13 May 2009

Daily Chat 13/05/09

On this day in 1787, Captain Arthur Phillip left Portsmouth with a fleet of 11 ships to establish a penal colony in Australia.  In 1912, the Royal Flying Corps was established and in 1981, Mehmet Ali Agca attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II.  Celebrating birthdays:  Zoë Wanamaker, Stevie Wonder, Hootie (aka Darius Rucker) and Stephen Colbert.  It's Rotuma Day in Fiji.


  1. I am first! olala! Good morning all


  2. Montana, this a great way to wake up! Thanks for your hard efforts, much appreciated. A1

  3. Stevie Wonder: Happy Birthday to you.

  4. I agree A1

    You are doing a great job Montana

  5. Anne Widecombe is being quite funny about expenses on R4 Today. She referred a competition about 'My hair shirt is hairier than yours!' A lot of that going on at the moment

    I have a sneaking admiration for her even though her politics are anathema to me.

    She is matter of fact says what she thinks and does give a flying fuck what any body else thinks!

  6. I hope everyones enjoying the footage of the various little piglets interviews on youtube and BBC etc, Blears knows she's screwed, the Speaker is crumbling, Tebbit advocating a boycott of all major parties, its all kicking off and watching the vermin squirm really is most satisfying.

  7. Toast and Marmite13 May, 2009 08:38

    Morning all. Didn't Blears, (aka the most powerful borrower in the country,) make you squirm when she started waving her cheque about?

    Sausage butties for breakfast today! (Yay!)

  8. annetan24
    I can never forgive her repatriation of Ken Saro-Wiwa knowing full well he would be executed. She is to me an utterly soulless human, for all her pompous religiosity.

  9. Mrs Pepperpot must be on a good wedge if she can write a cheque to the taxman for thirteen grand, just like that.

    Who says politics don't pay?

    Morning everyone, by the way. Was out of the office yesterday, so missed Polly Toynbee's article in the Graun calling time on Gordon Brown. Did you all have a bit of a natter about that yesterday?

  10. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 09:19

    Anyone yet seen this:


    I guess there is a reason one cannot comment on that. "We declare something is sexist against women by just looking at the way women are treated and not looking at the way men are treated." Yeah, that's the way to go to come to unbiased assessments, of course.

    And the poor female offenders who harm themselves because they are in "a system designed for (sic!) men"? If the prison system is designed for men, then so is the system of top jobs in the economy, and feminists demand more women being in *that* system.

    And "women are held in low positions in the police because of the culture of long working hours"? Come effing on!

    I guess, there is only question left: What will Bidisha write about this? What Bindel? And: Aren't these two questions, really?

  11. @elementary_watson:

    My only reaction was "yes dear, of course it is".

    In all honestey, what else did you expect from the Fawcett Society?

  12. Sunny day in Yorkshire - but that east wind is a bastard for my Acers.

    Must send my lovely Fijian daughter (in law) Rotuma Day greetings. She, with son, currently taking a backpackers year out and touring the world. I think it's called an early mid life gap year (they are both in their early 30's)

    ..........sends text to Bolivia and opens van door and contemplates a start to the days dog walking...

    @ Swiftboy

    Pepperpot like a lot of crooks is probably an astute accountant - they often put the proceeds of the illicit lifting into separate accounts.

    They seem to like to have separate piles of money that they can take out and count. I'm unreliably informed that this hoarding helps them orgasm. It's not a gender thing it's a crook thing.

    Regards. have enjoyed your posts that I have read.

  13. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 09:36

    SwiftyBoy: Not much. But taking this stuff at face value and publishing it is just *sigh* *arrgh* *smash* *sob*

    But your calm words make me feel better, thanks.

  14. Hey I didn't know what Rotuma Day was either. It's.........

    Wiki "Rotuma Day is an annual celebration on the island of Rotuma, a Fijian dependency. It falls on 13 May, the anniversary of the island's cession to the United Kingdom in 1881."

  15. Toast and Marmite13 May, 2009 09:40

    Morning SwiftyBoy. Most of yesterday's posts on here were about the nature of illness and depression. Cif was VERY busy in response to Polly's column though.

  16. @deano30:

    Re. the odious Blears, you're no doubt right about the pots of cash sloshing around the family accounts, mate. After all, she should have money - the way she's played the property game with our cash, she'd have to be astonishingly inept (hmmm...) if she hadn't turned a very handy profit.

    And now I see Health Minister Phil Hope (who he?) is planning to repay £41,709 in claimed expenses.

    I'm beginning to think this sackcloth and ashes schtick is worse than the chiselling, to be honest. Because it obviously has one purpose, and one purpose only - job saving. Though I think it's a tad late for that, boys 'n' girls.

  17. I love Yorkshire. Gordale Scar is just the most awe inspiring place in England. I could live up there in a tent (summers only).

    Definitely decided not to re-apply to Cif for the sake of my sanity, and especially after their snotty email to me.

    "Substitute" is the best pop song EVER...

  18. I agree she is hide bound and follows rules but none of us are one sided. She has a kind of twisted 'courage of her convictions'. The convictions are pretty foul but at least she has them - rare in a politician these days - no-one on the labour side like that - no-one of any importance anyway. They blow any way they think will get power. She doesn't you know what your dealing with - compare her to Cameron and the Tory loons who are presently attacking the minimum wage. Its a human right to be able to opt out of the minimum wage apparently! The sort of Tory who 'pretends' to support the working class is the sort that I really hate.

    I like WYSIWYG people you know where you are with them.

  19. @elementary_watson:

    Agreed. The credulousness and naivety of organisations like Fawcett, and media outlets like the Graun for publishing them uncommented, are a source of constant amusement, until you realise that these clowns can actually influence government policy.

    And when I said "Yes dear, of course it is", I had in mind the headline of the article "Justice system a 'sexist operation', study finds". Although I'm glad I soothed your furrowed brow as well, obviously :-)

    There is very little in our modern British society which Fawcett wouldn't be able somehow to find "sexist" or "racist" or "homophobic" or whatever.

  20. @ T&Marm

    "Most of yesterday's posts on here were about the nature of illness and depression.

    True but they did end on a note of miners legs hanging off!

  21. Sure, convictions, I understand what you mean in as much as she's not one of these interchangeable professional politicians; it's just that *that* particular act was, at least, to me, one of profound immorality and yet she plays her RC 'morality' for all its worth.
    I guess she was only obeying orders... She's not of the same order of bastard as Blair, I'll give you that.

  22. Elementary watson-

    I can remember my father asking, when I first encountered feminism, would you expect women to go down mines?

    I said no but I don't think men should have to either.

    Self harming is common amongst young men in prison too. Prison isn't 'designed for men' is it its designed for offenders.

    There is an issue about the appropriateness of prison for anyone who has:
    Not committed a violent crime
    has mental health issues

    The only gender issue relating to prison is the issue of pregnant women in jail and what happens to the child after its removed from the mother. I can remember the time when women were handcuffed to bed while in labour (That was Anne widdecombe in inflexible treat everyone the same mode too). The idea that a woman in labour is capable of absconding is risible.

    But the same goes for any prisoner who is

    One thing for sure - we lock up too many people who are just not coping mental health, learning difficulties and so on.

    Thats what we should be looking at, its an issue that is relevant to men and women alike and of course that would include all people male or female that self harm.

    The Fawcett society needs to adopt a more flexible approach this isn't 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Most of the issues that disadvantage women(and there are some) are ones that need to be solved by men and women together and actually are problems we have in common like child care housework and being a PARENT. Both men and women would benefit from sharing these things better.

    All the Fawcett rubbish divides us and stops us from sorting this out properly.

  23. Its a shame there is no 'good feminist' body to counteract the Fawcett agend. Not that Fawcett are always objectionable, they arent, but frequently they are.

    Blears is quite simply unspeakable. If i were free to run around the boards with JR i would be ceaselessly campaigning for her arrest. I wonder what her famous Salford constituency think of her now. I have a feeling she wont be "out knockin on doors" for a while.

    Michael Martin is also pushing for top honours in this scandal, what a shameless invertebrate.

  24. @ annetan42

    I find your sketch of Widdi accurate and she does like her mum which is at least a start on the road to humanity.

    I know what you mean about the often like-able nature of WYSIWYG people but there are limits.

    What about the uber creep Mandelson?

    Only a nutter could pretend he is anything but a WYSIWYG person. You see slimy toad you get slimy toad. But personally I can't like him I can't even stand the thought of being in the same County as him.

    Blair? - Toothpaste salesperson with public school education and bad breath?

    Ms Blair? - Escaped manic relative of a thespian with bad taste in lifestyle advisers ?

    Brown? - maniac Son of the Manse with propensity to profanity and insanity?

    Best W for a fine day

  25. Blears? - an escapee from a traveling freak show

  26. Don't get me started on the Fawcett Society. I see that there's an article on the Graun about recent discoveries by the society that the British justice system is biased against women, yet we can't comment on it! Gah!

  27. @deano30:

    Good to have another Yorkshireman hereabouts! I'm from N Yorks, had a bit of a pang this morning reading the Metro on the way in to work, there was an article on the Feversham Arms Hotel in Helmsley, quite took me back, a town I know very well.

    And you're right of course, Mandelson is a distinctly unpleasant character. Another for whom Widdecombe's epithet "something of the night about him" comes to mind.

    I'm not sure quite what the public face of Gordon Brown would tell the less well-informed about his private personality though. He pretends gravitas, but is by all accounts peevish, petty, malicious and prone to volcanic outbursts of temper. Which would normally incline me to quite like him, of course, but I'll make an exception in his case...

  28. Mick Martin? - Glasswegian thug to be avoided in an AMT que

  29. @ SwiftBoy

    Feversham Arms - I think that I may have been quite poorly there once but I can't be sure.

    I think it was when I was hitching to the Bay and when the traffic is slow you call in and have a wet, as you do, and then perhaps another..............and the next thing you know is its about 40 years later and you a have a vague warm recollection of a place. And I suppose the final clue is when your face breaks into an uncontrollable smile

    I have certainly been very poorly in just about every other pub in Helm I know the streets well - I've slept on them often enough.

    Glad there are other sane folk on this thread. I still have the pleasure of living in Yorks albeit I have migrated from the West to East via a spell in Lancashire and Shropshire and with the work experience of an itinerant hippy labourer in just about every other County in England.

    Best W.

  30. Incidentally, that's an interesting-ish thread over there on people's online "handles".

    Mine's relatively straightforward - I just chucked a "y" on my surname and added a word which described me.

    I'm quite nippy, and my surname's Bo. Simple, really.

    Ho ho.

  31. @deano:

    Ryedale's a lovely part of N Yorkshire, to be honest. From little villages like Hovingham through market towns like Helmsley, perched on the border of the N Yorks Moors and within striking distance of York to the south and Filey, Scarborough and R H's Bay the East, there's lots for everyone there...

    ...except a miserable Goth teenager like I was. Leeds was where it was at in those days. My best mate moved there in his late teens, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven (the big cloudy place in the sky, not the nightclub I should add).

    My dad still lives up there, though, so I do get a chance to release the odd wistful sigh or two when we go visiting.

  32. Of course it all makes sense now SwiftBoy - the bit about your cricketing daughter the other day I should have guessed your origins!

    Who says I was not an early advocate of the feminist cause - when my first child Emma was born I insisted that we move back to Yorks so that the child could be born in the hallowed acres - just in case it (he/she) would wish to play.

    Bloody team's never been the same since they let foreigners in

    Ryedale is a delight I was brought up as a child in - you guessed Leeds (Born S Yorks).

    Anyway enuf from me a thread with the same name constantly appearing is a tedious read. TTFN

  33. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 11:43

    SwiftyBoy: Erm, I understood that the "yes dear, of course it is" was directed at the Fawcett Soxiety/the writer; but still, it was so calm, so unperturbed by the stupidness, it really made an impression on me that was soothing. Like, watching a buddhist monk meditating in the midst of idiocy, or something.

    Annetan: You are absolutely right, and women who harm themselves in prison have my sympathy. This sympathy does not extend, however, to those who hold up this suffering for their own political goals and ignore the suffering of people not in the group they lobby for.

    I had some problems posting this (blogger said it couldn't do it, Dave); anyone any idea what's going on?

  34. e_w - probably site maintenance I had a similar problem trying to post a short while ago

  35. @elementary_watson:

    Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being a patronising twat towards you, mate. Whereas, of course, I'd quite happily "patronise away" all day long if ever invited in error to a Fawcett meeting - you know, congratulate the well-heeled and well-meaning Hermiones, Pippas, etc on being "jolly clever, however do you think of such things?", etc.

  36. "PM calls for cashpoint police escorts" Guardian headline

  37. @Anonymous:

    GB's really just making it up as he goes along, isn't he? I do really wonder whether he's having some kind of very public breakdown (and I'm not saying that facetiously, I should add, I'm well aware of the problems caused by mental ill health, I had a bout of PTSD while in the Forces).

  38. @ SBoy

    cf "Brown? - maniac Son of the Manse with propensity to profanity and insanity?"

  39. I just can't decide whether the Guardian have reached a new high or low with their Bindel interviews Burchill article.....

  40. Toast and Marmite13 May, 2009 12:34

    Didn't know you were in the forces SwiftyBoy? There's a few of us ex-mob knocking about Cif, and I'm pretty sure we could put together much better articles on military matters than the likes of Robert Fox.

    Still, at least he isn't Con Coughlin.

  41. @T&M:

    I often wondered how many of us there were over there. Mr exArmy, obviously, though he seems to be off map just now, and a fella called June16 I think (he took real offence at that ludicrous Cath Elliott article where her daughter was frightened by a military parade through her town).

    Who else served?

    PS I don't mind old Foxy's ramblings too much, it's entertaining enough to read his armchair general/diplomat take on the pressing military issues of the day. Don't believe I'm familiar with Con Coughlin's writing (is he the bloke who used to write for the Torygraph?)

  42. Never served, but have three mates who are ex forces. Known em all seven or eight years. One in particular had severe PTSD. Is in therapy, and is aiming to stay involved in therapy.

  43. @Bitterweed:

    I feel for your mate. I had what I suppose was a very mild bout of it, manifested itself as no more than the very occasional panic attack and a slightly odd feeling that "I shouldn't be here" (i.e. alive). Never got any worse than that, really, never had to take meds or anything, just talked it through, finally realising that I was in control of it.

  44. Little lad i went to school with joined the paras, came back from Iraq with half his hand missing and a scar all the way up his arm from the skin grafts, saw him at a club but from what i could make out he put his hand in a glove compartment, the fuse of a grenade went off but not the whole thing but it took most of his hand. Wasnt pretty.

  45. @Doohnibor:

    I just read that Bindel/Burchill piece. Rather wish I hadn't to be honest.

    Mind you, "Bindel Burchill" would be a brilliant name for the protagonist in a novel, wouldn't it?

  46. where is this bindel/burchill article? i dont know if its a good idea for me to read it whilst banned but i feel intrigued.

  47. @jay:

    Careful what you wish for:


    It is grotesquely awful.

  48. Toast and Marmite13 May, 2009 13:49


    "Don't believe I'm familiar with Con Coughlin's writing (is he the bloke who used to write for the Torygraph?)"

    Yep. Still does, a neo-con apologist so deluded and right wing that even the whiskery faced hang-em-all ex-colonels who comment tell him to take some meds and get back in his box.

    Hmmm, I once did a presentation on Gerald Templer's counter-insurgency tactics, wonder if I could write something up about how his lessons could be applied today? Not sure how much of an audience there'd be for it on here though?

  49. I'm completely baffled. Its so awful that i really dont know where to start at all.

  50. @T&M:

    Templer was an interesting bloke alright, coined "hearts and minds" in that specific context for those around here unfamiliar with him.

    It's a sound theory, and its application in Malaya won him many plaudits.

    Shame the subsequent application of it in Nam through the American lens discredited it a bit in the eyes of the wider population.

    I'm guessing Staff College stuff might be a tad arcane (or uninteresting) for us here. Might be worth a punt to the Graun though, especially given the enormous narco problem in the 'Stan and Templer's predilection for denying the enemy sustenance through widespread use of herbicides...

  51. Toast and Marmite13 May, 2009 14:14

    Wasn't staff college level - it was an intelligence briefing written and presented in intelligible English!

    I might well contact the Graun and see what they say. Myself and others are always moaning on places like ARRSE and Cif about the poor quality of journalism when it comes to the military. Suspect I'm going to find it easier to snipe than to write something good!

  52. Afternoon Ciffers

    Just about to take a look at the Bindel column. I have never trusted her since the day I saw her on TV - I think it was on the day when the Emma Humphreys appeal was won, where she said from outside the RCJ on the lunchtime news that provocation was a valid defence for women but not to be used by men. Needless to say the Beeb edited out that bit by the evening. I have no time for bigots, even feminist ones.

  53. @ SwiftBoy

    "It is grotesquely awful"

    Your so right my friend - I couldn't get past ......

    "Bindel: You describe yourself as a "militant feminist". What does that mean to you?

    Burchill: "A girl who likes to have fun" ... and a lot of other stuff obviously.

    Still it helps me understand that that it is not just a gender or generational issue that divides us - it's certainly a fucking language issue at the very least and in truth a lot more beside.

    Red Robbo an alleged militant trade unionist from the Longbridge factory would no more said " a trade unionist who likes to have fun" - to the question "what does it mean to you to be a militant trade unionist"? - than he would have
    been to urge the lads and lasses to vote for Thatcher.

    Being a militant anything is not fun it's hard fucking work in the UK. Tosser or should I say clit stroker.

    Pardon my pretend abusive language there is plainly nothing wrong with clits, stroking or if it comes down to it tossers.

    I'll stick with SwiftBoys assessment -"
    It is grotesquely awful."

    Sorry to hear about their PTSD cases. It really is difficult place to be at (as I understand it from a non military position).

    I was "chatting" here last night about my miner father and health/depression matters. Of his time and place I think there were also a lot of cases of something akin to undiagnosed PTSD in mining communities.

    I think it is often a problem for people who do frightening jobs.

    WOW FUCKING WOW wild dear running across the field where I live!! It's going to be good summer.

    My father always understand that for some (a lot more than would ever admit it)the very act of going several miles deep underground was a daily trauma that for some poor sods involved pissing themselves everyday when the cage started down.

    As he said it's a fucking awful job for anybody with sufficient imagination to think what it must be like to buried alive.

    Eventually some poor guys just couldn't do it any more. Out of work thereafter they often hung around the villages - but the working lads always bought them the odd beer. There but for the grace of god......

  54. Good lord!

    That was toe-curlingly terrible.

  55. It's a test people... they want our hits back

    Fuck 'em.

    It's a trap.

  56. @T&M:

    "it was an intelligence briefing written and presented in intelligible English!"

    A first!!!!!!!! Only joking, there's an art to writing an intelligence briefing that's intelligible. Many have tried, few have succeeded...

    Anyway, I've never dabbled with ARRSE, to be honest. I'd never do ANY work if I allowed myself on there, I'd be reminiscing all day. But yeah, the Graun is in dire need of something/ anything intelligent and presented in intelligible English (whether on matters military or otherwise) so good luck with that.

    But I know what you mean about sniping. I'm the same, really. I know just what I don't like but when it comes to writing up something that makes a case for it, I'm signally lacking.

    I'd certainly read the article though mate, because I am convinced that we are thoroughly stuck in Afghanistan. No doubt like you, I number amongst my very good friends people who are still in, and I think it's fair to say that the general view among them is that the medium- to long-term prognosis is very poor if things go on as they are. We have to change what we're doing out there.

    I'm wondering what this new Yank, McChrystal, will bring to the party? There's some are saying that previous incumbent McKiernan has been hard done by.

  57. Just looked at the bindel-Burchil thingy (I won't dignify it with the word 'article').

    WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT was that all about? I almost felt like a gooseberry!

    I can't be bothered to comment!

  58. @ BB The RCJ gives me PTSD - Hope the troublesome Judicary was less tedious today.

    My experience of the RCJ is that it's a bit like a shady kennel. Poor dogs come from too much inbreeding so too poor lawyers.

    Bring back the Hampshire Lad least I think Denning MR was from Hampshire?

  59. Speaking of Denning and Bind/Burch in the same thread is a problem.

    (BTY wiki confirms he was Hamps)

    To do justice and provide a little light relief:

    wiki - "As a Lord Justice of Appeal he continued to make reforming judgments in a variety of areas, particularly in family law and the rights of deserted wives. In 1952 the Court of Appeal heard Bendall v McWhirter [1952] 2 QB 466 and ruled that a deserted wife occupying the marital home had a personal licence to stay there.[50] The decision provoked disapproval among the judiciary and from the public; a correspondent wrote:

    Dear Sir: You are a disgrace to all mankind to let these women break up homes and expect us chaps to keep them while they rob us of what we have worked for and put us out on the street. I only hope you have the same trouble as us. So do us all a favour and take a Rolls and run off Beachy Head and don't come back.[51]

    The House of Lords effectively nullified Denning's work with the case National Provincial Bank Ltd v Ainsworth [1965] AC 1175 in 1965, which ruled that the deserted wife had no license to stay. The decision was very unpopular and led to the passing of the Matrimonial Homes Act 1967, which partially restored Denning's judgment in the form of a statute"

    Right I'm off to see I can see where the wild deer which ran by the window a while ago have gone.

  60. @T&M:

    And curiously, given what you were saying about the poor quality of journalism re. the military on the Graun, along comes this


    slovenly marching out of step with its cap on backwards and a big bit of wadding poking out of its L85A2...

    Get your lads from ARRSE together, Captain T@M, fix swords and advance on young Mr Symon Hill...

  61. Symon Hill is a Quaker.

    CiF would never get someone with a knowledge of the military life to write about life in the military.

    CiF are against Evidence Based Journalism and its colonialist ways...

  62. Deano

    I love Denning. He was from Wiltshire actually. When I was doing my studies, I got a video of him talking about one of his most infamous re-makings of English law and it was lovely to listen to his West Country burr as he talked about injustice.

    During the 80s and 90s it was easier for people who were not of the Public School/Oxbridge ivory towered set to become barristers. But Uni grants have disappeared, and the cost of the Bar exam has rocketed to £15k for the year, plus the reduction in Legal Aid, it is swinging back to being only those from monied backgrounds who, once qualified, can afford to stay at the independent Bar, which is a bloody shame.

    I was fortunate that, because I did it later in life, and am married with a husband earning a reasonable whack, I could afford two years of earning virtually naff all - although it was a struggle, at our age another £20k in debt is a drop in the ocean compared to mortgages and the like. It is so much harder for youngsters.

  63. I am really, really, really looking forward to the article about Bindel, Burchill and Bidisha recreating a 'Loose Women' panel....I do so hope that Jay's ban is lifted in time....

  64. "I am really, really, really looking forward to the article about Bindel, Burchill and Bidisha recreating a 'Loose Women' panel....I do so hope that Jay's ban is lifted in time...."

    Please tell me there is no such thing on the way? The three of them in unison? Where has this chilling prospect come from? I really do hope i am still banned because i just wont last 5 minutes if that came to fruition, its disturbing just as an idea, let alone actually seeing the damn thing on the screen in front of you. All very unsettling...

  65. Doohnibor
    Surely Bunting should be on that too...

  66. I think Tommy Cannon and Bobby Ball should be on that panel as well. Would make for a lively discussion, I've no doubt.

    Incidentally, did anyone ever play that game where you paired up ill-matched people who shared the same surname? Bobby Ball just reminded me of it, what with his lovely wife Lucille and all.

    Frank and Diana Spencer used to make me laugh.

  67. Well I have to confess that I'm not privy to the editorial meetings (although I would have paid folding money to be present at the one where this gem was mooted) but you have to admit that it would be a good one....

    Bitterweed - you're probably right, she's got the right initial and she is a feminist, but somehow, she just wouldn't fit - she'd be a bit of a Gary Barlow I reckon (c.1992) I reckon.....

  68. Doohnibor
    Strangely enough, Burchill (or "Alfred Bitchcock" as I affectionately know her) says in the 'article' her ambition is to write for Girls Aloud.

    Kill me. Just fucking kill me...

  69. Just imagine the foursome, Bunting, Bidisha, Bindel and Burchill. That is true terror.

  70. just a little....

  71. I know Bitterweed, I know....

    They seem to have edited out the bit where Bindel admits that her ultimate professional ambition is to appear in jsu her M&S undies in Nuts....

  72. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 15:58

    The B/B (why haven't they included Bidisha in their interview? Oh, I got it: They were afraid of creating a black hole of nonsensicalityness) makes me pleasure, if I may say so.

    As far as it is, I like the beginning (absolutely redundant and uninteresting, which makes its inclusion so funny) and am right now at the part of "militant feminist" Burchill defining what a "man" is - in the absolutely tradtional way, i.e. does not complain, does never take offence (by something a woman says), shuts up and carries on.

    Does it get better after this? Well, after the ---, I will know more ...


    Can anyone say "Elektra-Complex"?


    Bindel finding the totally right words: "What on earth are you talking about?"


    Never been single since 18? Can someone say "co-dependent"?


    "Marry often and live apart": Okay, I withdraw my previous comment, and ask: Is it me or her who has a weird conception of marriage?"


    "Compendium of Modern Hypocrisy": Oh, the irony! Ohh, the, erm, hypocrisy!


    A deeply religious feminist? Never seen such a one before.

    Wait, I have, and she also is ... weird ...


    Does Burchill turn into a bat at night? Sucking out all juice out of an orange has definitely vampiric undertones.


    Writing a song for Girls Aloud tops writing a great television drama series? Interesting ... No, I meant: Weird.


    Burchill makes doing voluntary work and sleeping around a lot sound like quasi equivalents. I'd love to do this kind of voluntary work, too.


    Regretting to have been very selfish while comparing an ended relationship to an orange sucked dry - Worthy of the author of "A Compendium of Modern Hypocrisy".


    Okay, this was my attempt of live-blogging my reading of the "thingy", as it was so eloquently described. My conclusion: I think Bindel wrote it all, trying to make Burchill look bad and herself smart and reasonable by comparison.

  73. If it was Bindel's intention to appear to look smart, then once again, she has made something of an arse of the project....

  74. As I said in my comment on the thread, I wonder if Burchill really knew the form this "interview" would take? I would bet a pound to a pinch of salt that she didn't realise it would be a copy-and-paste job. Bloody silly if you ask me.

  75. BeautifulBurnout
    I doubt she gives a shit as the last few articles she's run in the Gaurdian or Times have been direct copy and pastes from older articles other papers have already published... and she's had a big old boot up her ass for it too if the Eye's Street of Shame is anything to go by...
    The big, toxic, self-satisfied minger.

  76. @BW:

    Was that Eye thing not about Tanya Gold? I only ask because your description of a "big, toxic, self-satisfied minger" sounded a bit like her - except you missed out "self-obsessed" if you did mean Gold.

  77. "Just imagine the foursome, Bunting, Bidisha, Bindel and Burchill. That is true terror."

    They could start a girl band called BuBiBuBi...

  78. SwiftyBoy
    Nah, definitely Burchill. Haven't seen Tanya Hide mentioned there yet...

    Burchy got busted for running her I Love Tescos article here last year, straight out of her Times back catalogue, and then something on the Times she'd done for another broadsheet in the last few months.

    Lazy bint.

  79. BTW Swifty
    That doesn't mean Gold hasn't been mentioned in SoS of course... she's got every right to be

  80. Adam Boulton on Sky News is now saying the rumours are running round Westminster that the Torygraph is going to be paying particular attention to the MP couples who are playing the system (The Cooper Balls axis, I imagine, will feature prominently) and also those MPs who have made the most egregious frauds.

    Might be an interesting day.

  81. @BW:

    You're in for a treat then, when you pick up the latest from Strobes...

  82. Splendid SB !
    Right, I'm orf, have a lovely evening

  83. @BW:

    Yep you too, I'm on my way shortly as well, have a good evening all.

  84. Burchill's columns in the Saturday Graun used to make me laugh a lot of the time, but she is a self-satisfied smug moo at the best of times. And what's with her hatefest with ex-Tony? She really has a chip on her shoulder about that one.

  85. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 17:02

    Someone else than Bidisha or Bindel has taken up the task of writing about the sexism of prisons which were designed for men but used on women.

    Me not like, me wants Bid/Bin!

  86. ""Just imagine the foursome, Bunting, Bidisha, Bindel and Burchill. That is true terror."

    They could start a girl band called BuBiBuBi..."

    That is such a painful image in my mind. Just picture it folks, maybe them covering Spice Girls Mumma, *shudders*...

  87. They could start a girl band called BuBiBuBi...

    very clever,,


  88. Enough of this graun feminist Atliners hate fest guys! They are dreadful yes but their male equivalents are no better!

    There are some mens groups especially in the USA who are openly male supremacist. I'm sure their awful. But they are awful because they are supracist and extremist not because they are men. Ok they are not found in the graun (I would welcome their input actually - that really would balance things!)

    The same is true of Bindel et al isn't it?

    I'm sorry if I'm overreacting but its just a gut reaction. You almost seem pleased that they are so awful.

    I'm not I'm pissed off by them.

  89. Now interview between Bindel and a male supremacist - THAT would be instructive.

    Doubt if she'd do it!

  90. Bunting, Bidisha, Bindel and Burchill.

    Two of them are sort of 'blokes', so why not ABBBBA?

  91. Its not because they're women and not because they're feminists, you are right, its because they're extremists.

    It bugs people because the Graun gives very little coverage to extremists on any other issues. So the Graun doesnt accept them as extremists, it thinks they are progressive sisters fighting the good fight, like their fellow sisters in government like Harman. Thats the big issue.

  92. Absolutely they wouldn't give an extremist white man's group a voice would they? They are usually just as nutty. But easily labelled as right wing.

    The graun can't see that Bindel & co are as bad because women were oppressed in the past because they were women. Men were/are oppressed but not because they are/were men, it was/is because they were/are poor.

  93. Evening all

    Enough of this graun feminist Atliners hate fest guys! They are dreadful yes but their male equivalents are no better!

    - I'm with you on that. But it was still a poor effort for anyone who wanted some sort of debate on feminism, no?

  94. Quick pop in at work -- not had a chance to see Bindel/Burchill. Can hardly wait! Would be nice to see a more 'mainstream' view ATL once in awhile. I guess it's somewhat similar to the way the media (US, anyway) act as though all Christians are conservative/fundies. So much easier to paint in stereotype than to present the nuance.

  95. I'm with you on that. But it was still a poor effort for anyone who wanted some sort of debate on feminism, no?

    Maybe the Graun gets more hits that way, maybe this is how they like it, extremist, provocative feminism.

  96. Know what you mean, Jay, it's all about the hits on CiF not the quality of the contribution. I just wonder what they were paid for it ...

  97. That bloody wind it's turned chill now my beloved Acers are really at risk of leaf burn. Sod it the leaf show thus far as been brilliant too.

    Wild deer vanished as they always do - greased timidty really. Still more and more swallows hurtling round the place. Africa to E Yorks always seems a long way to fly to me. But I'm always glad they do.

    @ BeautifulBurnout

    I would not wish to contradict a hard working and delightful non Oxbridge mature student struggle to a brief (an achievemant to be proud of) - and it's really not that important either way but Wiki reports:

    "Denning was born on 23 January 1899 in Whitchurch, Hampshire to Charles Denning, a draper, and his wife Clara Denning (née Thompson)"

    To be honest I had him as Hampshire but I couldn't have told you why - although over the years I spent a lot of time reading many of his judgements. I too much liked his burr when speakin, he could lay it on with a trowel when he wanted!.

    I can well understand why he might be a hero - That libitarion part of me too regards him as such. I always especially loved the way the rest of the legal establishment regarded him as maverick. But as you will see below I have some reservations about finally sainting him (God time flys almost 10 years since he passed)

    The delight of this thread is that you never know where it will perchance take you.

    The oddest of juxtapositions occurr here -a random thought that when push comes to shove Birch/Bind have probably achived less for women than some men and then perchance your post. It containing the RCJ acronym and out of a ragbag of a head pops Alf Denning/Hampshire/Married Womens Rights (Marrried Womens Property Act 1882 - dated only after I looked the full title up))and here we are.

    The libitarian bit of me could not fail to like Dennings championing of the what he saw as the weak against the strong - often the individual against the state (or its various agencies)

    The problem for me as a then active trade unionist was that he would always champion what he saw as the weaker - a small employer against the alleged might of the trade union or worse the blacklegs against the strikers or the non unionist freeloaders against the alleged tyranny of the closed shop.

    I spent many happy hours in debate with other trade unionists about how his mind must work to reach some of the judgements he did.Like him as man I might do but there it had to end.

    We felt that given his background his perspective and understanding of real life for many was inevitably blinkered and was never likely to favour working men.

    He always started from a premise that we knew by the experience of everyday life and that of our fathers and grandfathers was patently and manifestly untrue. And evidenced to the contrary in every life in every factory and pit in the land.

    The legal fiction that a contract of employment is like other contracts one which is freely entered into between equals is plainly absurd.

    Just as he came to change his position on Capital Punishment so later in his career he did start to understand the notion of the injustice of duress in contract law. That said he could never quite make the link with the everyday duress that lack of money imposes on people when they "freely" enter into a contract of employment with the likes of Murdoch et al.

    It has to be said that even those of us who were amused by and quite liked the old sod had to struggle with his part in the Birmingham Six which wiki describes as follows:

    "In 1980, during an appeal by the Birmingham Six (who were later acquitted) Lord Denning judged that the men should be stopped from challenging legal decisions. He listed several reasons for not allowing their appeal:

    Just consider the course of events if their action were to proceed to trial ... If the six men failed it would mean that much time and money and worry would have been expended by many people to no good purpose. If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, 'It cannot be right that these actions should go any further.'"

    I'll just run that past you again -"..........
    If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, 'It cannot be right that these actions should go any further.' [85]

    Pardon Lord Denning? - The appeal is dismissed cos if the men won it would mean that the police are crooks - perhaps I misread perhaps I misheard perhaps I'm just bonkers tell me it again Alfred.

    THINKS-Indeed M'Lord it is an appalling vista from which all right thinking sensible people would recoil.

    Them bloody horsehair wigs that you guys wear to work always seemed a crazy idea to me - there seems to me a danger of overcooked brains.

    Please forgive me if you think I'm taking the piss I did adore the bastard but by god he could stretch the sinews of the minds of mere
    mortals like myself.

    At a personal level his championing of what in civil law is truly the thermonuclear device for a worker - the Mareva injunction (I which I've had launched at me by my last employer) and his passion for the allegedly just tool of equitable estoppel did for me.

    I spent about 8 years at the RJC arguing as a LIP (litigant in person for non lawyers reading this) that said legal instruments were evil and all the more so when placed on clinically depressed person.

    Later I argued that when combined with Order 14 Judgement in Chambers were affront to any idea of a fair trail assured by the ECHR and later the HRA here in UK.

    A lot of restrictions on personal freedom and justice have been around longer than some people think. I was variously at the RJC/IT/EAT/CA from 1995 to about 2004 hence my quip about PTSD whenever I see RJC.

    As with most LIP's I lost and its now all water under the bridge so don't worry I'm not seeking free legal advice.

    Denning - I sure both love and hate the sod. Plainly as he got older he sure got quirky and for that reason I've always had to take reserved position on his sainthood.

    I suppose that what must have brought this rant on is your comment yesterday to the effect that some member of the Judiciary had been akin to a tedious turd. I kind of knew what you meant though I'm not a lawyer and then when today you signaled RJC on a comment you made it must have all come rushing back.

    Crazy world - perhaps they will be letting me back on CiF soon it would make this thread shorter to scroll up and down at least.

    Still it was a good follow on from yesterdays discussions that we were all having about therapy for mental illness

    Very Best Wishes. Hope your family get a dog that all of you enjoy - I'm sure you will.

  98. monkeyshark (on the black/white/gay thread) - LOL

  99. Actually that dustbin button is not an edit button as I first thought - It only gives the power to delete an entire entry ( still worth having I guess)

    The advice from Andy yesterday to use Word and cut and paste is obviously best way forward if ranting a longer piece which needs editing before posting - as mine above did!.

  100. Deano

    Sounds like you had a long and tedious struggle. I am always reminded of the Billy Bragg song Rotting on Remand:

    I stood before the Judge that day
    As he refused me bail
    And I knew that I would spend my time
    Awaiting trial in jail
    I said "There is no justice!"
    As they led me out of the door
    And the Judge said,
    "This isn't a court of justice, son
    This is a court of law."

  101. BB - yeah its a great one so it is.

  102. BTW, Deano, have you been banned from CiF or just put into premod?

  103. "There is no justice, just us"

    Who said this please ?

  104. Evening all!

    Lots of good posts upstream - am going to pick one at random to reply to ... annetan!

    "Now interview between Bindel and a male supremacist - THAT would be instructive.

    "Doubt if she'd do it!"

    Actually I think she'd shred him. Despite today's revolting piece (well OK, and many others too), she's not an idiot and the vast majority - versus a vanishingly small minority - of male supremacists do seem rather thick.

    And by 'male supremacist', I do not (necessarily) mean people who stick up for men's rights. For example, I thought that Frank (MrPikeBishop)'s piece was quite reasonable even if I didn't agree with it in its entirety. No, I mean the sad bastards who think that men are just born superior in every way - or rather that women are inferior in every way. Seems to me that they are trying to assert their superiority because they know they are inadequate.

  105. And btw, one of these male supremacists is the odious Ann Coulter, who has written opinion pieces explaining why women shouldn't have a vote. Despite this, she hasn't taken her own advice to heart and has had some, er, voting irregularities on her own part to explain.

    When we were chatting the other night about John Bolton, one of the linked videos that came up on YouTube was a Coulter interview that I punished myself by watching. Not only is she a simpering fool but she actually described Jews as 'unperfected Christians'. Er, not a good move in the US, Ann. Oh, and her interviewer was Jewish, as I gather....

  106. Hi Thaum

    Hope your day at work was better today! I wasn't working, which is just as well cos I didn't wake up til 12.30 after yesterday's epic car journey!

    Coulter is the sort of person you couldn't make up if you tried really. Vile creature.

  107. @ BB - I honestly don't know what my status is. I don't think I'm yet banned having not even been put officially into premod.

    I think I've just been "hung out to dry for a day or two" as a kind of preliminary warning.At least that's what I hope.

    Truth is I'm guessing - my post button simply won't work in Deano30 but I've had no notice and all my ramblings are still on file.

    I'm quite new to CiF having only got a mobile net connection quite recently so I don't have the history or standing of posters like Hank/Jay/Wooly etc.

    I may well have got up Polly's tits since in recent weeks I've been moderated PDQ whenever I've posted.

    I did add the odd reference to the banning of Hank in some of my attempted stings (all but one of which were gone fairly sharpish).

    But truth be told if reposting something deleted several times is regarded as a big sin then I may have come unstuck. Because just as I am almost incapable of writing Mandelson without adding "uber creep" I could not resist reposting that wonderful GreeenCustardFlinger Finger on Mandelson's piece after it was removed by the mods.

    I also attempted to post it on Polly's piece yesterday and that's when I came unstuck.

    I'm going t give it a day or two and see if they unblock me failing which I'll write to the mods and ask what gives.

    I am sometimes my own worst enemy, as the saying goes.

    The Bragg poem/punchline you kindly shared is well known to LIP's they often get a form of it direct from Judges so I had heard it.

    The last time a judge (he who become LJ Kennedy)
    said it to me I coughingly/loudly said in reply (allegedly under my breath) words to the effect...." right then it's a letter and petition to the Queen to let her know they've changed the name and purpose of Her RCJ and sod it its an action under the Trades Description Act against the Judiciary...".... ( all whilst shuffling together my papers whilst being ushered out of his Chambers)

    I think I read from Hank that you have problems if the post button ....(not sure if he said disappears or just goes dead)

    If I'm banned it won't be any great loss - lots of folks make the same points I do I really just add to the background noise.

    I've enjoyed this site quite a bit but things like an ability to see the accumulated file of posters is a drag since I quite like to get a feel/sense of the positions from which people come.

    Still like many I'm grateful to Montana for establishing it.

  108. Thanks BB - marginally better (no fights with the jack-booted parking nazis, but mostly because they've revoked my right to park on site) but v busy.

    Sounds like you had a well-deserved rest!

    Can't believe Coulter actually believes the shite she spouts - must be doing it for the money. But then again, on the interview, she was so vacuous that you never know.

  109. BB

    Worth a read:


    Anyone else

    Where's martillo?

  110. Where's martillo?

    Dunno, but for some reason that's made me think "maybe a wee glass of port".

  111. @ Bitterweed

    " There is no justice, just us"

    Who said this please ? "

    I've said it loads of times to my kids, my sometime wife and my closest friends - but I don't count cos I'm not famous.


  112. thaumaturge: see you’ve just commented on the “What’s in a name?” thread.


    All other contributions gratefully received.

    I don’t think the moderators all checking this one very closely, to be honest.

    A number of quite suspicious looking posts have slipped in under the wire...

  113. elementary_watson13 May, 2009 21:38

    Annetan, considering the Atliner hate fest: Feminist extremists above the line can be wildly amusing and have me rolling on the floor laughing. A feminist above the line who would take all such notions apart would have me euphorically shouting "Yes! Yes! This is what feminism can be like! This is shows the greatness of that movement!"

    To be honest, the feminists below the line who criticize this stuff have me waving a feminist flag and euphorically agreeing with them. And the feminists here who state they find no words to describe how awful this article was.

  114. Hi andysays,

    Yes, but as I mentioned, I'm only about halfway through the comments! Unfortunately am going to have to leave it for now - tired - but hope to catch up tomorrow, although it may be a vain hope as work is mad. Great thread, though - thanks!

  115. p.s. You should save the suspicious ones - who knows how long they'll last!

  116. @Bitterweed - "ain't no justice, just us" - D'Angelo, "Devil's Pie". Send the Untrusted T-shirt and Crackerjack pencil to the usual address please mate

  117. Yo, pencil on it's way cracker !

    (Sorry, been watching the Wire ;)

  118. CRACKERJACK!!!!


    Sorry you fought the law and the law won, Deano. LIP is not something I would wish on anyone, frankly.

    Thanks for that link, MF - I shall take a look at it.

    Thaum - parking nazis are the worst. I had a run-in with Maidstone District Council recently but then couldn't be bothered to fight it any more and paid up when I realised the fine was far less than the amount of time I was wasting trying to fight it. I should be ashamed of myself really.

    hi andysays, btw. Still enjoying that thread.

    And in other nazi news - I want this girl to be my daughter-in-law:


  119. thaumaturge: does that mean someone (you) has actually spotted them?

    Don’t worry about them being saved; that’s all under control.

    I’m wondering how much longer this thread will be open.

    Trying to work out when to post the punchline.

    Hank: seem to keep missing you.

    Check out the phone booth.

  120. @deano30 - As long as you've still got a post button, mate, you've not been banned. You wouldn't get an email incidentally to tell you that you're in pre-mod, you'd only find out once you tried to post and didn't get the "Your comment has been posted" message.

    Btw, don't get yourself into trouble on my account. I appreciate the support but my fate will be decided once Georgina speaks to the mods tomorrow...

  121. Just got home from work. As far as feminism on Cif, I'd like to see an article from a mainstream feminist on why women need men or giving men their due in some way.

    Again, I think of race relations here in the US and how hard it is sometimes to read articles written by black academics who are in very privileged positions blaming ALL white Americans for things that sometimes aren't even the fault of ANY white people without getting my working-class knickers in a twist. I imagine that must be how it feels for men sometimes when they read extreme feminist views.

  122. Yep, like being preached to about privilege by upper class twits like Harman who've had more privilege than 99% of the country, its just laughable (until it reaches the law books, then the joke ends)...

  123. Hi Montana

    I can't remember who it was, and I wish I'd clipped it, but someone posted on a thread yesterday something about having a section of CiF called CiF Victimhood where all the contributors and commentators who wanted to blame everyone else for the ills of the world could have their own section. Made me laugh so much I had tears running down my face. I will see if I can find it.

  124. Found it!


  125. Saw that, BB, it was in response to poor old Len wasn't it? Made me laugh (-:

  126. CiF Victimhood already exists though -


  127. @ BB

    "Sorry you fought the law and the law won, Deano. LIP is not something I would wish on anyone, frankly."

    It's all part of lifes rich weave - you learn a great deal about yourself going through something like that.

    Interestingly Monkeyfish's reccommendation to you above:

    "Worth a read:


    is pretty much a pondering of the sort of difficult questions I had to ask and answer of myself.

    Really we all like to think that we would cross the street and intervene if we saw a man hitting a woman or any strong body abusing a weaker one.

    But the truth is most of us don't know how we would react in a real situation till we are faced with one.

    Lots of people go to their graves never really knowing what they were made of. At least when I ask myself is there really a moral fibre in your being. Do you have (as we say up North and indeed down South to be fair)any bottle? I can provide some sort of existential answer to my own satisfaction at least.

    You are right no rational soul wants to be a LIP and I most certainly did not choose nor did I relish the role. 9 years took me to the brink of insanity and back (many times)

    It's no coincidence that the law figures so heavily in quite so much literature.

    But then when out of the ether completely unexpectedly a man knocks on your door and hands you a thing called an ex parte Mareva injunction. A thing that not one in hundreds of thousands of my fellow citizens would have any idea of the meaning of - me included.

    To be fair you do get a clue - it's all tied up with a ribbon so you kind guess its a legal thing

    As you read its contents you quickly realise your no longer living in Guardian world.

    The small print sayeth clearly words to the effect

    "you can no longer use your own bank account or dispose of your home or any other assets to feed your family without first providing an affidavit of everything you own and its location and quickly comeing to the RCJ in London to answer before HM Judge in Chambers - lest you face IMPRISIONMENT FOR CONTEMPT written on the duly stamped RJC Summons in block caps."

    Truth is you have no choice but to respond and if like me you have insufficient funds to obtain legal advice and representation then your LIP like it our not.

    Loose the first encounter at RJC and your on for several thousand £ in costs before there can be any question of as trial.

    9 years later and your opponent has spent over £100,000 on legal advice and representation and you've been turned over by several QC's
    and innumerable briefs. - you are bruised and well battered.

    But you do know the answer to that question - will ye yield to this bullying force? You squeek weakly will I fuck...........

    I would never advise anyone to be LIP. As the saying goes only a fool (or poor man) is his own lawyer.

    The only satisfaction I had is that it was impossible to extract £100,000+ in costs from me cos as the affidavit I filled in in response to that Mareva 9 years previously made clear I never had it to start with!!

  128. @ Hank

    I wouldn't dream of getting myself into trouble on your account. My posts were like a number of others simple expressions of disquiet with a mention of your name.

    Comment is Free dear friend I doubt I would pay to read you but I have enjoyed many of your posts.

  129. ¡Jesus, Maria y todos los Santos! Why? Why did I do it? I knew it would be dire, I should've known better. Would someone please tell my why I just read the Bindel/Burchill debacle? Those two are more emotionally immature than the 13 yr old girls at our school, FFS.

  130. @deano30 - fair play to you for your courage and integrity. On the subject of Denning, he disgraced himself as far as the Brum 6 were concerned but he was typical of the establishment mindset which refused to believe that coppers could be corrupt. Even after the Yard had been shown to be rotten to the core by Operation Countryman (if my chronology is correct).

    On the plus side, he did say this about a subject close to my heart:

    "The avoidance of tax may be lawful but it is not yet a moral virtue."

    He was certainly more likely than other Law Lords to find evasion rather than avoidance in many of the more byzantine tax cases, particularly where corporations and big 4 firms were involved.

  131. I know I said that Cif tries to play the plebs, but some plebs are just too easily playable.

    It's like watching a lot of sheep running around bleating.

    {Meanwhile back at Cif}: "Now let's try three dogs barking at the same time. C'mon, it'll drive them wild!"

  132. Crossed posts, deano, the "courage and integrity" referred to your litigation not your defence of my once good name (-;

  133. @ Montana

    You have it in sentence dear sister

    ". I imagine that must be how it feels for men sometimes when they read extreme feminist views."

  134. Deano

    That sucks. My uncle, who used to own a catering business before he retired (started out as a lad selling hotdogs off a borrowed van, I might add) found himself in a similar position when the taxman was convinced he was robbing them. He wasn't. But it took him ages to get it sorted, including his MP asking a question in the House about it eventually.

  135. Now, over to Flip Bird who is waiting ringside with Julie Bindelfly.

    Flip: "Julie, I understand you have something you want to share with the audience and folks at home?

    Bindelfly: "That's right, Flip. I just want those misogynistic morons to know that dykes rule {boos and hisses from the crowd} and that men are utter tossers {crowd goes crazy with indignation}."

    Flip: "Thanks, Julie. Good job we have plenty of security around here. That crowd looks like it wants to tear you apart! Now, let's talk to newly crowned Cifworld Wrestling Foundation Champion, Rightright Palestinianhater. Right, do you have a message for your detractors?"

  136. @ Hank

    "On the plus side, he did say this about a subject close to my heart:

    "The avoidance of tax may be lawful but it is not yet a moral virtue."

    Dear Alfred Denning did indeed say that hence my inability to decide (or at least my unwillingness to say here) whether I would play Albert Pierpoint to his Ruth Ellis had the role ever come my way

  137. Next week on The Jerry Springer Show: Otherwise Intelligent, Educated, Middle Class People Acting Like The Extremely Low IQ Trailer Trash We Normally Have On This Show, In Response To Julie Bindelfly Ringing A Little Bell.

  138. This comment has been removed by the author.

  139. Deano

    Read it. Sounds like he went in to bat for you good and proper :-)

  140. i am really starting to like you Deano,,

  141. 3p4

    He's a good bloke is Deano!

    Liked your participation on the Buddhism thread, btw. I am a little out of my depth when it comes to the scientific proof as to cause and effect though so I ducked out at that point. Interesting though.

  142. "i am really starting to like you Deano"

    "He's a good bloke is Deano!"

    I'm reserving judgement until he's settled his account with HankScorpio Publications tbh.(-;

    Hasta manana, y'all!

  143. deano30, you say you found a decent, hard-working, go-the-extra-mile, justice-seeking MP, who fought for your PERSONAL cause for years, and then never voted for him?

    And people wonder why Parliament is full of corrupt slimeballs?

  144. If MrPinchy just got banned, what are the chances HankScorpio will be reinstated under this Cif "amnesty"?

  145. Meanwhile, what has changed under the new Cif Moderation policy?

    Have you been given permission to eat cake?

  146. What do we want?

    A new moderation policy!

    When do we want it?


    Cplif: "Our final offer is a condescending moderation article, our supercilious participation in the following thread, and the continuance of the old moderation policy. And we'll throw in JayReilly's reinstatement after making him grovel for it and accept a month in Cplif Limbo as punishment."

    Plebs: "Okay, we'll take it!"

    "It was like the Poll Tax Riots all over again" said a source sitting on a wall, sucking a piece of straw.

  147. @ BB

    Cheers - I don't mind you referring to or extrapolating from my deleted comment in any private conversation you may have with Hank and kind. But it's not something I would normally ever say in a public place.

    I know you will understand that I could not and would not in any way want to potentially embarrass anyone who had indeed batted like a complete team of 11 on my behalf.

    @ 3p4 thank you for your kind thought but let us all remember Matilda......

    Oh Matlilda Matilda
    Matilda ate jam
    Matilda ate jelly
    Matilda went home with a pain her....
    Don't be mistaken
    Don't be misled
    Matilda went home with a pain her head
    For sadly Matilda ate too much bread.

    Thus it may be that what you think I said I never said.

    I hope you understand that in writing about my circumstances I did not wish for sympathy or anything like that.

    In real terms I know my life aint been that tough. I was never called upon to be a Blair Peach or Steve Biko or any of the thousands of others who paid a lot more for their ideas then I did.

    As I commented elsewhere my father used to know many miners who pissed themselves, through fear of the dark and the underground and of their imagined understanding of what it must be like to buried alive.

    They wet themselves every day of their working lives when they got in a cage to go underground.

    For me that was real courage I think if I'd have had to that I might well have cracked.

  148. I was placed in premod for four weeks, I suppose (that is, I was never informed) for protesting the government's policy of locking people up for 28 days without charge or explanation.

    I've written a letter to Cplif saying that if they reinstate me at the end of the four weeks, I promise not to do it again.

    Meanwhile, I have two nuts for sale. Hardly used.

  149. BB I am a little out of my depth when it comes to the scientific proof as to cause and effect though so I ducked out at that point.

    there aint none
    emperors clothes,,you got all there is to get and the other dudes are just confusing themselves
    buddha is for peasants,,like me,,there is no "buddhism" there was just buddha,,there are just buddhas,,but if you know their name they are probably no longer a buddha,,

    enough,,it really is the most pointless subject for words without face to face,,and even then it must be the inner face of your experience,,walk walk walk and if you use wheels they are almost certainly on a wagon,, a bandwagon,

    but not a banned wagon
    I hope you understand that in writing about my circumstances I did not wish for sympathy or anything like that.

    i hope you understand that i am always honoured when people share their honesty with me,, i will not pick any particular words you have written here but overall you have a tone without artifice

    to my ears

    course it helps that i am a dog dude and you a dog dude,,and Acers,,totally relate,,

  150. @ Bill

    I don't follow your reasoning - from what I said it should have been clear that I said that I thought there was at least one non slime ball MP in Parliament even though I personally didn't vote for him. What's the problem there?

    Your far too old and long toothed not to know that a MP is a representative of all irrespective of the vote cast by the individual.

    I couldn't vote for him in any internal party elections because when Blair came in my conscience and beliefs took me out. In any event I would not have voted for anyone against him so I was always down for an abstention. That and a commitment to always speak honestly about how I found him to be.

    When I rail against NuLabour I do so from a position of never having voted for them or Thatcher who preceded them.

    Last time I voted for a winner it was Wilson.

    I did make sure that all of my family who were on the electoral role were fully aware of both my opinion of the Man and that of the leader of his party. I would never seek to unduly influence my kids or sometime wife so I don't know how in the event they voted.

    True when I was a Labour Party Activist I would have sought to influence their vote - as I did of everyone when I was out on the knocker.

    But that's a long time ago.

    If you live, as I do these days, an itinerants lifestyle you have no vote cos you ain't on the electoral register. Don't mean that you don't have a voice though!

  151. My MP doesn't represent me.

  152. @ HankScorpio

    "I appreciate the support but my fate will be decided once Georgina speaks to the mods tomorrow..."

    Best of luck for the morrow.

    Shit look at the time - for Acer lovers everywhere catch you tomorrow if you post after I've gone.


  153. deano30, My reasoning is this...

    Political party affiliation or approval should have nothing to do with your vote. You just don't have that luxury in these days of across-the-board Parliamentary scumbaginess and self-seeking.

    You may have had, or thought you had, or been able to argue that you had that luxury, if not duty, back when Labour did what it still says on the tin, but you haven't had it since Thatcher neutered the unions, at least, probably longer, possibly ever.

    An MP such as you describe MUST be voted for, at least by all in his constituency who have firsthand knowledge of his principles and history.

    Otherwise, they, at least, should keep quiet on the subject of said general Parliamentary scumbaginess, which thy, in spirit, if not in deed, helped to create.

    What it sounds to me you are saying is this:

    I was helped by a decent, non self-serving MP, who went out of his way to try to get justice for me. I then rewarded his efforts by never voting for him, due purely to my having a desire to be able to say I never voted for the Blair government. Oh, that the MP had informed you at your first meeting that he would never help you, on similarly self-serving, but ostensibly "principled" grounds.

    Meanwhile, there will never be anything resembling "democracy" in this world until all political parties are abolished. It is just entirely unreasonable to assume that 100% of voters are seriously voting for who they see as being the best candidate. You are exhibit A for the case against assuming that.

  154. 3pforummmmmmm14 May, 2009 02:23

    well bill is correct that it would be (imo) more sensible to vote for this particular mp,,
    however bill was able to phrase his insights in a particularly harsh and bitter prose,,this may not be your intention bill but its my ears,,

    i have considered all politicians and systems a fraud and have never voted ,,ever,,but i have lived with a morality and attitude that made me self governing and productive within my community,,
    i am exhibit A for my own case

  155. 3pforummmmmmm: "however bill was able to phrase his insights in a particularly harsh and bitter prose,,this may not be your intention bill but its my ears,,"

    It was neither my intention nor the result of my efforts. It's, as you say, your prejudiced ears. Perhaps you should just read the words and take them at face value. Their apparent harshness may then give way to an air of honesty and straight-talking.

  156. And that's what Yorkshiremen prefer, isn't it?

  157. Are there any other kind of ears?