05 May 2010


Kublai Khan became ruler of the Mongols in 1260.  The Swiss canton of Aargau denied citizenship to Jewish residents in 1809.  Mexico defeated the French, thwarting an attempted invasion, in 1862 at the Battle of Puebla.  The Bay View Massacre happened in Milwaukee in 1886, when 14,000 labourers gathered to protest outside the Milwaukee Iron Company for an 8 hour work day.  Wisconsin militiamen started firing on the crowd as they walked toward the company's gates, killing 7 people, including a 13 year old boy.

Born today:  Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855), Karl Marx (1818-1883), Tyrone Power (1914-1958), Tammy Wynette (1942-1998), Michael Palin (1943), Mary Hopkin (1950), Roddy Radiation (1955), Ian McCulloch (1959), Naomi Klein (1970) and Yossi Benayoun (1980).

It's Men's Day in Romania and Cinco de Mayo in bars all across the US.


  1. It's Bevrijdingsdag (liberation day) in the Netherlands.

  2. Hi medve and thaumaturge, just popped in for a minute before bed. Talk to yous tommorrow.

  3. Goodnight Boudican, morning thauma

  4. Ah,, yes, Karl Marx - who did a nice sideline in department store Santas to make a bit of fun-money...

  5. Good day everyone. Won't be around too long. Too busy.

  6. NapK

    Good luck with the job applications.... hope the Cheery Beer and the Whine haven't made you too befuddled today!

    White wine is anathema to my body and brain - usually sparks a migraine the next day :-(

  7. Happy Birthday Karl Marx!

    I'd have a hearty beer in the Blue Posts on Tottenham Court Road in your honour, but it was erased without trace by a hideous development and a giant Sainsbury's.... the slow tsunami of Capitlaism marches ever forward :-(

  8. Right.

    Am logging-off until later.

    I really need to try and find the means of production today ;)

    laters all.

  9. Morning all and I hope that we see both Paul and turminder later in the day.

    Yesterday Montana mentioned an Italian connection - our long standing UT member/friend Dan Pearce and his class comic strip which he started over a year ago now.

    (Unfamiliar or new UT's still finding their way way around here can access his the fab comic strip via the "Danpearceitaly's Comics" link in "Other Cif-related Sites" strip on the right above)

    Dan started his strip over a year ago now with the following introduction:

    "April 16th, 2009

    Depression — A beginners guide

    A word about the ‘Depression’ comic: This originally began as a self portrait describing my life when the kids were young and I was broke and had embarked on my mid-life crisis which developed into what I realised later was clin ical depression of a fairly mild kind– that is to say, NOT bi-polar or manic depression. I thought that the strip could be helpful to other sufferers of depression as well as being useful therapy for myself"

    I've been a fan of the strip since it started and of course I especially like the dog when it makes its occasional appearances.

    He never draw a new strip everyday but he was damned diligent and we fans used to get a new addition to the story every few days. And then nearly the year later on April 12 2010 his latest strip.......... and then nothing since

    I waited and waited and then became a little worried so I left him a comment on his strip and emailed him the same. Great news for his other fans here......he emailed me back as follows:

    "Hi Deano,
    Thank you so much for your email- you have no idea how much it means to me.
    Yes, i am well although battling with the usual demons...
    But I shall be continuing with the strip cos i can't just abandon it particularly when my fans let me know they're missing it.
    I count you as a fan and that cheers me immensely so THANK YOU.
    Please say hello to all on Untrusted and I shall get back to Depression ASAP for your sake if no-one else's...
    Best wishes,

    Plainly from time to time we all take our friends for granted, and in Yorkshire the men are fucking notorious for failing to say thank you as our comrades kindly pass us the port. The women of course are more civilised.

    So here publicly on UT I say to Dan - thanks brother I really enjoy the quality of your work and look forward to its resumption!!

    I hope that some of Dan's other fans (new and old) will also leave a comment of appreciation/encouragement over on his strip

    Dan's comic is only a click away

    If you unfamiliar with the strip it's well archived and you can flick back or forward through it at your leisure

  10. one quick word.....

    Fab posts on the Freedland thread Ms Robinson

  11. deano

    I will be sure to follow up Dan's Comic Strrip later on today.

    many thanks ;)

  12. Well. Hi all, Sorry for the unintended offense. Still I stand by 'It's only words' and not the N word the C word (Compromise) Paki, Honky, Frog, Kraut ad infinitum or any bloody word should be banned. Use the word to defuse the word.

    Once again sorry to Paul, but he knows nothing about me, my background, upbringing, friends and society, as I now little about him, in fact until he wigged out a few weeks ago, I honestly didn't know he was black...

  13. Deano - thanks for the link to Dan's comic. Some very accurate stuff in there. (And dog clearly the star!)

  14. Morning all
    just saw this on a local law passed in northern italy
    this was the bit that had me spluttering coffee all over me keyboard:::::

    "The Northern League mayor of Novara said face-covering veils demeaned women. "We cannot accept cultures that destroy women's dignity," Massimo Giordano said in a statement."

    Let me just contextualise this with this documentary made late last year that caused some controversy...most of the programmes are from Berlusconi's mediaset TV empire......Berlusconi's coalition is held together by the Northern League nasty bunch......

  15. Turminder:

    It's a tricky one I agree and not easy to contextualise in a non-offensive format online. Esp. a word which has such loaded meaning. I'm walking into a potential mind-field as I probably know the least about anyone here...

    OK slightly different, but I had a big old to-do last month about the word 'cunt' on CiF..... I myself have no problem with it and have no compunction about using it, but for other women, it is highly problematic.

    On a lighter note, I gathered you weren't being malicious - you're talking here to the person who said on CiF that the likes of Anna Ford were happy to suck the cocks of rich and famous men in order to get their nice chateau up France and their kids into the best public schools and have 'famous' literary figures like Martin Amis as god parent to their spoilt off-spring, only to moan 15 years later about them being tight-arsed gits - in public!

    Anyway, I hope Paul comes back very soon.

  16. Gandolfo;

    everyone has been linking to videos and audios all morning.... am having trouble listening to anything because i can't get the sound to fire-up on this computer... v. frustrating.

    Athens is going up in flames btw and 3 people are dead in a bank that was set on fire with a pertol bomb.... shape of things to come here???

    it's shocking news :(

  17. Thank you La Rit...it is the aspirational middle classes who will kill us all and bankrupt the system as they vote Tory which will not help them anyway..only those who already have the means of production and tend to do it internationally.

  18. Hello all

    News from Greece is dire.

    Attacks against the burqua increasing - more and more divisions being created, more sticks to beat someone with and millions milling around helplessly and hopelessly.

    The choice of leaders we have --- ?

  19. Good to see you MsR - your latest blog had me smiling a lot.

    Mate of mine (aged around 70) finally found a delightful internet date (a very tasty and stylish lady of of 60ish) and they become very fond of each other. Then they found his fegging cock didn't work proper. He's dedicated. Despite the risk of a heart attack he's got himself the magic blues!

    Watch this space - internet dating could kill!

    I'm going to repeat my request for a piece from you on the black arts of advertising for our UT" thread.!

  20. Thanx La Rit, I ws trying to be inclusive and jokey with the word, as I have with friends, of all shades, IRL, but sure, mebee different & difficult online..

    The veil hypersexualises women, thoughts, etc..

  21. Don't mention it Ms Robinson - it cut straight to the chase!

    RE: the 'aspirational Middle Classes' there seem to be a few who geniunely believe in greater social equity and who go all out for that (I was really surprised by some of the posters on the Milne thread yesterday saying "I'm middle class and I've not been too badly affected but I'm damned if I'm going to vote Tory to let people rot in hell)

    On the other hand, we are surrounded by the nimby brigade here - Herne Hill and Clapham - and I suspect that just like buying into catchment areas or their kids attending private schools, they are aping their 'betters' and long to be in the stratosphere along with the super rich - the rest of us of course, can go and fend for ourselves.

    Those 'aspirationals' thinking of voting Tory would do well to study what happened in Argentina... vast swathes of the middle classes were abandoned like the poor..... if they think they're 'safe' they're fucking mad.

    I've been pretty down as the election has drawn closer, my life certainly hasn't been a bed of roses, but I dread to think how difficult it will be to survive if the Tories get in and start the demolition job of services, benefits and the rest. it just doesn't bear thinking about :(

  22. Hi Turminder

    The veil - it is a difficult one - what do men think about a veiled woman - in the sexual rather than cultural context ?
    I would be interested in the lustful male, inflamed by the mere sight of a woman side of the discussion - have to be very careful who I sit next to on a bus sort of thing.

    People should be free to wear clothes of their choosing but the rationalisation of veil wearing is demeaning to men and women.

  23. La Rit

    Anybody relying on a job and regular salary to feed and clothe them is at risk - surely the aspirational middle classes can understand that. Our place in society depends upon our ability to maintain it - which means pay for it.

  24. Cannot understand why EU didn't support the Greek people in this fiasco - we should have supported them . Time to be rid of the thieves and robbers, the incompetent and arrogant who rule the world.

    Europe is weakened by this - economically and socially.

  25. "People should be free to wear clothes of their choosing but the rationalisation of veil wearing is demeaning to men and women" Agree 100%, but my point is the 'modesty' argument is that it prevents lustfull thoughts in men, I think it exacerbates them...

    Any hoo, take a look at this;

    Cameron's Britain

  26. @Deano...I will provide tuition on the dark arts of advertising for which I was well compensated (and the parties were good too). Ah the eighties.

    Next week I promise.....

    @Leni..No, I wonder if people do get it. On one hand they want the nanny state when their holiday planes get caught out with volcano ash - a holiday being a privilege not a right - but hey where's the nanny state for the approx 2000 workers who are injured/killed each year. Too busy putting crash helmets on kids riding tricyles.

    The problem here is that people THINK they can be grown up and take responsibility but when it comes down to it they don't want to. So all those people around me in North London who mortgaged their legs to buy flats they couldn't afford and ended up with sheets on the windows for curtains, those people you should be worried about - because they think Cameron is for them.

  27. The few people I know who would be inclined to vote Tory tend to be very much of a kind.

    They seem to believe in the individual above anything else, i.e. If I can work hard and do well then why can't everyone, never taking into account that others don't have their advantages and luck.

    And when things don't go their way they are very quick to tell you how it is different for them.

    They are not always bad people but they seem to lack any amount of empathy for anyone who isn't just like them.

    And yes they will believe the lies the Tories spout because deep down they believe they are the elite, the goodies and they are going to end up on top of the pile.

    I fear a lot of people are in for a hard fall.

  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

  29. Leni - "....I would be interested in the lustful male, inflamed by the mere sight of a woman side of the discussion...."

    I could have problems with that sort of thing. I haven't yet grown out of difficult dreams and 'weeks'!

    I still have ankle/thigh/back of knee/earlobe/hands/smiles........................................................neck...........etc weeks. It's such a fucking pity that there are only 52 weeks in year, there are more than 52 object d'art of the female form.

    I really do like ladies and all of their delightful bits bobs and the wild wild (and sometimes imagined) conversations that one can have with them.

    I'm a simpleton, I simply choose one lady bit for each week of the year and when I'm forced to visit a supermarket I focus on that. It makes the tedious task of shopping tolerable.

    I always were dark glasses, but in event I have never been accused of staring at a lady. I would never wish to discomfort or frighten the object of my adoring gaze.

    Coffee break over.

  30. Turminder

    A shocking read - but points to the inevitable outcome of the so called 'big society' . Where was the big society in the past - where in the victorian slums ? People are being conned - the idea that the third sector will answer all needs is also promoted by Lab. Public sector housing, old folks homes, bail hostels . all the supportive agencies are already in private hands - and failing.

    Cameron's emptiness - complete lack of any moral depth or conviction - has always to me the most notable thing. He frightens me, Something human is lacking. He wants to hide the sick and homeless, the unemployed, half trained youngsters - not help them. The big society is Thatchers no society - no reponsibility for the vulnerable. Vulnerability is often for some a passing phase - Cameron will trap many more in hopelessness, those already long term dependent on the rest of us will be drpped with a big bang. Who will support communities in worthwhile ventures to aid the needy ? Poor communities are full of people just about surviving now.

    I still want to know *where* is the money and how can we get it back ?

  31. Jnni

    the people you describe are unaware that the individual survives only as part of society - when the foundations collapse the whole edifice falls with it. How to make them understand ?

    We don't yet know where 'survival level' will be - we know public sector jobs are threatened along with services.

    Anybody who thinks they are on the safe side of the survival line is fooling themselves.

  32. "...They are not always bad people but they seem to lack any amount of empathy ...

    Jenn30 - I understand socio-paths have the same characteristic.

    I'm beginning to wonder whether or not the public should insist on brain scans for all prospective MP's. The scans of socio's show a deviation from the norm in the part of the brain dealing with empathy (if I remember correctly what I once read a long time ago).

    I'm not really into Eugenics but I suspect that the likes of Mandelson are.


  33. It seems like it's in the post whoever wins tho Leni, although the fish eyed Cameron would be the worse. The way they bang on about "a culture of entitlement" was the bit that got me, classic projection!

  34. Have just sent off voting picks to proxy, having finally managed to confirm that I can vote...will now be jittery until the results are in in case have backed the wrong horse...eep...

  35. The big socity is a load of bollocks. Cameron wnats the voluntary secotr and well mannered locals to take up the welfare stae-- remeber the time when in 'A Christmas Carol' some charity collecotrs come round collecting donations for 'the relief of the poor'. That kind of thing. Vicotrian men in top hats.

    Except it was found out that the donkey sanctuary received more donations than all the charities for victims of rape combined.

    So, the question has to be raised, the donkeys will have to be put to social use. When a single mother comes down the benefit office, she is told she can't have money. Instead she can have a donkey. She can either make a business giving donkey rides on the beach or she can kill the donkey and eat it's meat in lieu of reciving benefits to buy food. She would use it's fur to fashion her own clothes, it's bones to make kitchen utensils, and it's hooves to make rudimentary high heels for a night on the town.

    Problem solved.

  36. Or the RSPCA, another big hitter in the charity stakes. Every asylum seek could get a cuddly hedgehog.

  37. Ere!, He's havin a go at the hedgehogs now! ;-)

  38. V.good point Nap, there was a fantastic poster campaign that highlighted this as a person with 'Down's syndrome features' stands with a pet collar on holding a dog dish, the caption read, 'would it help if I ate from a bowl?'

    Charity will always get more for the fluffy bunny than the abused person..

  39. Yep, anyway, gotta go. I must be self disciplined. I haven't left the house today, I don't need to. It is simply a case of doing everything online now, applications and all.

    I will got out later though for some exercise. Goodbye for now.

  40. turminder

    Someone was dishing out free copies of the indie in town this lunchtime. I read that Johann Hari article instead of working when I got back to the office. It reminded me of the time that Porter woman was running Westminster council and the appalling carnage she and her cohorts inflicted there.

    Having just got home I heard on the news that Cameron has said that the Tories will look after the 'elderly, frail and poor." That'll be the way Hammersmith and Fulham council are doing it I expect.

  41. Napoleon / Turminder - having worked as an advisor to many many charities, I can sadly confirm that batty old women will give large sums to donkeys (in one cringe-worthy case, the specific donkey feature in an advert) but child protection and 'less sexy' organisations had to fight tooth and nail for anything.

    Now, a lot of the health-related ones get government support, which animals tend not to, but then you're at the mercy of the commissioning git, and believe me, corners are being cut in project funding. It was shit before (common conversation: "we'll give you £x, as you requested, including VAT" - "but £x needs to be excluding VAT, we have to account for VAT" - "no you don't" - "yes we do, you want this to be a contract, we have to account for VAT, if you don't give us the VAT, we lose 15% on the project" - "tough"), but it's getting worse.

    It's the lying from gvoernment about 'full cost recovery' that really pisses me off. They say blithely that charities should compete for funding on a full cost basis, which they do, but then they don't get the full funding. Apparently the important thing is that they ask, not that the government actually pays it...

    Got a good result for a client, cutting building costs by a lot. Was very pleased with self. Was then reduced almost to tears by the client's reaction - basically, dancing around her office, opening the door, and yelling out to her team "we can afford the kid's playroom and grief counsellor!". That was a hospice...

    Meanwhile, the donkeys...I just don't get it. I mean, I like animals. But I was a child once, and I'll be old at some point, and I'll be ill at some point. My money, what little it is, goes to people first. DOnkeys are all very well and good, but...


  42. Te downside of social capital was shown this week when both Brown and Cameron addressed religious groups - highlighted in several incidents where Xtians refused to help gays or others they see as undesirable.

    The dominant, cohesive group - supported by gvt., grant funding , is enabled to set the agenda - to extend inclusion only to those they approve. The Welfare state is supposed to over ride these differences and recognise the needs of all.

    the increasingly prevalent 'moral judgements' around so called entitlement - or otherwise - will rebuild and perpetuate old ideas about the deserving/nondeserving poor. It aims to breed compliance within a dominant model.

    Entitlement is the force behind all systems which are class or caste based - with those at the bottom having no entitlement /rights at all. Extremme example is a slave society in which people could be bought and sold and killed with impunity.

    Modern class based societies still allow people to be killed with impunity - not directly perhaps but through neglect of their needs. The rich, the elite are entitled to rule - the rest entitled to be manipulated and often discarded.

  43. La Rit
    bit late in the day but the video is with subtittles in english so you can sneaky sneaky look at it.....;)

    obviously for the Northern League they feel that scantily clad gals and women treated like pieces of meat on national TV demonstrates "dignity" afterall they have the "freedom" to "choose" to do that unlike "downtrodden" "uneducated" Muslim women in Italy (that's how they are 99% portrayed in the media here) ;)

  44. Phillipa
    "My money, what little it is, goes to people first. DOnkeys are all very well and good, but..."

    haven't you heard of donkey therapy?!?! Now that's a two for the price of one cause wouldn't you say......;)

  45. "Extreme example is a slave society in which people could be bought and sold and killed with impunity."

    Sounds like Hammersmith and Fulham...

  46. here you go for the donkey therapy link....just in case you don't believe me!!!!!

  47. I had to laugh when I read that article about fining the niqab'd woman, gandolpho. Italy of all countries! Famous for their fabulous respect for women!

    I don't know what it's like now, (but given what you say about the TV it's still pretty dire) but I remember in my youth (60's) getting a bruised backside from all the pinching and slapping it got. This came with the assumption that all British (and Scandinavian) women were up for being shagged by anyone who cared to ask. They do love their mummies though.

  48. gandolfo - was not aware of donkey therapy, but there are 'pet therapists' used in some hospices etc - dogs which visit the patients. also some rabbits (although I think they visited on different days..._

    (my attempts to get the dogs included as 'building users' when fighting with HMRC once did not go well...but it was well worth trying!)

  49. Hi everyone.

    Just popped in to read what had been going on the past few days, and to wish Karl a Happy Birthday.

    Interested to read the disagreement between Paul and Turminder last night. I don’t really “know” either of you, as I’ve not been around much lately, but here’s my two-pence-worth:

    The word “nigger” (however you spell it) and the word “cunt” are both understandably offensive to lots of people, and I’d be pretty loathe to use either of them here, except in this context of discussing their use.

    But I’d also be absolutely against anyone who suggested that the use of either word should be banned – we’re all grown ups here and should accept that being offended now and again is part of the price we pay for the ability to express ourselves more or less freely.

    That’s not to say that the use of such words can’t or shouldn't be challenged, although we’re each able to make our own minds up about what we challenge and what we let go.

    I’d prefer it if people didn’t use the words “nigger” or “cunt”, just as I’d prefer it if people didn’t refer to those whose opinions or way of expressing them they don’t like as nutters, mental etc, but once we start censoring the words we’re allowed to use, we end up like CiF. And I hope no-one wants that…

    BTW, Paul, I hope you can now see the irony in your use of the word "cunt" in your expression of outrage that someone else had used the word “nigger” ;-)

  50. The Conservative Rotten Borough Bugle

    5th May Eighteen Hundred and… (print error) Two Thousand and Ten.

    Exclusive report

    David Cameron unveiled his vision of a ‘Big Society’ yesterday denying that he has been in any way influenced by the Victorian approach to “ruffians, rogues, the undeserving…….sorry those alienated by contemporary society.”

    Wearing an enormous top hat and twisting a newly grown oiled moustache, he parped:

    “ I am confident that a major redistribution of wealth upwards can really help us tackle our stubborn social problems and our three key approaches will be a revolution in public spending, a shrug of the shoulders and complete unaccountability. Our plans for the ‘Big Society’ are based on a simple human insight: if you give people less access to a proper education, employment and hope, they behave more responsibly by dying quicker. This alleviates social problems in an instant.”

    Whilst tying a defenceless maiden to railway track and cackling deviously he continued:

    “Our first job will be to tackle the problems created by the welfare system. I have asked my chancellor Disraeli…sorry…Osborne to look into this important area. He has just announced a new public welfare package which we will entitle the Spinhamland System

    “The Spinhamland system is at the centre of our ‘Big Society’. As we continue the relentless pursuit to chase wages down, it is natural that the oiks will get angry. We will put the onus on the landowners of the parish and multi-billionaires of Belize to top up the bread rations per parish in order for the workers to work. No more welfare but just the right amount of bread for the drones to do their low paid soul destroying jobs is the motto of the Spinhamland System. Naturally everyone will be so hungry, they’ll be too weak to protest, the workshy and ruffians will perish and society will stabilize as no-one can do anything except worry where their next meal is coming from. Crime solved instantly”

    Cameron continued his speech standing in front of an enormous map in which one quarter of the world is coloured pink:

    ” The era of big government has run its course. Poverty and inequality have not worsened enough, despite Labour's war on the undeserving poor. We need new answers now, and they will only come from me, my Donors and Big Business making more money at the expense of everyone else, not bigger government. That's why it's now clear to me that the Conservatives, not Labour, are best placed to fight poverty in our country.”

    “Now if you’ll excuse me Gentlemen, I ‘m off to the Raj to shoot some tigers.”

  51. sheff - went on holiday with friends to Sicily, and me and the other woman got a lot of cat-calling / whistling / 'brush pasts' etc. They packed it in a bit when Lucy (6 months pregnant and wearing a wedding ring) linked arms with her husband, but then I was getting all of it. So one of my mates suggested we linked arms, to put them off.

    This made matters signficantly worse - apparently mixed-race couples are not popular in Palermo. Am really glad I don't speak Italian (although you could guess a lot of the words...)

    We decided to cut our visit short and head back to the safety of the holiday home...

    France is a breeze by comparison.

  52. Hey sheff.....well let's say things haven't changed that much......!!! Don't get me started.....

  53. thauma - bloody hell

    "Surely, no believer can vote Labour and walk with the Lord Jesus Christ."

    I'm only guessing, but I think the Lord's view of the BNP would not be positive.

    Interesting last para though - accounts fucked, PR (ha!) fucked, now website as well? If only they'd fall apart completely some time tonight, that would be nice...

  54. Right, things to do etc.

    Back tomorrow for the Election Results All-Nighter which I'm sure will occur...

  55. Yep, it's interesting that their new strategy seems to be "well, you Sikhs and West Indians are OK after all [for now] so let's unite against the evil Muslims!"

  56. Andy

    You,re right mate-i don,t know you so butt out and
    keep your patronising bollocks to yourself!!

  57. Well there's a turn up....

    I've had an email from the person in Afghanistan I gave my vote to and this is what they said:

    wish you save and sound life
    i would like to give my vote to Gordon Brown from labour party because
    of this condition:

    •They want to have peace talks with the Taliban mainstream and the
    full involvement of all the regional powers, from Pakistan to China.

    •NATO Afghan security forces will be increased to 300,000, with more
    soldiers helping to monitor the Afghan police

    •Gordon Brown visited Helmand and confirmed plans to send 150 new
    police and army trainers to train the ANP. The Americans have ploughed
    more than £4bn into the campaign to establish Afghanistan's first
    viable police force.

    •Want to help Pakistani security forces—they believe they cannot
    succeed in Afghanistan without helping Pakistan.

    •Have said that in the next five years Afghan forces would take full
    responsibility for physical security in all of the country's provinces

    So I guess I'm voting labour.

  58. Sheff
    really hope your Afghani friend is not let down. The people there face a very uncertain future - as do millions in Pakistan.

  59. Leni - stonking post above.

    Re the donkeys versus people thing. Yep it is strange how people so easily give money to animals over other human beings. I have a dog from the RSPCA and do give bits and bobs to them but the charity I support is a human one.

    I avoid some of the really big charities though like Oxfam and Barnados because of disturbing things I have heard - which may or may not be true but from Phillipas comments above probably are!

    I am very saddened by the events in Greece. This whole situation and mess is getting very scary. I have said for a long time on Cif that history shows us that - unlike what arrogant right wing fundies like styxdweller would have us believe - people generally do not shut up and take their medicine like good little proles.

    I have been laughed and sneered at by posters like him and the awful brownoutnow for saying that their hardline, armchair economist, offerings - if actually implemented would result in severe unrest and possibly as this thing slowly plays out - worse.

    Let us not forget that in the past when the world has faced such economic upheavals it has led us down a path to war.

    And if one more bigoted fucker comes onto one of the Greece threads with their lazy generalisations about the 'workshy corrupt Greeks' I will scream. These people are not just lacking in empathy but dangerously deluded to the possible outcomes of this pretty precarious situation. By idiotically pushing their neo liberal agenda they are edging us slowly towards more dangerous and uncertain times. The irony is that if those times do arrive - most of them will be just as buggered as us - unless they are seriously wealthy which I doubt most are.

  60. Interesting results from the worlds first cross border election

  61. Fer Kris sakes Paul put it down. I apologised, n binned the comment, you love you pain that much? Carry that hot coal of righteous fury around, keep it burning tight in your fist, then chuck it at me. i'll get a scorch. But look at your hands...

  62. Sheff - that reply you got is really touching. I really, really hope that we don't let them down.

  63. Leni

    I think they they have more faith than me sadly. Still, having signed up for it, I have to follow through.

  64. princess
    I really, really hope that we don't let them down.

    There does seem to be a real belief that we won't let them down - it's heartbreaking. The tragedy is we probably will but I will hang on to the fragment of hope I have left that we don't.

  65. Hw much of the old internationalist left survives?

  66. princess - didn't mean to put anyone off the bigger (people based) charities! They're actually less likely to get screwed by government because they have some heft, and are organised enough to know what's what.

    They take a lot of crap for spending on admin - there's even a website which 'names and shames' charities by their % 'governance costs'. Now, that's just bloody foolish - do you want a multi-million pound organisation being run on a budget done on the back of an envelope? there are legal requirements (ccompany and charity), audit requirements, accounts systems, IT, staffing...these all need paying for. plus fundraising - where costs are often front-loaded - people whinge about charities spending money to raise money. But how would you know they existed, what they're up to, what projects they need money for, without advertising?

    Sadly it's true - you have to spend money to make money. But every charity I've ever worked with has an acceptable level for this - a taarget 'recruitment rate' for donors and repeat donations. This stuff gets discussed for ages until they're sure they've got the right approach.

    Now, of course, a very high level of admin / fundraising costs (after the first couple of years) may indicate efficiency issues, but an acceptable level will depend on both the size and nature of the charity (you'd want better staff recruitment procedures for a charity working with children, for example).

    The 'name and shame' websites are just too simplistic. I think they put people off unnecessarily, and I have a nasty feeling that that may actually be what they are aiming for...

  67. Paul

    I don't think Andy is being patronising - just giving an opinion which doesn't seem unreasonable in the circs.

    Have recently emerged from watching the first series of The Wire where the 'n' word was flung about every second sentence, and felt quite shell shocked at it's prevalence, even in that context. Brilliant series btw. Have you seen it?

    Still, I would never use it - or cunt for that matter.

  68. princess

    Am staying off the Greece threads for the reasons you describe - infact only glancing at cif these days - it depresses me so much.

    I agree, the situation is scary - Spain and Portugal are not in a happy position either, not to mention rumblings in Bosnia and elsewhere in the Balkans.

  69. Phillipa - Oh that is what I had heard that they waste money on a lot of stuff. Ooh its such a minefield!

    I was a bit upset re the RSPCA stopping re-homing dogs and cats actually. But hey ho.

    Right off to walk my little adopted RSPCA beastie now. Oh the fun of walking a completely mad fox terrier.

  70. The Conservative Rotten Borough Bugle

    Keep 'em coming and keep me laughing Your Dukeness...there's very little else to laugh at these days. although there is going to be an alternative election night special on C4 tomorrow evening which might be one way to get through the night.

  71. Hello all again...

    Haven't had a chance to read through all the comments, but good news, my friend has changed his vote from Lib Dem to Labour (I went 'round his house and ruffed him up abit until he capitualted!!!)

    just been struggling with the shopping and me bike.... ressting for a min then reading...

  72. princess - I think the problem is that some elements like those websites see 'spending money' on anything other than direct work as 'wasting money'.

    Things have got better - the recommended accounts format used to be much looser - lots of project costs would be put in as 'support' or 'admin' if they weren't specific to one project. Now, these tend to be included in 'direct charitable expenditure' being split over the various projects they support.

    It's a bit like the NHS debate a couple of days back, and any office-based environment. There is 'client-facing' work (healing the sick, fixing the computer, having the meeting) but this is all shored up by admin / support, which is vital, and for charities, particular governance requirements to make sure they are in line with the law and their objects (and bear in mind trustees are unpaid, so no big non-exec boards!)

    Take Oxfam, for example (for whom I have never worked) - would you really want all their cost to be 'direct to beneficiary'? that would mean nobody managing the shops, nobody doing the accounts, nobody looking out for fraud, nobody doing the IT, nobody checking safety in region, nobody filling in the forms to get the stuff out there, nobody filling in the VAT/tax forms, nobody doing payroll...those are the costs in there as 'admin' or 'governance'. they are an international organisation, bringing in - and paying out - millions each year. It has to be well-managed. It's not a business, but it has to be business-like.

    If it weren't, that would be a reason not to give.

    Charity commission has guidance on how to assess what 'admin' costs % is reasonable (no cap as there are too many variables). Or, if you are ever worried about one, let me know, I can do some digging (in weaker moments, I miss the forensic side of my old job...).

  73. @sheff

    OOH selective intervention again i see.If you were
    a true socialist you,d have a much better grasp of
    the issues here.But you have form here don,t you
    Sheff-sticking your oar in and stirring the pot-
    so let,s just beg to differ eh!


    don,t flatter yourself mate.Yesterday was yesterday and if you want to use the word NIGGA then go right ahead.No skin off my nose!

  74. "...There is nothing wrong with becoming rich, except when it is a certain group of people, an elite, who is controlling it...."

    Bishop TuTu my friend that is very unfortunate sentence and an uncomfortably familiar sentiment which is being ascribed to you above.

    In my view there is no way on earth that you can become rich except by taking advantage of those weaker and less fortunate than ones self.

    PCC RSPCA stopped re-homing dogs?

  75. Hi Leni

    "Anybody relying on a job and regular salary to feed and clothe them is at risk - surely the aspirational middle classes can understand that"

    The trouble is, I don't think some of them do, I think they believe themselves genuinely impervious to this crisis.

    A good proportion of our contemporaries fit into that category and because it hasn't touched them yet, they act as if 'it's not going to happen to them'.

    But, I agree that it is a sweeping statement to lump a whole group of people together in one ideological perspective and I suspect that deep down, they are extremely concerned about the future. The problem is the knee-jerk reaction is to say 'I'm alright Jack' so if I vote Tory, I'll be paying lower taxes.

  76. @Paul, most gracious. And what has effected this sea change from the kicking I was promised last night?

  77. Paul

    Is your inner Mr Hyde on the prowl this evening?

    I don't understand why you're so angry with me and I'm certainly not 'stirring the pot'. If you put up comments people will respond to them. I think my comment was perfectly reasonable.

    As it happens I agree with you in principle about the use of the 'n' word. But there's room on the UT for people who think differently.

  78. @sheff

    No Sheff-Mr Hyde has already had his annual 'outing'
    for 2010 so you,re quite safe!And as i said let,s just
    beg to differ!

  79. Turminder;

    Just read about the 'caring, sharing' Tories in Hammersmith and Fulham....it's just too distressing to contemplate being that vulnerable and on the recieving end of those kind of draconian and barabric cuts.

    What is this? Visit Hammersmith and Fulham and re-live the 18th Century in all it's visceral glory? ("we use real people not actors") Good grief, I'm surprised they haven't opened a version of Bedlam so all the toffs can swing by with their stuck-up kids from Chalfont and Latimer School to poke fun of the mentally ill, chained to a wall swigging a 2 litre plastic bottle of White Ace.

    Please, please, I don't want those evil bastards in....

  80. La Rit
    I'm surprised they haven't opened a version of Bedlam

    Just give 'em time....

  81. Hello. Good evening. Etc.

  82. Sheff,

    Keep 'em coming and keep me laughing Your Dukeness...there's very little else to laugh at these days.

    aye aye, will do!

  83. DC with moustache and top hat, genius 13th!

    And the video here outlines tory health 'reforms' Tune.

  84. Gone quiet round here ..

    Everyone having a pre-election nght snooze?

  85. Turminderxuss

    Have just picked up your 18.32 post.And for the record
    i,m not being gracious at all.Let,s just say i,ve had
    a reality check as far as you are concerned.So as with
    Sheff,Andy and anyone else who can,t grasp the issues
    here i,m happy to beg to differ.Just so we understand
    each other!

  86. MsChin

    Hi - Still here - very quiet tonight.

  87. Just been watching the news MsC - there's a spooky version of Midsomer Murders on tonight, perhaps that's where everyones gone. According to the graun its a classic if you're into that sort of thing.

  88. Paul

    Just so we're clear - what are these issues we're not grasping?

  89. Lols tonight, very funny comments. I am slighly tipsy (but still largely in control of my mental faculties) so I will not post anything too inflammatory tonight.

    I've had an idea, Jeremy Kyle with Donkeys. The guests on the JK show would get a donkey.

    Actually a serious point. I was a day patient in a psychiatric hospital when I was 18, as part of the daytime activites they got someone to bring a dog into the ward. This really had a positive impact on peeople. Maybe if we gave our feckless youth the reaponaibility of a donkey they would be more kind and get refromed quicker.

  90. Nap

    Are you used to drinking ? Take care there.

    Dogge doesn't have a reforming influence on me - and I'm sure youv'e heard about Mungo !

  91. sheff (and Philippa, if you're around)

    Distracted myself by reading the mad as bats woman #2 thread, and doing some googling about the New Frontiers Xian mission.

    Seems thay had a few problems with an article published in their magazine, judging by this:

    "EDITOR’S NOTE: Christianity Today apologizes for our rash decision in publishing Paul Apostle’s exposé of the Galatian church. Had we known the extent in which our readership and advertisers would withdraw their financial support, we never would have printed such unpopular biblical truth. We regret any damage we may have caused in propagating the doctrines of Christ".

    Like the ambiguous phrasing there.

    And Philippa, to save you the trouble, there's a link to their annual accounts for 2008 are at the bottom of the page here.

  92. Well, it's good night from me.

    If indeed there's anyone there (the visitor count thingy has disappeared so have little to go on).

    Be back tomorrow for (some of) the party. Hope you all have your bingo pens sharpened at the ready.

  93. 'nite MsC - that New Frontiers thing is bonkers.

    I was watching a documentary the other night where scientists were shooting apart some Xtian's attempts to prove the Biblical account of the flood/Noah's Ark story was factually accurate. Fascinating.

  94. Bon soir everyone. Is it too early for the night shift?
    Leni: you mentioned doing some drama work with kids. I studied drama at the University of Northumbria where the ethos pivoted around (I really hate this phrase)"Theatre In The Community"
    What struck me was the number of occasions I came across "projects" to work with "delinquent" youths and help them to work through their difficulties using dramatic techniques.
    Of course funding was always a crucial issue but if you managed that "hoop jumping" process the end results were more often than not very positive and satisfying for all involved.
    I prefer a bit of logic when I'm trying to make sense of something, so I thought, well we already have the institutions to teach kids drama:they are called schools! So,why not put Drama on the National Curriculum and sort out the cause rather than treating the symptoms?
    One of the things I learned at University is that politicians don't do logic and as far as they are concerned ethics is a county in the
    South West of England.

  95. Hi folks. I've put a piece up on Untrustedtoo. It's just a direct translation of an article I read in my local paper yesterday. But given that there's an election in the UK, there has been a very sporadic discussion on immigration here lately (too hot to handle for well-meaning liberals I suppose), and terrible allegations of racism and hand-wringing about the burqua in Greece and Italy, it seems quite topical and relevant. (It doesn't unfortunately address the really serious issue of animal charities and donkeys - sorry about that.) I hope it might interest some people anyway. Please comment - especially Napoleon, whose recent proclamations on immigrants annoyed me immensely.

    FYI, it's the story of the first female 'immigrant' MP in Denmark (socialist of course, and the system here is not FPTP - she would never have been elected otherwise). I found the article quite inspiring and uplifting, and it seems to me that it raises a lot of questions. Have a look.

  96. Paddy, nigger, paki, prod, taig, lezzer, honky etc - we've got them all here, haven't we? I'm sooo offended. I didn't expect this sort of abuse!

    btw, Paul - your mum's Irish isn't she? What's worse for you - being called a nigger or a paddy? I don't have a choice - I'm just a paddy, taig, bog-trotter etc. Do you feel my pain? Still, it could be worse - we could be Scottish, like turminder.

  97. Chekhov

    Hi - thought everyone had gone to bed.

    Drama with kids - always fun - if not dominated by the amateur dramatics type kids who go to stage school with pushy mums. That's a bit sweeping but perhaps you understand.

    The boys I worked with were classified as maladjusted - fairly meaningless phraseology - fundamentally intelligent boys excluded from school - sent to us - residential school.

    Improvisation and games types approach was popular - many liked to act out as heros from tv progs for example but almost all were willing to tackle serious drama once they got the cut of the characters. Some came to understand the one dimensional nature of popular tv characters - as well as celebs - that in itself made it worthwhile.

    I would like to see the end of the seperation of popular and 'high'culture - very damaging. Both have their value .

    Myth was popular - not just heroes . Characters such as giants were very revealing - particularly when unscripted as they could decide what they did with power.

    there are successful community drama groups - if you can put a package together there is some grant funding tho things are tightening up now.

  98. TurminderXuss

    Have just been informed that you are Black as well.
    WTF didn,t you say man?I apologise unreservedly
    for all my posts to you over this matter.If you,re
    Black and you want to say NIGGA then fair enough!
    I hate the term mind-even from other Black people!

  99. @Montana

    Nice one Montana !!!

  100. chekhov

    A very lazy - but I hope not offensive - way of writing Christian. My Christian friends use it.

  101. Turminder

    And btw if you really are Black then you of all people
    should know that white people saying NIGGA is a NO NO You should also be aware of how many Black people hate the way some Black kids are using the term as well.

    When you responded to my post yesterday WHY didn,t
    you tell me?FFS

  102. Montana

    Really thought so much better of you Montana.You
    saw i was responding to Turminder,s post on Cif.
    And the thing is i,ve always defended and supported
    you on Cif.And where in my post on Cif to Turminder
    was i attacking UT?

  103. Sherfig

    Like your article - it contains a fundamental truth - several actually.

    Burquas , immigrants - both are cases of symbols being attacked, people dehumanised - both are distractions from our failure to fully relate to each other.

  104. Hi Leni: thanks for replying. I did get your drift about pushy Mums and amateur dramatics.
    With regard to the improv stuff, a lot of people think they have to aspire to the level of "Whose Line Is It Anyway" and be smart and funny but the improvisation technique along with "hot seating" was not designed as a spectator sport. Both were a way of creating a "back story" for the benefit of the actors.
    I wrote my dissertation on acting styles,(Stanislavsky v Brecht). I'll try and dig it out if you are interested.

  105. Montana

    I don,t know if you noticed but i left a post for
    you on Cif congratulating you for the stand you
    took on waddya against racism.Oh my days Montana
    you really must have an extremely low opinion of
    me.And i feel so fucking stupid.

    So you knew Turminder was Black all along so you announce it on Cif as a means of getting at me.And
    all i did was respond to a post that Turminder had
    left on Cif.Like Turminder you have dragged Habib
    into this as well.The three Black guys on UT.And
    like Turminder-who i thought was White-you raise
    my one-off car crash moment on UT ON Cif.

    Thing is Montana after my car crash moment on UT
    -and i explained the circumstances-i did everything
    to put it right.And you left a post to me saying
    -;you don,t owe me an apology Paul-.Habib says he,s
    cool with me and now it,s all been thrown back in
    my face-ON FUCKING CIF.

    Have you got the same level of self awareness as me
    to admit you were wrong tonight Montana?i,m painfully
    aware of my faults Montana.Do you acknowledge yours?

  106. chekhov

    Montana has my email.

    I did a course which included a lot of role play. some people thought up a story which they pursued with no thought to character or personality - the most successful and therefore revealing were those wh drew upon parts of themself - often bits they thought they had forgotten about or concealed.

    People often forget the roots of drama - more than 'story telling' .

    The drama of politics is engaging half the nation just now - wonder how many people question the 'reality' of it all ?

  107. Paul

    What to say without upsetting or angering you further ? Probably would be best to say nothing perhaps.

    Back in the 80s I was looking for a vietnamese friend - I had news of his son lost when they fled Vietnam. I had found him via UNHCR. My friend was playing Sax at a local club. I don't know London - it was dark and a bit scary. The club was under some railway arches. Relief when I found it. Big notice on door saying 'No Whites @

    I went in anyway - everything stopped. When they heard my news they welcomed me !
    Left a very nasty taste.

  108. Paul, you're a laugh a fuckin' minute, mate. Ever heard a black guy and an Irish guy singing together (and I don't mean Phil Lynott)? Lighten up, you're behaving like a dick, and not for the first time. Still, why should I care?

    I cover the waterfront

  109. Well, now it comes out. I could use the Sacha Baron Cohen defence, "he's not black,he's jewish" but I am neither. I look white, I am anglo indian. I have suffered racist abuse, and have left all that shite behind me. I know that the N word is verboten. That's why it's funny to drop it, as many comedians do, mostly, but not all,(!) black.

    I told the truth yesterday, i have been called nigger, white-nigger, paki shit and all the rest. And when DJing in hip-hop clubs, i've been lauded with "tune nigga!" and, "you my nigga!" (specifically, but not exclusively by Craig Charles, but that's no recommendation!) etc.

    So yest, on the way to the bar, i dropped the n word. You don't know me and I don't know you, but the assumptions lead to all the acrimony and fall out. And well, i was a bit miffed as you used the word Paki repeatedly and derogatorily towards a fellow UTer, i say what I said, clearly insulting no one, a risque high five, and get, "how fucking dare you!" The love in the clubs and the spit in my face that's how i dare Paul.

    How dare you be lord and high decider on who say's what? No really I'd like to know?

  110. Leni: I am a carpenter by trade (I "moonlight" as an actor!)I once had this conversation on a building site:
    Geordie: "So, you're one of them "luvvies" then. Aren't you interested in football? Don't understand all this drama crap.
    Me: You don't do drama then?
    Geordie: No, it's a load of bollocks.
    Me: Will you be at St James' Park on Saturday?
    Geordie: Of course I will.
    Me:So you do drama after all then?
    Geordie: (gives a puzzled blank stare and goes back to reading the Daily Sport!)

  111. St James Park isn't drama Chekov.

    It's tragedy. ;)

  112. Re Craig Charles - I knew him in London back in the 80's before his various 'problems' with rape and crack. He was a total cunt then, and I dare say he's a still a total cunt now.

  113. @scherfig-if that were true then that would give you
    and me something in common.I did behave like a dick
    once before and i acknowledge that.However methinks
    it,s been more than once for you with your irregular
    visits and sniping at people here.

  114. Off to bed. Let me know about the kicking Paul, and the Eskimo's and the hate and all that...

  115. jenifer30: "James' Park isn't a drama.... it's a tragedy"
    I thought a tragedy was drama! At least Bill Shakespeare thought it was! I'm with Bill on this one!

  116. You are right Checkov I actually meant comedy rather than tragedy.

    Sorry I'm a bitter and twisted Boro fan.

  117. Jenni

    i didn't realise you are another northerner.

    If you are a football fan you are part of the drama.

  118. Very true, Paul. Just trying to keep people here reasonably honest (futile task). Have you looked at UT2 yet? I'd be interested in your comment on the article I posted (as a nigger or a paddy or a second generation immigrant or whatever it is that you don't want other people to call you because it upsets you).

    btw, in case you don't know, I was a founding member here, about a year before you ever turned up. So I allow myself the luxury of 'irregular visits', and I like sniping at idiots. Deal with it.





  120. @scherfig

    TO YOU.

  121. jenifera30: Bill wrote comedies too. They are all "Drama"!

  122. Stop being pedantic Chekov ;)

  123. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8663681.stm

    BNP out on the campaign trail !


    sorry posted this in error on your UT2 post.

  124. Paul, easy on the capital letters! Who ever said I was a 'right on left wing activist'?
    Anyway, let me patronise you a little, and try to be helpful. It seems to me that you have some problems. It might be a good idea to stop posting here for a while. I'm not trying to silence you, and it won't make any difference to me whether you do or you don't (as you say, I only post here irregularly anyway.) It's only a bit of friendly advice. Take care, my friend.

    Hi, Bitey - back in the ballgame again, I see. You just can't let it go, can you? You sad fucker. You should read the UT2 article I posted - perhaps satireveritas could contribute something meaningful about women in politics. Perhaps you could compare Özlem Cekic's acheivements with Caroline Flint's? That would be fun.

  125. jenifera30: football allegiences are essentially tribal but there's no need to get "bitter and twisted" about supporting the Boro. I support and follow the fortunes of Sheffield United and God knows what strife that has caused me over so many years but I just put it into perspective and realise that I'm getting worked up over something which is really inconsequential.

  126. Ha ha, Leni. Don't worry, maybe I'll pass it on to Özlem. She might be interested :0)

  127. Paul:

    When you had your "car crash moment", you were quickly forgiven and asked to stay. Even by Habib, who was indeed hurt by your repeated use of the work "Paki" that night. He prefers to see and think the best of people. He prefers to ignore his own pain for the sake of getting along with others.

    Turminder apologised to you yesterday. Did you miss it or are you choosing to ignore it? Here is what he said, as soon as he got back and found that you'd been hurt by the term:

    turminderxuss said...
    Ooh, the n-bomb. wondered about that as i hit post.. And well, sorry if it caused you pain Paul, probably no more than the wince I got when you thought Paki was acceptable, but I wouldn't want to deny your hurt. It was meant in the 'friendly/inclusive/reclaiming' sense, but if you invest so much in what is just a word, well, I'll bin the comment. And yes, in the racist, spit in your face (literally) sense it has been used against me.
    04 May, 2010 22:28

    I said nothing yesterday, because by the time I got home from work and read the thread, the original comment had been deleted and the apology had been made. I saw no reason for me to comment.

    No one group holds a monopoly on victimhood. I absolutely do not condone the use of any epithets aimed at entire groups of people for things that are not a matter of personal choice.

    However, I'm not so white and middle aged that I don't know that the word "nigga" (always with the 'a' on the end, and not with 'er') is used amongst black and hispanic kids here in the US as a term of affection/acceptance. Knowing Turminder (and I have been 'acquainted' with him far longer than I have you), I have no doubt that he meant no offence by it.

    Stop taking offence where none is meant. Be mature enough to forgive others in equal measure to the way you were forgiven.

  128. jenifera30: You said that the shananigans going on at St James' Park weren't a drama.
    I wasn't being pedantic at all and I disagree: the on going saga at Newcastle United is a drama, as indeed is the on going saga at the Boro.

  129. @scherfig

    I only used capital letters because you strike me as
    someone who is a bit SLOW.So i was trying to be
    helpful.The fact is my friend that living in Denmark
    with it,s emphasis on welfarism-whilst your poor ole
    mum and dad are starving here in blighty-you clearly
    know jack shit about anything.You,re a wanker mate,
    nothing more and nothing less.

    btw-I got horrendous problems which i,m dealing with
    as best i can.Life in blighty and life in Denmark
    don,t compare.You,re what is called an armchair
    socialist.Now be a good lad and go to bed.And if
    you wake up on a damp patch don,t worry-just buy
    a rubber sheet with your generous benefit cheque.

  130. Chekov

    Do you know what, the older I get the more I agree with your position, I will always be a bit tribal when it comes to football (politics too) but I do realise now that it is a distraction from real life rather than life itself.

    God that sounds sad but I used to be a rabid Boro supporter and I hated Newcastle and Sunderland more than either the Tories or the Pope (I was a catholic schoolgirl I am allowed to hate the pope).

    Getting older means letting go of a lot of lifes stupid baggage and trying to learn (at least it has for me).

    I have found my committment to Labour as hard to shake off as my Catholic upbringing but not as hard as my Boro love.

  131. @Montana

    Get over yourself darling.I,m not a victim and after
    your comments on waddya tonight vis a vis racism you
    just don,t see how much you,re contradicting yourself.

    I have my moments-guilty as charged-but on balance
    i like who i am.And yes i respect people on UT who forgave me my car crash moment.However quoting HABIB-again-doesn,t do you any favours.How do you know he wasso HURT-i apologised to him straight away ffs.And i
    was using PAKI more in the context of how White people
    refer to Asian/Arab people.To be honest with you i,m not ioo% sure what i said to anyone so if you,ve chosen to keep a record of my UT car crash moment then
    enlighten me.

    Notice you don,t take any responsibility for anything
    that,s happened tonight Montana.Difference between
    you and me eh.

  132. OK Paul, it seems to me that you need this place to vent your ill-informed and frankly bizarre world-view, and to brandish the huge chip on your shoulder. Fair enough, but it bores everybody else. I was somewhat amused (but not surprised )by the mass forgiveness that everybody rushed to exhibit the last time you flew off the handle, and called decent people pakis and idiots and cunts and just about everything else your tiny intellect could summon up. No matter.

    But just for the record, I'm not a bit SLOW, my dad is dead, my mum isn't starving, I'm not an armchair socialist, I'm not a wanker, and I don't get benefit cheques. But you know nothing about me, and I'm not going to justify myself to a prick like you.

    And also for the record, you are a totally obnoxious, ignorant bigoted arsehole. So you can add this discrimination to the pile of self-idulgent crap you carry around on your shoulder, you paddy-nigger fuck.

  133. @scherfig

    OOH hit a nerve there didn,t i love.!On your last visit
    you said MUMMY AND DADDY were still here in Blighty.
    So i am genuinely sorry if DADDY has died since then.

    Paddy-nigger fuck eh! He He He He He.!!!!!

    Sorry mate i had my ONE-OFF car crash moment on UT
    and nothing a FUCKWIT like you says is gonna phase
    me.Now i told you be a good lad and go to bed.And
    no wanking eh!

  134. Paul:

    I know that it hurt Habib because Habib and I communicate privately every day. His forgiveness was genuine, but so was his pain.

    What responsibility do I bear that I'm not owning up to? I don't think I've said anything to you that it is out of order. Nothing that I have said to you, here or on WDYWTTA, was intended to hurt or embarrass you. Would you care to tell me what you think I need to own up to?

  135. Montana

    If i hurt Habib IN THAT ONE-OFF car crash then i,m
    genuinely sorry cos i like the guy.But please don,t
    insult my intelligence by playing 'Little Miss
    Innocent here'.You were bang out of order tonight
    on a number of different levels and if you can,t
    see that then nothing i say will change that.As
    i said before the difference between you and me
    Montana is that i acknowledge my faults.Other than
    that one off car crash what the fuck did i ever do
    that justifies your behavior tonight?

  136. Paul, you don't have the wit to hit a nerve with me. (btw my father died in 1986.)
    I really think that you should seek psychiatric help - posting here is not doing you any good. And people here should not facilitate your self-destructive behaviour which seems to ratchet up the more attention you get. That being said, I will not be engaging with you any more. I hope you get the help you need.

  137. @scherfig-go to bed mate.You,re making a prat of
    yourself.Trust me i had my 'UT moment' so i know
    about these things.And whether you 'engage' with
    me anymore is neither here nor there to me.Nite!

  138. jenifera30: every thing is a drama: "All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players: they have their exists and their entrances and one man in his time plays many parts: his acts being seven ages:at first the infant mewling and puking in the nurses arms; then the whining school boy with his satchel and shining morning face, creeping like a snail unwillignly to school; then the lover sighing like a furnace, with a woeful ballad mad to his mistress' eyebrow.Then the soldier, full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, jealous in honour,sudden and quick in quarrel. speaking the bubble reputation even in the cannons mouth. And then the justice;
    In fair round belly eith good capon lin'd,
    with eyes severe an beard of formal cut.
    full of wise saws and instances:
    And so he plays his part.
    The sixth age shifts into the lean and slipperd pantaloon,
    with specatcles on nose and pouch on side,
    his youthful hose well saved, a world too widen for his shrunk shank:
    and his big manly voice
    turning again toward treble pipes and whistles in his sound.
    Last scane of all that ends this strange eventful history is second childishness and mere oblivion.
    Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans every thing. " (Jaques. As You Like It)
    I think Bill nailed that pretty good!

  139. Paul,

    People only say "if you can,t
    see that then nothing i say will change that"
    when they can't actually support their assertions. If you truly believe that I have been out of order, you need to make your case. If I can see your point, I will be perfectly happy to apologise to you.

    Take a deep breath and calm yourself down. You are making scattershot accusations and ad hominem attacks at people who have done nothing to deserve it.

  140. '@scherfig-go to bed mate.You,re making a prat of

    I think we should let others be the judge of that, rather than you.
    nite, Paul. Get some help.

  141. Chekhov

    I was going to quote 'All the world's a stage ...'

    Habib is a Shakespeare man - often quoted him on waddya.

    I wonder how many people realise how much of the language they use on a daily basis they owe to Will?

  142. @Montana

    My dear lady i am totally calm.No deep breaths are
    necessary -not from me anyway.Like SCHERFIG you
    need to lie down and get some rest.This 'paddy-nigger'
    as i,ve charmingly been called is no saint but he has
    principles.So let me refresh your memory-


  143. That's it??? I told you on WDYWTTA that I would respond to you here? That amounts to being "bang out of order tonight
    on a number of different levels" in your book? You need to get some perspective, Paul. Fucking hell.

    For your information, the reason I told you that I would reply to you here was because this whole argument belongs here rather than on Cif. There are quite a few Ciffers who are sick to death of reading about the UT on Cif. They don't read the UT and they don't want to read about it over there. Wasn't trying to minimise any embarrassment to myself (I'm not embarrassed by this) and wasn't trying to make you look bad in any way. I was just trying to spare Ciffers who are uninterested in the UT from having to slog past further discussion of what I firmly believe is a UT matter.

    Turminder mentioned yesterday's incident in a perfectly legitimate way this morning. In light of my response to JohnYardDog about the Confederate flag, he questioned whether there are words and symbols that should be banned. He said that he "incautiously used the N word (somewhere else), and caused some offense".

    You took him to task, claiming that he couldn't understand how offensive the word was because he's white. To refresh your memory, this was my reply:

    Erm, Paul. TurminderXuss isn't white. And neither he nor Heyhabib kicked up much of a fuss when you threw out the word "Paki" recently. Perhaps you might want to dial back the outrage?

    I thought perhaps that by reminding you that you yourself had used a racial epithet fairly recently and that both Turminder and Habib were hurt by it, you might realise how hypocritical you were being by continuing your outrage about something for which you had received a prompt apology, even though you had been forgiven quickly when you did the same thing.

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  147. Paul: Calm down, stop wasting bandwidth. Goodbye.

  148. Montana

    You really don,t want to take any responsibility for
    what happened tonight do you?

    Let me remind you -Turminder posts on WADDYA and i respond to that post.Neither of us mention UT but
    you decide to make a post at 11.12PM drawing attention
    to everyone on CIF about this whole sorry business.

    You really do need to grow up and have the maturity
    to acknowledge you were wrong.

    Additionally you,ve driven a wedge between me and
    Habib by blabbing about so called private e-mails
    between you and him.I thought me and HABIB were
    cool and certainly his post on this episode clearly
    shows he didn,t want to take sides.But you and your
    big cyber gob Montana!

    Forget about the rights and wrongs oF what happened
    on UT.It is you-and only you-that inflamed the
    situation with your 11.12pm post on WADDYA.

  149. medve

    I.m actually at work and i,m very calm.The three
    deleted posts were miscalculations on my part.
    Go back to sleep mate.You sound like one of
    Montana,s Stepford Wives!

  150. BTW medeve

    I was actually responding to a post Montana made
    earlier to me.Made a cock up of the 3 earlier,
    Pressure of work etc.This isn,t part of an all-night
    rant on my part.More of a two-way conversation
    between me and Momtana.Sure Montana will be touched
    by your loyalty though!

  151. I'm pretty sure that Habib will understand why I mentioned him and will not feel that I have betrayed his confidence in any way.

    As I said earlier, had I done anything wrong, I would have apologised to you. Telling you on WDY that I would reply to you here wasn't in any way inappropriate and I'd be extremely surprised if anyone but you feels that it was.

    This is the last comment I'm going to make on the matter. You have wasted far too much of my time already.

  152. @Montana

    You are funny.You deserve an Oscar for that.You made
    a post at 11.12pm drawing attention to CIF what was
    UT business.Neither me nor turminder mentioned UT.And
    I was responding to Turminders post.You really do
    take the biscuit Montana.

    Yes Habib will probably forgive you cos he seems like
    a nice bloke.And i,m sure some people on UT will rally
    to your cause.Fine by me !Just so you know two of my
    colleagues -both Black women- have been following this
    thread and are absolutley gobsmacked by your attitude.
    And if anyone has wasted time it,s you love!Both
    Turminders and my posts have stood on Cif.It was your
    intervention that inflamed the situation so grow up
    and deal with it.

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