13 January 2010


Ok, sorry I'm not Montana (hope she's ok btw?) so I haven't carefully researched what happened on this day in history, I'm sure some interesting stuff did!

Anyway thought I better start a new thread for anyone who made it through the snow!


Update: medve offered some info so I thought I'd add it in here:

Galileo Galilei discovers Ganymede (1610): 400th anniversary


  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  2. Morning Thauma, looks like we posted at identical times.

  3. And of course, how could i be so dense, good morning Dot!

  4. Morning both, and thanks for the Ganymede info Medve: now I've got that song from Red Dwarf going around in my head!

  5. Morning all,

    just a quick clarification to annetan and others regarding my 'class struggle' post last night.

    You're quite right, the British working class are 'comatose'. What I meant to say is that the war against them is intensifying.

  6. Woman from the Health and Safety Executive on the radio discussing 'H&S Myths'. My favourite so far -

    "We were accused of banning fireman's poles in fire stations. What happened there was that there wasn't enough room for stairs and a pole. so they put in stairs. That seemed sensible, so they could go up as well as down..."

  7. Dot: weak effort really. If you look at Montana's entry for January 7th, you will see the four large moons of jupiter.

    wikipee says:

    On January 7, 1610, Galileo Galilei observed what he believed were three stars near Jupiter, including what turned out to be Ganymede, Callisto, and one star that turned out to be the combined light from Io and Europa; the next night he noticed that they had moved. On January 13, he saw all four at once for the first time, but had seen each of the moons before this date at least once. By January 15, Galileo came to the conclusion that the stars were actually bodies orbiting Jupiter.

  8. Philippa,

    Presumably before that there were whole breeding colonies of firemen up there, releasing individuals as necessary ?!?!!?


    Still better than my effort.........

  9. Wolfram alpha unequivocally gives today as the anniversary, and yes, the Gregorian calender was already in use in Italy at that time.

  10. I love the snow ! I just don't like peoples' arse-witted reactions to it, like leaving home at the same time as usual and expecting their tax money to have ensured a gold-plated trouble free passage to dropping the brats off and getting to work, thereby causing CHAOS everywhere. Grr.

  11. Anyone been following the google china developments?

  12. Bitterweed,

    Quite, no one seems to have any common sense, like the driver of the bus I was on this morning, who insisted on picking up everyone at every stop and ramming us all in, despite there being TWO empty buses literally right behind us. (I got on before they'd caught up, otherwise I'd've waited for the second one!).

    Of course the idiots who got on our bus when they could see the two behind were also pretty dim.......

  13. 532 Nika riots in Constantinople.
    888 Odo, Count of Paris becomes King of the Franks.
    1547 Earl Henry Howard of Surrey sentenced to death
    1602 William Shakespeare's The Merry Wives of Windsor is published.
    1610 Galileo Galilei discovers Callisto, 4th moon of Jupiter.
    1625 John Milton is admitted to Christ's College, Cambridge at the age of 16.
    1695 Jonathan Swift ordained an Anglican priest in Ireland
    1785 John Walter publishes first issue of London Times
    1830 Great fire in New Orleans thought to be set by rebel slaves
    1842 On this day Dr.William Brydon, a surgeon in the British Army during the First Anglo-Afghan War, became famous for being the sole survivor of an army of 16,500 when he reached the safety of a garrison in Jalalabad.
    1854 Anthony Foss patents the accordion
    1864 Composer Stephen Foster dies in New York at age 39, while recuperating from loss of blood from a fever-induced fall in his hotel room.
    1869 National convention of black leaders meets in Washington D.C..
    1874 Imperial Russian Government issues second decree which amended the one of June 4, 1871. The second decree instituted compulsory military conscription for the German colonists. These two decrees impelled thousands of German Russians to immigrate to North and South America.
    1883 Fire in circus Ferroni in Berditschoft Poland kills 430
    1893 British Independent Labor Party forms (Keir Hardie as its leader)
    1894 Revolution in Sicily crushed by government troops
    1906 The first radio set advertised (Telimco for $7.50 in Scientific American) claimed to receive signals up to one mile
    1910 Opera was broadcast on the radio for the first time Enrico Caruso singing from the stage of New York's Metropolitan Opera House.
    1911 South Africa's first win over Australia, at Adelaide
    1915 An Earthquake in Avezzano, Italy kills 29,800.
    1915 W Churchill presents plan for assault on Dardanelles
    1927 US & Mexico battle over oil interests

  14. Morning, all.
    Bit more on this day:

    1893 British Independent Labor Party forms (Keir Hardie as its leader where are those of his ilk now?)

    1898 Emile Zola publishes his open letter (J'accuse) in defense of Captain Alfred Dreyfus in Paris.

    1915 W Churchill presents plan for assault on Dardanelles
    (That went well, politicians doing military stuff - we never learn.)

    1968 Johnny Cash records his landmark album At Folsom Prison live at Folsom State Prison.

    Said bye bye:
    1929 - Wyatt Earp, dies at 80.
    1941 - James Joyce, dies in Zurich Switzerland, at 58

    Said hello:
    1961 - Suggs
    1977 - Orlando Bloom

  15. Dot - possibly avoiding the issue (prevalent in London at least) that if Bus#2 sees that another same-numbered bus is already at a stop, it doesn't bother stopping unless someone has pressed the button. However much you wave. Bah.

  16. I have such a selectively narrow grasp of history, BW.

    Best regards to Montana.

  17. Dotterel
    Oh yes. Bus Drivers have fare wars going on intra-firm as well as between bus companies. Its one of the many wonders deregulation has brought us. (Labour could have reveresed that deregulation you know. More Grr)

    Back to dates... on January 13th:

    1930 Mickey Mouse comic strip makes its first appearance.
    1935 Plebiscite in Saar, indicates a desire (90.3%) to join Nazi Germany
    1939 Belgian premier signs Burgos-treaty for trade relations with Franco
    1942 German U-boats begin harassing shipping on US east coast
    1942 World War II: First use of aircraft ejection seat. German test pilot in a Heinkel He 280 jet fighter.
    1943 Russian offensive at Don under General Golikov
    1954 Military rule in Egypt; 318 Mohammedan Brotherhood arrested
    1958 9,000 scientists of 43 nations petition UN for nuclear test ban
    1959 De Gaulle grants amnesty to 130 to Algerian death row convicts
    1963 Personal posting - Joe Christopher Trujillo born in Alamosa, Colorado
    1964 USS Manley evacuates 54 American and 36 allied nationals after Zanzibar government is overthrown
    1967 Coup in Togo
    1968 Beginning of Tet-offensive in Vietnam
    1969 Beatles release "Yellow Submarine" album
    1978 Former U.S. Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey dies in Waverly, Minnesota, at age 66.
    1980 Head of narcotic brigade arrested for drug smuggling in Belgium
    1986 A month-long violent struggle begins in Aden, South Yemen between supporters of Ali Nasir Muhammad and Abdul Fattah Ismail, resulting in thousands of casualties.
    1987 7 top New York Mafia bosses sentenced to 100 years in prison each
    1989 "Friday the 13th" virus strikes hundreds of IBM computers in Britain
    1991 42 killed in exhibition soccer match in Johannesburg South Africa
    1991 Soviet Union military troops attack Lithuanian independence supporters in Vilnius.
    1992 Japan formally apologizes for forcing thousands of Korean women to serve as sex slaves for Japanese troops during WWII.
    1995 Philippine authorities unearth a plot by militant Muslims to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit.
    1999 Michael Jordan announces his retirement from the Chicago Bulls (for the second and final time).jan14
    2001 An earthquake hits El Salvador, killing more than 800.
    2007 Two thirds of the Venus's southern hemisphere suddenly brightened.

  18. None of the above may be true by the way !

    - Bitterpedia

  19. Philippa/BW

    I've been in that situation before: normally the buses'll leapfrog each other (taking turns at each stop) but of course the icy roads stopped the two behind from overtaking..........

    BW I didn't know about the intra-firm fare wars (I'm talking three Stagecoach buses with exactly the same route no. here) that's just ludicrous, but explains a lot!

  20. Has anyone else noticed the disturbing cranking up of anti-Iranian sentiment at the Graun in the last 12-18 months? It has been bothering me for a while, but it seems to me that this has been almost perfectly aligned with the increased sabre rattling from Washington and London.

    The Graun likes to see itself as the moral bastion of the the weak, but it seems to me it is, knowingly or otherwise, helping lay the groundwork for yet another imperial adventure. The Graun now has near daily articles on the hideous regime of Iran.

  21. Jay, as a whopping 20% of UK frontline troops are currently unfit for combat I doubt that an invasion of Iran is imminent.

  22. There has been an increase, but I think that would only be disturbing if it is connected to 'softening us up' for military action, which I don't think it is - more disturbing, to me, was the relative paucity of coverage beforehand. After the hopes before the election, and the chaos after, an increase in articles was perhaps only to be expected - and whatever's in the news is in CIF, partly for relevance, partly for 'cut price flogging a dead horse' and limited thinking...

    That does mean of course that the quality of articles is not always tip-top, but again I think that more likely to be the regular CIF-malaise ("Does he know anything about Iran? Well, he saw Omid Djallili live last year, that'll do...) than anything else.

    [takes off optimism hat]
    I mean, you could well be right that this is a softening up exercise, but I devoutly hope you aren't
    [optimism hat back on]


  23. have just noticed that version seems to have a second track playing underneath. weird.

  24. Scherfig, I think is quite right Jay, but I, too have noticed a persistent level of attack on the Iranian government, from the Guardian.

    Years ago, I did a bit of research on the editorial stand that many newspapers took before the Suez Crisis of 1956. The Guardian stood absolutely alone in questioning the government over it's aggressive behaviour. They seem to be doing the opposite, now. I certainly don't understand why.

    Are the editorial staff now so short-sighted, even though the fifty four years since have often proved them to be right? It doesn't make sense.

  25. Bear in mind tho, Scherf, troops arent really what we give is it, we supply a small fraction of the troops but it is mainly political support, alliance, coalition, intelligence, special forces, etc. The US could invade any nation on earth without a single foreign troop helping out.

    I just cannot believe that the US and Israel do not already have reasonably meaty ideas on exactly how things would have to be done, that plans have probably been on the table for quite a long time.

    Because of this i suspect briefing against Iran is much more common, and the right wing press, particularly in the US will also be very comfortable with "laying the groundwork" and there is a sort of group mentality in the media - if somethings being covered they all want a piece.

    Hence my words "knowingly or otherwise", i dont think the Graun itself is banging the drum intentionally but i think they have easily followed the herd and the pressures mounting for action. And in practice, what they are doing (intent aside) IS banging the drum. Without question.

    Its not just the US keen for this, remember, Israel is absolutely in love with the idea too. They have already issued their statements that they will "not under any circumstances" tolerate a nuclear Iran.

    I can think of no better explanation for the Graun's overt ramping up against Iran but am open to ideas.

  26. A quick search of 'Iran articles' in the Guardian reveals

    Last 30 days (8)
    2009 (186)
    2008 (171)
    2007 (251)
    2006 (207)

    This is a fairly crude indicator, but perhaps the apparent plethora of Iran articles in the Guardian at the moment is (1) a matter of perception or (2) a short-term result of the Guardian's recent investigative journalism regarding Peter Moore being held in Iran rather than Iraq.

    Note: although the government initially denied all knowledge of the Iran connection in Moore's case, it was later revealed that British troops tried and narrowly failed to prevent him being transported over the border shortly after his kidnap.

  27. scherf,

    Playing devil's advocate, how did you do that search? (Was it for articles that so much as mentioned Iran, or only for those that were mostly or entirely about Iran, as that balance may have changed)

  28. Dot, use the Guardian search for 'Iran articles' under guardian.co.uk option. You can judge the results for yourself (all 1372 of them).

  29. I think we need to consider the nature of the article's though, Scherf, the context, and the overt tone has been "Iran is a problem, its a bad state, its dangerous, it treats its people terribly, it isnt democratic, human rights abuses" etc. All the usual messages we're now familiar with.

    I dont think its the Moore thing as it first crossed my mind quite a while ago now.

    It might be just me, i dont know, just thought i'd see what others thought.

  30. Search option under Comment is free:

    Today (1)
    Last 7 days (3)
    Last 30 days (5)
    2010 (3)
    2009 (81)
    2008 (70)
    2007 (98)
    2006 (78)

  31. Jay, do some searches (see above) and look at the articles yourself. I am unconvinced.

  32. I just did a search and from the skim i made I would say it supports the idea that the Graun line has hardened - i just do not remember this sort of rhetoric about Iran from 3 or 4 years ago, the mood has changed.

  33. Jay

    "Iran is a problem, its a bad state, its dangerous, it treats its people terribly, it isnt democratic, human rights abuses" etc.

    Some or most of those things are even true. However it does seem to me too that more "softening-up" articles are coming out lately and in no way do I think we should intervene militarily.

  34. Mornin - or rather afternoon now.

    Browsing and working in alternation. I have no discipline unless I turn the netbook off altogether, which I can't cos I am researching stuff. Gah!

    Heard some scientist on the steam radio the other morning suggesting that the frontal cortex can only do so much work at once, though, and seeing as work, stress and will-power all get sorted by the frontal cortex, the more demanding and stressful your job, the least likely you are to have "room" for will power as well.

    That is my story and I am sticking to it....

    Re Iran - I think the temperature has racked up over the past year, for sure. I have no doubt that the US and prolly the UK have "agents" in there already stirring shit up. They clearly learned nothing from 1953 - since when have governments ever looked at history with anything other than a smirk as they believe they will "get it right this time, though, eh?"

  35. Scherfig many thanks for the research, very handy to know how to do that.

    Am still pondering as to why the Guardian published that Cherie Blair piece on the plight of the Bahais.

    The persecution of the Bahais is very real indeed of course and goes back a long way - one of the first Amnesty cases I wrote about was actually an Iranian Bahia in the 70s, when the Shah was still in power, and the Guardian should have picked an Amnesty staffer or volunteer to write on the matter- getting Cherie Blair to do it was pure troll bait, and the thread rapidly got bogged down in the usual keech.

    But perhaps that was the intention - it's a safe general bet that not everyone at the Guardian is what they seem, but whatever the intention. it was a bad, bad, really bad decision with regard to getting informed about the Bahais.

  36. BB
    "(...suggesting that) the frontal cortex can only do so much work at once, though, and seeing as work, stress and will-power all get sorted by the frontal cortex, the more demanding and stressful your job, the least likely you are to have "room" for will power as well.

    "That is my story and I am sticking to it...."

    Absolutely brilliant, top notch, skive-tastic post ! I will keep that one.

    PS - got a proposition for ya - will email you later !

  37. Jay
    Hmm.. I think it's more along the lines that it's now fashionably correct to take a line against their HR abuses than it was a couple of years ago, among the kommentariat. There were many articles back then by the likes of Soumaya Ghanoush and Martin Jacques that resolutely were in denial of any Iranian abuses against gays, women, socialist activists, and it often seemed that it was only Peter Tatchell who gave a stuff about their regularly jailed and murdered trades unionists.

    That said, any military action against Iran will be, without doubt utterly disastrous, on a global scale, and I would be dismayed were ther even a hint that we were heading towards armed confrontation.

  38. Thaum

    I think most of those descriptions of Iran are true, yes, but as you say they still in no way justify action, and certainly not from the US/UK.

    Scherf - anti-Iran rhetoric was not non existent prior to 2009, no, what i am saying is the nature of the rhetoric has changed (or at least it seems that way to me).

    As an example i did the search thing and then filtered Iran down to 2006. I looked at about the first 6 pages of the results. Then i did the same search for 2009, and stopped reading after the first 3 pages of results as the difference in tone and nature seemed already apparent.

    Crude search results can be quite misleading, i might be doing the search wrong but it seems to bring up any article with the word Iran anywhere in it. When you flcik through the pages of the results tho you get a better idea of the tone and the Guardian line at the time.

    The Observer is probably similar, i dont read it to know, but as i say a herd mentality is often visible. If i read other papers i dare say the impression would be the same.

  39. Nice to see the almost unanimous pasting Blair (Ian) is getting....

  40. BW - i agree there is a shift towards the HR element of Iran included in it, but from a casual and, admittedly, inadequate skim of articles there seems now a trend emerging that its ok to attack Iran repeatedly and vigorously as if there were no wider dangers of our media doing this, no wider context.

    They (Guardian) know full well just how key the British media were in the Iraq invasion, their support was crucial, and their support was very largely centred on what a bad place Iraq was, how horrible Saddam was, etc. Which was all true, yes. But its delicate stuff, extremely delicate. They just lapped it up like puppies and the rests history.

    Should the Guardian, of all papers, not be acutely aware of a need to be very careful indeed in its reporting on Iran? Surely it knows that there are significant interests which want nothing more than a media bandwagon on what a barbaric land of evil Iran is?

    They seem to me to have lost any restraint, any wider picture, it seems careless and irresponsible at best.

    I'm sorry i cant give anything more firm, Scherf, if i get some spare time i'll try and put something together.

  41. Some real fuckwits posting on the Jim Boumelha thread, from all sides of the coin of stupidity.

  42. BW - you are so right! Unfuckingbelievable.

  43. Hi all.

    Can I ask everyone on The Untrusted who cares about the welfare reforms we have been discussing to sign the petition below. It is quite rare for petitions to number ten to reach the numbers needed for a reply and this one is close. it would be brilliant if it could get the extra forty needed!

    ''Only another 40 signatures needed before No 10 has to reply.
    Come on. One last push. Please help.

    The petition was created by Joanne Moran from National Autistic
    Society and reads:

    'We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Unfairworkfare/ ,,

    I hope that link works as a link if not if you cut and paste it into google it should take you to the right page.

    Hope Montana is okay and that the rest of the Untrusties are managing.

    We having worst day of it yet around me - not due to snow but the weird ice rain. The ground is just sheet ice - I cannot even get to my gate - very weird and quite claustrophobic. It is one thing to not go out often due to feeling crap quite another I am finding not to be able to get out even if I had to!

    A warning to Sheff and MsChin - Sheffield A&E has had massive amounts of emergency cases due to people falling on the ice that is covering much of the roads and pavements - the director of public health for the area has issued a warning re travelling - especially on foot.

  44. Just realised - it only has a couple of hundred - which means a basic reply has to be given - I got quite excited as i thought it was in the thousands which means number ten take a lot more notice. Oh well still worth signing if you agree with it.

  45. Hi PCC

    Will do.

    Also I sent you an email earlier - wasn't ignoring yours, just didn't check my BB inbox as it is not my main mail addy. x

  46. Hi Princess

    Will sign the petition.

    You're right about the icey sleet/snow - have just trudged home in it from work - left early to avoid the worst of it later on. This morning was a nightmare - cars all over my road skidding about - it was an icerink as were the pavements. Been thinking of digging out my old crampons. Or investing in a pair of those rubber overshoe thingies with spikes.

    We had a fire alarm at luchtime and had to evacuate the building. About 500 people shivering in the ice outside for about half an hour. Fortunately it was a false alarm and we got back in before people started dropping with hypothermia.

    I've been living in my 5/10s - walking boots with sticky rubber soles, but even they're no good on sheet ice.

  47. Am concerned.

    A Labour MP has an article up and I agree with him.

    What's wrong with me?

  48. PCC - I'll sign it too.

    Philippa, I partly agree with it, but yesterday's (the one he links to) was much better.

  49. thauma - aye, that was good, too. I just hadn't realised - as it was a good, clear, honest article - that he was a Labour MP.

    Have posted again on it to clarify.

    Well, there's at least two of 'em worth keeping, it's a start.

    princess - have signed.

  50. have signed, PCC.@ PhilippaB, McDonnell's was way better.Burgon's is not too bad a piece, but still in denial slightly over just how bad and weaselly NewLab have been, about the complicity of certain papers (McDonnell's line about a fickle coterie of Guardian journalists guaranteeing nauseatingly uncritical coverage must have caused some in Guardian towers to have spluttered)and is still loyal to the unrealistic Brown line (which even darling rejects) about not needing to cut.

  51. Hiya! Also home early 'cos of the weather.

    princessc & sheff

    Signed the petition. You're right about the ice - it was treacherous round here this morning. The Sheffield outer ring road was closed at one point. People were walking in the road because the pavements were so icy but it was risky trying to drive past them.

    Just posted something on Waddya about single people on benefits getting no help with cold weather heatings costs. The weather has triggered 2 payments so far, but these people get nothing. Bloody disgrace in this day & age that people have to freeze while the bankers draw billions in bonuses again.

  52. Alisdair - indeed, another reason why I didn't clock what his day-job was!

  53. Prefer McDonnells straight forward attacking style - Burgon might be moving in the right direction but I get the feeling he's still hedging his bets, which isn't something McDonnell can be accused of.

  54. MsC
    After I saw that fat bastard on the news last night who said (smugly) that even his parents thought he earned too much - I decided to give the bankers stuff a wide berth- It just makes me too furious.

    Agree about the cold weather payments. Looked at the weather forecast for Sth Yorks - looks as though there'll be more ice tomorrow morning, then it will get a couple of degrees less cold on Friday. with luck we're over the worst now.

  55. Sorry if I was 'fattist' in my last post....hangs head....

  56. sheff

    Not strictly fattist, as it was a 'fat cat bloated on our wonga' kind of comment.

    Besides, 'obese' is the new 'fat', isn't it?

  57. Hey BB will check my mail.

    Sheff - that sound awful being stuck outside in this. It is so strange outside - we still had a quite thick layer of snow and the whole thing is literally a thick sheet of ice now. You cant get a grip at all. I think crampons are a good idea!

    Still it is forecast to melt a bit over the weekend with heavy rain (heavy rain and melting snow hhmm can anyone foresee any other possible problems?).

    But it is going to get cold again next week.

    Will check out the article Philippa - could do with a shock!

  58. princessc

    Apparently A&E saw 100 people in 3 hours - must have been manic at the Northern this morning.

    I really hope that these Women of Steel are successful in their campaign for recognition.

  59. Brilliant piece on R4, at 5.20, about the Women of Steel, Sheffield lasses to be proud on.

  60. MsC

    Just heard that on the news - coming a bit late in the day though! Apparently they've been given letters of 'thanks' from the MOD and Downing St. GB must think it politic to take some notice!

    There's an exhibition at Kelham Island - should be worth a visit. I know there's a photo archive.

  61. Yes, just heard it! Lovely interview too

    "I got halfway up a wall and then froze - took some doing to get me down..."

  62. btw, some of the women who became crane drivers in the steelworkers stayed on after the war. The men & women even had a crane drivers' Poets Circle in one of the firms.

    If the ice clears soon, sheff, maybe we could take a gander at the Kelham exhibition?

  63. sheff & princessc

    Just had an idea - do you think we could start a campaign to get Vulcan (top of the town hall) replaced with a buffer girl?

    Speaking of the buffer girls, I love this film.

  64. MsC

    Back in the 80's I took some photos of what remained of the 'Little Mesters' workshops at the back of West St. I've posted one of Ivy James in her workshop up on the UT photo page if you're interested.

  65. MsC

    Meant to say - I'd love to get together for the Kelham Island exhibition.

  66. That's a fab photo, sheff.

    It's amazing how many of the old Sheffield firms' premises have been erased by 'regeneration'. There's a traditional wood turners which made handles for tools, Woodware Repetitions Ltd, on Mowbray Street, although it was set up after WW2. It makes tools for specialised trades today. My grandad hand-filed ice skate blades when I was a kid. He was one of the last skilled hand-filers in the city & retired in his 80s.

  67. I wouldn't want to be living at the top of one of thon hills in Sheffield with the snow, that's for sure. Maybe they should instal ski lifts - the kind with the bar behind the bum - to pull you up?

  68. Hi everybody,
    Hope Montana you are doing well?
    I guess I missed the whole hoopla about Mrs Blairs thread. I feel bad that the poor Bahai's case got shafted by the fact it was CB writing on their behalf.

  69. BB

    Funnily enough, the old double decker buses were famous for getting around Sheffield in all weathers, according to my mum. Ski lifts are one solution - maybe I'll put it to my local councillor.

  70. Anyone heard from Montana? Just wondering if she's stranded somewhere.

  71. Edwin

    Montana responded to an email I sent last night, so I assume she was OK then. I was wondering about the weather at Cowpat Junction being connected to her not putting the thread up here today, as I'm sure she said it was due to get even worse?

  72. Mchica

    I think we all felt that CB did not do justice to the cause.

  73. Scherf - anti-Iran rhetoric was not non existent prior to 2009, no, what i am saying is the nature of the rhetoric has changed (or at least it seems that way to me).

    Jay, you'll need more evidence to support your theory. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. fwiw, I see no real change in the Guardian line over the last five years. Surprise me!

  74. Philippa

    thauma - aye, that was good, too. I just hadn't realised - as it was a good, clear, honest article - that he was a Labour MP.

    Perfectly understandable!!

  75. On the more absurd side of this valley of tears, two news stories from Denmark.

    1. Sex with animals - Dyrenes Venner (animals' friends>) claim that people have sex with animals every day and that there are animal brothels in Denmark. They want this to be illegal. They have some good slogans - 'Animals are not sex-toys! and 'Animals can't say No!'

    2. The burka - about 6 months ago the conservatives here proposed making wearing the burka illegal. A 69-page government research paper has now been published (at great expense) and it appears that there are THREE women in Denmark who wear a burka (OK there might be 16 or 17, but let's ban it anyway).

  76. Well, scherfig, do you not think sex with animals *should* be illegal?

    The burqa thing certainly sounds like overkill given the numbers.

  77. scherfig

    1) Pass the sick bucket, please

    2) We need to set up the UT research company pronto, there's obviously money to be made in Denmark. We'd need an international consultant from the USA, for starters.

  78. thauma, I was more intrigued by the concept of 'animal brothels'. If that's not capitalist neo-con philosophy in action, then I dunno what is (make money out of everything, no morality, you can fuck my privatised hamster for a fiver). For the record, I'm against sex with animals, whether in a loving relationship or as part of a monetary transaction.

  79. OK, Scherf, funny, but do you think there *are* animal brothels? If so, that is truly disgusting.

  80. Have just heard from Montana - she's not feeling very well at the moment, hence her absence.

  81. Hey Mchica.

    I confess I was one of the people ranting about Cherie Blair yesterday too. The Baha'is deserve a better spokesperson.

    Animal brothels? What is wrong with people?

    And the Burka banning is a bit of a joke in the circs.

  82. I'm also against sex with vegetables.

    night on earth

  83. Scherfig, I'm afraid to click on that link.

    I'm agnostic on the subject of sex with vegetables, but my surgeon friend who did her internship in A&E tells me that women having sex with vegetables can have insalubrious consequences. (Sometimes the vegetables break....)

  84. Lord above,

    I innocently log on to say I've registered on pcc's petition to find a discussion about sex with animals and vegetables.

    I'm sure there are more specialist chat rooms you can log on to for those discussions ;)

  85. thauma, if you click on the link, you won't regret it. Jim Jarmusch on top form, and Roberto Benigni before he became, well, Roberto Benigni.

    It's very funny.

  86. scherfig
    - Prescribed UT viewing I think we once agreed ! Great fun ;-)

  87. While we're on a veggie based topic, here's my favourite song about vegetables. By the Beach boys, helpfully entitled vegetables

    It's recorded at the time that Brian Wilson went completely and utterly hatstand.

    And here's an interesting fact, fact fans. The percussion is none other than Paul Mcartney munching on a carrot!

  88. scherfig

    "I'm also against sex with vegetables."

    It didn't end well with Cherie then? Did she scar you for life?

  89. Indeed, bitterweed. Should be seen by all UT'er's. We can still take ourselves really seriously on the odd occasion, can't we?

  90. fish, the vegetables were never an issue with Cherie. Her view was that they should always be a la julienne rather than boiled to fuck for two hours a la working class. I had no problems with that.

  91. "make money out of everything, no morality, you can fuck my privatised hamster for a fiver"

    Brown wooes the CBI conference...

  92. "make money out of everything, no morality, you can fuck my privatised hamster for a fiver"

    Brown wooes the CBI conference...

    That made my diet coke go up my nose!

  93. By the way has anyone else seen the large number of posts, mainly on mental health but also on other topics by the lady who goes by the name disordered? There's a touching element in there,some real pain, but also something that's coming across as, well, not quite right.I've worked in mental health now for well over a decade and have used MH services (including a voluntary in-patient spell)and while what she says bears some resemblance to things I've both seen and heard, it's almost like it's an amalgam of all of the worst facets of all of the horror stories I've heard in my years running drop-ins, doing outreach, running groups, going on to wards etc (with no signs of good stuff/treatment happening ever, and some contradictions/inconsistencies in different posts by her) . I wouldn't like to cast doubt on what is her truth, but there's something I can't quite put my finger on that unsettles me with her posts.

  94. Alisdair

    disordered's profile suggests she has a cause.

  95. PCC - have signed petition.

    Alisdair - agree about disordered - she said she works for Shelter but seemingly has very little, if any, knowledge of homelessness law - she's also slated people for using the term 'mental illness', but on one thread referred to people 'in the nuthouse' - definite inconsistencies and as you say, slightly unsettling.

    Just read the discussion about Imogen's mini- skirt on WDYWTTA. Ugh.

  96. Alisdair, I lost patience with disordered a long time ago. Although I think that she really believes all the things that she says, it's not something that one should take seriously, although some people do, and that can be quite dangerous. She said this quite recently:

    I keep informed on the behaviour of the people who worked in the mental hospital and you would not believe what they get up to and what disastrous personal lives they have. Angels they are not!

    Because of my family and friends who work in mental health, I found that very insulting. However, there was no point in responding. The woman is not well.

  97. scherf

    Are you on the sauce tonight? Sex with animals and vegetables - thats a bit profligate isn't it? As for animal brothels...idea leaves me speechless really.
    Clip was funny though.

  98. alasdair

    There is a lot of agressivity going on at times, for sure. I am not quite sure what to make of her tbh.

  99. Nite all, ridiculously early start tomorrow.

  100. OK, scherfig, will have a look in a mo.

    Meanwhile, this is mildly (and I do mean mildly) amusing.

  101. If part of disordered's cause, or dholliday's, is picking imogen up for her trite attention-seeking, vacuous crap on waddya, then it's as worthy a cause as any on there.

    Jeez, what a fucking circus that place has become. What do we want to talk about? Ourselves! What could be more important?

    Imogen posted something on there today about getting fed up with returning to the thread to be confronted with more insults.

    Solution is, imo, to starve your enemy of ammunition.

    With due respect to those on here who got nominated for Ciffer of the Year, it's interesting to note that every nominee, with the exception of the two right-wingers, are regulars on there.

    Cosy little club, isn't it? Like the Cambridge Union without the anger.

    Get well soon, Montana.

    See y'all soon.

  102. sheff, no sauce unfortunately. Moments of absurd clarity perhaps. I am merely commenting on what is going on in the real world. Take it or leave it, ignore it, laugh at it. It does exist and it won't go away.

  103. Schefig, that was sick. And very funny. Poor Lola!

  104. scherfig

    I wonder how widespread the (alleged) animal brothel phenomenon is? And who are the customers for this service? Are the punters just blokes or is there gender parity in the clientele?

    I mean, I could google for the info but I dursn't, guv.

  105. thauma

    Yep, really funny. And brings a whole new meaning to the expression 'might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb'.

  106. thx, thauma, but I saw that a week ago. btw, did you know that Kirk McCambley was named by a commenter on YouTube (one of the gay activist anti-Iris sites) 24 hours before the press printed the story. I am constantly impressed by investigative cutting-edge journalism and the things they dare to say eventually (even when everyone else knows anyway).

  107. er, hello & goodbye again, hank?

  108. Scherfig - a week ago! How quick these people are. No, I didn't know that McCambley was named then either.

  109. Animal brothels! After PETA sets them straight, the only progression is going to be animal sex robots.
    Good to know that MW has been in touch.
    MsChin and BB it was only normal to have a hoopla over CB writing that article, a straight forward case of a wind up.

  110. I don't really want to get into this but facts are sacred and we have a right to know...

    Tyskere, svenskere, nordmænd og hollændere kommer hertil for at have sex med blandt andet heste og hunde.
    (Germans, Swedes, Norwegians and Dutch travel to Denmark to have sex with (along with other animals) horses and dogs.

    news article 2006

  111. Chin - hope the job application goes as you wish.

    Montana - hope all well with you and your son.

    PCC - \0 signed along with others .

    Sheff - it's the bastards who are having sex with minerals that you have to watch out for...

    thauma - better luck with the stiffie tonight!

    Bastards my visit to a hospital last fri has left me infected with germs, flu like bug is griping me head and nose.

    Regards all.

  112. Hi deano!



    OK, I believe you!

  113. Hi deano, will there ever come a time when you occasionally acknowledge that I exist? Just curious, I don't care that much.

  114. I care - Scherf I always read you carefully and think about what you say, but as I understand it you ain't a lass?

  115. Deano

    Hot toddy and keep warm, me love.

    And ignore that Scherfig. He just posts articles about sex with animals. :p

  116. LMFAO!

    Deano - you mean you only talk to the ladies?!! :D:D:D

  117. Scherf - what I did think about Cherry B and the discussion yesterday was that the Cow carried a Labour Party Card in her own right.

    She stands convicted on her own card and membership as well as by some guilt with association with silence.

    I didn't see her amongst the many who objected to the war.

  118. deano, don't be sexist! Anyway, how do you know that I'm not a lass?

  119. Hi Deano, no chance tonight, I'm afraid! Friday if I'm lucky.... Hope you're well! Like your response to Scherfig too.

    Scherfig, those Danes are clearly perverts. I advise you to abscond before it affects you too.

  120. @mschin et al - have had a fairly miserable coupla days. Pretty sure I'm not the only one on here who's had the same shitty time, however unintentional on either side.

    But yeh, I'm walking away now for good.

    Thanks to all for your company, your support, youtube links, virtual friendship etc.

    Take care all x

  121. Hank

    Come to the Midlands meet-up. Please.

  122. "But yeh, I'm walking away now for good."


  123. Give it some thought, Hank. Maybe a break for a while?

    We will miss you. :(

  124. It would seem that my comments on Cherie Blair have been misunderstood. To make it quite clear - I despise Cherie for her support for/belief in/silence on the Iraq war. What I object to is especially BB and Jay's (and others) criticism of her as a puppet who cannot think for herself and who should have divorced Tony as soon as the first shot was fired. This is absurd 'logic' which is driven by personal dislike of both her and Blair (albeit justified dislike). If you cannot 'judge' a public figure without reference to his/her partner, then where is the gender/sex equality that so many 'liberals' pretend to profess?

  125. Don't leave Hank shit on the shoe ain't that bad. It can be scraped away.

    You make a valuable contribution here. In my view you and others have an important educational contribution to make, I don't always agree with you but you often cause me to pause and think (as too does scherf).

  126. Scherf

    I was judging her by her inability to talk sense which mysteriously materialised as soon as her husband was elected. She made the choice. It isn't sexism, it is spotting the phoney.

  127. scherfig

    Is CB is the only PMs spouse to come under fire thus? I don't recall Norma Major or Mr Thatcher being criticised in the same way.

  128. I was judging her by her inability to talk sense which mysteriously materialised as soon as her husband was elected.

    BB, so you are familiar with her various public pronouncements and views prior to 1997? Enlighten me, please.

  129. Got to go, guys, early start tomorrow & all those icy roads to look forward to.

    Good night

  130. hmschin, you've just pointed out the elephant in the room. Norma Major or Dennis Thatcher or Mary Wilson or Audrey Callaghan were not castigated and attacked for their spouse's political failings. Why Cherie Blair?

  131. Nope. I know she was a bloody good employment and equal ops lawyer, though, with some landmark cases against the government.

  132. Because she is the only one who bathed in her spouse's limelight and sold her soul for a few extra minutes' publicity?

    We don't hear much about Sarah Brown, do we?

  133. Because she is the only one who bathed in her spouse's limelight and sold her soul for a few extra minutes' publicity?

    That is of course a value judgment. So you don't like her - case closed?

    (btw I don't like her either, but I dislike hypocrisy and double standards more.)

  134. Scherf - please to excuse me I have that tight metal band around the head feeling that comes with flu like things.

    "If you cannot 'judge' a public figure without reference to his/her partner, then where is the gender/sex equality that so many 'liberals' pretend to profess?"

    My simples view of CB was that she went beyond the notion of the by standing partner. She sought a Labour seat before Blair himself and she certainly benefited, in the early days ( as did Tony), from briefs from the wider labour movement.

    With the best will in the world I cannot see her as an innocent at large. Thus I do not think she is entitled to the benefit of the what would be a double doubt if I allowed her to hide from critics on the grounds of sexism.

    My natural inclination is not to hold the son guilty of the fathers sins - but Tony's dad was an active Tory...

    Night friends.

  135. Hypocrisy and double standards? And it's me making the value judgments? :o)

    Sometimes you would argue black is white and red is no colour at all just because you feel like arguing.

    Whatevs. I love you anyway.

    Night night all - school tomorrow x

  136. Animal brothels? We're never using that cattery again...

    More seriously, re: disordered, she may seem to have contradictions but I've been reading her stuff from the beginnin (I think) and it rings true to me. I mmay not always agree with her, but I think I can understand her POV - eg I do not agree with her antipathy towards describing depression as a 'mental illness', but given that her history (as described) is that she was committed as a result of issues resulting from abuse in the home, I understand her view that this is something that was 'done to her' rather than something she 'just' suffers from.

    She can cycle, sure enough, but that again rings true. The issue of her current work is not something I know enough about (although I'd observe that if one was, for example, the accountant for a homelessness charity one wouldn't necessarily have the first clue about the relevant law) but her view of mental health workers, given her personal experience (as described), may not be right, objectively on a macro level, but may well be true to her experiences.


    Ex's birthday today. Could smack him. You think they've gone, so you've moved on, and then they get too cuddly saying thanks for their present, and you could really smack them. Anyway...

  137. "What I object to is especially BB and Jay's (and others) criticism of her as a puppet who cannot think for herself and who should have divorced Tony as soon as the first shot was fired."

    I think the reverse is true, Scherf, if people thought she were a puppet as you describe they WOULDNT expect her to leave him, she would just be his little lady. Its precisely because she is independent, intelligent and well versed in law that to go on with him bathing in that ill gotten money when she knows exactly what went on is unforgivable.

  138. deano, I basically agree with much of what you say. But there seems to be a serious misconception here about what I am actually saying about Cherie Blair. You say 'With the best will in the world I cannot see her as an innocent at large.' And you say 'I do not think she is entitled to the benefit of the what would be a double doubt if I allowed her to hide from critics on the grounds of sexism.'

    Where the fuck have I said anything like that? I do not see her as an innocent at large. I do not think that she is entitled to any benefit of doubt on the grounds of sexism or any other grounds. She stands or falls on her own behaviour. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here, but I'll say it again anyway. She is an independent woman and should be regarded as such. However, every criticism of her is predicated on her husband. eg. BB - bathed in her spouse's limelight

    I'm really appalled by the double standards here. So-called liberals and socialists and feminists regress to sexist stereotypes and outdated world-views when it suits them. I think I'll join Hank somewhere else. I'm a bit tired of the somewhat egoistic self-congratulatory tone here. No offence folks, it's very friendly here and I like that, but think about it. If all else fails, you could talk about dogs for three days. That's always a winner, and doesn't exclude anyone, does it?

  139. scherf - see your point, but am a bit bemused that after all the rock'n'rollin' on the UT, this is the issue that makes you consider leaving.

  140. It would be sad, extremely so, to loose two talents in one night.

    "She is an independent woman and should be regarded as such."

    The problem that many have with the lady is that she is independent when it suites her cause and dependant when it suites it better. In that she is not dissimilar to Lady Clinton and in that regard it is exceedingly difficult to apply normal standards to either of them. They don't seek double standards they appear to seek multiple standards.

    Hope you don't leave Scherfig.

  141. She stands or falls on her own behaviour.

    I think everybody agrees with you on that point...all I wanted to say was that she stands illuminated by her own clouded light.

  142. Jay, just a couple of your comments on Cif which define Cherie Blair as appendage of Tony rather than a person.

    Perhaps its relevant because her popularity, or lack of, stems from the fact she is married to a warmonger and she is living happily off the blood money

    No, she's actually been too busy spending the £18million of blood money that Tony has pocketed since leaving office, mooching around with billionaires and oligarchs and anyone else who will pay him the right fee.

    Philippa, culmination of a lot of things. Not one issue. Disillusion, really. And boredom (not always, obviously), and not enough rock'n'roll. No edge any more - I've had my scraps here (long before you came along, I might add) but when eg. hank and monkeyfish can't be bothered to poke a provocative stick up the collective arse, then I couldn't be bothered either. I think maybe that you're all too nice and worthy for me. It may be time to move on. We'll see.

  143. Montana set up UT2 so that we could separate out the more serious issues that concern us from the day to day light approach that is often adopted here.

    I would not wish you to think that my comments on CB were in way intended to be attributed to you personally scherf. My observations were intended to be illustrative of my views rather than yours my friend.

    Hope you and Hank will sleep on it.

  144. thx, deano. Who knows what tomorrow might bring? Take care.

  145. scherf - OK. but I still think that's a shame. we're too nice? what kind of reason is that to bug out, pet? heavens - isn't that what we're after, solidarity? a little bit of...
    if you're after rock'n'roll

    If you're so special, why aren't you dead?

    Right - vodka's done, ex is a jerk, see you in the morning...

  146. My head is hurting so I'll make this my last comment - we have an election upcoming and your views and observations will be sorely missed if youse leave.

    Regards - deano

  147. Just to say hello, I just found this blog - an exciting extension of CIF.. very interesting, I will keep reading!

    Rupert Myers

  148. thx, pb. thauma will understand being 'thran'. It's a curse :o)


  149. Hi Rupert, you'll probably get a hard time here. But it'll probably be fun - can you link YouTube songs?

  150. can't be arsed to remember how to link any more. but this is brilliant

    hi rupes!

    really am going to bed now...

  151. Evening Scherfig if you are still here

  152. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4avoEbGjYu0

    All the best from Sydey

  153. Hi all

    scherfig--If you leave, you'll never work in this town again! Seriously, I value your contributions here, don't always agree, but that would be boring, no? You would be missed.

    Hank--Would miss your bristly input here too. We still haven't discussed the fate of the FSW and Seaton to a conclusion, though I can't see how Benitez survives this disaster at the hands of Reading.(Credit to them though.)

    Welcome to -/- too.

  154. scherf--Great link to Hooker/Van, I've seen them both live.(Not together, unfortunately.)

  155. Hi Medve,Rupert--Seems we have some unhappiness in this cyberfamily of ours, hopefully things will get sorted. No reason to stop the discourse, joking, and good music that makes this site what it is, for me at least.

  156. Fair comment Boudican. The tiff above (as i understand it) is about whether it is fair to condemn CB because of TB. I tried to comment on the thread with: Perhaps Mrs. Cherie Blair could call on the good offices of her dear friend Mr. Berlusconi to add a bit of international colour to her appeal. He is after all a serving Prime Minister.

    I used "Mrs" as opposed to "Ms" because the author identified herself as Cherie Blair, not Booth. I took a dig at their very nice hols on Sardinia, where an erstwhile Czech Prime Minister was later filmed in a state of excitement whilst enjoying similar hospitality from -- let's face it -- one of the most sexist (and more) politicians of Europe. Therefore, i for one, did not use the TB angle.

  157. Medve--I like the (and more) part of your post. Seems as if Berlusconi almost welcomes the personal scandals to deflect the problems of his government.

    CiF is certainly more protective of some ATLers than others, and this does not sit well with me. I generally (with the odd exception) enjoy the comments more than the articles.

  158. Similar sentiments. That is why it is such a shame that there seems to be invasion of astro-surfing reactionary "fuckwits" ((c)MH) with no sense of humour, nor compassion.

    p.s. can only post now and then as i am "working": thanks for your patience.

  159. Medve-- No problem, my posts are sporadic tonight as well. Babysitting 2 grandchildren does not allow me to stay on the computer for long. Glad to see them, they are fun, and curious about everything.

  160. I will be on breakfast duty in half an hour (2 boys 12 & 16 -- i am not a grandfather yet as far as i know).

  161. Medve--Haha, I hope not. Teenagers do get about, don't they? Grandkids will be along soon enough for you, enjoy your own for now. Must be off now, take care.