10 May 2010


Louis XVI became King of France in 1774.  The National Gallery opened to the public in 1824.  The Sepoy Rebellion began in 1857.  The first transcontinental railroad in the United States was completed at Promontory Summit, Utah, in 1869.  Nelson Mandela became President of South Africa in 1994.

Born today:  Leon Bakst (1866-1924), Fred Astaire (1899-1987), David O. Selznick (1902-1965), Mother Maybelle Carter (1909-1978), Maureen Lipman (1944), Donovan Leitch (1946), Dave Mason (1946), Sid Vicious (1957), Bono (1960), Merlene Ottey (1960), Dennis Bergkamp (1969).

It is Mothers' Day in Mexico.


  1. Seventy years ago, today, Nazi Germany invaded the low countries at dawn.

  2. Greetings to a fellow Linux user from Germany (not to be confused with the one i mentioned above).

  3. Greetings back to you, medve (and to all other gals and guys hanging around here, too, of course).

    Sometimes I feel a little too visible on this site, here.

  4. Morning all - have interview this pm after telephone interview Friday. eep. nervous... keep things crossed for me...

  5. Everythin x-ed except wires Philippa! ; )

  6. The Gary Young thread is hotting up. JR on the ball.... MAM talking bollocks as per usual.

  7. PhilippaB:

    Best of luck!

    Sniff some lavender oil on a tissue before you start, it has a good calming effect.

  8. Best of luck, Phil. Not that you'd need it, I'm sure, but I'm having everything crossed as well.

  9. Good luck Philippa!

  10. xx. PB - You are a star young miss so if they have sense all should be yours.

    From Gary Younge's piece in today's Guard:

    "...There's a reason for this. These (rating) agencies are primarily funded by the banks that they are supposed to be rating, creating what several former officials testified was a fundamental conflict of interest. In the words of Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."

    So the very sector we bailed out with public money, run by incompetent people who are once again paying themselves bonuses, is now threatening to destabilise the next government unless it fires thousands of low-paid workers, cuts their wages and withdraws the services to millions of mostly poor people."

    A fine write made the better by the Upton Sinclair quote. I always liked Upton.

    My heavy usage of the net during the election means I've almost used my monthly allowance and so will have have to ration my participation for the rest of the month.

  11. Come back Edwin - you have been missed.

  12. Ah yes interviews, what I'd give for one of them, Anyway, today I will cut my losses and go and visit an art gallery or something. There is no point getting letting this job hunting take over my life. Anyway, I have sent out a grand total of 1, took ages due to tehnical problems on the computer.

    Count our blessings.

  13. Best comment on Cif ever by some paranoid ex-pat called ElMarco.


    ''Don?t forget the ?missing? 100-200,000 votes ?missing? from the NZ and Oz british voters ? most of us having already fled from the Brown Terror: so I have a very good Idea who those votes would have gone to!

    The votes were held up due to ? yes you guessed it that bloody Volcano!

    Utter Labour Bullshit!!

    - my guess is that the Union baggage handlers ?delayed? the relevant sacks of mail + of course this ?inconvenient truth? is being kept out of the media''


  14. Princess

    GY's thread is a cif classic this morning. Alive with loony tunes.

  15. SheffP;

    Alive with loony toons? You're telling me.

    Now we have MAM saying franco was only a 'little bit facist' .... I mean where do these people get off??

    As for that 1586 - deranged is the only way I can describe it.

  16. Just looking through CiF now.

    Daniel Hannan is the most execrable, disgusting, puss filled trogolodyte ever to inhabit the deepest reaches of Satan's fetid bum hole.

    Watch as the neo-liberal ectoplasm oozes out of his every orifice dissolving humanity, hope and progress.

    Weep as he champions the asset stripping of every last fucking scrap of Britain's productivity and wealth like a vicious vulture picking on a dead carcass.

    He is patriotic only in the sense that Britain must be out of all organisations that at least provide the minimum protections for companies and employees.

    He wants Britain at the mercy of his banking chums until every last drop of wealth is squeezed like a lemon into Cayman Islands, Belize and Swiss bank accounts.

    You are an enemy of the British people you so disingenously claim to represent and would sell anyone of us for a fucking penny.

    Hannan- away and suck on Rupert's flaccid one until you choke. And take Gove with you.

  17. Duke - i think you've been far too kind to Hannan, to be honest.

  18. LaRit

    mam probably put that in to wind people up and get them spitting blood. I don't know why they keep falling for it.

    There's a poster called tinlaurelandhardy I have managed to annoy. I think its bitey one of his many disguises. Anyone know?

  19. Yr Grace

    Where is this Hannan piece? As you so obviously admire him, I thought I'd take a look.

  20. Yeah, the fucking twats. MEanwhile the condition of the worker is devalued to the point of robotic compliance. I am still as mad as hell with the system of labour, which seems to reward stupidity, compliance nad not raising your head.

    Daniel Hannan can come and try getting a minimum wage job, and then find he can't because he doesn't have any fucking NVQs, or previous experience is essentail in a crappy job where I could learn in half an hour. But does saying having an intenese liking of 19th century Russian literature help me get a job? No, Independant thought alarm.,

    This country has gone to the dogs. I am not saying this from a right or a left wing perspective. I consider myself a bit of a mixture of liberal and small c conservative.

    Fuck fuck fuck, I am going to the art gallery to calm down this afternoon. Again, having an appreciation of art and culture does not grant any capital in the employment market, I need to have an NVQ in it.

  21. Sheff,

    here it's here

    You may also like to to read this on him launching the UK's very own tea party.


    I know, I couldn't possibly reveal my true feelings towards the man on a family website.

  22. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sDI2_FHqdg

    Independant thought alarm.

  23. Sheff,

    if you can stomach it, here's the Charlie Uniform November Tango rubbishing the NHS on Fox news.

  24. CiF is festering badly of late, isn't ? Not that it was ever that healthy,mark you, but fuck there are some vile posts and way too many combative, but horrendously blinkered or bigoted sorts, from New labour denialists talking utter shite about a 'progressive' putsch (please define progressive and tell me how New Lab neo-liberalism and Brownian authoritarianism represent progress towards anything except a dismal Brave New world of party and plutocrat 'alphas' and the masses as epsilon drones) to crypto-fascist Tories, who repudiate the tempering aspects of old-fashioned one nation paternalist Toryism and subscribe to the whole neo-liberal turbo-capitalist model without safeguards or concern for any outside their enclaves, to the unfunnily whimsical (all present company excepted: if you're going to add levity, make sure you're funny: follow the Duke and co for lessons), to the obsessional, to the bizarrely off-kilter, off-topic and plain factually wrong.
    Aye, let them all have their say, but just don't expect me to spend long perusing their output. It's becoming harder and harder to get at the nuggets of good posts in among the dross. That includes posts and posters with whom I may well disagree intensely, but who at least argue coherently. Too much static on CiF as things stand for me at the moment.
    Memo to Guardian towers: page-hits and volume of comments do not of themselves make a site of value.(Who'm I kidding: that's all they want- a busy site>>more hits>>more ad revenue, though their business plan is still horseshit, and charging will be in place within a year: you can't sustain losses of £100,000 a week)

  25. Sheff

    Re Tinlaurelandhardy

    I doubt v much they are bitey, the style/ content is v different. I 'know' them from book threads esp poetry. They're ok. I think you guys have kinda mis understood each other and should just let it go.

    Hope you're well

    (Oh Montana I appreciate that the UT was and still is an open site and not just one for closed minds. Thanks)

  26. Laurie Penny has turned up on Waddya want to write an article about the rise of the left vote amongst young people.

    She really has no self protection mechanisms at all does she. :-)

    Also a highlight from yesterday was Bubblecar on Andrew Browns thread about Philippa Stroud, replying to Andrews sad cry that half of Cif Belief hated him Bubblecar said he didn't hate him but increasingly though he was an idiot.

    Don't know if it is still there today.

  27. Hi everyone!

    Nearly recovered from staying up all night on election night!

    Interesting isn't it? Liked Gary Younge's article but of course the real point was that people really didn't have a clear choice the hung parliament is basically saying 'none of the above'

    TBH I don't think it matters which 'coalition' we get it will mean the same thing - the poor will pay the price.

    We need a move to a poltics based on principle not spin. This isn't going to happen over night but supporting John McDonnell's Labour Representation Committee would be a start.

    Basically the vast majority of people in this country, who have to work to avoid the penury of social security, don't have any party that has a genuine chance of power to represent them in parliament.

    Ultimately of course we need to nationalise the banks and what major industry we have left. Capitalism is a busted flush but it won't go unless its pushed.

    IMHO, whereas a move to more representation in parliament is a positive move that push will ultimately come from outside parliament.

    What representaion in parliament can do however is increase the confidence of the working class, thus making a 'push' more likely. At present people are too insecure and nore likely to keep their heads down.

    So the parliamentary tactic is simply a parliamentary means to an extra parliamentary end.

  28. Laurie Penny works for the Morning Star, she has been 'collating figures for them about how the far left did on Thursday'.

    That's her choice.

  29. Yr Grace

    I read that Hannan/tea party piece. 300 Brits with no sense of irony? Where did he find them?


    Okey dokey - you may well be right.

  30. I thoought that the Duke's linked 'Time' article about the tea party was wrong:

    ".......I'm afraid it was all frightfully low-key, British being British," says Simon Richards, director of the Freedom Association, a group of about 4,000 founded in the wake of Margaret Thatcher's reign to continue her conservative principles......."

    The slimy desipcable cock grooming, arse preening, toads in the Freedom Association were around before the cow got to power and in fact encouraged her in her madness:

    "The Freedom Association was founded in 1975 as the National Association for Freedom by the Viscount De L'Isle, Norris McWhirter, Ross McWhirter (murdered by the IRA in the same year) and John Gouriet [1]."

    I threw my 'Guiness Book of Records' out when I understood the link

  31. Alisdair,

    you've nailed cif's current clientele.

    And regarding UT clientele and echoing deano above, where are Edwin and BB? Did I miss a falling out?

    Laurie Penny- an entryist who will ultimately end up as a lifestyle journalist in Surrey.

  32. Does anyone know where this massive bailout money for the Euro has come from? are they going to print it or are member states to find it. Not read up on it yet. But a piece on the beeb said the Euro nearly collapsed at some point yesterday,

    Does this 500 billion now mean that all of Europe will face 'tough austerity measures' including France and Germany? So the poor of Europe have twenty years of hell to bail out the rich banks?

  33. Where is PeterBracken too?

  34. BB's machine is in for repair. Montana/Edwin had a different perspective on a matter but nothing terminal as far as I could see.

    Ed's back posting on WDYWTWA as...possible kind of relative of the King of The Beligans (that is if I understood it)

  35. deano,

    spot on. You don't need to do much digging to find that underneath the vacuous PR veneer, the Conservative and Unionist party have the most despicable influences running the show.

    - The Young Briton's Foundation
    - The Midlands Industrial Council
    - Murdoch
    - non doms Ashcroft and Laidlaw
    - Taxpayers alliance

  36. No falling out with Edwin and BB, Yr Grace. Don't know what's happened to Edwin but I think BB's pretty busy at the moment

  37. princess,

    the Dutch paper de volkskrant is saying that the EU has set up an emergency fund to prevent individual EU countries being attacked by market speculators with €60 billion being used immediately from existing reserves. No idea where the rest of the money is coming from.

  38. deano,

    I think Edwin's cif handle refers to Ulysses. Leopold being Leopold Bloom and 1904 referring to the year it is set.

    Edwin, get yer arse back on here, I can't be the only Glaswegian, Napoleon is only an honorary one ;)

  39. Hi all
    re where does the money come from:

    The 16 countries of the single currency bloc will contribute 440 billion euros of loan guarantees

    60 billion Euros European Commission funding from emergency funds.

    The IMF should contribute up to 250billion euros.

  40. PCC - think I read that ECB to follow BofEng into QE.

    Get yourself the Acer Orange Dream (as recommended yesterday.) - you won't regret it.

    You made some fine and agreeable posts yesterday. As ever I admire your stamina.

    Scherf - that's not me idly backslapping PCC. Truth is in her case I'm into fan worship.

    I note your UT followers tag is gone, was that you? -if so how fucking peeved can a wise man get?

  41. Thanks Deano - blushes. Will have a look at the Acer am going to go to the garden center this weekend (yeah yeah I know Scherf - but things are so god awful depressing right now that we need a few rays of light!)

    I think it is a good thing that the Euro countries are acting against the speculators I just have an awful feeling they will get far through the money and then the markets will turn on them again - these bastards (the speculators) need taking down not appeasing but don't know how that will happen.

    Sory if my posts are a bit rambling/ badly spelt etc today - am very tired.

  42. I think it was a Ulysses handle Duke - I was just wanting to think of a confused mod.

    I had thought to make some reference to 'Congo' rapists but thought that as possibly too obscure for an Oxbridge pup.

  43. A bit of frivolity (sorry scherf) which someone just sent me below. Please scroll over if you are not amused.

    In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

    The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

    Dear Dr. Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

    7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your adoring fan.
    James M. Kauffman,
    Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,
    Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education
    University of Virginia

    (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian :)

  44. BBC:

    "...It is thought that if countries being loaned money defaulted the total UK liability could be about £15bn, though about £7bn of this money was pledged to a previous bail-out fund.

    Alistair Darling, chancellor of the exchequer, said that the UK's exposure was "minimal" and that the UK was not underwriting the euro...."

  45. Robert Peston:

    "....What the ECB has said is that where there is evidence of markets malfunctioning in that way, it will intervene to buy up the relevant securities, to re-start the markets.

    However it will not be creating new money in the eurozone in the process of purchasing such bonds, because for every bond shunned by investors that it buys, it will sell other securities back into the secondary market to remove the additional liquidity it has created..."

  46. re: Edwin

    From my perspective, at least, we did not have a falling out. He made a comment about the American "left" and referred to Gore Vidal as support. I merely pointed out to him that, for all intents and purposes, America has no left and that the "average" American doesn't have a clue who Gore Vidal is and most of the ones who do don't give a flying fuck what he thinks about anything.

    I didn't mean it in any way as an insult to Edwin and I certainly hope that that isn't why he hasn't been around.

    As others have noted, BB has had equipment problems.

  47. Hope BB gets her puter working soon, because it would be good to have her views on owning Canadians.

  48. Sheff

    ".... A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?..."

    Cheers babe - we need a little light in dark times.

    Pleased to see the Civil Service union(s) won at court about the Redundancy Payments matter:

    "High court quashes cost-cutting measures that threaten level of redundancy pay for civil servants"

  49. Montana - I'm sure that Edwin is big enough not be offended by your observation. At 62 and 'wegian he fucking ought to be.

    I suspect that he's just having a periodic thrash around on CiF - I even posted a couple of inane comments on there yesterday, a first in about three months. I don't feel any strong desire to do it again today!


  50. OZKT29B has put an interesting piece up on the Karadic trial and the Bosnian war.

    Deano - I heard about the civil service pensions. I am quite conflicted about it as I think a lot of us (not all obviously) are very feather bedded compared with people working in the private sector.

  51. Sheff: The joke goes on for too long, I think. Rule of Three would have been better, IMO, but still, full points for effort and using the Word against the Word.

    Montana: Americans don't know Gore Vidal? This movie surely should have been enough to make his name infamous for all times amongst all connoisseurs of cinema. Although I, too, would probably be doubtful about any political credibility someone heavily involved with this movie ...

  52. I'd like to own a Canadian, unfortunately as an English person, I'll have to settle for a Scot, a Welsh person or a French person!

  53. Elementary

    Yes it is rather long - but you know what academics are like - why use 10 words when you can use 110.

  54. I see no reason to be 'conflicted' since it is my desire to see all workers in both public and private sectors having reasonable redundancy and pension rights.

    Our ability to get these does seem depend on getting more of a contribution from: the idle rich, the bankers, and those who so enjoy their unearned income.

    Beware the twats who would seek to dum down by dividing us and encouraging us to fall out and be at each others throats.

  55. Deano

    I agree and it might mean that people like me who's pension rights are gold plated (although this could change in present circs) might have to share some of their good fortune with people in less favourable circumstances - 'cos I don't think there's a hope in hell of persuading the bankers and idle rich into parting with any of their dosh for mere treadmill trudgers. (short of depriving them of it by force, which is a thought, of course)

  56. Nick Robinson BBC:

    "....Thus, it's increasingly clear that the Lib Dems face this choice:

    • An arrangement with the Tories which does not deliver electoral reform but does produce a stable government committed to introducing some Lib Dem priorities. The fear many Lib Dems have is that they would be tainted by association with the Tories who could call a snap election at a moment's notice.

    • A coalition with Labour with seats in cabinet, a pledge to change the voting system and a promise that Gordon brown will not be around for ever. The fear here is that they will be harmed by the allegation that they have created a "coalition of the losers" in an unstable coalition which could collapse long before it could deliver electoral reform...."

    Can't see a danger from 'coalition of the losers' tab myself.

    With so many not voting Tory why should the Libs be more worried about the alleged losers than a backlash from the 'coalition of those who did not vote Tory' if they slide on PR and get shafted by Tory tools.

    Right that really is my 'net allowance running out bell sounding now so


  57. Dot - if you can own a French person then surely you can own a Belgian or a Dutch person - or even a Dane (!???)

    I believe Leviticus also has rules about what should happen if an unmarried girl is raped - if the rapist is unmarried she has to marry him apparently!

    What we have to remember of course is that these 'holy' people 'know' which of these verses are currently to be obeyed - direct line to 'im upstairs and all that'!

    Endless fun to be had with this, fundies eh! They make me larf!

  58. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  59. Sheff, yeah, six words beat two words any day, for an academic. Worst of all are computer scientists with their silly little in-jokes, though.

  60. Regarding the Lib Dems and their choices.

    Their whole raison d'etre is electoral reform. They have found themselves as kingmakers despite having a worse election in seat terms from 2005 and only moved 0.9% up in shares of votes cast.

    This surely must ring bells in Clegg's head that the lib dems will never prosper under FPTP. There is no appetite for a third party under FPTP therefore you would suspect that they would take the best PR option in terms of pact.

    The Tories meanwhile seem as keen on PR as they do on fairness in society whilst on the other hand, Brown has made it clear that the immediate priority on offer to the Lib Dems is PR.

    In my opinion there's no way Cameron will budge on PR, those that run his party won't have it. Therefore if Clegg does work with the Tories, he'll reveal himself to be the vapid technocratic Tory I suspect him to be and the LibDems will lose all credibility.

    At least that's how I see it.

  61. Morning/afternoon all,

    Great posts Deano.
    You need to get your dongle doodah to be more generous I reckon, you've been on good form of late...

    (although I must admit that, until yesterday, when you were talking about the care and attention you gave to your acer, I, knowing very little about plants, thought that you just really, really liked your laptop!!)

    13th Duke,

    Great post.
    If Clegg doesn't take this opportunity to reform the UK's current election racket, I'm getting my f@cking pitchfork polish out....


    Boa Sorte, amiga!!

  62. Clegg is suicidial he could demonstrate his so called "devotion" to PR by actually teaming up with Lab and some of the "others" creating at least a symbolically representative government, rather than being smoochy with cameron and his ilk. At least when things go tits up he'd have some credibility left. The Libdems have always been so wishy washy and without balls that I'm not really surprised at what's likely to happen....

  63. Well, gandolfo, Labour has got Balls, but many seem to find this rather a bad thing than a good one.

    I guess my coat was hanging around here somewhere ...

  64. Robinson's staying as NI first minister then, not enough to lose your seat...if the party backs you..sod the voters.......

  65. Apropos of not much...

    I just checked my home constituency result in more detail, and, what was previously an 'ultra-safe' Labour seat according to that calculator whatsit, was in the end won by only 600 votes.


  66. Guard blog:

    "...3.16pm: According to Nick Robinson, when Gordon Brown does make his statement, he is expected to indicate that he is willing to stand down as prime minister once the financial crisis in Europe has stabilised.

    In other words, he is upping his offer to the Lib Dems; if they strike a deal with Labour, they will get a referendum on PR - and Brown's resignation"

    Hope they are all taking the same language. PR not AV or AV+!!!!!!???????

    Come on Brown fuck your place in the history books and the job at the IMF more important things at stake now!!!

    Cheers James - I may have to resort to an alternative dongle trick if this thing continues.

  67. deano,

    what about a blog called deano's dongle about your internet travails ;)

  68. So we are to suffer to keep the rich rich and make some of them even richer.

    As public sector jobs go, money in circulation falls and the private sector jobs go - down - down - down.

    As I said I see british politics as a very small cog in overarching, interlocking systems - however the gvt. (whoever ) now has the problem of giving the markets what they want without this buying them off the hook.

    The rich will also expect to gvt, to keep public order - the biggest flaw of all in systems which impact on populations is that human behaviour, individually and collectively, is unpredictable.
    The gvt. is about to run out of carrots. How big a stick do they actually have t keep the peasants in their place ?

  69. Gandolfo

    the Robinson saga is extraordinary - how he keeps the job is a mystery. Democracy seems to have been redefined over night.

  70. Indeed Leni....it's just like the Mandy scenario you have power without being elected...

  71. Socialist Labour Party

    There is one thing about Scargill and PR and that is that on that he is consistent. I heard him speak in favour of PR at a May Day rally in Barnsley before the '84 dispute.

    And it is still there in the SLR 'objectives'....

    "The Party's basic aims are set out in clause 4 of its Constitution:

    To organise and maintain a political Party to represent the policies of the Party.

    To co-operate with trade unions and other kindred organisations, in joint political or other action in harmony with the Party Constitution and Standing Orders.

    To abolish Capitalism and replace it with a Socialist system whose institutions represent and are democratically controlled by and accountable to the people as a whole.

    To secure for the people a full return of all wealth generated by the industries and services of our nation on the basis of common/social ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange of each industry and service and to implement the most effective system of administration, control and accountability of each industry and service by the people.

    To establish a voting system based upon Proportional Representation which ensures that democratic, Socialist principles are part of the electoral, representative process at all levels.

    To establish the most equitable distribution of the wealth generated by industries and services, ensuring full employment, a free National Health Service and an education system available to all on demand with adequate provision for all, in particular the elderly and young in our society.

    To establish that occupational pension funds are controlled by employees who contribute and beneficiaries who benefit from them.

    To promote the right to freedom of assembly, movement, speech and association, and to enshrine in law the words and principles of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights and International Labour Organisation Conventions.

    To abolish the unelected, undemocratic House of Lords and introduce a democratically elected Head of State.

    To promote and establish a clean, healthy, safe environment in which the resources of the Earth are used to enhance the well-being of humans and of all forms of life, for today's and future generations, with special attention to eliminating pollution on land, sea and air.

    To establish that women are treated equally with men in all respects, particularly ad far as pay and conditions at work are concerned and top prohibit by law any discrimination against women in any way.

    To establish that Black people and all ethnic groupings are treated equally with other people and to prohibit by law any discrimination against Black or any ethnic groups.

    To establish that no person shall suffer discrimination socially, economically or politically because of a disability, and to prohibit by law discrimination against disabled people.

    To establish that no person shall suffer discrimination socially, economically or politically because of their sexual orientation/preference.

    To promote political, social and economic emancipation of the people as a whole.

    To co-operate with all Socialist organisations with a view to promoting objects, aims and policies of the Party and to take common action with international Socialist organisations in the campaigns to promote a higher standard of social and economic life for people throughout the world.

    To co-operate with Socialist organisations in all countries and other international organisations in the promotion of peace, the establishment and defence of human rights and the improvement of social and economic standards and conditions of work of people in countries throughout the world."

    You can be assured that the Tories and most of the the press will be against PR if Arthur's in favour of it.....

  72. SLR objectives?? SLP! objectives dumb boy deano!

  73. Deano: Please don't slag yourself off!

    A true story to cheer you up:

    Two men, both Academicians almost ninety, were walking along the street in the sunshine. A beautiful young woman crossed their path. One of the Academicians turned to the other and said: "Oh Gyuri, if only we were seventy again!".

  74. Latest from the Guard:

    "But Clegg must be thinking very carefully about his options – the Liberals have a terribly fissiparous history."

    Great new word.


    fissiparous. (you learn something new on UT every day - well some of us do Scherf)

    a. Of organisms: Producing new individuals by fission. b. Of or pertaining to the process of reproduction by fission. Hence fissiparously adv.

    1835-6 TODD Cycl. Anat. I. 145/2 The first of these modes of reproduction is entitled fissiparous. 1872 NICHOLSON Palæont. 94 The polypes produced fissiparously resemble one another in organization. 1887 W. HOOPER in Encycl. Brit. XXII. 464 Organisms which are fissiparous, and when cut in two form two fresh independent organisms.
    transf. 1874 MORLEY Compromise (1886) 70 All error is what physiologists term fissiparous. 1890 Times 21 Nov. 9/2 Scotch Home Rule and, perhaps, half-a-dozen other fissiparous developments of ‘national life’.
    So fissiparation, the process of fissiparous reproduction. fissiparism = prec. fissiparity, the attribute of being fissiparous. fissiparousness = fissiparity (in examples fig.).

    1864 Athenæum No. 1920. 216/1 Fissiparation and gemmation. 1868 E. P. WRIGHT Oc"

    I feel an illness coming on. Imagine what uber creep Mandelson could produce - fissaparoulsy!

  75. I've just been asked to present a lecture on the British Political System/election results at a University here in Sao Paulo.

    At the moment I'm negotiating over how many times I can use the 'C'-word, 'f@cking f@ck-faced f@ckers', and the phrase 'Neo-conservative cock-knockers'!

    Anyone got any other ideas that I may have missed....??

  76. medve - smiling. Teeth a little gritted, but containing the urge to Molotov at least thus far.

    If it goes on much longer I will have to go to a supermarket, lay in extra stocks, and lust after a woman or two. Ah to be a civilised Academician it sounds a fine life.

  77. Gordon Brown has resigned!

  78. Brown - Formal negotiations with Libdems to begin - Gordy to step down, new Lab leader by Party Conference.

    Possibility of another unelected PM?

  79. According to the news - Gordon Brown will be resigning (in due course) and he has called for a leadership election - "in which he will take no part."

    clegg has asked for formal discussions with Labour - looks like tories may be out in the cold after all.


    You'll have some fun with that!!

  80. Ooooh the Toryboys are going to be werry, werry angwy!

  81. James

    Will put my mind to alliterative and internally rhyming political nuance.

  82. Yes I just came in, turned on PM and heard it. Even the Guardian does not have it on their page (they do now). He must have announced it on radio 4 just as I came in. What a coincidence.

    I havve just had a depressing day, anyway.

  83. Right I'm off to lay in extra stocks and do a little lusting.

  84. We might yet get our Vince as chancellor - I wonder if his practice would measure up to his rhetoric.

  85. Sheff

    The game is wide open again. Vince is untested but I doubt if he could be any more of a dister then anyone else.

    We need new faces and new ideas - all will be arisk of course but the stakes are very high.

    Will we all go back to knitting , making our clothes and growing veg ?

    Small time self employment might be a possibility for a few but in general we are facing disaster.

  86. seems obvious that gordon has resigned in order to get the pact with the libs...he finally buckled then.......

    get plenty of tins in deano.....

  87. I've mentioned before my ambivalence to electoral reform actually changing anything in a liblab pact, but BUT just to watch Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Willetts faces as they realise they are not going to be the government...


  88. Rainbow coalition.
    Queens speech thingumy.
    Electoral reform vote.
    Back to the polls.....

    C'mon peeps, do it. Do it...

  89. Duke - me too, but it is going to be very difficult for Labour and the LDs to find the numbers: there aren't enough with the two of them alone. Still, PR should attract many of the smaller parties.

  90. oh and deano and lots of candles...

    leni agree disaster looms........

    maybe they'll do re-runs of "the Good Life"

  91. thauma

    Agree - if they do offer a route to PR then they could get the numbers and as His Grace says - what joy watching the tories squirming in opposition.

    Have a feeling that it won't last long though - they are simply not used to the idea of consensus politics and are very tribal.

  92. whatever happens clegg has lost a lot of credibilty by negotiating with the tories and it will take a lot for him to squirm out of that explaining it all to voters and his party....
    of course that's if he goes with lab...

    he is a tease that cleggy...

  93. As well as redistributing the wealth we may need to focus more discussion on what we actually mean by 'quality of life'.

    I think (given all that new technology of recent years) there should be scope to redistribute (reduce) the working week for many, and to introduce a lot more socially valuable work.

    A lot more people, than imagine it, are capable of making positive social contributions as things like: youth workers/teacher support workers/health supporters/old people supporters etc etc.

    I don't think there is a shortage of things waiting to be done.

    That said it's the transition that's the tough bit - as the saying goes it oft be darkest just before the dawn.

    Perhaps I could be re-deployed to assist ladies to avoid being lusted after in supermarkets. Or to master-mind a new national network of public Acer parks or dog walks.

    Come the revolution there will be work aplenty for all.

    I wish....................

  94. James,

    an antiquated, out of touch system that ceased being the 'Mother of Parliaments' in 1789.

    Dedicated to the protection of property as the fundamental rule of law and bourgeois entitlement.

    Deeply unrepresentative (House of Lords & FPTP) and reactionary, using the British 'traditions' excuse to block any type of reform.

    From the deprivations and suffering of the Industrial Revolution to Men and Women having to make the ultimate sacrifice in the total war of WWI, voting reform historically can only be achieved by superhuman efforts on the part of those who most need it.

    Along with the USA, Britain is the only MEDC that still has FPTP. All other EU partners and OECD democracies have far more advanced democratic systems.

    And the Tories still do not want it.

  95. Don't mean to go off topic from the big headlines, but has anyone seen Pen?

    The other day he said I was a nihilist, or at least influenced by nihilism, but sometimes I feel mainstream society itself is nihilistic, and I am on the fringes, holding the banner of perspective. But, who knows. Really it is just social alienation.

    Whatever, I wonder how the political process will pan out. Hope we get PR.

  96. Brown announces he's stepping down. Pickfords booked at No. 10 for boxing day... : )

  97. 13th Duke

    Funnily enough, that's pretty much, almost word for word, my opening paragraph (except I peppered it with a bit more of the language I used above)...

  98. A fine start to a speech Duke &James

  99. Deano

    the alternative to violent revolution is perhaps an under the radar social revolution - born of more self sufficiency - I don't mean only in the knitting and growing veg sense but thru having the confidence to recognise our own strengths, breaking away from psychological dependency on gvt. doing it for us.

    Violence - even peaceful demos - will certainly be met with police violence and the full power of a fearful establishment.

    fear in an unstable society is not confined to the losers although they are probably the weakest section - certainly are when it comes to violent confrontation.

  100. Nap - pen called in here at around 12:10 today.

  101. Duke. Yes, we are the most undemocratic country in Europe.

    The educated intellectuals, deprived of a proper vote, will vote with their feet and emigrate.

    I see that you have left Britain, was this for any particular reason, and what are your observations on quality of life?

  102. Leni - I have to hope that there is something in what you say.

    More people have to ask themselves, and their family and friends - 'just what the fuck is it that actually matters to us'. 'What do we really need for an enjoyable life' .......etc etc..

    A few 'well we don't really need that (perpetual insecurity for example) thing' along the way wouldn't go amiss either.

    I have heard rumours that it is possible to have things like decent and friendly neighbours without having a 52" all singing and dancing HD TV.( A device which I have been told you can't eat drink or fuck.)

    The problem with too much obsessive 'growth' is that you get so tall the wind blows you over.

  103. Nap

    emigration to Eu is the easiest option - there will be fewrer jobs in many EU countries - the British 'educated intellectual' have no reason to automatically require their services.

    Just walking away - for those who can - is not the answer. We need all people of goodwill who understand the problems we collectively face to stay and find ways to rebuild our society and economy (the real economy in which we all live ).

    Ability is not confined to one section of our society - certainly the 'educated' have in some sense had more opportunities than most but those times have gone.

    We have to start appreciating the real qualities of each other - not judging people on vocabulary or reading lists. As a society we need to re-engage with skilled and able people right across the spectrum - too many have been ignored for too long.

  104. This is all getting interesting again, it may be a bit selfish of me but I wish they would hurry it up a bit, the emotional ups and downs are getting to me.

  105. Nap

    First para should read - * no reason to automatically assume* - that other countries will* require their services.

  106. "..The educated intellectuals, deprived of a proper vote, will vote with their feet and emigrate..."

    Not all of them Nap - some at least will stay and fight till the lights are out.

    Educated intellectuals are lucky - many of things they like are cheap or free (via the BBC or libraries

  107. I think I have said this before but if the educated intellectuals leave the rest of the country to rot then we would be better off without them.

    As far as I can tell almost all of our politicians are extremely well educated and a lot of them would consider themselve intellectual, they haven't done much for the rest of us recently.

  108. erm...

    Probably best if I stipulate now, for the record, that I left the country for a variety of reasons, none of which make me a particularly bad/cowardly/tax-haven seeking person, and that, furthermore, even my mum, in her proudest moments, would struggle to call me an intellectual without laughing....


  109. Why are the media hyping up events today as 'extraordinary' Surely whats been going on is exactly what you'd expect in the circs - lot of horse trading and running about between factions.

    So GB seems to have done the decent thing and put the country's interests before his own - but being a son of the manse with 'values' and a 'moral compass' why is that surprising?

    If only we could have a bit of really serious analysis rather than over excited breathy soundbites.

  110. Napoleon,

    my better half and I moved to Glasgow a couple of years ago. I was moving back after 10+ years.

    It was a number of factors that made us move, Glasgow to me had changed and not in a good way (this is a personal subjective opinion I must add), my wife didn't settle (she was in a very stressful job) and we had the opportunity to move back here, so after humming and hawing we took it.

    It's early days but we've settled in fine. Like anywhere it has its good points and bad points but for us I think it was the right decision.

  111. Sheff,

    Amen to that sister.

    (and if I hear/read one more effing marriage/affair analogy, I'm gonna frickin' scream....)

  112. I see the beeb have dragged out Alistair Campbell as a pundit...heh...heh...heh. Pity its not our Norm.

  113. Could anyone who still has posting rights over at the other place - and who does not feel too soiled by using them - please point out to the massed ranks of the CiFerati that they, in chorus and unison whatever their political allegiances, have been promising for a year or two that New Labour would be utterly obliterated at the election.

    Could mention be made that this did not happen?

    Could it be pointed out that it is now quite possible that New Labour might end up effectively staying in office, however much this may only be due to being propped up by the other also rans?

    Of course, whatever crippled government is cobbled together with bits and pieces of the living dead remains of the parties will not last.

    The LibDems will probably disappear in a few months.

    Gordon Brown is working through the user manual for doors, paying particular attention to the bit about closing it behind you.

    Dave Bloke, of course, if he does not manage to penetrate the inner circle of Cleggie and produce a Quasimodo love-child, will be hounded out by an outraged pack of his own party.

    So, CiF called this election wrongly.

    The Guardian seems to have backed a loser and will have to stand around under the street-light on the corner again soon.

    So, which way will the country jump next time?

    The Waitrose and the Asbo varieties of neo-Nazi bully-boys got 1.5 million votes between them.

    Would the discerning Sir or Madam like to do as the Murdoch press tells them this time and not frighten the markets?

    Thank you.

    That is all.

  114. Jen - I know what you mean! It is a nightmare on the old nerves. And the bleeding Beeb - that poisonous twat nick Robinson - bleating on about unelected people like Campbell being involved - ha ha ha . What about fucking Lord Bountiful pulling Camerons strings. Although of course he is allegedly fuming and is not going to be throwing good money after bad - but who knows.

    Very dignified response from Gord I think.

  115. Interesting piece on local news. A young accountant, worried about not being able to fly from Robin Hood airport because of snow twittered that he'd like to blow the airport sky high.

    Airport staff stumbled across it - called the police, he was arraigned before the court, fined £1000 and banned from the airport for life. Judge found him guilty od sending a 'menacing message'.

    So if I made a call on here for a countrywide uprising against the filthy capitalist machine - a descent upon parliament with intent to burn the building to the ground and a hanging of all politicians along the embankment, do you think I might be in trouble?

  116. Oh and he lost his job as well.

  117. Atomboy - I predicted they would be too and actually thought it would be good for this country in the long term as I believe we needed a 'proper' Labour party. I was going to vote Green - determined to do so - but at the end of the day I listened to Clegg and realised he was putting forward doing a deal with the Tories even before the election.

    At that point I studied my constituency and realised it was neck and neck between the lib dem and Labour - so betraying my principles, betraying a party I am a bloody member of - I put on a big nose peg and voted Labour.

    I also wrote to the Lib Dem Mp telling him why he would not get my vote due to Cleggs remarks. Labour won by a tiny amount here. I might hate New Labour but I dread and fear the Tories. Absolute bastards.

    Apparentley though some Labour ministers don't want to go for this they want to let the Tories and nick clegg go for it and deal with the fall out as it happens.

    Defo get tins (I have some) wine and other nice drinky poos (in case some sort of hyperinflation means you need a wheelbarrow to buy it) and some candles!

  118. Atomboy

    I tihnk what we saw was fear of Tories combined with a very real understanding of FPTP's limitations. Had this election been done under PR, all else remaining equal, i suspect Libs would be in second place, Labour on around 20% of vote.

    The imminent Tory government has caused massive alarm, if you read the comments all over CIF you can see it everywhere - hatred of new Labour gave way to the reality of a Tory government, by far the greater of two evils.

  119. Gandolfo

    whatever happens clegg has lost a lot of credibilty by negotiating with the tories and it will take a lot for him to squirm out of that explaining it all to voters and his party....

    He couldn't do otherwise, as someone who has campaigned on the basis that seats should be allocated proportionally; the Tories won the greatest share of the popular vote. He would have been leaving himself wide open to (justified) allegations of hypocrisy.

    He's cleverly pretended to take the Tory non-offers seriously and can now say that they were unable to agree on forming a government, leaving the LDs free to ally themselves with the other parties.

    If that coalition can stay together long enough to bring in PR, then we can have another election. Or - who knows? - maybe they will actually be able to govern effectively. I doubt it though.

  120. Evening all.

    Back on-line again after (more) IT problems over past few days.

  121. PCC and Jay

    Not sure I have time to properly respond, as I was just flinging in a gobbet of bile - well, phlegm, really. Also having problems with Blogger/Blogspot login and posting.

    Yes, we will tend to respond and act through fear, hatred, pragmatism and some cockamamie notion that politicians are actually going to help us realise our desires and ambitions.

    The problem would seem to be that all the parties are basically selling a limited number of fears and wishes using similar techniques to a population which has become homogenised and taught to set their sights on a limited number of choices to give their lives meaning.

    When the New Tories and New Labour are equally hated by similar numbers and they can only change their tune to a limited degree, it becomes a bit like shall we buy Heinz beans or Crosse and Blackwell this week?

    When George Bush the Lesser was not sure whether the hanging chads would fall in his favour or not, Jon Stewart said: "Aw, but Pa, you said I could!"

    Dave Bloke must be feeling much the same.

    "Uncle Rupert, it was my turn!

  122. ""Uncle Rupert, it was my turn!"

    Dave wasnt tight-fisted either. He offered not only a large assault on the BBC but also the culling of OFCOM. Pretty generous terms.

  123. Ch4 reporting that Osbourne offering Clegg referendum on AV.

  124. It's like a weird auction Deano, Clegg should hold out for a set of golf clubs (and the chance to be Prime Minister).

    I think Lab and the Tories are that desperate he might get a go.

  125. Nice one Jenn - golf clubs and two books of green shield stamps...

  126. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gkHwU4DRA8

    this is absolute gold dust, that partisan Murdoch twat Boulton completely losing his rag and making an absolute cock of himself on live tv. Watch the whole thing, it kicks off near the end. Brilliant.

  127. Jay

    True enough.

    Which one will be fully commercialised first - the BBC or the NHS?

    Perhaps governments could just decide that we are, in fact, simply slaves and parade us in chains to be snapped up by our new owners.

    The boss of Nestle would order a few thousand in order to show Europeans that slave labour is not something which only happens in China and the Far East.

  128. And now a word from our UT sponsors

    …Camera focuses on stately home panning in through the window to reveal George Osborne lying on his back, arms and legs flailing screaming “It’th not fair! It’th not fair!” whilst his Mum looks on saying “calm down Georgie dear, calm down…”

    …Cut to Police interview room with Andy Coulson crying under interrogation by two Gene Hunt types into the NOTW hacking claims……

    ...Cuts to Eric Pickles tied to an empty chair in a Dr No style room, sweating ,whilst Lord Aschroft calmly states over an intercom “You have failed me for last time Pickles…”

    …Fades to a dungeon with David Cameron being whipped bare arsed by a gimp masked torturer screaming “I did my best!, I did my best!” whilst a head to toe in black leather Rupert Murdoch looks on…


    Carlsberg don’t do hubristic political parties who think they have the divine right to rule…but if they did…

  129. Seriously - check this out. Posted on Cif - its brilliant. Adam Boulton looks like an absolute child - having a tantrum and Campbell is so calm! Brilliant.

  130. Woops try again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4N2JnIT-3g

  131. "Carlsberg don’t do hubristic political parties who think they have the divine right to rule…but if they did…"


  132. Youtube comment:

    "Boulton you kneel at the sweat rinsed arse of Rupert fucking Murdoch and lap it up you utter utter cunt."

    Makes CIF look terribly tame.

  133. "Which one will be fully commercialised first - the BBC or the NHS?"

    NHS, definitely. Not in terms of free at point of use, but it will be entirely private run. Huge chunks of it already are.

  134. Jay, Princess

    I didn't know who Boulton was before the debate, and I was wondering why Christopher Biggins had been summoned to do a political broadcast.

    After seeing that pantomime of shite, maybe Biggins would have been a better choice afterall....

  135. jay/ princess made me larf

    campbell classic good on him.....

  136. Lab offer a 'whipped' through immediate Act on AV followed by referendum on PR.

  137. J/PCC great stuff team UT.

  138. "Lab offer a 'whipped' through immediate Act on AV followed by referendum on PR."

    Not a bad offer at all. Av, though not proportional, would be very interesting as an indicator of the distortions of FPTP. BY looking at first preference it would show much more clearly what a proper PR vote would look like and would show up the amount of votes Lab and Tory get that they dont deserve.

  139. He is a ringer for Biggins (with a bun in his bum) James

  140. As I understand it - AV claimed/assumed would hurt Tories, a bit, without significantly helping Libs.

    Shrewd move but at least a step which could stimulate real public attention and confidence for a serious referendum.

  141. Welcome 4 visitors from Denmark.

  142. What is interesting in this election is the reactions I've heard from people who aren't particularly politically engaged, ie most people (who don't have the same sad obsessions as some of us).

    Immigration is probably still the number one concern, but the unfairness of the vote allocation is getting much discussion down the pub. I think a PR referendum would pass, in these parts anyway.

  143. sheffpixie:

    There's a poster called tinlaurelandhardy I have managed to annoy. I think its bitey one of his many disguises. Anyone know?

    Your desire to embrace censorship will doubtless cause tinlaurelledandhardy some future grief as the accusation, usually from BeautifulBurnout, gets the poster banned. Maybe you'll have the decency to go back to the thread and apologise.

    My most recent incarnation isn't tinlaurelledandhardy. And when you say "If my memory serves me right, bitey liked to trawl through other peoples old posts and quote them out of context in a derogatory manner", I cannot recall anything you've ever written sheffpixie, that's worth quoting in any way, derogatory or otherwise.

    And if you want a lesson in how to win an argument on CiF I suggest you go and look at my contribution to this thread, posting as jiasa. (now also banned courtesy of MrsB).

    this thread

  144. 7 Danish visitors now! I reckon Scherfig is fucking with us. ;-)

  145. If this whole debacle is not enough to change the electoral system (esp since the Lib Dems are 'kingmakers'), to some form of PR, than I honestly cannot see what would be.

    *rummaging in cupboard for pitchfork polish afterall....

  146. Fuck off Bitey. The only person who's got you banned is yourself.

  147. My God Scherf - you going to turn up mob handed?

  148. Thaum
    yes I see your point but still it appears to be quite hypocritical to side with the cons given their political differences

    a senior lib dem quoted in the grauniad blog said

    "The dilemma for the Liberal Democrats is that it would be easier arithmetically to do a deal with the Conservatives, but it would be easier politically to deal with Labour ... I think the mood of the party is in favour of a deal with Labour."

  149. Words to the effect - "If the revolution wasn't to include dance then count her out". A pixie original and stimulating too I thought.

    I like dance fans.

  150. deano

    Well remembered and ditto.

  151. Amazing that an oft alleged defining characteristic in the British character is the sense of fair play................

    .....but what's good enough to make men out of boys at Eton is not to be suitable for the voting system of the masses.

    Elitism at it's most arrogant. I hate the bastard public school boys....

    They start out being buggered as little ones and finish up assaulting Matrons when they give em cough medicine. There is no hope for their redemption.

  152. Hi Chin - good to read you've sorted the IT.


  153. Gandolfo - indeed, but in fact they haven't (yet) sided with the Conservatives. While that would give a clear ruling majority, and one might hope (no doubt vainly) that the LDs would temper the Tories' vilest excesses, the Tories are smug and are not offering anything particularly attractive to the LDs, such as PR.

    So no deal, and a short-lived Rainbow Coalition looks like the probable outcome.

  154. Tgaum it all seems a bit up in the air Hague has offered the prospectof a referedum on AV, labour have, or are apparently going to offer the Lib Dems a bill on bringing in the AV electoral system and a referendum on PR

    they're wheeling and dealing...apparently Cameron has told Clegg that there is a deadline: 22.00 tonight. No doubt if Libdems decline the offer from the tories the tories will hope that a Lib-Lab coalition will fail by the autumn and there will be another election with them getting a majority....either way it all looks a bit fuckety puckedy....

  155. sorry misread no deadline to the tory offer....

  156. If Clegg plumps for the Tories and they have a referendum on AV won't they effectively be campainging against each other?

    That wouldn't do much for a harmonious working relationship.

  157. A quick bill on AV followed by a referendum on PR......followed by:

    Very limited exclusive equal public funding for all political parties (refundable to public purse for those not securing 5% of the vote).

    TV debates/slots for all carried by BBC other Stations free of charge if they wish.

    No advertising.

    Policy leaflets with candidate statements only ( free delivery by Post Office (OHMS) to all houses).

    Voting optional but 5% discount on Council Tax for registering and voting from a taxable address.

    Non-doms - castrated by law and interned on St Kilda for duration.

    Candidates not securing 5% of vote, a week in the stocks.

    Other ideas to make for fair elections - still under review.

  158. Dear old bitey

    What i asked was

    You're not bitey by any chance are you? If my memory serves me right, bitey liked to trawl through other peoples old posts and quote them out of context in a derogatory manner.

    I simply asked a question. The fact is that tinlaurelandhardy sounded a lot like you - you know that pompous, hectoring tone you do so well. Rather like your comment above.

  159. sheff

    Ah yes, but feel the power of being attributed with power over CiF in the Great Banning Hypothesis.

    Thing is, the only Cif we have any power over is of the bathroom cleaner variety.

  160. MsC

    I know - if only!! What a tyrant I could be. I'd be rather good at it don't you think?

  161. Anyone see this on Jools ?



  162. sheff

    Naw, you'd let 'em off if they put up a good argument! Besides, part of the pleasure of CiFing is sparring with people, not silencing them.

    Actually, in MAMs case, silencing might be preferable.

  163. Anyone else have a funny grid line(s) by or across the comment box?

  164. Nope, just you MsChin...

    You must 'been bad.

  165. Very bad, BW. Very bad indeed, I hope!

    Do you think we'll wake up in the shower soon, a la Dallas, with the election / hung parliament / haggling over deals stuff just a dream?

  166. I posted on WADDYA today, for the first time in ages. Crikey hell, it has become bitching central. Half of it today seemed to be Melissa trolling Brussels for her bourgeois sensibilites and making barely concealed ad homiems.

  167. Nap

    Re: WADDYA - there may be history of which you are unaware. Just saying, like.

  168. And so to bed. Night all.

  169. This comment has been removed by the author.

  170. Brusslesexpat makes me imagine Ermintrude from the Magic Roundabout hovering around in the air above the set of Battleship Potempkin, telling everyone to calm down.

  171. And it's good night from me too.

    Fingers crossed there's some ghosts of politics past/present/future visiting a few politicians tonight.....

  172. There is nothing like agreement - on anything - between all the talking heads being wheeled out.

    a lot of cross and very bitter Tories, hesitants Labs and waiting and seeing Libs.

    Nobody is talking about the coming economic disaster and most certainly nobody has mentioned socialism or concern for the already poor and the about to become unemployed.

    None of the conversations are framed within the idea of social justice - it's all about political expediency and advantage.

    Many rats behind the arras.

  173. @ElementaryWatson:

    The average American doesn't know who Gore Vidal is. I can't actually say that educated Americans do, because I'd be willing to bet the farm that I'm the only staff member in our elementary/middle school building who has ever heard of him. FFS, the 8th grade (students 13-14 yrs old) Reading teacher had never heard of John Dos Passos. This is a woman who's only a few credits shy of a MS in Education. The 8th grade History teacher once asked students why the 'Founding Fathers' hadn't chosen communism as a form of government back in 1776.

    Honestly, you cannot overestimate the ignorance of the average American.


    MavisCoulter has a history of which Nap may be unaware. MelissaDarley just finds Bru pompous and insufferable, like most of the rest of us.

  174. Anyway, I too will go to bed. Cliques indeed. I suppose it is alright on here, becuase it is anytihng, anyone here knows what to expect, they can talk about any subject. It is independant of cif as well, and Montana calls the shots

    If I were the Cif editor I would look into shutting down Waddya.
    The trouble is, that when sometihng serious or important, a poster goes to WADDYA, expecting a direct line to the Guardian high command. You will often see it, one of the 'non clique' posters posts about sometihng very important, meanwhile the others are talking about what wine they are having for the evening. But who am I to make their decisions for them.

  175. This emphasis on stable gvt. reminds me that absolute monarchies tended to be be stable - any flighty or about to upset the regal apple cart types being speedily and bloodily dispatched.

  176. Ooh, 'history', 'unaware', This sounds like the UT freemasons. What's the secret initiation ceremony? The wise order of the Jaffa cake......

  177. Montana: I once travelled half way across Europe by train in the company of a young American man, who was not stupid. It turned out that he had never heard of William Shakespeare. There may be something in what you say ...

  178. The next time our journalists kick up a fuss about a "Banana Republic" in South America or Africa or Asia, rigging their voting system and showing newsreels of people queueing to vote and being turned away at the ballot box. Those regimes can quite legitimately say "shove your "democracy" up your arse.
    Our "democracy" is a farce and this general election has shown it up for the the sham it really is.
    When the Berlin Wall came down the capitalists assumed they had won the ideological battle.
    Obviously that is not the case.....

  179. @Napoleon:

    No Masons, no initiation. Mavis used to be a regular here under a different name. Bru was a regular here, too. Bru made some baseless and rather insulting accusations. When Mavis, quite rightly, asked for an apology, Bru sniffed that she owed no apology because she had endured a months-long campaign of personal abuse here. Strangely, only she and Kiz seem to remember this campaign of personal abuse. Personally, I think Bru deserves every bit of the shit she gets from Mavis now (and anyone else, for that matter).


    Our education standards were never all that high, as far as what we expected kids to read/be familiar with, but a combination of dumbing down the curricula and PC-ifying it (Toni Morrison is more important than Shakespeare, doncha know?) has created at least a couple of generations now of ill-read and incurious slugs.

    Relative to most of my compatriots, I am fairly well-read. Most of you would be appalled by the things I've never read. And I have a BA in English, with an emphasis in Medieval & Renaissance lit!

  180. Once we all realize we don't know fuck all, there maybe a collective consensus on our insanity!

  181. Hi Chekhov

    Just called by to say night night.

    ignorance and insanity are not the same thing but insanity can stem from thinking you know it all when in fact you know nowt thus creating a completely false picture of reality.

    Night x

  182. mmnnn...being "well read"....at lot of "kudos" attached to that in history. "Nap" I wish more people were as "deep" as you in your thoughts and I always enjoy your posts.

  183. Leni: I hope I get your gist. otherwise I'm totally fucked!

  184. Montana: I should have kept quiet, because i must admit i'll have to off and google Toni Morrison ;-)

  185. More shame on me: we actually have the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn with her introduction in the house.

  186. No reason why you should have heard of her, Medve. You've never studied English at an American university.