16 May 2009

Daily Chat 16/05/09

On this day in 1700, a 14 yr. old Austrian girl married a 15 yr. old French boy.  Her name was Marie Antoinette.  He was Louis-Auguste, Duc de Berry.  In 1929, the first Academy Awards ceremony was held in Hollywood.  All Quiet on the Western Front won Best Picture.  Celebrating birthdays today:  Christian Lacroix, Pierce Brosnan, Olga Korbut, Hazel O'Connor, Krist Novoselic, and Janet Jackson.  It's Middlesex Day.  They'll be partying from Staines to Potter's Bar.

In case you're wondering what gems you missed out on yesterday: 

On 15 May, 1252, Pope Innocent IV issued the papal bull ad extirpanda, authorising torture of heretics.  In 1800, George III survived two assasination attempts and in 1940, the first McDonald's opened in San Bernadino, California.  15 May is the birthday of Brian Eno, Chazz Palminteri, Frank & Ronald deBoer and Patrice Evra.


  1. Brian Eno ! Whoot !!

    My LifNe in the Bush of o...


  2. All Quiet On The Western Front was a fine film. It was remade in the late 70s with John Boy Walton taking the lead role. Pa Ingalls played the hard-drinking proto-Nazi.

    Incidentally, Montana, Potters Bar is in Hertfordshire, not Middlesex. And wtf is Middlesex Day anyway? I reckon the only Ciffer who might celebrate it would be Natacha...

    And, according to my Simpsons calendar, today is Liberace Play-alike Day in Las Vegas.

    Can't believe you missed that! (-;

  3. This good:


  4. Blog: "A message to Billp"You guys have really banned Billp? Do you all feel fine about it, - no qualms? Does he have a right of reply to the 'message' thread?

    Should I feel insecure just asking this?

  5. Olga Korbut has a place in my story of the world while i was in it ,,thanks for the totally left field memories Daily Chat,,

  6. @Yeractual - yeh, I'm comfortable with it. No qualms at all.

    "Should I feel insecure just asking this?"

    Only if you're an adolescent who likes gesture politics and can't be arsed to look at the details.

  7. Thanks Hank,

    I looked at the details, which is why I asked if there were any qualms. But you knew that.

    As to gesture politics, I wouldn't presume. I'd be way out of my league here.

    Really, no qualms at all? OK (wink).

  8. Hank - Potter's Bar was included in the map of Middlesex that I looked at when getting the post ready. I guess I'm going to flunk that Home Counties geography quiz. IanMIDDX might want to celebrate with Natacha.

    Yeractual & Sealion - I can't say as that I have qualms. He hasn't been banned insomuch as blogspot doesn't have any sort of facility for banning people. The only way I could to that is to require all comments posted here to be approved before they show up and that's impractical for me. I don't mind people disagreeing. What I do mind is someone crashing in and being a belligerent jerk and alienating people left and right.

  9. PolyValentTuber16 May, 2009 03:40

    i just noticed this new poster over in the big playground,,by the name of rafferty,,check his archive,,

  10. "What I do mind is someone crashing in and being a belligerent jerk and alienating people left and right."

    If only the BBC had any new ones...

  11. Yeractual
    He was a stultifying bore with no left palm. Fuck him.

  12. You know who else is an irritating bag of shite? Bitethehand. Yep. And I'm saying it here because I know he reads this, probably every day in search of stuff to quote on Cif in his tireless campaign to be an ubercreep. He's just quoted comments that BB made in the prison reform thread into the thread on BB's article to try to make out that she's a hypocrite. God I hate him. I'd take BrusselsLout over him, any day of the week.

  13. Hello, is there anybody out there? You're needed on the BB thread where BTH's just posted:

    And just so we know where we stand on this matter, would Jane Nichol Bell say whether she works for the CPS and whether her work is involved in the defence of individuals like Ms Akhtar?

    I don't think that it's appropriate, to ask that BB 'out' her professional interests on CiF in this way.

  14. Yeah, we all miss bill. We all feel real guilty. He had so much to offer - he was pleasant and intelligent and contributed so much. He made this blog a much better place.
    Get real.

  15. I don't mind irritating shitbags, since it's a matter of interpretation. The problem with Billp, yeractual and sealion, wasn't his opinions (he has none), but the fact that he is a professional wrecker, a sociopath who suffocates any environment around him for his own benefit and pleasure.

    The idea that free speech just means speaking free is nonsensical anyway. Billp's appearance here was the antithesis of any kind of freedom of speech. I was avoiding this blog as were many others.

    Moreover, his advice on treating illnesses as mere imagination was in fact dangerous for vulnerable people. The guy isn't just quirky, he's truly dangerous. I made reference to the Talented Mr Ripley, because I think it is apt.

    Anyway, here's a thought:

    Billp no longer posts here, thus the topic of Billp is irrelevant. Let's 'move on'.

  16. Blast Damn Shit and all the thousands of other cusses I know!!!!

    And all rearranged into all the infinity of permutations that then follow...............

    My Acers are starting to get leaf burn from that shagless east wind.Fuck.

    It really is red in tooth and claw out there - the walk this morning revealed no less than 8 desecrated birds eggs all emptied of contents and laying shattered on the ground. Don't know why - still thinking about it.

    @ BB Glad to see you got your Blue Guard [C] sticker by your posting moniker. Enjoyed the article and I do intend to post a comment in support and one based on ideas/observations that flowed from what your ATL. for now have a Gold *.

    By the way a tech question - how long before BB's piece is closed for comment? Anyone know?

  17. Middlesex is no longer an administrative county.
    If you look ata a map of Historic countiesYou will find middlesex between Hertfordshire and Surrey.

    If you look at a modern map it seems to have disappeared into Greater London but bits may have neded up in Hertfordshire or in Surrey.

    Middlesex does survive as a cricket club and a postal address

  18. @ anntan42

    There is only one historic County and it begins with the letter "Y" - must dash to shops.

    Looks like BB could do with some "diluting/distracting support" while she deals with a thread of spiteful posters over at her piece on the Guard.


  19. Afternooon all - bought Torygraph this morning and must say they are doing a superb job with the expenses stuff. They had a go at Nadine Dorries today - yay! And various back-benchers. Absolutely ridiculous claims.

    Unfortunately Cameron is coming out of this well because he has the political nous to do the right thing, e.g. immediately inspect all his party members (or so he says) and eject those with iffy claims. Labour back-footed again.

    Been working all day and will be again tomorrow so hope I can get to BB's thread before it closes!

  20. When I said "e.g." I meant "i.e." - bleah.

  21. errrrrrrrm

    Interesting some live one sided moderation going in BB's battle or synchronized hitting of the "abuse" button my little post in praise of BB's first effort and mild piss take rebuke of the big boots of Bitethehand lasted only 5 minutes before removal from the moderator

    Sorry BB smokescreen not much good on this occasion I had hoped to draw some flack by the mention of "blade". As always the danger got me moderated out PDQ so not any real use in the event.

    Pity can't stay and offer more support but a heavy weekend calls.

    Sure that when I get back BB will have defended herself with flying colours - I hope so an obvious concerted and seedy baptism of fire in progress over there.

    Looks like a gang attack in progress

  22. r101 - no worries. It's only the usual suspects. Splitting hairs and misquoting is not much of a problem :o)

  23. Well my country begins with W so I won't get into that argument!

    But I'll raise my "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau" to your Ilkley Moor any day!

  24. You're holding yr own just fine there BB... keep up the good work...
    Just want to say HI THERE... to any lurkers XXXX

  25. thaum - you bought the TORYGRAPH?!!

    Did you wash you hands afterwards? :o)

  26. Just leaving a copy of some dense smoke "here" before it is deleted "there"


    16 May 09, 3:47pm (1 minute ago)

    @ millytante

    "Will you admit to the fact that the police and the legislative have both been reluctant to take on the task of addressing traditional culturally based gender violence?"

    Perhaps, and I stress just perhaps, the biggest "absentees" in all of this sorry mess were the mums of:

    "..... the police and the legislative......

    that you considered to

    "......have both been reluctant to take on the task of addressing traditional......."

    I know that when I have been turned over by these symbols of of respectable discomfort I have, in the darkness of my corner, wondered what kind of mothers these people must have had.

    Likewise I wonder when my and my sometime wifes lives are over wheter or not we shall, in our two sons, in truth leave two well balanced young men in happy long term mutually cooperative and loving relationships. We natuarlly hope so.

    But we also contemplate a nightmare ( as those who live in room101 often do) will we (he and she) have left two ill tempered wife bashing thugs or will we

    Equally we worry will their female partners be liberal sensitive women who will work with them to bring a new balanced generation to follow or will they be loud aggressive harridans. We naturally hope not.

    If our sons turn out to be less than we would have hoped and have unacceptable aggressive tendencies I will accept my part in the in the allocation of responsibility

    . - But so too will their mother for she and I both know that she had a very important part to play in molding their characters.

    I know that when the police and legal representatives of one kind or another inflicted such damage and hurt that they did during the final miners strike - many of the women of those communities wondered what kind of women could have brought such men up the way they did>

    When I read the piece I wondered not only what the police and CPS had been up to but also what her family were doing at the time.

    In circumstances like those of the poor lady who died in this case had our daughter been the one involved both my sometime wife and I would have spent the rest of our lives in tears of angst - constantly questioning ourseleves why did we not know where our girl and the bastard who killed her where at the time of her death.

    Even if her mother had been dead their are plenty of females in our family who would have intervened and tried to make sure that somebody at least phoned the police to find out what had been happening.

    That poor lady was let down not just by people in uniforms and authority but by a much wider failing in her community which included men and women in roughly equal parts. May she RIP, and her sisters who seek to learn from her demise think hard about where all the failings lay. May it not have been a negligent female police or CPS person.


    My also re-award a Gold Star+ for a very stimulating first ATL piece which I tied to give Jane Nichol Bell in my piece above which was removed by what I thought was a humorless and heavy handed less than moderate person.

    Pieces on CiF are intended to stimulate discussion and in this Ms Bell gets 10

  27. @ Montana

    I'm just leaving the following here temporay I'll collect a copy later and then delete it here so that I don't liiter your great site.


    16 May 09, 4:23pm (1 minute ago)

    @ Bitethehand

    I am sorry that my fraternal greetings to you above were deleted so for the sake of a harmonious community I'll say again - Hello good to meet you.

    I have a dog that bites the hand but sensibly both it and I know what I keep in my various pockets so we get on just fine.

    I must away the shops to buy some ink for my printer cos I have limited vision and I need a print out of all the comments if I am to keep up with the debate.

    "I may be gone some time" - "but I will return". it's not just ballet that I am good at but I am still learning the art of island hopping.


  28. Montana.

    My qualms in this matter aren't necessarily a disagreement with what happened or support for any particular individual: they're more tenuous and vague than that. I don't have an answer, or even a specific issue, I just have some concerns, some of which may be applicable here and some not.

    In a nutshell, my concern is this: to go from where you were to where cif is requires a first step like this. Thats not to say that the road you're on will lead there, but the step you've made is a step in that general direction.

    In a sense, you got lucky in that this particular offender (who I have absolutely no time for) agreed to go if asked. This is highly unusual behaviour for a troll. Bearing in mind that this site has strong links to a place with more trolls than Middle Earth it is highly likely that more will arrive, ones who won't go when asked.... so what happens then?

    Incidentally, I think the charge of hypocrisy is unfounded as he wasn't banned or censored, he was asked to leave, and he did: no coercion was involved.

    What I'm saying, I guess, is that I think its better to formulate a policy now, rather than react later. By making a policy you set the agenda and you are making plans for what you want the site to be. By reacting to trolls they set the agenda and it evolves with less coherence.

    One great example of a blog that didn't think (and ended up with a totally different problem, one which has a small possibility of happening here) is Cath Elliots. In this case her blog is effectively policed by 4 posters (you know who they are) who are suspicious and hostile to anyone who disagrees with a very narrow interpretation of feminism. Cath says she welcomes disagreement and discussion.... she may well do, but her fan club don't and stifle any debate that happens immediately. She has lost control of the comment space, and if she wanted to regain it she would have to set herself against her own fanclub.

    Sorry I don't have any more concrete suggestions, and I agree that the place is better without bill so I don't think it was a mistake, I'm just slightly concerned about what road this takes the site down.

  29. @ annetan42

    "Well my country begins with W so I won't get into that argument!"

    Thank God it doesn't begin with "L" I was just thinking that I might come to know and like you but had it gone on to be "*ancashire"

    I would have struggled.

    Albeit I spent many happy years studying at their traditional(historic) County HQ. And since in truth I do like red roses (I indicated to someone on here recently that I adored all things red) so I have to say that even were you a sodding Lancastrian I'm sure I would have still liked you.

    BB - (if she is surfacing for light relief here from time to time) may like to know that I have first hand experience/evidence of the dipso habits of Judges which I gathered whilst working as a dustbin man in the Morecambe Bay area.

    At one very grand and very large home of a retired judge we had to have two to lift the bins there were that many empty bottles in them - each and every week not just at Wimb and Ascot time.

    He always said it was his wife and she always said it was him - they took it in turns to appologise each for the other whilst falling over in the drive on alternate weeks!

    He were a right pisshead - the first of many unsavoury legals that I have met.


    now I really must sod off and do some shopping.


  30. Deep breaths. Deep cleansing breaths. Don't let the sad little wanker and the delusional Finn get you riled.

  31. I think you are saying something of interest Sealion but at the min I am unable to join in but hope to so later.


  32. sealion said:
    Incidentally, I think the charge of hypocrisy is unfounded as he wasn't banned or censored, he was asked to leave, and he did: no coercion was involved.

    What I'm saying, I guess, is that I think its better to formulate a policy now, rather than react later. By making a policy you set the agenda and you are making plans for what you want the site to be. By reacting to trolls they set the agenda and it evolves with less coherence.

    Spot on.

  33. Sealion -- Back in my Usenet days I was a regular on an alt.fan group that was a little community of its own. It was almost always a genial place, but every now and then someone would pop in and start trying to rile everyone. We reacted with merciless, unanimous flaming until the person left, which they always did in fairly short order. I don't want to see that happen here, mind you. There simply isn't the facility on blogspot to ban particular people. The comment moderation is limited to either requiring people to do one of those 'captcha' things when they comment (and, god, I hate those) or to require that all comments be approved before appearing. Doing that is just impractical for this site. Part of the 'fun' here (at least, as far as I see it) is the somewhat spontaneous, conversational tone of the comments. Since no one can sit here 24/7 moderating comments, I think it's best to keep comments the way they are. Perhaps I should add a little blurb under our title about newbies being welcome, as long as they don't come here looking to pick fights?

  34. Another for a temp resting place before it gets deleted ( my hard disc is nearlly full and prone to crash)


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    room101d30's profile picture room101d30

    16 May 09, 5:23pm (1 minute ago)

    @ BeutifulBurnout

    "Those who know my past comments from elsewhere on CiF know very well I am the least likely person to be looking for excuses for the police. :o)"

    Had I thought otherwise it would not have been a Gold Star+ from me and only a 9/10 for a first time above the line.

    If you were appearing before an Appellate Judge of sensibility you would have already been told you had passed the test. One small pip to add to many to come I hope.

    Anyone who concludes that I make different assessment for Lady Judges because of my comments in my post above would be equally wrong

    I hope this thread is not closed before I have time to add my comments about Baroness .Kennedy QC - they are far from flattering.

    When I find a female Judge with the character and courage of that tiny lad from Hampshire Denning MR, I would be just as (sometime) impressed with her as I was with him.

    And when I was disgusted with him as I sometime was I was pretty brassed off too.

    My disgust for both Denning and Kennedy have the same root - an inability to deal with the hi jacking of Justice by Law

  35. Yep good post all round there sealion... perhaps some kind of policy statement would be a good idea wildhack?

  36. 3p4pointzero16 May, 2009 17:51

    its personal integrity that is required to deal with this future,, as every thread with trolls says somewhere "dont feed the trolls",,recent events have shown that only a short time of carrying on the dialogue WITHOUT responding to trolls will work,,trolls live on the nectar of
    attention,,in fact how can you tell a troll from a bad attitude except by frequency of post and obtusity of two way dialogue,, and like other nectar fueled entities they have high metabolism
    and need constant feeding,,

    i would suggest the community here could adopt a distinct and specific policy of "not feeding trolls",,

    the way this might be helped is if the above the bridge travellers call each other out if they see bread crusts being tossed towards the trolls

    actually Montana45calibremom your blog might have fun if the house descriptions of trolls was actually "DUCKS" then you can shoo away the trolls by responding with "Quack",,

    the problem is having your silence heard as approval,,we want to say something but anything we say is gasoline on the trolls bonfire,,
    so if we had one nonflammable reusable one size fits all response trools would soon starve,,
    if the House responce to aggressive nitpicking
    trollerized posts is always "quack quack" no one ever need be banned,,but they will have to bring there prose/attitude up to the House standards or the only response they are gonna get (and lots of them) is quack quack

    i think an important bit is to interject when someone has a moment of weakness and respond to a troll and say "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS,, THIS MEANS YOU"

    oysters needs grains of sand to grow pearls,,
    a troll is a grain of sand with a bad attitude,,
    i see many posts proudly declaiming the posters refusal to self censor,, very arrogant and macho
    but being right is not much use if people will not listen,,i rarely have problems with peoples opinions,, but i have a lot of problem with their attitudes,,hyperbole is the tool of the intangible insult and obsfucation

    Quackquack is could be an attitude/ hostility modifier

    (not back for an hour or so,,dog to park time)

  37. Resting in temp postbox


    16 May 09, 5:51pm (1 minute ago)

    @ Gilda

    "Obviously this article is written by someone who is a complete crony of those in power and can see nothing wrong with anything they do, not even when they kill people.well isuppose she has a comfy potion for herself,being a barrister!

    With respect - in this case the person who died was killed by a thug of a husband. I would consider it entirely inappropriate to comment on the lady's choice of man because I know so little of the circumstances.

    The person with the most "influence" with the people in power in this case, and who you might consider a "crony" , is Baroness Helena Kenndey

    ( No relation to the best of my knowledge to JFK but one can never be sure any the more than I can be of my spelling and strangulated syntax)


  38. Hey Kizbot - long time no see over here.

    Just got back from a rather long garden fête. Miraculously it didn't rain. The clouds were banking up meanly and I felt sure I'd get a bucket of water on my head the moment I stepped out of doors but no, things held. Wasn't warm but at least remained dry.

    Had Pimms with crushed ice/strawberries and all manner of goodies. Bought some interesting stuff from Vietnam - a beautiful table coaster and hand embroidered bag and make-up holder. Plus six thrillers.

    I've had the most extraordinary week. Landed in hospital late Monday afternoon when I fell badly on my face and thought I'd lost my teeth (didn't). Taken to A&E in an ambulance but fortunately I didn't have concussion though I've been discovering fresh bruises each day and Wednesday the pain in my arms was so bad I could barely lift them. All that is gone now but I will have what for me is a quiet weekend - ballet next week.

    One good thing came out of it. I have a bit of a "trout pout" - just think normally I'd have had to pay 400 Euros for the privilege.

    Oh well got dressed to the nines to day and glad-eyed the very dishy vicar.....

    Have a good weekend everyone and don't get tied up in knots over what's happening on CiF. Enjoy yourselves.


  39. Vicar Bru! Vicar! You're a catholic!

  40. deano - thanks for your posts

    Bru - Pimms! I'm out of Pimms, and the shops here are all closed because of a major powercut (which only affected us for about an hour because were are on the borderline with another sub-station, thank goodness). I'm jealous now!

  41. How about if I put this up on the header, below where it says The Untrusted:

    While we welcome a wide range of opinions here, we respectfully request that all commenters show courtesy to others and refrain from personal abuse or deliberate provocation. We're here for community and fun, not shouting and name-calling. Trolls will be ignored.

  42. Hope you feel better soon, btw. I hadn't got to that bit before I posted. Take care xx

  43. Hey, Bru! Could you please e-mail me via my profile here? I'll explain in reply. Thanks!

  44. Kizbot

    Yeah well - you know we have to start building bridges sometime......

    To be honest I felt like a character in a Jane Austen novel - the one who always gets the curate.


  45. You are a card Bru... I hope you didn't do too much damage falling over... it's difficult to be elegant while wincing in pain... However did you manage to fall over? You weren't drunk... surely? That's my preserve!

  46. Thanks for all your kind comments. Kizbot - no I was not drunk......

    It was even funnier, and more appropriate than that. Believe it or not I had bought shoes - fancy pumps and I was crossing the road when I must have slipped on something greasy. I went down like a stone - I was lucky, it could have been much more serious than it was and I had a whole crowd of people hauling me up and giving me tissues to wipe the blood up. Anyway all's well that ends well. Funny thing was I was so dazed I almost left my new shoes on the pavement. Someone gave them to me.

    BB - Do you live in London? Is there no night shop for really important things like stocking up on Pimms? Never mind the barbie season is almost upon us - cool little cocktails (they had Pina Coladas on offer as well this afternoon)in the sun....


    I tried to email but it seems I'm not an invited guest so I couldn't get through. Any ideas supertechies out there (no use asking me)?


  47. Bru - here's the e-mail add: theWildhack@gmail.com

  48. Bru - I live in the sticks and 2 minutes away from a 23hr store - but they are 2 minutes in the wrong direction and had no electricity last time I looked - even the big tesco's on the outside of the town had blocked off its carpark to stop people getting in.

  49. OK Montana have done - you should receive an email from me under my own name. Hope this works.


  50. Gave up on BBs thread on CiF today, much as I want to join in. Good clarification on the law, BB, shame the thread morphed into something else.

    Short of issuing high risk domestic violence victims with a taser, the use of which I'm even prepared to consider in this context, what else can be done? There's new policies across the whole public sector, ACPO / CPS / NHS guidelines, better home security equipment, multi-agency training and case management.... I mean, people have put a lot of effort & resources into changing things, but it takes time for it to become mainstream.

    At the end of the day, you just can't necessarily predict WHEN an individual will kill even if you can predict that s/he may be likely to.

  51. Oooh that does sound a wee bit nasty Bru... I had a wee accident last night if it makes you feel better... Was a bit tiddly (Tis True!) and wearing a skirt... managed to get a nasty burn on the back of my thigh from sliding non too gracefully off the back of the corfiots motorbike and bare thigh touched the red hot baffle cover... Have been slapping burn cream on it all day but it still feckin hurts... Wot the bloody hell I'm still doin getting on the back of motorbikes at my age is anybody's guess...

  52. BB

    I used to live in a small village near Maidstone but we did have two great country pubs and a genuine old-fashioned off-license. So we were on the sticks but at least everyone could get merry.

    I hear pubs are closing down fast in Britain - that's really strange - I can remember the time when they were the mainstay of any local community.


  53. Help - I just realised that the one Saturday night I'm in, the Eurovision Song Contest is on. What a bummer this week has been....

    I'm going to start on those Barbara Vine thrillers I bought today.

  54. room101d30

    My favourite city in England is York! I lived in S Yorks for five years and my daughter and I went up there for christmas shopping every year.

    I of course live in the best city in Wales (although people in Swansea would not agree!).

    Regional loyalties! they crack me up!

  55. (((((Bru)))))) and (((((Kiz)))))

    Sorry about the mishaps hope you recover completely soon!

  56. Xmas shopping in York is stll fab, annetan. York has some lovely independent shops and an incredibly nice atmosphere. Also love the Minster, it's a wonderful piece of architecture. I like Lincoln too, for the same reasons.

    Glad that CiF has covered some less contentious feminist viewpoints than just the rad fem one this week!

  57. @sealion - interesting point. I think it's a damn shame that we need to regulate discussion on here, and I think montana's suggestion at 18.16 above is a good compromise.

    I think, tbh, and he'll be creaming his jeans as he reads this, that bill is a one-off. I don't honestly think that there will be many saddoes quite so persistent, so tenacious, so basically sad, who seek to make a misguided "intellectual" point about free speech in the interests of derailing this site in the future.

    If yeractual is reading this, hopefully he'll also see that his criticism, his "qualms", are misplaced.

  58. This comment has been removed by the author.

  59. Here's a cracker...specially the first couple of paragraphs


    Timely reminder. The Tories are coming.Fun and games in the public sector. Can't fuckin wait.

  60. You've all been busy since I last checked in! Will try to answer as I move down the thread....

    BB - yes, I know, shameful to buy the Torygraph. But it has a superb puzzle section on Saturdays, in which department the Graun is sadly lacking. Also they've got the expenses exclusive. I do admit that I hid it close to my chest when walking back from the shop - so no-one could see. Ran into neighbour, but hope he didn't notice.

    room101d30 - my mother and I were noticing recently that out of my 10 uncles/aunts/parents, only 1 or 2 have really formed successful relationships. A couple more are hanging on as if they had but you can tell it's not really working. Funny thing is that both sets of grandparents had loving relationships. We can't work it out.

    On with the rest of the thread now.

  61. Hankandproud(fuckyouBTH)16 May, 2009 20:49

    Sorry, andysays, I don't agree. There's a reason why we need to have restricted access threads and those reasons have been referred to obliquely here and at the other place.

    To spell it out, blogs like this seem like they might be friendly places, full of like-minded people, but there will always be lurkers who keep the place under surveillance and report back to their point-men.

    BiteTheHand is the most obvious example, a lickspittle with too much time on his hands and a direct line, via telescreen, to Matt O'Brien.

    On the modding thread which went viral the other week, BTH loved Big Brother and named names, and as a result the likes of FatTony and others were ushered into Room 101, never to be seen again.

    BTH also responded to a post by "monkeyshark" on JaneNicholBell's thread to the effect that "monkeyshark" didn't have the posting history on Cif to allow his view any credibility.

    There are some who think that BTH has written ATL for CiF. I find that difficult to believe, given that he's quite clearly a bit, well, inadequate.

    But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if BTH was a moderator.

    And given that BTH and Matt are such good friends, and that BTH's objet d'amour, ultima, seems to be immune from moderation, it seems eminently sensible to have a blog which isn't open to scum who wish to close down free speech from those who see them as bigots, zealots and/or idiots.

  62. I’ve just spotted the following on BB’s thread:

    16 May 09, 8:21pm (19 minutes ago)
    Don't blame the police for Sabina Akhtar's murder.

    No, blame the Muslim community. There are 1200 mosques in Britain. Why can't they set up a hotline staffed by female volunteers to help Muslim women threatened by husbands, by 'honour' killings or of being forced into a marriage they don't want.
    Then the Muslim community could be seen correcting the imbalance between men and women that many accuse Islam of fostering.
    No, don't blame the police. Where was the local Imam?"

    Where’s the rapid rebuttal force?

  63. @ annetan42

    "Well my country begins with W so I won't get into that argument!

    I just noticed that I acn't read well (pleading visual impairmment) - I wouldn't dream of relegating Wales to County status.

    Taff's are perfectly acceptable especially non taff speaking one's from the South of the delightful country.

  64. Bru - sorry to hear about your injuries & hope you are recovering well! Will be in hosp myself on Mon for (hopefully) minor surgery, as I was 4 weeks ago, and it's a pain in the arse.

    And am with kiz - you should stay away from vicars. But then I'm an atheist. ;-)

    Montana - It is your site and therefore yours to deal with as you wish. You were put in the impossible position between being called a hypocrite and getting rid of someone who was seriously disruptive and driving away congenial posters.

    I now feel a bit guilty of responding to a couple of the miscreant's posts on the ultimately offending night, but I skipped over the long, meaningless posts and found one or two things to respond to reasonably on the shorter ones. Apologies for troll-feeding but I was hoping a reasonable response to semi-reasonable points might mitigate the problem.

  65. Bru - "To be honest I felt like a character in a Jane Austen novel - the one who always gets the curate."

    LOL - but shouldn't that be a Brönte and shouldn't you have twisted your ankle so that the curate was forced to look after you for weeks?

  66. Ooh, kiz - sounds painful! We will all believe that that's how you got your burn marks on your thigh! ;-)

  67. This comment has been removed by the author.

  68. Bru (sorry if I'm boring everyone with multiple posts) - 'tis true that the pub is the mainstay of British village life, but 'tis also true that they are closing down at a rate of knots.

    I moved to a coooontry village about 3.5 years ago and, in a fortnight, knowing nobody for hundreds of miles, had a set of friends. Brilliant.

    That pub was first wrecked by "gastropubbers" and has subsequently gone out of business. Now we has to walk 8 miles uphill each way to next village.

    Pubs are being shut down by a combination of rapacious breweries and stupid government policies. It's a crying shame as they are great for community cohesion. In t' village, no young lad wanted to be barred from the pub, but now they all just go to the nearest downtown and wreak unpunished havoc.

    Also I love Rendell/Vine. Perfect summer reading!

  69. @andysays - fair do's, I probably did misread what you were saying. Anyhow, there's a couple of threads on here today which do the job you're looking for. Too pissed sadly to add anything of value to either of them personally...

    Anyway, when I submit my essay about tax havens to Mistress Wildhack, I will humbly request that she posts it both here and at t'Other Place(-:

  70. And am with kiz - you should stay away from vicars. But then I'm an atheist. ;-)Thauma -- so are a lot of vicars!

  71. Hank: That’s OK, you’re forgiven. Glad to see you’re man enough to apologise – again.

    Looking forward to reading your advice on tax havens, BTW, the rates of CGT etc have become quite punitive recently; what’s a chap to do?

  72. Flip to your second home, andysays. You know, the one with the moat.

  73. Montana - am sure you're right. T' vicar in my wee country village is a rum 'um, and that's no joke, and his good wife is always dressed for a vicars 'n' tarts party in overtight lycra.

    T' villagers all say, "hmmm".

  74. Thanks Annetan and Taumathurge

    Getting along nicely.

    I used to like the old country inns particularly in summertime.

    Concerning York - lovely place but reputed to be the most haunted city in England.

    In honour of Montana I vote we have a Halloween thread when the time comes....


  75. Not because I think Montana is a witch but because it's such a big holiday in the US.

  76. Re: All Quiet...: superb book. Also saw film in uni course - that was excellent too.

    Best line (am pissed now, please forgive) was somthing like "Let me get this straight: a mountain in Germany declared war with a river in France?"

  77. mschin: Hi, don’t think we’ve spoken before.

    While your suggestion is welcome, I suspect I’ll just carry on slumming it here in my little flat in Tottenham.

    The potholes and puddles in the road are not a proper substitute for a moat, but I can dream.

  78. .thaumaturge said...
    " room101d30 - my mother and I were noticing recently that out of my 10 uncles/aunts/parents, only 1 or 2 have really formed successful relationships. A couple more are hanging on as if they had but you can tell it's not really working. Funny thing is that both sets of grandparents had loving relationships. We can't work it out."

    I don't know either - I wish I did.

    When I speak of my "sometime wife" that is because that is what she is.

    She was and remains the love of my life and legally we are still married, speak with each by phone most days, occasionally holiday together,.r we dine and sometimes walk together - but we have not lived together for these last 8 nearer 9 years.

    She is elegant arty clever and when she walks into a room she clearly has presence. She is not and never has been short of secret and not so secret admirers. A thoroughly attractive person in all senses of the word.

    I am crass artisan not as clever as her and when I walk into a room people can't see me (It is a great pleasure in life that tramps like myself are invisible when out in the real world) She and many of her friends would be kind enough to say that in poor light I can be made to scrub up quite well.

    People always find her charming and warm and generous of spirit and time. They often find and say that I am the same (if I choose to let them get to know me)

    What totally confuses everybody who has ever met us is why she has a reserved way of speaking to me in public that both men and women find shocking. She does not swear - but she has for me the most acidic sharp edged tongue imaginable. It is so out of character that all who witness it having met her on her own are deeply shocked.

    My male friends all ask - how on gods earth do you tolerate that?

    I say - for me how she says what she says is less important than what she says. And what she says that I don't accept goes in the one ear and out the other.

    I care not a toss for what she thinks of me what matters to me is what I think of her - and there my passion and love for her is absolute unconditional and for ever.

    That said I always add ..."If only, if only she could learn to be civil then I might yet lern to stop being an uncivil tosser."

    It amuses and bemuses many who know us and they go away with this complicated idea of a couple who can't quite live with each other but plainly can't live without each the other.

    Lancashire men – perhaps I could manage two for breakfast but a wife like man one is quite sufficient for a lifetime thank you very much.

    There is time yet for us both improve.

    She remains the most influential woman in my life for I value her opinion and values and enjoy the love and warmth whenever she chooses to give some my way. She often indicates she enjoys my company but finds my ways irritating.

    Who am I to complain at that. I tell her you find me difficult? - what do you think I find I have to live with me (24x60)x7x365 and it's a bloody life sentence.

    George Melly once said in describing his declining libido – “oh thank fucking god it's like being unchained from a fucking lunatic.”

    My lass might have replied to that - if only!

    The wider issue of the position of relationships in contemporary society is an interesting one. I think it is to do with the rise of the cult of individualism and the decline of the co-op.

    I am serious about that. The co-op gave people of my background a daily model of a sensible why to structure economic activity, practical politics and an intuitive understanding of what was in their all round best interests.

    You used to be able to get divi on your funeral - a powerful incentive to stay together. A divi number not being divisible by two

    And then when trade unions got full pay for 18 year old..................and feminism................eunuchs are eunuchs female or not .............it means they have something missing from tween legs or ears...........

    Don’t start me on that one

    Best W

    Ps – my mother argued and cussed at my father all his life she once went to a pub armed with a frying pan to hit him in disgust at not being home often enough – that’s not something that is wise to do to a Yorkshire miner in font of his mates!

    To his dying day he did not have a clue about how many spoons of sugar he took in his tea. And when one morning he fell from the toilet to his death of undiagnosed TB the last word he ever spoke was a shouted “Alice” my mams name.

    Foe my mothers part she could never even remember my name - which begins with a D constantly calling me by his name which was Jack

  79. Bru - I think Hallowe'en is a big thing in US from Celtic influences - we always had costume parties and bobbing for apples in Ireland.

    One of those things that pre-dates christianity but was somehow absorbed by it: like xmas and easter. :-p

  80. "....but a wife like man one is quite sufficient for a lifetime thank you very much"

    That's not Freudian! but ".......a wife like mine"

    That could have got me a right tongue lashing had she seen it.

  81. dropinbucket16 May, 2009 22:35

    All I’m saying is that some of the discussions (like the one Peter, lester, olching and you,

    hi lester,,didnt know you were around here,,

    sorry but i dont go in the snug,,i like it out here in the front bar

  82. room101d30 - thanks for a poignant tale. Just goes to show how complicated human relationships can be. Have had my share.

    Don't mean to sound flippant, but am currently involved in a relationship that revolves purely aroung sex and friendship (not necessarily in that order). At first, being conditioned to the "all sex must lead to love or at least committed relationship" mantra, it did my head in, but now that I've realised that I can enjoy it for what it is, I am enjoying it mightily....

    I don't want someone else in my house, my space; a great shag and a good laugh on a regular basis is perfect.

  83. The attached links give photographs of where my mam was born.

    The first Link shows what could have been the smallest co-op in the UK. The small shop you see was a coop that served the terrace of houses with two smaller side rows of "posher" houses.

    Sorry ain't quite got the art of posting a live link yet. If you want the view you'll have to copy and paste.



  84. @ thaumaturge

    Good on you young miss - enjoy.

  85. "...She is not and never has been short of secret and not so secret admirers. A thoroughly attractive person in all senses of the word. "

    How often an ambiguity creeps into what we write in haste - I should add that she has never been unfaithful in her life.

    Sadly ..............like so many ...........can't keep his hands off it or keep it in his pants.........

    But no woman walks this earth who ever heard me say that I did not love my wife and always would. Non ever heard me say that our lass does not understand me, most heard me say she understands me only too well

    Because I never did. Several thought they might persuade me different but they never did and I always knew they never would.

    Life is indeed full of contradictions and silliness and plain daftness at times. But who would be without it when the sun shines .....

  86. Thauma -- I'm thinking that Halloween is more or less the 'Christianised' (barely) version of Samhain, isn't it? It is a pretty big deal here -- excuse for kids to get free candy & for grown-ups to wear costumes and get drunk. What's not to love, right?

  87. This comment has been removed by the author.

  88. Yes, Montana,, it's some kind of version of Samhain.

    When I was growing up, it was a good excuse to have a ghoulish costume party with bobbing for apples and other entertainments - entirely private, though. These days, I think the American model has penetrated a bit with the calling round houses asking for sweets, but I think that is also a bit confused with the 'penny for the guy' thing in the same week.

    Me, I lurk in the back of the house with the lights off cos I don't have sprogs and have just been reminded by a colleague before going home that it's hallowe'en and I don't have any sweets in the house....

  89. andysaysK - good luck on the course and thanks for the entertainment recently! ("Imagine my surprise...".)

  90. pls ignore extraneous K - I iz pissed.

  91. Thaumaturge and Montana

    I used to bob for apples as well as a child and my mother used to make toffee appels for Halloween. I love the autumn festivals generally, Guy Fawkes as well.

    In Belgium Halloween was hardly on the radar until about five or six years ago when it really took off. There's a big US expatriate community based mainly round the Waterloo area of Brussels and on October 31st it looks like that spooky film "Halloween" with all the pumpkins on the porches. Even in Flanders they do up their houses. I walked past one house last year and did a double-take. There was a skeleton seated on a bench and wearing a ghostly cobwebby shroud. Someone really had imagination. I just hope they didn't light it up at night and give someone a heart attack.


  92. Andy, I think that it is inappropriate that you refer to private discussions on a private thread (that you have access to) and name the topic and the participants on this open thread. Irrespective of your views on 'openness' and 'secrecy' this is a matter of trust and respect. You have shown neither.

    The phonebooth is not Bilderberg or NWO. You are of course not saying “if you don’t do this, all you Phone Boothers are a bunch of secretive manipulative hypocrites”. So why say it then?

  93. Fucking hell, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves. Apparently, Ultimathule is the most reasonable, principled poster on Cif. And apparently BigNosedBard is part of our cabal. Am I the only person here who didn't know that?

  94. what are you talking about, montana?

  95. Interestingly there is the acid the test for many.

    " ..........in my house,...."

    The house which you now enjoy can be such a bone of contention when people split. So many of our divorced friends cannot understand how we did it without a lawyer.

    It was easy we sold the house we had only ever had the one bank account a joint one from when we married about 40 years ago. All the money went into that.

    We divided it by two. All of shared treasures we sp[lit fifty/fifty. You choose any item then I choose till they have all gone. Ladies first.

    A small number of items that had particular value we agreed to auction between us. Highest bidder wins but pays the other for his/her half at 50% .

    She had enough to buy herself a small house (so did I if I had wanted to at the time) she did I decided I really preferred to live like a tramp in a caravan. Some men are really best kept in a shed albeit a tin one on wheels.

    I still have the joint account she could access my money any time she wanted to I never changed the passwords etc.

    As I said I knew and loved not only her but her values. She really is a class act and if I have made her out to be any other than that then I am unfair.

    What was even more starnge was that her mum who lived into her 80's only died a couple of years ago. (A straight out Alan Bennet kind of lass they had a shop in Armley not far from where he was a child) Refused to take sides.

    ".........Well our C he's always been all right with me and I'm not going to say a word against him ........" and that after she heard we were to separate. Ladies of her ilk are usually partisan to say the least.

    The kids? - the were all grown up and gave one united message from all three " We ain't taking sides" They were never asked to so it wasn't a problem.

    I put it down to not having involved lawyers - you may have picked up that I have a difficult history with people in horse hair head warmers BB excepted

    Of course the truth is that my legal battles also put an enormous strain on the relationship. I am bloody minded and stubborn (she might say beyond belief) All that crap about lunatics may be true perhaps there really is something in the water in Yorkshire after all she should know she's a Yorkshire lass albeit with ballet classes from an early age.

    Her hip joints were such that she could never make the grade in ballet but she danced profess in "shows" for several years before going back t study as a mature.

    Enough of this rambling it makes the thread a long scroll down for others

  96. Best of luck with the studies Andy

  97. Yeah, Andy, I don't want you to think that you're being ganged up on here, but I must say I agree with scherfig. I was not real comfortable with your reference to specific threads and posters there. There are reasons why it's private and, quite frankly, I won't hesitate to revoke reading privileges the next time anyone who has access violates the confidentiality.

  98. This is what I was talking about, scherfig:

    16 May 09, 10:25pm (about 1 hour ago)


    What's going on? Ultimathule has had so many comments deleted.

    Ah BigNosedBard, your problem is that a serious search of the Guardian's website comes up with just 5 results - none of which are posts that you've made, and all of which are responses to your less than juvenile questions. You see deletions are a kind of rite of passage, or as I said earlier to monkeyshark, part of your apprenticeship. But if you're only around for a few hours, it's doubtful you'd even have time to have signed your indentiture, yet alone start your apprenticeship. But don't worry The Guardian believes in Life Long Learning so you'll get a second chance and even a third.

    Ultimathule is the the most determined, principled poster on CiF, and she puts my occasional rambling cyncism to shame. Her determination to post her points of view enrages even our most generous moderators. Yet everyone here could learn a great deal from her razor sharp intellect and her ability to have mastered the English language to a level that puts many native English speakers to shame.

    See? We're just too stupid to recognise her genius.

  99. God BTH must be making vast amounts of money for Google with his newspaper searches on BB's thread, but he isn't actually adding anything to the debate.


    Sorry to hear about the far from happy experiences.


    "BiteTheHand is the most obvious example, a lickspittle with too much time on his hands and a direct line, via telescreen, to Matt O'Brien."

    Now, now, the snivelling toady has found an admirer, it could be interesting to sit back & watch the soap opera romance develop :)

    All Quiet on the Western Front" is a classic; though one must only watch the original & not the remake & the book is a damn good read; very similar to Das Boot in that it gives a different perspective onthe lives of, fairly ordinary, people caught up in extraordinary events & the disillusionment that can ensue.

  100. wots wrong with being a witch?

  101. scherfig, Montana: I apologise if I’ve betrayed trust, respect or confidentiality. That was never my intention. Maybe we should discuss this in a more private setting?

  102. Brusselsexpats said...


    I used to live in a small village near Maidstone but we did have two great country pubs

    I used to work on a farm near Sutton Vallance but I never did take Courage beer even though we grew Hops on the farm.

    The most widely grown Hop in Kent at the time was "Northern Brewer" Gives you a clue.

    It was before I married and I did like Kentish lasses and all those from the east end who were still down for the annual hop picking - I lived in a tin pig hut (cleaned out of course)

    It was where I got my passion for the sound of rain on a tin roof A continuing passion.

  103. Kiz, ain't nothin' wrong with bein' a witch.

  104. @ Motana

    Fucking hell, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves. Apparently, Ultimathule is the most reasonable, principled poster on Cif.Yeah right, & I'm the King of Fairie.

    She spouts unadulterated drivel on subjects she knows nothing of; as justification for some of her more absurd statements, & when confronted by pwople who might just know what they are talking about resorts to insults & wild accusations.

    Now, I realise that I might be wildly speculating myself here, but she seems to be something of a darling of the Cif editorial & moderating teams as she gets away with things that would result in other posters, who's views are less in tune witn the, apparent, views of Matt Seaton & co, banned.

    Then, when confronted with a clear case of her having used such tactics, she tries to play the victim. Christ on a crutch, I hate such schoolyard bullies who never got the chance to learn the lesson that you can't just treat others the way you like & get away with it.

  105. GP01 - C'mon, didn't you see BTH's gallant defence? He certainly changed my mind.

  106. yeah, ultima's an unpleasnt vicious nutter.

    Something more uplifting (and French) - Jean Jaques Goldman.

    juste apres

  107. I could do with uplifting, I thought annetan was the most reasonable, principled poster on CiF!

  108. For BTH read, fawning, sycophantic toady who probably thinks that by brown-nosing the RadFems he'll score enough brownie points that they'll forget that he was born with a dick & let him get his leg over.

    Who gives a flying fuck what he has to say? I mean really the man(?)'s a joke. He resembles nothing more than the snivelling little kid who hangs around with the favoured gang, agreeing to everything the leaders say, in the hope that everyone else will stop picking on him.

    what he doesn't realise is that the views espoused by Ultima & her ilk actually do far more harm to the genuine aims of feminism actually serve to alientate many who would otherwise be in full support.

    Personally, I'd take yourself, Kiz, Annetan & many others over her band of fanatics any day; as I'm sure many others would do, if they were given the chance to publish ATL.

  109. Should have added that there were many others, who were not named in the above list, with whom I find far more to agree with than to disagree.

  110. GP01 -- agree with you. What he doesn't seem to realise is that the radfems are never really going to let him into their club and his sycophantic posturing is a huge turn-off to anyone else. (probably to the radfems, too, tbh.)

  111. OOH Cookies! Thanks for the offer Kiz.

  112. Yes, please, Kiz! Got any jaffa cakes?

  113. only got plain chocolate digestives... I'm afraid.. and whiskey and spliff..

  114. @ Montana

    ( Just parking the following deleted by mod but still in my profile on CiF for now. It was an early post on BBs article considered too indelicate and removed within 5 minutes I thought it gone for good)

    I hope to get an additional memory stick ASAP as I 'm having difficulty with my hard disc. When I do I'll copy and remove the ramblings I/ve parked on your site and which litter the place and over extend the scrolling for folk.

    Cheers Many thanks enjoyed your site

    Temp posting:

    Don't blame the police for Sabina Akhtar's murder

    My comment 16 May 09, 1:52pm (about 11 hours ago)

    @ Bitethehand

    ".........................BeautifulBurnout .................. while bathing in the adulation heaped on her first article"

    Don't be a tit....less soul - it is customary in civilised places to applaud and encourage anyone trying out a new experience.

    So from me Jane Nichol Bell it's a GOLD STAR (or Two)......(*******+)x10+1 = Loud apprecciatve noise.

    I would offer you a wolf whistle but

    a) my false teeth might fall out and;

    b) I might be labled a misyogonist tosser and their camp followers from some of the less than fully baked alleged feminist commentators above (why is it when I sometimes type feminist commentators it sometimes comes out as tosser ess?) That nice Mr Bill Gates has got a lot to answer for.

    c) I don't want to wear my "kicking" ballet slippers on the weekends

    And for you Bitethhand its a civilized, fumbling in backt pocket (as it should be on a first meeting) to ensure that I have not come out dancing without my yellow and red cards, hello.

    I do not have to check the contents of my other pockets for I never venture out without a "blade" no matter what the law or rozzers might think.. I do look something of a knob in my tights it has to be said but then you can't have everything.

    Kind regards to you and enjoy your weekend - I shall mine ( making mental note to check the leather sharpening strop for when I get home).

    I know plenty of uncivilized places where some of your less than perfectly considered and executed comments above would have resulted in quick dash to A&E.

    I never learned first aid and have always regretted it and my carrying around band -aid/elastoplast is not always sufficient. But not to worry I am good at saying sorry when I am in the wrong.

  115. my mothers co op # was 046211,,when you learn it at 6 you never forget it,,for years i remembered the number but had forgotten its significance

  116. customerservice17 May, 2009 01:48

    I just noticed that I acn't read well (pleading visual impairmment

    hope you know its easy to increase text size,,first choice method,,hold down control,,scroll mouse wheel
    if that dont work we can try something else,,

  117. theextramile17 May, 2009 05:51

    or hold down comtrol and hit the plus+ minus-

  118. A few days ago, someone pointed out to me that some of my comments on this thread referred to conversations on a private blog.

    I’ve just remembered that I can remove my own posts, so that’s what I’ve done.

    Here are the parts of them which don’t refer to anything private, which can therefore still stand:

    “Regarding the Do Not Feed The Trolls issue:
    I don’t think putting any sort of politely worded notice up will make a blind bit of difference, to be honest. Anyone who’s wants to come in and stir up trouble won’t pay any attention.

    If we’re to keep an open door policy (which I think we should) it’s up to ALL of us to react to others in an appropriate way. What exactly that should be – completely ignoring; quacking at them; everyone making it clear that they’re not welcome; another option, some combination of the above – can only emerge through some kind of group discussion, because we need some sort of consensus on it for it to work. That’s my two pence worth.”

    “Hi Everybody: I’ve been spending a huge amount of time on CiF and The Untrusted recently, and most of it has been time well spent.

    I consider myself lucky to have found what I regard as a real on-line community (that’s The Untrusted, obviously), and lucky to have been accepted as a part of it.

    Now, however, real life is starting to intrude, mainly in the form of looming assignment deadlines on my college course. If I’d put as much energy into that, and typed as many words for that as I have here in the past few weeks, I suspect my assignments would all be over by now. I would, however, have missed something equally valuable.

    I’m going to take a sabbatical for a few weeks. I wish I could ration my time on here to a reasonable amount of time each day, but my experience suggests that that’s not going to work.

    So there will be no more andysays for a month or so, but don’t worry.

    Like Arnie says,


    I’ll be back...”

    Apologies again for speaking out of turn.