03 January 2010


Joan of Arc was turned over to Bishop Pierre Cauchon to be tried for heresy in 1431.  Martin Luther was excommunicated in 1521.  Construction began on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1870.  Howard Carter found the sarcophagus of King Tutankhamen in 1924.  Franklin Delano Roosevelt established the March of Dimes, a national drive to raise funds for the prevention and treatment of birth defects in 1938.  If for no other reason, he is one of my heroes.  Without the March of Dimes, I would probably be blind.  Fidel Castro was excommunicated by Pope John XXIII in 1962.  And I'm ignoring one of today's "milestones".

Born today:  Cicero (106-43 BC), Clement Attlee (1883-1967), JRR Tolkien (1892-1973), Victor Borge (1909-2000), George Martin (1926), Sergio Leone (1929-1989), John Thaw (1942-2002), Stephen Stills (1946), John Paul Jones (1946) and Michael Schumacher (1969).

It is the feast day of St. Genevieve.


  1. Morning!

    Some eminent people listed today - seems to be a biggie for heretics.

    Medve has posted something on UT2.

  2. I know, I know, I should have known better than to read something titled '30 days to a better life' (today's Observer) in the first place. But this beats all:

    "It's about looking at yourself as a brand in a commercial market place, packaging yourself with a visual and verbal identity distinct from others," and developing a game plan for Brand You ... ... There are more and more people unemployed, worrying about becoming unemployed, feeling under-employed, or wishing to become entrepreneurs, and my strategies and techniques give them identity, visibility and edge."

    WTF? Revolution now, please. Or I'll have to shoot myself.

  3. Right young miss Chin - deep breath....

    That's me away to join up wi me boys and their girls and then for lunch and some footy on tv.

    Have left the radio on (Classic FM) for Miss Diesel. Mungo is insufferable 'cos he thinks he's pulled a fast one...

    FWiW - Son will be cooking the lunch..

  4. ps - fab sunrise perfect walking weather here in E Yorks.

  5. Mschin when I read that my response was 'F**k off'!!!!!!!

    I agree - one of those 'stop the world I want to get off' moments!

  6. MsChin

    Please put down that firearm. We will need you if and when it does happen.

  7. And, of course, on here in the meanwhile.

  8. MsChin - that is depressing shit indeed! Nice layer of snow here is there in your part of Sheff?

  9. anne

    Quite. Did you see this, on the portrayal of the working class on TV?


    Recovering from my sudden urge for self-target practice now, and preparing for visiting family onslaught.


    Yep, we have snow too and I have to go back to work tomorrow :(.

    BTW, there's been some sort of govt climbdown on the 'fit for work' assessment apparently, after pressure from disability groups - here

  10. MsC

    In the Observer? ffks!! - Was going to get an Observer, shan't now. and medve's right - hold your fire, we'll need you on the barricades, and also there's the get together next saturday too.

  11. MsChin thanks for that. I am glad the charities are finally getting their act together after their rather shameful support of the Welfare Reform Bill.

    I mean I can pick a coin up off the floor and I can type - obviously - but for example yesterday after some time online, a trip to Morrisons and then lunch I had to go back to bed and was there for three hours. The test would not recognise conditions like mine at all. Or even more horrendous conditions like MS - lots of people with diseases like Parkinsons and MS are being made to find work and take part in work related activities.

    What is really worrying to me though is the way mentally ill people are being treated. Unless someone is literally almost sectionable they are being told they can find work. My friend works in the DWP - and she says a lot of staff there are absolutely fed up because they get the fallout when Atos has said someone is fit to work. One 'client' of hers tried to put his fist through a window at their first meeting then broke down - hunched in a corner of the room. Yet the Atos 'doctor' thought this man was able to work. She has loads of other horrifying stories.

    The thing is I would love to work - of course I would and no one would have any arguments about genuine help. But what is happening is bullying - pure and simple - and a drive to get the incap figures down as incap costs more than JSA. I was going to ask my consultant to sign me off in November to do two afternoons a week voluntary work and try to get back into working but then this stomach thing happened so that has been put on the back burner. Apparently a lot of charities are very worried about people who get put on the 'finding work' treadmill but who then find it physically too much or just have a relapse and become ill. They are not then allowed back on Incap or the support ESA they have their benefits cut or stopped!

    it is a disgrace it really is.

  12. Thauma

    Nothing surprises me any more - but 20 grand on a civil service knees up is going some.

    MsC - make sure you oil that revolver before you put it away, we might need it sooner than we thought!

  13. Sheff - and meanwhile, as the Princess points out, they're trying to cut benefits to ill people. It's disgusting.

  14. MsChin - bloody hell. Have been so moved as to put a little rant up on my blog, feel mildly better now...

    Princess - well put. Whenever I read about what stupid innovations are being brought in in this area, I do get the urge to bang my head on the desk. I realise more and more that I was immensely lucky when I was not 'fit for work' - because I didn't go anywhere near the 'disability' people - after a breakdown, I quit my job and spent six months on the dole (because I was renting a flat from a relative and they waived the rent for the period) where I was simultaneously over-qualified (in qualification terms) and under-qualified (in experience terms) so nobody touched me with a bargepole, but I was making enough applications to keep the soash happy. Then, when in better shape, went back to the headhunters and got employed almost immediately. And then, when facing another breakdown, had an employer who didn't want to lose me so negotiated part time work, mornings off for therapy, working at home, etc etc - I had a job that allowed that, an employer that allowed that, and a wage that allowed that - bloody lucky...

    And the reason I am currently in France is that I was again facing a downward spiral and needed to get out. But, again, instead of having to throw myself on the mercy of the state, I had sufficient capital and family support to take real time off. Again, bloody lucky...

    I have no idea what state I'd be in if my position had been different and I had ever had to offer myself up to state support. I shudder to think, to be honest. And what I can never understand is when people say "well, I've never relied on the state, why don't you pull yourself together?" when such issues are discussed. Don't they realise that it's not that easy? There but for the grace of God, kiddo, there but for the grace of God...

    Anyway. Hope you're feeling OK.

  15. Paging Jay Reilly - there's a LOTR debate going on on the Andrew Brown blog...

  16. OK, Philippa, you've lured me into it!

  17. Philippa - I am glad you can take some real time out when needed. I am lucky too because my other half earns enough to cover the bills so if we really were down on our luck we could cut some of our bills and eat beans and we would survive. But of course that is dependent on his job and he is a manager in a small business that is struggling. God knows how long they can keep going in this climate - but I don't even think about that or I would have a major relapse and be back in bed permanently!

    One of the reasons I sincerely detest MAM was because he/she once said that people with 'minor' mental illnesses like depression should be forced to work and then they would be cured. A genuinely disgraceful comment. I have never been seriously depressed - thank god - but do get panic attacks since having the ME and they are debilitating enough. But my mum has had three bouts of major depression and a nervous breakdown and how anyone can call it 'minor' is beyond me.

    The thing is I think a lot of people have an attitude that something bad happens to people for a reason. You see this attitude all the time on Cif on a whole host of different topics. So those who lose their jobs and home in this recession 'deserved it' because they borrowed too much or made foolish decisions. Women who are raped maybe sent out the wrong signals or dared to wear a dress. Those who are ill brought it on themselves etc etc. I think it is fear at the bottom of those attitudes. After all if we have to accept that any of these bad things can and do happen to any of us arbitrarily then that makes the world a scary place.

    I actually have a pet theory that it is this inability to see the world as the chaotic and random place that it is that leads to the disease known as right wingism - the belief that people really get what they deserve in this life. A belief that has no factual basis whatsoever and no evidence for it. I mean Shitdribble Purnell would be manning the coal fires in the basement by now if that were true!

  18. Afternoon Untrusties.

    I am feeling exceedingly guilty cos I didn't ring my dad to invite him over today, but, as my hubby said yesterday when I suggested it "I already gave at the office" - we did have him for 5 days over crimbo and it is doing us the world of good just to have a lazy sunday on our own. I will pop over in the week and see him instead.

    I just went back to the Cath Elliot thread to find our resident troll calling me an apologist for terrorism because in one of my posts yesterday I was trying to explain the cause and effect of global geo-political events and why you need to think global when acting local, essentially. Some BNP dork picked me up on it and started wittering on about Islam. Now Bitey has done the same, in his usual inimitable style (while, of course, reminding people I am a barrister, as if that makes me special needs or something).

    He just cannot let things go, can he? I have replied, but if he starts down this road again it won't be long before he ends up getting banned under his new nick aswell.

    On a thread about global capitalism, it is really astounding that all he can find to post about is me, on a subject that is completely off topic. I guess I should be flattered, really. :o)

  19. BB, obviously you are irresistible.

  20. Just returned from the Peak - its absolutely gorgeous out there - a low sun and all sparkly blue and white - roads are a bit lethal so came back before they freeze up again.


    Bitey is just pathetic - ignore him. Looking at his posts on here, all he wants to do is drop in little grenades he thinks will wind people up so he can quote their responses back to them aeons later. He really isn't worth wasting your time on.

    I hope you'll make it to the get together in Warwick, It should be fun.

  21. pcc

    "The thing is I think a lot of people have an attitude that something bad happens to people for a reason. You see this attitude all the time on Cif on a whole host of different topics. So those who lose their jobs and home in this recession 'deserved it' because they borrowed too much or made foolish decisions. Women who are raped maybe sent out the wrong signals or dared to wear a dress. Those who are ill brought it on themselves etc etc. I think it is fear at the bottom of those attitudes. After all if we have to accept that any of these bad things can and do happen to any of us arbitrarily then that makes the world a scary place."

    Hit the nail on the head there, PCC. People are obsessed with the idea of controlling their life, and that includes controlling what happens to them - therefore misfortune can only happen to people if they have done "something to deserve it".

    This is a terrible state of mind to be in, because if something bad does happen to you, you start to feel guilt and have self-doubt about your own life and lifestyle, which is very destructive.

  22. sheff

    I am going to try my best to make it to Warwick if I can - but I know I have a couple of bits of "homework" waiting for me in the office (more grounds to draft) so it will depend whether or not I can get them done in time. I don't know how busy this week will be, although I am working tomorrow for sure.

    Would be great to see you all. If not, I will have to make a trip oop north when the weather's a bit better. :o)

  23. I actually have a pet theory that it is this inability to see the world as the chaotic and random place

    my theory is that we a taught that the world is utterly different from the chaotic and random reality and that the deceit and disconnect between childhood expectation and adult grasp of reality lead to the nervous breakdown,,cognitive dissonance in quango speak,,thats my excuse any way

  24. Bravo, PCC, my feelings exactly on mental Health (I work in MH and have used services):it's alittle too close to home (subconsciously) for too many, as they deny the truth that it could easily be them, life works randomly, but their refusal to acknowledge this makes them aggressively offensive as they cling to their erroneous belief that they are both 'well' and in control.
    By the way I've been unable to post here the last few days as had to rely on a dongle for t'internet: able to post everywhere else, inc CiF, but not here. Anyone any idea why?

  25. Princess - ay ay re MAM. I do try not to lose my rag on CIF but one of his/her statements (along the lines of 'depressed people should just pull themselves together') did set me off slightly. ok, a lot.

    the issue of 'deserving it' is interesting - perhaps a religious throwback in this secular age? rather ironic under the circs...

    i'd see it more as rampant individualism rather than being 'left' or 'right', perhaps - a real sense of 'well I've never had to claim benefits / been a single parent / been raped / been depressed / whatever so I don't see why...'

    it's an inability to see beyond your own reflection in the mirror. do we blame thatcher, capitalism, the media? or all of the above...

    am getting mildly concerned about what i will do when the two year 'sabbatical' is up - if i can place the book i wouldn't expect to strike it rich, but it might help me to run down my savings a bit more slowly. so am going to look around here for work, as my french is probably good enough now, to avoid having to return to the rat race. teaching english, estate agents dealing with ex-pats, book/art shops... need to get a bit organised. and i don't really do organised...

    because the most practical option if I came back would seem to be HMRC. that could be interesting... heh heh.

  26. Alisdair - I think you are so right. I know a fair few people who are skating so close to a breakdown but deny constantly there is anything at all wrong with them. One is a friend of mine but their insistence that they are completely well makes it hard - especially when this friend has uttered things such as 'I don't really believe in depression' to another friend who had just been described Prozac.

    I do know Deano has trouble posting because of his dongle (I think) so he may have an answer for you on that score.

    Philippa - have you written a book? Is it finished or in the stages of being finished? I am trying to finish a book. I wrote it after my dad died - I couldn't sleep and couldn't concentrate on anything - then got this idea for a story and it was the only thing that took my mind off it all. Weirdly for such an old cynic like me it is quite romantic (not Mills and Boon stylee though I hasten to add). The thing is now I am finding editing it really damn hard. I am not great on grammar and my punctuation is appalling - much to my dear old English teacher ma's eternal shame.

    I haven't done much work on it since the loss of the netbook - but the brill news is Amazon have agreed a refund so as soon as that is in my account will get a new one, then can get back to it again.

  27. Hi,

    Attribution theory, Lerner Just world hypothesis, self efficacy, etc. There is a lot of research on all this stuff.

    What PCC 1st proposed is Just World hypothesis ;- outcomes are deserved, good stuff happens to good people bad stuff to bad people, if you're in the shit you deserved it ditto re clover.

    Attribution theory more basic, people over attribute causality to individual qualities/sources and neglect situational and context. 'Right' wind explanations tend to be ind level, 'left' wing ones systemic/situational. Ie innate bias to ind explanations.

    Adrian Furnham has lots of stuff re peoples explanations for unemployment blah.

    Agentic status is problematic?

  28. Hiya Pen, happy new year - how's it going?

    Philippa, well said and I too am interested in hearing about your book!

    Princess - you must be joking: your grammar and punctuation surpass those of 99% of the population! You're easily one of the best writers on Cif; your points are always clear and well-expressed as well as very readable.

  29. outcomes are deserved, good stuff happens to good people bad stuff to bad people, if you're in the shit you deserved it

    That sounds very theological pen - how many people actually 'believe' it who aren't actively bonkers and/or locked into some religious creed or extreme, exclusive political dogma? Hardly need to rehearse the monumental cruelties, injustices, genocides etc just of the 20th century.

  30. Princess - am writing (historical fiction - no bodices ripped) and need to crack on with that to at least finish the blessed thing by Easter-ish, so can try for agents etc etc.

    If you need a reader on yours, one allegedly saleable talent I do have is detail editing. In my view flow is more important that strict grammatical accuracy (particularly if expressing a character) but would be happy to move commas around for you if that would help.

    Pen - ave. vaguely recall the just world theory but of course get it mixed up in my head with the just war theory, which can cause confusion...

  31. Am listening to the Sunday play on R4. Is it me or is Edith Wharton really annoying?

  32. phillipa

    Its stupid, greedy Undine who is annoying me. I often like Edith Wharton. I think its supposed to be a satire on American society manners of the time.

  33. Sheff - indeed. anti-heroine? because i really do want to slap her.

    mind you, was getting rather cross at 'private lives' yesterday, but then it completely took me over. swollocks!

  34. and now it's alexander mccall smith on bookclub. God's way of telling me to go out, i think. must get tv fixed...

  35. it's Bill Nighy - I'd listen/watch him reading the phone book!!

  36. Hi guys,

    Just world theory isn't that the world is just, only that people's explanations often take this form. And of course, factors such as education / socialisation into particular formal belief systems affect explanations. (Attribution theory itself tends to be an individualistic level of explanation, Social representations theory provides a more social take tho it has its flaws too)

    Some of its ind and some social and ideological.

    And there are good reasons to amp up individual control as it is empowering even if wildly over optimistic? Reach for the stars and one may at least get to the planets?

    Estimating actual causal etc processes ie what is a valid explanation there's the rub.

    If one is a moral actor one is assuming responsibility for action and for consequences.

    Re me, I'm ok altho running on fumes as it were. I've no income and have got by on my own funds, so sympathise with those of you in similar or other straits.

    My daughter was over for xmas which was lovely but she flew back yesterday and I don't know when I will see her next.

    And I despair of the human species. The prospect of the election is dismal, CiF will fill with 'politics' oh no.

    So I'm hanging on :).

    I enjoy the tunes too and I can provide a reference or two.

  37. Go on then, Pen, givvus a choon.

    The election is horrible to contemplate. The best that could happen, I think, would be a hung parliament and a coalition government hopefully involving the Lib Dems. Vince for Chancellor!

  38. p.s. Sorry to hear of your situation but glad to hear you saw your daughter over xmas. Are you in the UK?

  39. Philippa - the Brown thread just isn't quite nerdy enough for my taste. ;-) With any luck I can take it that direction.

    It's quite an interesting thread in seriousness. There's something about Andrew Brown that really, really annoys me though.

  40. only that people's explanations often take this form.

    but surely these explanations aren't sustainable if you actually take a hard look around you - and some things are pretty difficult to miss.

    The election fills me with gloom too - whoever gets in it'll be more of the same. So many people can be bought off with so little - it is very depressing.

  41. thauma - good luck on nerding up the AB thread - although you may be biting off more than you can chew! the hit rate over there is a bit low, but often the regular posters more or less ignore what's ATL and have a very interesting debate. he does tend to haver about a bit, which is all well and good (and open and honest) but a bit startling in a world of dogma and stubborness ATL...

  42. There's something about Andrew Brown that really, really annoys me though.

    I'm guessing it's the condescension and sanctimony that does it, Thauma. That's what does it for me.

    RE: Mental health/working

    The attitudes PCC describes are the prevailing ones here. Anyone who is at all physically capable of work is supposed to be working. Only the most severe MH issues are allowed as disability. And I believe that, in general, only the ones that cause a person to be a danger to others are given that status. We even put the developmentally challenged to work in this country, you know.

  43. Philippa - where oh where is Jay? Between the two of us, I reckon we could have a good shot at it. Might even be able to introduce rugby as a metaphor for epic battles between good and evil.

  44. Subliminal parenthetic additions: good (Ireland) and evil (Springboks).

  45. Hi

    Thaum, I posted I like the tunes not that I would provide them. I have not bothered to learn to do the linky thing nor do I trawl the web which is why I like that some of you guys do. Providing a ref refers to eg. attribution theory, just world hypothesis etc.

    It was itself a reference to Scherfig's point re links :).

    Sheff, depends doesn't it, it is difficult to assess social causality, even harder than physical causality (are they the same?).

    Just world theory is more limited (as a theory) than attribution theory which is kind of more basic. But the explanations people provide is also strongly affected by education so one can shift them and perhaps better when one understands the ind psych/ cognitive processes?

    Of course, actual valid theory/ explanation may be very different from any currant extant one.

    Yeah, I am in the UK but wish I was not. Both my kids are in the US.

    If I was posting on Cif at the moment I'd comment on that AB thread,

    The Fussel The great war and modern memory is v good and related to the issues re beliefs discussed here. I did invite him to give a paper once upon a time, he refused. Ah well I still think he writes good books (and his son did a funny one on becoming a body builder).

  46. BeautifulBurnout may feel she has a free licence to distort history when she's taking apart the right wing posters who seem increasingly attracted to CiF, but she should not use it as an excuse to act as the terrorist suicide bomber's apologist.

    Al Qaida was founded in Afghanistan during the opposition to the Soviet invasion. So she is quite wrong when she claims, "western interference in the middle east has spawned Al Qaida.", as if was some excuse for the barbaric actions and ideology its members.

    Ms Burnout tells us she's an excellent barrister so this kind of fundamental error on her part can't be a simple mistake.

    Could this be another aspect of what she calls the "bigotisation" of CiF about which she earlier complained and quite rightly got taken to task.

  47. Hi Mschin sorry to take so long to get back have been out!

    I've always been uncomfortable about the way the w/c have been portrayed on TV. For a start too much is either soap opera or comedy. The working class as objects of fun not real people and not to be taken seriously.

    A lot of my relatives were working class you never seem to see people like dedicated Labour councillors (they still exist),Trade Unionists who are capable and honest or just people who want the best for their kids and care about things like education. They are all either criminals, socially inadequate, pathetic or figures of fun.

    People in those categories exist in all classes but if you judged from most TV output they only exist in the w/c.

  48. Might even be able to introduce rugby as a metaphor for epic battles between good and evil.

    introduce ? AllBlacks ?

  49. Thauma

    Thanks for the pointer to AB's thread - I don't normally venture over there but am glad I did this afternoon - has been a really interesting read and wonderful just to listen to an intelligent conversation going on without trolls and/or drunks reeling through, interjecting and buggering things up.

    Will now go off to Waterstones tomorrow and get Fussell's Great War and Modern Memory.

    I first started being interested in WW1 after I read Sassoons Memoirs of an Infantry Officer and Goodbye to All That by Graves when I was quite young. Although I was born at the end of WW2 I ended up knowing more (although not that much), about WW1 as no one would talk about what they'd all just gone through. Deep silence reigned on that subject throughout my childhood.

  50. Although I was born at the end of WW2 I ended up knowing more (although not that much), about WW1 as no one would talk about what they'd all just gone through. Deep silence reigned on that subject throughout my childhood.

    been there,,done that,,
    grandad had a wooden arm,,granpa had one leg,,
    spent huge childhood hours in the Imperial War Museum,,still know nothing about the personal history,, but i looked at a lot of the 'newspaper' history,,

    bullets suck why make them ?

  51. pen

    Seems to me these days it's difficult to assess anything at all. I was very certain about lots of things in my youth ( a feature of being young I think). As I've got older I've realised that I actually understand less and less, certainly where human behaviour is concerned. The more alleged explanations and theories there are the more confused I get.

    So just plod on doing my best not to be a complete arsehole.

  52. Welcome back Pen! Glad to hear you are doing relatively ok. Happy New Year to you. x

    Sheff - re WW1, my grandad lied about his age to join up at 16 and fought in the Somme. It wasn't until the early 70s that my brother persuaded him to actually talk about it - he recorded a cassette of it for a school history project. Prior to that it was never mentioned or discussed.

    My husband turned the cassette into CDs a few years ago for family members to have as a keepsake. Nice and comforting to hear his gentle scots brogue two decades after he left us. I wondered whether it was worth sending a copy to the Imperial War Museum for their archives...

  53. 3p4
    bullets suck why make them ? No good asking me - I don't understand it either.

  54. I wondered whether it was worth sending a copy to the Imperial War Museum for their archives...

    Of course you should BB - I think they'd welcome it and all personal testimony like that is worth keeping, not just by families but in national archives.

    I'm planning to donate my great uncle Archie's WW1 diaries and a few other bits and bobs to the IWM when I die (he was killed at Ypres) - I can't bear to part with them at the moment.

  55. Anne

    Your post just reminded me of a series my Mum used to be glued to in the 70s called "Sam" with Mark McManus. I don't really remember it, although I remember the theme music very clearly. It was about life in a pit community though, if I remember rightly.

    Link here.

  56. BB,
    Send a copy, too much is being lost.

  57. Bitey,

    You are a troll, but I must admit you're a good one as you've forced me to do what I swore I wouldn't: respond.

    Al Qaida was founded in Afghanistan during the opposition to the Soviet invasion. So she is quite wrong when she claims, "western interference in the middle east has spawned Al Qaida.", as if was some excuse for the barbaric actions and ideology its members.

    Is it not the case that Al-Qaeda was sponsored and funded by the West precisely as a response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

    Of course it's no excuse for its ideology but it is damning of the West. I'll eat my hat if BB supports its methods or goals.

    3p4 - I'll accept that the ABs are part of the Axis of Evil and Cheating Methods, but the haka is fucking brill, so I put SA and Oz ahead of them in evilness. Followed closely by France.

    Sheff - became interested in WWI in uni after reading the WWI poets and also doing a film course about war: All Quiet on the Western Front, Gallipoli, etc. In many ways, the first world war was a lot more horrific than the second. "The war to end all wars." If only.

    Oh, and you've certainly succeeded in not being an arsehole, never mind a complete one. ;-)

  58. Thauma,
    I love you like a brother but this fucking madman should be fishing in a dry river.

  59. "Oh, and you've certainly succeeded in not being an arsehole, never mind a complete one. ;-)Oh, and you've certainly succeeded in not being an arsehole, never mind a complete one. ;-)"

    Seconded! o/

  60. Thauma/BB - you're very kind - but one knows oneself better than anyone else...The Ring should never, ever be allowed anywhere near me!

  61. Sheff

    If I should wield the mighty Ring! Ah, what glory, what tales of the Thaumaturge should then be whispered in fearful dark corners down the ages.

    All this should be mine, mine, mine! The Untrusted, the Untrusted 2, and yes, even unto the mighty Cif. All would bend to my will.

    The evil trolls would be banished: oh yes, at first. But the power of the Ring is all-corrupting and trolls in other forms wouldst surely creep in. Trolls with fair faces, smooth voices and equality policies.

    Meanwhile the dark armies of multiculturalism and Elfin Safety, products of miscegenation between Orcs and former Trots, would be massing underground, beating their drums, while the omnipresent Eye of CCTV (pronounced 'Sauron') cast its baleful glare over the humbled masses to seek out malefactors.

    What larks, Pip.

  62. Thaum

    I warned you about sniffing that evostick when you were wrapping pressies now didn't I?

  63. BeautifulBurnout asked:

    "why are you bringing up a single throwaway line from a post I made yesterday and making a meal of it like your Enoch Powell-supporting fellow-poster?

    Enoch Powell posting fellow poster?

    Bit like calling you a friend of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab whose activity you were stoutly defending yesterday.

    Maybe I should remind you of what you said to another poster yesterday:

    "And then, from the safety of your anonymous nick, you suggest I might be smearing you?!!"

    and from another thread:

    "This is getting dangerously close to libel - I would watch yourself if I were you."

    And you ask me:

    "Why do you keep on harping on about me being a barrister every time you address a comment to me?"

  64. Piss off, Bitey. Nobody is interested in your obsession with me. Least of all me.

  65. Thaum - thanks :) But my grammar is quite bad a lot of the time and I always get my commas wrong. Do not know how I manage to do it but I do. I joined a writing group for a while and some of the writers were fairly successfully published. Some with M&B - which is how I know how dirty they have become! They all pulled me up on my comma use repeatedly. I had to drop out a while back when got too tired again to put the fair amount of input in.

    Pen - interesting stuff those theories. I have heard of them but don't really know much about them I am going to read up on it. Am glad things are not too horrendous at the moment.

    Philippa - will have to drop you a line re possible reading of one anothers work. But you may hate mine - think it is fairly crappy puff stuff - but it is what I needed at the time. Some people write dark brilliant stuff when in the depths of despair - I wrote candy floss rubbish but it kept me from going completely mad I think.

    Sheff - I add my voice to those stating that quite clearly you are not an arsehole of any nature whatsoever.

  66. What is it with rock bands and LOTR and mythology and druids and stuff?


  67. Wonderful news from old trafford Scherf.

  68. Evening all
    been a lovely day here cold cold but blue skies ideal for walking the beast, he's lucky (and some are we)as we have the roman countryside on our doorstep...:)

    BB were you aware that one of the most influential romantic reformists revolutionary poets Percy Shelley was born not in creepy crawley but Happy horsham!
    He was a republican, pacifist, aetheist, anti establishment revolutionary who also advocated equal rights for women...

  69. scherf

    God knows. Marillion were up there with the worst for all that stuff. I think Bill Bailey does a fantastic job on them though. :o)

  70. Gandolpho

    I knew Shelley was from Horsham cos I used to live there years ago. Used to be a nice town back then too. Now it is all insurance companies. Sigh.

  71. "Terrific post, BeautifulBurnout. I read in the paper this morning that the minister at my local Presbyterian church here in Melbourne has been using funds channelled from Scotland to fund a cell of y-front plane bombers. But do I feel it incumbent upon me to apologize as a Christian? Of course not! His actions are his business. Betty, a respected sexagenarian member of our flock - much loved among the congregation for her delicious fund-raising-drive muffins - was arrested last Thursday for cutting the throat of a museum curator who offended Christians throughout the world by displaying Piss Christ in the late-nineties. But is my name Betty? Am I to be held responsible as a Presbyterian for her conduct? Don't be silly! All of us - Presbyterians, Buddhists, Muslims - have friends who have dabbled here and there in a spot of divinely inspired mass-murder, but who cares? Thanks, Ms Burnout, for the much-need sense of perspective and good luck with the Buddhism."

    The hard drinking, foul mouthed, obscenity spitting Ms Burnout - a Buddhist. The Buddha must be spinning.

  72. gandolfo

    Red Shelley by Paul Foot - great book by a good man.

  73. BB it's my home town....don't recognise it when I go there but it has always been a tory stronghold so ironic that shelley was born there.
    Some years ago they open a monument for shelly and paul foot and dennis skinner arrived the blue rinse brigade almost had collective heart failure...it was one of the happiest days of my parents's lives!!

  74. Gandolpho - next time you are "home" give me a shout and I will meet you in The Bear for a drink!

    Maybe that is why I am so hard-drinking. There are, after all, over 40 pubs in Horsham. King and Barnes for the win! \o/

  75. sheff
    indeed agree there alas very few journalists left who are willing to go against the mainstream whislt in the mainstream
    there are also these that you can hear of paul foot talking about shelley ..first part second part
    great listen and thought provoking...also foot is full of his usual humour!

  76. no!!! not The bear that haven of debauchedness in tory town...that was my teenage years local.. old K and B are no more a great blow to my dad...;)and me!

  77. Do not look for the Buddha outside yourself, Bitey.

    See, the good thing about Buddhism - well, the kind I practice - is that there is nobody to tell me what I can and can't do other than my own Buddha nature.

    I happen to think that telling trolls and stalkers to piss off is a benefit to this little online community, so I am being compassionate to my fellow posters when I tell you to piss off, as their lives would be much improved where you to do so.

    Still. If you insist on hanging round here like the sad muppet that you are, that's your look-out.

  78. Comrade Stoaty - Annetan42 - there are days when I despair of the inability/unwillingness of: highly intelligent, well read, informed, articulate, and really well meaning friends here on UT to learn the basic tenets of collective wisdom.

    Feeding feral pigeons leads to shit in your hair. That reality is inescapable if you chose to ignore common advice.

    Feeding half bakes attract quarter bakes is equally inescable. What the fuck is that makes wonderful folk think that they can have the last word with impunity.

    There is wisdom and collective experience in the advice not to feed the trolls - why oh why then is the experience of others so lightly heeded and readily ignored by so many on the left?

    If, my dear friends, you do not recognise the wisdom and experience of others and sensibly adopt a collective approach you have a problem. You run the risk (and increase the odds) that one day that which adore (here on UT), is choked by shit and bile that your actions helped bring about.

    Collective action as a means to an end always requires the sacrifice of a little bit of individual freedom for the greater good. Ask any experienced trade unionist about the value of collective discipline.

  79. Hi All--Hoping you've all recovered from the demon drink.

    Sheffpixie--I buy many of my books from 'awesomebooksusa', they have a site in the UK and will ship from the nearest location. Have received books for as low as C$6.00 delivered. You may want to check it out, I don't like to pay bookstore prices when unnecessary.

    HandJob--I quite like BB the way she is, thank you.

  80. Oooh, Sheff, I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

    Scherf - ST really did hit the nail on the head, didn't they? My fave bit is the sandwiches (roughly 1:10 in) cos I'm just the same with having to have equal distribution across the bread. I blame my engineer forefathers.

    Oh, and tuning the violin is a masterpiece!

  81. PCC - fuck the completely proper use of the comma, it's usually only a concern of those with nowt of import to say.

    You, young miss, make sufficient sense to be seen as admirable and to have many readers who naturally identify with what you say.

  82. Words of wisdom from Deano as always. Point taken, honey.

    Hi, Boudican. Thanks

    Gandolpho - spent many an evening in the Bear in my yoof too. Also the Green Dragon. Haven't been in either for donkey's years, though.

  83. deano, I'm genuinely pleased for you. I saw the game, Leeds played well and it's all money in bank for them. Hope you win the whole thing. I'll be happy enough this year with the customary two or three trophies, so it's all good. (Apart from Ken Bates, of course. Does he still want to electrocute supporters?)

  84. PCC - don't get me started on the use of grammar as a social control device.

    My beloved sometime wife was an English teacher and, like your mum, a very good one too. After 30+ years together we had to disagree about adherence to norms (others preferences) in the use and abuse of the language.

    We did however agree that I was entitled to find delight in the company of fine ladies with rough grammar.

  85. "Finding delight in the company of fine ladies with rough grammar" would make a brilliant title for a book.

  86. Scherf - it almost makes being in the third division tolerable, it certainly made the result that bit more special. It's a long time since we won at Old Traf 198??

    It almost makes up for the hurt I felt as boy (under 11) when Leeds were put out in the third round, two years running, at Elland Road by the fegging taffs from Cardiff.

  87. Ha ha it would too BB. I can see it on the shelves now. Deano - I shall say that to myself as I am slaving away trying to work out where the damn comma goes. 'Fuck the proper use of commas!' Say it loud and say it proud!

    God but it is cold in deepest sheffield tonight.

    Hey BB - I know you like sci fi - did you watch the BBC's survivors? I loved it and it is starting again soon.

  88. Deano30--Congrats on the Leeds win, Grayson had them up and ready for blood. The game was on at 5 am here, but worth getting up for. MU don't seem to have that propensity for potting late goals this year, and Lord Govan is none too pleased.

    BB--You're welcome. This may sound patronising and sucky, but two of my best friends are lawyers. (-: Really.

  89. Sheff, sure the world is complex, confusing (but also unitary). That is why good theory is useful. It has been said that nature is miserly with process but profligate with structure. Understanding process makes sense of an awful lot of structure.

    If you read threads they are largely about giving causes and explanations for events. Attribution theory gives a simple frame for examining these as well as grounding it in an evolutionary context/process.

    At a social level processes also kick in which is why I mentioned the Fussel. The literary works produced feed into how it was remembered and also into how current realities are conceptualised. These go thru poetry, fiction and film. Fussel did also do an account of his own experience in WW2. (Partly what I find fascinating is this complex self other world refraction)

    The two wars are probably more accurately one with an extended period of uneasy 'peace' in the middle. As is typical the latter half was 'worse' in regard to casualties and actions ie it intensified which is the typical dynamic of violence.

  90. Cheers Boudican - watched the game on tv with my two sons. A completely unexpected and rich end to a wonderful xmas.

    I've taken a liking to you Boudican - a soul of generous proportions, but two friends as lawyers? Are you sure - an arithmetic mistake perchance?

    Come the revolution here, and be my opinion sought then BB will be the only lawyer permitted a bye from the scaffold.

    Perhaps they are of a different ilk in the Dominions.

    Regards to you and yours for the NY..

  91. Boudican

    We are a much-maligned profession, although I think that is largely the fault of some of the more venal among us.

    PCC - I haven't seen the new version of Survivors, no. I missed it the last time round. I remember it from when I was a kid though - it was about rabies then, I think. If you say it is worth a watch I will deffo check it out.

    I was a bit disappointed with Paradox that was on the beeb recently though - cardboard cutouts for characters. Got fed up after the first one.

  92. PCC - that's the style our lass.

    Tell the bastards - communication is a two way process, why the fuck should you expect me to do all the work...( !?.,:;-) help yourself as required...

    In the event of irreconcilable ambiguity write and tell me and I will endeavour, as a matter of courtesy, to resolve the question. Else.

    You are welcome to threaten any overbearing literary agent/critic/teacher with a visit from me... if they become troublesome.

  93. The Buddha must be spinning

    eightsome reel,,yeehha

    we can dig it

  94. One of the most famous (now deceased) and well paid libel UK lawyers (George Carmen QC) had a reputation that was well known to many other QC's. and legal people.

    Yet non of them sought to help the victims of his alleged familial bullying and the other victims of his alcoholic excesses.

    Mind you if the story had any truth then the Manchester Guardian was equally complicit.

    That said I am still not moving from my view that only BB should be saved... ( Bloody relief to read that her man wasn't also a lawyer - I wouldn't wish to be seen to come between a lass and her man)

  95. deano30--Afraid it's true, was caught with them in public view! Stigmatising it was.(-:

    BB--You are right of course, and I shan't attempt to blacken the profession as a whole.

  96. Bloody hell, I've fallen into single combat with sarka on the Brown thread. Not sure I'm up to my adversary at the moment, but I'm still sure I'm right. ;-)

  97. I enjoyed it BB - but that's not saying much!! This time it was some weird deadly flu type virus and nearly everyone but this small band of survivors was wiped out.

    I watched the remake of War of the Worlds last night - then we listened to the Jeff Wayne version for a bit. I used to listen to that as a kid in the eighties - with the curtains drawn and all the lights on my dads stereo scaring me and my sis witless as we listened to the story. Brilliant stuff!

    Right off to watch some tellybox. Have a good night all.

  98. I have the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds on dvd. Pretty good but so bleak - I didn't feel up to watching it yesterday as I was in too good a mood. It is good though.

    I used to listen to Jeff Wayne's album for hours and hours when I was a teenager too! Was pretty awesome.

    Wallander on Beeb One now for anyone interested in Swedish police tales. Bloody good. Kenneth Branagh is great in it.

  99. Boudican

    "..Stigmatising it was.."

    No problem friend - when we have the International UT Friends Convention, provided you have the usual Western unarguable and definitive evidence of stigma, you will be admitted without question.

    Else, gentle and warm enquiries will be made of you - the results being irrelevant you will be admitted in any event.

  100. Wallander on Beeb One now for anyone interested in Swedish police tales. Bloody good. Kenneth Branagh is great in it.

    Right. Rub it in, why don't you?

  101. deano--Haha,thanks buddy, maybe 3p4 and I can carpool to the UT Convention.

  102. Boudican - I have no authority here, as all post soon come to know, we who post here do so at our own risk and pleasure.

    That said - you weren't caught on a satallite photo with lawyers were you?

    On a less silly, note may I ask - Have you seen the Northern Lights?

    I always associate Canada as largely within the eyefall of that wondrous phenomenon. I know the footfall is more complex than that - indeed they were seen here in Yorks in the 1930's and again in 200??

    The world authority on NL (aka Aurora Borealis) seems to be Polker Flatts? University of Alaska. Of course that is USA. But since this lay person understands Canada as one of the countries most vulnerable to the electrical disruptive effects I kinda imagine every Canadian has a Light's yarn...?

    Whenever I meet Norwegians and Canadians I am in awe at the possibility that they may have seen the Lights - the Aurora. I try to meet people socially before I ask ......

    I want to see the Lights more than anything.

  103. Montana - I know you is busy miss lovely, but I did enquire when you gave us that fab pic of the Aurora over your locale -- have you seen the Lights ?

  104. "auxesis may think that just because he has a new nickname since he was banned, that he can call people apologists for terrorism willy-nilly and should learn a little more about the history of the region himself before commenting."

    BeautifulBurnout you failed the first test of your loyalty to freedom of speech by snitching to the moderators rather than just answering the challenge about your less than encyclopaedic knowledge of your fundamentalist Islamic friend from Nigeria and Al Qaida, formerly at UCL and more recently trying to bring down an airliner, its passengers and crew.


  105. Hi again (briefly)


    Me too. Apparently they have been sighted all over the UK at various times!

    Just found this AuroraWatch website. Might help us catch the next opportunity?

  106. Evenin' all. Is it a sign of insanity when you end a bad day by just laughing at yourself? Sorry to our pan-american friends, that link may mean nothing to you, hope it still made you giggle.

  107. Montana - I am unhappy that we don't provide the BBC worldwide to our friends and indeed even our enemies for free.

    What the fuck is the BBC World service if not a free of charge expression of our (alleged) values and culture? Why should we limit our ambitions to this single channel.?

    I know the commercial answer to my question -

    nonetheless I think we ought to get all UK UT members to write to their MPs to explain the the nature of a "special relationship" which excludes access to the Public Service Broadcasting of a Partner? That said....

    A wee idea for an article from you ATL on the limits of the special relationship??

  108. Hi Chin - yea I have an email link to the alert systems in the UK. (Uni of York also involved)

    We can talk about that later if you are passing through.. I have been on the North Coast of Scotland for a cold week in Jan - no possible sightings for 5 crystal clear nights , 2 nights high visibility active sky but above the fucking clouds!!! ( 5 nights of wonderful stargazing though)

  109. Not that it's been an entirely bad day, I'm with deano - that morning sun was beautiful. A good hour and a half walk blew away some cobwebs, I can tell you.

  110. http://www2.tsn.ca/window/wjrs201blah blah blah not a link

    www2. ????

    www2 ?? what means this '2' ? anyone know what this 2 is about ?

  111. deano--No pictures, as my friends would have held the copyright , you see.

    Was lucky enough to see Aurora many times in my youth, but not for 4 decades. It is one of the great natural light shows that no pyrotechnician can even dream of reproducing.Folks used to let us stay up all night to watch and marvel at it. Good memories. One day Grasshopper, one day.

  112. habib - you don't laugh at yourself from time to time you don't learn a lot. Least that's how I found it.

    Liked your link - you must know of the Clangers?

    I'm away shortly, nowt personal my brother - my legs are tired from a lot of walking this morning in thickish snow.

    For all others if you leave a response to anything above it will most likely be picked up again in due course.

  113. ok looked it up myself,,duh,,

  114. Hello habib

    Never mind, mate. You can play some tunes for Montana and the crowd, and you can talk about the Northern Lights (and I don't mean the smoking variety) with deano.

    Off to bed now, as must return to work tomorrow, after the Xmas break .. goodnight all.

  115. I'm away early - but fegging very happy at the expense of the Manc's "YES" x 110000000000 squared plus 2 and 3 farthings.



    Manchester United (Div I) 0 Leeds United (Div III) 1

    Result - Away team obscures Home team.
    says it all really....

    Good night my friends.

  116. Good night Deano! x

    Have a good day tomorrow MsChin - my first day back since the 23rd too. Waaaaaaaaah!

    Evening, Habib. I am off to bed too as the idea of the alarm going off at 6.45 fills me with horror... :O

    Night all xx

  117. BeautifulBurnout

    "Actually, I was going by something I was told re the sky marshall bit but having googled I can find no reference to it, so I apologise and retract that bit of my post pending further info."

    Still doesn't smell right though, notwithstanding.

    So who told you - Special Branch, MI5, The CIA, or your contacts in Al Qaida?

  118. Sweet dreams, somnolent people.
    Deano, it's mean to mock the Mancs like that... :-)
    (ooh, assonance! or asinine, you decide!)

  119. Just a reminder of what I am, not anybody else at all.

  120. @Deano -- I've seen the Northern Lights a couple of times, but nowhere near as spectacular a display as the photo I put up a couple of days ago. That photo must have been in north-central Iowa and we were probably either too far south or it was overcast down here on that night (I think it was taken in Jan. 2006).

    Off to get groceries. Back later, if anyone's going to be around...

  121. Happy New Year to monkeyfish and Bitterweed, guys!

    @Bitey - the cold shoulder approach clearly isn't working, so let's go back to the tried and trusted approach of exposing you as a bit of an arse...

    You're obviously not an expert on gender politics, or international terrorism, so let's give those a swerve.

    Economics isn't your strong suit either. Nor is contemporary music. Or sport. Or literature. Science and nature.

    Entertainment? Hah, well kinda...

    And, if you don't mind, I'll pass on the going rate for lady boys in Thailand. I'm not daft enough to challenge you on your specialist subject.

    So, if we can agree that archiving and then regurgitating comments isn't that interesting, and only counts as a special power if you're a librarian-on-steroids, we don't have much left to discuss.

    Actually, it's not so much that we don't have much left to discuss as that we have nothing of interest at all to say to each other.


    Fuck off...

    Conan The Librarian.

  122. Hi gang, those of us still here. I have been awol because I have spent the day doing maths with my older son. For those with a masochistic inclination the result is here.

  123. Where the fuck are MF and BW btw? I love those foul-mouthed drunken drug-riddled gunslingers. Have they been driven away by the sniping from the moral minority?

  124. Ooh, so much going on. Dust and ashes, and all that...

    Princess - fear not! Have had to deal with a sci-fi reworking of Mary Poppins, so any fiction that you can throw my way will be in no way troublesome compared to that. Trust me. (winks)

    BB - Like that approach to the Buddha. Would it piss you off too much to learn that is my approach to the Divine? heh heh.

    Deano - that result did fill me with happy.

    And for everyone with tangible memories from their fore-people of WW1 (and WWII) - the Imperial War Museum has a special project, "Their Past, Your Future", which takes such memories and collates them. Any evidence, particularly recordings, of our 'fine young men' gratefully received.

    Right - have found a moody stream of Fringe season 2 so may be out of action for a while...

  125. BeautifulBurnout:

    "There is something about this one that just doesn't smell right.

    "Dad informs the State Department about him.

    "MI5 has him on a watch list for years and he is refused a renewal of his visa in 2008.

    "The NSA hear on the grapevine that there is a Nigerian trained in Yemen planning an attack.

    "The "member of the public" who prevented the bomb igniting - which said Nigerian could have ignited quite happily in the bathroom instead of in full view of everyone - turns out to be a sky marshall.


    "Doesn't smell right..."

    I'd have thought with your knowledge of immigration law and procedures that you'd have known his visa application was rejected because the college he applied to wasn't registered with the Home Office to accept overseas students.

    But don't let little facts like that get in the way of your rampant prejudice Ms Burnout.

    Never mind, Gary's told you "Responsibility for Abdulmutallab lies with Obama."

  126. heheh, ManUre v Leeds - the Damned Uniteds. Wanted them both to lose.

  127. Have they been driven away by the sniping from the moral minority

    hi hank,,just on the offchance that i am one of the moral minority could you please point out the sniping ,,it went right over my head,,

    has any one noticed the similarity tween auxesis
    and sheepherderr in their page layout,,not to mention fixation tendencies,,both these id's are going at the same time,,

  128. Doesn't smell right

    smells the same as all these incidents,,i am generally sceptical about all of them,,i read history books,,what the hell do you think giyus is always banging on about,,

  129. @3p4, nope, not you, mate. One of the snipers is in full view atm, which isn't a good look for a sniper, particularly when he's firing blanks...

  130. Did Giyus pass on the New Year Revelation that was promised? A big yah boo! to him if he didn't.

  131. hank i think we need discuss the definition of "moral" minority,,

  132. This comment has been removed by the author.

  133. i click right here and i get this great live hockey game canadian kids vs swiss kids super hi def. and then i click over here and i get to talk to people in england on a blog in america,,while the sound track carries on,,and when i was born there wasnt even tv,,in black and white,,oh look both at once,,2010 and then i click over here and,, ,, ,, ,,reality overload

  134. Turns out that one of the Cif editorial staff who posts above and below the line is the daughter of the editor of the Graun.

    so what ?

  135. This comment has been removed by the author.

  136. Montana - my much loved hostess I awoke cos me old dog is ailing to find this:

    " @Bitey - the cold shoulder approach clearly isn't working, so let's go back to the tried and trusted approach of exposing you as a bit of an arse...

    You is my lady - I innocently engaged an idea easily misrepresented I said/suggested above in this thread that to ignore trolls was ...might be..........a collective wisdom.

    Sorry to be a contradictory half bake on your wonderful site.

    I love you to bits so in so far as I misunderstood yours position - I'm sorry every body knows I have no weight.

    Hank - you are a star but a wandering one. No problem with that - but work out your own point of the circumvention, when you have done that you will help secure this site.

    Nobody has to leave (including me) we simply think more and write less?

  137. he who is without sin,,

    i got a good story about that but its not for public,,

    All of us are hypocrites

    thats a real good starting place for progress
    self truth is very difficult,,christ its so easy

    no contradiction

  138. in this case deanno i disagree,, there is time and place for everything,,

    the graun angle i can do without,,but

    no troll control can sometimes mean billy goat gruff is out of work,,i am usually the first advocate for scroll on by but there is time and place,, i think the sniper metaphor fits very well,,Anshutz Hank?

  139. @deano - not entirely sure why the above post is addressed to Montana given that it's my words...

    "Nobody has to leave..."

    Really? Even people who admit to being nothing more than trolls? BTH is a diverting entertainment, and brings us all together, but he's not really welcome, deano. There have been a number of posts asking him to buy in or fuck off. He's said more than once that he has his own agenda on here, so he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

    "Hank - you are a star but a wandering one..."

    Yeh, I think you're confusing Lee Marvin with Hank of the same name...

    "...work out your own point of the circumvention, when you have done that you will help secure the site..."

    I really don't understand what this means.

    "...we simply think more and write less?"

    Well, fucking amen to that.

  140. Deano -- you and I have the same policy vis à vis trolls.

    But football -- my Unrequited Love must be spitting nails right now, obsessive Man Utd fan that he is.

  141. 3p4

    "..in this case deanno i disagree,, there is time and place for everything,,.."

    Of course our kid - but not here and not now.

  142. Deleted posts must have made me misunderstand the "no one has to leave". I can't make anyone leave and I won't delete posts from anyone, no matter how odious a human being I think the poster is, unless I feel there's a compelling reason.

    But I won't say that there isn't at least one person that I do, rather seriously, wish would fuck off somewhere else.

  143. Come on, if you're going to mention it, you have to post it. "Do I know where hell is? Hell is in hello."

  144. Speaking as a newbie, it seems to me that this is a community, with a wealth of views and experience. I have found the past few days since I have visited and commented on this UT quite fascinating, entertaining and in certain aspects enlightening. If a hypothetical comment archiving deamon were to scan through all my input that would be clear. However, had I been cold-shouldered or otherwise been told to go away, it would not have been worth the while nor the effort to contribute, moreover it would not have been enjoyable. I would have been off elsewhere. Sad, really.

    Having gotten that off my chest, back to the fun.

  145. I'll have to change that T-shirt soon, it's getting a bit smelly.

  146. @Montana - the deleted posts related, as far as the "leaving" is concerned, was to Bitey. So, presumably there's no problem there given that he would also be the "one person that I do, rather seriously, wish would fuck off somewhere else."

  147. I think you're confusing Lee Marvin with Hank


    music timehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L00w0KJvkGU

  148. Hank - I really couldn't give a fuck what you think about me.

    What matters to me is what I think about you.

    As it happens half bake - I think you have promise, wonderful promise.


  149. deanno,,time and place


    often a troll provokes multiple responces for each post,,its ugly and derailing,, one on one billygoat vs troll is merely a side show for others to observe as it passes,,rebuttal and dismissal are not trolling,,

    to continue to make veiled and oblique references in future posts will be of course behaving no better than the troll,,
    time place circumstance boundaries,,usually Deanno you and i will be in complete agrrement about this issue,,today i beg to differ,,(a la Whitman)

  150. "Hank - I really couldn't give a fuck what you think about me.

    What matters to me is what I think about you."

    I'm tempted to say a lot here, deano, but I won't. You're not a bad guy.

    Take care.

  151. Montana

    It is back to school today/tomorrow, meaning i will have to get up in three and half hours so i shall be off for a bit of shut eye in a moment.

    I like your non-deleted posts policy.

  152. nice one cyril nice one son
    lets gave no dissention
    or the troll might think it won
    oi oi

  153. Deano and Hank, heroes of great repute, nothing really matters, except a worthy accord amongst yourselves.

  154. Here have a song, as if that could ever make things better.

  155. dont worry habib,,we have been here before,,it will be fine in the morning,,

  156. Thanks for the clarification, Montana (-;

    I know the rules though, and am grateful for the licence they allow. Generally.


  157. Okay, well we all seem to be copacetic here, so what are we going to talk about now?

  158. Goodnight all, see you tomorrow

  159. Couldn't get back on line for a while.....

    Thank you Hank - it's difficult to imagine what high ground you could have gained from an aged but sinking hulk, excuse me, small but shrinking hulk...

    "Thanks for the clarification, Montana (-;

    I know the rules though, and am grateful for the licence they allow. Generally.

    I second that - I respectfully suggest/agree no grown up person could disagree with that.

    Happy New Year Hank - for you and your lad all that I wish for mine.

    Best regards deano.

  160. I think/\hope I have absorbed some of your learning 3p4 - makes sense that Whitman chap

  161. no such thing as perfection Deanno,,sometimes we just contradict ourselves,,but we can do it honestly,,

    everyone is a teacher or a student or a lesson,,sometimes all at once,,

  162. second hockey tourney semi final on,, probably very popular in your neck of the woods Montana
    its USA vs Sweden,,lots of swedish roots in iowa
    lots of ice hockey for kids,,

  163. Not that it means anything.
    "Frost upon these cigarettes
    Lipstick on the window pane and I've
    Lost all sense of the world outside but I
    Can't forget so I call your name and I'm
    Looking for a life for me and I'm
    Looking for a life for you and I'm
    Talking to myself again and it's
    So damn cold it's just not true."

  164. Can I ask a question that's been gnawing at me? (I got dragged out of bed this afteroon by some male friends who knew that my girlfriend had ditched me. They took me to the pub and bought a few beers. Good lads)

    But what is it that makes women friends sensitive and caring (thanks to one in particular) and male friends such a bunch of have-a-laugh-at-you bastards? They played very funny songs on the juke box - "The Sun ain't Gonna Shine Anymore", "What Becomes of the Broken Hearted?" and so on.

    Ha, bloody ha!

    I've got to admit, they did make me laugh, but the words of my female friends carried at least some kind of compassion. I guess if you're a man, you're not supposed to be bothered by a sad time. Is it taught, or is it an inherent trait/strength?

  165. My guess is they were trying to cheer you up & show you support in the best way they knew how. If I understood men a bit better, I might not be so crap at relationships...

  166. Hey Montana

    Newton's laws do keep me here
    though i really have no fear
    of rats and mice and crawly thinks
    of cadmium, cabbages, and kings

  167. Is the "might not be so crap at relationships..." tongue in cheek? Has cropped up quite often. Maybe just unlucky.

  168. 60s 70s and 80s happy songs. Brilliant!

    You can always rely on good friends.

  169. Well, the tongue isn't in cheek. I would prefer to think just unlucky, but tend to suspect that I'm just crap at it.

  170. Not sure I can look at that link, Medve. Just the title makes me sick.

  171. Nah, go for the "just unlucky" so far ..

  172. Montana

    I think it is quite safe to assume that those 169 [all] men are not up your street. But there other kinds as well. Try one of those.

  173. But there ARE other kinds as well. fegging dyslexia.

  174. More 90s happiness for Habib and a video that is hilarious on several levels.

    Medve -- I'm sure there are other kinds, but finding one of them when you're stuck in Cowpat Junction isn't easy.

  175. With a bit of luck the interwebz will a lead some adventurous ones of the right kind to visit Cowpat Junction.

    Always look on the bright side of life ..

  176. "You're my Lois Lane!" ha!
    If only I was Superman in other than ego.

  177. If life seems jolly rotten, there's something you've forgotten...

    There was another 90s song that I was going to link to -- one that I used to enjoy dancing to. Found the original video for it -- which I'd never seen, I'd only ever heard the song at the place we used to go to dance. Really dodgy political overtones to the video and lyrics that I'd never realised were so crude. *Sigh*

  178. Habib -- that's not the humour I was seeing.