28 May 2010


The Spanish Armada began leaving Lisbon for the English Channel in 1588.  Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Acts in 1830, authorising the forced removal of the Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Muskogee and Seminole) from the southeastern United States into what is now Oklahoma.  Greek women gained the right to vote in 1952.  Nepal became a republic in 2008.

Born today:  Louis Agassiz (1807-1873), Carl Larsson (1853-1919), Ian Fleming (1908-1964), Thora Hird (1911-2003), Prince Buster (1938), Gladys Knight (1944), John Fogerty (1945), Roland Gift (1962), Kylie Minogue (1968) and Charles N'Zogbia (1986).

It is Flag Day in the Philippines.


  1. Prince Buster's birthday ?
    As if I needed an excuse to be naughty tonight...

  2. Morning all.

    Seem to have landed job - although with the boss' baby having arrived three weeks early, she's not around to finalise the paperwork. But am playing with the system to prep a demo for the woman who trained me yesterday, which if successful means I get let loose on the US pending clients list. Huzzah. Now all I need to do is work out how to get the system to replcate source data as a starting point...

  3. Congrats Pip!

    Scherf if you're about i'll try and get back to you later this morning on some of last nights points, bit snowed under at min.

  4. We got 5 people online from Netherlands? Whats Duke been playing at?

  5. Montana;

    You funk rock chick you! loved Heard it through the Grapevine ;)

    Many, many congrats Philippa!!!!! great schnews ;)

    mornin' all ;)

  6. Great news Phillipa! Good luck with the new job.

    Had a horrible bout of insomnia last night and am now feeling murderous and wiped out so taking a day off work. I blame scherf for choosing last thing at night to lob a grenade in and ruin my sleep patterns.

    If/when you read this scherf, I'm in an incredibly bad mood and am taking it out on you - which I'm sure you're man enough to either ignore or laugh off. I'd do a smiley emoticon but can't be arsed.

    Moral of story for me - don't tune into the UT after 9pm in the evening as it seems to be the time of day when things kick off.

  7. Good news, Philippa!

    *tiptoes past Sheff*

  8. sheff, very sorry about that :o( but that's the thing about grenades - you never know when someone will lob one, and if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, well...innocent bystanders get hurt.

    jay, good to hear from you - speakyerbranes, mate. I'll catch up on it later hopefully.

    Here's an appropriate song for the road from one of my fave albums (Trenchtown Mix Up) chatty chatty mouth

  9. That's great news PB I'm pleased for you.

  10. ¡Enhorabuena Phillipa!

    The rest of you are total fucking bastards;0)

  11. Speaking of grenades scherf, if I had a few to hand right now I can think of a few directions I'd gleefully lob them in. Not anyone on this thread I hasten to add.

    For example I see that D Millipede is now attacking 'immoral' city excesses. He goes on to say

    "the explosion of pay inequality over the last three decades, and the continuing scandal of the gender pay gap, is an ethical as well as an economic issue. Mega pay awards and bonuses, linked to activity rather than success, violate basic principles of merit and justice. We need to find ways to re-establish moral norms"

    FFS - what is it with these people? He had the chance, he spectacularly dropped the ball. First grenade for him.

    Will now listen to your tune - hope it cheers me up

  12. The rest of you are total fucking bastards;0)

    I knew that martillo!

  13. Another spat last night! Can I make myself clear I hate rows to me a row is a pointless spat which involves swearing and name calling and they end up with people in entrenched positions.

    I try to stay out and sorry I know its not macho but I'm a wimp and proud of it!

    However a good political discussion where ideas are exchanged and minds do some actual meeting - thats different. Even when complete agreement doesn't happen a new perspective is gained.

    I'd like more of the latter and a lot less of the former - please :)

  14. Sheff - trouble with not tuning in after 9pm is that that is when most of the good tunes are posted :(

  15. Given that I always find something new on UT everyday I also hope that others will too.

    So for my friend Scherf and other younger men with little understanding of cock reaming here is the dreadful truth:

    They call it a TURP

    They may well call it a Turp, I call it a fucking pig or a cock ream.

    Probability is Scherf your time is coming our kid - but I don't hold grudges, may your water pass easily.

    It could be that these outbreaks of grenade lobbing by the middle aged men have a medical cause at the root - acute/discomforting piss retention.

    It might be psychological they could be having difficulty getting their minds around the possibility of having one day to live with retrograde ejaculation.

    Shudder the thought. Ain't life a pig. Still nothing that a cock ream may or may not sort.

  16. No need to get personal, Thauma: I was just just expressing my political opinion...

    Actually, whoever came up with the expression "the personal is the political" has a lot to answer for annetan. For many that seems to mean that disagreement on politics implies the worthlessness of the person disagreed with.

  17. Hia Scherf, good to see you back in town,

    Ok, regarding Nap first. Firstly all the people involved were people i have a lot of time for, so its neither a personal attack on them nor a claim to any moral high ground, i just think it got out of hand and i dont think it was right, i feel bad for him.

    We can debate and row with each other, and then we can take it one stage further and abuse each other too - and Nap got some pretty stiff abuse.

    Was he talking nonsense? Quite a bit yes, but the wider debate about responsibility is an interesting one and responsibility should absolutely not be a dirty word that only Tories get to use.

    Its an interesting debate and, though i know he can be difficult at times, i think it could have been an interesting conversation. And i dont see what anyone achieves by abusing him (disagreeing and rowing is completely different, thats what we should be doing).

    We like to say at the UT that all views are welcome, from across the spectrum, that we like debate and challenging ideas - i dont see how we can maintain that if people who stray from the group line are peppered with abuse.

    And that will make the UT dull - because all we'll have left is people of broadly similar views on things, so there wont be much debate, disagreement etc.

    Pikey and PeterBracken are two of the posters i enjoy rowing with most yet we never resort to abusing each other, and i know the same is true for most of us here. If we can debate Pikey and PB without abuse, why cant we manage that for an unemployed kid?

    Is his personal circumstance relevant - i understand people's point, personal issues should not be relevant, if you cant stand the heat etc... But i dont agree, we regulalrly make allowances for people's personal circumstance and past experiences, both on CIf and here.

    And just to show this is true, look at the row which came after Nap - BB and Montana, a big part of that row is the relevance of personal experience and how you should react to people's experiences. If BB had said to Montana "if you cant take the heat..." etc, well, im sure we'd all agree that would be completely unacceptable.

    He's 21, unemployed, in a new city by himself - most posters here are much, much older than Nap and i think it could have been handled very differently.

    As an example, few weeks ago he said something quite rude to BW (unintentionally) and that time BW very clearly made allowances and gave him a fatherly finger wagging rather than the savaging that one of us would rightly get if we made similar comments to BW (or anyone else).

    We can talk about principles and theory all day long, but empirically its a fact that many posters leave the UT after getting abused. And the less people you have the harder it is to find disagreement and good grounds for debate, rather than just agreeing with each other.

    We've had this debate so many times on UT now i am boring myself, but if the UT is a no holds barred battle royale, people will just got o CiF - there's more idiots, more articles, and more nonsense to row with.

    The UT has to offer something else, and for me that is the chance to debate and disagree in a reasoned environment without trolls and morons getting in the way.

    Anyways, good to see you back.

  18. I know Anne - especially Bitterweed who seems to be able to go on DJing for most of the night, then be bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. Infuriating! That one of scherf's this morning has lifted the gloom a bit though.

  19. Well done PB and Good luck!

  20. Martillo's back too, hows it going? Like a UT reunion today...

  21. BTW Anne - I emailed you about the 5th. Did you get it?

  22. Scherf - I hope you've digested the finer points of a transurethral resection of the prostate.

    Problem is if the bastard surgeon's been on the pop the night before you finish up with a leaking or backward firing cock and that as I understand is no fun.

    Of course that is no excuse for making ladies feel uncomfortable with unwanted expressions of affection.

    So a note for any woman here at UT who may have been offended by my appreciation of most things female. I hope you will understand that my intention was no more than to signal appreciation of women, not lust or anything unsavoury.

    If I offended any of you please to accept my apology.

    Similarly any men of China who may have been offended by being referred to as a Chinaman I'm sorry, but may I point out that you are at liberty to call me a Yorkshireman any time you like our kid.

  23. Fine thanks, Jay, you? I might have a nostalgic look through the first few threads later. I agree with what you said about young Nap. Hope he returns some day.

  24. Hey All, Congrats to PB! Are you staying in france, or does the job mean a move? Gonna read yesterday...

    Back in a bit.. ; )

  25. Martillo, re the personal and the political: agree with you mostly, except if I find out that someone is, for example, a BNP supporter then the political becomes personal in my eyes.

    Sheff - Milliband is beyond contempt (ha! personal attack.) (Politicians don't count.) "I and my merrie band of men caused all these problems but trust me: I am the one to fix them."

  26. Always good to see you martillo - when I see the flag of Spain I usually assume it's you.

  27. Yeah not bad Martillo, was in Spain last week actually, they do love their little dogs over there dont they, virtually everyone i saw had a litle Yorkie in tow... Still living the high life in the sun? You're not missing much, other than an odious Tory government and sub-humans like Gove sharpening their knives...

  28. And that will make the UT dull - because all we'll have left is people of broadly similar views on things, so there wont be much debate, disagreement etc.

    Agree Jay. Give me a variety any day (excluding trolls). I wasn't happy with the Nap bashing but in fairness he wasn't good at listening to responses and then engaging with them which made it frustrating. But I'd still like to have given him a bit more room.

    On this personal is political thing - isn't everything political? Once you have more than one person in a room you get politics (in its broadest sense) don't you?

  29. Shrimp:

    Excellent comments on the Gove education thread ;)

  30. Sheff,

    I agree Nap wasnt blameless by any stretch, it wasnt a one way thing.

  31. Sheff - thanks don't often check that addy!

    Have replied.

  32. Sheff - difficult to define trolls satisfactorily.

    What was yesterdays close cousin can appear as today's disruptive troll to newer or uncertain members of the family.

    If one of the characteristics of trolling is disruptiveness then Hank and Scherf as well as bitey might be in the frame from time to time.

    And equally they might argue mind numbing ramblings a la deano are trolling of the most abusive kind.

  33. Depends what you mean by 'supporter', thauma. I've spoken to a couple of people (when in Britain) who've said the BNP is the only party 'that thinks about them'. Since I partly understand how they came to feel that way, I argue with them, rather than calling them ignorant scum.

    It probably is me Deano. I look to be a non-combatant observer from time to time.

    Where in Spain, Jay? 'Jorsais' are fairly popular. Nasty little beasts, I generally find, hardly deserving of the noble title 'dog'.

  34. Fair points everybobody, but I'm not up for a group hug here.

    On the Nap thing I'm still disappointed that people say he shouldn't have been 'bashed', or 'he's only a young guy'. The scattergun insults that he was constantly dishing out to 'chavs' and the 'working class' and 'smokers' and job centre staff etc etc etc was extremely offensive to me. He's not so young that he can't set up his own blog and pontificate about what's wrong about the world - immigrants and the NHS anybody? Black Africans and homophobia? And the people he was stereotypoing here in his very pretentious, narcissistic, arrogant way are our friends and neighbours, they are you and me. I'll say it again - he was a fucking idiot, and had absolutely nothing to offer. And now he's gone - he wasn't chased away. He disappeared because he didn't want to face up to the truth about his own inadequacy when his bizarre ideas were challenged intellectually. He wants to be a Russiian peasant working on a barge on the Volga. 'working class intellectual' my arse - he was a dick. And it's pretty hypocritical of people here to castigate the few posters who saw him for what he was and had the guts to say so to his face.

    And deano, don't try to fucking patronise me. You are a parody of a parody. Fuck off.

  35. Just outside Alicante, Martillo, fairly quiet little bay type place, beach, little dogs running around, met two 8 week old pups to play with, very relaxing...

  36. JayR:

    Really important post there.

    "The UT has to offer something else, and for me that is the chance to debate and disagree in a reasoned environment without trolls and morons getting in the way"

    I thought Nap was talking through his arse a bit, but, even though I'm no stranger to strident argy-bargy, I'm surprised how shirty things can get down the UT way .... Considering I've got a big gob that gets out of control, it makes me a bit uncomfortable at times.

    Combative I like (where are Pikey and Bracken - lemme at 'em!) still, I agree, a bland site with folk in broad agreement will mean less interest.


    OK I really have to get on with stuff... I'm prevaricating about my list of things to do!

    PS Martillo

    "The rest of you are total fucking bastards;0)"


  37. Me, try to patronise you Scherf?

    Enjoy your day my friend.

  38. Im about to head off as only doing a half day Scherf - i just disagree that being 21 doesnt call for any sort of allowances to be made, and he didnt come across as a malicious person - if he had been that would be different. And he has actually lived on estates, he wasnt just regurgitating something he'd read from Littlejohn.

    Anyways, nice to see everyone here today, im heading off to the bastard dentist...

  39. And he has actually lived on estates

    Check your facts, jay. He moved to Glasgow a few weeks ago, and now he's an expert on 'chavs'. Have a nice afternoon :o)

  40. This comment has been removed by the author.

  41. Anne

    Got it! Have responded with some info you might want.


    I think there's a difference between people who voted for the BNP out of a sense of desperation and as a protest against what they perceived to be the neglect of their interests and those who are, heart and what passes for a soul, signed up to bnp values. The former is forgivable, the latter is not imo.

    Fortunately the election has effectively wiped them out and I gather Griffin is stepping down having failed so spectacularly. There'll no doubt be internecine strife in the party now - with luck it'll finish them.

    If they have half a brain cell between them they can't help have noticed that there are very few people who will give them the time of day when the chips are down.

  42. "....You are a parody of a parody....."

    I'll take that as a compliment Scherf I'm away with me dogs (and copy of Frank Harris under me arm) for a walk.


  43. Scherf

    I may be wrong as i have a shocking memory, but did he not say he had spent some of his youth actually on an estate, and had once been attacked by "chavs" for picking blueberries? I have no idea where he lives now, i wasnt under the impression he *currently* lives on an estate. Not thats hugely relevant, admittedly...

    Im still loitering a bit longer, putting off the visit to the chair of death.

    HI LaRit - he definitely talked some nonsense, yep, no two ways about it, but everyone talks nonsense when they're 21. Anyone know where PB has been lately?

  44. I think that I read somewhere that young Nap had a connection with council estates.

    Might have been in Yorks or London I don't remember where.

  45. PhilB?? has been back in UK for a bit and then entertaining friends/family back in France so not as active as usual.

    Right boots laced so away.

  46. Scherfig:

    You can tell me to fuck off if you want and I don't want to reply in a 'let's have a workshop situation' a la Kevin Turvey mimicking Vanessa Redgrave.

    I grew up in a very volatile and political household, both my parents were fiercely working class, my Mother was a mature Sociology student, a burgeoning feminist and my Dad was a Union man, obsessed with music, frustrated musician, craftsman and instrument maker stuck in the Print trade, we had books everywhere etc.etc. and the biggest insult slung around up our house was to myself and my sisters.... "you're not working class, you're MIDDLE CLASS" As a label, it still makes me uncomfortable, as it was synonymous with the 'successful mediocrity' my parents both loathed.

    You could call me that, but I don't identify with the aspirational wannbees, the yummy-mummy brigade and the like, the gulf between their values and mine is enormous, but not so great as it is between me and the kids in my local area. As a result my identity was thrown into confusion and I've always gone out of my way to be (as much as possible) a person to all people and as a result, have placed an incredible strain on myself, but I can be all things to all people, or a complete fucking angry, unpredictable arsehole.

    I'm not making excuses for NapK and for all I know, he could really be an unreconstructed racist bigot at the end of the day, but the use of offensive words and terminology and romanticism about who he is etc. sounds like someone who doesn't know his arse from his elbow, but someone who is trying to negotiate his way by engaging with people on here he (appears to admire) and is trying to fit in somewhere.

    If he is 'just a twat' at the end of the day, then the truth will out, but to be honest maybe he needed an out for the time being 'cos he's out of his depth?

  47. heh...heh...I do love angsty celebs! The blessed Marina tells us this morning that Jeremy irons is to make a film in the Michael Moore mode (but not as silly), about sustainability and waste disposal.

    Being the proud owner of six houses and a (pink) castle he goes on to opine:

    People must drop their standards of living, so the wealth can be shared about. There's a long way to go"

    Indeed there is Jeremy. I think a pink castle would a great venue for UT meet ups. Shall we ask him to share it with us? Or perhaps a holiday home for some of Naps chavs?

  48. Jay:

    I talked a great deal of nonsense until I was about 35!

    Re the Chair of death.... Last few years have been terrible for me with teeth, appalling dentists fucking things up. Can safely say that I've got a brilliant one now, she's given me my teeth back if you get what I mean.

    My sympathies though....

    Not seen hide nor hair of MrPikeBish.... he's no longer on CiF, unless posting under a different moniker (can't spell pseudonym... oh, I can!) ;)

  49. "You are a parody of a parody. Fuck off."

    Is that another example of having the guts to tell somebody what they are to their 'face', Scherfig? Sounds plain nasty to me. Have a nice day.

    Sheff - I hope I made the same distinction clear. To be honest, I've never consciously come into contact with the latter type. Except from a distance on a march, that is.

  50. Sheff:

    God, it just makes you laff... like Sting and Trooody having a 'serious discussion about climate change and the planet OK-yah' in their hundred-room uber-mansion/chateau where they'd flown all the Slebs in by private fuucking jet.

    My advice to them all is PISS OFF

  51. Is that another example of having the guts to tell somebody what they are to their 'face', Scherfig?

    Yes, that's exactly what it is. I'm surprised more people don't do it. Why is that? Reserve, politeness, hypocrisy, lack of honesty, the overwhelming need for a quiet life?

    btw, I doubt that I would ever say that to you, martillo, but then you're not deano.

  52. La Rit

    I still talk nonsense and as I descend into my second childhood, I'll probably be talking a lot more!

    Here's another little corker from Marina - a quote from Victoria Beckham talking about her and David B in their early days when they didn't have 'two pennies to rub together'.

    I'd get a night off in Paris...and he'd fly on the cheapest little private plane - propeller, two seater, awful thing." You gotta love'em!

  53. "Reserve, politeness, hypocrisy, lack of honesty, the overwhelming need for a quiet life?"

    No, just recognising the wanker within me and therefore trying not to be too judgemental of others. Not that I always succeed...

    "I doubt that I would ever say that to you, martillo"


  54. @Sheff/others
    "I think there's a difference between people who voted for the BNP out of a sense of desperation and as a protest against what they perceived to be the neglect of their interests and those who are, heart and what passes for a soul, signed up to bnp values. The former is forgivable, the latter is not imo."

    I think I mentioned this before but I have a pal who has all but been kicked out of his circle of 30-60 year old friends - for good - because he openly voted BNP in May 09 - for the former reasons you give above.

    I could never in a million years vote for those scum. He made his choice based on a life long Labour supporter from a pretty poor area , and a fairly abusive upbringing in very working class South Wales, who has grown used to being out of work for several months at a stretch. He did it - he protests - out of protest and sense of abandonment.

    Trouble is, my two closest buddies in that circle are Jewish and West Indian and put up with a lot of crap when they were young.

    He's quite a bit of a pisshead (aren't we all)and had the misjudgement to tell the lads how he'd voted.

    He's in a hole now.

    Just another unnecessary unemployed benefits recipient with repugnant views I'm sure the LibCons will tell us.


  55. Sheff;

    You gotta laff.... it's a world removed from any contact with reality..

    I think I had the mental attitude of a 12 year old for a very long time...now I occaisionally turn into a grown up... ho hum, isn't 70 supposed to be the most content age to be... oh well, only another 27 years of misery to go :)

  56. Congrats on job hunt Phillipa

  57. bitters

    Yes, you did mention it before - but what a terrible price he's paid for that vote he cast. Does he really believe it was worth it? and will he ever be forgiven?

  58. Part I of the longest resignation speech in the history of UT:

    Lovely wind in the barley - always makes for a great walk.

    For the benefit of new cast members to the UT soap and our wider audience (and martillo in his archive/memory lane visit) I thought I would draw attention to a favourite day of light hearted fun from last year here on UT.

    I recall reading the day with pleasure and I hope that those who revisit it will agree that scherf/swifty/jay were on fine form.

    I hope you may also agree that when Scherf takes the plum out his arse he can be very bloody funny. (Sadly if left overlong in situ it has a tendency to ferment and even go sour.)

    Anyway see what you think:

    An amusing day on UT with Scherf et al 21/05/2009

    Been a lot of sourness from the old bulls around here of late and I think that all can learn from looking at the reality of the evidence.

    I don't think the yearned for old days of perpetual quality debate on UT ever existed. False memory is a kind way of describing an uncomfortable truth.

    I must say that looking back I'm truly fucking amazed that it has taken Hank and Scherf over a year before they turned their guns fully in my direction. I'd been expecting it for some time.

    Sadly all the guys fire these days are small spittle like pellets and my skin is rhino thick so I'm not hurt. But it is time to think of my role and contribution here and to move sideways in preparation of a noble exit from the stage. (not immediately today I hasten to add)

    I hope that by my participation I have helped UT develop and not hindered it. I tried to adopt the role vacated when Andy went to Cornwall - that of fairly friendly welcomer. He was always better at it than I was. So if I offended or obstructed the objective I would have a sincere regret.

    Whilst you were in the archive you might care to cast an eye at some of the other days last May. Numbers were variable but on some days they were long silences and anybody looking at this years numbers would have to conclude they were more vital.

    It was as Leni so wisely observed last night into that silent space that the UT we have today grew.

    I for one like it and I will always be a reader here for as long as UT is published. I'm really grateful for the tolerance and affection that many of you have shown me - you are a class group of folks.

    That said I need to participate here less and get on with other things in life.

    I'm not leaving just yet so prepare yourselves, and your scrolling fingers, you've other parts of my resignation speech to come in due course.

    (By the way Pikey was never, during my reading time here, anything more than an occasional visitor.)

  59. Hi Bitterweed. That's a sad story. I hope you'll all be able to 'reclaim' him some day (Yeuk: I think I'm coming over all 'more joy in heaven' in my middle age).

    Meanwhile... I'm trying to get beyond the riff on 'Dirty water. Do you know of any cure for lack of rythym?

  60. Hi All,

    Hope you've all got some of the sunshine I've just been out in!


    I've liked and respected you as a poster on CiF and here since I started on Cif, so I can't understand your problem with deano. He could be described as an old letch, but as far as I can tell he's mostly harmless....

  61. Ane
    Tried again to post respose to your Civil War piece - posts don't go through.


    Post to your piece did get through. Very interesting

    I am reading Robert Altmeyer at the moment.

    Happy days Philippa. x

  62. Sorry - Anne

    Fingers don't want to cooperate today.

  63. Afternoon all


    @Anne-like Leni my response to your U2 piece didn,t
    go through.I don,t know much about that period so
    it was interesting to read.

    @deano-no resignations please!

  64. Yup deano, no resignations....


    When I was 9 or 10 years old I made myself a promise: if any of my friends* ever asked me to choose between them and another friend I'd choose the friend who wasn't doing the asking. Otherwise I'd try and be friends with more or less anyone who wasn't downright horrible, even if they didn't always get on with some of my other friends.

    With one near miss I've managed to keep this promise, and certainly aim to apply that principle here.

    *for the purposes of this "friend" is the broadest possible definition: anyone I interact with through choice, rather than obligation, (but can also include work colleagues etc. if I like them!)

    Ok, all that could really be boiled down to "I'm sitting on the fence if it comes to a bun fight"

    Yours with splinters,


  65. Shef
    Unfortunately he's blotted his copybook on a number of other occasions, by not taking his diabetes meds and then getting blind drunk and very leary, saying stupid shit (and swinging for people, including me a couple of times). He doesn't remember jack shit.

    Thing is he's a lovely guy when he's straight, artist, loves music. But that won't wash with the lads. He's a gonner.

    Cure for lack of ryhthm ? Take a load of pills and go clubbing for a year.

    You'll be checking the groove on a car alarm after that !


  66. Dotterel, what I think of deano shouldn't matter at all. If he wants to stop posting OK. If he wants to continue OK. It makes no difference to me - everyone can post here (apart from bitey apparently). That's the whole point of the place. What anybody says here is up for ddiscussion, and if you don't want any feedback from other posters on what you post, then just don't bother.

    btw, deano, thanks for that trip down memory lane - very amusing. I suppose your point was that we weren't always serious here in the old days. And we certainly weren't. It's just a shame that we don't seem to be funny either these days.

  67. "It's just a shame that we don't seem to be funny either these days"

    Seems some time since you tried to be funny Scherf.

    I don't know my friends, perhaps one day Swifty will tell us why he frequents the UT less often these days.

    Could be he got pissed off with Hank - could be he got pissed off with my manner (I know that on occasions he found me tiresome) could be he got pissed off with both or neither. A case of too much speculation is not good for us. Could be he just needed a breather, a little fresh air so to speak.

    Could be that some of the acts have stayed on the stage too long and they have run out of original things to say or share. You ain't exactly a bundle of laughs these days my Irish friend.

    My point Scherf was simply, time and place. The place will always be what the place will be. Essentially a stage for spontaneous reaction between whoever happens to be here at a particular time. That's all it ever was or, IMHO, can ever be.

    My only disappointment here is that you and Hank
    seem of late not to recognise that reality, and seem to think that certain crashing behaviour patterns can change or improve it. You seem to want be actor invited audience and critic a combined role that is fraught with difficulty my friends and one that most who try fail at.

    As Jay says you can brass people off such that they leave or don't join or stay but what the fuck does that achieve.

    In my book Montana has done everything that could be reasonably expected of a considerate host and yet she still gets carped at by two old bulls with a taste for limelight.

    You have something interesting to say put it up on UT2 - you don't get the reaction you want? It means it ain't that interesting.

    The old bulls can appear like feeble minded blokes who didn't test the wind direction before starting thrashing about and pissing and then complain when they get the piss on the shoes. Not attractive if you know what I mean.

    Dott - no choices will ever be called for!

    btw - nobody but billip to my knowledge was ever asked to go from here and bitey knows that. If he can tolerate being told to piss off when he shows little regard for others or work out what to do to avoid it) then if my understanding is correct he too can enjoy his moment on the UT stage.

    My resignation will never be total for I have a real affection for the University of UT but I do have matters to attend to (in the near future) and will have to fade away and then one day come back with a new and simpler but recognisable moniker.

  68. Afternoon all,




    Re last night.
    I'm guessing you saw something about the 'My house, My life' programme.
    From what I've seen of it, it seems like a pretty ambitious, but worthy attempt at solving the serious housing issues here (sort of puts my own search into perspective, too)!!


    I've got a funny feeling I'm one of the new posters here who has failed to contribute in a way you'd have wished me too.

    I'm open to ideas/suggestions, from anyone, on how to improve my input though...

  69. Following Duke and Jay,s posts yesterday there were
    a few issues i,d be interested in getting feedback from people about.

    Firstly the issue of the minimum wage.Hopefully we
    can all agree that it is set too low.Raising it
    therefore poses a number of questions.For instance can small companies in the private sector afford to raise it.And if not should there be more of an in-work
    top up available from the state paid for by a
    redistribution of wealth through the tax and benefit
    system.Additionally should there be a 'weighting'
    on the minimum wage in high cost regions like London.
    Personally i think there should be.

    Secondly with regard to the issue of training.Britain
    has one of the most under-skilled workforces in the
    developed world.Would it therefore be right for a
    'Training Tax' to be imposed on companies that can
    afford it so the burden of training doesn,t fall
    so heavily on the State and therefore the taxpayer?
    Again my view is that such a tax would be a good

    Thirdly and possibly most contentiously i would
    like to see a means-tested sliding scale of Child
    Benefit so that the richest parents get nothing
    and the poorest parents get the most.HOWEVER i
    would like it to be restricted to two children
    per woman.For environmental reasons i believe
    women should be discouraged from having more
    than two children.And i genuinely believe that it
    is irresponsible to have more than two children
    if you,re on a low income.Child poverty in this
    country is after all disproportionately concentrated in families with three or more children.And if there
    is to be a redistribution of wealth through the
    tax and benefit system is it right that people
    who can,t afford them continue to have large families
    whilst most people stick to only two?

    As i said i,d be interested to hear what other
    people think.Bearing in mind the Left in this
    country has got to reconstruct a 'model' that will
    make it electable.

  70. James

    Just be yourself.You seem fine just as you are!

  71. Hi James

    I would be very interested in an article on the buying value of let's say £100 in various parts of the world.

    Thinking about redistribution - if we donate regularly to Oxfam perhaps - would direct giving to a family achieve more? The extra we pay for fairtrade goods - how much reaches theworkers?

    a lot of it is about ways of life and expectations of course as well as actual living costs. The £65 dole money here would provide what for a poor family in Brazil

  72. It seems clear to me in the last few weeks that what the UT is for is to discuss what the UT is for. Perhaps Montana could put the title at the top The Untrusted: What is it for?.

    After being pointed towards Hank’s tax article (and bloody hell it was well worth the read, really excellent stuff), I had a look at some of the threads, one a month for research sake. I struggled to find the long in depth debates on dialectical materialism, Gramsci’s critique of cultural hegemony or postmodernism as a development of the Frankfurt school, which, if recent posts are anything to go by, I should have expected.

    What I did find was a pleasing, funny, witty and gregarious group of people discussing politics, sport, music and generally shooting the breeze, ie exactly the same as it is today and one of the main reasons why I started posting on here in the first place. To me, unless certain posters just miss those who used to post, there never appears to have been a ‘golden era’ of the UT, it’s always been the same.

    Scherfig, if I’m honest, I’m struggling to understand what you want. From what I read, you don’t think the UT is political enough and then you say that we don’t always have to be serious. FWIW, I like the politics, the debates, the discussion centred around that. If it’s a debate that doesn’t interest me or I don’t know much about I don’t post. There’s no way on an unmoderated, open site that you can dictate what posters post or how the discussion should be formed.

    If you’ve made a good enough point, or brought up a topic for discussion or debate that grabs people, is that not the best way for a site like this to work? We’ve now had the ‘what is the UT for?’ debate now for a couple of months and it’s been completely unresolved, which suggests to me that logging on and moaning about the direction of the UT doesn’t work.

    Why don’t we take another tack? Get the articles on UT2, get the debate going on here about what’s important to you etc etc. All this tedious ‘what is the UT for’ debate is doing is making the place a laughing stock for lurkers who enjoy seeing an online argument for the sake of it. Or maybe that’s what your aim is? I don’t know. All I do know is that this circular argument is doing nothing but taking up people’s time and focusing away from what you believe this place should be for.

  73. Leni,

    Yeah, it would be really interesting.
    At University, I remember writing an essay, and needing some data about Purchasing Power Parity.

    There are some figures on the UN and World Bank websites, but they're a bloody nightmare to negotiate, and are largely 'economic', rather than social, if that makes sense.

    In the end, I found some of the better articles and sources in stuff like the New Internationalist magazine.

    I'll have a gander on my Hard Drive this afternoon to see if I've still got anything of relevance...



    (Have to log out for a little while, but I'll respond to t'other stuff when I get back!)

  74. This comment has been removed by the author.

  75. James

    At the moment we are , naturally enough, concentrating on the Brit economy. However - we live in a global economy and cannot find a solution in isolation.

    Tis my view that if we want fair redistribution and dignity for he poor here we have to formulate a global strategy - it's all a bit piecemeal at the moment so the power of billions of us- the majority - is dissipated to the xtent that we have bwcome powerless.


    Interesting questions - will get back later.

  76. 13thDukeofWybourne
    I have to add that a primary split in mindsets has been between those who got banned, premodded and generally fucked over by CiF and those who didn't; among those who didn't there was another rather daft little coterie of middle class dossers who just, frankly took up too much bandwidth without contributing any critique - ever. My take was always that UT was based on the precept that CiF is corrupt, banal insitution which belittles good journalism and worthwhile debate through defending - by deletion of dissent - embarassingly and insultingly poor articles.

    That's where a lot of the frisson has centred, for me at least.

    Montana initially set the place up to continue discussions that had been curtailed. And she has said as much since, on several occasions.

    Personally I've had a fucking good laugh here for best part of eighteen months. I got bored for a while when it became a bit cosy - where was the anger ?

    The anger is always - as are the gags - still out there.

    So there ye have my hapen'th.

    I'm off out now, so cheers, speak soon.

  77. Christ,

    As if the dumbing down of history wasn’t bad enough, we now have the fateful decisions taken during the Dunkirk evacuations put on real time twitter

    winstonchurchill@10am 10/05/1940

    Hoorah, jst bin made PM! Halifax, get 2 fuk, I won!WTF?
    Krauts hav jst invaded France. Eden, gt Gort on fone now. And a
    lrg brandy

    winstonchurchill@5pm 13/05/1940

    Told HofP I’d give em toil blood tears sweat. Uurgh,
    How disgustin. Whisky and soda Clementine…

    winstonchurchill@2pm 19/05/1940
    Thank fk Reynaud’s sacked Gamelin. As mch use as
    an Italian tanks forward gear. Funny quip that, old Eden
    told me it.

    winstonchurchill@3pm 26/05/1940
    Told Gort 2 gt his @rse in gear and get our boys 2 beach.
    Got imp meetin, must dash..l8rs…

    winstonchurchill@8am 27/05/1940
    LOL @ Reynaud!! Told him we’d fight to end whilst secretly
    Slippn to beach to leave Jonny Frenchman to cover our @rses.


  78. Deano

    I bloody well hope you'll be turning up on the 5th.


    I think one of the worst things that ever happened here was the loss of apprenticeships, most of which have disappeared with the old industries. A revitalisation of industry, with gov support for apprenticeships would be great.

    My father in law was a pattern maker (long gone as a skilled trade) which sustained him until he retired a bit early and took to running pubs. When I met my ex old man he was doing an apprenticeship in tool making.

    I used to do a lot of rock climbing in my youth and at least half the people I met on the hill were doing apprenticeships of one kind or another - the other half were often students. It made for a great mix.
    British rock climbing was largely advanced by blokes working in a variety of trades from the northern cities back in the 50's and 60's. (Joe Brown, Don Whillans et al). Looking back life was tough in many ways but also much more fluid and free, even though we were all skint. You could still hitch to the Peak or North Wales for the weekend - climb, get pissed and dance for very little. I used to hitch everywhere, often by myself - couldn't do it these days.

    I know it wasn't nearly as rosy as I've made it sound but I sometimes think we have lost a lot and seem to have gained little of real value, except inside lavs and fancy bog paper.

  79. Back, survived.

    I remember that day, Deano, just had a read through - funny thread. This is what happens when the UT is left to the men for a day, hours of innane banter about drugging and assaulting sheep...

    No need to leave old boy, its an open blog, plenty of room for everyone. If people dont find each others posts interesting they can ignore each other.

    I was youtube'ing last night (or whatever ugly neologism is in vogue) and came across the most amusing 'phone in' with George Galloway and some bloke from Texas - brutal and very funny, well worth a listen, particularly the ending when the Texan suggests everyone is just jealous of US power.


  80. Bitterweed:

    Cure for lack of ryhthm ? Take a load of pills and go clubbing for a year.

    You'll be checking the groove on a car alarm after that !


    Sounds like a bloody good cure to me and one Dr.Loonie would approve of 100% ;)

  81. La Rit
    No seriously, I tried it for a year. There's something about rhythm I never fully got being a self-taught guitarist - the incessant, utterly perfect tempo. Then I got bored with the banality of after party chat and went back to beer. Fun though. Damn fun.

  82. Jay

    That clip is hilarious...you have to give him 10 out of 10 for demagoguery. I once went to a public meeting where he was the key speaker - very entertaining but cruel to people who challenged him, not that many did, too scary.

  83. Sheff

    Yeah he could talk for Britain, you'd certainly want him on your debating team. Sounds so out of place to my ears hearing a British politician talk about anything with genuine conviction and passion.

  84. Beautiful evening walk - must dash meeting me sometime for a fish and chip supper but will be back later this evening.

    BW - important points and accurate history of UT that you make @17.58 above.

    Sheff inconceivable that I won't get to meet you all before I leave. I won't be there for the full evening but will be for a few hours and if folk eat early enough for dinner.

  85. Do I have to do the clubbing bit? I never did like them, though a few blues or a mandy always went down well.

    These days it's wine. Which reminds me...

    Take care

  86. This comment has been removed by the author.

  87. Paul

    I'm not an economist, but the minimum wage thing seems to be quite complicated to me.

    First of all, I do think that reliance on it, or the issue of it, has become a 'quick fix', which can offer extensive political rewards, without actually necessarily offering any real social ones.

    As with my previous conversation with Leni, it's more a question of Purchasing Power Parity, or whether the increase makes a difference in real terms....

    (For example, if 'businesses' do raise their prices to cover the cost of the wage increase, we're all pretty much in the same position anyway...)

    With regards to the effect on businesses, this is a potential issue.
    If businesses don't raise prices/lay-off workforce etc to cover the cost, then they could be squeezed.

    However, I don't buy this as an argument to not raise wages (or more accurately, living standards), really, because I consider it somewhat of a straw man.

    In my opinion, the small-business owner is a largely fictitious 'joe the plumber' type character brought out to justify doing/not doing certain things.

    In reality, most small businesses are very small (Plumbers, sparkies etc, some shops,) employing just a few people,(and, I'd argue that, often, they pay above minimum wage anyway), and the vast majority of businesses are medium-to-big ones.

    But by using the 'small business' thing so frequently, however, 'they' cover the fact that they're actually protecting the millions in profits made by the big companies, which, we now know, is all that really matters....

    (Consider what happened during 'the crisis'.

    The 'free-market was protected', yet it was the banks and big companies that were protected, not the small businesses.

    The small ones, were effectively left to die, particularly because the banks themselves refused to give them the credit necessary to ride it out!)

    So, what I guess I'm saying, is that I think there should be a concerted effort to raise living standards, dignity and fairness in pay, but that I think this would be best achieved by looking at other issues (Pay disparity within companies, caps/higher taxes on profits/giving workers a cut of the profits, etc), and by looking at the minimum wage as a small part of what has happened to the 'average person' in Britain's race to be big business' bitch in recent years!

  88. @James-good points.Will come back later as i,m pushed
    for time at the moment.

    @Sheff-hope you saw my response to you re 80,s
    apprenticeships compared to today government effort.
    Keep mistakedly pressing that bloody deletion 'brush'.

  89. Jay
    This is what happens when the UT is left to the men for a day, hours of innane banter about drugging and assaulting sheep...

    You said it! LOL!

    Was very funny though ;-)

  90. Bitterweed:

    Oh, god the 'after-party' chat, tell me about it... I've lost hours of my life talking gibberish... mind you, I've had some good ones too, some, where people reveal their innermost souls (including a friend and his wife, who started talking, 4 years after the event, about how they survived the Tsunami) or ones where you just end up cahtting to someone for hours who you really, really like as a human bean and are never going to meet again, but, what the hell, it's like an E-enhanced mutual, human appreciation society ;)

    Only occasionally do you get those boring wannabee-wankers who needed a punch in the gob ;)

    I've not really stopped, but my clubbing is now restricted to about once every 6 months, it takes me a while to recover from being awake for 16 hours.

    My weakness is particular sound systems, I was (and still am) obsessed by them, of course, no-one's going to waste shite records on a fab sound system,following the music that goes with them.... bit of a rarity these days, but it can be a sublime experience.

    talking of which... Sunday and Monday it's going to be a bit of one of those for me, I'll let you know ;)

  91. Re training...

    Again, I see this as another example of bending over to business.

    It used to be (or so I'm told) that businesses, companies, industries etc, used to make a significant investment in their workforce.

    This not only covered training, etc, but ranged from Social Clubs, to sports teams, to grants and funds for employees and their children.

    As far as I can see, this sort of stuff doesn't exist anymore, or, where it does, it's highly unusual.

    Business, especially since becoming more 'white collar', has also become more mobile.
    This means that they no longer see the need to invest in an area, or in a workforce, knowing that, should a better opportunity present itself, they'll up and move to another area/country with a minimum of fuss.

    The Apprenticeship, or any form of long-term training, has been replaced by the 'training day', or 'week', designed to, at best, increase productivity with sleight of hand, or using management speak and motivation seminars.

    It's bollocks, and I agree that there should be a return to giving something back to the workforce in the shape of qualifications or opportunity, and again, I think a lot of this can be achieved by significantly changing the nature and power balance of the employer/employee relationship!!

  92. Leni

    My Hard Drive's not being very co-operative at the moment, but I did find this......

    (OK, it's from wiki, but it seems to be fairly accurate....)

  93. james

    It used to be (or so I'm told) that businesses, companies, industries etc, used to make a significant investment in their workforce.

    You're right, they did - the last of that went under Thatcher in the 80's. The other side of that coin was much more powerful unions and as you say - much less mobility.

    Seems nowadays, the workers on the shop floor are considered a necessary evil by a lot of employers and they put in the least they can get away with. As long as they can tick all the equality and H&S boxes on the multitudes of bits of paper that have proliferated thats all they need to do.

    There has always been a very adversarial relationship between shop floor workers and management in the UK - very different from what I saw in Germany, again back in the 80's (I went there during the miners strike), where unions have (or at least had then, don't know how it is today) seats on the board and the relationship was much more about achieving consensual agreements.

  94. Sheff,

    "Seems nowadays, the workers on the shop floor are considered a necessary evil by a lot of employers and they put in the least they can get away with. As long as they can tick all the equality and H&S boxes on the multitudes of bits of paper that have proliferated thats all they need to do."


    And from my, admittedly quite limited experience, HR is mostly on 'management' side anyway, and is, again, designed/present to increase performance/short term productivity, rather than long-term contentment or satisfaction.

    And it's become a self-reinforcing descending shit-storm thing also, because, when the investment in a 'worker' has been minimal, they are infinitely more expendable, and therefore less secure, and therefore less likely to be productive, and more likely to be expendable, and less qualified for anything else, and more desperate/easier to be taken advantage of..... etc, etc ad infinitum....

  95. Folks

    I've just put up a little experiment that was run in Washington DC a while ago on the UT2

    You can find it here: Perception, taste and people's priorities

    Of particular interest to musos.

  96. James, good points. I work for a small business and an increase in the minimum wage will hurt it. Thing is, I'm leaving it soon, as many others have, because in a small business you have to take on many more roles than in a structured corporate environment.

    The boss won't pay any higher, so I guess this business is going to end soon. The only reason I'm the longest serving member of the work force is because she's been a friend since childhood.

    If you can't pay decent wages, above minimum, you are not going to succeed as a small business. I'm happy not to be a capitalist - I won't have to suffer the realisation of that, as one day she surely will.

  97. james

    Perhaps I should say - except for Japanese companies where they seem to buy your life.

  98. La Rit
    "Take a load of pills and go clubbing for a year.
    You'll be checking the groove on a car alarm after that !"
    Reminded me of this - Tyres from "Spaced".

  99. sheff/james/paul,

    I'm in the middle of putting an article together on the Dutch elections and industrial relations here is something I was going to add. Similar to Sheff's observations in Germany.

  100. Habib,

    I agree about the more roles thing.
    It's funny though, because it used to be considered a good thing, because it created more of a co-operative feel, and, unless I'm overly romanticising the past, it was appreciated and reciprocated.

    Now it seems to be 'do it, or else....', which is an entirely different thing....


    Japan's a whole different kettle of fish, on so many levels.
    I remember reading that, for ages, it was common to have the name of the company you worked for as your surname!?
    (Also something about 125 year mortgages, which, you know, might go some way to explaining the above...)


    Was going to ask how that was coming along...

    Looking forward to it!!

  101. HeyHabib;

    I was just thinking of that ;) That'll be me come Monday afternoon - finding rhythym in the bloody traffic-crossings and talking gibberish ....

    Oh, god, don't go there...

  102. Sheff:

    just in case... thnks for that post... I could go on even more than I've already commented....

    Heysoos, I have to put me slap on and get out of the house....

    ;-) x

  103. Hi All

    Good discussion above re apprenticeships,minimum wage etc.. Minimum wage can certainly hurt smaller businesses but one other viewpoint says that it will put more cash into the pockets of more people therefor generating a healthier economy. This should benefit most people, but as with James, I'm no economist either, and maybe oversimplifying.

    Apprenticeships in Canada also were cut down in the 80's, and qualified immigrants took up most of the slack. This policy was found unsustainable and the program seems to have beeen restarted, but in this age of specialisation and small contracts, nowhere near what it was. Unions at one time also indentured workers, but with the slow demise of unionisation this is rarer today.

    James, agree with others, I enjoy your input, and also never saw a rules sheet as to the content of our posts here.

    deano--I will refuse to accept a resignation from you, so put that out of your head.

    PhilippaB--Congrats on the job. Hoping it suits your talents.

  104. Sheff - my lovely, (Dorset I believe) how to put this.......well my fine young sir,.... no, no plainly wrong. my dear young mister plainly misguided and upsetting.

    I am fucking useless with this thing called language please to permit me to call you young miss (in my part of Yorkshire it's affectionate and a term of endearment) despite the angst of my mad mick friend.

    I'l not let you and Chin down our lass.

    Me plan depends on PCC and her health if she can only attend for for a short while I'll fit my attend around that.

    Be assured, I take it as I find it and always try find a contingency plan to enjoy the company of fine friends. I'm not rich but I can buy a few for admired friends.

    I will even if I'm not able to dine with you all buy my most admired A42 dinner. It's a promise and I don't tell lies.

  105. And Deano,

    I for one, would miss your updates from my part of the world...

  106. Evening all


    In absolute agreement with you James about the need
    for greater consensus between management and workforce
    -linking that with Sheff and Dukes points about the
    way they do things in Germany and Holland.Problem is
    the whole idea of CONSENSUS seems almost alien to the
    British landscape-our whole society seems to be
    underpinned by adversarial principles.

    I may be wrong but i,m sure the foundations of
    German industrial relations were imposed by the
    allies in 1945.But that those same foundations were
    deemed to be unsuitable for the British.And of course
    it was the British ruling classes that deemed them
    to be unsuitable.

    re TRAINING I think we can all agree the need to return to 'proper' apprenticeships.It seems in the last 20 years government and business have opted for
    the 'quick fix'-ie short one-off courses plus
    of course increase dependancy on immigrants.Says
    something when a country with over 60 million
    people can,t provide most of its own skilled workers
    in areas like plumbing,electricals,construction
    and printing to name just a few.Much more onus
    therefore needed on apprenticeships and vocational
    training.However we must never forget that someone
    still has to do the low-status unskilled jobs
    and these workers must be given more protection
    than they get now.

    @Duke-The Dutch went through a period of radical
    welfare reform in the 90,s when over 1million
    working aged people-in a total population of 16
    million-were on disability benefits.When i,ve got
    time i'll be looking at that to see whether a
    new Left model of government in Britain could learn something from the Dutch.

    Finally a whinge about 'Polly'.She,s posted a blog
    on CIF condemning welfare reform UNDER IDS.I stand
    to be corrected but i can,t remember a whisper from
    her when James Purnell and Co were let loose on
    the most vulnerable people in our society.Methinks
    the lady now has a serious credibility problem.

    Apologies as always for typo errors etc but me brain
    is a bit raddled today.

  107. Duke

    (Because you put a 'monkey on my back', and I really wanted to see the Neil Young footage...)

    Seems it was pulled/bought up by someone or other for use in a film, possibly 'Heart of Gold'?!
    (There was quite an interesting documentary on BBC Four a little while back, but I can't remember if that footage was in it!!)

  108. Paul

    "Problem is
    the whole idea of CONSENSUS seems almost alien to the
    British landscape-our whole society seems to be
    underpinned by adversarial principles"

    (Without wanting to undermine your point), I agree entirely with that..... ;0)

  109. Paul,

    that's right, the Netherlands introduced the 'Youth Unemployment Action Plan' in 2003, to directly tackle the NEETs problem. There's been some failures but some impressive successes.

  110. James,

    the Neil Young Glasgow Central clip is driving me up the wall. It's fantastic and I can't find it anywhere.

    There's a geat bit when an old boy walks past and says "This is music? It's a load of bloody rubbish"

    If it's on the 'Heart of Gold' documentary, I'm going to have to buy it.

  111. Boudican

    With regards to training etc, Canada seems to have the added problem of the 'brain drain' in the direction of the US though, right!?

    It seemed to be a bit of a 'hot-topic' amongst my friends last time I was there....

    (Brazil, I think, has a law where if you get a scholarship/grant for post-graduate studies aboard, you have to come back and work here for at least the same amount of time, before f@cking off again.....)

  112. *abroad, not aboard.

    As far as I know, the law's not exclusive to those working on ships, planes or trains.

    (Idiot, James..)

  113. James

    I 'll try but if some half bake comes across I can't guarantee.

    Them fucking twats from Nott's and Eire are disturbing my equilibrium - if they continue to0 do it I will shoot.

  114. "I agree about the more roles thing.
    It's funny though, because it used to be considered a good thing, because it created more of a co-operative feel"

    James, that feeling is true, as it always has been. People will work for less, if they believe they are building something, together. Unfortunately, the rich won't take a pay cut, not one that affects them, not ever, it's only the workers that have to do that.

    When they are told it is to safeguard their jobs, as with BA cabin crew, they are expected to accept it, because it's for their own good.

    I have worked my way up to middle management in a few multi nationals and I have never met a single director who was worth his pay check. That's right - his - there aren't many women up there.

    They all get ludicrous amounts of money and have absolutely no knowledge of their business.

    I just feel a little sad for my true blue old friend boss.

  115. I adore the dance of life .....that is if we are civilised folk,.....it's all we have to offer.

    I adore that.... and all who chose to spend time here on UT - your class. I hope that you can sense me.

    You half baked twats in Nott's and Daneland ..............................you soft headed or serious?

    I'm happy to defend Yorks. My grandfather had 110 descends at the last count.

    I have two sons and quite a fucking army about me.

    Hank/Scherf --how many non blink-inking soldiers?

    Rhetoric and misfortunate, the reality of the tale of our lives - why would you then think you were cleverer than me?


  116. Lets be fucking clear - you twats are having to go a long way before you can convince me that when the tit is tough:

    i) Nott's men dont run for confusion;


    ii) mick men don't emigrate.

    In Yorkshire the men of my childhood would stand and fight till they had no breath left. Else they would be regarded as a Nott or a Mick.

    We do not do part time here.

  117. Boudican, Thauma, and everyone else....

    By way of an apology for my Celine incident the other day, and because it's Friday Night....

  118. I have a discomfort about me today - sorry.

    It's intense,

  119. James
    I was deeply worried for a while...
    I am currently at a mates house who stays in Nevada regularly. The enormous grotesque mansion that C-Dion has built in the desert there (including acres of lawn and a lake) is an insult to anyone who appreciates the desert....

    She's a cunt basically.

  120. Much better James - you're forgiven - a mean flute player too!


    You're definitely on a ramble tonight old chap...

  121. deano30: please don't resign. You may think your "prattlings" are inconsequential. I dis agree. Your wisdom is vital to this site.
    I'm exiled in the North East but "you can take the boy out of Yorkshire but you can't take Yorkshire out of the boy" as they say.
    Well I'm proud to be a Yorkshire man where people say what they mean and mean what they say.
    Cue: all sorts of vitriol about "identity politics"!

  122. Has anyone seen Alistair Campbell's diary extract on the Graun yet?

    I know I shouldn't be astonished but the diary extract for the day John Smith died is utterly repellent.

    It goes along the lines of- "Just heard John Smith died, terrible shock, call Tony, speak to Charlie Whelan, Gordon says he may go for leadership, Tony flies down to London to discuss leadership, speculate, scheme, hubble, bubble, toil and trouble....." and John Smith's corpse is not even cold.

    If Campbell or the rest of them had a moral bone in their body the diary would have said:

    "Just heard John Smith died, appaliing news."

    Diary ends.


  123. You i'll advised mick -................confident at the insult of my dog? - I'm angry.

    I'll advised Mick -I'll seek your throttle.

    I owe that to me old dog Miss D. She and I have walked over 20,000 miles. I

    I have no other understanding but that if you think my dogs are shit I'll choke you - hard

    regards d.

  124. Hahaha - For the record, I'm not a Celine fan, it's just the 'all by myself' thing seemed ironically appropriate at the time....


    For you, and for Yorkshire.......

  125. Agree Your Grace - sums them up really.

    Following James here's another tune How can a poor man live...

  126. Duke,

    I saw it (am using the Guardian for doing linkies - that'll learn 'em), but went with the 'not touching that with a big stick' approach'!!

  127. Bitterweed,

    Evening, hope you're well, I've not looked in here in ages.

    Mate, do I remember right and you have an interest in and knowledge of the Ken Saro-Wiwa case?

    Sorry if I've dreamed that up out of nowhere, but I've got a vague recollection of you posting about it previously. There is a reason for the question.

  128. Deano

    You're definitely on a ramble tonight old chap...
    28 May, 2010 22:31
    chekhov said...

    I know I wish I was not .

    The half ill considered bakes - what you do have me do adred young miss?

  129. Good call Sheff,

    Hadn't heard this version before, but was a big fan of The Boss' version....

  130. 13th Duke: I don't think anyone on UT could give a rat's fuck about anything the odious Alastair Campbell has to say. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.

  131. @ the Duke: Campbell is a cunt. End of story. One of the vilest creatures in the country. He's backing David Miliband.

  132. Yes, yes, all right. It was still a great track, though.

    As is this bit of a more saintly sort.

  133. James/chekhov/Alisdair

    it's the callousness, that lust for power that can't even see a man in rigor mortis before the scheming starts.

    I know it's total naïvete on my part, but the amorality of the 'men who would be king' never ceases to astonish me.

  134. Duke,

    To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there was a 'scheme' in place already...

  135. Peter,

    not enormously into jazz but I quite like be-bop, Charlie Parker etc.

    The thing about the jazz guys of that era is they were so hard into partying, the wild life and drugs when Moon, Richards, Jagger, Bonham et al were still in nappies.

    Every 2nd page of Chet Baker's short autobiography 'As though I had wings' seems to reminisce about someone in his band being busted for drugs or dying from them.

    Of course Parker was the daddy of them all when it came to the hard partying.

  136. 13th Duke: if you despise Alastair Campbell so much, stop giving him oxygen. Just ignore him.

  137. @Duke

    Damn right. There's a lot of jazz from that period that seems to me to be just noise, often drugged-up noise... And yet certain players cut through it somehow with a purity that really gets to me. Miles Davis is one, John Coltrane is another, maybe McCoy Tyner and Sonny Rollins... And Chet Baker, obviously.

    My musical taste is all over the place because I look for the same things in everything I hear, and I hear them in every genre and period. But I only know them when I hear them, so I have to listen to a lot of the mediocre most of the time.

  138. Oh come sweet half bake - you may dreaming .

    I Think not.

  139. Duke

    There was another unelected New Labour bod called Jo
    someone who declared that 9/11(or it may have been 7/7)was a good day for the government to bury bad news.

    What of course is really sad is a lot of people
    genuinely believed that that nice smiley Mr Blair
    had no idea that many of his entourage of unelected
    bods were unscrupulous shitheads.

    If i had my way i,d lock the lot of them up somewhere
    and subject them to medley after medley of very
    loud Status Quo numbers.ie the same two notes 24/7.

    Apologies to any Quo fans but i can,t stand 'em.

  140. just saw this underneath the Tracy Chapman video on youtube.....

    "I listened to this album over and over when I was 11/12 years old at the end of the 80's when I saw Nelson Mandela being released from prison, the Berlin wall fall, the Romanian people liberate themselves from the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu and I felt hope that that the world was becoming a better place. But then came the 90's, I grew up and never felt that kind of hope again."

    Amen to that....

  141. Article below about Saro-Wiwa, further to what I posted above.


  142. @Paul

    That was Jo Moore, and it was 11 September 2001. Do you know what the bad news was she thought of burying under those buildings, planes and 3,000 corpses? Local councillors' expenses increases. That was the limit of her empathy, and the scope of her brain, and even then it took ages for her to be sacked.

    I was working in a big company at the time, and as the picture unfolded all of us just slid off home, or to the pub, and nobody ever said a word. It was that big. And all Jo Moore could think about was local government expenses. It's poverty, of a sort.

    Here's something worth hearing and seeing.

  143. There is a wonderful song which I remember as being written by Bertholt Brecht with music by Kurt Weil.It was called "Grusha's Song". Does anyone know how to find it?

  144. Chekhov,

    Campbell never registers on my radar, I never give him a second thought, but when he happily publicises his grotesque reactions and actions on the day of someone’s death in a national newspaper then he’s definitely up for comment and vilification.

    Paul, the Quo's too good for them!


    a bit of night time bird watching for you

    night all

  145. Night Duke.

    (Good tune to go out on)


    If it's not on youtube, I don't have any other ideas I'm afraid!

  146. 13th Duke; fair comment.

  147. PeterJ

    Agreed.A total lack of humanity .Shameful!

    Nite all.

    ps deano-don,t let the bastards grind you down!!

  148. chekhov

    Grusha was a character in Brecht's play - The Caucasian Chalk Circle. He wrote songs for it but can't find them anywhere. Great play by the way. We did it way back in the 70's at the old Playhouse in Sheffield before the Crucible was built.

  149. @Sheff

    Yes, I'd tracked it down that far as well. There must be another title; will have to go through the Brecht/Weill songbook...

  150. PeterJ

    There was a great programme on the tv last week about Arvo Part (and Gorecki) last week. Did you see it?

  151. @Sheff

    No, missed it - don't see much TV, if that's where it was. Can I track it down? Part's on my funeral music list, and I liked Gorecki before it was fashionable or profitable (with apologies to Myles na cGopaleen).

  152. I't's hard to catch up with the music, sometimes... James and Sheff are just brilliant as of 22:44 thus far.

  153. Sheffpixie: ah yes the old Sheffield Playhouse, I remember it well. I could be wrong but I'm not sure if "Grusha's song was from "The Caucasian Chalk Circle" My recollection is that it was from "Mother Courage and Her Children"
    Anyway I'm just splitting hairs, it's a great song and I hope we can find it and share it!

  154. Yo, PeterJ in the house. Feels like everything's aliright.

  155. Peter

    It was a prog on BBC4 called Sacred Music so you probably find it on BBC iplayer

  156. Right folks, it's night from me too......

    Hope this keep my average up Habib

    Have a good one!!

  157. Hey habibi!

    Things are OK. I just dug out the cocktail shaker and made a batch of margaritas for old time's sake, so the legs will go in a moment or two.

    Here's something for another Manchester boy...

  158. Myles Na Gopaleen - now you're talking. here's chapter 4 from the 3rd Policeman. Scroll down the page a bit...

  159. Wybourne laughing and quite right, too, but James bringing it back

    (sorry that I'm out of sync, but you really sould listen to all the music offered, I think.)

  160. @Sheff

    I lent my copy of 'Best of Myles' to a transvestite in the Brighton Tavern a couple of years ago, so I haven't been able to recharge the batteries with Keats and Chapman, The Brother, The Plain People of Ireland or the pre-read book service of the WAAMA...

    Let a alone the Catechism of Cliche.

    Thanks for the tip about the TV programme, and the Tavener reminder.

  161. Peter

    I lent my copy of 'Best of Myles' to a transvestite in the Brighton Tavern a couple of years ago

    Read in the right dialect that could be straight out of Myles himself...

  162. Paul J,

    Not likely they find me unlikely - I'm pissed off with the Mick and the Nott

    as they are with me.

    But push and shove they have no army.


  163. @Sheff

    I know! Life in Brighton's a bit like that. The TV's boyfriend was a rehearsal pianist for West End musicals, and that was the year I was adopted as the pub's Token Straight for the Brighton Pride parade.

  164. James--You're correct about Canadian 'brain drain', especially in science/medical professions. Don't think the drift south is as bad as 80' or 90's but I'll see if I can find out more.

    You've completely redeemed your cred with that Spirit cut. So much so that if I ever have the good fortune to meet you in person the first drink is on me. Along with a hefty chunk of Stilton.

    Good tunes, the rest of you. Friday jam is under way.

    Off to the pub for a couple. (sure,sure) Back later.

  165. One of my problems with this site is it's dishonesty.. The pretence that there is no moderation, gatekeeping or exclusion...
    When there is...

  166. Some cunt spat upon my toe ...........

    I don't think so.

  167. Explain half bake Kiz?????

  168. You is going to have to be knowledge sweet Blackpool lass ..............else ...bye.

  169. yey!!! Wybourne picks it up again, like he always does.

  170. Take care everyone. Back tomorrow.


  171. staybryte

    I was meaning to hit the sack but that essay about Ken Saro Wiwa was so good it's kept me up.


    I don't get what you mean?

  172. Kiz - have you read your half baked twat of a sister's bru's insult to my sister Montana.....................

    let me tell you, if she turns up here again I'l gentle deano30 will tell her to fuck off - she be a cow.

  173. Come on "Kizbot" where is your evidence that this site is "moderated"?

  174. Kizbot--Examples please. I'm relatively new here and genuinely curious as to what you mean. I won't speak for others but if you are impugning all on this site, I must take exception to your statement. Thanks.

  175. Kizbot: the silence is deafening!

  176. This comment has been removed by the author.

  177. Bitey here.. Mel and Mave there....

  178. "One of my problems with this site is it's dishonesty.. The pretence that there is no moderation, gatekeeping or exclusion...
    When there is... "

    I guess the lies perpetuate themselves, created by liars and believed by those who want them to be true.

  179. habib ....maybe be ......not that often ....and I have a strong opinion not about that cow Bru. She in my view be bitch - no excuses permitted.

    But then my friend our business is sometimes to disagree.