14 May 2009

A message to Billp

Okay, you win.  Is that what you want to hear?  Well, I'm not afraid to say it.  You've ruined this place and I hope that makes you happy.  Until you popped up, this place had been doing nicely.  But you are an ugly, sick, self-absorbed and probably very dangerous little fuckwit.  You claimed a couple of days ago that you would leave and never come back if I just told you that you are banned.  I said nothing because I thought if we ignored you, you would get bored with us and go away.  My patience is gone.  Well, you're getting your wish, Billp.  I am hereby telling you that you're banned.  I'm begging you to fuck off somewhere else.  Call me a hypocrite, whinge that I'm squelching your right to free speech.  I couldn't care less.



  1. Brilliant!!

    I luv ya Montana(-:

  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

  3. Bye, bill. It's been excruciatingly boring. Thx.

  4. Well some of it was funny, but most of it I can live without

  5. If I wanted to read the inane ranting of right-wing frothing at the mouth sociopaths, I would sign up to CommentIsFree.

    I come to this place, montana, because I see it as a happy place, a refuge from idiot bigots like billp. You assured me that this blogspot would be like that, and that the $1000 annual subscription fee would be money well spent.

    Well, MH, the cheque's been cashed, please don't tell me that you're just another Elmer Gantry...

    Seriously though, I would pay money to swap thoughts with like-minded, intelligent people in the absence of fucking trolls.

  6. Bugger, missed the punchline - as I said on the previous thread on this blogspot, let's move to another site which is invitaton only, or ditch this place and use the PhoneBooth exclusively.

  7. Hank, you're in the right place. Name this movie. Anyone?

    'I gotta tell you, the life of the mind... There's no roadmap for that territory... And exploring it can be painful.'

  8. hey wait a minute,,Hank only paid a grand ??

    whats so special about him ?

  9. so Montana,,i guess you pretty much a .45 calibre
    dudette huh

    ow smokin Mumma

  10. Well said. I can't believe you tolerated that vapid dolt for as long as you did. Testimony to your tolerance, I guess. I would have told the bastard to fuck off a long time ago...this place was starting to resemble being trapped in a lift with the world's noisiest, ghastliest 5 year-old.

  11. HankTarantino15 May, 2009 01:08

    Too easy, scherfig, I love the Coen Bros - Barton Fink.

  12. scherfig-Barton Fink.

  13. RedCapeJustAddBull15 May, 2009 01:14

    Seriously though, I would pay money to swap thoughts with like-minded, intelligent people

    here is your starter for whatever i can get for it

    how does one justify extremes of hyperbole and how do we allow the level of hyperbole to affect our

    by allow i mean perhaps,,are unable to resist,,

  14. hi mish,,


  15. Hi, Nick...

  16. "Night John Boy"

    "Night Mary Ellen"

    "Night Scherfig"

    "Night MontanaWildhack"

    Jeez, those Waltons took in some weird lodgers to keep the franchise afloat, no?

    You've got mail btw, Mary Ellen...x

  17. Say what you like about The Waltons, they were never as emetic as Little House on the fucking Prairie. How one yearned for a Commanche raiding party to scalp the whole sorry lot...

  18. Night this...night that...night the other - doesn't anybody ever fucking sleep around here?

    'This is the way the fucking world ends. Look at this fucking shit we're in man. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack.'


  19. anaheim2 / / detroit 3

    third period

    game 7

    cricket it aint

    doesn't anybody ever fucking sleep around here?

    not at 6 in the evening,,we watch the hockey game
    rugby on ice with sticks

  20. stickitandpuckoff15 May, 2009 02:19


    can you imagine,,well no you probably cant,,but
    this could go to overtime in a game 7,,


  21. Mish -- and LHOTP was apparently complete BS. I'm not sure how they ever figure stuff like this out, but the story these days is that Pa Ingalls was a wife-abusing alcoholic who couldn't manage money & that they moved a lot because he'd get in so much debt that they'd have to pick up and move on somewhere else.

  22. anaheim3//detroit4

    3minutes left


    i dont care who wins,,overtime game 7 gots to be a really rare event,,would have been interesting,,

    last nights game in which a team was eliminated had 22,000 people standing screaming and waving
    towels pompoms and scarves for 8 minutes full volume nonstop,,quite the tribal show

    last 5 seconds,,action paused,,pa playing Midnight train by journey and the crowd is all singing along,,hell of a good show,,

    strange to say i am ,,in general,,not in favour of professional sports,,but there are a few events where the ritual outweighs the commerce

    the talking heads last comment "have you ever heard a crowd this loud "

    3,2,1 done,,,Detroit moves on to semifinal (english) conference final (UScanada)

  23. Andy just got a nod from AllyF,,only takes a few flakes to start a snowball rolling

  24. Hi 3p4. I'm being entertained by my kids doing the Wii version of hulahoop. A lot of hip rotations and laughter.
    The only time I've spent watching hockey was when I was going to school in Missoula and had some roommates from Calgary, this was back when the Flames were doing really well - a lot of excitement. I noticed similarities between hockey and basketball in how 'plays' developed. Only ice skated a couple of times, it was a 'townkid' activity and on the few times I tried it I ended up bonking my elbow or head hard enough to put me off it.
    As a kid I was a sportsaholic - playing any game with a ball(except baseball, another townkid game). ESPN was a dream come true. Now, I can't get interested in watching sports on TV, with the occasional exception of the NFL during the fall/early winter. I like to make a big kettle of chili or stew or the like and treat it like my Mexican friends do menudo(daylong snacking) - only with frybread instead of tortillas.
    My seven year old just challenged me to a ski-jumping contest - so off I go.
    Hope all is well in Vancouver.


  25. hi 9mile,,i dont watch television at all,,havent had one for a long time,,but its hockey and canada,, its on line live for free or within a few hours of broadcast,,i watched the live game and now i have the other one on,,which was also a game 7 and it did go into overtime,,no commercials on line (mostly)

    one of my kids has moved back in with me for a while (22),,

    farm kids,,harvest laughs,, i have a little friend whom i am showing reading and writing,,
    she is a 4 old mexican korean kidlet and i am
    honorary granpa,,along with reading andwriting she is also hearing about bird names tree parts
    seed shapes bugs flowers and and endless list of distractions and giggles,,today she was really
    engaged in knowing and remembering where the question mark (HUH) and the exclamation mark (WOW) are on the keyboard and was delighted to show dad when he came to collect her,,

    well that was a fun post,,cheers rancherdude

  26. she also read my screensaver text to her dad

    there is picture of a wide mouthed kitten looking out the window



  27. Up until now, I’ve tried to avoid addressing billp directly, but here’s my response to his question on yesterday’s Daily Chat @ 07.45:

    “What was Israel before it was declared an independent state? Is there such a thing as a dependent state?”

    I believe scholars are now developing the concept of a co-dependent state, with special attention to the policies of the Israeli government.

    Professor Montana Wildhack of the University of Idaho, Department of Post-post-modern Studies, Faculty of Cyberspace, is apparently putting the final touches to a paper which will revolutionise the world of International Relations.

    deano30 & swiftyboy I missed part of your exchange yesterday until now, but regarding Flamborough Head etc:

    My girlfriend’s Dad once told her that if you stood on top of Parliament Hill in London (part of Hampstead Heath, for you Yorkshire folk) and faced in the right direction, the highest bit of land way over there is the Urals.

    We tried to check it out once, using google earth (other global mapping systems are available), and it seemed at least plausible.

    I suspect the curvature of the earth means you would never actually see the snowy peaks, but that helps to explain the cold east wind – it’s come all the way from Siberia.

    Punch line still standing on “What’s in a name?” thread.

    I’m guessing it doesn’t really stand a snowball’s chance in Hell of lasting the day, especially once I’ve e-mailed Georgina and the Mods a copy directly.

  28. Regards Parliament Hill and the Urals, this might be of some help


  29. Goodness me, what a palaver!

    You could have predicted though that if you set up a site EXPRESSLY to guarantee the "free speech" that had been denied to some on CiF, the some mischievous little imp would come along and try to test these principles to the limit....

  30. See ya Billp, keep trolling buddy, live the dream...

  31. What the f@ck ??
    This is the second best bit of news I could have had this morning...

    Montana, I love you !

  32. By the way, the first-best will be shit hot if I get it...

    BFN, got to go.

  33. First kurt Vonnegut.

    Now Kurtz.

    What next, King Kurt ???


  34. Last night fracas, which you can all read for yourself on the “no bang no wimper….” thread, which very understandably led Montana to invite billp to leave (in no uncertain terms) and not to return, was unfortunate to say the least.

    I have no brief for any person in that fracas save myself and I am not billp.

    No fair person could say that the hostess with the mostest has not been tolerant or had not signalled that eventually an end would have to be put to the situation – if only so that the other animals in the jungle could get a word in or a sounds night sleep.

    You be the judge when you have read the unfolding story over on the “no bang, no wimper…..” thread (an interesting but sad post from Atomboy in its own right) – but I do think it sensible to look at in the round and to view not only the chronology, ,but also to note what was going on in the gaps in between.

    In this place we would all benefit from a more careful reading of others. Just as when we go to the pub if we don’t listen to what others (including the softly spoken, or those speaking in unfamiliar ways, with uncertainty, or unknown accent, or credentials) are saying we are in the end having a conversation with no one but our self.

    Just in case we forget – that is part of the way we identify dangerous nutters, Talking to ones self is really best avoided and I don’t intend to hang around here doing that mysef. I realy can take a hint and am not in the least offended. (sings a refrain that sounds like …….”.no shrinking violet am I……….”…..to himself whilst taking to his dogs and pruning his Acers in his head).

    CiF friends of Montana you don’t need an unknown like myself to remind you what you already know .

    “---First they came for ----------and I heard and said nothing ------------then they came for……..and I………………and…………………………………and…then they came for me and there was no one to hear see cry or object……”

    You all know the story so well some of you probably know someone who knew someone who wrote it.

    For a roomful of very fine minds there sure are some odd sounds coming out of here from time to time..

    I am happy to make the same offer that billp apparently made to Montana that is I will willingly go never to return at her request.

    Who the fuck wants to listen to what some are bound too see as patronising claptrap? Teach my grannys to suck eggs? – I’d rather suck a donkey’s dick thank you, but no thank you.

    Such tinges of regret that I have are only because the fracas to some extent assists the case of the CIF mods. I do not say necessarily strengthens but there must be some who would only too quickly say words to the effect of:

    “…….told you that you have to have a lion tamer in a jungle…..”

    Powerful argument – but I am not convinced of it myself. Censorship (save only that required to protect against legal damages of the host platform) is simply unbecoming in any Newspaper whose future by definition depends on:

    i) freedom of speech;

    ii) freedom of the individual to read and/or ignore what is printed;

    iii) freedom of the press to print (make available) whatever it wishes by way of opinion and
    comment on events of the day.

    Any newspaper that itself requires freedoms that it cannot or will not extend to its readers seems to me to be on thin ice. It is simply no good posturing and railing against the likes of Murdoch et al taking out gagging injunctions and then sticking it up Ciffers.

    We shall all shortly have to start railing against the UK becoming a libel tourist hotspot. It’s no complete surprise why so many of the uber rich have bases here and constantly seek advice from elite London lawyers in the dirty arts of silencing dissent. If the Guardian seeks to silence its readers it can’t expect their outrage and indignation when it itself is gagged unjustly.

    Let me put it another way. If you seek to constrain your customers (albeit they be non paying customers) but seek to be free from the same constraints yourself you plainly do not understand alleged market fundamentals.

    In the market the consumer is King. Telling the Emperor he has no clothes is plainly a silly thing to do from someone who sold him his last suit.

    My natural disposition is to want to say:


    That way we teach and learn each from the other to the greatest extent possible. If along the way we find some tolerance and discipline along with new ideas then our journey is worthwhile. If we become friends and neighbours it’s a bonus – but not one, any one of us need be ashamed off or secretive about it.

    Of one thing I am absolutely sure no fucker out there can, or would want to, come and live on my street and I can assure all of you that 99.999% of you wouldn’t want be seen dead where I live.

    Best Wishes to all for an enjoyable day.

    By the way at the bottom of yesterdays daily thread is a polite request to Montana to consider opening a new thread. to deal with continuing mod problems and issues. It is open to all of you to encourage/discourage her as you see fit. Her decision will be final.

    I know that HankScorpio considers the initiative amounts to shitting on ones own doorstep because he was kind enough to say so in no uncertain terms last night. Much as I admire Hank and his many contributions, on this occasion I do not agree with him

    And I have to say that I think he may have misunderstood either me or my motivation or both but in truth I do not mind if he understands me well and wishes to disagree. As a friend said to him last night he feared neither his pity, anger or angst and neither do I.

    My opinion and high regard of HankScorpio and others here in no way depends on what they think of me.

    As I said to the love of my life (my sometime wife) on our separation many years ago “ I couldn’t give a toss what you (she) think of me, my love and admiration for you(her) is unconditional a priori – bon voyage” To this day we have remained …………
    So for the avoidance of doubt I make it equally clear I could never love HankScorpio - its nothing personal and it wasn’t something he said - but I will always admire his wit and edge.

    From where I stand I think I’m nearer the grave than him thus on the balance of the odds I’ll know the answer to the ultimate question before he does!,

    As ever Hank - Best W room101.d30

    You really don’t need an enigma machine to sort this one out do you room101.Turing?

  35. Presume this must be the daily thread but slightly confused cos it's got yesterdays date on top

  36. Hi Bill!


  37. Punch line still up! Well done, Andy.

  38. AllyF's put up a good post on the Mark Lawson thread @ 15 May 09, 9:27am....

  39. room101.d30
    "Such tinges of regret that I have are only because the fracas to some extent assists the case of the CIF mods."

    To a very limited extent. Imagine a yard party in a block where a few strict zeaolots were living, who went around admionishing people's verbal behaviour from time to time. A bunch of self righteous pain in the asses.

    Imagine a party at a neighbouring block, no militant zealots, but and a psycho wanders in and starts boring people, intimidating them if they disagree, and being completely self-absorbed. The party is dying. Finally, the hitherto extremeley tolerant and accomodating hostess kiscks his ass out the door to a loud universal applause.

    We don't need the thought policing zealots. Self policing always wins...

  40. thaumaturge: bit of a panic posting it last night.

    Thought I’d lost it or been put in some sort of limbo, but now I’m guessing it was simply because I’d left my Post Comment box open all day, and been automatically logged out. Or maybe there's another innocent explanation that hasn't occurred to me.

    Thanks for your response.

    I’m planning to see what happens on that thread today, and then e-mail it direct to Georgina and the Mods office later this afternoon.

    Summerisle: thanks for the link.

    Maybe I’ll do the maths later on...

  41. A wet one here in Yorkshire the drops like dancing like diamonds on the lace leaf Acers.

    For the avoidance of doubt I am working on the longest suicide note in this blogs history.

    Still had a new experience yesterday never had a post of mine on here compared to Stendhal before. Since I was unfamiliar with said deceased person don’t know wether to be flattered or outraged.- think I’ll take the generous option. Thank you - you who know who you are and tucked your comment so quietly inside a package that I almost missed it.

    I wish I had taken ? (Andy?_) advice to work in Word and then cut and paste as a standard practice – I’ve again lost a draft. Whoever it was thanks its good advice I just wish I always followed it. Still I am optimistic that I can teach this old dog new tricks.

    Back to that suicide note you never know when it will come in handy.

  42. Hank, and other film and/or Coen Bros fans - this site has some very interesting video film reviews. He's already done 'The Big Lebowski', and 'Barton Fink' and No Country For Old Men' are coming soon.

    Rob Ager

  43. rooom101.d3015 May, 2009 10:56

    @ (room101.Bw) Bitterweed as you may well prefer to be known

    I had such complex trade offs in mind - hence "...tinges of regret..." and "....to some extent.." My shading in the way I use language don't always work!


  44. Montana

    Round of applause - he was bad enough on CiF sometimes but here, with total freedom, he really was the pits.

    Missed last night's fracas but looking through it today I have one question. Does anyone think bhp has a life?


  45. @ thaumaturge

    "Deano - your post ^^^ is very Stendhalesque!"

    Not familar so it's got to be - "thanks food for thought."

    Almost missed it tucked away as it was.


  46. Huge Coen brothers fan, Big Lebowski is the funniest film ever made, it gets better with every viewing.

  47. scherfig
    Thanks for that link...

    People like that always have a life, they're the centre of the universe...

  48. deano30: I posted what may turn out to be MY suicide note, as far as CiF is concerned, late last night.

    I could understand if you wanted to do something similar there, but please don’t do it here.

    I for one would miss you (that’s not something I often say to a Yorkshireman, BTW), as your perspective adds to the threads you’ve contributed to.

    Here’s what Lightnin Hopkins has to say about it:


  49. @ Brusselsexpats

    "Does anyone think bhp has a life? "

    Have to assume it is clouded in complexity although confusion for some is blinding clarity for others. I have more than enough problems understanding myself to be truthful.

    That Yorkshireish/Quakerish sort of perspective that says there is no such thing as bad beer and all of us can serve as some sort of example makes it difficult to decide.

    I hope to see a debate on here one day that looks at whether or not we ought to demand DNA samples from would be politicians. The day I read that socio/psyco pathy can be seen in the DNA code I will have a decision and a post in mind.

    I'm bloody convinced that creepiness in the uber creep Mandelson could be read if only we had the right spectacles!


  50. Montana, just when I thought my respect for you had peaked.......Well said!

    Jay - love that film, that rug really tied the room together is oft used in our house.....

  51. @scherfig

    In yours above you appear to have solved the mystery of how to post a direct/hot link to an external site. (Rob Ager works)

    If its not too difficult/time consuming to explain how its done can you share please?


  52. How do you give it a name?

  53. This comment has been removed by the author.

  54. deano - I adore Stendhal!

    Recommend Le Rouge et le noir - see wiki entry for info.

  55. @ andysays

    Loved that Hopkins!

    The rain sometimes brings unexpected pleasures for me.

    My net connection quality is very variable - moblile broadband via a dongle is sometimes hit and miss in rural locations(but improving)

    I often can't try out the video postings you all enjoy - but then some days the signal seem to bounce of the clouds better!

    I had the link to the Allegri - Miserere - Part 1 - Tallis Scholars from this thread the other day. I had forgooton how hauntingly beutiful it is.

    (I'm not a musician but I seem to remember that we owe our ability to hear the Allegri to Mozart who only heard it once and than wrote down from memory - it having been secretly locked in the Vatican for the exclusive enjoy of the toffs - but I might have my wires crossed here)

    Fuck knows how I get a video/audio signal it all. It's black box approach to techno for me.I never did understand how Thatcher got a signal to a submarine deep in the South Atlantic to sink the Belgrano but she did.

    Me I used to talk to me beloved late sister in her bedroom from my attic one via a tin can on the end of string - that fucking worked too!


  56. @ scherfig

    Thanks. I'll try and get my head around that it looks to be all there at a quick glance.

    It's stopped raining must get the dogs out for a leg stretch.

  57. @ thaumaturge

    Many thanks - will explore have no French but I do like all things red!

  58. Blimey. Looks like I missed a bit of a ding dong yesterday.

    Anyway, afternoon all. Dreary day in Durhamshire so no cricket. Boo. Dreary day at work as well, double boo, writing business justifications for something we should have had bloody years ago.

    Wish I lived on a desert island sometimes...

  59. room101.d30x15 May, 2009 13:04

    If I have abused an hospitality and/or offended an ettiquet is through ignorance rather than malice.

    In posting the following in the Guard I am in effect saying you may enjoy the atmosphere in here feel free to join. If he did and turned out to be difficult should I jump or wait to be pushed.

    (Its the Article about a whistleblower where I posted it)


    15 May 09, 12:52pm (1 minute ago)

    Alan I totally agree with Rapture above.

    Such fegging awful experiences in life can sometimes be the making of the man - you will know so much more about where that line in the sand which demarcates humans from tossers is drawn.

    You have my very best wishes - I have been close by that cold edge myself.

    If you need the company of a ragbag of interesting and understanding souls try the link below. You might even find one or two that Guard itself has blacklisted.


    Very kind regards - room101.d30"

    Of course flagging the Guard as a blacklister may lead to my expulsion from there too!

    Be interesting to see how long it escapes the mod. My act in posting of it here may lead to my exclusion there...........

    What was it someone was saying about Paranoia?

  60. Doohnibor, the quotes are endless, Walter is the daddy though. My mate got the best T shirt, silhouette of Walter pointing his gun with the text, "Mark it zero."

  61. "If I have abused an hospitality and/or offended an ettiquet is through ignorance rather than malice.

    In posting the following in the Guard I am in effect saying you may enjoy the atmosphere in here feel free to join. If he did and turned out to be difficult should I jump or wait to be pushed."

    I havent kept track of this whole row too closely but from what i;ve seen you havent been either rude or intentionally provocative, which to my mind is about the only etiquette round here, but this isnt my blog and im speaking for myself only.

  62. @ room101.d30

    let me introduce you to my old friends R But and R Wen esq (R but is actually pronounced Ah but..... and R Wen in the flesh comes out as Ah when...)

    They are little devices that for example are used by learned Judges use on LIPs who can spend two to three months in law libraries preparing a 10/20,000 word based written submission which a judge can read in about 3 to 5 minutes (thats the slow ones) 5,000 words a minute is not unknown form HM Judiciary.

    Having read paused for breath (and therefore signaled their digestion) they often respond by.............."R but (...we are not concerned with justice this is a court of law.."...etc)

    They might on th other hand cough and say "R (however) when....I was alad or......when I was last in Paris (playing golf) or any patronizing crap I choose to say cos there is no witness here to your pain and my indifference etc..."

    Whistle blowers have similar experiences of the collapse of language - ".......a word shall mean whatever I choose it to mean" - who said that or words to that effect ( HankScorpio will know ( I have an image of rabbits and rabbit holes............) it will come to me soon if Hank does not beat me to it.

    So my friend if they do mod you away you will at least have a record here since you have identified yourself and for the time being at least left a copy here.

    A refuge is a refuge is a place for those in need of shelter.............who said that ?

    We should all help each the other to prepare for room101 just in case.

    Regards room101.d30

  63. Ha ha, I got my husband one with Jesus in profile licking his bowling ball and ended up wearing it when I had my son....there's an interesting omen....

  64. @ Jay R

    Thanks I never could spell "etiquette " so double thanks. Of course non of us guesting here could ever speak for any but ourselves. And some of us struggle to do even that

    I enjoy reading what you have say Regards

    I hear Alice in Wonderland but I may be mistaken.

  65. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to go! Montana. As others have said we've shown him enough tolerence!

    Re LHOTP - I think it was about what she WaNTED her father to be. It is very idealised!

    I have to confess that although I know its unrealistic romantic nonsense I actually quite enjoy it more than the Waltons.

    Its not harmful as long as you know its not reality.

    Funnily enough my parents actually gave me the impression that live was like that(not a good idea!). It took me a long time to learn how to cope with reality!

  66. "Ha ha, I got my husband one with Jesus in profile licking his bowling ball and ended up wearing it when I had my son....there's an interesting omen...."

    Lucky child, i hope he appreciates it when he's old enough to love the Lebowski.

    I got two t shirts, one is Walter, "Am i wrong?", the other just says, "Is this your homework, Larry?"

  67. Hi Annetan42 - did you know that you have been nominated as the new PM?

    At least, I think that's what it was for. Cif mods have kindly removed Allyf's post, mentioned above.

  68. How about a new BNP Walter t-shirt?

    'I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.'

    That should get the voters to the ballot box.

  69. Well he's been known as 'the dude' since the first day....

    Poor little sod has no option but to love it, his dad will disown him if he can't recite the script verbatim by the time he is 10.

    I was going to go out on the piss tonight, but I think I might stay in and watch The Big Lebowski again instead. And get pissed, of course.

  70. Mildly diverting stuff on the "The end of one-size-fits-all feminism" thread over there.

    One thing I wonder sometimes is how relevant modern feminism is to yer average modern woman (i.e. not hi-flying, not nanny-juggling, not big earning, not Alpha-Mummy etc)?

    How much of a deal to this average woman are the issues which something like Harriet Harman's Equality Bill are designed to counteract?

    Or is it a case of "you may not realise it, but you are being oppressed and we are doing this on your behalf"?

  71. Doohnibor - check this Lebowski video-review out first. You might find something new in the movie.

    rob ager

  72. Swifty - 'How much of a deal to this average woman are the issues which something like Harriet Harman's Equality Bill are designed to counteract?'

    Someone on a fem thread ages ago was banging on and on about flexible hours and legislation for working from home. I raised the question as to how one could work from home if your job was the Tesco check-out or McDonald's. It didn't register for some reason. Selfish middle-class pricks.

  73. I disagree that its mildly diverting, I think I've reached saturation point with articles debating the nature of feminism on CiF.....I used to quite enjoy wading in, but now it's just same old same old...

    (Of course, the comedy articles (for example, transcripts of Bindel and Burchill's email exchanges) are still good for a post or two).

  74. I'll be on that later Scherfig!

  75. Don’t know if anyone else has noticed (I haven’t read the article yet, far less the comments). but BeautifulBurnout’s ATL piece appeared at 11.30 today.

  76. @scherfers:

    I've often wondered about that. I have a vested interest after all - a five year old daughter who'll at some point take her rightful place in society, and I'd hate to think that all this middle class, academic, professional-feminist navel gazing was just so much hot air.

    @doohnibor: maybe I was being polite. But I read it, because I was wondering whether it would shed light on something I was interested in. And the discussion has raised one horror - CiF Gender.

  77. Anyway, that thread has now descended into the usual slanging match and point-scoring which so characterises CiF these days.

    Ho hum.

  78. Excellent link Scherf, lot to read but very good stuff, adds some new dimensions to what was already a masterpiece.

    "'I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.'"

    Makes me laugh just thinking about Walter.

    "Poor little sod has no option but to love it, his dad will disown him if he can't recite the script verbatim by the time he is 10."

    10? This is the trouble with todays liberal parents, too soft on them. Give him till his 7th birthday and not a minute longer.

  79. Doohnibor, I hope you saw Raising Arizona before you had your boy.

    'Ma'am, you don't breast-feed him, he'll hate you for it later. That's why we wound up in prison.'

  80. Swifty - Yes! CiF Gender....I think I actually banged my head on the desk when that one was mooted.

    And I thought I was a feminist....

  81. I'm very ashamed to admit this, but I've only seen RA once, when I was completely twatted, and I have no real recollection of the film....but I will watch it again, if only on the basis that it will give me a response next time I'm pulled apart for not breastfeeding my babies!

  82. @doohnibor:

    "And I thought I was a feminist...."

    I'm sure you are. Just a "normal" one with normal concerns, interests, point of view etc.

    "I've only seen RA once"

    I'm equally ashamed (in these parts) to admit I've only ever seen The Big Lebowski once. I can't remember much about it, to be honest.

  83. I think we might get thrown off for admitting these things....

    I returned to that thread, I couldn't help myself, Jessica has conceded that in terms of feminist articles, they 'could do more'.

    I think we can consider ourselves warned.

    Don't worry Jay, I'm not a liberal parent, my kids watch tv and have never been introduced to a lentil.

  84. I am quite a liberal parent. I look after my daughter on a Sunday when MrsSB is at work (and some Saturdays too if she works extra shifts) and I often end up feeling like that bloke in Outnumbered (or whatever it was called). Hopelessly out of my depth.

    MrsSB is *much* more robust in her dealings with Junior. Causes a bit of friction in the SwiftyBoy household sometimes.

  85. Bet you lose in the end though.....

    When Mr D looks after the children they pick up some pretty frightening language and and a heavy sprinkling of quaver dust.

    He's not a liberal parent either.

  86. "I'm equally ashamed (in these parts) to admit I've only ever seen The Big Lebowski once. I can't remember much about it, to be honest."

    Swifty... really...

    Though first time i watched it i wasnt blown away exactly, but its one of those comedies that needs a few viewings to start to uncover all the gems.

    Glad to hear about the lentil situation, Doohn, that really would be grounds for a ban.

  87. Friday night and the lights are low...

    I'm a liberal parent...my kids do what they like.
    As long as I don't find out about it they're fine.
    Life's about not getting caught: or it may as well be. Sounds irresponsible I know, but if they were up to anything too bad, I'd hear. Unless of course they're really good at covering up in which case, how would I find out anyway?

    I used to go swimming in the Mersey as a kid. My dad took me. He always told me swimming there was a lesson in life. "Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut." We didn't really need telling. The mosaic of floating turds and dead seagulls would have convinced us anyway.

    None the less, good advice. Just a little incongruous coming from a man who could rant for Ireland and spent so much of his leisure time blind drunk. At least I manage to keep my eyes open.

  88. Hi everyone

    Montana, you made a good decision. As the saying goes, freedom of speech does not include freedom to shout Fire! in a crowded theatre.

    And BillP was certainly testing everyone's patience quite deliberately if you ask me, to see who would crack, how, and when. Not a nice thing to do in such a cool place to hang out as this.

  89. BillP is as much fun as watching the Eurovision song contest - both make me want to emigrate. We must be on our guard that he doesn't return under another alias. That would be like a horror movie where the Thing you thought was dead springs back to life.

    Talking of the undead tonight they're showing Bram Stoker's Dracula as the late night film on one Belgian channel with dishy Gary Oldman, who can take a chunk out of my neck any time.

    Tomorrow is the expats' garden party in Antwerp -which means it's guaranteed to bucket down. And true to form, after a lot of mild weather, we had a storm and major cloudburst here last night. People all over Flanders have been baling the water out of their homes. Tipped down again today so I'm really looking forward to getting soaked tomorrow. Ah the joys of summer, getting rainwater in your tea.

    Still I always like buying from the second-hand book stall - expect I'll come back half-a-dozen volumes.

    BB - liked your article. I was late contributing because I didn't see it at first.

    Have a nice weekend y'a all.


  90. Thought I'd repost this here as monkeyshark has just suffered his first deletion and I'm afraid, they might have just noticed his presence.


    Nice piece this. Well written and highlighting a genuine dilemma. This is what cif should be doing: putting up pieces that can inspire genuine debate. One quibble...

    "This article has been published in response to usini's request in a You tell us thread for Cif commenter BeautifulBurnout to write an article"

    I thought the original request called for you to write regularly, not just an article. I hope it's the first of many. Although a recommendation from me is hardly going to boost your chances so I'll shut up about that.Btw, has the other person mentioned put up a piece yet? You know, whatshisname, the one nobody had heard of...Seaton's mate.

    One other thing. I don't really want to hear Kennedy's response. Used to have a lot of time for her but I just see her now as a pseudo-leftish quangocrat, darling of the bien pensant elite. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for human rights and individual liberty but the notion that such issues take precedence over social justice and equality is the hallmark of a pseudolefty; the middleclass dilettante, striking a pose. Mind you, maybe the need for social justice and equality loses its immediacy for well paid QCs who can clean up from human rights cases.

    Furthermore,there are few people around who enjoy a few blows being landed on plod as I do but this is taking things too far. They can't be everywhere ffs. And where's speedkermit? This should be right up his street. Anyhow, since dissing Helena Kennedy is the Guardian equivalent of sticking a kitten in the microwave, I might just repost this elsewhere before the RSPCA gets to work with its blue pencil.

  91. The Martin Bell thread...another one with an uncertain shelf life...

    #Strange how many of the big villains of the expenses fallout are cif regulars...Blears, Smith, Mandelson....

    It's almost as though the GMG has a brief to gift sleazy bastards a platform from which they can pontificate and spew their hypocrisy. Then they have the nerve to ban posters for implying these people might be somewhat lacking in integrity and principles. hmmm...?
    Maybe they'd like to reinstate any posts deleted in the past for describing these people as dishonest lying bastards. It's only fair now the truth's come out.#

  92. I might double post everything now. All my previous comments are unavailable but when I consider it, all the ones I really liked were deleted anyway.

  93. Trying to catch up on the thread here, so forgive me if someone's posted the same thing before.

    scherfig "One thing I wonder sometimes is how relevant modern feminism is to yer average modern woman (i.e. not hi-flying, not nanny-juggling, not big earning, not Alpha-Mummy etc)?"

    Well, that's a damn good question. I consider myself fairly average - don't think I'm high-flying, no sprogs (ever!) so no nanny/Mummy stuff, decent earnings but certainly not in the MP class.

    And - I haven't had a chance to read the thread you reference yet, although I clocked it - most of the feminist stuff on Cif, and elsewhere, just seems completely irrelevant to my life. I don't feel discriminated against, I'm not getting bullied or dominated by men, I'm pretty sure I'm paid the same as a man in the same job with the same experience.....

    Now, women in Afghanistan and other places have problems due to sexism. I'm really, really not sure I have any. (Well, not due to sexism anyway!)

  94. MF - thanks!

    I dunno whether it is a one-off or a regular gig. I enjoyed doing it though, and the subject came from Natalie, so it was quite a challenge to find the right "voice" for it.

    Speedkermit will have kittens when he reads it. He seems like a decent regional rozzer to me.

    Sexism - well I can't say I have never suffered as a result of it, because I have. In a previous work lifetime, I was overstepped on the promotion ladder by a Young Turk when the job ought to have been mine hands down. Funnily enough, I had a female MD at the time - no idea about the psycho-dynamics of that one. But it didn't exactly scar me for life. Also, they knew I was studying part-time at the time too, so maybe their reasoning was that I was going to bugger off sooner or later so why take the risk.

  95. SwiftyBoy"I'd hate to think that all this middle class, academic, professional-feminist navel gazing was just so much hot air."

    Well, unfortunately it is. I was headed for academia at one point in my life. I was doing a master's in literature. Then I ran into the feminist lit professors.

    Being a feminist means that you don't have to understand the first thing about literary theory, or history, or marxist theory, or modernism, or post-modernism, or anything else. All you have to do is pick up a copy of any 200-year-old book and, with no historical context or critical reading whatsoever, decry it as an outrage on women.

    I will say that I also took a lot of history courses as part of my programme and feminist historians are a completely different breed: they do in fact understand that there is a historical context, surprisingly enough! And feminist historical theory is part of the larger neo-historical movement which includes marxist and other views of history that don't just focus on kings, date & battles, i.e. they explore what life was like for people of all genders (well, both) and classes. So well done to that.

  96. Wow! Anyone listen to Charlie Skelton on the Alex Jones radio show today?
    Dynamite stuff. I think The Guardian sent Skelton to Athens as a bit of a joke at the conspiracy theorists expense but my god has it backfired. Skelton now clearly shocked to the core as he begins to realise the size of the criminal conspiracy that is the Bilderberg Group.
    "Why is the Guardian the only paper covering this?" he asks, fear and bewilderment in his voice and Jones says "why did they send you if you're not a proper reporter?' or words to that effect. I can't wait to read Skelton's next report as his assignment ceases to be a joke and becomes very serious indeed...
    This looks like becoming a sensational piece of journalism- hats off to Charlie Skelton!
    You can download the interview from prison planet.com
    BTW, who was going to write something about the New World Order? Yeractual? Andy? we discussed it about a week ago...

  97. dan - I am intrigued to know what the Bilderbergs are up to. Let's hope Skelton's article isn't spiked.

    Thaum - it is listed as thread of the day *blushes*

  98. Forget Skelton - just read 'Foucault's Pendulum.'

  99. Thanks BB - have just given it a quick read but have been working for 12 hours or so, so I will give it a proper read when time permits!

    I'm not going to comment now on first impressions as everything is washing over me and I need to go to bed.....

  100. Anon - yeah, Foucault's Pendulum - I keep telling everyone to read it myself! Esp those Dan Brown following ijits.

    OK, really off to bed now ... zzzz.

  101. Foucault's Pendulum is one of my fave books! Haven't read it for a while - I need to dig it out again.

  102. Sorry, guys, anon was me. Foucault's Pendulum set the bar, Brown is umitigated shite stolen from Holy Blood, Holy Grail. And I see that Baigeant has a new one out, 'The Jesus Papers', presumably to cash in on the idea that he originally had, which someone then stole and made millions on, and Michael B. is pissed off about that, so another piece of 'research' rolls off the assembly line.

    This conspiracy stuff is a world-wide business worth billions. And that's what I call a REAL conspiracy! Stick with Umberto Eco - if you're going to believe in NWO theories, his is as plausible as any, and it's an entertaining read as well :o).

  103. Hi,

    I have just moved and had to wait for the internet to be connected - frustrating! Luckily I have a new kitten so I didn't get bored. Now though he just loves running across my keyboard.

    Swiftyboy - I don't feel held back by any sexist attitudes in general although I have to admit there are a few things that have happened.. I have a background in chemistry/biology/maths and on applying for some jobs I have come across some discrimination, one incident that sticks in my mind was calling to get an application pack for a job that I had all the relevant quals and exp for and being told by the guy hiring that it wasn't suitable for a girl as the hours were shifts (8am - 4pm one week, 10am - 6pm next week) and that this was antisocial and I wouldn't cope. This was a few years back now though. That really annoyed me - I can decide that for myself! I also did feel acutely aware of the fact I was in the age bracket that women start having children when applying for jobs in the past few years, particularly when I was living in London, I am not saying I was discriminated against, just that in some interviews I felt I had to work extra hard, maybe I was being over sensitive, who knows? But that is something that is almost impossible to prove.

    Also I have had some terrible experiences in garages when getting work done on my car - luckily I have a pretty good understanding of mechanics and petrol cars. Now I felt that I was patronised by some mechanics as I was a girl and couldn't possibly understand and certainly not bright enough to question or realise they were trying it on. But having said that, men may also get this experience for all I know.

    Generally though I have had a pretty good start in life and am no more disadvantaged than anyone else with a similar background.

    I used to think of myself as a feminist, but frankly reading some of the stuff the feminists on cif have come out with... it makes me cringe and I prefer to think in terms of equality for all now.


  104. Oh and Montana - well done, bravo and thank for all your work on the blog. I have been catching up on what has been happening whilst I was offline and if I were in your shoes I think I would have been pretty upset that the nice space I had created for friendly banter and discussion had been hijacked in such a way. It's easier to ignore certain posters on cif than here for some reason. So just letting you know I am with the others in appreciating your efforts.

  105. @original:

    Don't worry about the garage thing - I know nothing about cars and I think mechanics sense this, they just see a big walking talking Switch card drive onto the forecourt when I turn up in our car!

  106. Anyway, bedtime for me.

    Good weekend all, I'll be around Monday.

  107. So nobody hates me for being a hypocrite, then?

    My 2 cents/pence on feminism vis à vis those of us who aren't middle class - well, yeah. Flexible work hours, working from home. Not possible for someone like me. However, I've been extremely lucky to have found a job where I get all the same time off as my son, so I have no childcare expenses. Month to month things are hard because I'm getting paid for 9 months of work stretched out over 12 months. I do get rent and food assistance, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for me to make ends meet. The thing is, if I got a job during the summer, I would actually come out behind because I would have childcare expenses but the on-paper increase in my pay would render me ineligible for the rent & food assistance. Affordable, flexible and GOOD childcare is an absolute necessity, but it never seems to take much priority.

  108. Montana - I am making some assumptions about you from previous posts, namely you are a teacher and that you bring up your sprog alone. If I am wrong I apologise. My mum brought me and my brother up as a single parent after she divorced my dad (he helped out, not putting him down but my mum had us kids 12 days out of 14). She is a clever lady and did her degree as an older student with a 4 yr old son. Then realistically the best option for her was to go into teaching. She does enjoy that but I think she may have chosen a different path had there been more flexible hours in other professions. Childcare was simply not feasible to allow any hours other than school ones. Whilst I think this has definitely improved re flexible working, I am inclined to believe there is a way to go yet.

    The issue I touched on before i.e. being female and a certain age and potential employers preferring blokes as they wont get pregnant and eff off on maternity leave could also be improved. I personally think that if post birth leave could be shared between parents and more men took up paternity leave maybe this inequality would slowly fade.

    And I for one don't think you are a hypocrite, :-)

  109. Oh and swiftyboy - I am sure they do sense it, I think dodgy mechanics are at least all for equal ops - rip everyone off regardless of gender (or should that be sex? I always forget).

  110. Only just managed to get back into things today, as the laptop CPU failed, as soon as I tried to connect to the hotel wifi; when I got to Edinburgh last weekend, & so I've been offline.

    I've only scanned most of the Cif items & BTL comments for the last two weeks but I did find it odd to see Ally being described as a men's rights campaigner, on the prisons thread. He's always struck me as being one of the few Cif bloggers who, whilst showing obvious support for more liberal forms of feminism than the editorial line supports, is more interested in the idea that we should all be equal. Perhaps it's his rather awkward habit of asking that readers be asked to form an opinion based on examination of the facts & not expected to accept ATL opinion as gospel.


    Congratulations on a well written piece that has actually managed to inspire a reasoned debate on the issues it addresses. Hopefully it will be the first of many such contributions.

    Must say that I can't see the idea of Cif Gender taking off, if Jessica Reed's notion that it be a "safe place" is adopted. This would basically turn the whole thing into a place where authors would submit ATL pieces in the expectation not of their take on a issue being debated BTL but, rather, to simply await the plaudits of a grateful public?

    Mind you, having seen some of the editor's contributions to the prison thread, it appears that this is the sort of place they'd like Cif to become (I nearly vomited when reading Matt Seaton & BTH's mutual admiration posts).

    Ah well, back to watching "The Fifth Element"; sad I know, but bringing in Gaultier to design the sets & wardrobe give it an incredible look; even if I do sit there & pick holes in their depictions of Edfu Temple - the thing is huge & set right in the middle of a large town/small city for God's sake - every time I watch it.

  111. i'm watching black books

    forgot how funny it was


  112. Little Boots, original. But I'm slightly non-plussed. Sounds like Blondie meets Human League. Yawn.

  113. Ah, sorry original, yuo're talking about something completely different. The cider is getting to me again...

  114. Im pretty sure Montana is indeed a teacher in Iowa who brings up her kid by herself, but regardless, billp will still believe he has stuck it to 'the man'.