30 June 2010

30/06/10

Completely forgot the attribution.  Sorry.

Lost time is never found again.
Benjamin Franklin

236 comments:

  1. Helloooooooooo

    Where is everyone?!

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  2. Reporting for duty, Dott; have just been pricing up electrical rotating cake stands.

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  3. And how much are they Peter?

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  4. Interestingly, they start at about £30, rising with the addition of mirror-ball outside finishes and number of tiers.

    But I've found an alternative solution for a tenner.

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  5. Circle of cardboard and a second hand power drill?

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  6. Nothing so crude. Did you know there are battery-powered rotating display stands for large model cars?

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  7. Morning all

    Peter
    may sound banale but what do you want a rotating cake stand for?

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  8. Standing on so you can screw in a light bulb?

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  9. Dott

    my suspicions are that the mirror ball feature is a clue.... ;)

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  10. Ah, standing on so you can screw in a mirror ball....

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  11. How about a cake conveyer belt? It works for sushi.

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  12. Morning all. Just popping in to say hi. Been away on my hols to the ''Heritage coast'' for a few days. Decided I want to become an artist and relocate to Runswick Bay - except I cant paint.

    Anyway the hols were great - first time away for two years as had to cancel last year when got ill at the last minute - and the sun shone the whole time.

    Bit ruined somewhat by the fuckwittery this government is visiting upon us day by day now - which I became aware of when I accidently saw a Guardian front page in the co-op - and having to visit the minor injuries unit as burned my mouth on a cappucino (how upper middle class is that - bet Bru cant beat that with her tails of champagne and opera!) and cant eat or drink anything hot for five days - but other than that had a great time.

    Am now greeted with further financial meltdown and economies on a 'cliff edge'. Oh joy!

    One thought I have been turning over in my mind is how can governments NOT afford to provide all the stuff they have been providing for years but CAN afford to carry on massive QE? The rumour mill is that the coalition are about to crank up the printing presses again as are the Fed. So we cannot afford schools, hospitals or welfare but we can afford to funnel even more money into the private banking system?

    Cant quite get my head around this yet but it seems to me that those tin foil hat types are coming closer and closer to seeming less like mad men and more like tellers of the truth!

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  13. On second thoughts, forget that... you'd never be able to screw in a mirrorball whilst stood on a conveyer belt.

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  14. need I say more than John "peterj" Travolta....a bit precarious mind....doing those moves on a rotating cake thingy.......

    PCC
    glad you had a good time despite the burns...ouch!

    "Cant quite get my head around this yet.."

    In the end it's nothing about logic or doing the right thing for the masses it's about protecting the personal interests of a minority

    SK
    editorial on the police......

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  15. Hi princess - yes its getting unbelievably insane isn't it?

    What is sooooooooooo frustrating is they seem to be getting away with it.

    Hope your mouth gets better soon!

    Dot, speedkermit ????? LOL!

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  16. Speedkermit/gandolfo,

    ". you'd never be able to screw in a mirrorball whilst stood on a conveyer belt. "

    ".a bit precarious mind....doing those moves on a rotating cake thingy......."

    Of course, there's only one song it could be done to...

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  17. Morning all.

    Paul, I've left a comment for you on yesterday's thread.

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  18. 13th Duke -

    Just read your piece on UT2 - Excellent! ;)

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  19. Forget the stand, how do you bake a rotating cake?

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  20. In the microwave Spike, obviously!

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  21. @Paul
    anyone who comes out with the word 'bint' is obviously both sexist and racist, though I will concede there is an outside possibility that you are just extreamly thick.

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  22. @fariha

    If you're English-speaking, at least. It simply means girl or daughter in Arabic.

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  23. And racist? No. It's not much used these days, but used to be applied to any woman. Just an Arabic word brought back by soldiers, like "shufti". I think it became sexist and derogatory mainly because soldiers often tend to be sexist and derogatory.

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  24. in arabic it may mean daughter but as we are conversing in english should'ent we use the english interpretation, afterall it seems unlikely paul was refering to montana as his daughter. and i believe the term when originaly brought home by our boys was applied to foreign women.

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  25. in common usage in the uk it meant foreign prostitute, i wonder if paul was aware of that when he used it.

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  26. "i wonder if paul was aware of that when he used it. "

    If someone uses a "racist" word without knowing it is one, are they racist?

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  27. an odd choice, though maybe not, paul would not be the first man to deal this way with an argument from women he does not like.

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  28. interesting Dot, if someone uses a pointlessly vague sentence without knowing it, does that make them stupid?

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  29. And if calling a woman a bint as an Ad Hom is sexist, is calling a man a cock under the same circumstances sexist?

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  30. I don't know fariha, if someone uses a deliberately vague insult are they being insulting ;-)

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  31. fariha hello and welcome/welcome back to UT. I hope you enjoy your time here.

    bint - Yet another of those words of my youth that were, in my experience, once used as often in affectionate as in abusive terms.

    Plainly Paul had no affectionate intent in mind!

    The OED has it thus:

    bint n colloq.

    A girl or woman (usu. derog.); girl-friend.

    The term was in common use by British servicemen in Egypt and neighbouring countries in the wars of 1914-18 and 1939-45.

    1855 R. F. BURTON Pers. Narr. Pilgrimage to Meccah I. v. 121 ‘Allah! upon Allah! O daughter!’ cry the by-standers, when the obstinate ‘bint’ of sixty years seizes their hands. 1888 C. M. DOUGHTY Trav. Arabia Deserta I. viii. 231 Hirfa sighed for motherhood: she had been these two years with an husband and was yet bint, as the nomads say, ‘in her girlhood’. Ibid. xiii. 374 The homesick Beduin bint. 1919 Athenæum 25 July 664/2 Bint, girl. 1930 E. RAYMOND Jesting Army I. ii. 24 Damned jolly little bint, that one, too! 1938 ‘R. HYDE’ Godwits Fly xi. 169 Fancy turning in a smoke for a bint. 1941 New Statesman 30 Aug. (list of war slang) BintGirl friend. 1942 N. STREATFEILD Table for Six 151 I'd like her to grow up a lush bint. 1946 Penguin New Writing XXVIII. 175 What are the bints like round here, Tom? 1958 K. AMIS I like it Here xiii. 162 As the R.A.F. friend would have put it, you could never tell with these foreign bints."

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  32. possibly, though in a different way.
    also there is a fairly convincing argument that how sexist or racist a statement is is dependent to some extent on how much influence or power those attitues are likely to have over the victim.

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  33. "...in common usage in the uk it meant foreign prostitute....."

    I have no practical experience of prostitutes or the language of the sex trade but I would never have known/understood that meaning of the word "bint".

    I don't consider myself a sheltered guy in any way and I have worked all over the UK and mixed with all sorts of manual workers.

    You learn something new everyday on UT perhaps the next edition of the OED will have a revised extended definition. The one quoted above is from the second edition (1989) and currently stands unrevised.

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  34. "also there is a fairly convincing argument that how sexist or racist a statement is is dependent to some extent on how much influence or power those attitues are likely to have over the victim. "

    I think I get your drift, but I also lean toward the opinion that that power can be increased by how the victim chooses to interpret the statement..

    For example, was the charming gentleman who yelled an insult at me from a white van this morning really commenting on me personally, or was he merely trying to get a laugh from his (I'm sure) equally charming friend, for which I was the easiest available target?

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  35. gandolfo: I'm not touching that thread with a bargepool. Getting personal shit from the same old half-dozen boring bastards who read 1984 in sixth-form and have been seeing spooks ever since. No thanks

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  36. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say....."in a certain kind of person its usage in the uk meant foreign prostitute..."

    I do after all consider myself to be part of the common people...but I'm not the fractious sort so not to worry.

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  37. Welcome 3 visitors from Eygpt - anybody is welcome to comment here on UT

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  38. Dot,
    you obviously have a sweet and generous nature. no it was not 'you personaly' but is that not the point, you as a person were publicly reduced to the negative steriotype he had in his mind (i'm useing the term mind liberaly here).

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  39. inmate, i was refering to common usage not common people, though i take the point, i understand most people would no more use language like that than fly to the moon.

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  40. Even the hereditary enemy...

    SK did reply to you on pensions yesterday about 16.30

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  41. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  42. (deleted above for want of a crucial missing word.)

    "... you as a person were publicly reduced to the negative steriotype he had in his mind ..."

    Had I been walking down the street behind Dott the person reduced to the negative stereotype would have been the guy shouting from the white van. I might have even given his companion the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm back to 3p4's observation of last year..to the effect that .."an insult thrown down ain't an insult till to you pick it up and turn it into one". (Sorry if I misquote you 3p4)

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  43. inmate,
    3p4's comment, how sweet. i know one too, each day is a new dawn, equally vacuous, almost as shite.

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  44. anyhoo, thanks for the conversations, though dont really like you, not ever going to be friends, got work to do.

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  45. Hello fariha

    The one who will give you links like this! if you are naughty.

    It's OK, just to an obscure corner of the FT.

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  46. Bye fariha - I knew we had something in common.

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  47. "Each dawn is a new day" or "each day a new dawn
    " would have made more sense than ."...each day is a new dawn...." to little old me .............ah this beloved confusing/evolving language of ours.

    dog walking calls.

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  48. When I was child in the 60s and a teen in the 70s, "bint" was still a word you heard from time to time.

    I absolutely never heard it used to mean prostitute. It was always more an old-fashioned synonym for "bird", "chick", etc., so for me, it's only derogatory to the same extent as "bird" or "totty".

    In my experience, the Arabic or Indian origins of words didn't carry any negative value. "To have a shufti", for instance, or "a cup of char" were simply slang.

    So "bint", like "negro" or "indian" applied to native Americans would have become derogatory because of the way it was used, not because of its original sense.

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  49. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  50. fariha/deano,

    Anyone whose opinion I care about would've had Deano's reaction anyway, therefore, water off a duck (or Dotterel!)'s back.

    Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would be nice to everyone else, but it's not an ideal world and taking offence at every little thing doesn't really help: better in many cases to ignore it so it doesn't have the desired effect.

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  51. fariha

    I,m neither racist,sexist nor extremely thick.And unless you are extremely thick yourself you would understand that the same words can have very different meanings over different cultures,races,religions and social groups..And if they are used offensively you have to judge the level of offense in the context of the 'relationship' they are being used.So unless you are in possession of the full facts you,re really in no position to judge.Even if the word in this case was not being used affectionately which deano was right to acknowledge was the case.

    Did you post on CIF under the name 'Elly Miranda' by any chance ?

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  52. fariha

    @Paul
    anyone who comes out with the word 'bint' is obviously both sexist and racist, though I will concede there is an outside possibility that you are just extreamly thick.

    Sorry i forgot to cut,n,paste the above post from you which is what i was responding too.

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  53. Ah, knew there was a quote for it:

    "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

    Eleanor Roosevelt

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  54. Dotterel

    "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

    Very true.

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  55. Afternoon all

    Like those two quotes from the venerable 3p4 and Eleanor Roosevelt

    Speedkermit, if you are still around, serious policing question: what is the difference in time and paperwork between taking a mouthy kid round to his parents' for a formal telling-off in front of them and nicking them for a s.5 POA?

    Do you think the latter is worthwhile compared to the former?

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  56. 'I,m neither racist,sexist nor extremely thick.And unless you are extremely thick yourself you would understand that the same words can have very different meanings over different cultures,races,religions and social groups..And if they are used offensively you have to judge the level of offense in the context of the 'relationship' they are being used.So unless you are in possession of the full facts you,re really in no position to judge.'
    ok nigger, point taken.

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  57. fariha

    What on earth is your problem? Why do you feel you need to interfere in an argument between two people you neither know nor have been invited to comment on?

    Is your life really so boring and meaningless that its highpoint is to come onto a random website and take issue with a person you don't know from Adam on a use of language that you personally would find offensive it was addressed to you?

    You seriously need to take stock of your life if that is the case. And try and find something more positive and valuable to do with it.

    And your last comment is vile, no matter what culture, race, religious or social group you might perceive yourself to be from.

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  58. bb
    you may all be delicate flowers, but if you’re going to dole it out, should you not be able to take it as well.

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  59. BB & SpeedKermit

    Inspector Gadget thinks he may be falling in love with Teresa May ,who is abolishing Police Targets..

    My personal belief is that many forces will continue to insist that we deliver this performance bullshit, because for a generation now, that’s all our senior leaders have been selected and trained for. They were solely promoted on the basis of their slavish devotion to the target, they no nothing else and are certainly not policemen.
    Our new mission is to expose the forces who ignore the Home Secretary on these very pages.
    Use the comments section and give us your forces name. Here is the first from West Yorkshire. ETC

    Looks like all submissions for improving the Cops by those above Inspector ( or whatever) should be filed in the bin ?

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  60. fariha

    It is nothing to do with doling out and taking it. It is to do with common decency, something that you clearly have no truck with. And you are behaving like a 7 yr old in the play ground: "Well, that boy over there, he started it, Miss, so I was just joining in". Sorry. Not an excuse.

    Life is so much better when you dole out decency instead of vitriol and hatred - because what you give out is what you get back. I know this to be a fact.

    No need for you to rack your brains wondering why your own life is shite if all you are doing is making life shite for others, in other words...

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  61. Shome contradiction there with Ken Clarke talking of introducing payment by results for companies and charities re-programming offenders.

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  62. The whole idea of incentivising offender rehabilitation fills me with dread, to be honest. How many corners will be cut and results fiddled to make it look like they are doing better than they actually are, so they can get the bonuses?

    Also, how to quantify rehabilitation? Is a heroin addict who moves to weed as a way of keeping clean "rehabilitated", given that weed is also an illegal substance?

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  63. frog

    Perhaps we should all carry out a personal value audit - how much is each of us worth to various 'correctional' busnesses /charities.

    We can develope a points system - so many each for antisocial behaviour, being sick or disabled, unemployed or in receipt of housing benefit. Living in a deprived area with no chance of a job could score bonus points.

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  64. Leni - I think I am into the minus figures already by virtue of doing a job that annoys the fuck out of em...

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  65. BB

    No need to feel ignored my dear. There will soon be a correctional institution for the likes of you. I think they are generally known as re-education facilities

    .

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  66. bb
    what a prissy bourgeois git you are, thanks for the concern though, weirdly my life is pritty good right now.

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  67. #No need for you to rack your brains wondering why your own life is shite if all you are doing is making life shite for others, in other words...#

    Hang on BB...you have no idea what her life is like and other than in fairy stories and Buddhist narratives the above quote has little currency or value. Either that or some right fuckin nasty twats I've come across over the years are doing a hell of a job of disguising their inner torment.

    The idea that people will get what's coming to them is something we tell to children to make the world seem a better, fairer place..and the poor and destitute get told to give them hope...along with "your reward will not be in this life", it's the most pernicious,socially stifling and status preserving mantra out there. It's what religion's for..to keep people in their fuckin place

    #The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.#..etc etc

    and before you tell me Buddhism's a philosophy or some such..just look how many millions of people it's kept in check, kept in poverty, kept in misery, kept in ignorance over the centuries...and the payback...a few little fuzzy feel-good aphorisms and a slight glimmer of hope as the curtain falls on a life of misery..fuck that.

    I think fariha's comment was bang on..might have hesitated myself but he's hardly got any grounds for complaint...and if he does, she can just hit him with the 'context thing'.

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  68. "....you may all be delicate flowers, but if you’re going to dole it out, should you not be able to take it as well...."

    Too true fariha personally I see myself as a Dionaea muscipula but I wouldn't dare speak for the rest of UT.

    But I would point out that.................for the Venus fly trap:

    "..The holes in the meshwork allow small prey to escape, presumably because the benefit that would be obtained from them would be less than the cost of digesting them. If the prey is too small and escapes, the trap will reopen within 12 hours. If the prey moves around in the trap, it tightens and digestion begins more quickly....

    There is plenty of 'giving and taking' on UT, you should call around on a Friday night. It's sometimes positively caustic, but we do try to be generous to newcomers.

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  69. Monkeyfish

    Wrong.

    Buddhism is the absolute anti-thesis of keeping people in their place. It came about as a response to Brahmanism and the caste system.

    As for Buddhism keeping people in poverty - again, I would like to know more precisely where or what you are referring to. Because, like anything else, it is not the religion (or philosophy) itself that has ever kept anyone in poverty, but the way in which people have manipulated it, as a useful tool for their own economic ends.

    As for a life of misery, being miserable is optional. You can be poor, ill, destitute and still be happy. In the same way you can have everything you think you want in life and still be miserable. Misery is a state of mind, not a condition.

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  70. BB

    Thanks for your support but honestly there,s no need.Best not to get involved:-)

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  71. Monkeyfish

    Ooh really did hit a nerve didn,t i sweetheart?

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  72. Oh, and in my reply to fariha - which I will avoid doing from now on seeing as she thinks of me as a "prissy bourgeous git" I said "you" rather than "one". Only bourgeous gits would say "one" in the context, but "one" is what one meant. I was commenting on her life. I have no idea who the hell she is. I have an idea of the kind of person she is now though.

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  73. wasn't commenting on her life. Feck.

    Anyhoo - the concept that showing decency to one another is "prissy and bourgeous" is just a sad, tired excuse people use for being an asshole to other people for no good reason.

    Keep on thinking that. I am sure you will be very happy with your life.

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  74. Paul

    TBH, I thought "bint" was out of order. I was going to keep out of it because it wasn't my onions.

    But when random people turn up and start throwing the word "nigger" around, whatever right-on working-class feminist credentials they believe they might be able to flash on here, I won't put up with it.

    Or "Paki", either *coughs pointedly*

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  75. my point, pbg is you seem to choose rather selectively which racist terms are 'simply awful' and which arrn't. i guess its just too bad for the sisters then that the ones involving women are ok with you. though maybe its just where your coming from, pbg, time for my meditation, peace and love

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  76. Shame - it was just getting exciting and I have to go now. Got a prissy, bourgeous dinner to go to with friends, so I need to get my upper-class glad rags and cut-glass accent out for an airing.

    I'll prolly be drunk when I get back though, so I will no doubt look in, swear at some of you, accuse others of you of being imaginary or Doppelgangers and have a big headache in the morning...

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  77. @fariha

    If you really don't understand the difference between calling someone you know "bint" (which you were mistaken in thinking meant "prostitute") and calling someone you're arguing with and obviously don't like "nigger", you should really re-examine the whole concept of offensiveness.

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  78. Yeah, fariha. Whatevs.

    Byeeeee!

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  79. #Ooh really did hit a nerve didn,t i sweetheart?#

    No Paul. You really didn't sunshine.
    What 'nerve' is it you think you hit?
    As I recall, you told me I was 'full of shit'...like to elaborate?

    Then you told me I wasn't funny..but then had to kinda backtrack when it turned out you had found Mavis sublime.

    You also implied that I'd said Hermione was full of shit which was a misreading of my post but never mind..as I said above, on reading some of your stuff, I just figured I was dealing with a bit of a thick twat..an impression strengthened by similar opinions from other posters. So tell me about this 'nerve' you think you've hit.

    If you think you've hit on a foolproof tactic by insulting somebody and then exclaiming "ooh I've hit on a bit of a nerve' when they repay you in kind then you undoubtedly are a bit of a simpleton..is that it, is that your game?..if not..please explain.

    The really weird thing for me though is that you should choose to play the knight in shining armour for Hermione. I think she's OK..pretty funny sometimes even..incisive..witty. In fact it's all a bit incongruous that, given her wit, her protector should turn out to be such a cack-handed incompetent. You're much more Don Quixote than the Lancelot you suppose yourself to be.

    PS

    Hope I haven't 'hit any nerves'.

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  80. BB

    Fair enough.But as i repeatedly keep saying when certain people keep bring up my one-off car crash moment the context i used the word 'Paki' was -

    ''Paki bwoi'-these White people call you Paki bwoi just like they call me nigger.'And you and me are working all night whist the White folks are sleeping''etc etc.All mad crazy stuff but i was calling him Paki and myself Nigger in the context of how -in my deranged state-i thought White people viewed us both.

    And even though i was in the midst of havig a car crash moment i did apologize to heyhabib straight away -several times in fact-for saying that word.

    I,m not condoning my behaviour that night and i apologized to everyone for all the terrible things i,d said.And i did explain to people the extreme stress i was under,that it was out of character etc etc.

    As a barrister you must understand the difference in context between my use of the word 'paki' during my 'car crash moment and fariiha,s use of the word nigger today.Both unacceptable -YES.But were they used in the same or similar context-NO.

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  81. paki too, are you in the bnp?

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  82. oh yeah, google 'bint' it does mean prostitute.

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  83. paul,
    you are hilarious, its ok for you but not for others, are you serious?

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  84. i see now the problem, its the 'context' in which im using the n word, you've missunderstood me, i used it in the 'you are obviously an imature fuckwit' context.

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  85. @fariha

    Yep, done that.

    The term entered the British lexicon during the occupation of Egypt at the end of the nineteenth century and stems, adopted by British soldiers to mean "girlfriend" or "bit on the side". It is used as a derogatory slang word in the United Kingdom meaning woman or girl. Its register varies from that of the harsher bitch to an only slightly derogatory, almost affectionate, term for a young woman, the latter being more commonly associated with the West Midlands. The term was used in British armed forces and the London area synonymously with bird in its slang usage (and sometimes brass) from at least the 1950s. The term has also famously been used in the classic film Monty Python and the Holy Grail, in which the Lady of the Lake is referred to as a "moistened bint", and in the phrase "grotty Scots bint" in the "English English" scene of the film Austin Powers in Goldmember.

    Following the Second World War, workers were imported from Yemen to fill the vacancies left in the Tyneside ship-building industry. The term found its way into the Geordie dialect from the late 1940s onwards and is still used to this day. Although the term can be used in a derogatory sense, in general it refers simply to (usually young) females.


    Care to provide a link for the Google reference you found?

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  86. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bint

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  87. "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

    Bill Shakespeare

    Ooh I'm full of quotes today!

    BTW, should've said earlier, by wading in on the insults thing, wasn't making a comment one way or another on the specific use of "bint" yesterday: haven't read the whole thread so I'm in no position to. It seemed to me the conversation had involved to a general one about taking offence, which is where I joined in.

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  88. fariha said...
    oh yeah, google 'bint' it does mean prostitute.

    30 June, 2010 16:35


    My google gives the following top listings for bint - non of which define bint=prostitute !!!

    "Web definitions for bint
    A woman, a girl
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bint - Definition in context

    Search Resultsbint - Definition of bint at YourDictionary.com
    Brit., Slang a girl or woman: usually a term of contempt. Origin: Ar, girl, daughter. bint (bĭnt). noun. Chiefly British & Offensive. A woman or girl. ...
    www.yourdictionary.com/bint - Cached - Similarbint - definition of bint by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus ...
    Slang a derogatory term for girl, woman. [from Arabic, literally: daughter]. Translations. bint [bɪnt] N (Brit) (pej) → tía f (Sp) , tronca f, titi f ...
    www.thefreedictionary.com/bint - Cached - SimilarDefinition of bint? offensive? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
    2 May 2008 ... I looked up the definition of bint, it said: Dictionary: bint (bĭnt) ... Bint Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source ...
    uk.answers.yahoo.com › ... › Words & Wordplay - Cached - Similarbint: Definition from Answers.com
    bint n. Chiefly British & Offensive A woman or girl. [Arabic, daughter.]
    www.answers.com/topic/bint - Cached - SimilarThe Online Slang Dictionary | Definition of bint
    What's the meaning of bint? Find the definition of the slang word here.
    onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/bint - Cached - SimilarUrban Dictionary: bint
    bint - 20 definitions - English slang for a whore or bitch. Similar to a tart.
    www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bint - Cached - Similar"


    I share Spike's enquiry????

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  89. @fariha

    Well, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the non-peer-reviewed Urban Dictionary is a paragon of accuracy.

    1. English slang for a whore or bitch. Similar to a tart.

    I think you're getting confused about British and US usage. "Whore" and "bitch", while unpleasant terms for many, don't necessarily mean "prostitute" in the US. "Hey, dog, that's my ho'!" means "She's my girlfriend". And tart is also used to mean "bird".

    2. The Arab meaning of the word "woman" but often used as a sexist term towards women.

    3. A colloquial word for slag, tart, bimbo, a girl not well liked, etc.


    So where does your "prostitute" come in? If you'd said "slut" on the basis of the Urban Dictionary, then you might have an argument (although I've never heard "bint" used even in that way).

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  90. Deano,

    Playing devil's advocate:

    "bint - 20 definitions - English slang for a whore or bitch"

    Whore = prostitute?

    Personally I prefer insults with some creativity: my favourite being Monty Python's "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!"

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  91. read your own post? 'bint - 20 definitions - English slang for a whore or bitch. Similar to a tart.'

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  92. whore dosent necessarily mean prostitue. this is just silly

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  93. i think whore does mean prostitute, there isen't really any way round that one.

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  94. (from two of my posts ago)

    Involved? Evolved, numbnuts!

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  95. I grew up in East London where 'stupid bint' is used in the same way as 'stupid cow','stupid mare' etc.And before people go all rad fem on me the women had plenty of things they called the men.

    This fariha person -who i suspect once posted on CIF as Elly Miranda (might be wrong though)is just shit-stirring.

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  96. Ah a lexicographical/common parlance dispute - whoopee!

    The most common usage of 'bint' in the UK appears to be represented here. it was mildly derogatory and never used as a specific word for prostitutes as far as I'm aware.

    I heard it used during the 50s and early 60s but have rarely heard it used since. Except amongst Arabic speakers, obviously, who appear to use it in a variety if ways, depending upon who/where they are and who/what they are talking about but as I'm not an expert I won't elucidate as someone is bound to shoot me down.

    Now - donning my best cut glass accent - Dahlings, a large g 'n t is calling me to the balcony. So you lot go on arguing and bitching, I'm having a loll in the sun. Laters.

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  97. "Hey, dog, that's my ho'!" means "She's my girlfriend". And tart is also used to mean "bird".
    are we to believe your sufficiently down with the ghetto kids to justify such embarrassing stereotyping, Jesus spike.

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  98. Hi All--Interesting discussion.

    Without wading into the original scrap, the wife of the Emir of Qatar, Her Highness Sheikha Mozah Bint Nasser Al Missned preumably does not mind the name.

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  99. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

    Sticks and stones.. but randoms on the web....

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  100. Dott - yea just been wading through the twenty subtle differences of meaning in the urban dictionary.

    It seems a bint can mean anything from Mother Teresa's sister to a syphilitic ridden harridan.

    In fairness to Paul I don't think he was inviting us to think that Montana was a syphilitic riddled harridan.

    fariha not every "tart" is a prostitute. Some ladies just enjoy lusty liaisons with strangers and wouldn't dream of asking for money.

    I must say that you have an extraordinary confidenece in your own ability to read through ambiguity at a first pass. Some might consider resorting to the urban dictionary a desperate ploy. You must be aware of Bertrand Russell thought of so called experts....

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  101. @fariha

    OK, you're a troll. We all get it.

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  102. 'the wife of the Emir of Qatar, Her Highness Sheikha Mozah Bint Nasser Al Missned preumably does not mind the name.'
    presumerbaly thats because it has its original arab meaning of daughter.
    oh no im begining to think you lot are a bit thick. bummer

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  103. turm - Alice in wonderland......

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  104. Fariha -

    if bint is, as you say, a word used to mean whore or bitch, then thats news to me. However language does change and there may well be groups who have taken up the word to use in that way. If so its probably a quite recent phenomena.

    But is it really worth having a prolonged argument about on such a glorious afternoon?

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  105. anyhoo, i am a bad girl and really should stop, you lot just make it so easy, its not my fault. btw all this attention and ill end up with a naughty habit.

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  106. Hey Deanno, You'd like 'Alice in Sunderland' - Bryan Talbot. It's reet guid. Should we have a Graphic Novel section on the UTR?

    fariha said...
    ...Jesus spike.


    He's not Jesus, he's a very naughty boy!

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  107. Spike

    A wee trollette perhaps? Perhaps doing a trollette work experience on the UT?

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  108. §
    anyhoo, i am a bad girl and really should stop, you lot just make it so easy, its not my fault. btw all this attention and ill end up with a naughty habit.
    §

    Ah, no use of the shift key. Always a sign of the one handed typist!

    L8rs Pals : )

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  109. fariha--As it says on the top of this page; " Plain thuggish and thick"

    The word obviously is ambiguous, so it's going to mean different things to different people. Please, by all means, feel free to take offense if that is your wish. It is not my intent though. Just like to explore meanings and usage of the language, as do others here.

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  110. @Sheff

    A sort of Junior Apprentice without the maturity and charisma.

    @turm

    I used to be a very naughty boy. Unfortunately that was long ago. I'm now a very naughty middle-aged man.

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  111. Sheff - an interesting run around.

    I'll be fucked if some hip/hop artist contemporary studies wordsmith is going to tell me that words, of my youth in Yorkshire, now have a different monopolised meaning are thus no longer available to me and mine.

    I will always have to respectfully say fuck off ignorant tosser.

    There is an arrogance about some that I find distasteful and that applies irrespective of gender/faith/colour/nationality.

    Saw that Hank was up for the next Sheffield do but didn't see a reply from MF??

    PCC Glad you had a good holiday sorry about the scalding.

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  112. I don't want to get involved in the etymology and use of 'bint', although for me it's always had negative connotations and of course exclusively refers to females. However, it would probably be stretching things to attribute any positive, light-hearted, humourous, or ironic characteristics to the phrase Sorry babe you,ve just exposed yourself for the ignorant bint you really are.

    I think the intent is clear. Or as Paul would say, the 'context'.

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  113. Deano

    Saw that Hank was up for the next Sheffield do but didn't see a reply from MF??

    Yes, he did suggest it. I hope he comes. Perhaps MF doesn't think we're interesting enough to make the trek. He obviously doesn't know about how we party up here!

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  114. We might note that the urban dictionary definition of bint is of recent origins (2005) and that it was provided:

    "Bint English slang for a whore or bitch. Similar to a tart.
    "Look...you can't proclaim yourself king just because some moistend bint lobbed a scimitar at you." -Monty Python, Holy Grail
    by SnottyIrishman Aug 2, 2005"


    I'm not always too bothered about what that expery of etymology, SnottyIrishman, thinks of the correct usage of the Queens.

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  115. scherfig

    ''I think the intent is clear. Or as Paul would say, the 'context'. ''

    You cheeky minx!

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  116. Scherf

    "...Even if the word in this case was not being used affectionately which deano was right to acknowledge was the case...." {14.13 above}

    Paul himself acknowledged that he was not using bint in the affectionate sense.

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  117. Paul

    #monkeyfish

    Whatever!#

    I really have struck a nerve haven't I?

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  118. Sheff - perhaps MF missed Hank's suggestion that they both meet at the next Sheffield get together?

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  119. Ah there you are Monkeyfish - did you clock Hank's suggestion that you and he might meet at the next UT gettogether in Sheffield date TBA later in the year...?

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  120. So it's all the fault of Monty Python? Might've known it....bloody trouble makers.

    Although I don't quite see how the snottyirishman (not you scherf), got from "moistened bint" to whore, bitch and tart. Says more about him really.

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  121. "....and of course exclusively refers to females...

    I don't know Scherf - bitch on the face of it would look like a term exclusively used to refer to females but in the old polari language of the gay community "bitch" meant an "effeminate or passive gay man"

    Who knows as turminder suggested above all very alice in wonderland stuff

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  122. #Search Resultsbint - Definition of bint at YourDictionary.com
    Brit., Slang a girl or woman: usually a term of contempt.#

    FFS...so you're all OK with a term of contempt for a woman, but god forbid that it might have been intended as 'prostitute'. That's a bit judgemental, no? Some of you aren't too good at this being a liberal game are you?

    This whole fuckin argument is just part of a process where you're loading words with way too much power..you're making taking offence obligatory. Taking offence on others' behalf is not the fuckin 11th commandment whatever you've been reading at the Guardian.

    This 'N' word business is the endpoint of a ridiculous process whereby the great liberal struggles have devolved into the attempt to restrict and control common usage as a means of societal change.

    It doesn't fuckin work. Right so use of nigger amongst whites has become unacceptable (rightly so) concurrent with and as a consequence of a degree of integration and assimilation. So what happens?..people of all races and cultures turn their attention to the next load of incomers..as the tolerance of your neighbours and familiar faces of whatever colour increases, as it does through daily contact and social intercourse, but the basic xenophobia, the fear of the new and unknown remains. But what the fuck?..at least 'progressive' society can celebrate a small victory, claim to have improved lives..by..erm..changing the vocabulary?...all thought of changing society through tangible material change having been ditched along with the working class and a commitment to full employment.

    Fuck solidarity..I'm an individual with an identity. And I care so much about my fellow citizen that I changed the fuckin dictionary for them. Tell you what..how about 'immigrant' becomes 'guest'? How about asylum seeker becomes 'welcome guest'? "Miss!..Miss!..Johnny used the 'I word'". It's a whole big stupid liberal conceit to disguise the fact that nothing's gonna change.

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  123. I think you're getting confused about British and US usage. "Whore" and "bitch", while unpleasant terms for many, don't necessarily mean "prostitute" in the US. "Hey, dog, that's my ho'!" means "She's my girlfriend". And tart is also used to mean "bird".

    Well, since I'm the ignorant bint in question, I'm not going to weigh in on that discussion. But the above is a bit disingenuous. "Whore" and "ho" don't necessarily imply in the US that a woman actually accepts money for sexual favours, but there is absolutely never any use for "whore" ("ho" is just a variant of "whore") that is not extremely negative.

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  124. Sheff - shouldn't that be party down here since MF is to the North of you??

    Right that's me done I'm off shopping.

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  125. @MF

    so you're all OK with a term of contempt for a woman, but god forbid that it might have been intended as 'prostitute'

    From my first post on the subject.

    I absolutely never heard it used to mean prostitute. It was always more an old-fashioned synonym for "bird", "chick", etc., so for me, it's only derogatory to the same extent as "bird" or "totty".

    Derogatory. Do try and keep up.

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  126. Bintje or Bint A variety of potato, first cross-bred in 1905, named after Bintje Jansma (1888-1976), former pupil of Kornelis Lieuwes de Vries (1854-1929) the teacher who first cross-bred the variety. It is a popular kind of potato to this day in the Netherlands as it is suitable for frying into chips.

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  127. I've never encountered a positive use for the word whore, not that is definitive of course.

    Tart on the other hand has both positive (affectionate) and negative (abusive) uses in my experience.

    The OED has an interesting take on the latest evolution thus:

    OED DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2006


    tart, n.

    tart with a heart n. (also tart with a heart of gold and variants) a (type of) woman (freq. a prostitute) portrayed or characterized as apparently disreputable or unprincipled but intrinsically good-hearted, sensitive, or compassionate, esp. viewed as a stock or clichéd dramatic character.

    1961 Post-Standard (Syracuse, N.Y.) 8 Sept. 16/2 The ‘Never on Sunday’ tart with a heart as she has been called in the movieMelinda Mercourimade this film in 1955, toward the beginning of her career. 1977 Washington Post (Nexis) 25 Oct. B6 Instead of well-heeled insiders, Wilson's characters are seedy outsiders, dominated by the old tart-with-the-heart-of-gold theme. 1989 K. NEWMAN Night Mayor (1990) (BNC) 68 Here's another recurrent characterisation... The tart with a heart. 2005 Guardian (Nexis) 16 July (Guide section) 71 And while Elizabeth Shue as the hooker sharing his final binge is at times dangerously close to being the tart with a heart, she avoids being overshadowed by Cage's performance.



    but I wouldn't want to ressurect the exchanges between Spike and Montana......on the subject

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  128. #Derogatory. Do try and keep up.#

    I know..however, you seem to have completely missed (do try and keep up) that I was drawing attention to the fact that some of you seemed disturbed that it might have meant prostitute..as though the distinction carried a higher level of pejorative intent. Obviously you're liberalism only carries you all so far. I'm perfectly happy that you may have no particular issue with sexworkers but then why do you take the term to be so much worse than a common or garden contemptuous term for any woman.

    Like I say, if you wanna try and play at liberalism and relativism, then play properly. You don't seem to know the rules.There is-so I'm assured-no identity that's inherently superior to any other..so how can the identity 'prostitute' carry any more (or less) stigma than a derogatory term for the identity 'woman'? In fact..how can 'prostitute' carry any negative connotations..surely any term that carries the sense prostitute can't be derogatory in that sense?

    You want to try relativism...learn the rules.

    and try reading the post next time?

    ..or are you going to tell me that the whole thing was inspired by a real desire to establish a definitive etymology of 'bint'?

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  129. #Ah there you are Monkeyfish - did you clock Hank's suggestion that you and he might meet at the next UT gettogether in Sheffield date TBA later in the year...?#

    yeah..I did miss that. When were you thinking of? I fancy a trip down south.

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  130. Fancy that...

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/printable/9099/

    #Well, that is one Bristol City Council budget meeting Lib Dem Shirley Brown won’t forget in a hurry. Back in February 2009, there she was, listening to a proposal from Conservative councillor Jay Jethwa to cut funding for a local project for ‘black and minority ethnic’ groups. Jethwa’s idea for saving money was not to Brown’s liking. After all, Brown, the Lib Dem’s first black councillor, had supported the project – the Legacy Commission – since its establishment in 2008. In Brown’s eyes the project was important; it commemorated the abolition of slavery. But for Jethwa the Legacy Commission was a ‘futile’, ‘politically correct’ attempt to ‘right historic wrongs’. Plus it cost money.

    Then something terrible happened. Brown, angry and upset, addressed Jethwa, an Asian woman, by saying: ‘In our culture we have a word for you, a word which many in our city would understand, and that’s “coconut”.’ That’s right, something terrible came in the form of that fruity noun, ‘coconut’, a word used in this context to imply that Jethwa is black on the outside but white on the inside - although her skin is dark, her thinking is very much that of the white status quo. With that single utterance, that single incantation – ‘coconut’ – Brown had sealed her fate. This week, after over a year’s worth of investigations, both internal and criminal, Brown was found guilty of ‘racial harassment’, given a 12-month conditional discharge, and ordered to pay £620 in costs.#

    []

    Let’s be under no illusions. When Brown called Jethwa a ‘coconut’, she was being abusive. But this wasn’t just any old abuse. If Brown had just wanted to call her a name, there are plenty that are far ruder. No, Brown wanted to abuse her politically. She wanted to suggest that Jethwa, her political opponent, was, in effect, a minority mouthpiece for majority interests, a Tory Trojan horse for politically correct times. There was intent here, of course, but that’s the thing about arguments that matter – participants intend to hurt the other. They intend to win, not to agree.

    So just because Jethwa took great offence – albeit in retrospect, given that she only heard what was said when footage was played back to her – why should that make Brown’s action criminal? How did someone taking offence become the index of what is appropriate? Offence or distress or alarm ought not to be legal markers of what can and cannot be said in public. They are unavoidable consequences of passionate, inflamed argument. Polite disagreement is not always possible if an argument is genuinely consequential. As Brown said in her defence last year, ‘The issue of equalities funding is one that I care passionately about and I was furious at the Conservative proposition to make massive cuts in this area.’#


    So..can Snoop say coconut?

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  131. @MF

    I was simply contesting the troll's claim that bint meant "whore". No value judgement involved. So yes, I actually was establishing the etymology and usages of "bint". Read back and you'll see. Nothing like a nice bit of philology.

    Of course, having at least minimal social skills, I am conscious of the fact that the average woman would be more offended to be called a "whore" than a "bird".

    For me, the other person's perception is quite important. Not for you?

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  132. monkeyfish--The natives here in western Canada have a word similar to the term 'coconut' used by Brown. When they wish to condemn other natives for seeming to act too 'white' or nontraditional, will call them 'apples'. Red outside, white in.

    BTW, having only read the word 'bint', and not heard it used in speech here, I was genuinely curious as to it's meaning and origins. Hopefully that's relativistic and liberalistic enough for you.

    Yours in sublime thickness,

    Boudi

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  133. tbh honest MF, I was more interested in the lexicographical aspects and how language use changes. Plus I'm not up for an argument tonight - it's too bloody hot and i can't be bothered.

    Having said that - snoops an arsehole and as I said on the Bindel groove to da beat thread,

    "my instinct would be to shoot him on sight. Fuck him and his music."

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  134. MF - I enjoyed that read. I wish I could have been part of the defence.


    ...no no she wasn't saying she was black on the outside she was saying she was hairy all over...and white on the inside.

    I fucking loved it. Language on the loose poetry in motion, there really are some class practitioners.

    There is no date yet but Hank has indicated he's up for the next one and hopes to see you there too.

    I guess the Sheff et al will canvass dates when BW is back from Cornwall and others are back online.

    I look forward to the event and buying you a jar or so.

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  135. So..can Snoop say coconut?

    snoop or anyone for that matter can say whatever they friggin like as far as I'm concerned, it's up to them whether they can defend their choice of language if someone chooses to question it...

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  136. #Of course, having at least minimal social skills, I am conscious of the fact that the average woman would be more offended to be called a "whore" than a "bird".#

    ..and should they be?..you don't say..but really, if you want to start off down this whole road then you have to accept that if they do take greater offence then it's simply due to their latent antipathy toward sex workers and they should be educated out out this trap..it's a form of discrimination. It's a logical consequence of using groundless liberal principles to examine such matters.

    Alternatively, maybe the 'average woman' takes more offence because she senses greater derogatory intent on the part of the speaker/ writer?..which kinda means that offence should be taken provided you are able to sufficiently interpret the motivation behind the one giving (or maybe not giving..who knows?) offence?

    and then you say...

    #For me, the other person's perception is quite important. Not for you?#

    Which other person? The offender or the offended? As you can see, both are relevant..well they might be for you..but thankfully, I'm not a fuckin liberal. I tend to think I can sense when to take offence ie when offence was intended..and that's the be all and end all. You might be the same..but if you are then don't try using specious and unjustifiable liberal arguments when it suits you..especially as they are inconsistent and lead down some very strange roads.

    ..and I don't think she's a troll at all. I hope she sticks around.

    #So yes, I actually was establishing the etymology and usages of "bint".#

    Why? When did that become so important? And why not accept the urban dictionary sense? Don't you think it's probably a better guide to common usage than the others? You knockin the urban dictionary..bit of a value laden dismissal..no? bit judgemental?

    Fuckin nightmare being a liberal isn't it? So stop being one..or if you aren't a liberal, stop using their arguments just when it suits you.

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  137. "She wanted to suggest that Jethwa, her political opponent, was, in effect, a minority mouthpiece for majority interests, a Tory Trojan horse for politically correct times. There was intent here, of course, but that’s the thing about arguments that matter – participants intend to hurt the other. They intend to win, not to agree."

    A perceptive take on events, at least I thought so.

    I sometimes think that some of my UT friends ain't comfortable with the notion of intent.

    I am a fan of Montana but I think she got Spike wrong in their prostitution debate because she didn't consider the issue of intent in Spikes use of language.

    On my reading what she attributed to him was not supported by his use of language and certainly not from what I could sense of his intent.

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  138. Any intellectualisation in any discussion on the subject of 'Freedom of Speech'is pretty pointless.For in the real-nonPC- world the goal posts have a habit of shifting.So many people are understandably confused as to what is and what isn,t offensive.And in a socially and increasingly culturally fragmented society like Britain the task of setting down ground rules that are equally applied to all is near as damnit impossible.For even within a group of relativley like-minded people it is extremely likely that misunderstandings can and will occur.With the added problem that most of us have a problem ever admitting we,re wrong.

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  139. A thoughtful post Paul - but at my time of life I have no difficulty with resolving my confusions.......it's all to do with that word intent.

    If I didn't intend to cause offence I have no difficulty with an apology, if I did wild fucking horses couldn't drag one from me.

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  140. #Er - talking about Gay Pride and beer, Antwerp last weekend hosted a Gay Pride rally followed by a two-day beer festival in open air on the Groenplaats.#

    talking about peanut butter and inner tubes, I once saw an inner tube smothered in peanut butter..I'd have posted this on CIf but I wasn't in Belgium when I saw it...WTF is that about?

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  141. #A thoughtful post Paul - but at my time of life I have no difficulty with resolving my confusions.......it's all to do with that word intent.#

    No..it works two ways..at least the first time..if you have no intent but manage to give offence anyway and are informed of this then the 'recipient' is surely free to assume intent if it continues. The two strikes and you're deliberately offensive rule.

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  142. yes monkeyfish after the first strike you should be more aware so as not to be construed or misconstrued as being offensive...i.e use terminology/words that don't have various interpretations......

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  143. For the record and the interest of our casual lurkers, this is what started a shitstorm on prostitution:

    "25 June, 2010 21:54
    Spike said...
    @La Rit

    When I lived in London in the 70s, I knew a Maltese lady who was drop-dead beautiful and well-educated.
    She had a home in Battersea and worked from a flat on Oxford Street formerly occupied by Michael Caine. She earned an absolute fortune (her minimum rate was £100 in 1976), was buying land in Malta and planned to retire there at 30.
    Once I accompanied her to the bank before she flew to Malta and she asked me to carry £5,000 pounds for her, enough to buy a small house in those days. I was extremely nervous, but it all went OK. I suppose I was rather naive. I don't know what would have happened if the Bill had stopped us.
    Apart from being slightly besotted at age 19, I admired her control of her life. She seemed very happy with the way it was going.

    Of course, this is anecdotal and reflects the situation of only a few sex workers, but such women do exist......"


    Let's just think that if instead of:

    "Of course, this is anecdotal and reflects the situation of only a few sex workers, but such women do exist" (bold my emphasis)

    Spike had had one less beer and written:

    Of course, this is anecdotal and reflects the situation of only a few sex workers, but such women may exist.


    What's in a word between comrades - the end of the revolution.

    FWIW I thought A42 made the most perceptive comment on the Montana/Spike dialogue.

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  144. Had a pupil back in the 60's whose sirname was Bint!

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  145. "The two strikes and you're deliberately offensive rule."

    A rule or an invention of imaginitive writing class.

    Not convinced that I'll yield my definition or practice of intent to a could be Tory toss spittle

    You are two thirds the way down the road of three strikes and your out ....'cos we've got your knackers in a nylon bag.

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  146. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  147. deleted 'cos it didn't make sense to its author

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  148. Folks seem a bit eggy this evening, so I'm going to do sing a bit of Dead Kennedys to cheer you all up...

    [sings 'Holiday In Cambodia']

    Did you enjoy that?

    BB - bloody hell, that's an entire essay! (but I'll give you the Reader's Digest treatment) Depends on the kid and whether it looks like his parents would give a tuppenny fart if he was brought home by the fuzz or not. Also, good practice is to warn them first, but if you've done that it would be a pretty hollow threat not to follow it up. You can always dish out a PND - I personally would move mountains to avoid presenting them to a disinterested desk sergeant only to be castigated for having delicate ears. Plus, you'd probably have to call their parents out anyway as appropriate adults, so why not cut out the middle man. Whatever happened to a clip round the ear eh?

    Anyway, if you haven't guessed yet, the correct answer is 'it entirely depends on the circumstances', which is as good a cop out as any. Do you have a particular instance in mind?

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  149. BB - are you around?

    Just had some great news. One of the Iranian boys who was staying with me has been given LTR - at last!! When he heard he went straight to the job centre to get an NI number and find a job.

    And I'm toasting one small act of mercy that has given him his life back..

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  150. Too true about the edginess SK everwhere seems to be the same at the moment, don't know if it the weather or the government but a lot of people seem to be on a hair trigger.

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  151. To weigh in on the great debate, "bird" and "bint" can often be more offensive than "whore" or "cunt". The latter two tend to be used because you've pissed someone off (often with justification - ie they needed to be called out on something) but the former two are completely dismissive.

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  152. Kermit - I am obliged by my own rhetoric to say a belated welcome to UT.

    I invite you to recognise that the vast majority (and 99.99998472339% of of the decent folk of Yorkshire + or - the odd thou) have discomfort with the issue of the Queen's shilling.

    You have taken it. It will forever colour my view of the space in which you stand.

    Your children, like mine can be forgiven their fathers if they know the enemy

    "..Anyway, if you haven't guessed yet, the correct answer is 'it entirely depends on the circumstances', which is as good a cop out as any. Do you have a particular instance in mind?.."

    good wishes for your enquiry.

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  153. Sheff - next time you see him tell him a tramp in E Yorks toasted his good news too.

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  154. frog2:

    "Inspector Gadget thinks he may be falling in love with Teresa May ,who is abolishing Police Targets.."

    ""My personal belief is that many forces will continue to insist that we deliver this performance bullshit, because for a generation now, that’s all our senior leaders have been selected and trained for. They were solely promoted on the basis of their slavish devotion to the target, they no nothing else and are certainly not policemen. Our new mission is to expose the forces who ignore the Home Secretary on these very pages.""

    Wow, this guy really isn't long for the blogosphere. They'll let you attack the law all you want, but woe betide you attack the higher-ups...

    But anyway, May will undoubtedly be popular among the rank and file for abolishing targets, but it's not like we haven't been here before. What happens is targets go out of the window and the police do what the hell they please (in many cases, very little), then ten years later it is realised that they are totally unaccountable so they get reimposed in certain areas, gradually creeping back to every area of police responsibility. The rollercoaster that is 'police discretion'.

    Another example of the endless waxing and waning of criminal justice policy was Brixton. Blacks searched indiscriminately, said blacks riot, public inquiry conducted, discretion re-fettered by means of the requirement for 'reasonable suspicion'. Fifteen years later, reasonable suspicion flushed down the toilet courtesy of s.44 of the Terrorism Act 2000. No doubt it will be symbolically repealed in the very near future.

    Personally, I'm not sure whether unleashing the police on a discretion jamboree will be enough to make them forget that their pay and conditions are going to be eroded with no concomitant right to strike, but we'll see.

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  155. Speedy

    But anyway, May will undoubtedly be popular among the rank and file for abolishing targets,

    Just wait till they hear how many jobs will be going - they won't be so enamoured then.

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  156. inmateD30:

    "Kermit - I am obliged by my own rhetoric to say a belated welcome to UT."

    No-one likes to be inconsistent.

    "I invite you to recognise that the vast majority (and 99.99998472339% of of the decent folk of Yorkshire + or - the odd thou) have discomfort with the issue of the Queen's shilling."

    Thanks for the invitation. I'm surprised I haven't been burnt out of my house by now. My neighbours must be inviting me to their BBQs out of fear.

    "You have taken it. It will forever colour my view of the space in which you stand."

    Your not the only one. Hank had some colourful things to say the other night. He hasn't been back yet. Must have had an embolism.

    "Your children, like mine can be forgiven their fathers if they know the enemy"

    The twin enemies of my children are bedtime and cabbage, and other than scrawling on the livingroom walls with felt-tip pen, they have little to be forgiven for.

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  157. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  158. Sheffpixie:

    "Just wait till they hear how many jobs will be going - they won't be so enamoured then."

    There's the small matter of 16000 PCSOs before anyone who works for a living will be worried.

    btw - give my regards to your lodger, it must be a huge weight off. Does that count as 'taking work home'? ;)

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  159. " ...they have little to be forgiven for..."


    Hope your reading young Nap - a wee while ago I suggested that the answer to the enquiry of where now the man stood in relationship to the sins of the fathers was......



    instructive.

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  160. According to a leaked Treasury Report it is estimated that up to 600,000 public and 700,000 private sector jobs will be lost between now and 2015 as a dircet result of the Budget.

    But it is hoped that around 2.5 million private sector jobs will be created in the same period because of ConLib economic policy.

    Of course what the report didn,t say was that most of the lost jobs will be skilled whilst many of the new jobs will be low paid.

    The deskilling of Britain continues apace and within a generation most working class people will probably be either cooking hamburgers,
    or stuck on workfare programmes.

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  161. "..There's the small matter of 16000 PCSOs before anyone who works for a living will be worried..."

    Doubt it young sir, Frederick Winslow Taylor will not be turned back


    Deskilling is part of the piss of life.

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  162. speedy - they didn't know...they'd have sacked me if they did.

    When they fail people they don't consider (or care about) the results - destitution and homelessness. Don't seem to care that having hundreds of (mainly) young men milling about on the streets with nothing to do might create problems of the sort that the likes of you are left to deal with. Its a crap system.

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  163. How very fucking cryptic

    If that was me you had in mind - it was not
    my intention to be cryptic.

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  164. That is above and beyond Sheff, very brave of you.

    Congratulations to your lodger.

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  165. It's shit when there's no football on isn't it? I'm feeling it now.

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  166. inmateD30:

    "Doubt it young sir, Frederick Winslow Taylor will not be turned back. Deskilling is part of the piss of life."

    Considering a PCSO is on four fifths of the pay of a PC, with only one fifth of the powers and responsibilities, coupled with the fact that they are held in open contempt by the public, I'm pretty sure that Taylor would think you were a complete fruitloop.

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  167. at least I have the dogs for a walk to take

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  168. Considering a PCSO is on four fifths of the pay of a PC, with only one fifth of the powers and responsibilities,

    Bloody hell speedy, I had no idea it was that bad. You're right about the public attitude though.

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  169. "speedy - they didn't know...they'd have sacked me if they did."

    Total respect. Incidentally, what would they have objected to exactly?

    "When they fail people they don't consider (or care about) the results - destitution and homelessness. Don't seem to care that having hundreds of (mainly) young men milling about on the streets with nothing to do might create problems of the sort that the likes of you are left to deal with. Its a crap system."

    Genuine question. Forgive me for not being fully spammed up on your role at UKBA, but by 'they' don't you mean 'we'? Surely you aren't creating the problems that you feel obliged to remedy? If that was the case of course, then you'd redressing the balance (which is pretty admirable), but surely the best way to help asylum seekers would be to do another job?

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  170. "Bloody hell speedy, I had no idea it was that bad. You're right about the public attitude though."

    That's why I snort coffee through my nose whenever anybody mentions 'policing on the cheap'. The public get neither policing nor cheapness.

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  171. French municipal cops can, and do, strike.

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  172. Jenn

    It was good fun and i met some lovely people who just happened to find themselves in extremis. My house was like the united nations sometimes, it was certainly no penance. I moved to a one bedroom flat in April so am on my own now. I miss them.

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  173. ".... I'm pretty sure that Taylor would think you were a complete fruitloop. "

    Starnge to tell our kid ..............teachers and nurses and doctors and lawyers and all sorts of assorted tossers and govt advisers would tell the same yarn.............but some would think yhem all wrong.

    I was onetime a senior professional public servant before I became a tedium on UT. I have some idea of what I speak .....

    Prepare for your retirement - but for fucks sake don't let it slip at the BBQ how much your pension is.


    I could change your neighbours opinion of you. And Hank could do it better. Arrogance in a gent of years is simp-ly -not wise our kid. You may yet have a charge on your educators.

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  174. speedkermit

    Haven,t read whole thread so don,t know whether you,ve already answered this.But is it right that PCSO,s have no power of arrest?.And are extremely limited in what they can do if someone they are holding 'kicks off' whilst they are waiting for a 'real' policeman to arrive.

    Also what,s the main difference between a 'Special' and a PCS0.Or are they in effect the same.

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  175. speedkermit - if you take nothing from the day's thread understand this:

    at the end of Frederick Winslow Taylor's(Quaker) life he couldn't look his fellow man in the eye.

    If the Police College teld you different - I believe they lied.

    And thus your learning is incomplete

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  176. inmateD30:

    "Starnge to tell our kid ..............teachers and nurses and doctors and lawyers and all sorts of assorted tossers and govt advisers would tell the same yarn.............but some would think yhem all wrong."

    Have you stopped for even one millisecond to consider the role of public opinion in all this?

    "I was onetime a senior professional public servant before I became a tedium on UT. I have some idea of what I speak ....."

    Yeah, your lot are certainly for the bonfire.

    "Prepare for your retirement - but for fucks sake don't let it slip at the BBQ how much your pension is."

    I pay £294.37 into my pension every month, damn right it should be gold-plated.

    "I could change your neighbours opinion of you. And Hank could do it better. Arrogance in a gent of years is simp-ly -not wise our kid. You may yet have a charge on your educators."

    Lol, I can imagine how they'd react to a couple of Wolfie Smith's holding forth about class war! If Hank is so bloody persuasive then how come we have a Coalition? An over-inflated sense of your own worth - pretty much the OED definition of 'arrogance' I would suggest.

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  177. Paul:

    "Haven,t read whole thread so don,t know whether you,ve already answered this.But is it right that PCSO,s have no power of arrest?.And are extremely limited in what they can do if someone they are holding 'kicks off' whilst they are waiting for a 'real' policeman to arrive."

    They have civilian powers of arrest, but that's no different to the public the serve. Despite this, they are actually discouraged from exercising it because it supposedly takes them away from their core remit, which is 'reassurance' (whatever that means). If they were going to be stood around in custody suites all the time they might as well be bobbies. The Home Office grants them the ability to 'detain someone for up to half an hour for the police to arrive, but out lot aren't even permitted to do that. They can issue fixed penalty notices, but if the miscreant refuses to accept it or give their details, they're back to square one basically.

    "Also what,s the main difference between a 'Special' and a PCS0.Or are they in effect the same."

    A special has all the powers of a regualr officer, but a fraction of the training, hence the expression 'it's like having a dog and barking yourself'. Not surprisingly, the Tories big plan is to increase their numbers by a factor of three. Some are excellent, but all too many are utterly unsuitable - there isn't much of a required standard other than a lack of a criminal record. They don't even have to perform a fitness test.

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  178. Sheff

    really glad for you friend, and great admiration for sticking to what you believe is right.

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  179. Kermit - I'm a tramp in a field in E Yorks. You can't have a fraid of me. Arrogance is something I use to help put my boots on.

    I try to be beyond your angst. It's the learning of the generations.

    I have no sense of worth my policed friend - if I get to my final rest without the assist of your crass OTT language I shall be well pleased.

    I'll extend you one more thrash of your circumstance - lets see how you go brother.

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  180. sppedkermit

    Cheers for that.

    So what we are likey to see is a reduction in police officers as a result of budget cuts.Increasing numbers of those remaing police officers tied up in police stations etc filling forms.An increase in 'pretend' police to reassure the public.Who the public view with contempt.And against this backdrop we are entering a period of austerity where an increase in social unrest and crime is a distinct possibility.And if things do kick off the 'thin blue 'line could well be stretched to breaking point.Not very re- assuring to the public when you look at it that way.!!!

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  181. frog2:

    "French municipal cops can, and do, strike."

    Here's good video about why the right of UK police to strike was taken away...

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  182. Sorry meant speedkermit!

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  183. Evenin' all...

    Paul, I thought you were disingenuous in your apology, as I told you last time, now I think you're an outright liar:

    "i said crap like Paki bwoi,these white people call you paki bwoi,they call you paki and me nigger.Why is it that you and me are still working and all these White folks are sleeping"

    That is absolutely not what you said.

    You lost an argument and attacked me personally, hoping to get a reaction.

    I think another has already identified you as liar. I add cause to the claim.

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  184. "I pay £294.37 into my pension every month, damn right it should be gold-plated"


    Kerm our kid if that's 6% of your salary you ain't doing bad young sir.

    The price of gold plating is quite another question

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  185. inmateD30:

    "I have no sense of worth my policed friend - if I get to my final rest without the assist of your crass OTT language I shall be well pleased."

    Well let's not lose sight of who decided to have a pop a complete stranger and his kids, but if it's a long and peaceful life we all want then I'm happy with that. I'm pragmatic. I could do a Blakelock tomorrow and Hank could dance on my grave - for whatever satisfaction it would give him - but it's certainly lot my style. Take it easy.

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  186. Hello, I'm back. My internet connection is back off. I am guessing Duke has gone to bed, but I wanted to ask him what he knows about organised crime in Glasgow.

    There was an intersting piece in today's Herald about how the Glasgow crime families have over 300 'front' companies in the city alone, from nail bars and tannig salons to used car dealerships

    I intend to write about this, my own observations and critiscism of things I see everyday.

    Here is the link (how do you embed)
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/crime-courts/police-open-new-front-in-the-war-against-crime-lords-1.1038202

    From my own observations it seems that crime and money laundering is blatantly obvious, yet the uniformed police don't seem to do much. Speedkermit, do you know about how much they focus on undecover work. I mean I am a total amateur and I could probably blow half the organised crime going on here.
    I am guessing the police have to build up a case with concrete evidence?

    Frnakly, I think these gangs are scum, preying on already vulnerable people, destroying communites.

    Also I am itnerested in the social problems of the city, and the growth of 'yuppie flats' and gated communities amid the poverty.

    Also, the isddue of the security industrty, land acqusitions and construction. There are man redevlopments of these said yuppie flats. I am guessing there are many backhanders, and security contractors for these building sites- which I would assume are crime fronts.

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  187. internet is not 'back off',- back on actually!

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  188. inmateD30:

    "Kerm our kid if that's 6% of your salary you ain't doing bad young sir."

    It's 11% actually, soon to be 13.5% if Mother Theresa gets her way - Little-Known Fact Of The Day.

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  189. habib

    In the cold light of day i absolutely remember saying that.If you,ve got a script you,ll see that is when i revealed my own ethnicity.But i was absolutely wrong to use the P word in whatever context and i did apologize several times.So how is that disingenuous?Also when i had a later misunderstanding with TURMINDER both Montana and scherig raised the matter again-telling me how much i,d upset you.So i offerred to leave UT and you did come back and told me to stick around.

    Also Habib i remember lashing out at everyone the night of my 'car crash'.I was a madman-guilty as charged And i remember saying some far worse things to other people than to you.And most of all i took responsibility and apologized to everyone involved-including you.

    What do you want from me now?Do you want me to apologize ?Let me know what i can do to help bury this matter once and for all?

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  190. I never brought this matter up, Paul, you know full well that you have - again and again, but if you're going to bring it up and describe it in the lying manner you have, I'm going to have a few words to say.

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  191. Habib - good to see you my alma mater Lancaster kid

    Stop fucking arseing about ....put up or shu up is the only message that makes sense.

    You and Paul need to think............................................perhaps me reader would be betyter informed if I gave chapter and verse

    thus:

    deano can't stand that Bru tart cos of: Bru's nasty note dated 14/11/09 @ 17.25......

    then folk can make them own mind up.

    regards to two.







    Bru's nasty note dated 14/11/09 @ 17.25

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  192. kerm - I'm happy to be learned stay in in touch

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  193. habib

    After my car crash moment it came up again after Montana and scherfig mentioned it when i had a clash with montana on cif after a misunderstanding with turminder over the N word.You need to check the threads cos i,m not lying.I swear on my mothers life.

    I don,t want to argue with you anymore.Instead of words HABIB you need to come back with proof to support your allegations.

    I take full responsibility for what i did on my car crash night.And i,m genuinely sorry for upsetting you and everyone else who was involved that night.

    But you need to let me know what i,ve done since to make you so angry with me.OK we had a disagreement recently where we both got heated.But from what Montana has said during the build up to that you,ve become increasingly angry with me for comments you,ve interpreted as being anti-Muslim.

    It,s up to you.We either sort this out or we don,t.It,s your call.You need to be more precise about all the things i,ve said that have made you so angry.

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  194. "Well let's not lose sight of who decided to have a pop a complete stranger and his kids

    We will come back to this Kerm - I don't pop at the innocent


    I simply don't.

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