24 May 2010


The Fifth Crusade left Acre for Cairo in 1218.  The First Kingdom of Greece was declared at the Convention of London in 1832.  The Brooklyn Bridge opened to traffic in 1883.

Born today:  Gabriel Fahrenheit (1686-1736), Mikhail Sholokhov (1905-1984), Siobhán McKenna (1923-1986), Bob Dylan (1941), Patti LaBelle (1944), Jim Broadbent (1949), Alfred Molina (1953), Roseanne Cash (1955), Kristin Scott Thomas (1960), and Eric Cantona (1966).

It is Victoria Day in Canada, eh?


  1. Happy Victoria Day Canadians!

    Can you send me some Maple Syrup please?

  2. Leni you wrote some great posts last night and I totally agree with you.

    I wasn't around to see Hank Scorpio in his (apparent) prime and all I have seen from him is whinging about other people, not impressed.

    Come on Hank put some effort into it and write something from the heart and brain that makes people sit up and think, that is your self declared aim after all.

    You are obviously very clever and you have a real talent for insulting people but lets face it that is not a talent that the world needs more of.

  3. happy Bidet Patti LaBelle.....

    The spirit's in me..... whaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

    fookin fabulous song, fabulous singer!

  4. Morning all

    Just to remind anyone who's interested the Sheffield meet up will be on Saturday 5th June at The Rutland Arms about five minutes walk from train/bus stations. Arriving between 3-4pm.

  5. I always seem to miss the times when Hank comes on to post, but I think that something should have changed with the exchanges yesterday evening.

    In looking through the comments, Hank was given support and encouragement (not said in the artificial, homogenised tones of a concerned social worker's voice) and a deserved level of controlled adulation.

    There are people who can write and stun us with their words and meaning. We can be inspired and challenged and made to feel that there actually is something which we can do about the world.

    Hank made CiF a worthwhile place to go, along with others like MonkeyFish, but we have to accept that it will carry on without any particular contributors. Yes, it will become a more shitty, intellectually desolate place, strewn with the detritus of those who only view it as an artificial social prop or a place to strut their idiocies for the imagined delight of a trapped audience.

    I have hoped that Hank has been writing elsewhere and would agree that adopting another persona on CiF would probably be a good thing if Hank wants to carry on inspiring and skewering people over there.

    The main thing is to get back into using a very real ability, talent and skill for something positive.

    Yesterday seemed not to be a shouting match with acrimony and retribution but something which, if CiF were able to adopt it, rather than their leaden-fisted, brain-lite version of dealing with dissent, might have meant that their playground did not get overrun by the sputum-spitters and goggle-eyed, mono-opinion zombies or the bubble-headed fantasists and people peeled from the pages and adverts of colour supplements.

    Blogging and commenting may not change the world, as I have argued plenty of times. The problem is that not doing so will certainly achieve nothing, unless the time saved is spent in doing something else more effective.

    Hank, you keep being welcomed back with open arms and genuine affection. Montana seems a decent person who will see that you have a value which allows a readiness to forgive past indiscretions or outrages.

    I miss you and MonkeyFish and Scherfig and think that both here and the other place are poorer by your absences.

    Whether the fight is taken back to CiF with any or all of us under new names and disguises or otherwise is not quite the point. The point is to keep plugging away.

    PS I think there should be a campaign that commercial operations which use free user-contributed content should not be allowed to simply lose it and not give it back.

    Anyone want to start making noises about that on CiF - ready for the new instar of the wobbly cyclist, whenever he finally fucks off?

  6. Atomboy et al

    This is why CiF exists.


    So they can sell you all that stuff you never knew you were asking for.

    Well, duh! clearly, but still.

  7. SwiftyBoy:

    This is why i use NoScript with Firefox. I have to allow three scripts out of eight in order to be able to comment on CiF (guardian.co.uk, guim.co.uk, googlesyndication.com). It means that i have one banner advert at the top of the CiF page (http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?target_id_removed_by_medve), and down the side usually one appeal and a modest number of guardian media merchandising ranging from (hetero) partner search offers, through books, towels, to USB cassette decks. None of those horrible in-your-face Central European Flash adverts, which shake and move, and cannot be switched off.

  8. SwiftyBoy

    Yes, this is true. It is also why the state database over which New Labour collectively masturbated was going to exist - and still will.

    The reason we, as people, exist is to be obedient and facile consumers, so any activity in which we now indulge has to have some kind of profit motive for someone, even if not us intentionally, and all our data has a potential buyer and marketable aspect, so that we can be generating money for someone even when we innocently think we are just chatting with our clattery fingers.

    The only problem for GMG and others is that I (and, I suspect, most other people) have never knowingly clicked on an advert and can now filter them so effectively from web pages that they are, to all useful intents and purposes, invisible.

    The only problem seems to be that in chasing this magical, mythical audience, The Guardian has decided that it needs a ratio of 98 percent fuckwits to 2 percent interesting people below the line and dangles the promise of a blue sticker to reel in the credulous fantasists and shoe-buying blurters of verbal mucous.


    Your do falls on the weekend of wedding anniversary and Atomgirl birthday celebrations and festivities.

    I'll think about your fun when I am sleeping in the car.

  9. Been trawling things I saved earlier for discussion groups etc and found an article I wrote on the English Civil War or as I really prefer to call it the English Revolution(we did end up chopping the King's head off after all!)

    Hope people find it interesting

  10. afternoon all

    Medve how do you do that firefox noscript thing?


    "the Guardian has decided that it needs a ratio of 98 percent fuckwits to 2 percent interesting people below the line and dangles the promise of a blue sticker to reel in the credulous fantasists and shoe-buying blurters of verbal mucous."
    Bloody brilliant......


    have you got a link for your article?

  11. gandolfo -
    If you click on the current UT2 article you'll find it listed.

    Can't work out how to link it to here!

    Folks - have just scrolled through yesterday's posts from after I went to bed!

    I seem to covering a suggestion made to Hank! Totally serendipitous! Been meaning to post it for ages just got round to editing it!

  12. anne
    thanks will read don't know how to link it unless it's like this......

  13. blimey it worked....don't know how to top page it on U2 though.....

  14. I been away for a week, only had brief flick through but looked like Nap got a pretty rough treatment last night. I know he's a tad difficult at times but he's 21, in a new city by himself and unemployed looking for work every day - not an enviable situation.

  15. It's there now, think it might be automatic?

  16. gandolfo:

    (for Firefox) http://noscript.net/

  17. HankScorpio

    Hank, I know you do not exactly delight in the use of some technologies but it might be worth your while to look here.

    You will find at least some of the almost 3 600 comments you made to assist GMG to draw in punters and clickers to their site still preserved in digital aspic.

    Obviously, the deleted ones just have the usual little graveside marker - the equivalent of the moderator in question holding up a hand to warn passers-by that they have been diligently doing the dirty-work of the Matt Seaton All Stars and making the world an ideologically tidier but less interesting place.

    My argument still stands that they should - ideally by default and automatically - send deleted or disappeared comments back to posters by email.

    I know Deano said we should all keep copies, but I always posted too quickly and with very little thought, to consider that something I could be bothered to do.

    Glad to see yesterday evening has prompted people to post articles.

  18. This comment has been removed by the author.

  19. Jay

    I agree. I haven't engaged in this bash Nap fest as it makes me, like BB, very uncomfortable. Nap is young and naive, has some woolly ideas and seemingly little experience and is now faced with a situation that he is finding hard and lonely to negotiate.

    He may be cushioned from the worst by having a bit of family money - well so what. I wouldn't wish abject poverty on him or anyone else.

    His experience in Glasgow at the shovel end could be the making of him - or not, which might depend on the support he gets, including what we can offer if we feel like it.

    Its perfectly possible to critique his ideas without trashing him personally. If people really can't engage with him without abusing him they could just scroll past his posts.

    We're very good on the UT at criticising and bemoaning (often stylishly thanks to His Grace and others) the state of the world and other people, which is fine and can be cathartic. But it's no substitute for action in the real world.

    Which is why I hope people who can will turn up for the Sheffield meet. In the end the real world is more interesting, fun and where we can make things happen, even when it feels like two steps forward and three back, if we're up for it.

    Anyway - another beautiful day not to be stuck indoors on a bloody computer. Laters.

  20. Atomboy

    Have just had a trawl through some of Hanks old posts. Just wish that he would resurrect that 'Hank' from his early and sad grave, there's some brilliant stuff there.

  21. Well said Sheff.

    Napoleon-hope you are OK and feel able to start
    posting here again.Everyone make,s mistakes and says
    and does stuff which on reflection they could have
    done better.If nothing else just leave a post letting
    people know you,re alright.Take care mate.

  22. Now that is some good posting by Hank Scorpio, sorry I wasn't around to see it at the time, I especially liked the 'what are you worried about reply'.

    Are you burned out Hank? I am not having a dig lots of people just get to the point where it doesn't seem worth it anymore.

    It is a real shame if that is the case.

  23. Paul

    It's pretty much of a glasshouses/stones things with me as I know I could be a pretty odious know everything myself in my youth.

    Nowadays, although I still have plenty of demons which I grapple with on an daily basis - I ham finding a bit of bog standard thoughtful kindness and consideration goes a long way. And save a few pretty basic values that are non'negotiable, I'm also a whole lot less certain about most things than I was 40 years ago.

    Some will groan at the wishy washyness of that but attempting to put yourself in another's shoes, trying a bit of kindness when an inner demon is whispering 'rip the stupid bastards head off' is actually quite difficult.

    As you know Paul, I don't always succeed!

  24. Afternoon all

    Glorious day again today!

    I will take a look at UT2, Anne - sounds interesting.

    Sheff - I would love to go back to being 21 but with all the understanding of life that I now have accumulated more than 25 years later. It would be pretty awesome.

    I feel quite embarassed at myself looking back....

  25. sheff

    You don,t need to explain yourself to me.Your descriptions of people in glasshouses and of youthful/
    not so youthful know-it- alls strike a chord with me too.Plus i,m painfully aware of my own shortcomings
    so am in no position to take the moral high ground
    with anyone here.

    The confidence/arrogance of youth needs to sometimes
    be tempered by those who are a bit older/wiser.But
    sometimes the greater reluctance to take risks by
    those who are a bit older/wiser needs to be challenged by those brimming with youthful confidence /arrogance.Trouble is that irrespective of age most
    people nowadays are either choosing to either keep their heads down or are actively complicit in what is so clearly unfair and unjust in our society.

    Your final comment to me was ''As you know Paul i
    don,t always succeed'.My reply to you is 'As you
    know Sheff i certainly don,t either'.

  26. God - it's like the tropics on my balcony...have to keep coming in and putting my head under the shower.

    Bought the Torygraph this morning for a change. It's actually quite a good paper - right wing rants aside, although they can be quite funny.

    Having said all that above about 'kindness' (heh - public figures are fair game)- there's a wonderful demolishment of the dreaded Fergie by Melanie McDonagh and the crosswords are good. Might buy it again.

    Apparently IcelandAir has named all its planes after Icelandic volcanoes.


    I'd love to have all the energy I had when I was 21 and less of the cynicism, (or is that just dashed illusions and a bit of realism) I've grown used to now. There's an edge of magic to everything when you're young that I really miss.

  27. Afternoon all,

    RE Napoleon (and @Napoleon, if you're reading!)

    For what it's worth, I don't feel that I violated any particular 'rules of engagement' with Napoleon on Saturday. (I even asked him if he minded if I wrote a response to his initial posts)!

    Having said that, I wasn't so personally offended by what he wrote, or had written, so I was able to keep a certain level of objectivity in my own response, and consequently, whatever other 'mitigating' factors I took into account in choosing how to respond to him, weren't over-ruled by any offense caused to me, although that was perhaps more by luck than a conscious effort on my part.

    (With regards to the other stuff, I think that the vast majority of posters on here, if not all, have been at various times, supportive, understanding, or sym/empathetic of Nap and his situation, many offering advice, particularly those with a working knowledge of Glasgow, finding a job, etc. etc.)

    But then, if the UT is to be a place of ideas, or of challenging untruths etc, surely we should be able to do that, right!?

    As others have said, various people pointed out their perceived flaws in Napoleon's argument, and offered a different view.
    As far as I was concerned, he didn't really engage with any of the points raised, and did, to some extent, try and move the goalposts.
    When this was pointed out, he resorted to sarcasm, and turned combative.

    It was largely here that things took a nasty turn....

    So again, where do we draw the line?

    Do we let things slide because of x, y or z, or the fear that it might cause a, b or c?

    Or do we stand our ground with regards to the things that we believe in, or that personally offend us, or are examples of the same old straw men/prejudices that a lot of us have been struggling against for large periods of our lives?

    And should we stop this fight at a certain point, because it's not being listened to, and, therefore, by persisting, by making it be listened to, we're going over the top?

    Personally, I would have enjoyed pursuing the debate with Nap (again, if you're reading Napoleon, I still would), but I think that in order for that to happen, there needs to be a willingness to do that. On both sides.

    Again, it seems that here on the UT, and places such as this, we're walking a fine line between fighting for a particular cause/viewpoint, exchanging ideas/knowledge/experience, and, like it or not, creating a kind of community where this can be achieved.

    In my opinion, in order for any of the above to happen in any meaningful way, everyone must be aware of all three things, at least to some extent, and probably, judge which one is more important in any given situation.

    Sometimes, we will get this wrong, sometimes people will draw the line at different places.

    There are some 'areas' that I'll fight more passionately and intensely about than others, for example, and similarly, there'll be other times when I'm more willing to defer to somebody else's more extensive knowledge or experience on a given subject, and sometimes, I'm sure I'll even walk away from a 'fight' because I value my 'relationship' with a particular poster, more than winning that particular argument.

    So yeah, I'm not really sure what my point is anymore, but probably something to do with omelets/breaking eggs, and maybe something to do with give and take, or being prepared to receive what we also dish out!!

    (Cue my own particular 'receiving' below......)

  28. BeautifulBurnout said...

    "And someone else had outed you before that too, which is how I knew it was you... dork."
    23 May, 2010 21:02

    The last post I made as jiasa before yet another banning, was 21 March - four days after your online snitching to Cordelia.

    And apart from sounding like a primary school child protesting to teacher - "please Miss Johnny did it before me", you and AllyF can't stand having someone posting who from time to time points out to the lap-dogs in your respective fan clubs that sometimes you aren't infallible.

    Well once in a while.

  29. Piss off Bitey.

    I have extended the olive branch to you on more than one occasion, but you just cannot help but dredge up what you consider to be personal failings in posters - some gleaned from conversations on here - and traduce them into spiteful bitchfests on CiF. In fact, you even adopted a special nick one night just for the very purpose of attacking me personally on Waddya.

    I really don't want to interact with you at all. You are a truly nasty piece of work.

  30. Deano

    A book you might enjoy - info about which I found in Torygraph today

    A precise and poetic paean to the peregrine"

  31. You still hanging around bitey - and on a fabulous day like this. Sad.

  32. He's trying to bore us to death.

  33. Hello All

    have posted on waddya asking how we can access posts from the banned . Await response from JR and hope others will join in.

    Anyone worrying about Nap should go to his blog.

  34. Ah - sudden thought.

    Perhaps Bitey has archive of all posts ever to Cif.

  35. Bitey,

    What follows is an expression of my personal feelings, it in no way constitutes an attempt to get you banned from anywhere (I have no admin privileges here), censor you or "out" you as whatever it is you are, were once, or may metamorphose into......

    "Piss off Bitey"

  36. Leni,

    Not mine, he told me once I'd never said anything of note (or words to that effect: I have no archivist tendencies). Coming from him I took it as a compliment!

  37. Oh pluckety pluck pluck pluck!

  38. And the nub of your problem is right here for all to see:

    "...you and AllyF can't stand having someone posting who from time to time points out to the lap-dogs in your respective fan clubs that sometimes you aren't infallible."

    Jealousy. Pure and simple.

    You just don't get it do you? You cannot understand why people seem to like us, yet they don't like you (well, apart from Ultima/Behemot).

    It would never occur to you that it is your behaviour that means that you are not liked. It has nothing to do with anything anyone else says about you.

    People don't like to see other people being subjected to sneaky, stalkerish, spiteful ad hominem attacks. If every time you (or anyone else I disliked) posted something I disagreed with I trawled back through all the posts you have made not only on CiF but also one here and on CiFModerationWatch to cherry-pick and quote out of context in order to try and make you or them look small, people wouldn't like me either.

    I don't do that. If I have something to say I will say it. If what I have to say is not very nice, I try to guage whether it adds any value to the conversation or not before deciding to say it. But I don't sneak around the place looking to smear people. You do. Without fail. It is the only way you seem to know how to operate.

    As I said yesterday or whenever it was, commenting on what you said to AllyF, if you had left your criticism the way it was in the main paragraph, nobody could fault you for it. But you had to add words to the effect of "And you call yourself a statistician" - the same way you have, time and again, said to me "And you call yourself a barrister".

    That is not criticism, that is seeking to impugn someone's character. And it is a snidey thing to do.

    Anyhoo, enought of this. I really can't be arsed to try and explain anything to you anymore, bitey.

    You are virtually universally disliked for a reason. You have only yourself to blame.

  39. Leni

    Just read Naps latest piece and comments, which are interesting. Although I don't know much about the Russian scene and people who commentate on it - he does seem to be more relaxed and articulate over there.

  40. Blimey. That'll learn me. I just posted an entire screed and it has disappeared. Either my caches need un-caching again or Habib really does have mod rights and is randomly zapping us from the side-lines....


    Only joking Habib :o) x

  41. James

    I wasnt directing that at anyone in particular, the UT can get heated and we all go off the rail sometimes, so as Paul says not looking to take the moral highground here. I just dont think he deserved that. And yes we must be able to argue and challenge ideas, and i think we do, but in my eyes the line was crossed into some fairly stiff abuse.

  42. Leni

    Thanks for picking up on that.

    I doubt whether it will really pick up and I hardly ever go to CiF these days, even to read anything - the fact that it tends to crash my browser of choice and cause the fans on my super-duper, new and pretty high-spec computer to scream when I do venture into its ad-logged territory doesn't help.

    Anyway, perhaps try to make the point that, although you agree to give CiF non-exclusive and perpetual rights to publish your comments, they are the things which lure visitors into at least teetering on the edge of clicking adverts and should be looked after by GMG.

    If they choose to delete or disappear what you have sent them, they should return your property safely to you for your own use.

    The idea of keeping a copy does not quite hold up. If you were a business and sent GMG a product on approval and they decided they did not want it, they would have to send it back in good condition. You could not both send it to them to approve and keep it yourself.

    Anyway, Seaton - the most arrogant, aggressive and mindless poster of all time on CiF - did not have the brains or guts to actually answer the moderation question but just assumed (rightly and safely, as it predictably turned out) that if he ignored it for long enough, the anger would subside into stasis which could be mis-interpreted as approval, so it is time to start stirring things up over there.

    That is, I assume it must be.

    For all I know, WADDYA is now littered with pink, heart-shaped graphic balloons and makes kissing noises every time anyone posts and they are now commissioning foetuses to write about why they do not intend to vote.

  43. Damn, Hank, I see I missed another gauntlet being thrown in my face. I really don't know what motivates your desire to get me involved in your fights and I don't generally pick up gauntlets - life's too short...

    ...however, you've told the same lie about me for a second time. You see, I don't have any supervisorial ability on this site, never have had, and will never want any. If you already know this, I withdraw my accusation that you are liar and instead call you a manipulative hank. So consider the challenge answered.

    You've been fairly personal and nasty to me before, I really didn't give a flying fuck about that and certainly won't start to so now, so voice away your opinion of me, if it satisfies some urge. If you tell a lie or say something hypocritical, I might respond.

    When I can be arsed.

  44. This comment has been removed by the author.

  45. Above post deleted as posted twice.

  46. atomboy:

    Just wanted to say that was a very moving post to Hank earlier.

    I liked it a great deal.

  47. Jay,

    I didn't think it was directed at me, it was just the first time I've had a proper chance to say my bit.

    I'm not defending or criticising anyone in particular either, and I suspect that, at any given time, point, or on some particular issues, I would re/act the same as anyone involved....

    We all react to certain things differently, and have buttons that can be pressed with varying degrees of pressure (easy Deano...), and I just think that we all have responsibility for either how we post stuff that may press them, or responding when they are pressed, or responding to the response etc.....

    In a way, nothing really happens in isolation, and, while most of the time that works well for somewhere like the UT, sometimes it doesn't....

  48. Erm, the post my above one was in response to seems to have disappeared....

    If I somehow imagined it, Jay, feel free to ignore my above one....

  49. atomboy and sheff

    re comments made on CiF when you register, if I remember rightly part of the agreement is that your comments become the "property" of the GMG...:

    I post rarely on Cif now the level of debate is almost zero.....just going onto the BA blog today just demonstrates where the vast majority of posters are coming from politically...it's pitiful......

    atomboy I'll start stirring....

  50. Losing stuff again... I can see others' posts but not my own.

    Gonna try clearing the cookies and caches and see if it makes any difference...

  51. It's worse for me BB. Other people's posts are mostly disappearing, and leaving just mine.

    It's like some kind of being 'trapped in your own head' nightmare....

  52. Well thats weird - one of my posts seems to have deleted itself and another two have completely vapourised. Properly plucked! so sorry if my remaining posts read a bit oddly.

  53. Clearing cookies then going to the internet options in the control panel and deleting the temp files seems to have done it...

  54. BB/James

    I can see your posts. Glad its not just me - at my age you can't be sure whether it's actually real or senility is setting in.

  55. Blimey! Has Pluck bought out Google? Is the internets falling in?


    I have never checked, just as I have never read their "Community Guidelines", but the standard thing is that you grant them permission to use your content on a non-exclusive and perpetual basis. They do not own it and they do not acquire copyright on it, although that is something which Rupert Murdoch has done or did with MySpace - whatever you put there, he owns.

    Anyway, it is something which needs some noise making over, for the simple reason that if the site consisted simply of their articles and no comments, nobody would go there.

    The comments make the site and then they feel that they can simply screw them up and toss them over their shoulder into the bin.

    The power resides with the contributors, if they operated collectively. The problem is that the collective voice seems to be whatever snivelling inanities emanate from Brussels.

    La Rit

    Thanks. It was not intended to be, exactly - or primarily. Whatever, you get my drift. It was meant as a kick in the pants.


    In saying that Hank is an inspirational poster and commentator, I am not condoning his bahaviour towards you or anyone else.

    However we choose to forgive or otherwise is up to each of us, the same as changing our behaviour.

    As Atomgirl often says to me - choose your battles.

    Oh, fuck it, I am not even making sense to myself here any more. I hope you can pick the bones out of that.

  56. atomboy
    I just posted this on WDYWTTA:

    "I'd like an article on banning of commenters on internet sites........maybe it could be called:

    "Banning commenters on internet forums: a new form of silencing freedom of speech or a necessity for forming a concensus of opinion?"

    Maybe matt Seaton could write it given he is editor of CiF still and has obvious considered the policy.....just a suggestion and maybe a commenter that has been banned.....or suspended can contest it........

  57. On a completely different note, is this just me or is something weird happening here?

    On Channel 4 News, concerning the two ten-year-old boys convicted of raping an eight-year-old girl, there have been the normal court drawings. We have seen these for years and they always look like a teenager has been given a set of pastels for a birthday present and they are having a bash at doing a few portraits, but are very sketchy about how to do eyes and noses and ears - well, anything to do with faces, really.

    Anyway, the drawings shown which included details of the children were either pixellated out or the artists scrubbed the ball of his fist over that part to smudge out the faces.


    Is a poor generic illustration of a face now so dangerously likely to be identified as someone whose face might actually look like a chalk sketch that this is necessary?

    It's like blurring a picture of a tin of baked beans because it is thought that someone could use it to identify one particular tin amongst millions, surely?

  58. Thanks, gandolfo.

    I'll pop over there later and see how it is going down.

    Got some jobs to do now for a bit.

  59. Medve thanks for the link....I shall now proceed to totally screw up my 'puter...for the umpteenth time
    whilst I'm on a technical point do you or Thauma know why my ethernet connection stopped working after I dusted the inside of my computer?

  60. Atomboy

    They are not allowed to publish anything at all that could lead to the identity of a child being made public unless the court gives leave. That includes drawings.

    By the way, you may or may not know this, but the drawings are made from memory once the artist has left the court, as they are not allowed to do them in the courtroom itself.

    My head of chambers has a drawing from a very high profile case he was involved in and it is remarkable just how much it resembles him, given the way in which it was done.

  61. Blogger does indeed seem to be Plucked: refreshing after an hour or so away, Jay's post and James's answer to it suddenly appeared, although I'd already seen James's "is this thing on?" one, and some other interspersed ones.

    Atomboy, don't know if you are aware, but there is a mass exodus of staff going on at Cif. Georgina Henry has left to edit, er, Culture or something, Matt Seaton is moving to the US to edit Cif America (and presumably be with his lovely wife), and Afua Hirsh and Henry Porter are moving on to other things.

    We can only await the odious Andrew Brown's resignation with rabid anticipation.

    Who knows what changes might take place with, especially, Matty-boy leaving. I won't hold my breath, but it can only be a change for the better ... can't it?

  62. Gandolfo - I am no hardware expert, but the innards are sensitive and should be cleaned with compressed air really....

  63. "As Atomgirl often says to me - choose your battles."
    That's a good idea.

    Well, Atomboy, this is a public site, so anyone can comment on any posts I make. Whether it's criticism, or support, I read and appreciate the response.

    I would never expect anybody to pick a side, not where my posts are concerned. If anybody does, that's their own ciabatta.

    Regarding the artists impressions - aren't they a bit patronising? "Just tell me what happened, I'll understand!", as Billy Connolly used to say about sticky-on clouds on TV weather reports.

  64. Btw, here's another way to search for banned posters' comments. Type this into the Google search bar: "HankScorpio" site:www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree (for example - substitute your own banned poster).

    Once you bring up the page, you can Ctrl-F for the poster in question.

  65. What if Andrew Brown gets chosen to wear the big pink lycra 'Captain CiF' jumpsuit in Seaton's absence, though.....?


  66. Evening all

    So the first round of public sector cuts amounts to
    £6.25billion with much worse to come in the Spending
    Review.SamCam however is demanding a new state of the art kitchen in Downing Street which 'call me Dave' is offering to pay for if ' THE COST EXCEEDS THE ANNUAL DOWNING STREET MAINTENANCE ALLOWANCE '

    --oh so that,s alright then!!

  67. James

    That makes me shudder aswell.

    He has already admitted quite freely that he will zap any comments he dislikes with his magic mod-wand (or at least encourage the mods to do so - I don't think he has da powah to do it himself.)

    Fuck knows what CiF will become if he is unleashed as ubersturmbandfuhrer...

  68. BB,

    Yeah, quite apart from the visual image, it's a frightening thought....

  69. Paul,

    SamCam can, quite frankly, go f@ck herself....!!

  70. James - OMG!!! Now I shall have nightmares!

    And Hank - if you're reading - I second (or twentieth) the call from others to write seriously about issues that concern you; that is your great talent (or certainly one of them). But what is the fucking point of insulting Montana, Habib, Scherfig et al ... surely you have much better things to say?

    Splitter. :-P

  71. Atomboy - cheers for that. Happy days. 3600 posts? What a waste of fucking effort that was.

    @jennifera - very perceptive post. Yes, I am burned out, exhausted, tired and depressed.

    As Chrissy said in Boys from the Blackstuff, "I can't even get angry anymore."

    And let's be honest, there are a few people on here who are angry, but too many posters both here and on Cif aren't really angry. They're mildly peeved at best, and use the internet to seek attention or validation.

    @habib - you turned up to tut-tut at one of my posts last week, and a few minutes later those posts were deleted. If it wasn't you who deleted them, I apologise. But I would like to know who deleted them, and for that person to explain how the deletion of posts fits in with the philosophy of this site.

    As for the rest, get over yourself, kiddo. I remember you from Cif as a fanboy. You never had an opinion worthy of the name. If the only opinion you've managed to germinate is that you don't like me because I've offended you, well, hell, that's not an opinion. It's a petulant little jerk of a sheep's knee.

  72. What if Andrew Brown gets chosen to wear the big pink lycra 'Captain CiF' jumpsuit in Seaton's absence, though.....?

    Jesus will weep James. And Its very cruel of you to share that image with us!


    I gather the Downing St kitchen is too 70's for SamCam - at least according to the torygraph. She doesn't go for the retro look.

    The gov. dept. where I work is going to have to make cuts of over 360m. Thats going to tighten a few sphincters. And those that have it (thats middle to senior managers, quite a few of whom are totally useless, time serving tossers), can kiss goodbye to their 1st class rail travel and about time too.

  73. Hank

    @habib - you turned up to tut-tut at one of my posts last week, and a few minutes later those posts were deleted. If it wasn't you who deleted them, I apologise. But I would like to know who deleted them, and for that person to explain how the deletion of posts fits in with the philosophy of this site.

    As you'll see from the thread above, posts have been magically disappearing and reappearing at random lately. I read that thread a day or two later and, as far as I could tell, the ones you were complaining about were actually there. Go back and look, but I don't think anyone deleted anything.

  74. Hi thauma - hope you're well.

    Check your chronology. Have a word with Montana and scherfig. Even habib.

  75. "If the only opinion you've managed to germinate is that you don't like me because I've offended you, well, hell, that's not an opinion. It's a petulant little jerk of a sheep's knee."

    And you have a pig face... are we any further on?

  76. Hank

    I know you say you're burned out, exhausted, tired and depressed but a little trip up to Sheffield for a few drinks with MsC, Thauma, Bitterweed, me, and perhaps even one or two others might cheer you up a bit. After all you enjoyed the last one. So come up, why don't you?

  77. Hank - cross-post!

    I am well, thanks, and I hope you are too. (Sheffield?)

    Look, you, Montana and Scherfig are all passionate in your opinions - and that's a good thing. On balance. But when there's a disagreement it turns into an unholy row amongst people who agree on 95%+ of most things; the difference becomes the conversation, which rapidly degenerates into insults. This is why the left gets defeated by the right, who manage to bury their differences and unite.

    And I really don't understand how Habib got dragged into it.

  78. Just reading up on the case of the two boys who have been found guilty of attempted rape....it's horrendous how this even came to court let alone gain a conviction as there was no forensic evidence and appears that it came to court based on the little girls initial claims which she subsequently retracted.
    What the hell were the CPS up to? What the hell was the jury doing?

    Hi Hank nice to see you around....

  79. gandolpho

    I have no idea.

    "Doctors and nurses" is now attempted rape and sexual assault, it seems.

    I find this conviction very very worrying. And Michelle Elliot of Kidscape agrees.

  80. gandolpho

    It is pretty iniquitous that such young children are tried in an adult court, I agree. Although I can't say I've been following the case, I heard on the news tonight that the little girl only retracted after being asked very leading questions by the defence brief.

    I don't think we'll ever know the truth of it but there should be a better way of dealing with situations like this than taking such small children into adult courts and turning it all into a voyeuristic public spectacle.

  81. BB

    'doctors and nurses' - I remember playing that as a kid and

    'I'll show you mine, if you show me yours' too.

    Could that be all it was? If so, then we have gone completely mad. Those boys are now on the sex offenders register - god help them and their families, especially if it all was just innocent play.

  82. Darlings, I must mention that I shall be popping over to Brussels in August. As I understand it, only well-bred and attractive people inhabit that fair city, but I am worried that perhaps some riff-raff might also be present.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to avoid the underclass? If I book some opera tickets, will that make me immune?

  83. Dunno about all that thauma, but the chocolate's good.

  84. Sheff - the trouble is, as a defence brief, to get to the truth you have to ask leading questions.

    I was involved in a youth case once - bunch of nice, well-spoken kids in their school uniforms accusing a bunch of rougher kids from the other side of the track of attempted robbery. They were all aged between 10 and 12 - the allegation was that we had a craft knife and had threatened them with it. But our lads were saying that the other lads had a swiss army knife as well and were cross because one of ours had taken it and thrown it over a fence. Needless to say there was no mention of this swiss army knife in any of their video interviews.

    So I ended up making this lovely little 10 year old boy cry - not by being nasty to him but actually by talking to him like I would have spoken to my own son if I thought he was lying about something important. And he came out with it - I didn't even have to say "you had a swiss army knife too, didn't you?" - all I said was "You know what it's like when you tell a lie because you think you are going to get into trouble... and then the lie becomes bigger and bigger..." etc. And he burst into tears and talked about their knife.

    Now on the basis of what has happened in this case, the prosecutor could have tried arguing that because the boys had been consistent in what they had told their parents and what they had said in their video interviews, that they must have been telling the truth and there was no knife. But after this confession, miraculously one of the other boys offered up the information without even being asked.

    I've no need to tell you about the way in which kids tell fibs if they think they might be in trouble. And I can't help feeling that this is what has happened in this case, given that she admitted in court that she had made it up. It just doesn't sit right.

  85. Many thanks, MsChin, I shall hold the excellent chocolate out like a garlic gross to ward off the undesirables. If I haven't eaten it all first.

  86. Sheff
    It's iniquitous that they were even tried at all, let alone in an adult court......

    Was it really in the public interest? And did it need to go to court at all? Having admitted that she hadn't told the truth the judge allowed the case to continue? The fact that the conviction is only based on the girl's intial claims is frightening. And lastly there is no forensic evidence...no doubt it will go to appeal and hopefully the charges will be dropped....
    These are children not adults why does the british justice system insist in applying adult law and procedures to children...if this happened in some Arabic country there'd be a public outcry......

  87. Mmmmm... belgian chocolate...arghghahgghahghghgrrrgghghgrrr.

  88. thaumaturge

    My dear if you should have the misfortune of having r a psychotic episode in Brussels it,s essential you
    keep up appearances.So get your hair done,go
    to a nail bar ,have a latte on the Avenue Louise
    and take in the wonders of nature.I,ts bliss!!!!

  89. thaumaturge

    I kid you not that was recommended by a certain
    someone on a recent MH thread-perhaps with a little
    embellishment by me.

  90. Mille remerciments, Paul. I fear that your cure sounds worse than the disease (except for the lattè, which I quite like).

    ... hair done ... nail bar ... wonders of nature ... brilliant!

  91. Oh yes, Paul, I remember that one now ... yes, any and all serious mental health issues can be solved by a nice hairdo.

  92. Thauma

    here you go waffels, the flea markets and the Manneken Pis should sort it for you...no chance of bumping into the wrong sort of person....;)

  93. Paul you forgot the attractive outfit, after all it's essential to look smart when being sectioned.

  94. And on the Old Bailey attempted rape case, there were separate assaults at different locations.

    The CPS said of the little girl:
    "She had given a clear and compelling account to the police and her account was consistent with the medical evidence and with the accounts given by other witnesses to the police". The judge said pretty much the same thing.

    Also, child protection interviews by specialist police officers are done to very strict rules - time limits which reflect age / capacity of child; use of toys to enable the child to demonstrate where / how they have been touched - they don't necessarily have the language to name those parts or understand the sexual nature of them. It's pretty difficult to get a conviction for adult sexual abuse of a 4 year old, because of the age / capacity issues of the victim. It's also pretty difficult to get a conviction for rape of a vulnerable adult.

    Would the Norwegian (?) system, where the child victim has just the one specialist advocate asking all the questions (prosecution and defence) in court be better? We've speculated before on some sort of advocate system at court for adult victims of rape, only in that case, the advocate would be there to speak for the victim whereas the Nordic (?) child advocate role is effectively one of friendly interrogator.

  95. gandolpho

    I don't think it should have gone to court either...and as i said there should be much better ways of dealing with situations like this.

    It does seem possible that this case has been sexualised in a totally inappropriate way and what used to be considered perfectly innocent exploration and play between small children is now considered to be a sex offence. how terrible things have become.

    I've got photos of my grandchildren playing naked when they were tiny which is probably an arrestable offence these days - even though it is all totally innocent.


    I definitely think you should lower the tone - the bits of Brussels I know (which isn't much and was a while ago) are not at all lofty - quite the reverse, but very good, low fun to be had there.

  96. Hank:

    And let's be honest, there are a few people on here who are angry, but too many posters both here and on Cif aren't really angry. They're mildly peeved at best, and use the internet to seek attention or validation.

    Please be so kind as to tell me how you "know" this.

  97. MrsB

    Here is the first post I ever made on CiF in response to one of your more facile statements about denying the need for women's rights to equality. Notice the me, me, me which even then you were able to convey to your adoring fans. And this on a thread following an article about there being just 6% of all board positions being occupied by women.

    And just to correct you, I have never cast any doubt on your legal status and certainly never said "And you call yourself a barrister". You've made it quite clear to all and sundry that you are one and I would be the first to praise the way you achieved it. And if there's anyone who's denigrated your achievements Mrs B it's you and not me. Here you are earlier this year:

    "A jokey throwaway line about shredders and all of a sudden I am a practising barrister making serious allegations of criminal activity. Not an anonymous poster, who happens to be a practising barrister, on a message board chewing the fat about what could turn out to be an historic milestone in constitutional affairs in our country."

    To which I responded:

    "Now I'm confused as suddenly you turn in an instant from being CiF's leading authority on all matters legal, to claiming you're little more than an anonymous poster who wants to crack a few risque jokes about the legal system.

    "But earlier on this thread you were castigating Trickyuno, Goldmine, Psalmist, Fireships, svistz, lokischild and weaselmeister on points of law and chiding them for their ignorance and contempt of them. But now you want everyone to assume you're just a "throwaway line" merchant."

    And as someone who for four years had the following quotation from John Kenneth Galbraith heading his profile:

    "There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority assailed by truth."

    .....I'd be mightily disappointed if people like you did like me, despite what we have in common.

  98. Thanks for that, Gandolfo, that could well come in handy!

    Off to bed to dream of chocolate and smart outfits with matching nails and hair.

  99. @thauma - I think it's a lot less than 95% to be honest. Hell, one of us used to be a Wall Street trader!

    Actually, I'm struggling to think of anyone on the UT who shares 95% of my views. That's not surprising really, given that most of us are Guardian readers, fully paid up members of the whole "social democracy/diversity" consensus.

    What a pile of shite that "consensus" is. It's not really surprising that I got banned from Cif given the contempt I have for that worldview.

    It's not really much of a surprise that I piss people off on here either: the RAF fanboys; the fanboys of the RAF fanboys - hi, Jay xx; the waitrose loyalty cardholders; the tired old hippies; the posters who just want to belong to a club, any club, as long as it accepts them, and if that means bullying newcomers, well, hell, yeh, we can do that...

  100. "Here is the first post I ever made on CiF in response to one of your more facile statements about denying the need for women's rights to equality. Notice the me, me, me which even then you were able to convey to your adoring fans. And this on a thread following an article about there being just 6% of all board positions being occupied by women."


  101. *smart outfits with matching nails and hair

    No, actually can't be arsed with that. More interested in Sheff's "low fun"!


  102. @medve - talk to your kids, read a book, knit yourself a cardigan. Do something more worthwhile than posting on here. You're a sad boring person looking for approval.

  103. thaumaturge/jennifera

    And the follow up was that the Belgian town of Geel
    is renowned for its progressive attitude to MH care.
    So i assume it must be choc a bloc with beauty parlours,
    boutiques,nail bars and tanning salons.

  104. Thauma

    More interested in Sheff's "low fun"!

    Will tell you about that on the 5th.

  105. This comment has been removed by the author.

  106. Hank: Even Bittette's posts stay up on UT, so why in the name of Zod would anyone want to delete yours?

  107. MsChin

    Wher children are involved, I would be all for adopting a more scandanavian approach to what, in adults, would be criminal offences.

    I really do think that under the age of 13 it should be a matter for social services, not the criminal justice system.

  108. Hi BB - why am I getting "sad and boring"?

    You "hate to say it". Well, toots, don't say it.

    Was it the line about "Waitrose loyalty cardholders" which offended you?

    Heh, middle class liberals. They don't like it up em, do they?

    Fucking hypocrites xx

  109. Actually, I hated to say it so much that I deleted it before I had seen your reply.

    I don't have a waitrose loyalty card, so, no, I didn't take that to mean me. I thought I was the old hippy.

  110. HankScorpio:

    "But I would like to know who deleted them, and for that person to explain how the deletion of posts fits in with the philosophy of this site.

    Oh come come Mr Scorpio, this site has become the refuge of the friends of CiF's moderators.

  111. OMG. OMFG (-: I've just realised why BB's getting a bit tetchy....

    I've been getting so much attention on here today. And yesterday.

    So many posts on here from my fans and also from those misguided trolls who don't appreciate me. All those posts using up bandwidth which could be better used paying tribute to our very own Judge John Deed.

    Grow up, BB. As you said yesterday, you're only here because I'm here. So let's not make it all about you, eh?

  112. Hank

    I've met you, albeit only once and I know that you're intelligent, funny and good company, even when well pissed. What I can't put together is the person I met and the person who only ever comes back to the UT to have a hack at people because of what he perceives to be rightly or wrongly, their insufficiently serious commitment to changing the shitty system we exist in.

    Aren't things quite bad enough already without those of us who are all pretty much on the same side sniping and bitching at each other?

    Come up to sheffield and have some fun.

  113. This comment has been removed by the author.

  114. Hi Bitey, nice to see you. I'm guessing all the paedophilia websites are closed at the moment.

  115. @sheff - I enjoyed it too.

    As for the "sniping and bitching" - I like a row and I won't back down. Don't pretend I started half of the rows I get into here.

  116. @medve - yeh, great post.

    Let's all post in Dutch.

  117. Hank

    I like a row and I won't back down.

    OK then - come up to Sheffield on the 5th June and we'll have a real stand up, knock down row, I dare you!!

  118. That's right Hank. I'm cring into my beer right now because everybody loves you more than they love me.

    You silly sod. :p

  119. This comment has been removed by the author.

  120. BB: Perhaps we should just leave Hank here to converse with his new-found friend Bittette.

  121. This comment has been removed by the author.

  122. "BB: Perhaps we should just leave Hank here to converse with his new-found friend Bittette."

    Oh for Christ's sake.

  123. Ooh! a nasty moderator has deleted Hank's latest brilliant offering!

  124. Piss off medve. You add nothing at all of value. You're a little parasite.

  125. bloody hell jessica reed in response to an exchange between me and jayreilly said:
    "That said if you have any propositions on how to shift our readership to the left - I am listening..."
    bloody twat she's the bloody journo and a comissioning editor and she doesn't know how to shift the readership to the left......

  126. Excellent opinion piece from Ken McDonald in the times on the kids' rape case. Millions of people are being invited to see David Cameron’s fresh administration as a promising start, as an agent of progressive reform. Impossible to imagine just two weeks ago, there’s a palpable sense today that the mantle of modernity may have shifted. Let’s see if this is true: let’s see if we dare do now what Labour was too spineless to manage. Let’s see if the new Government can face down the madness of a criminal justice arms race that packs our courts with youngsters without making any of us the slightest bit safer — and without making any of them taller citizens for the future. Let David Cameron and Nick Clegg seize the courage to bring us a great and generous reform.

  127. Mr Scorpio your Hi Bitey, paedophilia jokes were almost funny the first time but now they're just a reminder of how unoriginal you really are when you're not being seriously political. Kind of one track mind rather than the polymath you'd like us to think you are.

    So just for the record when I'm in China it's to recruit students whose parents want them to attend British educational institutions. Nothing so glamorous as the honey pots of Thailand I'm afraid, about which you seem to know more about than me.

  128. Gandolfo,

    "That said if you have any propositions on how to shift our readership to the left - I am listening..."
    bloody twat she's the bloody journo and a comissioning editor and she doesn't know how to shift the readership to the left......

    I'm guessing Seaton's got all the maps stuffed down his cycling shorts....

    And then something about burnt bridges and whatnot too....

  129. Hi Bitey, you seem a bit tetchy tonight. Has the price of ladyboys shot up?

  130. Hi Hank

    "Fucking hypocrites"

    Like sending your boy to private school and then railing at "middle class tossers", that sort of hypocrisy? I know, pathetic isnt it... xx

  131. @gandolfo - heh, like Jess, Cif or the GMG is interested in a left-wing readership. They've been creaming their designer knickers about the Big Society.

  132. BB

    They are not allowed to publish anything at all that could lead to the identity of a child being made public unless the court gives leave. That includes drawings.

    Yes, I know this but my point was that I have never yet seen a drawing which really gives any more details than, for example, "female, light hair" or "black person, perhaps male, possibly a youth."

    However, it has to be said that tallying faces and names remains uncharted territory for me and if you said your head of chambers was sketched sufficiently well to be recognised, I shall accept that.

  133. Evening all

    Back in the early 90,s that dreadful harridan Ann
    Widdecombe-her with the laundry bag up her chest-
    toyed with the idea of introducing legislation
    that gave child offenders a 'clean slate' when
    they turned 18 provided they hadn,t re-offended.

    If people can get past their understandable hatred
    of what Widdecombe stands for i think there is
    actually something to be said for that proposal.
    I do agree with many of the points made in the earlier discussion upthread but i like the idea that kids who have fcuked up in effect get a second chance
    when they reach adulthood.Because a criminal record
    as a minor can still screw up your life chances as
    an adult.

  134. Hi Jay - are you suggesting I sent my son to private school?

    You're wrong, of course. Badly wrong. Way way wrong.

    But fair play to you for expressing an opinion.

  135. HankScorpio said...

    "Hi Bitey, you seem a bit tetchy tonight. Has the price of ladyboys shot up?"

    No as I understand their posts on HankScorpio'sboysandme.com, everytime you spend a little time here they don't get any of your patronage so the price they can command goes down.

    And why is it Hank that you got this prejudice against male-to-female transgender persons?

    Something psychological is it or is it just good old fashioned ignorant British bigotry?

  136. Paul

    They have a system like that in the States where, effectively, at the age of 18 an application can be made to have the juvenile files "sealed".

    I still think the scandanavians have a better way of dealing with it though. We are still positively victorian in the way we mete out vengeance on kids too young to fully understand the consequences of their actions.

  137. I don't care if it costs me 100p for every comma farthing or fart in between....on this nonsense tariff I'm on. I wish to comment.....

    Scorpio - save only that Sheff/MsChin/PCC/thauma/Annetan42 ask me to stay away for fear of my rampant flirting or broken cock...............I'll be in Sheffield...... come, I'll buy you a beer or several

    lets address the question of who blinks first. And more significantly the unresolved question of false memory.

    Oh for Christ's father's Uncle's sake - I hope you join us.

    You do need to answer Paul's question of last night (in response to your own claim) - man you on poppies as you said?

  138. "You're wrong, of course. Badly wrong. Way way wrong."

    If i am i apologise sincerely, i was just under the impression you said (ages ago) that in fact you had sent your kid to private school.

    I'm happy to express opinions Hank and always have been - I dont think your idea of me as a waddya luvvie is actually supported by my posting history in the slightest. I'm not even sure which views of mine you find so objectionable - you've never made clear. So we just go through this tiresome chore every few weeks...

  139. Here's JayReilly at his very best with such passion and accuracy:

    "The audacity of the NuLab cronies is simply off the scale. You clearly live in another world, Hazel, a world where people have respect for your government, trust, admiration, and all the other qualities that the people should have for the people that lead them. Instead, you are despised. This is because you have shown yourselves to be a little band of crooks who have engaged in illegal invasions, lied to parliament, lied to the people, turned your back on the roots of your party, pushed Britain into a de facto one party state with your remarkable embrace of Thatcherism, you have been mired in corruption and sleaze, sold peerages, allowed private firms to run public services with the disgrace that is PFI, you have had a total open door policy at our borders and then cried 'racist' at dissenters, sold the WWC down the river, instigated an enormous raid on peoples liberties, setup the most pervasive surveillance state in history, trumpeted a multiculti policy that ended when British citizens blew up commuters on our tubes, led us into the heart of an economic disaster with your 'light touch' pandering to the demands of your buddies in business, and you have the bare faced nerve to come on this site and accuse the media and bloggers of creating the cynicism levelled at you and your cronies?

    "If there was any justice in the world you would be sacked immediately for this utterly shameless little piece, how dare you lecture anyone?"

    Without this kind of post we might have ended up with five more years of Gordon Brown.

  140. "And Hank - I do hope your son, whom you sent to be educated in the super middle-class Austrian resort of Innsbruck"

    That was Bru's comment, Hank, not mine. Was she wrong? Where did she get that idea from?

  141. I went to a comprehensive, Jay, as did my lad. I have posted numerous arguments on Cif, which might be accessible through a link upthread, about my contempt for the ability to get better education or health care by paying for it.

    I'm amazed that you've never read those posts or, if you have, to have forgotten them when you formed your opinion of me.

    As for my opinion of you as a waddya luvvie - I'm an old-fashioned kinda guy. I think that we go to work to work. I think we should get paid a decent day's pay for a decent day's graft. My Dad was a shop steward but he worked hard. I inherited a work ethic from him.

    I don't think that people should go to work and spend all day spouting shite on the internet.

    My opinion, FWIW, Jay, is that you're a dilettante. Kiz and Bru are also. Time-wasting bourgeois wankers who should be working, not spouting their half-arsed "thoughts", such as they are, on the internet.

    It really fucking makes me laugh to see how many wankers spend their time on Cif bemoaning the state of the economy, oblivious as they are to their culpability.

    As for going through this tiresome chore every few weeks, put a fucking shift in every now and again, Jay.

    It's not as if the country will fall apart if you and kiz and Ally don't give us the benefit of your views on the biscuit-based nature of Jaffa Cakes.

  142. Your database strikes again Bitey, you run a tight ship...

  143. Jay - if I recall the kid was there at worst on an extended visit.

    I would trust Bru's perception of reality as of the same order as my left small toe's ability to signal the difference between monday and Tuesday to my right big toe.

    Not reliable - IMHO

  144. Jay - my lad did a degree in German and French. He spent his third year in Innsbruck.

  145. Jay, credit where credit's due - you've made some remarkable posts in your time, some of which should be given an airing every now and then.

  146. atomboy - comrade you are a star.

    Thank you for opening the Scorpio archive - if now the cunt doesn't copy and save his contribution the argument is made .............the man be a wanker.

  147. Hank - address the enquiry at 22.50

    'You on the poppies or not'?

    You don't have to do it tonight Comrade - but best remember careless use of language costs reputations.


  148. Is this the five minute arguement or the full half hour?

  149. Hank

    I,ve deleted a couple of posts from last night.
    Careless talk and all that.

  150. @deano - I don't need to answer your questions.

    I'm not interested in what you think of me, deano, nor am I interested in what Jay or Swifty or medve thinks of me.

    There's maybe half a dozen posters on here who's views I respect. They will know who they are on the basis of my responses to them.

    The rest of you can take me or leave me. It realy doesn't matter.

  151. Hank - did you send your kid to a "super middle class school in Austria, Innsbruck"?

    That was the question, I'm not asking where you or your dad went to school.

    "My opinion, FWIW" - not much these days, sadly, you spend most of your time bitching.

    So i have no work ethic because i post on cif a lot - i have worked continuously since i was 16, i worked throughout college, i didnt go to uni but went to work full time instead (and i wasnt lacking for grades) - a call centre making 250 calls a day, then went and got a well paying job in London off my own back without any hand ins or contacts whatsoever.

    Then i started my OU degree on top of full time work.

    I understand work ethic, my mums whole side of the family are working class and it was largely my mum who persuaded me to work instead of going to uni.

    The difference between my parents, you and me is that you all work public sector - i work private, i work for a millionaire. Why should i do a minute more work than is necessary for him?

    I'd like a high paying public sector job like yours hank but its not so easy when you havent got a degree - options are a little limited, employers dont like it.

    It makes me laugh how someone like you, a serious non dilletante superman, can think that a few thousand ciffers made the blindest bit of difference to the economy's current condition.

    I think i have joined in two discussions of Jaffa cakes - it probably that that fucked the economy i spose.

    "It's not as if the country will fall apart if you and kiz and Ally don't give us the benefit of your views on the biscuit-based nature of Jaffa Cakes."

    The funny thing is that i dont think my posts make the blindest bit of difference to anyone, but you do - you post this infantile bitching after a few beers and think you're saving the world with your gargantuan intellect.

    Of all the political activity you could be engaged in, you spend time bitching about me, kiz and bru. Surely you can see how pathetic that is?

    Did you send your kid to Innsbruck?

  152. Chekhov - saw me bro in law tonight he thinks he saw your dad lay for L Utd but not 100% he will ask for comments in a pub of older Leeds fans next week.

    He did drink in John C's pub ....and found him like everyone says a gentle and decent giant. He seems to think that JC died of Alz's.

    This may be the 19/11 and three farthings row......(but don't hold your breath)

    Hope you can make it to Sheff.

    Regards deano.

  153. "There's maybe half a dozen posters on here who's views I respect. They will know who they are on the basis of my responses to them.

    The rest of you can take me or leave me. It realy doesn't matter."

    The feelings mutual, i assure you. But i assume you think otherwise, you think we do care otherwise you wouldnt bother telling us for the 30th time. So just to clear that one up - i dont give a shit what you think of me because you know next to nothing about me.

    I dont know much about you either, but what i do know is that you think its big, "angry" and radical to write endless tirades about 3 irrelevant bloggers on the internet - if you didnt take yourself so seriously you might even see the funny side.

    (point taken on Innsbruck - my mistake.)

  154. @deano - I don't need to answer your questions.

    Of course you don't Hank, nor do I have to apologise to you for my inadequate existence our kid.

  155. @Jay - my lad went to university. He did a degree in French and German. It was a four year course. He was expected to spend the third year of those four years abroad in a French or German speaking country.

    He spent the year in question at Innsbruck University studying Politics amongst students and lecturers who all spoke German. He paid nothing for it.

  156. Anyway, i'm going to bed hank, 7.45 start for me - i like an early start for my jaffa cake chats...

  157. "my lad went to university. He did a degree in French and German. It was a four year course. He was expected to spend the third year of those four years abroad in a French or German speaking country."

    As above - my mistake, apologies.

  158. "I'm not interested in what you think of me, deano, nor am I interested in what Jay or Swifty or medve thinks of me."

    Wake up my fine friend if you don't know that lumping me in the same sentence as those guys is an anathema to some of them .......well what can I say save that you do a disservice to them all.

    A man is wanker or he is not - he needs no comparison with his contemporaries or anything, but the evidence.

  159. Don't apologise Jay, time was his boy'd have spent an apprenticeship down pits in order to prove his father's credentials.

  160. "..I'm not interested in what you think of me, deano, nor am I interested in what Jay or Swifty or medve thinks of me."

    I and just about everyone who reads here knows that you care not a jot.....of drunken twats like mesen

    Quite a few also know that you have something that afflicts your vision and thus reading ability for the fact of the record is that I deano hold you, young, Hank in high regard.

    An idol in contempt of his fans is often regarded as an arrogant tosser - how you plead?

    For my part what you think of me is of little moment.

    I don't suppose you would be kind enough to list those " maybe half dozen" posters who you do hold in high regard would you?

    I would be astonished if I too didn't rate them highly.

  161. "of all the political activity you could be engaged in, you spend time bitching about me, kiz and bru."

    You really don't get it, do you, soft lad?

    I regard you and your chums with contempt because you trivialise everything. You and your chums piss the day away on Cif, spouting banalities, treating everything as a joke.

    You swamp Cif with inane juvenile crap. You gang up on those who disagree with you. You defend your idiot friends.

    You treat Cif as your own personal playground. You've ruined it as a place for serious debate.

    You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

  162. deano30: I do have a plan to pitch up for the "bunfight" in Sheffield. My eldest sister is on the case, tracking down the archives right now.
    BTW Sheffpixie: I've no doubt I will be able to find the venue but I'm struggling with the geographic location of the Rutland Arms.
    There aren't many pubs in Sheffield I'm not familiar with but that one is bit of a mystery!

  163. It would be grand to see you Chekhov

    Sheff put a location map up when she first announced the venue ( ..several days ago...)

    We'll sort it before then.

  164. Hank: you don't have a monopoly on anger. You don't think anyone is as angry as you are?
    Well I'm bloody furious. However we all have different personalities and we all deal with anger in our different ways.
    You choose to rant and rave. Good for you, you do it very well and your prose is top notch.
    Some of us prefer the less corrosive approach which involves injecting some humour and having a bit of a laugh about the absurdity of it all.
    There is room for both; No?

  165. @deano -

    The Duke

  166. Hank - fine choice, all excellent

    I have no difficulty with any of them but surprised not to see the list extended to include monkeyfish and.....................quite a few others.

  167. monkeyfish isn't around, more's the pity. He bailed out cos he got bored.

    And that's the most damning indictment of this place.

  168. It's a matter of record that I voted for PCC & Rednorth as poster of the year over on CiF

    who you vote for Hank?

  169. It would be sad if MF didn't come back when he is ready and tired of his new persona. But I don't recall a resignation letter or speech, perhaps I was drunk when he declared.

    I am amazed that you didn't include the senior lady of UT Annetan for I rate the lady highly as indeed I do many others who also think Anne chimes.

    It must be something in the water in Nottinghamshire.

  170. I couldn't vote, you daft sod. I was banned.

    If I'd had a vote, it would have been a choice between the Princess and PeterGuillam.

  171. Hank stop being a fucking arse - you taught us that you simply invent a new persona on gmail and then away you go.

    I voted for PCC four times.

    Where/who the fuck do you think MF is ?

  172. G'night, deano. Pleased to see you don't bear grudges.

  173. Whatever did you think all that room101.....x was about.

  174. Hank: "monkeyfish" got bored. I think you are right on that call. I met "Monkeyfish" at a pub on Tyneside. Great bloke and had a very interesting conversation with him. He obviously decided to "move on". I've no idea where to but I'm glad I met him.

  175. Yep, chekhov, he's a top guy. I'm glad I met him too. Much missed on here and on Cif.

    I'd send out a plea for him to come back to the UT but he's obviously decided that he doesn't really fit in here anymore. He did once, and he helped make it what it was.

    Ah well, things change. And rarely for the better.

  176. Just reading back over the last few comments...Jay, my lad is my son, not my father.


  177. Oh Hank don't despair. You seem to have plenty of support on this website!

  178. Oi Scorpio!

    You need to get a grip mate.You can,t keep lashing
    out at people here-especially when so many have
    a genuine respect and affection for you.

    Putting my amateur psychologist hat on i think you
    are suffering from a common malaise.Namely an anger
    at the way things are in society at large and a
    frustration that there are no political solutions
    on the horizon.And you,re focussing that anger and
    frustration on people here because they too don,t
    have all the answers.The Left needs to be rebuilt
    from scratch,it will take time and won,t be easy.
    But we won,t achieve anything by laying into each

    Deleting your 'portfolio on Cif was unforgivable.
    But even your 'attacks'here show you have the wit
    and intelligence to replace it.So start submitting
    those killer posts again.And meet up with your mates
    in Sheffield and show them you,re still the diamond
    geezer they like and respect.

    ps As i said to you last night remind me of my own
    wise words should i ever go ballistic myself here.

    Take care mate and hopefully 'talk to you soon.

  179. BTW did anyone see the brilliant drama on BBC 2 tonight which chronicled the life of Mary Whitehouse? Julie Walters and Alun Armstrong and Hugh Bonneville were all spot on in their performances as were the rest of the cast.
    Why do the BBC slip these gems under the radar? I never saw a "trail" for this nugget of gold!