20 May 2010


The First Council of Nicea convened in 325.  King Sancho IV of Castile founded the Estudio de Escuelas Generales de Alcalá, now known as the Universidad Complutense, in 1293.  XWA in Montreal began the first regularly scheduled radio programming in North America in 1920.

Born today:  Honoré de Balzac (1799-1850), John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), Sigrid Undset (1882-1949),Jimmy Stewart (1908-1997), Sadaharo Oh (1940), Joe Cocker (1944), Cher (1946), Louis Theroux (1970), Iker Casillas (1981), and Peter Cech (1982)

It is Independence Day in East Timor.


  1. Yay, go on, Diane Abbot! But will her cuddlin with Portaloo, M. scupper her hopes?

  2. I've always found Abbott pretty vacuuous and staunchly of the centre right. Ideal New Labour but not what this country needs going forward.

  3. "staunchly of the centre right." Which means she stands a chance in the country, although mebee not with the party, dunno about the PLP, don't think she's popular there, prob just a profile raising exercise for her.

    You here Ruth Kelly landed a job at HSBC? Sick Making. & Lembet Opik is going to do stand up.. Don't make me laugh!

  4. You hear. (Not 'you here') twunt

    : )

  5. The Seumas Milne thread has made me realise how much ignorance and misinformation there is out there about the TU movement.

    All these people who are SO proud of being shafted by management (ain't they macho!). After all you have to 'just 'get on with it'.

    They are being told they are better than those wimps who go on strike.

    Like the white folks in the Southern states who were dirt poor but were 'better than the blacks'!


    This is what happens when the left starts to believe in the right propaganda about being 'unelectable' and 'left wing dinasaurs'. You make the argument, you convince people THATS how (eventually) you become electable.

    But sometimes it does feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall!

    It occurs to me that that is what sites like this can do - we can encourage each other to go on fighting!

  6. annetan,

    I haven't had a look at that thread, but can I have a go at making a "CiF Union thread" checklist and see how close I am?

    - Bluster about Unite not following the draconian guidelines to the letter. Followed by "Therefore it's not BA that's let the workers down it's the Union".

    - "How much do Union leaders make eh?"

    - "No one likes Unions, because everyone remember them in the 70's".

    - Milne referred to as a Stalinist/Trotskyite entryist/member of Baader Meinhof and Red Brigades/1919 Spartacist/Bolshevik Dinosaur

    - "I've never joined a Union and I'm not exploited".

    - Staunch defence of the Judge and the ludicrous technicalities.

    - "The law is the law. Fuck the workers!"

    Am I close?

    We should have a 'blind guess the CiF BTL shite' competition.

  7. Your Grace,

    Nothing to disagree with, but may I also add the wildcard:

    "They already have it better than the EasyJet staff" argument?

    (also haven't read the thread)

  8. "Unions have brought this country to it's knees."

    Mornin' all. Tastey fight on here last night. Shame I missed it. The least I could have done was turn up for it, knowing that I was on the billing and all.

    Two men in Malawi get sentenced today, for being gay.

  9. That should be the beginning of a joke, but it really isn't.

  10. Morning All.

    Your Grice:

    Re: your piece yesterday about what i used to call de Partij van de Oorlog. My paternal grandfather (born 1902) was a life-long socialist. During the nazi occupation he not only listened to the BBC (mortally dangerous), but also read the Volkischer Beobachter (to keep a "perspective").

    I agree with your analysis of their "mission statement", but remain somewhat sceptical. Den Uyl was the last great PvdA prime minister, Kok was a salesman to the neo-libs. Groen Links was promising at the time, but they also sold out. If i were to be in NL i might vote SP.

  11. Mr Scorpio, in your rather intemperate mode last evening you posted:

    "I don't get to delete posts which paint me in a bad light."

    Well just to give you something to cheer you up here's what I said about you on CiF on New Years Day 2009, long before many of the posters here began to post there. And I speak as someone whose been posting for almost four years:

    "HankScorpio welcome back although if I'd missed you I'd have assumed it was for Xmas reasons.

    "You and others are right about the moderation policy - if what appears to be giving moderators a free hand, can be described as a policy."

    You see apart from your desperate desire to play Sir Chivalry every so often, despite being even more abusive to your fellow Untrusteds than you ever are about me, you seem to want to deny to others the freedom of speech and expression you claim for yourself. And while I would never and have never resorted to the kind of foul language that comes as a matter of course in your posts, in all other respects, on the matter of free speech, we hold very similar views.

  12. Bitey, old fruit, be a good chap and troddle off.

  13. Bitey,


    "here's what I said about you on CiF on New Years Day 2009"

    ""fellow Untrusteds""

    The UT wasn't started until February 2009, sometime after New Years Day, are you sure you've got your facts straight?

    (And have I just out archived the archivist? Oh b*llocks, time for a lie down and a vodka*)

    *Don't worry I have no teenage sons to be a bad influence on, I shall be very careful my teenage godson never finds out

  14. medve,

    good analysis of the PvDA especially Kok, (apt name...)

    I think they showed a great deal of integrity though over refusing to agree to an extension of the Afghanistan mission which has led to this election. Like yourself, I'll mst probably vote SP or possibly D66.

    I was going to vote the Animal party until I found out that it wasn't the drummer from the Muppets own Dutch political crusade. Bitterly disappointing.

  15. Ok, my bad, I missed some quotes (or lack of them)

    Phew, Bitey's record is secure, and I don't need to put any nearby teenagers at risk!

  16. Piss off Bitey - I don't have to justify my absence to anyone, much less a spiteful ex-pat holed up in China with a fixation on me.

    Morning everyone else. BB in disguise again (don't ask - it has to do with work accounts)

    Had stuck all my work on the server on Netstor as I didn't want it to be compromised by nosey repair-persons, but now having a hell of a job transferring it back onto here again. It's taking bloody ages... grrr...

    Anyone got any other bright ideas about secure virtual storeplaces for files?

    Hank - your post about Gary Glitter was up and running when I just checked it out, as well as a good few other of your posts. Maybe you were just in the UT black hole for a while, as sometimes happens. I had a whole evening of that a while ago before I sussed it. Try clearing your caches and cookies and you should be able to see them.

  17. LOL - excuse me for wanting to share this excellent conversation with my teen, but he really makes me laugh at times.

    Son:"Trainspotting's a really good film"

    Mum:"Yes it is,and I hope it has taught you a lesson"

    Son: "Yes, it's taught me that if ever I am walking over a London bridge, Born Slippy will start playing in the background and I will start to think about life..."

  18. Well, the Court of Appeal has found in favour of Unite ("the essence of the ballot was fair").

    Maybe the law is slightly less of an ass this morning.

  19. Morning all

    Diane Abbott has no chance of succeeding in her quest
    to become Labour Leader.She,s rude,arrogant and too
    quick to play the 'race card' to justify her own
    hypocrisy.And this idea that she somehow represents
    the Left is a joke.

    @BB-subterfuge ain,t your strong point :-)

    @James Dixon-That Hoary Fox Cheese thing was a lame
    attempt at a joke on my part.FFS don,t go into a shop
    and ask for it.

  20. Swifty

    In the injunction case, the High Court judge seems to have forgotten a key principle - and I didn't read the case so I am talking off the top of my head here - and that is whether the breach in the rules was material or not, and should have applied the de minimis principle. In other words, yep there was a breach of the procedural rules but it made not a jot of bloody difference to the outcome of the ballot. I have no doubt that the CA found that it was utterly immaterial to the outcome and, thus, ruled in their favour for that reason.

  21. Paul

    LOL - was it the "piss off Bitey" bit that gave the game away? :p

  22. @BB:

    Quite. De minimis non curat lex and all that. Always liked that principle, myself.

    Are some of these High Court judges even schooled in the law these days? Or do the powers-that-be just trawl various gentlemen's clubs in Mayfair looking for someone suitably rotund and florid of complexion?

  23. BB

    LOL - was it the "piss off Bitey" bit that gave the game away? :p

    No your posts just ooze that inimitable BB style-in
    a good way !

  24. BB

    Was going to say that even if you logged in as Atilla
    the Hun the BBness of your posts would still shine

  25. Swifty

    Not as bad as they used to be! There is a chap who is in charge of one or two of the mags courts not so far away from you who used to work as a clerk to the High Court and he tells tales of 20 years ago that would make your hair curl of judges who not only didn't understand the law but who would deliberately mis-rule out of spite because they didn't like a particular advocate or party to a case.

    I would like to think that they are not like that these days but I can't help thinking - particularly in the BA-type cases - that a lot of political pressure behind the scenes is brought to bear, or that the case somehow finds its way to a "friendly" judge...

  26. BB

    Anyone got any other bright ideas about secure virtual storeplaces for files?

    Buy an external hard disc, save your data to that, and lock it in a safe. Not forgetting to use a decent scrubbing programme after you've deleted the data off the puter, although any hacker worth the name would be able to restore it anyway!

  27. Paul

    Heh - I am pretty much WYSIWYG. Despite what others may think, there is little artifice about me, like it or lump it. :o)

  28. I've just noticed the word 'virtual' in the bit I quoted ... never mind!

  29. Good thinking, Thaum - cheers for that. I am mostly worried about what happens when it goes in for repair etc, rather than anyone hacking into it. I can't think that any of my cases are high profile enough that anyone would be interested enough to see my files, but I have to make sure there is no inadvertant breach of confidentiality, as it were.

    But you are probably right - I should store it all remotely. If ever my netbook got nicked, it wouldn't take Einstein to be able to get into the files...

  30. Hmmm.. according to the coalition document in the immigration bit, they say they are "backing e-borders and will reintroduce exit controls".

    Well the latter bit is good, but I hope that doesn't mean maintaining the fully-fledged e-borders policy for UK citizens. I don't see why they have to know where I am going next week or for how long. Freedom of movement eh... pah.

  31. Oh. My. God.

    They have got Michael Mansfield writing on CiF.


  32. Psst BB, I know where there's a very leaky European border, if the revolution never comes I'll get you out...

  33. @BB - shame it's not a better piece by Mansfield, though. I'm not sure that the Royal Navy starting a war with Israel would do much to take us much further forward. And have you read the Russell Tribunal thing, in part created by that loon Cynthia McKinney?

    Seconded on the external hard disk, though, with an automated backup so you don't have to remember to do it. They're dirt cheap these days.

  34. PeterJ

    True - I couldn't even bring myself to comment on it, much as I lust after him.

    He still has this hint of wide-eyed naivete about him that makes me go weak at the knees - as is demonstrated in his current missive. But he is bloody good at his job (probably because he is a tad naive and unworldly and, thus, doesn't allow personal prejudices to get in the way of what he is doing.)

  35. @annetan42

    Your post struck a chord with me.And yes UT may not
    come up with all the answers but it can help stop
    users giving up.And sadly it is easy to take what
    seems the easy option nowadays by rolling over,
    keeping your head down and basically putting up with
    being 'shafted'.

  36. And 'Speakyou'rebranes' comment of the day today goes to the ever reliable 'Breaking3' on the abortion thread:

    I can understand a woman making one or two mistakes and having an abortion before 16 weeks, but women who use abortion as an alternative to contraception should be offered a sterilisation, they are a drain on the NHS they also devalue life and men who think they can bed hop leaving a trail of dead foetuses behind them need to face up to their responsibilities.

    Wonderful stuff. However it only gets a 'branes' score of 9.8 out of 10 as there was a slight lapse in technical merit with the failure to point out that abortion is "Old Mother Brown's" fault.

  37. Duke

    Suppose it,s only a matter of time before the celestial
    ETOILES appears on that thread comes out with something
    similar and then disappears again to the'heavens above'.

  38. Your Grace

    These days, there is seriously hefty competition for the "Branes Daily Award" - I would wait until at least 6pm before declaring a winner, although she is a great contender.

    I am stunned at the anti-unionist bile that is being spouted on the BA-Unity threads at the moment...

  39. Paul,

    for keen 'braner' fans such as us, I hate to tell you that etoiles as far as I know has been crucified.

    He was betrayed to the Guardian authorities. 'Modtius Pilate' washed his hands and sealed etoiles fate. However remember,

    etoiles has died
    etoiles will have risen
    etoiles will be spraying his religious fuelled bigotry all over cif again.

    BB, meant to say, nice to have you back.

  40. Cheers, your grace

    Nice to be back. :o)

  41. Etoils is the 'ex hardcore porn addict'?

    Bet he still types one handed tho...

  42. turminderxuss

    Etoils is the 'ex hardcore porn addict'?

    Well if that,s true then it takes Duke,s reference
    to Etoile 'spraying' to a whole new level.

  43. Think thats what he meant Paul! If you really want a blue c just pitch ideas to Jess, if they gave me the gig, yopu should be a shoe in, and you'd be good in the BTL stramash too. : )

  44. Anyone else want popcorn for psalmist vs muscleguy?

    My money's on muscleguy...

  45. Abortion thread, psalmist seems to think that having a decades old biology degree trumps being a developmental biologist working today.

    I admit to being a little biased in my team selection ;-)

  46. Hah! Just read it.

    And yes, muscleguy for the win on that one.

  47. Spectacular 'but the system should just work' from Nap Muscleguy will walk it but it's kinda 'Where's Wally' with the artist vs Blunket, D.

  48. Turminder

    "but it's kinda 'Where's Wally' with the artist vs Blunket"

    ROTFLMAO I'll be using that one!

  49. 'None so blind..' Dott... : )

  50. As those sticking their fingers in their ears, screwing their eyes shut and singing "La la la" Turminder?

  51. La, la, la, I can't bear children, so I can impose my will on those who do.. You got it..

    I'm fancying 'mother and child reunion' for tea; chicken - egg fried rice.

  52. I had that last night! Chuck a star anise and some fennel into the pan while frying the chicken, lovely!

  53. Duke +Turminder

    Feel like Cprl Jones- the one from Dads Army whose
    always one step behind the rest of the platoon.Had
    no idea about Etoile and hardcore porn.Thought it was
    just my filthy mind that found Dukes ditty funny but
    as i,m still feeling my around on UT didn,t want to
    make more of a prat of myself than i already have.

    btw Your confidence in me is appreciated but i think
    if i write ATL on CIF and then go BTL to defend it
    i,ll probably get banned for life.

  54. fennel seeds obviously, and a bit of soy sauce.

    Then wilt some spinach into the mix at the last moment.

  55. Hmmm Spinach! I did allo saag last week, used nettles instead of spinach, worked a treat!

  56. I like it I like it a lot, I know I have no right but may I name the dish?

    I'd like to call it:

    "fieldworker's revenge"

  57. Paul,

    no worries. I hadn't actually thought about 'spraying' in that context either. Turminder obviously has a dirtier mind than me ;)

  58. God that abortion thread is awful some really nasty pieces of work on there.

  59. Hello all,

    Sorry I've been a bit absent.... had a bit of a bug since I got back from N. Wales (either that or my Mum has been trying to poison me!)

    Duke - brilliant reduction of the Milne thread...

    Ive been a bit head stuck up the arse of CiF for a few days, locked in battle with the vile 'Emilee' - lying through her teeth in that supercilious way that and constantly saying I was 'calling her a troll', that I was 'abusive' and 'hostile' not just to her but everybody I have ever engaged with on CiF - ever! the fucking nerve of it! In the end, I pressed 'report abuse' on her I was so pissed off.... then I saw that that vile UkIP supporter "I used to be a Labour voter' wanker Ardennes Pate had posted a really vicious comment about me. Got that vanished as well...

    Anyway, for the first time ever, one of my comments made it to the selection on the front page today.... do you reckon it was a reward for fighting trolls for once???


  60. La Rit Front page! WooT!

    Dott It had a wee bit of steak in so "fieldworker's revenge" it shall forever be ;)

    13th, I have a dirtier mind than everyone except Deanno, and my girlfriend...

  61. TurminderX:

    I was well chuffed I can tell you ;)

  62. LaRit

    Your posts on the Diane Abbott thread were good to read as always but i don,t agree with you this time.
    Personally her hypocrisy over sending her kid to
    public school still grates-especially as she was one
    of the fiercest critics of Harriet Harman when she
    sent her kid to a state grammar school.And she played
    the race card as one of her excuses-ie the under-achievment of Black boys in Hackneys schools etc.Yet some Black parents in Hackney send their kids to state schools outside of Hackney where over 60% of them are getting 5+ GCSE,S.So i think it was inexcusable for Abbott to play the race card.

    Abbott has also failed to speak out against Welfare
    Reform and New Labours mass immigration policy
    even though they have both had and will have a detrimental effect on working class communities.
    And all this bollocks from Abbott about 'understanding' how Black and White working class
    people feel about immigration for instance makes
    me want to puke.For she is on record as saying that
    when Black consituents from Hackney have tried to
    raise their concerns about immigration she simply
    shows them the door.

    Diane Abbott is a successful middle class woman
    who just happens to be Black.She plays the race
    card when its within her interest to do so.And
    when she misuses it -which she has done-she insults
    those many Black people who are genuinely victims
    of racism.In addition she also has a reputaion for
    being downright rude to people which doesn,t exactly
    make her popular.

    Of course i,d like to see a Black woman or man
    leading the Labour Party .But if Abbott is to succeed
    she has to be as accountable for her actions as anyone else.And right now i genuinely believe that
    Abbott has a lot of 'baggage' which makes it unlikely
    she will succeed.And if i,m right it will be because
    of who she is and not because she,s a Black woman.

  63. Turminder

    Bet my minds dirtier :-)

  64. Turminder,

    Brilliant, thank you! There are a fair few cows I've wished to extract revenge on too!

    Just wanted to save this gem from FreeManMoxy:

    "being patronised by you is like being called ugly by Andrew Lloyd-Webber"

    And La Rit, not only did you find it, you walked in and owned it, kudos.

  65. LaRit: Notwithstanding my comment on the abortion thread that men really have no business moralising about abortion, i do want to disagree with you just a little bit.

    You said (among other things i agree with wholeheartedly) that

    Having a medical abortion is akin to having a very painful period [I should know, I've had one] and has little psychological effect and carries even less risk and can be done within the first 6 weeks.

    However, i know from the experiences of women i have known (not necessarily in the biblical sense) that many can face extreme anguish involving intimacy, guilt, and grief, before even reaching any decision to terminate. Forcing such women through hoops of multiple doctors' signatures and making them -- god forbid -- watch foetal ultrasound scans is just vindictive IMHO.

    Congrats for your front page comment by the way.

  66. I said in an earlier post that i wouldn,t post
    anything ATL on Cif because if i went BTL to defend
    it i,d probably get banned.What i should have said
    is defending it against some of the tossers who lurk
    periodically BTL.Have no problem with people
    disagreeing with me if they make their case.

  67. Am often wrong about loads of things!

  68. I should stop reading that thread, I keep wanting to wade in and fight others battles for them, and I need to be off to the pub soon!

  69. Hey Paul,

    Thanks for the compliments.

    I am inclined to agree with your conclusion re: Diane Abbott having too much baggage to lead the party.

    The point I was getting at on the thread is that the gene pool is very small in terms of who is suitable and white middle-to-upper class men are so over-represented, when someone like Abbott throws her hat into the ring, it's a welcome change ... but that doesn't make it right that she should be chosen, above all else for her colour and gender and not on her leadership qualities.

    I do think she does genuinely leave the door open and is not one to be kicking the ladders out from beneath those trying to achieve - and I say this not as someone who believes the myth of the meritocracy which the odius Emin clearly does and subscribes to the view that because she has 'made it' she should now start voting Tory and not paying tax.... effectively shutting the door in people's faces.

    But I still have an issue with her sending her kid to a public school - I think Cairncross made a good point about her hopes for her son as a parent and her political persona. I don't have kids, but if I did, sending them to a private school would be anathema to my political soul. However, which school you send your child to is a matter of knowledge and opportunity, most working class people wouldn't have a clue where to begin (I'm talking scholarships now)

    We lived very close to a specialist Music School and I sang in an early music consort with some of the kids who went there... I was desparate to try for a scholarship because I had a gift for music and at the Comprehensive I was at, I was frustrated and always in trouble. But my parents, partly through ignorance and partly because they were just too anxious about money constantly, never took my requests seriously. I certainly think that had a lasting effect on me and my confidence in music, even though I eventually got to Music College as an under-graduate and post-graduate and for a significant part of my life, have been a professional performer (if perpetually bloody poor!) Perhaps Diane Abbott was taking advantage of her acquired knowledge to work the system to give her son a helping hand, using knowledge and access to information that the middle classes learn at their Mother's knee?

    The issue of immigration in Boroughs like Hackney is a highly contentious one, I was not living in the greatest of circumstances myself and have also been homeless, I still saw myself as a much lower priority than the vast majority on the housing list, but the perceptions that people have as opposed to the reality are two very different things.

    It's true that great numbers of immigrants (mainly from very impoverished Eastern Bloc countries) were effectively dumped in high numbers in very deprived areas, where resources were already highly pressurised, but that just exacerbated an already crisis situation and I know in Tower Hamlets, it was easy for working class people (of all ethnicities) to blame 'immigrants' rather than admit that they had been double-dumped on, once by Thatcher and then by their own party.... the issue should have been 'Why' there were no council flats and houses being built in Tower Hamlets at all? In both Hackney and Tower Hamlets, the obscenties and corruption surrounding housing are inexcusable. So it is a complex and multi-faceted issue.

  70. PerkinWarbeck is also rocking on the abortion thread.

  71. medev:

    Thanks for the congrats ;)

    I'm going to be completely honest here and you can appreciate this isn't easy to write.

    I was one of those very unfortunate women who was both extremely fertile and a victim of several shite barrier methods of contraception not to mention poor information and advice. I refused to take the Pill because I didn't think it was safe, I'd taken it briefly and it made me feel so awful, I never took it again.

    I was so bloody fertile even the morning after pill failed to work for me on one occasion!

    Over a period of time, I got pregnant 4 times - twice in my mid-20's and twice in my mid-30's.

    I had two surgical abortions, the first was a bit unpleasant but I got over it quite quickly - I was relieved more than anything, the second was extremely harrowing as I was forced to wait (I think deliberately so) until I was nearly 13 weeks and then had to undergo an ultrasound, which was conducted by a radiologist who I believe didn't actually beleive in abortion and who left the room with the screen facing me ... trying to guilt-trip me into not going through with it. It nearly worked, but I had no job and no money and the guy who is still my partner now, I'd only been seeing for 6 weeks.... I couldn't imagine bringing a child into the world in those circumstances.

    When I finally was admitted, I then had the horror of a Nurse, who, as she was wheeling me into theatre saying to me.... "Don't you want children then"??? If I hadn't been feeling so vulnerable and sedated, I would have jumped up and punched the unprofessional, cruel bitch right in the face, it had already been a very, very difficult decision to make.

    That took a long time to get over as the longer the delays went on, the more of a criminal I felt (the anti-abortionists do a very good job)

    Medical abortions are a very different affair, the two I had were both at 6 weeks and though extremely uncomfortable, you are conscious and in control of what is happening to a certain extent. It is such a different thing, I can't tell you and psychologically, much easier to deal with. That's why as much information should be readily available to women (of all ages) but particularly the most vulnerable. I still think that decent information and a real understanding of me as a human being maybe could have prevented me going through what I had to go through.

    I also feel extremely angry and antagonistic towards these evnagelical, puritanical backward, judgemental bastards who seek to try and criminalise women and make them feel like monsters for exercising what is their right - it's systematic and permitted abuse as far as I ascertain against women which is deemed acceptable and the attempts to guilt-trip women with gory images of aborted foetus's not to mention horror stories about 'late abortion'is in my mind, unforgivable and should be made illegal.

    I sometimes wonder, if we had a more rational approach and more honest and open discussion and accepted abortion as a normal and ethically necessary part of life, then I suspect most of the women who suffer unduly (through stigamtisation and self-stigmatisation) after going through a termination would not do so to such a great degree.

  72. LaRit - you've been doing some fine posting here and there the last couple of days.

  73. ... and I said that before I'd seen your latest post, which is a brave one. These stories are all too common, and I could share one or two myself.

    Cath Elliot also posted once about taking her daughter in for an abortion and the doctors deliberately delaying things so much that it was nearly too late - she said that if her daughter hadn't had Cath with her, she would have been intimidated into giving up. (This is how I remember what she said, anyway. Hope I'm not distorting anything.)

  74. LaRit

    I was always one of the lucky ones and have never had to terminate, but I support the right to choose 100% and find the notion that so-called medical professionals feel free to give their personal views utterly reprehensible.

    I would never lecture a convict on his behaviour no matter how much I might loathe what he has done. It isn't professional. Doctors and nurses should bit their lips and get on with what they are paid to do, and only give advice when asked for it.

  75. Paul
    Re Abbott at 20 May, 2010 16:41
    Exactly. Hypocricsy all up and down her.

    "Perhaps Diane Abbott was taking advantage of her acquired knowledge to work the system to give her son a helping hand"

    Well of course, that's what anyone is *ever* doing when they send their brats to private school - to *knowingly* give their kid an unfair advantage over ten other kids down the street.

    Whichever way you play this parential choice you cannot - CANNOT - then go to make a career banging on about fairness and justice.

    It is, quite simply, either/or. Either you do give your kids a gun to hold against his peers' heads, and back out of politics, or you don't. Out of principle.

    I genuinely think - from all the times I've seen her speak - she's too self righteous and dim to get that fully. Which is why she is not really fit to be anwhere in the Labour Party ranks let alone an MP.

  76. La Rit

    Your last post is very brave - I salute you! Like BB I never had to make the decision and the pill suited me. I stayed on it for 12 years after my kids arrived then got myself sterilised when I was in my 30's.

    I was incredibly lucky to benefit in the way I did and in not having to make the kind of decisions you've had to make.

    Its outrageous that women having to make what are often very difficult decisions should be emotionally blackmailed by medical professionals, or anyone else for that matter.

  77. Thaumaturge:

    "you've been doing some fine posting here and there the last couple of days"

    I thank you truly, for saying that ;)

    (Also to We, the People...)

    I took a risk posting what has been my experience above as I have lived with a deep, ingrained fear of someone hunting me down and shooting me for revealing the fact that I had 4 abortions. (the fact that one person on the counter showed up as in the States nearly stopped me before I realised it might be Montana)

    It is and remains, very uncommon and I think I was spectacularly unlucky for many complex reasons. I've met and spoken to plenty of women who have had one or two abortions, but only one other who had a similar history and I've only ever known one person who had a very late abortion about 20 years ago.

    What I have discovered that it is an issue women do not discuss openly, unless we're drunk or off our faces at 5 in the morning in the toilets of clubs. Only then do we find our solidarity and reaffirmation that we are not 'terrible people or monsters' and it is only in those moments that we don't live in fear of either retribution or judgement.

    I get very incensed thinking that if women are too scared to discuss their experiences, then what does that say about where we are socially and how on earth can we move forward and help other women if it is so taboo? Not very far up the scale that's for sure.

    I think I've probably only recently realised that I have, by force of pressure from the cacophany of voices damning women and abortion, kept my own mouth shut. The implication of violence in many of the posts on any thread where it comes up, is, like the rabid right-wing trolls a form of 'terror tactic' that needs to be challenged.

  78. Thaumaturge:

    "you've been doing some fine posting here and there the last couple of days"

    I thank you truly, for saying that ;)

    (Also to We, the People...)

    I took a risk posting what has been my experience above as I have lived with a deep, ingrained fear of someone hunting me down and shooting me for revealing the fact that I had 4 abortions. (the fact that one person on the counter showed up as in the States nearly stopped me before I realised it might be Montana)

    It is and remains, very uncommon and I think I was spectacularly unlucky for many complex reasons. I've met and spoken to plenty of women who have had one or two abortions, but only one other who had a similar history and I've only ever known one person who had a very late abortion about 20 years ago.

    What I have discovered that it is an issue women do not discuss openly, unless we're drunk or off our faces at 5 in the morning in the toilets of clubs. Only then do we find our solidarity and reaffirmation that we are not 'terrible people or monsters' and it is only in those moments that we don't live in fear of either retribution or judgement.

    I get very incensed thinking that if women are too scared to discuss their experiences, then what does that say about where we are socially and how on earth can we move forward and help other women if it is so taboo? Not very far up the scale that's for sure.

    I think I've probably only recently realised that I have, by force of pressure from the cacophany of voices damning women and abortion, kept my own mouth shut. The implication of violence in many of the posts on any thread where it comes up, is, like the rabid right-wing trolls a form of 'terror tactic' that needs to be challenged.

  79. LaRit - it's me, BB, in disguise.

    I should log out of my working email account and log into my beautiful burnout one instead now, to avoid confusion.

    Quick change..... then I will read the rest of your post. BRB.

  80. btw:

    just read PerkinWarbeck.

    Class act !

  81. Calling that arse borisoneshenko:

    A pompous, patronising ass is apparently 'unacceptable' !

    What a wuss.

  82. Yay! \o/

    LaRit, at least it was unintentional. I had an acquaintance in France who had two kids and wanted to be sterilised, but the rules said they wouldn't sterilise her until she had had 3 children, so she would deliberately get pregnant and have an abortion until eventually her doctor and Ob/gyn threw in the towel and let her have her own way... I think she was up to five and counting.

    Having said that, it was entirely her choice, and up to her, but I am not so sure I could be that cold about it if it were me somehow...

  83. LaRit

    I think you are right about it being a terror tactic...it is a sweeping generalisation I know, but the majority of so-called pro-life people have a tendency to be right-wing scary people.

    Jim Dowson, who is father in law to Nick Griffin's daughter and up to his ears with the BNP running their call centre in N.I., apparently owning most of the party's assets now, runs an anti-abortion, anti-contraception pressure group called Life League - wiki link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Life_League

    Not a nice man...

  84. Hi All

    LaRit--Very candid and courageous post. Reading the Penny thread shows the need for enlightenment and education on the abortion issue. Polarising to say the least, but articles like this can hopefully generate more honest discourse and debate. And human/womens' rights trump religious dogma every time.

  85. BB:

    My Mum was asking after you on the phone this evening! She was saying, "I haven't seen BB on CIF lately..." ;)

    As for the terror tactics.... it's high time this shite was fronted up for what it really is...

    Thanks for the link about Jim Dowson.... that name rings so many horrible bells. Will check it out now.

  86. OMG. Confirms what I was saying then....from the link...

    "what people really need is to be confronted with the grim and gruesome reality of abortion"

    As opposed to War, naturally.

    Fuckin' hell....

  87. LaRit

    LOL - that is so funny! :o) Send her my love, won't you?

    If you have followed my sporadic posts here, my netbook died and I had to send it back to get repaired under warranty, which meant I was stuck scrounging time on either my husband's puter in his poky little office upstairs or my son's... neither a very comfortable option.

    Bitey seems to think I am lying about that for some reason though. Eeejit.

  88. La Rit and others -

    Thanks for your comments and observations, which are interesting, so please do not take this as being flippant...

    A chap in America has just created life from bits of mail-order DNA he has nailed together.

    It's only bacteria, so very tiny life, but won't it open up all sorts of questions about God and stuff?

    And the fact that we were always told that it needed just the right set of - unlikely, bizarre and precise - circumstances to make life out of the primordial soup, as they used to call it when I was at school.

    I think I will send off for a job-lot of second-hand, reject and flood-damaged DNA and see what I can knock together.

    Just going to get my trusty old Acme Junior Science Kit...

  89. LaRit--"As opposed to war naturally"

    Maddening how those on the 'moral' right will condone war and death penalties whilst lecturing others on abortion. Many of them don't seem to give a shit about poor or underprivileged kids after the births either.

    Paul--You may have a dirtier mind, but deano puts it in print for all to see.:-)

  90. We now have men on that thread suggesting that foetuses spend their days slumbering in utero thinking about how much they love their mummies....

    That has to be up there with "sea kittens" though - seriously...

  91. LaRit - I find it astonishing, if you bring up the subject of abortion in a safe, girls-only (usually) group, how many women have had one, or have at least thought they'd have to have one.

    Being forced to carry a pregnancy to term is literally my worst nightmare.

    Practically the moment I turned 18, I went to the doctor and asked to be sterilised. They refused on the grounds that I would change my mind some day. Well, I haven't, as I knew I wouldn't. Another case of not taking women's reproductive choices seriously.

    The decision to have an abortion is probably more difficult for women who do want children some day, but not at the time in question.

  92. Boudican

    Fair point but at this stage i,m trying to play it
    safe.Not sure getting a reputation as a hot-headed
    perv is one i,m comfortable with.Plus of course
    Deano is far more eloquent than me and can make
    the most pervy scenarios sound like a work of art.
    Sadly if i were to attempt to 'Do a Deano' the vice
    squad would probably get involved and yours truly
    would be permanently cast adrift in cyber space.

  93. Evening all. Apropos of nothing.

    In work today, the radio was on (godawful radio station at that) and 'Nothing compares 2 U' by Sinead O'Connor came on.

    One of my colleagues claims that Prince wrote it about giving up cigarettes. Now being the investigative sort, I've had a look on t'net but I've drawn a blank about Prince, giving up tabs and 'Nothing compares 2 U'.

    However when listening to the lyrics, the subject matter actually fits uncannily well.

    Can any music experts verify this claim?

  94. Well, Duke, the song has always seemed to suit the break-up of a relationship remarkably well....

  95. YOur Grace

    Well I think it was written by Prince, but not about smokes.

    The line "All the flowers that you planted, lover, in the back yard all died when you went away..." kind of gives it away imo.

    Love that choon. Have been known to warble it on many a drunken karaoke occasion. :o)

  96. @Thauma - that experience resonates with me. I have had relationships with three women who had had at least one abortion before I met them. Of those three, one had children and the other two didn't (they were all in the mid-30s to mid-40s).

    I haven't had that many relationships, and I don't think I seek out particular women through some bizarre form of radar. So my feeling is that you're right about the prevalence of abortion being higher than generally imagined.

  97. BB,

    "All the flowers that you planted, lover, in the back yard all died when you went away..."

    Tobacco plants? Cannabis plants?

  98. Ah - wikipedia (which according to my two lads, Frankie Boyle said each page should start with the words "I reckon....") says that that line should read "All the flowers that you planted Mama in the back yard..."

    It also says that the song was written about the actress Susannah Melvoin.


  99. My l33t Wiki skillez have paid off. Susannah Melvoin is the sister of Wendy Melvoin, of Wendy and Lisa fame - and part of The Revolution in the 80s. (as in Prince and...).

    There is a track on Purple Rain that starts "Wendy?..." "Yes, Lisa...", and I am buggered if I can remember what track it is now.

  100. Computer Blue. The name of the track.

    Happy now. :o)

  101. 13thDukeofWybourne
    Nah, Prince probably rattled it out and demoed it in about an hour, top to bottom, and his songs never conveyed "messages". They were mostly just barely finished demos - just visceral and compelling, cross-musical boundary vignettes. He had an incredible work-rate in those days; on the evidence of his writing style there was neither the time nor interest to conceive and hone a "message". Apart from just getting people off their feet. His fight with Atlantic was titanicly singleminded and cool - he put the efforts of George Michael against Sony, or Michael Jackson in his Northern Songs buyout battels to shame.

    Her version was rather good though, and she carried it of with aplomb live to. I say that with reservations about her overall talent. Theirs was just a story of serendipitous timing. And good luck to them. Fuck knows what the eighties would have looked or sounded like with Prince. Or the memory of her crying in that video. That was inspired.

  102. Oh yes, Computer Blue- "Wendy? Yes Lisa? Is the water warm enough.....". Prince- never knowingly undersexed. Purple Rain is an absolute solid gold classic of an album.

    Anyway, here's lo fi indie masters Smog with Prince alone in the studio which imagines his royal purpleness suffering existential angst of enormous proportions as he works away in the wee small hours.

    Bizarre but brilliant.

  103. Heres a great Prince song performed by Wendy and Lisa


    Again. Tossed off by Prince in about ten minutes, then given a chance to breathe by others.

    Prince, frankly, rocked in the eighties.

  104. Bitterweed,

    Fuck knows what the eighties would have looked or sounded like with Prince.

    You said it mate. Prince albums automatically put a spring in my step. Every single 80's album he ever did never fails to cheer me up.

  105. And he wrote Bangles "Manic Monday" in about 20 minutes.

    Susannah Hoffs cooing "he tells me in his bedroom voice, come on let's go make some noise" really was one of my musical highlights as an impressionable lad.

  106. Purple Rain was in my car cassette player virtually non-stop for months. Superb album.

  107. thaumaturge
    Interstingly, Sinead (I can do a Bitey here and get direct source quotes if needed) said at the time of the video shoot that she had broken up with her boyfriend the day before. She just drew on that, and welled uop on camera.

    Twenty years later, she says she garnered her emotional realism from having not got over her mum's death, and the line about flowers dying in the backyard was about her mother's gardening skills being utterly lost on the familluy household in the long wake of her death.

    Far less prosaiac. And far more canny from a marketing point of view.

    Whatever; I love the record and saw her do it live in 1990 and fuck severel thousand people up instantly in her encore; they walked off into the night time seeking splifs and tequilla and truth. Or something.


  108. It really is time for a major Prince retrospective I think. Not tonight for me though unfiortunately - My missus = home soon.

    Some time soon though, defo.

  109. Bitterweed,

    definitely up for a Prince retrospective!

  110. Boudican/BBakapeeps/Thaumaturge/

    \0/..... ;)x

    I hope my post didn't freak anyone out too much, it seemed as much as anything that I have lived in fear of retribution for too long a time.

    Women do not seem to have any solid forum, public, private or otherwise to really be honest about things and therefore, not only are we in the dark about each other, but the fellas who the one's we need on our side are in the dark too....

    Anyway, too much beer and too much posting. Am glad we've got onto much more cheerful things like the wondrous pixie .... Prince ;)

    PS BB I'll tell my Mum, she'll be cheered for sure x

  111. OMG that is so hilarious!

    The Alibi channel announcer has just announced "Silent Witness" with a warning that it contains scenes of corpses and post-mortems...

    No! Get away!

    That's why we watch it, yer twat!

    Like the Sci-Fi (or bloody SyFy as they have now restyled themselves) warning us about the supernatural nature of the show "Medium". FFS, do they think we are letting 5 year olds watch it at this time of night.

    I bought a packet of pine nuts to put in a salad yesterday and the packet said "May contain traces of nuts". I should fecking hope it did.

    What is wrong with people?!

  112. BB

    I bought a packet of pine nuts to put in a salad yesterday and the packet said "May contain traces of nuts". I should fecking hope it did.

    In all fairness you should always be careful what type
    of nuts end up in your salads .

    @LaRit-Big respect to you lady!

  113. LaRit - you just have more courage than most of the rest of us.

    Re Prince - couldn't stand him in the 80s but have come to like some of his stuff. Like this: maybe I'm just like my father ... maybe you're just like my mother.

    Sinéad I think is a brilliant talent but a fucked-up person. Her version of "She Moved Through the Fair" is sublime.

    See her brilliant brother Joseph O'Connor's comments....

  114. Hey all

    Cheers for amking me laff and evn more for always making me welcome here... it is mucho appreciated ;)

    Nuts in Salad?

    What the fuck are the 'Nuts in May' doing?

    Dirty buggers ;)

  115. LaRit - re nuts in salad.

    A vain attempt to get my vegan son to eat more protein and fewer ketchup sandwiches as his staple diet... but he has always loved salad ever since he was tiny, so I knew it would work.

  116. Fuck, I REALLY need some glasses....
    amking evn? anyone?

  117. LaRit, your presence here is much appreciated.

    Joseph O'C's comments were something like (broad Dublin accent): "see, I have this one sister who's, like, a wee bit excitable, and she got into a bit of a barney with the pope, and the whole family felt they had to apalagise to him even if we didn't believe in anything...".

    His novel The Salesman is highly recommended too. Twisted.

  118. BB

    I do a mean vegan feast... including the bread to mop up the faux 'meat' gravy with .... if you ever get sick of trying to feed him, send him round here and I'll do a bit of annoying food magic ;) Unless of course he's 15 and then he'll probably tell me to feck off !

  119. Have just had an e-mail from Cif moderation team
    saying they are re-instating a post of mine that
    got zapped.Respect to them for doing that!

    @LaRit-Just to make it clear the nuts in salad is
    BB,s thing not mine.Me cut,n,paste didn,t make that


  120. Paul - had you e-mailed them first to complain about the zapping, or did they do it spontaneously? If the latter, extra respect to them!

    Nuts do not belong in salad.

    (And I have the dirtiest mind of all, now that my beloved granny has passed away.)

  121. I have made a discovery. Having just tried and failed to raise the energy to go to the local pub, I have found a pizza delivery place that will also bring round booze and fags. So I am now content.

    Some good news in these straitened times.

  122. thaumaturge-I did complain but wasn,t actually
    expecting anything other than the usual 'these are the
    rules baloney etc.Am genuinely impressed!

    re Nuts-am with you on that .Think you should have
    a quiet word with BB .

    re dirty minds-put mine down to my Catholic upbringing!

  123. PeterJ - that is a class service. I stand in awe of them.

    Must drag carcase off to bed now.

  124. LaRit

    I might take you up on that. He is 14 and would tell me to feck off, but would be as sweet and polite as pie with you. Otherwise I'd hammer him :p

    (Only a joke, Bitey, before you report me to the soash.)

    Peter -

    "To Brighton, to Brighton
    "Where they do such things and they say such things
    "In Brighton, in Brighton
    "I'll never go there any more"

    That's fab, though. I found a place locally here that delivers kebabs, which is enough for me...

  125. Paul - it will be interesting to see what happens on Cif with Georgina and then Matt leaving. All depends on who takes over, I'd guess.

    OK, right, off now ... unless another interesting post appears when this one goes up!

  126. BB - nuts are all very well in their proper place *cough* but the texture is all wrong for salad. And that is my final word.

  127. thaumaturge

    And BB should also be looking for other forms of
    natural protein-more suitable for a salad!

  128. My wife puts cashews in some salads, that's as far as I'll let her go. It's an Asian thing, though she isn't.

    Sorry, won't join the Prince adoration, I'm a blues guy. (flees from monitor)

  129. Evening all...


    @James Dixon-That Hoary Fox Cheese thing was a lame
    attempt at a joke on my part.FFS don,t go into a shop
    and ask for it.

    Haha - My desperation for some of the yellow stuff's obviously badly affected my humour/irony filter.

    (although, to be fair, I was only going to look for it, not ask - not least because I hadn't yet figured out a way to mime 'hoary fox' in the likely event that my verbal request wasn't understood....)

  130. Way to clear a thread James!!!

    Apologies for that!!

    Anyway, I'm off now.

    Night all!!

  131. Sorry James; my emergency supplies had just arrived from the mobile pub. Which I also discover will do emergency groceries like milk, tea and pot noodles. I may never leave the house again.

  132. Awww James - you didn't clear the thread. I have been watching corpses and post-mortems that the nice man on the TV warned me about.

    Hope you find some cheese of some kind at least - I can't believe they don't do cheese in Brazil!

  133. LaRit: Sorry i could not respond earlier because of family complications here. Highly courageous post(s) indeed. Perhaps it is fair to say that women who might need an abortion should be cut a bit of slack. It was more or less what i was trying to say.

  134. evening all

    La Rit
    thankyou for your post earlier...I think it's very true that many women don't even talk to other women about their experiences of abortion for fear of being unfairly judged...I am close to someone that has had very similar experiences as you .....

    "I have been watching corpses and post-mortems"
    feel like i've being doing the same just been watching a programme on the catholic church and abuse.......a rarity in Italy the pope the church cannot be criticised.....and the presenter/journalist of the programme has again been booted out from national TV because gawd forbid he questions the government and the vatican....a great loss to freedom of speech and debate here...f@@king berlusconi he is a facist

  135. Am watching QT.

    Shami Wotshername of Liberty looks about 12.

  136. "Shami Wotshername of Liberty looks about 12."
    And argues from about the same viewpoint.

  137. For beautiful women everywhere; from the inside out


    Splendid. And yes I am pissed.

    Huzzah ! Wimmin !

    Exept the tossers of course.

  138. Paul

    Have it


    I did !

  139. Nite.

    PS @LaRit.

    I know it got clouded by varous subsequent chat about abortion, but: I meant what I said above about Diane Abott being a traitor to less advantaged under her watch. She is. By doing what she did she systematicaly fucked annettan's kids, leni's kids, montana's kids, and millions of similar.

    So - she cannot - ever - represent them.

    Why do people have such difficulty with this ? She needs to fuck off.

  140. @Bitterweed
    Tried the link but it didn,t work.Thanks for the thought anyway.

    @Peter J
    Thanks for confirming who that A1 tosspot on QT was.
    Another Old Etonion no less.When i saw your avatar
    on Cif thought it looked familiar.Didn,t click that
    the person on Cif and your good self were one and the
    same person until later.Cheers!

  141. With regard to salad: as the inimitable Miles Kington once wrote; "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad."

  142. Montana

    Just wanted to thank you again for UT.Providing a
    forum like UT without actively imposing your own
    agenda makes you special. :-)