12 May 2009

Daily Chat 12/05/09

On this day in 1890, Yorkshire defeated Gloucestershire by eight wickets to begin the first official County Championship match.  Celebrating birthdays today:  Steve Winwood, Gabriel Byrne, Tony Hawk, and Catherine Tate.  In honour of Florence Nightingale's birth on this date in 1820, today is International Nurses' Day, so best wishes/big thanks to Annetan's daughter and any other nurses out there for doing a tough but important job.


    erm montana,,dear,,erm usually when a cricket team wins thats usually the end of the championship match rather than the beginning,,kinda like baseball

  2. 3p4 - I think that it was the first day of a 3 day match - so I maybe worded it a bit awkwardly. Yorks probably actually won on the 14th?

  3. 3for400declared12 May, 2009 05:17

    On this day in 1890, Yorkshire defeated Gloucestershire by eight wickets to win the first official County Championship.

    fixed innit?

  4. Morning all... hank pls check your in-box.


  5. OH MY GOD, now we’ve got an American telling us about cricket. Can’t wait to see what Swifty makes of that.

    He was funny yesterday, wasn’t he? I liked the stuff about bowling to his daughter. He seems to be able to keep a cool head under pressure, and I hope his daughter gets that too.

    Happy International Nurses Day to International Nurses everywhere – are they affiliated with International Rescue?

  6. Toast and Marmite12 May, 2009 08:18

    Morning all, can someone please confirm that I wasn't dreaming, and that Polly really was on Newsnight saying Gordon must go? Blimey, she's taken her first faltering steps back to reality. We must support her and help her to the light!

  7. Yes, Toast- very outspoken of her for a change and I like how she stressed NuLabs enriching of the rich. Bastards.
    Am I to believe Montana is a cricket fan? Probably the most boring game in the entire world but then I loathe team spirit. Sorry, chaps.

  8. Dan: Cricket, like Marmite, tends to be pretty much love it or loathe it. I’m in the former category, though I prefer to follow it on the radio, then I can focus in or let it go on in the background, depending on what’s going on.

    And, rather like here, the conversation’s about much more than the supposed subject at hand.

    I hope you’re not trying to be deliberately controversial.

    I finally checked out danpearcecomix.

    I liked what I saw, though it doesn’t match up with some of my experiences. When do we get to the bit where Angus (that’s his name, right?) sits at home for days on end, speaking to no-one and doing nothing because he just can’t summon the energy? Although I agree that wouldn’t make for much interest.

    Liked your joke about Ganesh/Ganosh. If you need any more curry related gags, tell the one about the two John Lennon fans who set up an Indian food delivery service called Instant Korma.

    I wasn’t quite sure if you’re saying you use the strip to help explain your behaviour or condition to your kids. My daughter is 13 now, and although she knows I have (or have had) depression, I’ve never really talked to her about what that means.

    I may show her your strip sometimes as part of my explanation of “Just because Daddy can be a miserable bastard sometimes, doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you”.

    Keep on doing the strip; keep well, too.

  9. Dan: forgot to put one of these:


    at the end of my third para.

  10. Steve Winwood is a legend, i never knew he could play geetar pretty good too but saw him the other day on youtube with clapton. Who saw him playing with slash doing Hey Joe at that big music awards tribute to Hendrix?

    Swifty's always good value, he is also a very formidable player when it comes to Buzzword Batsman: he captained 2 victorious Bidisha tours and took the winning wicket in the Bindel vs World XI thriller of 08, winning players' player of the season in the same year. Thats pedigree that is, right there.

  11. Thanks for good wishes to daughter Montana - have forwarded them to her by text (not sure what shift she is on!)

  12. Thanks, Andy, for your appreciative comments. I must admit that my cricket remark WAS intentionally provocative. And it provoked you so it was worth it.
    I understand your depression experiences only too well. I'm in one of my 'what's the point?' periods at the moment. Everything I do exhausts me. Being horribly broke and in a foreign country doesn't help either.
    Luckily my kids are grown up and live in Dalston- recently said to be the hippest part of London. It does have a certain multi cultural charm...
    Yeah, so the strip was intended to show the depressed they're not alone but it hasn't anywhere near plumbed the depths. I haven't even written that yet...
    Anyone else depressed?

  13. Oooooooh Gabriel Byrne - yum!

  14. "Luckily my kids are grown up and live in Dalston- recently said to be the hippest part of London. It does have a certain multi cultural charm..."

    Dont you mean a certain 'vibrant' charm?

  15. As someone who lives a few miles up the A10 from Dalston, in Tottenham (just as multi-culti, not so charming), I’m slightly sceptical about the idea of multi-cultural charm. All it really means is that you can buy fried chicken and drugs in about fifty different languages. How charming.

    I have to share with you all something I heard the other day though, in Tottenham High Street. This woman, older than me but not much I’d guess, was saying to her companion in her best Jamaican patois something along the lines of:

    “She couldn’t even speak (or she really needs to learn to speak?) proper English”.

    I could have kissed her (but I refrained, as it might have been considered an unwelcome sexual advance).

  16. "All it really means is that you can buy fried chicken and drugs in about fifty different languages. How charming."

    That made me chuckle Andy.

    Had to hit the hay early last night, been away since Friday. I see someone's been making an impact.

    Anyone hear from Astrofungalinfection ? Makes me crack up, describes himself as a troll, but he isn't....

  17. Fuck. Threw away my pithy retort. "Can't find server" indeed.

    Yeah, Jay, vibrant is good. Not sure about 'charm', on reflection. But very handy for crack houses. And fried chicken, as you point out, Andy.

  18. I've had a reply from Cif. One of the reasons I was banned was "relentless posting of off-topic remarks" as well as being rude to everyone. But if I promise to be a good boy they'll reconsider my case in a couple of weeks.
    How depressing it all is...

  19. Thank you Montana - As a Yorkie myself I always like to be reminded of our past victories.

    "Tha can always tell a Yorkshireman - but not much"

  20. I’ve consumed my share of fried chicken and drugs over the years, but you can hardly build a whole culture on them, can you?

    Maybe we’ve identified a gap in the market – a combination fried chicken shop cum crack house.

    Actually, I suspect someone’s got there already.

  21. Toast and Marmite12 May, 2009 10:46

    God I love fried chicken. I followed an authentic 'southern fried' recipe once, (sigh) why does something so nice have to be so bad for you? (Mucnhes on his dry Swiss crisp roll and ponders what bit of fruit is going to be lunch.)

  22. Toast and Marmite12 May, 2009 10:48

    andysays, not sure if it' still there, but there used to be a brothel in Bedford above a KFC. I always imagined people working up an appetite upstairs, then popping downstairs to eat.

  23. dan, would you say that posting on a forum, especially one like Cif, is probably on the whole beneficial or detrimental to the average person suffering from depression?

    Wouldn't it be more advisable to try to maintain a more centred emotional course (avoiding as much potentially annoying stimulus as possible), or don't external stimuli really come into it?

  24. T&M: Next time I’m in Bedford (whenever THAT is) I’ll ask around.

    Enjoy your lunch – bit early to be thinking about it now though, isn’t it?

    I’m off to the allotment now to plant potatoes and sow carrots (Mm, more food).

    Catch up with you all later.

  25. Would suffering depression make people lose their rag on a forum?

  26. And do depressives tend to blame others for their feeling bad, crying, losing sleep, etc?

  27. What's the point of being depressed?

    (Don't answer that, it's a trap.)

  28. Toast and Marmite12 May, 2009 11:08

    Well mealtimes are to be looked forward to, but I'm trying to lose weight at the moment, and fruit and yoghurt just doesn't make me salivate the way a thick cut chicken sarnie on white bread does.

    Just planted my own veg, carrots, potatoes and various brassicas. First time I've tried growing stuff from seeds, so happy to pick up tips!

  29. why are you depressed billp?

  30. I am a councilor, how can i help you?

  31. billp - I have clinical depression, and tend to blame the chemical imbalance in my brain. External stimuli don't count for much, except that when I'm faced by some obnoxious, yammering cunt I tend to go for a lie down rather than lose my rag.

  32. fight, fight, fight, fight

  33. No, every time I begin to feel in any way sorry for myself, I snap myself out of it by reminding myself how weak and selfish a stance that is.

    I don't know if those kinds of feelings have anything to do with depression, however. I've been told they haven't.

    So, although I couldn't actually tell you what being depressed entails, I don't think I am now, or ever have been. It is my BELIEF that a person has to be first controlled by emotion, in order to ever be depressed.

  34. damagedoor, how do you know there is a chemical imbalance in your brain? I mean, we can actually behold your lack of control over your emotions, but what evidence have you for this supposed "chemical imbalance"?

  35. It was the KFC on Tavistick Street. Or Unlucky Fried Kitten as we called it. (Lived in Bedford for 10 years.)

  36. Toast and Marmite12 May, 2009 11:28

    It wasn't a discrete place either if I re-call. A massive sign with the name. (Genevieve's?) Plus the lap-dancing bar above the taxi office. (Did my training at Chicksands, so those places quite well known amongst squaddies!)

  37. Have a tiny town garden and tend to plant veg among the flowers. Garden measures 4m x 3m (max width) I have digwoods a rambling rose and a clematis that grows through three minaret fruit trees (apple pear and plum)Also grow sweet peas and borage. Also have herbs (lovage{maggi plant] sweet cecily sage rosemary thyme parsley mint and lemon balm {which makes a very soothing tea]).

    Going to make some lemon balm tea now - very calming!

    I shall soon be planting runner beans (full size and dwarf, mange tout peas french beans and tomatoes).

    Cramming all that into small space actually makes it look bigger! Oh and it has high walls is south facing and is a real suntrap.

    It was a barren concrete yard when I moved here, its been fun planning and planting it!

  38. talkingaboutdepression12 May, 2009 11:38

    I am suffering from depression, long time; nothing to be ashamed of.
    When I look at my childhood photos I can see the sadness and despair in my little eyes; all to do with wars, deportations, displacements and the way my adopted country is treating my people.

    No one can help a depressed person but themselves... so don't you listen or spend your money on a councilor. Counseling won't work. Isn’t it mad to pay someone at least £60 per hour just to hear you crying, hours after hours after hours? Just like drugs; it only works artificially while you are taking them.
    Taking drugs makes me even more depressed!

  39. We have a place called the Spicey Rat which is regular haunt of mine after closing time. I think BTH is doing a bit of fishing bless 'im.


  40. This is very interesting. Much food for thought here.
    On reflection, I would say the experience of refuting the opinions of some deluded journo only to be deleted is frustrating and makes me very angry, and yes, lose my rag.
    No, I don't blame anyone else for my depression although my wife often feels to blame. She is in a difficult position.
    Actually, she sometimes accuses me of retreating into depression because it's a safe, familiar place. I think she has a point.
    I am currently on a low dose of these ssri (seritonin replacement) drugs derived from Prozac (which was horrible), designed to cope with panic attacks.
    It is reckoned that much depression is caused by a high incidence of REM sleep and certainly I went through a period of terrifying, vivid dreams which I woke from feeling exhausted. My doctor prescribed my drugs (paroxetina- Italian name) specifically for this condition. I still dream but normally and I sleep well.
    I think, on reflection, and thanks to your very perceptive remarks, Bill, that I won't go back to Cif. After all I can always do my ranting in my comics...

  41. It would seem like the right thing to do, dan. I expect doing the comics is therapeutic. I hope it is.

    I asked those questions because the character, Angus, appears to get frustrated or wound up a lot by little things. We all might, but we don't all suffer what Angus suffers, possibly as a result.

    Basically, deep down, we all know that participation on Cif is masochistic, to one degree or another. I believe the worst part is that we know we're being played.

  42. **I believe the worst part is that we know we're being played**

    Totally agree with the above line. CIF is becoming a filthy place thanks to their pathetic & *anker editors; just HarrysfookingPlace.did anyone see this comment from Tony Greenstein on cif?

    11 May 09, 2:11am (about 20 hours ago)

    Well no doubt the new improved talk policy washes whiter than white, but there is a purpose behind it and Georgina is being disingenuous if she pretends otherwise.

    Essentially the Guardian has seen the way the wind is blowing. The print media has a finite life, papers are going under as circulations go down across the board. CIF, which pays nothing back at the moment, is part of the venture which eventually will see newspapers as existing only on the Internet.

    That is the reason why CIF is being heavily ‘moderated’ i.e. censored. Why ‘offensive’ comments are banned, because just like the Guardian itself is written by people who generally are in the New Labour spectrum, hence the hypocrisy over the fact that the pigs have got caught out stuffing themselves (MPs not journalists!) so the Internet version of which CIF is the prototype must also be seen to reflect the Guardian’s traditional caution.

    I said above that this is not a community, whatever that is (because communities hide class relations) but a relationship of those with power to censor and those who if they step out of line will be censored, It is of course right and proper that the capitalist media reflect normative social relations but it should be honestly described not dressed up in the Orwellian washes-whiter-than-white rhetoric.

    Because if it was a community then Matthew Seaton would be on his bike as, and I’m not trying to be unkind, he is not up to making political judgments that offend the powers that be at the Guardian, hence his adoption of Harry’s Place David Toube.

    Tony Greenstein

  43. Well, I wasn't - of course - referring to Billp in my last comment. But he was asking about forums, so I was just giving an example of something aggravating that might be encountered...

    Bill - the chemical side of things. I think depression affects everyone in different ways, with different causal factors playing a part. For me, it's more physical than mental (although the two influence each other to an extent). When I'm down, I have no energy or enthusiasm for anything, and even small tasks seem mountainous. I move slowly. I slump. I get very tired. I can't concentrate, or be bothered to try. Imagine being pleasantly half-asleep, and somebody jabs you in the ribs every time you drop off. Everything feels like that.

    It's not a reaction to 'bad stuff', as my life is generally great.

  44. Can it be a reaction to "bad (wrong) thought", though? It's obviously possible to "have everything" and still be "dissatisfied". I always imagine that the guy who wrote Ecclesiastes was "depressed", until he wised-up at the end.

    Again, I don't know what depression entails, and on another Cif spin-off site (Pikey's), which became a bit clubby like this one, funnily enough, I got into a bit of hot water when trying to find out. I have this philosophy that the human organism is perfect, and that any unexplained brokenness (an example of explained being falling off a ladder) is the result of wrong thinking. That is, that the individual has accepted some illness or condition or other, either consciously or unconsciously.

    I've never had a good reception on that score, though. On Cif or anywhere else. Sick people don't like their illnesses being described as illusory. However, I haven't been ill since I decided that illness doesn't exist. A long time ago.

  45. I used to really dislike it when people like JeremyHP & Clapthefooker used to ask people "have you taken you pills lately"; real cowards & Islamophobe-racist-bastards. I know Claptheshit keeps resurfacing with these stupid remarks on CIF all the time, and it gives me a tremendous pleasure reporting him to the mods as "previously banned fooker".

    Does anyone know what moniker JHPSauce-the-FOOKER is using these days?

  46. I think it's important to understand that THERE IS NO (Earthly) POINT. For any of us. We're born, we struggle, we die. It's just not necessary to get upset about that, or try to pretend it's not true.

  47. Being Superman, I'd like to complain about certain people bogarting the phonebooth.

  48. That was a really useful and interesting discussion- thanks to all.
    And yes, I suppose doing comics is theraputic. I certainly don't do it for the money (hollow laugh)...

  49. Just a heartfelt thanks to billp, from Dan's wife. From where I'm sitting, that sodding CIF is the primrose path to obsession and madness.
    How tragic that it comes as a surprise to otherwise intelligent people to find that nanny ALWAYS knows best, and that in the UK, nannies lurk beneath the most innocuous of stones. As far as newspapers go, bad news is plainly good news, but it has to be THEIR bad news, its dissemination controlled by the newspaper.
    Anyway, thank you for possibly unclamping Dan from his Kulturpessimismus-fix

  50. humanist-hermit12 May, 2009 14:23

    what in sweet merry hell is the phonebooth? sounds rubbish.

    speaking of rubbish, I can't decide whether that thread about CiF monikers is or not.

  51. congrats andy! Suggested article actually been produced.

  52. Having problems getting a comment on the Guard so I thought I might try it here (tests if there is something wrong with my connection or if I've been put out to dry)

    CIF's - Below is the BBC list of those MP's who voted against reform of the second home allowance.

    If Your MP is below you may wish to excercise your democratic right to email him/her and let him/her know your views and voting intentions.

    We should note robbo100's comment above to the effect that the more devious of the crooks may have abstained the vote whilst still plundering the public purse.

    Page last updated at 16:22 GMT, Friday, 4 July 2008 17:22 UK
    E-mail this to a friend Printable version
    MPs who rejected expenses reform
    The MPs who voted in favour of keeping the additional costs allowance for second homes, worth up to £24,000 a year, were:





    Nick Ainger (Carmarthen West & Pembrokeshire South)

    Graham Allen (Nottingham North)

    David Anderson (Blaydon)

    Janet Anderson (Rossendale & Darwen)

    Ian Austin (Dudley North)

    Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West)

    Gordon Banks (Ochil & Perthshire South)

    Kevin Barron (Rother Valley)

    Margaret Beckett (Derby South)

    Clive Betts (Sheffield Attercliffe)

    Liz Blackman (Erewash)

    Roberta Blackman-Woods (Durham, City of)

    Bob Blizzard (Waveney)

    David Borrow (Ribble South (South Ribble))

    Nick Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East & Wallsend)

    Richard Burden (Birmingham Northfield)

    Colin Burgon (Elmet)

    Andy Burnham (Leigh)

    Stephen Byers (Tyneside North)

    Alan Campbell (Tynemouth)

    Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley)

    Ben Chapman (Wirral South)

    David Chaytor (Bury North)

    Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill)

    David Clelland (Tyne Bridge)

    Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley)

    Ann Coffey (Stockport)

    Harry Cohen (Leyton & Wanstead)

    Michael Connarty (Linlithgow & Falkirk East)

    Rosie Cooper (Lancashire West)

    Ann Cryer (Keighley)

    John Cummings (Easington)

    Jim Cunningham (Coventry South)

    Tony Cunningham (Workington)

    Wayne David (Caerphilly)

    Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West)

    Janet Dean (Burton)

    Frank Dobson (Holborn & St Pancras)

    Brian Donohoe (Ayrshire Central)

    Jim Dowd (Lewisham West)

    Angela Eagle (Wallasey)

    Maria Eagle (Liverpool Garston)

    Jeff Ennis (Barnsley East & Mexborough)

    Bill Etherington (Sunderland North)

    Caroline Flint (Don Valley)

    Paul Flynn (Newport West)

    Michael Foster (Worcester)

    Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings & Rye)

    Mike Gapes (Ilford South)

    Dr Ian Gibson (Norwich North)

    Linda Gilroy (Plymouth Sutton)

    Nia Griffith (Llanelli)

    Andrew Gwynne (Denton & Reddish)

    Mike Hall (Weaver Vale)

    David Hamilton (Midlothian)

    Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

    Stephen Hesford (Wirral West)

    Sharon Hodgson (Gateshead East & Washington West)

    Jimmy Hood (Lanark & Hamilton East)

    George Howarth (Knowsley North & Sefton East)

    Beverley Hughes (Stretford & Urmston)

    Joan Humble (Blackpool North & Fleetwood)

    Dr Brian Iddon (Bolton South East)

    Eric Illsley (Barnsley Central)

    Adam Ingram (East Kilbride, Strathaven & Lesmahagow)

    Brian Jenkins (Tamworth)

    Diana Johnson (Hull North)

    Kevan Jones (Durham North)

    Martyn Jones (Clwyd South)

    Tessa Jowell (Dulwich & West Norwood)

    Eric Joyce (Falkirk)

    Alan Keen (Feltham & Heston)

    David Kidney (Stafford)

    Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool Walton)

    Bob Laxton (Derby North)

    Tom Levitt (High Peak)

    Ivan Lewis (Bury South)

    Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central)

    Ian Lucas (Wrexham)

    Tommy McAvoy (Rutherglen & Hamilton West)

    Stephen McCabe (Birmingham Hall Green)

    Christine McCafferty (Calder Valley)

    Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East)

    Sarah McCarthy-Fry (Portsmouth North)

    Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham & Morden)

    James McGovern (Dundee West)

    Anne McGuire (Stirling)

    Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes)

    Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth & Kirkintilloch East)

    Tony McNulty (Harrow East)

    Denis MacShane (Rotherham)

    Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham Perry Barr)

    Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West)

    Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South)

    Alan Meale (Mansfield)

    Gillian Merron (Lincoln)

    Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port & Neston)

    Madeleine Moon (Bridgend)

    Jessica Morden (Newport East)

    Elliot Morley (Scunthorpe)

    George Mudie (Leeds East)

    Denis Murphy (Wansbeck)

    Paul Murphy (Torfaen)

    Mike O'Brien (Warwickshire North)

    Eddie O'Hara (Knowsley South)

    Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock)

    James Plaskitt (Warwick & Leamington)

    Bridget Prentice (Lewisham East)

    Gordon Prentice (Pendle)

    Gwyn Prosser (Dover)

    Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton North East)

    Nick Raynsford (Greenwich & Woolwich)

    John Robertson (Glasgow North West)

    Terry Rooney (Bradford North)

    Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd)

    Christine Russell (Chester, City of)

    Alison Seabeck (Plymouth Devonport)

    Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield)

    Jimmy Sheridan (Paisley & Renfrewshire North)

    Angela C Smith (Sheffield Hillsborough)

    Angela E Smith (Basildon)

    Jacqui Smith (Redditch)

    Anne Snelgrove (Swindon South)

    John Spellar (Warley)

    Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes South West)

    Gavin Strang (Edinburgh East)

    Gisela Stuart (Birmingham Edgbaston)

    Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South)

    Mark Tami (Alyn & Deeside)

    Gareth Thomas (Harrow West)

    Emily Thornberry (Islington South & Finsbury)

    Don Touhig (Islwyn)

    Derek Twigg (Halton)

    Kitty Ussher (Burnley)

    Keith Vaz (Leicester East)

    Lynda Waltho (Stourbridge)

    Claire Ward (Watford)

    Tom Watson (West Bromwich East)

    Dave Watts (St Helens North)

    Phil Wilson (Sedgefield)

    Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central)

    Shaun Woodward (St Helens South)

    Phil Woolas (Oldham East & Saddleworth)

    David Wright (Telford)

    Iain Wright (Hartlepool)

    Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne & Sheppey)

    Return to the top


    David Amess (Southend West)

    James Arbuthnot (Hampshire North East)

    Henry Bellingham (Norfolk North West)

    Brian Binley (Northampton South)

    Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth West)

    Christopher Chope (Christchurch), John Greenway (Ryedale)

    Gerald Howarth (Aldershot)

    Bernard Jenkin (Essex North)

    Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove)

    Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest)

    Anne McIntosh (Vale of York)

    Andrew Mackay (Bracknell)

    Andrew Rosindell (Romford)

    Hugo Swire (Devon East)

    Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth & Horncastle)

    Angela Watkinson (Upminster)

    Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone & The Weald)

    David Wilshire (Spelthorne)

    Lady Ann Winterton (Congleton)

    Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

    Return to the top


    Dai Davies (Blaenau Gwent)

    Robert Wareing (Liverpool West Derby).

    Return to the top

  53. Jay, anyone: check the phone booth.

  54. I'm put out to dry then perhaps its a new way of giving an early warning ( I tried seven times to post it on the Guard) - Regards all. Sorry to take the space on this thread if you've already read it on the BEEB.

  55. Jay -
    Do you think if I posted the following to Bluejewell(Mike Hunt)

    'Bet you are glad your first name isn't Berkeshire'

    That I would get banned?

    Nah don't worry! - its not even the way I tell them :-D

  56. deano30 - a short comment and a link to the list would be preferable and may well be posted on Cif without problems.

  57. Annetna - there arent many comments left which WONT get deleted these days - that seems the latest game on cif, how can i express my disgust without getting deleted within miinutes...

  58. Its a nice thread though! Interesting!

    and it makes me feel very unimaginative and boring!

  59. which thread you on annetan?


    The phone is ringing and someone needs to answer it.

  61. humanist-hermit12 May, 2009 16:03

    the name thread finally motivated me to change mine.

    i am now sartrecastic.

  62. @ anon

    Thanks for advice. I don't think it's the length I can't get anything to post on any thread at the min. The list while sadly long is still less than the 5000 word count.

    robbo100 already posted the link as you suggest - I just wanted any of the "guilty" who might be reading the comments, to not only feel the heat but also to make them squirm. Seeing their own name on threads wherever they look might make them more sensitive to the idea of constituency focussed public anger.

    Real world - fact is a sackful of angry emails to individual MP's from constituents would probably do more good for toilet paper/wipes sales that all the comment in the world on CIF. Sadly most CiF's enjoy a rant more than a real face to face angry exchange with those who let them down.

    Regards. Deano

    I think the new politics has to make the bastards feel uncomfortable (at the very least) whenever possible. I take a very simple view that it can do no harm inculcating a feeling of "no hiding place" amongst some MP's

  63. My MP was on the list and thats Greenwich, about 15 minutes from central London and probably about 30 mins to the Commons. I have sent him a most charming email.

  64. @ h-h

    satrecastic is brill!

  65. sartrecastic12 May, 2009 16:07

    The thing is - and I don't know if it's just my MP or what - when I emailed Patricia Hewitt she wrote me a letter back.

    Which isn't helpful if you actually want an exchange with them. Unless I emailed her again, and she wrote me a letter back, but that's just inefficient and silly.

  66. sartrecastic12 May, 2009 16:08


    thanks n_n

  67. It would help if I could spell sartrecastic!

  68. @ sartrecastic

    Prob all sorts of reasons for snail reply to email - replies usually drafted by secretary ( could be on piece work rates? I jest.

    MP's do like performance indicators so anything that can be tallied up and is good for the image is usually favoured - a nice letter with the House of Commons logo at the top in green and hand signed is all seen as good publicity material - but I'm sure you know that already.

    Suppose you could look on the bright side if you email again - it might be counted as two or more seperate complaints!

    Regards. Must take the dogs for a leg stretch

  69. Jay -
    Jon Wilde What's in a name?

  70. Sorry no - BB's post is on Polly's thread!

    She's got 580 recommends now!

  71. Evening campers!

    Great thread on names inspired by andy - excellent stuff.

    I am just catching up but managed to notice your post here anne - only 580 people think Gordon should go? Nowhere near enough!! :D

  72. BB: Evening to you too.

    If you think that thread is fun now, check the Phone Booth.

    See ya!

  73. Dan - depression is a nasty, black slithering thing. I didn't get depressed until I was well into my 40s and was always the sort of person that just couldn't understand why other people didn't just snap out of it and stop being so miserable. Now I get it - literally and figuratively.

  74. sartrecastic12 May, 2009 18:01


    ahhh yes, I could do that, but the letter was actually so typical and politician-y and full of spin and basically a long reeling defence of Gordon that I couldn't be bothered. It's in the bin now anyway.


    depression runs in our family. :(

  75. My MP is a Tory *spit* and I have probably written to him a dozen times over the years. And then he goes and annoys me by writing an excellent, thoughtful, well-researched letter back to me, agreeing with me most of the time.

    The bastard.


  76. Dear BB, yes it is. A dear friend of mine introduced me to Buddhist chanting which is a very effective and easy way to meditate. While you chant you focus on positive things- send out good vibes to loved ones- do some good drawing etc and it really works. He was very keen that I learn the various prayers and took the whole thing very seriously- set up a little shrine and stuff but I can't be doing with all that and i don't think it's necessary anyway.
    Now I do yoga daily which is fantastic and very calming apart from being a great exercise routine- I have stomach definition for the first time ever!
    I still get depressed but it's bearable and doesn't go too deep (thanks to the pills) and I know it won't last long...

    I do sympathise with you with regard to your MP- how INFURIATING!

  77. dan, is it wrong to refuse any kind of pills for depression? I am totally against pills for depression. The side effects can be devastating for some.

  78. Ahahah! I'm a Buddhist of the chanting variety too. And it does help. But I find it hard to do sometimes - I have been a practising Buddhist for 16 years now, but it ebbs and flows. As for the setting up of the shrine bit, etc, that is a very personal thing and only a choice you can make.

    As for pills for depression, I think they serve a purpose as an immediate way of dealing with the symptoms, but they do nothing to address the underlying problem. But sometimes one can get so down and desperate that you need an emergency solution for a few months.

    Good to hear you have a lot of "resources" available to you, though :)

  79. thanks for that BeautifulB.

  80. @ BB

    610 well deserved agreements over on Polly's Pickle when I last looked!

    My late in the day effort on that thread was removed within 30 mins of posting. I re-posted the classy finger from GreenCustardFlinger viz


    10 May 09, 2:14pm (13 minutes ago)

    ....................| />~<|..................
    ............| ~ ~ ~ ~ |`...).........
    ................|.(( +==)) .|..............

    And added an enquiry for Polly to the effect that she might perchance think the uber creep should be given the same message as Brown.

    It may have something to do with why I may have been hung out to dry today since I had in fact also reposted it on the Mandy piece on Sun after the original was removed. My reposting didn't last long then either.

    I have no idea who actually created the emot but I noted that the original poster was a one time CiF poster with the name GreenCustardFlinger.

    Since she/he obviously held the uber creep in low esteem I had to wonder if it might have been the work of that delightful young woman who actually flung green custard over the creep earlier this year.

    I hope it was, or least was an homage to her. It would be privildge to have been put in the cooler for advancing her honourable memory.

  81. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6AnZLm2Zvg

    Complete Tony Blair.

  82. All - I have had a SHIT DAY (actually major parts of the past week) and am planning to get seriously pissed now. Just warning you that I may make some ill-judged posts.

    Deano - thanks for the list. Predictably, my (Lab) MP is on it. I'd e-mail him, but I've already e-mailed him a few months ago with a copy-and-paste of his voting record from theyworkforyou.com and the heading "here's why I won't be voting for you in the next election". I got a nice letter back saying, Theyworkforyou is a nice web site. Unfortunately they don't always get everything right. For your information, I did not vote for the Iraq war. Of course, the site had listed him as 'moderately' supporting the war, which probably means that he abstained from the original vote but voted for all the funding.

    His seat is marginal anyway, so I don't expect him to survive the next election. We'll probably get an effing Tory.

    On the subject of depression: been there, had that from about age 3 or 4 but it gradually wore off throughout my 20s and now I can honestly say that now I'm very happy (except when FUCKING JOBSWORTH TWATS piss me off at work). Probably mine was situational but I do sympathise. Also had a boyfriend who had severe clinical depression and that was very very scary.

  83. I've found that there is great deal to be said for the latest ideas that regular excercise can help reduce depression. Problem is finding time for it for many people.

    What helped put an end to prozac for me was loosing my job and having so much more time to walk my dogs.

    Perhaps the biggest danger for many is the slip sliding descent into alcho problems that can happen all too easily when depression is stalking one.

    Wooh there Deano I sense a hobby horse galloping centre stage - silly old me would have rescue dogs available on the NHS if I could.

  84. Deano - completely agree on both counts. It's hard to sink into yourself when your dog is being completely daft - you have to laugh. And the exercise helps too.

    The ex-bf had a bad drinking problem, which of course exacerbates depression, but if you ask me the answer to the chicken-and-egg question is that the depression comes first. At least in his case.

  85. Mmm, tricky one. I think you have to find the pill that suits you and there are all sorts. I don't like taking pills but in my case the alternative is worse. Coming off them can be tricky and there are side effects...

  86. Deano - yeah I saw the finger post you did again yesterday :D I wonder if it is the Phantom Custard Flinger of Old London Town? (with apologies to The Two Ronnies)

    I would love a dog but we are out of the house most of the day and I couldn't bear to leave it on its own. They are amazingly therapeutic though.

    Thaum - I've on the vodka and coke tonight! Cheers! *clink*

    I had a shitty day of driving 3hrs30 each way for a hopeless case in front of a twat of a judge who I could have slapped he was so smug. Ah well. I am sure his mum loves him. :)

  87. jay

    heard him wibbling on saying the same thing on R4 this morning. Utter Tony, as you say.

  88. Cheers BB - considered going straight on brandy or whiskey but opted for the safer standby of wine.

    And since I can't be arsed cooking have opted for the very unusual step of eating monkey nuts for dinner on the sofa as I type. Which led to my comment of two secs ago to the dog:

    Stop drooling at me.

    She's now trying on the 'but look how nicely I sit and how cute I am' tactic. It won't work. No-one gets my nuts.

  89. Why no dustbin so I can edit/remove my comments?

  90. LOL! Does she like nuts then? The funniest thing we used to give our dog to eat when we were kids was marshmallow. He loved them, but it was cruel because we just used to laugh at him trying to chew something that, to all intents and purposes for a dog's jaw, wasn't there.

    "Nyang Nyang Nyang Nyang Nyang" for about two minutes :D

  91. Now I understand - you only seem to get an edit own post facility (dustbin by the date/time stamp) if you sign in on a Gmail account - you learn somethink every day or so!

  92. That's odd deano - I've got my dustbin. Are you signed in properly?

  93. BB - she does indeed. Although she's not as talented with the monkey nuts as the last dog, who could go *crunch crunch* with a nut, the nut would be down her throat, and the shell neatly split into two even halves with the skin carefully deposited beside them.

    This one makes a mess. But gets her nut in the end.

  94. This is my favourite cure for depression, btw. Something about this song/vid makes it impossible to feel down!


  95. Gardening & walking helps me a lot.

  96. BB - hmm - maybe it's partly cos I'm only listening through built-in speakers at the mo, but that doesn't have the same effect on me.

    When I'm feeing down I like to do something like read Thomas Hardy or listen to Leonard Cohen. I suppose it's a combination of "someone out there understands me" and "well, my life's not quite THAT shite".

    And that's one of the things that's great - the variety of things out there, and what doesn't work for one person works for another...

  97. One man's meat as they say. :)

  98. There is a certain man's meat that I'm very fond of at the moment.... :-)

  99. Hi again everybody.

    This thread has really becoming interesting since I went out earlier.

    Sympathies to my fellow depression sufferers; I would never have guessed there were so many of you, to be honest.

    Various people have mentioned various things that help them; I’m in favour of trying anything that may make a difference.

    I’ve been on medication for about twelve years now. The only times things have got bad (and they got REALLY bad) in that time have been twice when I tried to come off.

    I’ve also been lucky enough to have fairly long-term therapy on the NHS, which eventually made a real positive difference.

    The other thing I find helps is having a supportive partner. For most of that twelve years I was on my own, and often felt TOTALLY alone. When you’re really low, the idea that someone would want to share anything with you is difficult to believe.

    But the past couple of years I’ve been with someone (she has mental elf issues too), and we’re able to help each other through the bad times.

    Picking up on a theme that others have touched on, I’d like to hear everyone’s suggestions for songs about depression, which aren’t actually depressing.

    I’ll get the ball rolling, shall I?

    “Black Dog” by Led Zeppelin

    Even if it’s not actually about depression, the title makes it sound like it should be. Any others?

  100. 7 billion on smart meters? 7 billion? So the leccy company can see EXACTLY when you are making a cuppa. 7 BILLION? Couldnt we get a load of nuclear submarines and hospitals for that? 7 billion?

  101. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8042716.stm

  102. OK, andysays, have just plugged proper speakers in and am about to play Black Dog because it's never struck me that way! Verdict shortly....

  103. dierobdie

    It'll be so they can tax us for something else. mark my words. :)

  104. andysays

    I would have thought Since I've Been Loving You would be more depression-oriented than Black Dog, personally. Trying to think of some more here.

  105. Hmm - just seems to be about lust to me. Have never understood exactly what 'black dog' means. Always assumed it had something to do with the black country - maybe that's because of 'black country woman'.

    'Course, there's always the "spent my money, took my car" bit but it all seems a bit teenage imagining to me. (And I love Led Zep.)

    Spent a lot of time in my ultra-depressed teenage years listening to Bowie - Diamond Dogs, Station to Station, Scary Monsters, even ... yes ... Low. (I'd now like to point out that these albums were actually released long before I was a teenager.)

    Listened to Cohen a lot during break-up with long-time ex - Everybody Knows seemed to describe things perfectly.

  106. 'black dog' was what Churchill called his bouts of depression.

  107. BB - Ohhhh, Since I've Been Loving You is about my fave LZ song. Now I'm going to play that!

    On the other side of the coin, when I'm happy, I like to play Roxy's 'More Than This'. For instance, whenever I buy a new car or house, I like that to be the first song played. Which is odd, 'cos it's in a ... er, help music anoraks ... minor key or something. Has a wistful tone, anyway, but ultimately cheering. As if something good is around the corner.

  108. Enjoy this one everyone!


  109. @ andy

    The "Black Dog" sitting on his shoulder was how Churchill used to describe his little problems with depression if I remember correctly.

    I'm somewhat pissed off having just spent ages typing in a piece about the easily overcome problems of keeping a dog if your working like BB. There are many positives in helping with depression and what people feel more comfortable talking about ie stress-

    and then sod me I caught the delete button by mistake.

    Sod it - back to the board

  110. See anon got there first

  111. Said I bin cry-yay-in
    Wo my tears they fell like rain

    Thanks BB!

  112. thaumaturge: I think you’ve just made a very rude comment, young lady, and you need to go and wash your mouth out straight away.

    Sorry, I was probably unclear. The lyrics of the song “Black Dog” are not about depression; the title shouts it out to me (maybe just me).

    Apparently Winston Churchill referred to his condition as his black dog (see anon AND deano got there first!), and I believe the expression is quite widespread.

    One qualification though: much as I have a soft spot for the Manic Street Preachers, I still maintain I got my tattoo before they recorded “Black Dog on my Shoulder”.

    Hi deano (and anon) not spoken here before. Loved your emoticon (your copying of someone else's anyway) the other day.

  113. best do it in bits -

    @ BB sorted the dustbin problem - If I sign in via Gmail I get a red deano30 and a self edit facility (the dustbin by the date time stamp)

    If I sign in via name/url route I don't get the dustbin facility and I appear as grey deano30!

    We who are idle and retired learneth somethink every day - if only it was to not hit the delete buttton in error

  114. I'm about to lose, lose, lose my worried mind....

    OK, I'll stop now! Song over. :-(

    Deano - Have adopted both my dogs as (roughly) one-year-olds so haven't had to deal with puppy stage (chewing, yes, in first case) and have been able to combine with work. The second (current) dog had terrible abandonment issues, but luckily at the time I was working from home. It wouldn't have been possible otherwise, but she is now very much over the clingy bit to the point where, when I get home, she can hardly be arsed to get off the bed to greet me.

  115. deano (and dan too I think): I’ve now got into the habit of typing my stuff into a word doc, then copying and pasting. That way if your post fucks up, you can try again.

    I've noticed the absence of dustbins too, but haven't taken the trouble to sort that yet.

    I rthink it's cause my google ID is andy, not andy says, so when I use the Name/URL thing, I lose that option.

  116. thaum - I love that song too

    But the ultimate angst song for me is I Know It's Over by the Smiths. (Well, pretty much 80% of the Smiths really)


  117. Yeah, when I'm andy I have a dustbin, when I change to andysays, I lose it.

    Maybe I'll work that out tomorrow. I can live with not being able to delete me stuff, after recent experiences on CiF.

    Speaking of which, and not wishing to blow my own trumpet, someone's come up with rather an interesting idea for a thread about CiFers' IDs. It's called "What's in a Name?" and it's become surprisingly popular. So much so, that i reckon some people have made up new IDs just to post on it.

  118. Hi Andy -Good to meet you here. I made the following comment up above somewhere

    "I have no idea who actually created the emot but I noted that the original poster was a one time CiF poster with the name GreenCustardFlinger.

    Since she/he obviously held the uber creep in low esteem I had to wonder if it might have been the work of that delightful young woman who actually flung green custard over the creep earlier this year.

    I hope it was, or least was an homage to her. It would be privilege to have been put in the cooler for advancing her honourable memory."

  119. I think my son would really benefit from having a dog about the place. Dogs and boys kind of go together really. Perhaps we should think of adopting one.

  120. andysays - many apologies, but I'm not quite sure which bit you thought was rude!

    Nice to be informed on the origin of the phrase. It had always been a bit of a mystery to me.

    Possibly best break-up song ever: Richard Thompson's "When the Spell is Broken".

    Love letters
    You wrote
    Get pushed back down your throat
    And leave you choking
    When the spell is broken

  121. Ah, found youtube of When the Spell...


  122. yes pets are great for that!

    My cat can be as funny as fuck! They are also hutzpah (is that how you spell it?) on four paws!

    If I feel down she pops up on the arm of the chair and strokes my face with her paw!

  123. thaumaturge: it was the bit about your man's "meat"

  124. RT has a very Tudor face. D'you think it's true that Henry VIII wrote 'Greensleeves', and is Richard T his heir?

    BB - dogs are great. You know you need one. Rescue an older dog (ie non-puppy).

  125. "Just a heartfelt thanks to billp, from Dan's wife. From where I'm sitting, that sodding CIF is the primrose path to obsession and madness."

    You're welcome, Miranda. I hope it helps. I agree with you, in the case of most people. Some, I think, can handle it, but they are invariably called "unfeeling" and other things. Perhaps they are unfeeling.

    Cif is doubly (triply?) dangerous, as it goes out of its way to inflame, through content and style of articles, before stifling reaction. It's like throwing pepper at people and then making them sneeze quietly. Something at the back of the head invariably gives.

    I "protected" myself by believing absolutely zero I read or hear about in the media, at face value, and by questioning Cif itself. Perhaps, I've already traversed the primrose path. Whatever the case, I'm not going back there either.

    To get back to the depression and other illnesses thing, I think it's important, at least, never to own a disease for yourself (no talking about "my depression", "my pills", etc., along with no referring to "my doctor".)

    I also think people would do well to just verbally deny the existence of such things (for THEMSELVES), EVEN while continuing to do things that would contradict that denial (like taking medications, visiting therapists, suffering symptoms, etc.) That is, in the case of depression:

    1. To stop talking about it where posible.

    2. To stop admitting to suffering from it.

    3. To actively deny suffering from it, when friends ask about it. Just say it disappeared one day.

    4. To get rid of any kind of associated paraphernalia, and to stop indulging illness rituals and habits (e.g., taking a preemptively palliative nap, buying fancy pill boxes, etc.)

    The idea is to deny the existence of the thing in your life, until it doesn't exist. Then to continue denying its existence for you, even though others continue to accept it for themselves.

    A lot of people on Cif got upset about my publishing such an outlook. People LIKE their illnesses. They don't take kindly to being told they can rid themselves of all illness easily. I believe that's because they take comfort from the rituals of visiting doctors, popping pills, being looked after and sympathised with, etc.

    I don't get ill. I don't even get a cold any more. I visualise my immune system as being invincible, and I see getting ill as something shameful (for me - knowing what I know - not you). In order to rid yourself of any kind of bad habit, you first have to associate it with more psychological pain than psychological pleasure. You have to get become disgusted by allowing the invasion of an illness into your perfect body, mind and life.

    What does anyone have to lose by vocally denying the existence of illness in their life? What might they gain?

  126. Blimey, been out since the crack of sparrows & just got back so trying to catch up here ...

    From yesterday's thread - I'll buy you a soda straight away!

    Home rule for Yorkshire!
    Thanks for the list - my MP is on it & I will be letting him know what I think.

  127. billp - I never get ill myself and am generally (these days) very happy, but has anyone ever accused you of a lack of empathy? FFS, just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

    (Oh shit, I'm going to regret this.)

  128. Thaumaturge - yeah dogs and cats are very good at that! Also good at looking starving and pathetoc when they want feeding!

    Had a cat once who somewhat over round (like her owner!). She could still look starving and pathetic when she wanted to! in fact that was the reason why she was so round! Played te same trick on lots of other houses in the street.

    She was also fond of a drop! You didn't dare put your drink on the floor! She'd be there slurping!

    She died of liver failure - always felt guilty about that :-(

  129. The lunatic is on the grass
    The lunatic is on the grass
    Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
    Got to keep the loonies on the path

    That is actually a good "depression" song too

  130. And there's also Shine on you crazy diamond ...

  131. annetan42 - first let me say, nice to talk to you: I don't think we've ever directly engaged before, but I always like your posts.

    Dog has been fed now and is stretched out on the sofa, in supreme dogly relaxation, ready for bed, but if anyone stopped by, she would be pretending that I never feed her....

    She's not interested in booze (luckily, or we'd fight) but a friend's staffy was like that, especially with whiskey - couldn't put your glass on the floor.

    Tried all sorts of food and drink experiments with my horse. Legend has it that Irish race horses are raised on Guinnness, but he didn't like it (silly bugger). Ditto champagne (although other horses in the stable took a real shine to it). Coca-cola he liked (ugh) and seedless grapes, but not grapes with seeds - somehow he could tell by smelling them. Very serious about his carrots and apples, predictably.

  132. @ anntan42

    Loved it the idea of cat dying of alcho induced liver failure cracked me up!

    We once had cat we called Morgan (a suitable case for treatment - a film from the 1960's) I'll tell you a tale about him when I've penned me bit on dogs 4BB and thaum..

    Hi mschin - Fine place Yorkshire tha knows. More acres than words in the bible etc.

  133. sartrecastic12 May, 2009 21:59

    When I want cheering up, I play this.


    ... Or failing that, this.


    When I was depressed music was not for cheering up, it was for inciting any kind of dynamic feeling at all. So, lots and lots of Smiths. A cliche, I know, but I was only a young'un.


    1. To stop talking about it where posible.
    2. To stop admitting to suffering from it.
    3. To actively deny suffering from it, when friends ask about it. Just say it disappeared one day.

    I'm sorry, but -this- -doesn't- -work-.

    What's wrong with being depressed anyway? Even if you don't sort of turn it into an entity by considering it to be a clinical illness, and by referring to it possessively, what's wrong with admitting that you feel completely despondent, all the time?

    I don't like all this denialism. This approach signifies to me an unhealthy disgust with anything not socially considered to be a morally right way to feel about life. I heard a girl say the other day that she spoke to someone who had no friends and never looked happy because she felt sorry for her. When said girl told her that she wanted to die because she felt ugly and no one would ever like her, and she couldn't immediately talk her out of this mindset, she became disgusted by her, and threw her into moral reproach for having the gall to feel sad when, after all, there are people in the world starving and dying of AIDs, as if that is any consolation at all to the depressed individual.

  134. mschin

    Shine On You Crazy Diamond - bloody hell that takes me back as well, to when I was 15!

    I have a horrible confession to make, pop pickers. The first two albums I bought were Dark Side of the Moon and Once Upon a Star by the Bay City Rollers with the same fiver! :D

  135. Ah yes, how could we forget the Floyd?

    The lunatic is in my head....
    You raise the blade
    You make the change
    You rearrange me till I'm sane
    You lock the door
    And throw away the key
    There's someone in my head, but it's not me

    And from the same song, class lyric:

    The lunatics are in my hall
    The paper holds their folded faces to the floor

    Although I think the most disturbing one is Hey You: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRcQZ2tnWeg

  136. annetan

    Cats are fab! And they are our owners, not the other way about! Sadly my other half is allergic to them, so no chance of having one in the house, which is a bummer.

  137. thaumaturge: "(Oh shit, I'm going to regret this.)"

    That's wrong thinking, also.

    I went to certain lengths to make it clear that I KNOW illness exists for OTHERS. It just doesn't exist for me; in my mind and body. Perhaps there are germs and other invaders out there, I don't know, I don't care, and I don't dwell on such things. All I know is that MY invincible immune system, backed by MY right thinking, prevents any external agent from having a pernicious effect on MY organism.

    As for my lacking empathy, you are correct. My empathising with ill people would only make things worse. I see no point in actively encouraging people in what I believe to be their delusions. I'm not saying that the illness doesn't exist for them, or that the symptoms are not apparent to all. What I'm saying is that the illness don't have to exist for them.

    What you are asking me to do is akin to empathising with a person who is continually losing his or her lover (symptoms of illness) due to unjustified fits of jealousy (wrong thinking). Would it not be more kind for me to try to point out what I believe to be the root cause of the trouble?

  138. shine onnnnnnnnnnn is my favorite song of all PF & David G's...

    Bill, I liked the list you provided to defy & get rid of depression and will give it ago; i guess i have nothing to lose by trying.

    I used to get a lot of severe neck pain and somehow related it to my depression. After 6 sessions of Physio it has completely disappeared now! I do feel happier in the morning when I wake up without the neck-ache. (my pillow had nothing to do with it, I am still using the same pillow!)

  139. Hey You... blimey.

    And Comfortably Numb is good as well.

  140. deano
    The Invisible Sky Pixie's own country, me owd.

    To the animal lovers, I just gave in to my hound's pleading eyes & occasional begging whine, gave him a biscuit, straightened up his bedding .. he ate the biccy, laid down for a nanosecond on his bed, then got up to play the same game with my beloved in the other room. Classic!

  141. "Rock 'n' Roll Doctor" by Little Feat played at full volume. Great song, great band. Definitely a depression buster.
    "Magic Bus" by The Who from their album "Live at Leeds". Ditto.
    "Pacifying Joint" by The Fall (Fall Heads Roll), oh and about a million more, all on my hard drive.
    Had a fox terrier once who was fond of beer...

  142. Ah, BB, I have to confess to having a vinyl copy of Piper at the gates of dawn, which was selling rather well on ebay last year. My kids voted to keep it & not sell it!

  143. mschin

    "The Invisible Sky Pixie's own country"

    LOL. Had an ex who insisted he was from the People's Republic of Yorkshire

  144. I just watched Michael Portillo on Horizon...WTF!!! ...and d'ya know ...it was pretty good. Obviously, he's no Stephen Hawking sorta thing but it was absorbing...then fuckin scary...watch it if you get a chance...

    The BNP would take a lot of heart from just how many potential mindless, amoral drones are out there. Seriously...watch it.

    Then Jools came on: New York Dolls...rolling back the decades...glorious

    Why am I feeling so old all of a sudden?

  145. My son is a big Who fan, Dan. Plays Spark from Tommy just like Townsend - no joke. Not bad for a nipper.

  146. Cheech & Chong - the one with the line
    Don't Bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me

  147. 'MY invincible immune system, backed by MY right thinking, prevents any external agent from having a pernicious effect on MY organism.'

    An excellent example of delusion. Let's hope that swine flu won't put that theory to the test.

  148. monkeyfish - i am so old i can remember buying two new realease albums for a fiver... and i probably had enough for fish and chips on the way home too. ;)

    I wonder if they will have Horizon on the iPlayer.. will check it out tomorrow

  149. billp - some people (many of my relatives, so maybe I'll be lucky) don't experience a minute's illness in their lives until the end. Personally I think this makes me genetically lucky, not superior. I drink, I smoke, I eat whatever I want and don't get ill or put a pound on - that's luck. Some day it may all catch up with me.

    I certainly don't attribute my good luck to my mental attitude, although I accept that attitude may have some small factor in it. I've known hypochondriacs. But mostly it's genetic - just check scientific evidence.

    BB - yessss, comfortaly numb - that's up next on the jukebox!

    mschin - do you mean 'hound' literally, or just as a synonym for dog? Curious cos I have a hounnnnnd....

  150. satrecastic: "I'm sorry, but -this- -doesn't- -work-."

    How do you know? Have you tried it?

    "What's wrong with being depressed anyway?... what's wrong with admitting that you feel completely despondent, all the time?"

    Nothing's wrong with it, but who'd want that life if an alternative was available? The illogical answer to that question is, of course, many, many people.

    "I don't like all this denialism."

    I've discovered that denial isn't the sin it's made out to be. Denial appears to be a gift that we can use, along with creative thought in having our ideal lives made manifest. Denial comes in handy for ridding your life of less-than-optimal thinking that you have been conditioned to accept as normal and unavoidable, like the inevitability of illness, for example. Others may more readily sees its healthy uses with respect to escaping religious intruction received in youth. Denial is a tool for deconditioning your mind.

    "This approach signifies to me an unhealthy disgust with anything not socially considered to be a morally right way to feel about life."

    You've picked me up wrong. I don't say it is disgusting to ME that ANOTHER suffers from depression, only that I've come to consider it shameful that *I* would ever allow illness into MY life (knowing what I know). How you allow yourself to feel is your business. I only comment on that at all, because we're on a forum.

  151. p.s. Had totally forgotten that Geldof played Pink in the film. He did do some good stuff before all the do-gooding! (Not that I'm suggesting that do-gooding is bad.) Also 'I Don't Like Mondays' is great no matter what any snob says.

  152. thauma
    Not he's a dog of indeterminant ancestry, no way a hound in the pedigree sense. But he was on his way to be drowned as a puppy when I met him, so he's been with us for almost 13 years.

  153. BB - I remember being a (young) teenager and hoping I'd feel something like this one day. Love Reign O'er Me set to nature pics:


    Not sure I ever have. ;-)

    Song really a bit off-topic but something like 'Substitute' or '5:15' could be?

  154. deano30 - "Morgan a suitable case for treatment" I saw it!

    David Warner, Vanessa Redgrave, Robert Stephens. Haven't thought about tha movie for years!

  155. mschin - aww, well done you.

    I have one of these:


    Also rescued - found in woods caught in a steel trap. Stil missing bits of rear paw as a result, but it doesn't seem to slow her down in the slightest. Absolutely lovely dog; doesn't have an agressive bone in her body (well, unless you're a fox, or, presumably, raccoon).

  156. anonymous (you wouldn't consider signing in with a username I could follow, would you? If so, go to Comment As, click on Name/Url, and fill in the Name box only with some kind of unique username):

    "An excellent example of delusion. Let's hope that swine flu won't put that theory to the test."

    Oh, but that swine flu (if it indeed exists, as reported, which I doubt) HAS and WILL put that theory to the test. What's delusional about my never getting ill? I'm not denying my illnesses, apparent to everyone else. I just never exhibit any symptoms of illness. That's because illness doesn't exist for me.


    thaumaturge: "some people (many of my relatives, so maybe I'll be lucky) don't experience a minute's illness in their lives until the end. Personally I think this makes me genetically lucky, not superior. I drink, I smoke, I eat whatever I want and don't get ill or put a pound on - that's luck. Some day it may all catch up with me."

    It'll "catch up on you" if you believe it will. I wonder why you feel the need to predict doom for yourself?

    Now, what's all this about luck? Is it not more reasonable to suggest that you have inherited, genetically or otherwise, the capacity or tendency to unconsciously (and, as we see here, consciously) deny the existence of illness in YOUR life.

    That's what you just did. You denied the existence of illness in YOUR and YOUR relatives' lives. You are exhibit A for making my case.

    "I certainly don't attribute my good luck to my mental attitude"

    Why not? Since you believe you are lucky, your mental attitude is one of expecting good results... until "the end". The most tangible and measurable of the two, luck and mental attitude, is the latter. Why would you believe that luck is driving your mental attitude, and not the other way round? Isn't it more reasonable to assume that your mental attitude is creating your "luck"?

    "although I accept that attitude may have some small factor in it. I've known hypochondriacs. But mostly it's genetic - just check scientific evidence."

    Which of the following is the most reasonable to assume:

    A. You grew up in an atmosphere of lack of illness, probably among people who kept saying things like "Oh, I (or, we thaumaturges) never get ill". You inherited that right thinking.

    B. Your relatives were lucky, and you inherited that luck genetically.

    Now, are you free to tour? The caravan's just received a new coat of gay paint and we're ready for the off.

  157. Substitute me for him
    Substitute my coke for gin
    Substitute you for my mum
    At least I'll get my washing done


  158. sartrecastic12 May, 2009 22:51

    How do you know? Have you tried it?

    - yes. as have many other people. i see nothing honourable in lying to one's self about the reality of one's own feelings, at any rate. I just think accepting feelings and then working to change them through action rather than outright denial for no good *reason* is a better way of going about things, a more honest way. - I needed a *reason*, and I needed to see it in the world; I needed justification, I don't really know what for. Being alive I suppose.

    You talk about denial as a tool for doing this and I understand where you're coming from, but there's a reason I don't think that's always the case. With, say, repeated poisonous thoughts, "I am ugly", "Life is not worth living", whatever, I can agree that choosing not to entertain those thoughts can be part of changing the way you live. But those feelings, themselves, that go along with the articulated thoughts have validity. It's valid to feel sad. It's even valid to feel suicidal. But the way I came through feeling despondent was by finding something beautiful to look at or listen to that outwardly contradicted my inner feelings, so that I could feel them changing from an experience of despair to an experience of beauty. And the way I came through feeling suicidal was actually attempting suicide. I could not deny that feeling. I had to embrace it, take it to its logical conclusion and then re-emerge from the other end. I find something inhumane about the kind of regimented control of feelings that you're advocating, inhumane because in that state it is so impossible. I suppose my position might be called indulgent, even melodramatic, but I just feel it is more authentic.

    You've picked me up wrong. I don't say it is disgusting to ME that ANOTHER suffers from depression, only that I've come to consider it shameful that *I* would ever allow illness into MY life (knowing what I know). How you allow yourself to feel is your business. I only comment on that at all, because we're on a forum. -

    No, I haven't. I suppose my example could lead to that conclusion but I meant more conceptual disgust than disgust with other people for entertaining that concept, if you get me. What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with despondency in-itself. Emotion is all part of a package. Simple, flat denial is simply saying that some of those emotions have no business ever being entertained. I think that is, at best, unfortunate for one's humanity, and at worst, an outright lie.

  159. For all with a passing interest in the therapeutic civilising effects of keeping a dog(s) but feel it unfair 'cos you are out at work all day.

    If you don't like dogs this post will bore and can be safely ignored and passed

    I know that many people think that it's not right to keep a dog if you are out at work all day and the beast is left all alone.

    I think I agree especially if the dog in question is a puppy.

    The answer to the problem is to get two dogs of at least 1 year of age. Best of all from the local rescue. They do keep each other company and tend to reassure each the other that they are not abandoned when you have to be away.

    Mongrels on the whole tend to have the better temperaments and fewer health problems to boot. (At least that's my experience)

    It also helps if you have never kept a dog to understand a bit about their typical behaviour patterns and needs.

    Dogs at least in my experience are pretty sociable beasts they are after all pack animals. As I understand it they like to think/see/feel themselves as part of a pack. If you establish the proper relationship with "your" dog it sees you as pack leader.

    What many people don't get a chance to see is what dogs do when the other members of its pack are not around or are preoccupied with something else (like work)or are asleep. The answer is that they slip into something akin to a semi comatose trance or sleep.

    But they wake up instantly at an owners return. In fact they can almost tell the time when an owner will return from work - even if that person works irregular shift patterns.

    How do I know? Well truth be known I live a tramps life in small touring caravan. I've lived with my two dogs 24/7/365 in these (happy) circumstances for the last 8 years.

    If I am preoccupied with one of my interests - say watching lace leaf Japanese Maples dance in the wind to classic FM on the radio ( which I do a lot of in the summer) The dogs just doze.

    That phrase "it's a dogs life" ie it's one long zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. But the minute I even start to think about walking them - they are awake and raring to go.

    There have been hidden camera studies of what dogs do when owners are for example absent at work. They do what I report above.

    What is more amazing is that if a dog develops a close relationship with its owner it can "sense" roughly the time the "person pack dog leader" will be leaving work - they wake up and start to stand in wait (as though they have been on guard whilst you were away)

    They can adjust this behaviour if you are on changing shifts. God knows how but some dogs of shop-workers used to know when in the old days it was early day closing.

    You may already know that studies show that stroking a dog you feel close to does reduce blood pressure. And some dogs can believe it or not "smell" detect cancers in humans.

    So if you have a dog that seems to spend a lot of time nuzzling a particular place get yourself checked out - even if its your crotch or boob etc.

    Well here endeth the first Deano dog rant. Mine are a 14 year old (about 90% Bearded Collie cross by the name of Diesel and her mum was a rescue dog that I had till her death a couple of years ago) and a three year old god knows what 57 variety name of Mungo.

    Interestingly when I got him he didn't have a beard. Both Diesel and I have white beards so he grew one. I think they may be something of the old otter hound in him.

    He came from the local dogs home at about 18 months. He arrived fell on the caravan floor went to sleep and has behaved as though he was born there ever since.

    They are both nuts and the dogs in my care then certainly helped me rid myself of depression when I lost my job and was forced into early retirement years ago

    I would put excercise and dogs as an option on the NHS if I could.

    So BB I have no hesitation in saying don't be put off dog simply cos you are working - your son will grow up all the more balanced if he/you have a dog. But if you are only to have one don't make it a puppy. They do need company (can be an older dog) else when teething they chew hell out of everything.

  160. billp - I'll go for B. If you call genetics 'luck'.

    No doubt some people can talk themselves into a real or imaginary illness but I suspect it comes on most unawares. I'm certainly not going to attribute my good health to imagined superpowers.

  161. At the very least, if you have young children, begin now to CONVINCE them that they are some of the strongest physical specimens you've (you, the ultimate authority on all things) ever seen, and that they never get ill. That along with how clever, graceful, non-accident prone, good-looking, amountable to something, etc., etc., they are. They'll believe ANYTHING you tell them.

    I've found that my thinking has rubbed off on my family without my having to have formally lectured them on the subject every five minutes (or at all). That makes me believe that "authority" plays a VERY big part in what we come to believe, and, therefore, what manifests in our lives.

    The first step towards perfect health is ridding yourself of the company of accepted authorities on illness. The very sight of them is enough to make a person sick.

  162. Sorry for the confusion Bill, I am the one who enjoys the gardening & walking & liked your list... I was the first Anonymous so I would be A1 when I post from now on.

    Good night all

  163. deano - lovely story and agree completely.

    Well, almost completely....

    I have very good reason to believe that whenever I leave the house the first thing that the dog - who is pretending to sleep already - does is to check whether she has access to the kitchen.

    If she does, then the following occurs:

    - Of course, first action is to check table and kitchen counters for food and eat. Even if it means dragging plates etc onto floor and breaking them.

    - Bin is knocked over and strewn over the floor; any food wrappers chewed up.

    - Food caddy for compost is removed, emptied and eaten.

    - Cupboards within reachable height are opened and emptied in case food within (not likely).

    - In previous residence, oven was opened and cleaned.

    - Ditto fridge.

    All of these actions could be accomplished within a few minutes.

    Luckily in present house, can bar access to kitchen: she hasn't worked out how to open the door ... yet. Also fridge and oven too high for her to open now.

  164. Deano

    Thanks for that! :)

    I think I would go for a mutt rather than a pure-bred anyway, and certainly a rescue dog.

  165. Talking of dogs I was sad to see in the Battersea Dogs Home picture portfolio in the Guard the other day - nearly all the dogs they were finding it difficult to re home were predominantly Staffordshire Bull Ter crosses

    @ ann - yea that was the film although to be honest at this distance I'm damned if I can recall what the hell the film was about.

    I recall I liked the girls legs (mini skirts just about in then) and the cars and that it was hip but bugger all else do I remember!

  166. "I'm Anonymous!"

    "No, I'm Anonymous!"

    Doesn't quite have the same ring as Sparticus, does it?

    Goodnight all.


  167. Or even Spartacus.

  168. deano - yes, thought same thing. Lovely-looking mastiff though - but they don't live long enough. :-(

    Off to bed now - should have been 2 hours ago but you lot have put me in a much better mood: thanks!

  169. I dont often offer up a tune to the refuge, but if anyone is feeling down i can think of no better medicine than this:


  170. satrecastic: "- yes. as have many other people. i see nothing honourable in lying to one's self about the reality of one's own feelings, at any rate."

    I don't say you should lie about your feelings, only that you should deny that those feelings are the result of an illness, and that you have no control over them (or the illness). you may be experiencing the feelings, but you can't KNOW that they are being caused by an illness called "depression" or that such an illness is unavoidable. Therefore, to deny the existence of such an illness can't be held to be a lie, any more than the acceptance of it can. I say YOU decide what is a lie for you.

    "I just think accepting feelings and then working to change them through action rather than outright denial for no good *reason* is a better way of going about things, a more honest way."

    So, how's that working out for you?

    "I can agree that choosing not to entertain those [negative] thoughts can be part of changing the way you live. But those feelings, themselves, that go along with the articulated thoughts have validity. It's valid to feel sad."

    I don't say change the feelings; I say change the thinking. Say "I'm beautiful" while staring into the mirror. So, you notice what you call a lack of signs of classically-accepted beauty. So, stare until you see something beautiful. In the end, for each person, that's probably going to have something to do with being unique. A work of art.

    "It's even valid to feel suicidal."

    No, that's not valid.

    "But the way I came through feeling despondent was by finding something beautiful to look at or listen to that outwardly contradicted my inner feelings, so that I could feel them changing from an experience of despair to an experience of beauty."

    Meanwhile, the thinking remained, ready to create the next bout of bad feelings.

    "I find something inhumane about the kind of regimented control of feelings that you're advocating, inhumane because in that state it is so impossible."

    I don't advocate regimented control of feelings. I advocate regimented control of thought; of thinking patterns. The feelings will line up with the thinking? Are you advocating letting your thinking run amok?

    "I suppose my position might be called indulgent, even melodramatic, but I just feel it is more authentic."

    It's authentic for you, because it corresponds to your way of thinking. I say change the thinking, and you'll change what is authentic for you, and change the feelings you experience, and change your life.

    "What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with despondency in-itself. Emotion is all part of a package. Simple, flat denial is simply saying that some of those emotions have no business ever being entertained. I think that is, at best, unfortunate for one's humanity, and at worst, an outright lie."

    I say despondency has a place in the lives of each of us, but only in reasonable reaction to some identifiable stimulus. You may become despondent as a part of the grieving process, or upon witnessing some tragedy, etc. However, to just become despondent is indulgent and unreasonable, and based on thinking that is preponderantly controlled by emotion rather than reason.

    I feel it is unreasonable to consider that the human body is less than perfectly designed (or eveolved, if you like that better). I feel it is unreasonable to expect it to fail in face of attacks from "germs", etc. And I feel it is entirely unreasonable that the English language provides no suitable antonym for the word hypochondriac.

  171. I'm reminded that my father was an advocate of the "mind over matter" approach to good health.

    When I finally worked out where he was coming from I finally came to understand why if I told him I had a toothache he used to jump on my toes.

    He always maintained he could think himself better if any kind of illness threatened to invade his space.

    It was true that by jumping on my toe he made the toothache vanish - it was instantly replaced by a throbbing toe.

    It was all part of the "training" as he explained it.

    Whilst he had a weird but creditable theory about illness and pain I think the larger truth was that he also enjoyed an astonishingly high threshold of pain that I put down to genetic good fortune.

  172. billp: "So, stare until you see something beautiful. In the end, for each person, that's probably going to have something to do with being unique. A work of art."

    Think "driftwood". See the beauty beyond, or inherent in, the ravages.

    You are, and will feel accordingly with, whatever you BELIEVE yourself to be. Your subsconscious will accept whatever you feed it via conscious thought, and, especially, the expression of that thought.

    Best get started building the new you now. Cutting new neural paths takes time. However, since it is impossible to actually "be in two minds", the old ones must close up as new ones are actively cut.

    Anyone who has ever marvelled at a plain girl having lots of genuine personality and confidence should have no trouble acknowledging what effect right thinking can have on apparent "reality". A girl like that always make you second guess your own first impression regarding her physical "beauty". You begin to actively search for what must be hidden beauty among her facial features. Her thinking changes your thinking. Laziness makes you accept that she must be physically beautiful... somehow. The world, hers and yours, has been changed by one person's apparent "denial".

  173. "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handey

  174. Enjoyed that one Jay


    I have a weak/slow connection so can't usually get my computer to do several things at once and vid's usually slow things down a lot.

    I'm on mobile broadband so there must be "suitable" atmospherics which increase the signal strength over my part of Yorks this night. Still it worked for once

  175. Funny enough TB was the writing on Dad's Death Cert too.

    Everybody else thought the old boy had a smokers cough - he got through about 60 a day for almost 50 years - one morning he went to the loo shouted "Alice" me mams name and fell down dead.

    Fine way to go I hope I go the same.

  176. For anyone interested in the topic of how your thought creates your reality. Try:


    "Man is made or unmade by himself; in the armoury of thought he forges the weapons by which he destroys himself; he also fashions the tools with which he builds for himself heavenly mansions of joy and strength and peace. By the right choice and true application of thought, man ascends to the Divine Perfection; by the abuse and wrong application of thought, he descends below the level of the beast. Between these two extremes are all the grades of character, and man is their maker and master."

    This should be required reading for all those suffering from "depression".

    It goes without saying that your first duty to yourself is to protect your thinking from potentially deleterious external sources (like advertising, the media, propaganda, criticism, your mum, etc.)

  177. Don't get me wrong, I believe in toothache. However, toothache has its root cause (doh!) in wrong thinking also. You can't just think your teeth clean and maintained in a healthy condition. Just as you can't just think you have a parachute on... and expect good results from jumping out of a plane.

    The ability to feel pain is a part of the body's defence mechanism. Its experience is supposed to change your thinking and, subsequently, your action (e.g. refrain from telling your dad when you have toothache).

  178. @ Sartrecastic


    That is indeed class I adore it too - the one that Mozart copied down later after the one hearing?

  179. @ B

    "The ability to feel pain is a part of the body's defence mechanism."

    It is indeed as too is ability to deny pain.

    I should have added that my father was a miner at a time when underground accidents were commonplace.

    In truth his whole attitude towards pain and health was conditioned by his everyday experiences. He once explained that it wasn't that he didn't feel compassion or pain but that he could never allow himself to admit or show it.

    The problem as he explained it was that if you are underground with your mates and a rock/face fall causes crushes a mate and virtually tears his arms or legs from his body you don't admit it. You actively deny it - "bloody things torn your shirt or trews etc"

    The reasoning as I later came to understand it was that as was often the case you would be several miles from the pit shaft and if your mate couldn't be encouraged to walk or to help himself as much as possible there was little chance for him.

    They also seemed to have intuitively known that in nasty accidents underground most died quickly from shock if they sensed or understood the severity of the injury - hence the ingrained denial.

    It didn't always work lots of men died but some were conned into living. My dad would say the time to vomit and wet yourself at the horror of what you saw was after you got your mate out and when he wasn't\looking.

  180. "I should have added that my father was a miner at a time when underground accidents were commonplace."

    I bet his mates were glad when he retired then.

  181. "It didn't always work lots of men died but some were conned into living."

    Great way of putting it!

    I say we can "con ourselves" into entering any reality we decide to experience. That is, "reality" is a neutral environment, an ether, and we fill that depending on the thoughts we entertain and encourage.

    Once we believe our chosen reality, others begin to believe it also, and to support us in it. It's very important that you guard your expressions of thought, by word, deed or body language, when in the company of others, so as to "train" them to only confirm the reality you WISH to experience.

    In other words, you have to condition your circle to want to "voluntarily" exclaim things like "Oh, you're as strong as an ox. You're never sick" and similar up-building phrases. You do that by priming their lazy (they haven't the time or energy to think anything about you other than what you tell them) little pumps with such examples.

    The last thing you need in life is miner mates who constantly confirm your initially expressed fear that your leg is hanging off.

  182. @ yeractual

    "I bet his mates were glad when he retired then."

    Except for all the beer he bought when he won at dominoes!

    @ B

    I have some sympathy with the idea of Physician heal the sen and as dad might have had it - "do it now else"

    I have been fortunate to have inherited my dads stubborn genes and bye and bye enjoy pretty good health and always have done.

    Even though I never had to go anywhere near the pit I brought my kids up with the same "training" that my dad took me through. Whenever somebody mentions toothache in our family the kids rub their toes.

    I'm very much lucky enough to be considered as strong as an Ox, constitution of a horse etc.

    On those odd occasions when I completely abuse my body with booze for several days on end without a break I can still wake up when its time to stop and shake my head put 5 litres of water in a rucksack and walk and walk til I'm sober.

    Usually on route I convince myself that I wasn't drunk to start with and as a result I simply don't have hangovers.

    It's an equitable life Henry - and I must be away to my bed

    Night all.