Cairo. A city with an infrastructure built for a million point five, max.

    Do you know what that looks like ?

    Do you know that that smells like ?

    Try being there at five thirty in the morning.

    Eight lanes of insane trafic fly over, under, beside and at you, they haven't stopped, those roads are open 24/7, and are full to capacity of dissapointed human beings. No real sewersage systems, no real state education (it's ALL Sharia bulllshit now), no electricity, gas or water - NONE of it without playing the right religio/politico games, nor without bribes. None.

    The rich people are *fucked* if they have their kids grow up there - in the middle of a desert surrounded by death, polution, scum, unliscensed organ trsansplanters.

    So they move further east into the desert.

    *NEW Cairo*. Gated. Armed response security. 24/7 water for *lawns*. Private schools. Shopping malls. Eight million people due to live there by 2025.

    Tell me the world ain't fucked.

    You tell me that.

  97. How are we protecting them Hank if we don't provide them (and remember a lot of them are children) with what all human beings need to survive.

  98. Jay - you're an archetypal Guardian reader. It's why you're so popular on Cif. You wank on and on about identity and gender, like every adolescent misfit boy hoping for a shag.

    You haven't got anything to say about money.

  99. So again you avoid the question. Your first fact about banning was wrong, so you shut up about that.

    So you move to jaffa cakes. Then you ask for my wisdom, and i point out its you who is making the claims of wisdom and superiority.

    So then you claim i criticise "old lefties" for focusing on socio-economic factors - a perfect inverse of reality. So you get called again, so you go back to the private school thing.

    This is woeful.

    Private school - i was wrong and i apologised (twice) for the error (something you seem incapable of). But you did say yourself of that year in Innsbruck "Its cost me a bit, but its been worth every penny". So you did have to pay to give him that opportunity in one form or another.

    But yes, its not a private school.

  100. @ Paul, according to Newcastle City council the BME population is 10%. Predominantly Indian subcontinental Asian,and Chinese,but with sizeable African community (which dwarfs the Afro-Caribbean population), and a pretty big Kurdish presence too (and this is all before counting refugees and asylum-seekers, many of whom are 'posted' to Tyne & Wear in Govt attempts at dispersal away from London: T&W takes more than any other English region) .People can forget that quite well established BME communities existed pre-Windrush:eg Tyneside has had a biggish Somali presence for over 100 years, ditto for the Sikh community, and from pre-Partition Punjab:we're not looking at 2nd or 3rd generations often but 5th,6th,even 7th, so these communities are wholly accepted and seen as Geordie.Regarding wider diversity, Gateshead has the country's second largest Orthodox Jewish community.
    Where things change significantly is when you get into the sticks, the wilds of Northumberland, or County Durham dales, but that's a nationwide pattern. Very very few folk from a BME background live in rural areas: less by way of tailored support should it be needed, plus of course the generic factors that lead to many folk (apart from moneyed second-homers) leaving the countryside: poorer job opportunities,poorer transport and communications, and neglect by local and national govt.

  101. Oh don't be so fucking soft, jennifera. Do you know anything about asylum? Do you think that those we give asylum to are just placed into 6 by 2 cells with neither bread or water?

  102. Christ this is getting absurd.

    "You wank on and on about identity and gender, like every adolescent misfit boy hoping for a shag."

    Identity politics, one of the things which i criticise most regularly. The "hoping for a shag" type identity nonsense would be coming out with feminist platitudes, wouldnt it? This is like speaking to an amnesiac.

    "You haven't got anything to say about money."

    I have posted literally thousands of posts about money, wealth, tax and financial inequality, nationally and globally. I have repeatedly argued that the primary divisive factor in this country is wealth, not identity "wank".

    You could barely have written a bigger load of nonsense if you'd tried.

  103. Hank

    My biggest gripe of all is that global movements of people benefit the rich and the educated - they are free to move, live where they will and also to move the poor around to their own advantage.

    The poor who generally come as economic migrants are generally dependent at least for a while - sometimes on exploitative members of their own communities. Those brought here from places like Bangladesh are often exploited - used as cheap labour in restaurants etc. Many lack basic education.

    we read about the plight of women brought here as brides - often not willingly - but fail to recognise the misuse of young men by employers.

    The movement of people as cheap labour - guest workers as they are known - , people dependent upon continuing employment and sponsorship to stay here. Often they are moved out of their jobs , go underground , to be replaced by others.

    trafficked illegally moved people are as much used by their own communities as anyone else.

    Clearer rules, without sentimentality - would create a more humane system.

    The resettlement of refugees through agreement with UNHCR is a seperate issue.

  104. Well where's the fucking synergy there.

    My factory town = population circa
    30 k forty years ago, now = 200 k plus, all the jobs in public sector, distribution, niche engineering and smes and shops.

    Give all that to lowest possible rent employees - with no language skills

    You're left with public sector.

    About to get fucked under LibCons.

    But we have to - with social assiatance - help the guys driving taxis who don't fucking know where Market Street is ?

    No. Cunts.

    Fuck off.

  105. "you're an archetypal Guardian reader."

    I think most Graun readers and posters here would disagree.

    "It's why you're so popular on Cif."

    I'm not, there is a mountain of posters who loathe me with passion and i have had god knows how many hundreds of enormous rows with them - many of them being the stereotypical Graun *progressives*.

  106. I am a bit soft Hank (and not at all ashamed of that fact), and no I don't think they are placed in small cells with bread and water but that is what you seemed to be suggesting.

    I may have got the wrong end of the stick but you seemed to me to be suggesting that we owed these people nothing beyond the fact we were not sending them home to be tortured or killed.

  107. Hank -
    "The truly disgraceful thing about immigration is that it only now benefits the rich, and yet the debate is skewed by those in service of the rich to paint those who oppose it as racists."

    I agree, Gordon Brown's nice little outburst during the election is typical of the way this subject has been treated for the last 30 (40?) years.

    Actually its always benefitted the rich, it drives wages down. The British Labour Movement will not deal with the problem sensibly until they give up on 'identity politics'.

  108. jenni

    Asylum seekers - as opposed to economic immigrants - are a different issue. My view is that those whose status is debateable should be in the care of UNHCR or British equivalent.

    The confusuin between the different groups and the differing reasons for their coming here plays into the hands of those who oppose all immigration.

    The global problems resulting from the movement of people will have to be addressed. Climate change regugees is on the increase in addition to those fleeing conflict and economic despair.

    Anybody living within our national boudaries should be treated humanely and afforded dignity - unfortunately it seems to be beyond our capacity or will to this - even for people born here.

  109. Schooling funds allocation is another area where the poorer suffer most - funding is prioritised on, i think, % of free school meals and % pupils without English as a first language.

    That is a big redistribution of funds from existing poor communities in the country to incoming communities. The same people whose kids will lose out from that are likely the same people having their wages squeezed.

  110. Hey Jay, itemise your arguments one by one and I'll address them. It'll be fun.

    Ah fuck it, you're a waster. I'll do it.

    1. You were banned. You pleaded to get reinstated. You got reinstated. It was nothing to do with the fact that you kissed arse. Nor did LordS. Neither of you are kiss arses. You're both really interesting posters who are really snidey about all the things that Jess is snidey about, but you're never snidey about the things that Jess has told you that you can't be snidey about. Big fucking deal. Big brave men.

    2. Jaffa cakes. You and Kiz and LordS and Waddya and Jess and Bru and AllyF and "oh, I really don't know, this argument, it really takes the biscuit, ha ha ha". Nuff said. Wankers.

    3. I've never seen a post from you, Jay, which indicated that you understood the Marxist analysis of society.

    4.More to the point, I don't think you understand the Marxist analysis of society. You rely too much on the post-Marxist view of society beloved of your fellow Guardianistas, the wankers who think that the class war is over, and you and your post-feminist mummy has won.

    5. You can't even apologise properly can you? My lad was doing a year out from his university course. As he was doing a language course, he was entitled to an Erasmus grant (google it) so got his tuition fees paid for his year in Innsbruck. The expenses I incurred were my spending money when I had ten days, ten fantastic days, over there with him at Xmas.

    You're wrong on all fucking counts, Jay.

    You always were.

  111. However assylum seekers should be supported decently and helped to be self supporting if possible. The media have encouraged people to see all assylum seekers as 'bogus'.

    Being 'tough' on people who have fled persecution is nothing short of disgusting.

    Giving them assylum and 'nothing else' is worse than refusing entry in the first place.

    I recall that in the 30's during the Spanish Civil war the government of this country refused to support refugee children from Republican Spain. Here is South Wales ordinary people made collections to support them and on that basis they were let in.

  112. @annetan - yeh, course it has. Which is why I've always despised the Guardian's obsession with identity politics.

    If the middle class professions were "swamped" with cheap immigrant teachers, social workers, lawyers and accountants, we'd be in the midst of a fascist revolt.

  113. My neighbour in this factory town. Sixty. Fucked over by an abusive father, an ex husband and a brother; she spends her last twenty years caring for her incapacitaed, ungrateful, abusive father; sees her rights and due recompense as a carer systematically taken down year by YEAR under "Labour" until she doesn't know what to do. Her daughter - married a prick - got two kids thanks - she can't get a decent paid CLEANING job since 2005 because she'll be undercut on immigrant cleaning wages. Another old boy - a mate - a chippy. Also fucked by fucked up parents. Wharehouse foreman. Lost his job in 2004 due to incompetent (national) sales team screwing his work planning. Nice guy. Small mortgage. Can't even get a forklift job at minimum wage now, let alone the nine quid per hour he would have got once.

    Thanks to unfettered market of low-wage semi/non-skilleded migration.

    Fuck all of that.

  114. jay

    Tis is one of the reasons I think resettlement budgets - with agreed policies - should be funded outside normal budgets.

    Agreed quotos for taking displaced people who have no hope of returning home allows for budgeting and provision of education, housing and the better distribution of incomers.

    The free for all in destinations - immigrants flooding into already established ethnic communities - or the dumping of them into run down council accomodation which pays huge subsidies the council depts. without increasing health or education budgets leads to anger and resentment. These areas also tend to be areas of high unemployment.

  115. Anyone hearing these stories ?
    Of course not.
    Makes me a fucking RACIST.

  116. Yes thats all true Bitters but the enemy here isn't the immigrant, its deliberate lack of control by the employing class and the complete absence of any Labour Movement involvement in defending wages and working conditions.

    Why do you think Thatcher set out to destroy the trade union movement? It was part of her strategy to turn this country into a low wage economy - she succeeded.

    As Hank says if we had loads of immigrant teachers social workers etc there would be a different reaction. There wont be of course because currently such people are on national pay scales.

    But watch this space when all those academies are opened!

  117. Anne

    In the 80s I visited a refugee family from Ethiopia - part of the ruling elite prior to expulsion.

    The father had been to Public school here and spent most of the short holidays here staying with friends' families.

    I asked him if he had a different view of UK now he was living in a council flat. He certainly had and noted glumly that none of his former friends wanted to know him.

  118. Anne.

    Well hot fucking diggity dog.

    "its deliberate lack of control by the employing class and the complete absence of any Labour Movement involvement in defending wages and working conditions."

    - and they says we're just full of rhetoric you knows ??

    I've been banned nine times OVER trying to point out this zero-sum middle class benefit that Labour gave the 4x4 cunts in Surrey.

    Hence my loathing of them - The Guardian, CiF, and middle England.

    If only the left could take over and occupy the EDL...

  119. Bitterweed

    bno - your'e not a racist - at least not necessarily which is to say that racists can and do use these situations to further their case. But no - you are not a racists.

    If we look at it logically we would recognise that moving a large group of people from London to Leeds, overcrowding the schools and hospitals and competing for jobs and scarce housing would create the same problems.

    Too many people in any area which cannot provide for them creates tensions.

    The 'carrying capacity' of an area in terms of jobs, housing and services is not considered by those making the policies. The inevitable outcome of overcrowding and scarce resources is conflict.

  120. K, so we're moving on again are we. At least we're getting somewhere now.

    1. I have been over the banning incident many times, i think you're the only one still wanting to talk about it. As for Jess, i have had plenty of rows with her, i dont understand your repeated mentions of her. I'm lost as to her relevance to the discussion.

    2. I think i have posted probably around 10,000 posts, possibly more. I just checked the search, i have mentioned jaffa cakes 7 times in total, on a total of 2 threads - in 3 years of posting. And this is your idea of a worthy subject for attack.

    3. I didnt study Marxism at school or college (except within Russian history), but read Capital off my own back and studied it in my degree.

    But i'm no expert, you're spot on. I've never claimed to be.

    Then we're back to your usual nonsense - im a guardianista who thinks class war is over. Where do you get this from?

    And what the fuck is my "post-feminist mummy"? Do explain.

    Ok, it was a holiday. I'm terribly sorry, hank. Throwing baseless accusations around is something you'd never dream of.

  121. I don't think being angry at the situation you find your friends and neighbours in is racist Bitterweed.

    Quite a few people I went to school with and even members of my own family have done some cash in hand less than minimum wage work.

    Why not blame the employers who are paying these wages or the fact that people who don't have professional qualifications can get much of anything else.

    Blaming the person who is just trying to make a life for themselves doesn't make sense to me.

    And I know I said that I am a bit soft but I don't think that all immigrants whether they be asylum seekers or economic migrants are angels but I certainly don't think they deserve to be blamed for the situation either.

    It is just one more step down the road of blaming the person below for the shit we are all in.

  122. Anne

    As you say - watch this space. I read recently of a suggestion to abolish national pay rates for teachers.

    The privatisation of various social services will kill off pay scales there - is already doing so. Old peoples homes, bail hostels etc.

  123. Leni

    Which puts me in bed with "migration watch" statsiticians and at odds with virtually everyone aspiring to government/governance.- because they have to tick the equity boxes to even have a shit.

    Fucked up country we live in.

    You all really want to try spending a Saturday afternoon out in my town centre, you really do. Coal-face ineptitude sponsored by global spivvery.

  124. "Blaming the person who is just trying to make a life for themselves doesn't make sense to me."

    I have NEVER done that.

    Show me where I've done that.

  125. You haven't used those exact words BW but blaming the immigrant cleaners for undercutting your neighbours daughter instead of blaming the person who is paying the immigrant (who is unable to get a minimum wage job either) is close.

  126. 1. "I have been over the banning incident many times." And? HankScorpio's still banned. JayReilly gambols carefree...

    2. You checked? Saddo. As you and your bf kiz should know, "jaffa cakes" is short hand for timewasting tossers who spend all day on Cif when they should be working for a living. The timewasting tossers who spend their time telling the rest of us how we should be working harder, or smarter, or leaner, or with less tea breaks. And if you can't see how you and your chums don't get right up the noses of the rest of us, those of us who are actually working, then you really do need a fucking slap.


    4. Oh, seems like Jay only did the OU course up to number 3.

    5.Yeh, it was a holiday, Jay. Thanks for the apology, graceless as it was.

    6. Baseless accusations - you know what, kiddo, I don't think I have.

    7. "Old man" - I've got more stamina than you, jay. Not to mention more grounded arguments and better insults, sweetheart xx (-;

  127. Bitters

    i think it is generally agreed by those capable of thought that the lack of a clear and transparent immigration policy has been used to -
    Reduce wages.

    Cover up inadequate social provision.

    Advance identity politics thereby splitting the opposition .

    To kill off the Left by creating inter racial tension among the working classes - making them compete with each other rather than acting acting collectively to counter neo liberalism and the ascendency of the service/banking economy.

  128. Even if I were currently well enough to work I know that I wouldn't find a job unless I was very lucky.

    Hundreds of people are going for any job that is going lately, I don't blame those other people for going for those jobs (or even being more employable, the bastards) I blame the fact that there are no jobs out there.

    And if a mate or even a mate of a mate offered me a bit of cash in hand for some cleaning work I don't know if I would turn it down (thus doing someone elso out of a job maybe).

    I wish this stuff was a bit more clear cut sometimes I don't know what the fuck I think half the time.

  129. jennifer30. Steady. Calling me close to racist is fighting talk.

    I haven't.

    Show me where I've done that.

    Here's the thing. British adoption of

    i EU free movement of labour and
    ii working time directives

    - gave New Labour the massive shits in terms of keeping city/CBI/spiverry on board.

    So instead of adopting - as did Germany and France - sliding migration scales for accession countries, GB, said " all doors open to anyone, anytime". So a million unskilled and desperate to please rushed in

    That's politics for you

    My observation of these facts has indeed caused discomfort and consternation over at Comlpiance is Forever, but here I expect a better class of slagging off...

  130. "HankScorpio's still banned. JayReilly gambols carefree..."

    This is what it comes down to, isnt it, this is the real reason for these attacks. You are so in love with the legend of "HankScorpio" that it drives you mad i kept my moniker and you didnt. For a man who claims to only care about issues, this really is laughable.

    Saddo - they've got a search box mate, not exactly years of research.

    Work for a living, yep, have done for a long time Hank. I asked you before, why should i work a minute longer than necessary for a multi millionaire? I dont feel obliged to, so i dont. I do my job, if i have time spare i come to UT/CiF.

    "The timewasting tossers who spend their time telling the rest of us how we should be working harder, or smarter, or leaner, or with less tea breaks."

    I have never done this, i have never lectured anyone to work harder whatsoever. Again, you're talking nonsense.

    "And if you can't see how you and your chums don't get right up the noses of the rest of us,"

    Who are you speaking for exactly? If i get right up the nose of the majority here i'll happily leave.

    "Baseless accusations - you know what, kiddo, I don't think I have."

    I've called you on plenty this evening alone.

    ""Old man""

    We jumping back to the other night now, presumably.

    You do have more stamina, you do have better insults, your arguments are usually better, but your arguments tonight have been fucking woeful. Really.

    And to be honest, i am not trying to compete with you, i am not laying claims to any sort of expertise, wisdom or authority, and never have done. I am just replying to your repeated and unprovoked attacks. Because despite your fine words, these days - this is about as serious as you get.

    I asked what my "post feminist mummy" was, you havent responded.

  131. Leni

    Thank you for 00:12


  132. Hey BW I never meant to imply racism on your part I assume that you would be equally fucked off if I underbid the woman you were talking about.

    I do certainly think it is divide and conquer though, I know a friend of mine is always going on about immigrants working for peanuts and stealing our jobs but she has done the cash in hand stuff herself, she has also claimed as a single person while living with someone.

    If she knew these people she would understand that they are just doing the same things she does in order to provide for her family (she used to be very anti lesbian until she met a few working in the abbatoir) but she is saturated with this idea that there is a type of person who is more reviled than even we benefit scum.

    All you here sometimes is immigrants, immigrants, immigrants and it takes, if everyone stood firm and said no to shitty wages we might have a chance but we don't and we probably never will.

    What I am trying to say in my ever so confused way is that people are not always rational and we like to think that if we could stop those we blame for our problems doing what we think is perfectly valid for us to do then everything would be ok.

  133. jenni

    The rise in unemployment in some areas is higher among people with no educational qualifications.

    If we concentrate in any one area a large group of unskilled workers - and many immigrants are unskilled - the jobs available do not increase but the number of applicants does.

    Educated and monied immigrants do not compete for council housing or places in local schoo;s. They can fund themselves and send their children to private schools.

    Towns which can no longer provide a variety of jobs , predominately the post manufacturing/mining areas - have large pools of skilled, semi and unskilled workers in competition with each other. Adding to their number is foolhardy and divisive.

    As unemployment in the public sector rises because the jobs have been wiped out more workers will be added to the pool.

    The better off, middle class areas have fewer immigrants and those that do live there tend to be educated, are in employment or own their own businesses.

  134. @jennifera30 Don't think BW's blaming or slagging off "immigrant cleaners". Just an agenda that's inherently dismissive of a sense of community.

  135. Interesting. Why was it so important to you, Jay, that your kept your identity on cif? Why did you grovel, beg and suck up to Jess?

  136. We're talking about you, Hank - you're Mr Superior, you're Mr Wisdom, you're Mr I-Only-Care-About-the-Issues. You're the big man, not me.

    It was important to me as that is how i know people and they know me, and i spent so much time on CIF back then that to lose that link with posters and lose my whole posting history (when they wiped the slate) was gutting.

    Secondly - they were wrong to ban me, it wasnt justified, so i kept arguing. It was capricious and it pissed me off and they never warned me a ban was coming.

    Finally - i didnt exchange a single word with Jess on the issue, i spoke to Seaton and the mods - all of whom loathe me and always have done (Seaton even says as much in a few of his articles over the years).

    But the sole commitment from me was no "abusive words" - which was fine, as i never abuse writers by using "abusive words" usually anyway.

    So thats me - thats the incident, over a year ago, which drives you to make these lengthy and repeated attacks against me.

    Your turn.

  137. Jennifer
    "If she knew these people she would understand that they are just doing the same things she does in order to provide for her family"

    How come you know them better then her ? She probably knows them better than you do. I fucking love my neighbours and every living son daughter I see in my street. Doesen't mean they all ought to be lving at number 68 and shitting in a bin liner does it ?

  138. Actually, Jay, disregard my post at 0.34 above. I know why. I cared about HankScorpio. I got recognition, and I got responses. I returned with different names but my heart really wasn't it.

    I'm sure that's why you were so keen for JayR not to be disappeared.

    Having said that though, I do care about the issues, but it's easier to speak about the issues and engage in debate on those issues with a recognisable id.

    Damn, I miss being able to be Hank on Cif.

  139. "i didnt exchange a single word with Jess on the issue,"

    Feel free to double check this with Jess on waddya, or by email. You're completely wrong.

  140. Leni:a good succinct diagnosis. When the Berlin wall collapsed with the co-incidence of Francis Fukuyama writing the "End of History" many people thought that capitalism had won the war of ideologies. We now know that this is not the case for the simple reason that capitalism is not sustainable.It doesn't matter if you agree with capitalism or not, it has no long term future. I'm no expert on Marxism but from what I can gather he predicted that capitalism would devour itself and self destruct.
    So, with communism and capitalism put in the dustbin, where do we go from here?
    To be honest I don't have clue other than that, in my experience 99.9% of the population of this planet manage to rub along quite well together in spite of the 0.1% screwing us for all we are worth!

  141. I don't know those people better than her BW (and considering we live about 30 seconds away from each other and spend a lot of time with the same people why whould I?)

    She doesn't know these people at all,she assumes that they are ruining her life because the papers and the tv tell her so.

    I trust that she would change her mind because she is pretty fair minded a lot of the time.

    Shitting in a bin liner?

    Now I am lost.

  142. Jenni

    Check out leni above. 100% agreement with her as ever.

    Just don't call me close to racist, ok.

    That's not a good thing.

  143. "Having said that though, I do care about the issues, but it's easier to speak about the issues and engage in debate on those issues with a recognisable id."

    Thats why i was gutted to lose JR, you know what its like, and i WAS gutted, and i said so. And when i got JR back i knew how frustrating that would be for you and MF and i said as much to both of you at the time, the post is still there, and i have repeatedly lobbied for you two (and others) to be reinstated.

  144. Evening all

    Seems like a great conversation going on.Really
    fcuked off i can,t be more involved.Great to see
    you Mr Scorpio.Dunno what it is about you man but
    you set this thread alight everytime you drop in.
    Wish i was able to come up to Sheffield to meet you
    next weekend.You been a bit harsh on Jay though!He,s not the enemy .

    Great points also Leni,Anne and Bitterweed.Tip hat
    to you.Will read thread more thoroughly when
    i,ve got more time.Gotta go.Will try and come back

    @Alisdair-cheers for the post.Will reply later.

  145. Ok BW it's done I did apologise above and yes I always tend to agree with leni too.

    Still confused about the bin bag though.

  146. Putting this on coz it's fucking brilliant


  147. Yeh, thanks for your efforts, Jay. I do appreciate it.

    All I'm saying is that I don't know why you were so desperate not to be banned given that everyone other than the biscuit gang either thought JayReilly was a bit of a twat or had never heard of him anyway.

    HankScorpio, on the other hand, was, as you concede, a legend on both sides of the pond.

  148. jennifera30
    "Still confused about the bin bag though."

    So am I

  149. "All I'm saying is that I don't know why you were so desperate not to be banned given that everyone other than the biscuit gang either thought JayReilly was a bit of a twat or had never heard of him anyway"

    Judging from the debate that followed I'm not sure thats strictly true, i did have a few supporters for some reason (and i am frequently a twat on CIF), but yes - JR is no HS. You're right. So why does it bother you so much? Thats what i dont get.

  150. Thanks Paul. But you probably shouldnt defend other UTers, not the done thing round here ;)

  151. You are all cunts. Even me.

  152. That wasn't meant in all seriousness, Jay.

    If I was asked to nominate my Top 100 Ciffers, you'd be in there.

  153. "If I was asked to nominate my Top 100 Ciffers, you'd be in there."

    Oh you tease...

    I'm happy with BW's comment as a closing statement, as i need to go bed.

    "You are all cunts. Even me."

    Night all.

  154. I think we need to be in the right place

    Drugs may have been used in the harming of this experience...

  155. OK, Bw, Jay's gone to bed so I can tell you now in confidence he'd be 99 at best.

    At best.

  156. Hank.
    I'm always 101. That's why they call me simple


  157. chekhov

    Some very tentative thoughts.

    The monied elite have always used, or instrumentalised, the majority. The nature of the demand upon labour varies and evolves as society changes. Dependent upon the labour of the masses the elite will always seek the cheapest labour possible. Globalisation allowed for the movement of production to the developing nations leaving the workforce here unwanted. Then mass immigration allowed a portion of the cheaper labour force to come to us !

    The rise of the service economy did not replace jobs lost but created the false economy based on trading and gambling on money movement and commodities - the lower echelons of the servoce economy includes taxi driving and cash in hand house cleaning , gardening etc. This is clearly unsustainable. The majority have neither ownership nor control.

    Political control by the Left would not guarantee economic control without control of the means of manufacture and the money markets. If we could take necessities back under control - food, housing and utilities leaving only luxury goods in the hands of the elite would be a start. Speculation around oil and food prices, the chicanery around mortgages on peoples homes means the elite control not only the workers but the basics of life. This system will implode I think because in the West at least it is now feeding off itself - self cannibalising.

    I would like to see the growth of cooperatives - businesses needing lower profits because share holders don't need a cut , have no control and therefore there is more for th workers. These would be small at the outset but would need to be ambitious and determined.

    The workers are not stupid, they don't need to be dependent forever . If we could agree a scheme whreby basic benefits for people were ensured for a 12 month period during which self employment or the formation of cooperatives was undertaken we could begin to address the problem. We need to decrease dependency on goods and services provided by capitalism and thereby further weaken it and those who control our lives.

    i'm talking serious business here - not just small food coops but alternative energy sources, house building - the whole lot. We, in this small village, could grow enough veg and provide eggs to be self sufficient - couple of hydroponic greenhouses. We have to stop being subservient.

  158. Here's an Eddie Kramer production of some stupd kid from the seventies who got bored with punk

  159. Insane BW, insane.The Cobwell thing.

    A bearded chancer-


  160. Leni
    Nice words yet again. Do you work with CDAs ? my good pal was a local governnment CDA in Luton for a few years. Marsh Farm estate. They got some stuff going on there. Despite the shit. Just wondering...

  161. navro
    here's the greatest europop ever:

    EVER mind

  162. Naff link me man. Was it a Willie Nelson thing?

    This is the shits.


  163. *
    Leni: nowt to disagree with but it will fall on deaf ears. The "Top Down" approach will continue until a "tipping point" is achieved. God knows when that will be, and I don't believe in God!
    Anyway thanks for your post. You make some sense at least!

  164. Navro
    No it was this


  165. Yeh - I like Prince a lot navsta.

  166. bitters

    No - work for myself
    One last thought - the elite are the ones who generally change society- we follow because we believe we need them.

    But - things happen which advance our cause marginally - usually wars or catastrophes. One outcome of the Black Death was that workers , too few in number, were able to move around between employers and force up wages.

    We have to stop waiting for something to happen and make it happen.

    Nightynight. x

  167. This comment has been removed by the author.

  168. Here we go then.Pure fucking class


  169. leni
    A great - succinct - analysis as ever. You cheer me up.


    Now, then rockers, here's some unreconstitued 70s nonsense. Jessse rides..

  170. That song is quite depressing. Don't know what this is


  171. That is, navro, technically speaking, my kind of howling shit.

  172. Tribute to the working man's blues:


  173. Leni

    ''One outcome of the Black Death was that workers , too few in number, were able to move around between employers and force up wages''.

    EXACTLY.Which is why time and time again on Cif and
    here i argue that immigration has to be tightly
    controlled.And that the Left has FCUKED up big time
    by embracing this ideology that anyone who complains
    about it is a racist.

    Am not talking about asylum-that,s different.But we
    need to tightly control the number of work permits
    we issue to people from outside the EU.And we need
    to put much tighter controls on marriage visas as
    well.Arranged marriages between British Asians of
    Pakistani and Bangladeshi ethnic origin and spouses
    from the sub continent are fuelling levels of poverty
    in those fast growing communities.High rates of unemploment and inactivity.High rates of families
    where one parent doesn,t have a basic grasp of
    English.And very high birth rates despite the high
    dependancy on benefits.

    As part of my goal to see population growth
    reduced i want to see child benefit restricted to
    2 children per women.This will disproportionately
    hit the Muslim communities but will also hit those
    from non-Muslim backgrounds who fecklessly have
    more children than they can afford.

    I have repeatedly been called a racist on Cif for
    expressing this opinion and i,ve been moderated
    more times than i care to remember.But i
    genuinely believe that the failure of the LEFT to
    address this has had a catastrophic effect on Black,
    White and Asian British working class communities
    all over the country.

  174. Yeh, couldn't agree more, Paul, except I'd go further - child benefit for the first child only, and means tested as well.

    Child benefit (or family allowance) only made sense when we needed a growing working population. We don't anymore.

    I'd also abolish charitable status for private schools and take away state funding for faith schools.

    It's time the Left remembered that it stood for equality, not diversity.

  175. Leni -

    We have to stop waiting for something to happen and make it happen.

    Couldn't have put it better myself!

  176. Hank - the problem with means tested benefits is thatthey often cost more to administer than the money they save. I am instinctively against the setting up of even more bureacracies.

    An even bigger problem (one that, in a sane society would be easier to fix) is that the bar is susually set too low so that people lose all the benefits as soon as they are 1p above the bar and really loose significantly by this (aka the poverty trap)

    Easier (and cheaper) is to claw back the benefit from the rich by taxation.

    Wont happen of course :)

  177. Hank OTH -

    I'd also abolish charitable status for private schools and take away state funding for faith schools.

    Agree totally with that the state should not fund religious instruction and the rich don't need charity ffs!

    Its time the left remembered that it stood for equality not diversity.

    Oh Yes!!!!!

  178. Morning all,

    Just popping in to say 'ello.... seen Alsidair's news..... big congratualtions ;)

    Missed most of the fisty--cuffs, but happy to see ruffled feathers soothed...as went out and burned some candles at both ends on Friday... mainly horizontal yesterday.... fingers were not functioning.

    Great news about David Laws. Hypcrites.

    Sad news about Dennis Hopper.. RIP.

  179. Paul:

    "As part of my goal to see population growth
    reduced i want to see child benefit restricted to 2 children per women.This will disproportionately hit the Muslim communities but will also hit those from non-Muslim backgrounds who fecklessly have
    more children than they can afford"

    I meant to respond to your questions the other day. You cannot just 'restrict child benefit to two children' nor can you enforce a restriction on family size as they have done in China (we all know the result of that terrible tyranny) The single biggest issue which reduces size of family for poor women is education and many women and young women in Bangladeshi communities (e.g)are very restrcited in their access to education.

    However, in this country we now have a bizarre situation where relatively wealthy white, middle class women are having 4 and 5 children 'because they can afford' it but also claiming child benefit!

  180. PS

    Nice to see you Hank!

    Right-o, going off to get horizontal again and digest my bacon sarnie....