Our own little corner of Stewart
Just as a warning, these new threads of mine wont be getting any better - my boss is always on the prowl in the morning so its a rather rushed job.
morning - so, me and james were a bit premature talking about the c-bomb yesterday then.used to have louis saha in my FL team. people laughed. i did rather well. why's he holding soup?
I think he's advertising Campbell's meatballs, Pip. Not quite a work of art on the scale of some of the things MOntana puts up, but it has a certain cheap charm...I cant get my head round "Phil", i just think of Phil Mitchell, i cant reconcile it with the Superwoman/Cheeky librarian from your CIF photo. I'm sorry. Pip sounds more suitable and is easy to type. Can we come to an agreement on "Pip"?
................argh.it seems to have taken anyway, go on then.will simply reiterate favourite angela brazil quote:"it sounds like the nasty part of an orange"you could always call me sir, you know. heh heh.
Philippa, Fantasy football teams. For about a decade me and my mates used to compete against each other but what was more important was who had the best team name- some classics we had:-Sporting Lesbian-Bayern Bru-Leavemyarsealona-Jesmond Lynam (was one of mine as I lived in Jesmond, Newcastle at the time)-Arthur Fowlers Christmas Club (you have to be of a certain age and remember Eastenders)- Multiple Scoregasms
Pip it is then. I cant even remember who started Pip, it might have been Kiz rather than James. Sky News is always on the screens at work, the shameless scum have not stopped looping the footage of the poor liddle armed Commandos being attacked by stick wielding aid workers.
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Jay,the Israeli excuses reminds me of Lieutenant Colonel Pienaar, the Police commander in charge of the Sharpeville massacre's excuse:"My car was struck by a stone. If they do these things, they must learn their lesson the hard way."Never ceases to amaze me how timid and meek armed to the fucking teeth security forces are.
Morning DukeI also liked the line i have heard repeatedly, that"The flotilla was an attack on our image".I have heard this from about 3 sources, so it must be official PR.In what sort of depraved state is an aid ship an "attack on their image"? What sort of state can have its image undermined by the supply of food and medical supplies.Moreover, what happened to "proportionality"? An attack on a states "image" sees commandos kill 10, in international waters, and wound 30 (and arrest 600).
Mornin All, Any Word from the Wildhack?Wot larks Pip! you could always call me sir, you know. heh heh.Like Pepermint Patty?, 'Uh, Sir?'
Not sure where MOntana is, no, just taking a break i spose. I'm sure she'll be back soon.
Morning Jay,I think the Israelis see the the aid ships as an 'attack on their image' because it calls into question their proaganda that Gaza is doing fine. Grotesque on every level.The Sharpeville massacre is apposite in many ways. The day after the massacre, the Johannesburg Star condemned the South African Government for its:"pathetic faith in the power of machine guns to settle basic human problems"Now I am no expert on I/P affairs, as I said previously, but for me some comparisons with apartheid South Africa are valid. A 'siege mentality' macho State which has the backing of the USA and will not give an inch for being perceived as weak. Whilst breathtaking human rights abuses take place, they completely deny it using all forms of propaganda to propagate this myth.I have no doubt that if the South African apartheid era State existed today it would have it's fully cranked up, turned up to 11 propaganda campaigns in full flow like the Israelis.And of course to point this out makes you a supporter of Hamas and an anti semite.....
your grace"sporting lesbian"hehehehehehthere were some good ones in the work pool - Spartak Croydon, Red Star Liner, that kind of thing. mine was 'shark city' (ref: Hunter S Thompson)
@Duke and @JayIt's difficult to see Israel as anything but incompetent after yesterday's disaster. But it's impossible to see the flotilla as a simple humanitarian mission, when the aid it carried could have been delivered in a different way.Instead, it was an explicit attempt to break the naval blockade. You might think that would be a good thing; but what would happen afterwards, given free movement of naval freight into Gaza? That freight would not all be air conditioners and cuddly toys.So what do you expect Israel to do?
Hi PeterThe flotilla was also a protest, yes, designed to draw attention. Quite rightly. Neither the naval blockade nor the siege of Gaza are legal, to my knowledge. They have turned Gaza into a giant prison camp with inadequate supplies for the people living there. So ultimately fault lies with Israel for maintaining this state of affairs. It is Israel that is the occupying force, in breach of multiple UN resolutions and international law. That aside, they could have approached the ships peacefully, in daylight, in Israeli waters. They attacked it with commandos in international waters at night. I really cannot see how its justified in any way at all.
So what do you expect Israel to do?Not assassinate in a third country using US passports.Not attack ships in international waters.At what point does the suffering they inflict matter more than what their ancestors suffered? I don't have any answers, just think it's a shit storm.Off to glyphosate the paths, I'd rather not but 'I am only following orders'...
@JayI'm not trying to justify the operation or how it was done. I'm just wondering what you think would happen if the naval blockade was lifted. What I think would happen is that more heavy weapons would be imported, and used to kill or attempt to kill Israelis, both Jewish and non-Jewish. Which I'm sure would be condemned by everyone who is currently in favour of lifting the blockade, and a fat lot of good that would be.
Peter,there's no doubt the flotilla was a political as well as humanitarian statement but that does not excuse the gross violation of International law as well as the disproportionate use of violence in this case. I/P is an extremely complex situation but the Israeli response normally tends to be simplistic in the extreme- the use of overwhelming force in the face of justified questions vis a vis the humanitarian distress within Gaza. Do you believe Israel when she says that she is doing all she can for Gaza in terms of aid and humanitarian efforts? If you don't then surely the question must be how Israel allows Gaza to be opened up to International aid. The disingenuous statements from Israel that Gaza is fine is at the heart of it. I'm not for one second suggesting that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but the response of an advanced 21st Century State should be more than capable with dealing with these complexities than the archaic medieval way it is responding to them at the moment.It's the old lesson of History, extreme circumstances create extremism. Gaza is a classic example.
@DukeIn the first four months of 2010, almost 250,000 tons of humanitarian aid have been delivered to Gaza from Israel, alongside fuel for power generation and oil for cooking, while thousands of Gazans have travelled the other way for medical treatment.During that period, there have been many rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel, detailed here.Under those conditions, how much more open do you want humanitarian aid to be? And if there was no naval blockade, do you think that Hamas would pack in the messianic stuff and become a happy nation-building government?It's fine to slag Israel off, and it deserves it. But it's in a vice, and the Palestinians and their leaders are not passive icons of suffering.
If the blockade was lifted I'm certain there'd be more rocket attacks. The reason there are rocket attacks is because Israel has turned Gaza into a prison and occupied vast swathes of Palestinian land by force. So its no good looking at these issues in isolation, like the blockade, or rockets, etc. If Israel lifted its siege of Gaza and retreated back to its '67 borders then any rocket attacks after that point i would condemn wholeheartedly.Israel is an occupying force. Occupation can never be a stable environment, it is Israel that needs to take responsibility for this, comply with UN/Security council resolutions and international law and retreat to its legal boundaries. All the things it says it has to do, like the blockades and attacks on civilians, stem ultimately from the occupation. However much aid has got through, aid workers have repeatedly said it isnt enough. Medical treatment - again, not enough, the lack of medical facilities and treatment for Gazas is largely beyond dispute. It is not adequate. And yes, there have been rocket attacks. People tend to get angry when you turn their home into a prison camp and then shell it with illegal munitions.
@JayOK, fine. Let's try it your way. I'm sure your condemnations will help when it all blows up again.
Its not about my condemnations, Peter, its about recognising a just resolution to the problem - attacks from either side after such a resolution would place blame squarely on them.
@JayIn principle, I agree with you. In practice, it will mean a lot of dead people; most of them Gazan through the asymmetry of forces. The fact that we can then apportion blame justly will, I'm sure, be good for our own moral health.
More dead people than die in the repeated conflicts resulting from the occupation? Hard to believe. Gaza, the West bank, Lebanon... The occupation has caused many thousands of deaths and continues to do so.I also dont see why an Israeli withdrawal would kill a lot of Gazans. Its really not about my moral health, piece of mind, condemnation or anything of that nature - it is an occupation which about 90% of the world recognise as wrong, illegal and unjust.
@JayThe occupation of Gaza, with the exception of the blockade, ceased in 2005. Since then many Gazans have died because the end of the occupation did not end the conflict. Would the lifting of the blockade end the conflict? No. Instead, heavier weapons would be fired deeper into Israel, and Israel would have to retaliate. More dead Gazans.There is no negotiated settlement on the table that Hamas would accept, and it doesn't care what the PA does in the West Bank or whatever deals it might sign.If the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza ended tomorrow, the intensified killing of Israelis would begin the same day.
Peter,during lunch I've been flicking through one of the Dutch newspapers Algemeen Dagblad. They have a parallel column with an argument from a pro-Israeli writer and pro Gazan writer. The pro-Israel writer writes:“What do they mean Free Gaza? Gaza is free! They’ve sent an aid convoy to people who don’t need aid. Ridiculous. Forget those nutcases on the ships.”The pro-Gazan writer writes:: “If you shut up rats in a small cage they will behave aggressively. Israel is a rogue state. There should be a war tribunal for the political leaders of Israel.”It's these types of entrenched and hyperbolic views which infantilises the debate worldwide and makes possible solutions harder. Unfortunately, this type of debate is utilised by leaders of both states. It's an impossible situation,it truly is, but using disproportionate violence in International waters is a gross over reaction which has done nothing but worsen both the political and humanitarian situation.
@DukeAs I said at the start, yesterday's raid was stupid and incompetent, and ultimately deadly.My concern is that whatever happens now will kill a lot of people, one way or another, and that lifting the blockade on Gaza will not help one tiny bit.I really can't see a way out unless Hamas and Netanyahu both lose power simultaneously.
Just snuck home for lunch.PeterJI agree with Jay, although I do share your fears too. David Grossman and Amos Oz have written good pieces on cif today. I particularly noticed the following from Oz's piece:But Hamas is not just a terror organisation. Hamas is an idea. A desperate and fanatical idea that grew out of the desolation and frustration of many Palestinians. No idea has ever been defeated by force – not by siege, not by bombardment, not by being flattened with tank treads, and not by marine commandos. To defeat an idea you have to offer a better idea, a more attractive and acceptable one. Something has to change. More effort has to be made. I do not underestimate the difficulties and the many obstacles that will be put in the way by people from both sides - but how much longer can the present situation continue without much worse befalling everyone in I/P?
Sheff,I just noticed that Oz article. It's good.
And on a more light hearted note, I'm sure you'll all congratulate the Netherlands with me with the news that it's just got higher.Mount Scenery on the Netherlands Antilles Island of Saba will be officially recognised later this month as the highest point in the Netherlands. The Netherlands Antilles are part of 'The Kingdom of the Netherlands' therefore it's allowed. At 877 metres it's now the Netherlands Everest. Heady stuff eh? I'll bet medve is over the moon at this news.
And I´ve just realised I´ve missed the perfect opportunity to use the ´getting high in the Netherlands´ joke.Must try harder, must try harder.....
Your GraceI wish we got more from people like Oz and Grossman (who's son was killed, last year whilst he was serving in the IDF).Whilst the flotilla was genuinely intent on delivering humanitarian aid, it was also a political provocation I agree - but a political one, not a military one and if what has happened has the effect of precipitating some real, positive action towards finding an acceptable settlement then perhaps it won't have been in vain. But my optimism/hope is only hanging by a thread, I have to say.
PeterIsrael is not interested in peace along '67 lines, they have made that clear beyond doubt. The Israeli assault on Gaza in late 2008 was the result of Israel breaking the cease-fire, not Hamas. This was acknowledged at the time (check the Guardian reports) and an Israeli general since, but mysteriously the official story now runs that it was hamas rocket attacks which started Israel's brutal purge. I saw a Guardian report from more recently that seems to have forgotten its very own reporting on the original breach of the ceasefire, and has adopted the new "official line". It is a myth that Israel is interested in peace. Israel is interested in peace only once it has complete control of all the land it desires.On what grounds do you say a withdrawal to 67 lines would cause the immediate attack on Israel from Gaza? Seems highly unlikely to me. The onus is on Israel to withdraw because it is Israel that is the occupying force, the aggressor, in clear breach of international law.
@SheffBoth you and Grossman deserve a fuller response about Hamas and ideas - I'll have to come back to it later.
Peter - I can see your point of view but I tend to agree with Duke. This latest act just has no justification and in fact Turkey could take it as an act of war. Thank God they don't seem to be going down that route. I know there is provocation from both sides - I watched Charlie Brookers tv quiz the other night 'you have been watching' - and he showed a shocking clip from Palestinian childrens tele. It was bascially a small girl being indoctrinated by this puppet to kill the Jews. ON TV!! I was so shocked.However I have also seen news reports that shine a very different light on Israels claims that aid is getting through and people can come and go. Children are dying because of lack of medical aid - dying needleslly. And I follow a basic premise when I read news stories on the whole I/P debate - which side lost more life. When you look at it that way the Palestinians have suffered a hell of a lot more than the Israeli's who seem to have no sense of proportion whatsoever. On another note - final thing I am going to say about this I promise. But a friend popped in last night - when I was in full rage against MAM. She read some of his posts - a fair few actually - now said friend is a psychologist and has a special interest in personality disorders particularly the more dangerous end of the spectrum.She quickly declared he is probably anti social with a splash of narcisistic and possibly well on way to full blown sociopathery. I have shared said info with MAM in case he wants to get help for his ''issues''. But her point was that in the opinion of most you cant 'cure' a personality disorder - it is not a mental illness it is a person who is born without the 'right' amounts of empathy etc.Now I am not sure about that and whilst I do believe full on psycho's exist as to the degree to which people are 'born wrong' who knows and as to the degree of them not being able to be cured - again who knows. But I did take great pleasure in telling him that according to a bit of an expert he's a ''wrong un''.
Billy Connoly gets the freedom of the city of Glasgow! I like what little I know of William but am not over keen on his lady.I'm trying to work out if the 'negotiations' would be aided by a level playing field in which The Israelis and the Palestinians were each given five nuclear bombs. Perhaps with only one firing pin, the ownership to be decided on the turn of of the cards and then the new next pin passed to the opposite side for the trigger of the next bomb etc.Peter, a lot of the secular thinkers down my way have lost empathy with the Jew's leaders, much as we admire the contributions to world civilisation that so many Jewish offspring have made. It is hard for us to see sometime giants made fools of by their pygmy cousins. That old, old question of how 'they' resolve the conflicts of dual nationality/identity is increasingly being asked.I don't know how we get that message through closed ears. I really don't.This is my only post for today so I won't be able to respond today but I will try pick up on any comment anybody wishes to make in due course.Sadly the gentiles have similar problems.I guess we all need to try to get the rich USA Jews to understand that we cannot build a brighter future on the belated conscience of the guilt of their 'never at risk' survivor relatives. At least I don't think so.Best W Montana
I can't think any more about this topic - I'll let Daniel Barenboimspeak for me.And here is the West eastern Divan orchestra playing at the proms last year.They can play together one day perhaps they can learn to live together.
princess,She quickly declared he is probably anti social with a splash of narcisistic and possibly well on way to full blown sociopathery. I have shared said info with MAM in case he wants to get help for his ''issues''.Brilliant! Did they reply? What thread, I must go look.
Liked this, from Patrick Cockburn in today's Indy:An old Israeli saying describing various less-than-esteemed military leaders says: "He was so stupid that even the other generals noticed." The same derisive remark could be applied almost without exception to the present generation of Israeli politicians.
PCC Slappin MAM
Kinda gone off The Big Yin. Like so many great comics, he just ain't that funny anymore, (cf Steve Martin) his main job, being Prince Charles baby sitter, has perhaps lead to his apologist attitude about Scottish independence. He says 'nationalism' bad! Like National Socialism! Boo!I say Independence good, anti Imperial, all residents will be citizens.Right, nicely Godwined. L8rs ; )
Morning all,Peter,I agree that the issue is not a simple one, but for me, the recent incident seems to be a microcosm of the bigger one.Israel, in defending something that has been internationally condemned (By the UN amongst others), further defied International rules and conventions, and using overwhelming force (Because of a possible small 'violent element' in a convoy of over 650 people), took-over what was effectively foreign soil, and, when attacked by those wishing to defend it, with what can at, best, be described as small weapons, justified their actions in terms of self-defence.In my opinion, whatever legitimate concerns they had about the convoy and it's cargo, cannot justify this response.And with regards to the blockade....The UN has specifically condemned it. Most of the International community has condemned it, yet it is still enforced.And yes, they do let some aid through, but by the UN's calculations, it is less than one quarter of what is needed.They ban building materials, which mean that, following their own incursions, Israel now enforces continued homelessness for well over 5000 families. Hospitals, where they still exist, lack medicine, and other essential supplies.And despite all this, the blockade does not stop Hamas. If anything, quite the opposite.The smugglers tunnels are still being used to bring in weapons, and now, crucially, given the despair and desperation of the occupants of what can only be described as a ghetto, there's at least as many people willing to fire them.Israel knows this, and have all but admitted that, unable to stop actual weapons, they're using the blockade to perpetuate despair, in the hope that this will eventually erode support for Hamas.(Again, a quick exploration of the history of the world would suggest that an occupied people become increasingly more aggressive/dangerous as they run out of other options....)For me, even if Israel was 'playing by the rules' in all other aspects of ME issue, this is not a justified or acceptable way for a country to conduct itself, and it should not be allowed to continue unchallenged.
It was definitely going to be one post day but I just have to say PCC you are a class act.If you can't do much, you do help lift the spirits of others. Many thanks.
Duke, PipsterThere's a team in my fantasy league called Real Betis Hotpot, which always makes me chuckle.(It's a Corrie reference for those of you reading in the South....)
ARRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!(I feel better now, thank you)
PCC, re your friend and MAMI have always suspected 'mental health proffessionals' have a disparaging view of their clients in private and this proves it.A psychologist with a specific interest in a specific field diagnosing someone with what they spccfy in... quelle surpise. I have had 4 or 5 different 'diagnoses' from people like this. (The conclusion I have indpendendtly come to is that I am not mentally ill, I just had some rocky parts during childhood.)FWIW I hate MAM, but yout 'diagnosis' is questionable, and why I have no respect for the 'mental health industry'- yes I call it an industry.Other than that, interesting piece on Calton in Glasgow. Duke?
God, I'd forgotten that I had a Fantasy League side for the season just ended...(once it became apparent I wasn't going to well, so that was by mid-September,I stopped actively managing it). Substandard Liege.
13th Duke - it ignored that part of my post and just reasserted its bizarre assertion that no one has died of ME - when people have. It then went on to say I was wrong to say ME has been around under that name since the fifties as it was not known then.When in fact there were numerous outbreaks in the fifties and the name ME was coined by medics at the time - the disease has been known about for many centuries but used to be called different things. I told it that I am willing to be more understanding of its lack of compassion due to the fact that it cannot help being ill - however plain stupidity and lack of facts are not to be tolerated.It hasn't responded yet. Whats really scary about MAM is that right now he/she/it just sits at home spilling their bile onto Cif - but in the right circumstances at the right time they would be first in line to work on some dire new solution for our economic woes. One that involved camps and the like. As my learned friend said to me last night - around fifteen percent of the population are thought to have varying degrees of personality disorder - from relatively mild stuff to full blown psychopaths. But they all have one thing in common - an inability to feel empathy to varying degrees. I think I got what she said wrong way round - she said narcissistic with rising anti social I think. Cant remember but am going to read up on it - is very interesting stuff.But obviously - in all seriousness - a person may post stuff on Cif that they don't even believe. MAM might just be a bored old dear that likes the controversy. If they do stand by their views though then they are a danger to society as their views are definitely anti-social.Last night they declared mentally ill people should either be forced to work or if too ill to work foribly sectioned immediately until well enough to work.
PCC. I didn't mean to sound a bit blunt previously, re your psychologist friend, but it is somewhat unethical to go around diagnosing people. Even in a social setting.MAM is certainly worht skipping though, when scrollling down comments.
Princess/NapoleonWhat happened to that New Labour plan to train thousands of new CBT therapists.CBT being seen as a relatively cheap way of 'curing' those deemed tobe mentally ill.But more importantly from the governments point of view of getting them back to work.Dreadful solution in my opinion and one that shouldnever have been mooted.A CBT therapist working for the government and probably paid by results?Just likethe medical professionals working for ATOS!
PeterJ, hello.I oppose the selling of armaments to Hamas/Fatah/PLO/PDFLP/whatever they are called now. Shame that much of the world likes to supply Israel with oh I dunno, a "little bit" more weaponry? Fair dues though, they did build up their own arms manufacturers, with the help of the benevolent South Africans in the 1970s.So if you support a blockade against Gaza, for Israel's safety, I expect you would support a blockade against Israel, for Palestinian/Lebanese/Syrian, possibly Iranian safety?
I know I said I would only post once this day and it is now threebut I've decided I don't give a fuck 'cos I'll be on the bench after the 6th.That beloved barley of mine is misbehaving - the day here is sunny and sultry even. Fine barley watching weather. Even better with the blind tenor on my mp3 thing - ain't go a fegging clue of the latino in which he sings but he rings my bell.The strands of my desire stand undecided, 90% of them face straight up to the heavens, the rest are in different parts of my field bowing South and North in about equal proportions.I have run out of pencils. I need to write a note to myself to take a strand of barley for each of my female comrades that I will have the delight of meeting on the 5th.I should be grateful if those who are more organised than me would sometime post hereDEANO 5TH - BARLEY.What is the purpose of a collective if it is not for the helping of each the other?
oh Napk - It was in jest not a serious diagnosis. Obviously she is not seriously saying it and I probably shouldn't have written it but it made me laugh.And I think personality disorders are very controversial anyway - many within the mental health community that I know think its wrong to label someone that way and just say they are bascially ''wrong''. I think there are many people who work in MH who are very decent and who try their best but its not a science and so its hard to diagnose and treat etc that it can be hard to get the right help.I had a very bad experience when a CBT therapist made me get back in a lift that had broken as part of some exposure therapy to get over panic attacks. It got stuck again and anyway upshot is it set me back massively at the time and then still now I cant get in a lift at all - so it had the opposite effect. And the therapist nearly crapped herself because I just went postal in the lift. I was all about to kick the doors in when they finally opened. She was so shocked - but what did she expect - put a person who gets panic attacks in a lift that keeps breaking!!But as for MAM - it doesn't take an expert to see his/her views are really extreme at times. And to be honest they would fit right in in the third reich - i don't think they can be a well adjusted human being. Unless they are just trolling. But rest assured my mate is very committed and it was just a bit of fun. She also does not view her patients with contempt.
NapK - Just replied to you and seen your next post. Didn't take it wrong way don't worry - as I said she said it to me and thinking about it I probably shouldn't have bunged it on Cif she would not be too happy. Paul - that plan went ahead, well it did in South YOrks. i have a bit of an issue with CBT. I saw one therapist who was great - she was a bit hippyfied and really into this stuff called ACT and mindfulness based stuff and that was working really well for me. I paid to see her as I couldn't get referred as I 'only' had panic attacks. (I saw an occupation health consultant who said that I wasn't depressed nor suffering with severe ongoing anxiety and so therefore if I did get referred I could be waiting up to two years! They'd had a huge rise in suicidal cases in the last couple of years).Anyway back to the CBT - shortly after seeing her a while she announced she was not seeing patients anymore as she was going to be training these CBT therapists full time - she's on her second year of trainees now. So I then got given the name of this other therapist - she was very nice but into floodin and exposure therapy and hence the lift scenario. That just put me off for life. And in fact I got much better by just staying away from CBT.Then again I have a friend with OCD who found it brilliant - so it probably depends on a lot of things.I think one thing that no one wants to address is how sick modern society is making people. I have a fair few friends who in the last five years or so have suffered depression or anxiety or panic attacks or OCD - many of them caused by work related stress it has to be said. New Labour - rather than admitting that modern neo liberal societies are bad for people just want to apply the sticking plaster of CBT to a huge weeping wound.It does make me wonder though how MAM is so scathing of mental illness - depression is ''nothing'' etc - yet displays worrying characteristics of not being able to empathize etc themselves. MAM heal thyself maybe?
"but it is somewhat unethical to go around diagnosing people. Even in a social setting..."Nap my fine young friend may I recommend some Bertie Russell Berts Papersa gent who when he wasn't busy (a la Furnivall) trying to put his hand up ladies skirts was thinking.One of the conclusions he came to was to the effect experts professionals............?? If I Bert stood at this bus stop long enough every expert/professional would have another expert/p disagree with them ............on the bus passing in the opposite direction................or at least that is how I best understand his writing.
princessI think you,re right.A multitude of social problemsis having a devastating impact on growing numbersof peoples mental and physical well being.And a lotof the talk about increasing longevity needs to be seen in the context of increasing disparities based not only on class but also the incresing number of years people are spending in poor health.Also another possible demographic shift in the population is in the increasing numbers of people who are unlikely to live as long as either their parents or even grandparents.Another sigh of whatis so unfair in our society.Don,t want to add to your anger over MAM but he seems to have acquired a like-minded playmate called Prof Plums.Another one to steer clear of when you,refeeling like shite.
princessI'm not in a position to diagnose MAM but the fact is he/she does seriously lack ordinary human empathy. I also find his/her posts are usually some kind of wind up designed to derail the discussion and get people focusing on him/her. As such I long ago ceased to read the posts. If everyone else did the same he/she would soon piss off and bore someone else. Something similar could be said of bitey here.
Sheff,"Something similar could be said of bitey here. "Normally I'd agree, but in this particular instance I'm not so sure!
What utter shit Madge; one of grand her figs will fly to New York to discover if Us and Uk Vets have something in common.IF had spent my cock juice on such an empty vac I would have thought my end was near.DEANO 5TH - BARLEY.
PCC.I was 'diagnosed' with a 'personality disorder', but there was no real substance to it. PDs are just blanket catch all termsWhy can't psychiatrists and psychologists accept that some people grow up in a dysfunctional home/family situation, and usually the best thing to do is leave that situation, as I did.
James,Alisdair Real Betis hotpot and Substandard Liege. I like them.NapoleonI read the article. Fairly limited to be honest, with the usual moronic comments below. Edwin made a good point BTL that it's not the whole area, it's certain streets. A much more interesting investigation into Glasgow and Scotland's socioeconomic and health problems is David Bell and David Blanchflower's The Scots may be brave but they are neither healthy or happyAs well as investigating the socioeconomic, health and social capital indicators it brings into play the 'Scottish psyche' which I have always believed exacerbates problems.
@ Paul, that programme is/was called IAPT. Was heavily tied into the Layard (an economist,wouldn't you know...) report. It is nationwide and every locality has to implement it, with the last wave being this coming year.First wave was heavily screwed up, tied in with simply getting folk off benefits and into work, not assisted by 2Dame" Carole Black's dead-hand influence:she (not an MH user/practitioner or expert) is firmly of the Arbeit Macht Frei scholl and brooks no dissent (look online for the almighty fuck-up she made of MTAS and MMC relating to medical education and the scandalous attempt to ruin the lives of those who dared point out her fuck-up).Anyhow, first wave was CBT (by low/under-qualified practitioners) on every street corner, with fuckwitted Govt thinking being bish,bosh 6-8 crappy sessions of CBT and bang,you're off benefits,and work-ready,regardless of your actual state (i.e. you've been through the programme, therefore you must be cured and well: no evidence to the contrary allowed.The irony has been that as the money for IAPT has dried up, wiser voices have prevailed.The BPS for one has managed to ensure that now CBT isn't the only game in town (though in some areas it is):it has the strongest evidence base, for mild problems, which are also the ones that usually resolve themselves unaided..., but there again it's the only therapy which the Govt invested money into researching: policy-based evidence creation, propping up CBT as it's a cheap option, especially if delivered by the under-qualified, and the wish was to have an assembly-line system,nothing could fail,or at least no failures admitted to, and then the Minister can satnd up in the HoC and say they've cracked mental health.If only...oh, and Layard,who TBH was a bit of an innocent dupe, with his work being used for Govt purposes and misinterpreted, had his own rather more fanciful notions of imbuing the population with happiness has been kinda sidelined.Upshot is that while CBT is still way,way too prevalent, the money isn't there for the full mechanistic assembly-line approach, and existing therapists are being asked to implement a version of IAPT: they've said, in short that they want the discretion to use any therapy they see as appropriate and in 3rd wave IAPT sites, they have much greater flexibility to do so.Bad luck mind, if your locality was a 1st waver, and it waits to be seen what fresh idiocy comes out of the new Govt and the singularly unfit-for-purpose,managerialist,process- and metrics-obsessed Dept of health (whose hugely well-paid bosses cannot distinguish between data/info gathering and actual knowledge/insight.
princessI know we're not supposed to be into backslapping here but I had a look at your recent posting history on the back of your MAM exchanges.Really, you are the Xenia, Warrior Princess of the Left on there. I truly admire your indefatigability, I don't know how you do it. Just don't burn yourself out!
I've said it before, but MAM is actually just a black ops virus created by the NSA and CIA after 9/11; it leaked through their firewall at an early stage of prototype and escaped onto the worldwide web where it has systematically plastered blogs with neocon madness ever since.If it had a voice, it would be Leonard Nimoy's.Hope this helps.
Dott - I asked you the other day you were busy.......how far North can barley grow?
Jesus 12 dead in Cumbria, I really thought this couldn't happen again.A very sad day.
Aye, Jenn, it's soul destroying. I bet his brothers and sisters won't argue that he was attacked by people with sticks and metal poles.Bad times.
Jennifer - yes just seen the news in Cumbria. Absolutely appalling. So, so sad. 13th Duke - I need to give it a rest - got a bit too angry what with being a bit down and its not good. Like being compared to Xena though. She (the actress) is in the very bizarre Spartacus: Blood and sand. NapK - Well I do think that socio/pscyhopaths exist - I used to know one. I knew this awful kid years back that killed animals, pulled the legs off frogs, fastened his cat to the washing line with pegs on its paws - seriously he was so wrong. But as for the rest of the 'disorders' I know that they are very controversial. A good friend who is an OT who worked in mental health for years absolutely doesn't believe in them. But I am not enough of an expert to give a considered opinion. Hope I didn't cause offence with my offhand remarks about MAM - as someone who has had people tell me to ''just stop panicking for gods sake'' when in full blown panic attack I know how hurtful such remarks can be.
AlisdairCheers for that.And i,m pretty sure you,d agree thatwhatever the Tories have planned for those with MHproblems it will be done on the cheap and have little or no positive impact.Other than of course to raise the stress levels of people who are already incredibly vulnerable in many cases.I have a real sense that although we are supposedto be living in a more enlightened age ourpolitical classes still largely embrace variationsof the 'pull yourself together' creed.Which explainswhy MH services are so often under-funded.Obviously you know all this anyway what with yourjob.But it makes a layman like me extremely angry.Especially as many people with MH problems are suchbecause they,ve been worn down by the crap life,sthrown at them rather than any genetic dispositionto mental illness.My gut feeling is that levels of MH problems may well be significantly lower in the more egalitariansocieties in the developed world.Although saying that some of the Scandinavian countries have relatively high levels suicide levels-although i,vealways assumed that could partly be down to SAD.
Jesus wept! 12 dead and 25 injured...what an appalling week. jennI don't think we can ever think they'll never happen again. Remember Hungerford and Dunblane. Tragically, periodic outbreaks of this kind of madness seem to be part of the human condition.I pity the families - particularly Derek Byrds.
oh fuck the confusion You know nothing that I don't Hank/SScherf
Deanoarley can certainly grow as far north as the Baltic. i think it came - as a wild grass - from the Fertile Crescent - and by the 13 + 14 centiry was cultivated throughtout Europe. EverybodyAnother dreadful day. Questions around definitions of 'normal human behaviour' abound - collectively and individually.
LeniWe all have our breaking point.And often the 'strawthat breaks the camels back' and triggers off anevent like today,s atrocity is something quite minor.
Where is everyone?
Don't make me get the Celine Dion out again....
Ugghh that's just such an aggressive act, out of all proportion, James!Are you Israeli, or what?
jamesceline really would be the last straw!! Am just trying to take in whats being happening. We have also had a more local tragedy. A man, woman and small child have been found dead in a village in Derbyshire. The police aren't saying how they died but do say they're not looking for anyone else in connection with the deaths.What a truly dreadful day. I was going to have a booze free evening but have changed my mind!
HabibMossad, I'd say.
For your information people, I received my training from the 'how to be a menace' series, which was sent to all Official Beano Fanclub members....
Paul:"My gut feeling is that levels of MH problems maywell be significantly lower in the more egalitariansocieties in the developed world"This is the fundamental point (says she, lurching in for all she's worth) Glasgow's poor die approx. 14 years before their richer counterparts. In Bangladesh, the overwhelming majority are, to all intents and purposes, as poor as each other and so, in collective poverty is more harmony and a greater egalitarinaism. They also live alot longer. The trouble really starts when the poor are set adrift as in the US and now increasingly here - they can see/watch/deduce from tv or any other source, how big the gap is between themselves and the 'haves', when the lack of advantage is shoved down their throats and they become little more than performing monkeys for the delectation of those who are rich. Well, no wonder some people resort to firearms and shooting their neighbours at random.
JamesI think i may well suffer an apoplexy if i were to besubjected to a burst of Ms Dion right now.And what would finish me off for good would be 'The Birdie Song'.Anyone who likes that should suffer a slow painful death.
JamesI loved the Beano! This was me as a kid according to my mother.
Wow - Celine Dion is obviously a great, and as yet, untapped source of power.....(*stroking goatee, and raising one eye-brow in a bond-villain kind of way - mwah-hah-hah....)
PeterJ:"I really can't see a way out unless Hamas and Netanyahu both lose power simultaneously"Netenyahu was party to bolstering and feeding Hamas as a force against Hezbollah and the PLO and as a way of further entrenching the divide between the West Bank and Gaza.Hamas is Israel's bastard child experiment, they are 'home-grown' - children have a tendency to grow up and rebel. 'Tis Israel who fed and watered it.and Hamas is nothing to do with the Flotilla.
Sheff,My mum used to tell me I looked like this......
Well, I say used to....
Sheff"I was going to have a booze free evening but have changed my mind!"Me too.Here you go, minnie the minx was a hero.
Hi All James, even as an idle threat, that's nefarious and disruptive. And you've been warned before. Yes , very troubling events in Cumbria. Why, exactly, did he lose it? Must be away for golf. Later guys.
Going back to the Israel/Gaza situation (If I may), here's a bit of the more bizarre 'facebook chatter' I encountered today...'Israel's actions, in fact, probably saved many more lives than it cost, because.........on inspection, some of the medicine on-board was found to have passed it's expiration date...'Clutching. At. Straws.
Dreadful fucking times indeed people. From Israel to Whitehaven by way of the Gulf of Mexico. I can safely say I'm in dire need of a good piss up.See youse all in Sheffield ?First round's on me.(James. Just step away from the Dion... ok ? Nice and easy... nice and easy...).....
HabibHere's a choon for you from one of our local boys Coles Corner. It's a bit romantic but then I think you're a bit of an old softie yourself.jamesThe Israeli spin machine knows no rest - if they can spin it they will, right down to the last dot and comma, Right now they want this story to die as its been a diplomatic disaster for them, but with the Rachel Corrie on the way, and I hope some positive developments from all the global furore, they're going to be out of luck.
Sheff,I'm not so sure, to be honest.I see it all 'blowing over' quite quickly.(It certainly isn't going to help that the US has given Israel their de facto backing already....)
HabibAre you going to come over to Sheffield? It's only 30 miles. Bitterweed is very good company. He likes to dance but no ones supposed to know!
Oh sheff, you play such sentimental music, how could I refuse? I was supposed to be somewhere else and I would be, if I could.Unable to cross town right now. It's just the way life goes, sometimes. So that means no. Have a pint to all our friends, for me?
JamesI don't know you may be right but then again....Nicaragua has broken diplomatic relations (well so what I hear you say), the Turks aren't going to let things just fade out and the Free Gaza Movement have the resources for another flotilla apparently and are beginning to plan for it so i hear. It might also re-invigorate the boycott campaign. I was at a rally in town this evening and a rep from the TUC was asking trade unionists to get on board and get their branches affiliated to the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and get active. If things like this happen across the globe things could start moving.This could be a catalyst, one of those moments when the shift starts - I guess we'll just have to see.
Have a pint to all our friends, for me?Sure will Habib - but I'm disappointed.
Sheff,Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right.I certainly think that this will create a lot in the way of support and sympathy for the cause amongst 'regular people', but from an International/Diplomatic point of view, I can't see it doing much.Turkey's already started to pull-back it's rhetoric (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but shows that they're re-thinking their actions within the context of current geo-political reality).The US' refusal to back an International investigation, or to even officially/formally censure Israel is hugely significant. (And, from experience, that's enough to pretty much kill anything of substance from happening).The UN are critical, but have already officially ruled against the blockade anyway, so we know that this won't necessarily make a difference.... And, finally, as I type, it seems to have not made it onto the BBC World News agenda this evening....
All of youGet your ass to Sheffield.Ok.
James;"Clutching. At. Straws"And not to mention spinning ridiculous yarns that would make Les Dawson laugh his head off.I've read the many, now closed, threads on this and I'm just completely stumped as to how this bullshit is still being perpetrated. Everything from the bloody ridiculous 'Paintball guns' defense from the State of Israel - one such vaguely identifiable on the (Israeli-controlled video footage - funny how it was so readily visible) to 'Hamas' and 'IHH' members were on board the flotilla... the IHH (the description of which was not once challenged by reporters from the BBC) Can anyone think of a more provocative act of violence that has not resulted in violent retribution upon the country that perpetrated such an act?El Salvador springs to mind
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/gm-food-public-dialogueTypically disgraceful, one of the many charms of our corporatist little abode. It seems we have spent £500,000 as taxpayers to lobby ourselves in favour of GM foods, via a group, under the FSA, with links to the GM industry. Just so typical of the grotesque union between government and business that has been allowed to develop. In Monbiot's Captive State he lists some other government bodies with industry links which have used public funds to actually lobby their own department on pro-business terms.
BW:I would love to be there but me auntie and uncle are over from Noo Yoik and i've got to bloody well go to work :-(Miserable doesn't describe it.....
LaRit,Yeah, I've seen so much specious reasoning, circular logic and straw men today that it would be funny, if it wasn't so tragic."Can anyone think of a more provocative act of violence that has not resulted in violent retribution upon the country that perpetrated such an act"?Interestingly enough, I believe that the International Law prohibiting the violent boarding of ships at see is a direct result of the hijacking of the Achille Lauro by the PLO (which resulted in one death) back in 1985.It's funny how it's now just an example of legitimate self-defence though, isn't it!?
I also saw some posted video of a well stocked 'arab' market, with some variation of 'you think Arabs are starving? I don't think so! Why don't you all worry about the Africans and other third world countries who have real problems, rather than these murderers, who clearly have everything they need'...which was, you know, nice....
evening alldesperate times......today Italy voted AGAINST the UNHCR request for an independent investigation into the Israeli attack on the flotilla.......the only reasons I can think of for this are:*Berlusco's govt hate the UNHCR because of its criticism of Italy's treatment of asylum seekers*arms salesThe other 2 govt that voted against were The USA and the Netherlands...Dukethe Netherlands? why was this?Interesting insiders POV on the murray blogabout NATO worth a read...
JamesD:'murderers who have everything they need'? That really is a joke. Well, for a start, Israel is has a govt. of murderers who seem to have everything they need, including the compliance and support of some very powerful friends in high places! In a world like Gaza where existence for the majority relies on the whim of the black market, I'm sure there is probably one well-stocked market for those who can afford/have something to offer in return for necessities.Germinal springs to mind. I'm sorry, but these fuckers have a deflection/justification for everything.... I presume that Mars is also inhabited by little green men ......
Gandolfo:Italy I can understand... Berlusconi's a facist arse, the Netherlands??? Wha???Saw the Craig Murray piece earlier today.. v.v.good.This too is a good readhttp://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?pagination=false
GandolphoVery interesting link, cheers.LaRitI agree, but it is quite alarming how quick people are to believe this kind of stuff though, isn't it!?How it's easier to believe the dehumanising myths, and spread them, rather than accept ones own (or ones governments) culpability in a given situation. Or to even consider the situation on a human level.Without wanting to Godwin per se, it does bear some striking, and worrying, similarities to some of the worst periods in human history.....
Jamesthe mythologising of a nation - so called race- has been responsible for many horrors. Hitler - PolPot and Now Israel.it is observable - it can be recogised but burns like a fire through an infected population. I believe that those Israelis supporting this act are well aware that they have dehumanised the Palestinians but cannot step back. Too much guilt. those who oppose this gvt - and previous - have been silenced. cannot understand Holland - they have always supported the Palestinians even managing to get some flowers out of Gaza immediately post Cast Lead, as far as I know the only commercial transaction from the Strip in the last 18 months. I wonder if other countries are actually buying into the Israeli myth rather than actually fearing escalalation of violence?I hope this isa tipping point - a change of policy depends very heavily upon making Israel understand that the world does not buy into the current Israeli national myth.The Rachel Corrie is expected to arrive in the area some time tomorrow - will it get through?
LaRit JamesMurray should write for the Graun kick some ass in that place....Interesting article LaRit this is scary....."When Israeli high schools held mock elections last year, Lieberman won. This March, a poll found that 56 percent of Jewish Israeli high school students—and more than 80 percent of religious Jewish high school students—would deny Israeli Arabs the right to be elected to the Knesset. An education ministry official called the survey “a huge warning signal in light of the strengthening trends of extremist views among the youth.”i also saw something on TV a while back and can't remember whether it was Italian TV or the BBC about Rabbis now being a part of the armed forces, saying prayers before military action etc. This was never allowed before the army was strictly secular (as far as it could be!). I've met loads of young post draft Israelis and I'd say 99% of them regurgitate the same thing: "All Palestinians are potential terrorists we need to protect Israel" it's frightening that they are so indoctrinated with hate and the desire for some kind of retribution....
This is the link re rabbis and the military it was the beeb
Lenithe abstentions on the vote were:Belgium, GB, France and Japan 3 other countries weren't present at the vote.mmm the Rachel Corrie....what flag is she sailing under?
La RitBring em along. cultural exchange and all that.(As for El Salvador... don't get me started...)JayRI heard all that stuff on Radio 4 this A.M. about GM and FSA, fucking disgraceful, anti-truth, anti-science greedy bastard bullshit dressed up as "ratioanlity." Cunts.
GandolfoThe RC seems to be registered in Ireland.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/west-bank-rabbi-jews-can-kill-gentiles-who-threaten-israel-1.4496GandolfoThe "Kings Torah" was wrtten by a rabbi- permitting the killing of Gentile babies - this was distributed to IDF troops. The religious fanatics appear to be on the increase in Israel.
Leni/GandolphoYeah this is an increasing problem, I feel.The dual impact of the internal propaganda machine and military service in Israel is creating a stream of extreme, angry and often times violent individuals that at least matches the levels of extremism present in the Arab world.(see this as an example......)This has been backed up, as far as I can tell, with the 'anyone who criticises Israel, is an enemy or is anti-semitic' tactic that I can only assume is official policy. I've sometimes tried to point out the similarities in the depictions/treatment of Arabs with similar historic treatment of the Jewish people, and this is either greeted with anti-semitic accusations being directed at myself, or, frustratingly, as a justification/excuse for that very treatment against others now.....I really struggle to understand it!!
good grief what will they think of next:"This was not a love boat, this was a boat of hate," Mr Netanyahu said. If it wasn't so brutal and tragic I could almost laugh......Leni James I remember seeing that beeb report and thinking things are goin' to get worse.....
jamesThe latest buzz word seems to be 'delegitimsing' Israel.Leftists and Arabs are dismissed completely. It is tragic - the way in which some streams of Judaism are going - flowing together with extremists from Christianity and some Muslim sects. Nothing to choose between them.
JamesWhat it,s creating is an attitude that all Palestinians are Untermensch.Although in allfairness some terrorist groups have viewedIsraeli Jews as such as well.Am not playing Devils Advocate here but people have to try and see where we are today in it,shistorical context.And in its historical contextthe Palestinians aren,t blameless.
JamesThe fcuking cut,n,paste didn,t work.Was relatingto your first para re internal propaganda machinein Israel etc.
Paul Yes when looking at the whole I/P question which is complex to the enth degree, but in the case of the assault on these boats IMO the Israeli govt is totally to blame......
It's often hard to know which side to support, especially when the Israeli publicity machine gets into full gear.Maybe a song helps?
PaulThe politicians on both sides are to blame as are those who have supported them. the big problem is that Israel is allowed to have have armed forces - heavily supported by Us and other countries. The Palestinians have never been allowed to defend themselves. This inevitably led to other means - violent actions we call terrorism. I am opposed to all violence - but the principle of the right to self defence is enshrined in both national and international law - unless you happen to belong to certain minorities controlled by others - then you just shut up and put up with it. Suicide bombers fill us with horror - why are they worse than a guy bombing someone from the air - both are indiscriminate killers and most pilots live to bomb another day. There is a moral equivalence - both kill and maim, one with impunity.
Hi HabibIt's often hard to know which side to support, especially when the Israeli publicity machine gets into full gear.if you know it's a publicity machine spouting half truths and often darn right lies it shouldn't be to difficult to ascertain where the truth lies. It's not a case of supporting one side against the other like a game of footie but seeing who is the opressor and who is the opressed....my support in this case goes to the Palestinian people not Hamas....
gandolfo''but in the case of the assault on these boats IMO the Israeli govt is totally to blame......'' Agreed.But what happened is yet another tragic chapter in what is an ongoing saga.And there willnever be a lasting peace between Israel and thePalestinians until their is a form of 'Truth andReconciliation'.And that will involve both sidesfacing up to what they,ve done since 1947.
Paul Nothing will happen in Israel or palestine until all the international community agrees to do something. Without external pressure on both sides the cycle of death and destruction will continue from both sides.
Gandolfo, "It's not a case of supporting one side against the other like a game of footie but seeing who is the opressor and who is the opressed"Well said. It would be nice to see Israel get stuffed in a non-violent way, though, wouldn't it? Throwing them out of Uefa would be a good start.
Paul/Leni/GandolphoObviously, 'zooming out to the bigger picture' reveals nuances and issues that make the whole thing a minefield.(Believe it or not, I used to be quite pro-Israel, but over the years, found I could no longer accept or defend their actions).And like so many other things in Pol/IR, it's the amount of hypocrisy around the issues that really gets me.(they kill innocent civilians, so we'll do the same, except we've got a bigger/better arsenal; they want to eliminate us, so that justifies us in eliminating them first; They don't follow 'International law', so why the f@ck should we...) And, at the end of the day, many of the 'actions' of Israel, at present, are in direct contravention of some of the most fundamental principles of International law, and, more importantly, human decency, and, for me, have to take precedence....
Anyway, that's me off for the night....Once again, goodnight and good luck friends...
Good one Habib! Right Back atcha NN all. Sallam, shanti, peace. Out.
"The only way to stop terrorism is to stop participating in it" (Noam Chomsky)The USA has been going around the globe terrorising "commies" for decades under the guise of fighting for "freedom" yet when the countries they try to impose their "neo con" agenda on, reject it they cry "foul" and impose their neo liberal ideology by holding that country to ransom. The "Chicago School" economics (Milton Friedman) are put into place and the asset stripping begins.The American corporate machine goes to work and companies like Bechtel and Haliburton make squillions of dollars by bankrupting the country because they all knew it would default on it's debt. Job done.I'm no economist: if you want it explained better (much better!) here's what you need to read: "The Economic Hitman" by John Perkin
BTW: the neo-liberal/neo-con ideology( or whatever else it might be called) ain't "Rocket Science." You don't need a Phd in Economics to know when you are being shafted!
Are the night shift on strike?
chekhovThis bit of the night shift has been out feeding feral cats - I is here now.
Hello Leni, am I making any sense?
chekhov'...being shafted'. Hmm. Astute piece of political analysis. Any solutions ?
Leni: "Any solutions?" Good question. It's all very well for us to moan about what is wrong and not come up with alternatives about how to put things right. Well how about putting "drama" centre stage on the national curriculum and see how that pans out?It won't happen of course because the ruling elite (in spite of their ethos of "education education education")don't really want us to be educated at all. They would much prefer if we remained ignorant.
Leni: by "ignorant" I should have said "indoctrinated"
chekhov National dramas and myths are at the root of many of these problems. The dramas - narratives - of the elite are sustaining and self perpetuating - deepening their sense of entitlement. As for education - children should be taught to think - not to accept everything they are told. More drama and music, great novelists from around the world, creative alternative thinkers - the whole gamut. Indictrination creates - deliberately - ignorance.
Just off to take my 5 gramms of "soma"!
chekhovfly agaric ?
Sheffpixie, if you read some of my posts rather than simply mouthed off prejudice and abusive language, you'd realise how meaningless is your comparison. And "piss off bitey" is in the running for the most repeated post on this site. Is there a "most unoriginal comment prize" - maybe the "Bitethehand award for unoriginality"?You might be interested that in our entire posting history on CiF, which is considerably longer than yours, I have responded twice to one of MAM's comments and he / she / they once to one of mine. Both were on the subject of the popularity of street dancing in China and the behaviour of children of one child families.