Our own little corner of Stewart
Good morning world. The coalition govt's privatisation agenda continues apace. We're going to have police based in shopping parades and community centres instead of local police stations. Presumably they won't be needing specialist police stuff like security: access to IT systems like the PNC, somewhere to hold suspects / evidence. I can see it now - I can just pop down the shops to report that someone broke into my shed last night & get half a pound of tomatoes with my crime incident reference number. Or in rural Derbyshire - 'Directions to the cop shop? It's the old shepherd's hut, the one with the blue light, third field on the left on Moonshine Lane, me duck. Can't miss it'. I digress. The interesting bit is this:'The payment-by-results system, used to reward private groups that help the unemployed back to work, will be used for groups that succeed in introducing prisoners back into the community."We must get the incentives right in the criminal justice system," he said. "Targets are poor incentives, and often drive perverse behaviour and outcomes. We should embrace more powerful incentives, opening up contestability in penal services and paying providers – from the private and not-for-profit sector – by results."'So ATOS/A4E for ex prisoners is on the way.
Anyone hear Clegg wriggling on John Humphries hook this morning? Pathetic and contemptible.
Morning all,Came into my office this morning and two of my colleagues have sent me joking texts and emails about how much they want England to beat Germany in the next round of the world cup. Now it’s not the fact that they want England to win that bothers me, it’s the fact that they are centering their whole Dutch identity on wishing ill on their neighbour’s national football team. It’s small minded, chippy, bitter, bigotry of the highest order.At the base of this rather distasteful expression of the wish for Germany to go out of the World cup lies deeper undercurrents of inherent racism and xenophobia. What makes it worse is that the German girl in my office is taking it all in good humour, laughing back at the Dutch national team and hoping they get horsed out of the tournament as soon as possible. This is appalling behaviour harking back to a rather distasteful episode of German History 1933-45. I made my feelings clear in no uncertain terms what I think. I have a horrible feeling that as the game approaches the German girl will face hate crimes such as being sent a youtube clip of England beating Germany in 1966 or some comedy clips of Germans in lederhosen. I’ve already escalated my fears to my line manager.I wonder if someone could do me a favour? Could someone suggest an article on WADYYA featuring a laughably unaware analysis on the rise of not supporting your neighbours national football team and how this symbolizes that you are little better than a Nazi, wishing death, destruction and annihilation on your neighbour? I don’t think an article on this has been done yet. Thanks.I’ll keep you posted on my office. If Germany are beaten by England, I dread the mild mannered ribbing the German girl will take for about an hour before the rest of both parties lives continue on regardless. It’s going to be horrendous.
sheffYep, was going to post something in similar vein to you. Clegg's got a lot to learn about the media, hasn't he, and he's not getting much practice at public speaking in parliament.Aso caught an earlier item (just before 7.30?) about Today covering 2 areas in 2 constituencies, Ranmoor and the Flower estate, over the next few weeks. Should be interesting, as the 2 places are poles apart.
@13thDukeWill no one think of the female children? Generations of Dutch and German girls as yet unborn are certain to be scarred by that mild and good-natured football-related joshing for minutes or possibly longer.
But Duke this loathing of the English team and wishing them an early exit from a major tournament simply isnt fair - we are never given the opportunity to reciprocate!
Incidentally, I'm thinking of putting "something together" for CiF on why I'm now coming out as a proud Yorkshireman - after years of soul-searching and a long dark journey into the heart of, er, darkness, I woke up yesterday and thought "Hey! Being from Yorkshire is, y'know, kinda cool, I'm going to reclaim it from those dour buggers in flat caps sipping Theakstons and moaning about bloody Southerners. Eeeh by gum sithee, come on Yorkshire (especially in the football, I hear our guys are terrifically good at it)!"
Bloody Swifty! If 'e ent cock o'middins, 'e ent laikin...(spelling optional)
Swifty,exactly. And this is why SureStart should be extended into re-education programmes to ensure that racism and xenophbobia engendered within not supporting your neighbours national team is pre-emptively avoided. A trial programme has already been started in Glasgow, where pregnant working class mothers stand in front of a therapeutic belly massage machine with tapes of England football chants and 'Jerusalem' played at a very low nursery rhyme volume.This core group will be monitored closely over the next few World Cups and European Championships to see if they exhibit unnatural displays of not wanting to see England do very well.I could have done with it. If only they had it in the early 1970's it would have stopped me sending about 5 gently ribbing texts to my English Father and Brother in law as well as a couple of emails.Jay,you can't argue with the cast iron logic of your average Scotland fan- laugh at a team we can't beat, getting beaten in a tournament we can't qualify for.
Think of my poor sister, England born and bred and now forced through hideous circumstances (i.e. enjoying a much better standard of life in a beautiful place) to live among the vile Scots haters.She has been teased several times, despite now talking like Mrs Mac from Take the High Road, they can spot her Englishness a mile away.And feel for her poor son, born in Scotland of English parents the poor lad has to tease himself, it won't end well, I fear for his future mental health.
@Da DukeWe could put an end to all this xenophobia and abuse quite simply. All football supporters anywhere in the world should be legally required to support England. Foreign teams should have a statutory obligation to stand aside to let even Lampard score. England would win everything and the entire world would be one happy, united football family.
captainveg on Seumas's thread:I detest this "Lib-Con" moniker. Can't we move just a few letters around and call them properly the Lic-Nobs?
If you want an analysis of the budget without having to wade through reams of "Tonybee-esque" prose, you could do worse than check out Mark Steel in today's "Indy".
@13th Duke:Excellent idea, and what a shame a similar system wasn't in place in the Yorkshire of the 1960s, the bonny sound of the pipes playing "Flower of Scotland" and "Scotland the Brave" in utero, it would have saved my Jock mate no end of gentle leg-pulling from me about Group 9, "there's Nor way you're going to South Africa", "next time I see you, shall we go Dutch on the bill", "William Wallace, Alex Salmond, are you listening, we gave your boys a hell of a beating" etc.That poor wee man.
oops "Toynbee" not Tonybee!
Mark Steel - Blaming unemployment on the unemployed for "Choosing not to work" is an ideology that assumes unemployment rises and falls in line with how many people fancy being unemployed.@ The Duke and AllWas there really a headline in the Sun this morning approx--" That's Done, Now for the Hun" (On Radio4)?Now looking for the late Hugo Young's classic article on Brit Germanophobia.
@chekhovYou shouldn't have apologised. I'd assumed it was quite a good play on words - tonybee, her darling Tony B.
@frog2Did you see my answer yesterday? I'm near Dieppe, but off back to Paris in an hour or two.
@frog2It was the Star. There's a picture here.Can't find the Hugo Young piece, although there are references to it all over.
Ah, the Daily Star. Published by Richard "Dirty" Desmond's Northern and Shell Media. Run under the careful aegis of Private Eye regular Peter "Mentally" Hill, until his elevation to the Daily Express, and now in the careful and fragrant hands of Dawn "No relation" Neesom.
So Osborne's "tough but fair" budget actually takes from the poor to give more money to the banks.Who'd have thought it?
"So Osborne's "tough but fair" budget actually takes from the poor to give more money to the banks."And corporations have a nice tax cut. Shouldnt really be a surprise, most of the Tory bench have lucrative directorships etc, of course corporations must have a tax cut.
@Spike Gotcha . 'Normandy' is such a big area ,almost Foreign Parts for me . Not that long ago people from that far away were still called 'Parisiens' around here ...On Germanophobia, no luck, I found this tho --"The English play dirty, cloaking their cruel barbs under the guise of humour … Similarly, we can’t console ourselves with the polite fiction that the many clichés and stereotypes directed towards us are intended humourously. As the Berlin anglicist Hans Dieter Gelfert correctly noted, after sport humour is the most important vehicle through which the English relieve their aggressions. The English have developed into an art form the ability to pass off certain deeply-held opinions as merely ‘tongue in cheek’ banter. Irony has an intrinsic advantage. It enables the user to retreat behind a screen of humourous intent should something be challenged, and to protest that it was only meant as a joke. Anyone still taking offence can always be disparaged as lacking in a sense of humour."http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/krautbashing/I know exactly how the Duke feels on that. The Germans living here or with holiday homes are well accepted, and I've never heard stupid remarks. One lot even invited all their neighbours for the 60th Anniversary of the Normandy Landings . One old man comes back every year to see the family he was billeted with. A colonel in the German Army, whose father commanded the Hillman Battery on the coast near Caen, is there for the ceremonies too.Real history is so much more interesting than mythology.
An 'unshackled' David Beckham speaks out!Click on the Apres Match David Beckham video. It's controversial stuff!
ScherfThe video seemingly won't run on my machine, which is a shame, at the end of the day. Obviously, I was looking forward to hearing the thoughts of the Housewives' Favourite, to be fair.In other news... the bloke commenting on the England game yesterday was rubbish. And poor old Lawro seems to be getting confused - 39 caps for the Republic, and he's still talking about England as "we".When will "we" ever learn?
Companies of Riot Police are protecting the french squad from their 'supporters', and Sarko has cancelled a meeting with NGO's to receive Thierry Henry at the Elysée .Couldn't make it up !( The public radio participating in the nationwide strike against the Pension Reforms, so heard on a private one.)The front page of Libé worth a look today.Two of our most satyrical and cruel public radio journalists have been fired-- links to their ' Best of...)
http://www.liberation.fr/I'lll have to look up to html my links, apols.
Morning allthe best I've heard so far was the press conference with Landon Donovan blubbing and saying that the goal scored in the 90th min symbolised that there was still "good in the world".....jeeze get a fucking grip man.......now how will Italy do? will they pull it out of the bag or will they be packing them...?
Quick drive-by and no time to catch up.Read most of budget speech but gave up when it was clear that George Osborne was not going to take to the skies to shoot down the invading alien space-ship.However, for all his tongue-poking-through-lips calculations and bizarre old witch rune-reading, did he mention in the figures the pay-back from the banks?Surely, since he is planning for the next five years, there should be some point during that period when the banks start to pay back the money stolen from us by the government on their behalf.Perhaps there should be a campaign across the internetz:When do the banks pay us back?They are going to, aren't they?They haven't just stolen the money, have they?
Scherfig:I was feeling really down in the dumps this morning, that video cheered me up. OK - DB has motivated me - I'm off to do 500 press ups - on my fingers ;0)
Morning guys!Thought I'd spread a little laughter before we get down to it this morning!Just got the post had a 'message' from Co-operative Insurance which reads:-Mrs Tanner, could we help you protect your pride and joy for less?I think they mean my car (which I don't have!)Any other (polite) suggestions? ;-DReminds me of the e-mails I used to get inviting me to get extensions for something else I don't have!
Oh, just following Spike's link from above, it seems that banks are going to be better off and intend to avoid paying any levies or taxes on their wonderfulness:Analysts reckoned banks would minimise the impact of the levy. Mark Jenkinson, of consultants Capco, said: "Any levy would encourage banks to find ever more innovative ways to move assets off their balance sheets."They could do this by setting up separate vehicles or by shifting operations to less-regulated financial entities such as hedge funds."This could create a new 'mirror' banking system – which would increase risk in the financial system."Crutchley also expected banks to minimise their tax bills through "balance sheet management, group restructuring and deleveraging".Phew! What a relief!We should all be very aware that if anyone starts mucking around with expecting banks to actually pay anything back to society, the universe will explode.Lucky escape there, then.
frog2 - ah, wondered what that was about, it was on the news yesterday but i didn't get what they had initially said...take it truth was spoken to power a little more than power was comfortable with? or budgetary restraints, depending on your angle (heheheh)mind, bought l'equipe yesterday. blimey.
annetan - oh my word! there's a pet insurance / mrs slocombe gag in there somewhere...
You can insure your pride and joy?I want self respect insurance, a drunken night out should ensure me a massive payout. ;)
usiniif you're around what's your take on FIAT?
Glad everyone seems in good spirits today. Unfortunately, 'tis all doom and gloom with me today :(
What's up La Rit?If you look on Waddya you will see Imogen complaining about the bad treatment she has received since getting her C, that might cheer you up. x
@gandolfoDid you see Umberto Bossi's suggestion that Italy had already bribed Slovakia to fix today's match, and that we'd be seeing lots of Slovaks in Serie A next season?After a while, he said it was just a joke. Forza Padania!
Peterjyep....he's a loose canon....but let's face it he could well be right!!!! ;)
Jen:It's the Tories - and the budget I think.... an impending sense of DOOM is washing over me :(I'll check out Waddya though - seeing dear Immie getting a pasting should do the trick!
jennifera30FFS! They've given the illiterate bubble-head a blue sticker?!As I predicted, it is there to make the stupid scum who try to venture above the line to join their elders and betters simply look ridiculous.It is a mark of shame, a flashing neon sign saying: "Look at this fuckwit."Anyway, for those who still visit and post, perhaps someone could plead and pester Ms Reed to get someone to write an article about when the banks start to pay us back and why the spotlight on the machine-gun tower has been turned away from the money-men and focused straight into the blinded eyes of the poor.Perhaps Imogen Black could knock something out.Or the other no-mark, something like Sian Anderson[?]
@ La RitImogen is at 72 recommends at DLA now , wonderful ! Read Anne wollenberg's reply,5.29PM maybe you'll feel better .@ PhilippaBThey were really vicious, I'll miss them . Follow libé links for example. The pisstake of the IMF boss DSK just before he came in the studio was quite something.
Jen"I want self respect insurance, a drunken night out should ensure me a massive payout. ;) "Were I to sign up to that, the premiums would be a killer.no no-claims bonus for philippa....
jen nice risposte on Waddya..........
Pure fanaticism:"Yes JayReillyLet's all aim for the bottom. Lets destroy wealth. You are a a fanatic. You are a destroyer. A grinch. You look down, not up. GET OFF YOUR KNEES AND GET OUT OF YOUR PITY AND ENVY. Get off your backside and start producing and lift everyone up.This system has destroyed production, and we have become a nation of benefits scroungers and selling houses and hamburgers to each other."
I don't read waddya any more but do file some people in my favourites to see what they are up to . Concentrates the pleasure and appreciation of reading the wisdom of some, and the ignoble delight of LOL's at others. "I wasn't saying that those on DLA are workshy - I was saying that they are differently abled and may just need different help or even different types of work and work expectations,"not just consigning to the scrap heap of DLA""She still hasn't read the article properly ! My all-time favourite is still -It is precisely this malicious revisionism that deserves the most fulsome derision.
Gegen has just posted that there is no reason why those on DLA can't think about doing voluntary work, can these people fecking read.It is so telling that they see the word disabled and assume that the person is unemployed.
Afternoon all@chekhov-re yesterdays post i more or less agree with Anne,s views.But i can see where you,re coming from.@scherfig-nice one!@jen-had a sneeky peek at Imogen threatening to go all'Violet Elisabeth Bott' over her cock-up on the Anne Wollenberg DLA thread.Why doesn,t she just admit she skimmed through the article too quickly and got the wrong end of the stick?We,ve all done it FFS.
Frog2:Thanks for alerting me to the illiterate dribblings of Imogen. Astounding, she is incapable of constructing a sentence properly.Anne Wollenberg's reply was biting - fab stuff!
"Anne Wollenberg's reply was biting"I cant find the article, someone link it for me pls?
Have just read Ms Wollenberg's masterly skewering of the reading comprehension impaired. Restores my faith, that does.
PaulToo right we have all done it, if it had been me I would have gone back to the thread and apologised for my misunderstanding.Or would I have made myself look even dafter by complaining about the invasion of my personal space via an email received via an address I publically posted, then gone on to keep defending my position?It's such a tough choice isn't it?
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I think PCC knocked Imo"C"gen on the head with this classic on the Wollenberg thread:"For fucks sake we should bring in a special benefit for the thick - there'd be thousands of you on it."
JayIf you,re interested Ms Black continues digging ad nauseam on waddya.Watch and weep-with laughter!
having looked over the thread I see I have got the wrong end of the stick in one sense Laughter Therapy definitely .
Couldn't resist a dig on Waddya..... mind you, she's so thick-skinned I'm sure it will just wash over her.
One might even say she has a disability?
@frogcertainly can't spell THEIR..... ;OOOO)
Tripty on the DLA thread....@imogenblack - read the fucking article.
jenI don,t want to keep flogging this one but i wonder what Bru,s views on DLA are?Maybe that the allowance should be used to do the nails of people who are in a coma?:-)
Now I am going to admit that not having read any of Imogens stuff before I was worried that I was having a knee jerk reaction (everyone else is having one so I don't see why I shouldn't) to what I had read about her on here.The GCSE Bloody Sunday stuff was a borderline case, I felt a bit shabby laughing at her but this has set my mind at rest.I noticed her comment yesterday and though it (along with many others) was stupid but I would have left it there if she hadn't have gone on Waddya whinging.
Had a look at waddya - why oh why are intelligent and informed posters banned while the willfully stupid are promoted ATL ?It is stupidity and lack of comprehension will bring this country finally crashing down. Am I right in remembering that Imogen draws benefits during 'resting' times ?
gandolfo,speaking of princesscc. She's one of the very few contributors who I will go and have a look at what they've been posting in the last 24 hours.As much as I hate fawning praise, you really should check out her last few contributions. As well as the rest. In the same way that Woody Guthrie had "This machine kills fascists" written on his guitar, princesscc's user profile should read "This poster knocks swivel eyed twats into a cocked hat. "She's indefatigable and tireless and I doff my cap.
PaulWell obviously people who can't do their own nails or hair, they might have physical disabilities or just choose nasty styles, should be entitled to DLA to pay for personal stylists.I think we can all agree on that.
Leni:It's a crime against reason. "Am I right in remembering that Imogen draws benefits during 'resting' times ?"She most certainly does. Clearly she believes that she is 'fully entitled' to get JSA, but that someone with a disablility isn't entitled to assistance from the State to live a normal life - whether in or out of work.
Morning all......Gandolfo,It's funny that Landon Donovan should say that, because when I saw him score, I remember thinking the exact opposite.(And Italy'll go through, I suspect, with a bit of 'help' from one of the officials..)Paul,lol, but you're getting confused. It's hair do's for those in a coma (terrible 'bed-head, dontcha know!?), and manicures for the clinically dead, who, you know, just need a bit of cheering up.
jenFair comment.Although when/if i make my living will it will clearly stipulate NO RESUSCITATION and NO MAKEOVERS.
DukeIndeed PCC is on my list of top commenters and I also admire her tireless commitment..
DukeDitto your comments on PCC.@Afternoon James.
James well at 4pm guess where I'll be.... walking the dog...PaulLOLnow Anne Wollenberg is on Waddya....
Gandolfo:I'll third that. PCC is a shiny-star-like person with guts. I respect and admire her as a poster very much.
Actually having said that I hadn't read much of Imogens' stuff I do remember her telling everyone how even though she was living on the breadline she wouldn't claim benefits because she could look after herself.I think she said she could get promo work whenever she wanted (I could do that if I was young and beautiful too ;) ) and couldn't reconcile claiming benefits when she was able to look after herself.Seems like she now has been claiming benefits so I don't know where that leaves her argument.The reason I remember it is because I wanted to smack her around the head for assuming that everyone had the same opportunities that she had.
jen:"I wanted to smack her around the head for assuming that everyone had the same opportunities that she had"Ah, the surety of the self-righteous and blessed.
well news from doomFIAT have well and truely screwed their workers at the FIAT plant in Naples basically blackmailing them into accepting longer hours, reduced breaks, reducing the possibility of strike action, reducing sick entitlement and locally agreed contracts....(effectively against the Italian constitution) or lose their jobs. 36% of workers voted against it the others for... Divide and rule and using the crisis as an excuse to turn back industrial relations to the dark ages....and now they are saying that they might not actually invest the 700million euro promised into the plant...test ground for the future of industrial relations in Italy.....me thinks
Yes PCC is who I want to be when I grow up. :)Just kidding but I think I have said before that it isn't only the quality of her posts I admire it is her perserverance and turn of phrase.
Jen:she's like pacman - unstoppable chomping through ignorance and stupidity ;0)
Gandolfo:God that's depressing.me fella heard the Fire Fighters demonstrating today against pay cuts - vuvuzelas leading the charge!
Sign me up for the PCC Appreciation Brigade.Still working through the Wollenberg thread - she is brilliant. Swashbuckles onto thread; dragon bodies piling up all around.
I see my 'C' stands for 'clueless' quip has been removed.... poor old Imogen she is getting a pasting.
Ok Theresa May written statement.....civil liberties my arse......."The government has today laid an order to renew the existing 28-day maximum period of pre-charge detention for a time-limited period of six months... It is vital that we support the police and other agencies in their work to keep us safe from terrorism... At the same time... we are also committed to safeguarding the rights and liberties of the public... Both parties in the coalition are clear that the 28-day maximum period should be a temporary measure and one that we will be looking to reduce over time."
LaRitImogen has over 70 recs. This suggests ignorance, stupidity as well as hatred and indifference have firm footholds in our society. It's really about the kind of society we want to build. does a poor family feed one child at the expense of the other or do they try to share available resources ? These same people who scream self importantly against cruelty to children and the failure of SS to protect them are actually proposing this is the best way to run our society. Starve and mistreat some to the benefit others while refusing to hold the gvt. and its agencies to account for the inevitable resulting tragedies and wrecked lives. They are ruled by an illigical sentimentally and a skewed vision of their own moral superiority. They are the ones with the sense of entitlement they ascibe to the unemployed or disabled.
@Leni:"Imogen has over 70 recs. This suggests ignorance, stupidity as well as hatred and indifference have firm footholds in our society."To me it suggests that over 70 people who chose to read the article on CiF recommended her post.Personally I'm not sure you can extrapolate from that to the millions of people who've never even heard of CiF, except possibly as a popular brand of bathroom cleaning product.Proportion, Leni, proportion.
MontanaCan we change the banner to readAGAINST the plain thuggish and thick ?
Guys, you're wasting too much time on Imogen, so let me join in too :0). She's as thick as two short planks, and she should probably just be ignored. Her huge ego just forces her to post inane nonsense on every thread she can manage to get to when her boss isn't looking. The funny thing is that when she was working, she was posting 40-50 times a day, and when she became unemployed she posted a tearful farewell to Cif because, being unemployed, she wouldn't have time to comment any more! (And what other well-known thickoes does that remind you of?) Anyway, she disappeared from Cif for several months, but was eventually enthusiastically welcomed back by all the other two-brain-celled luvvies. (I also have a slightly perverse theory that Imogen repeatedly looking at her own 'actress' professional photo-shoot on Cif with the big blue C beside it gives her a little sexual frisson.) btw, jennifer, don't let her get to you - you're worth a hundred of her sort.
lenimostly stupidity, or rather lack of reading comprehension skills . Somehow if very many in a society can accept germanophobia, they are also liable to swallow bullshit from the Press and politicians.On immers herself she obviously has her share of good intentions, but handicapped by poor education etc. Easily led... Must out in the sun now, mow a few lawns
OK SwiftyYou are right I hope. Cif brings out the worst in me - causes a depressed and angry response which is not conducive to clarity of thought.
Leni:I'm flabbergasted at the number of recs for her comment bourne of complete stupidity and ignorance, but as you say,these attributes have firm footholds in our society. You are bang on about the 'sense of entitlement' too. They sit there in their gilded cages doling out venom, spite and judgement on those who have the audacity to be poor and vulnerable. My god, we have a very long way to go to restore the balance in this country.
Leni about your last point, those who are screaming most about benefits, charity and helping others are those who are most vocal about overseas aid.'Why are we sending money abroad when there are people in need here' they say, do you think they would approve of the overseas aid budget being spent on the needy here or would their heads explode.It is the same with those who use the burka and womens rights to have a go at islam, they don't give a fuck about the starving either here or abroad and they don't give a fuck about womens' rights' they will just use anything to prove their point.I wondered why all the Turkey/Kurd stuff recently until I realised it could be used to defend Israel (yes I am slow ;) ).I am starting to think that most people are basically shit.
Scherfig:Biting. You are Cruella de Ville ;0)"(I also have a slightly perverse theory that Imogen repeatedly looking at her own 'actress' professional photo-shoot on Cif with the big blue C beside it gives her a little sexual frisson.)"I was thinking that too - she just LOVES herself. btw:Jessica Reed is now defending her on waddaya....I said if the quality of her posts matched her ego, I'd lay off her a bit.
Jen"I am starting to think that most people are basically shit."Amen to that. It's kind of liberating when you accept that though, I find!;0)(On a completely different note, I'm seriously considering asking somebody who posts on CiF to ask AnneW to marry me. She's freakin' awesome!!)
@Leni:I'm possibly of a more optimistic and sunny disposition than some and no doubt all the worse for that, but frankly I just don't buy the argument that a lot of the crap posted on CiF both above and below the line is in any way actually reflective of the views of the wider Great British Public. I think all you can say is that the comments reflect the views of the individuals who post the comments.Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good froth as much as the rest of you folks, but at the end of the day, Brian, it's the Guardian, for crying out loud.
Swifty that is the point, the Guardian is supposed to be at the caring end of things.If this is the best we have to offer then we are fucked.
Has Anne W (who I agree is fantastic) got some form of Narcolepsy?I always thought that was a myth (shame on me) if she has that must be hellish to live with.
jenn,"the Guardian is supposed to be at the caring end of things"Is it though? If you'd've asked me two years ago I'd've agreed in a heartbeat, now I think maybe it's for those that like to think they're at the caring end of things..........
JenIt seems so, given her posts thus far!
Hi Dott, long time no see. :)Hope you are well.I agree having read Cif a lot that it isn't actually caring at all.Coming from a place where I didn't bother with newspapers at all, apart from my Mams Daily Mirror sometimes, I might be just naive but I always think of the papers by how they are represented by the other papers (doh).I hope the Guardian used to be better.
@jennifer:No, what I'm saying is, I think it's a mistake to extrapolate from the sort of person who rails on and on about e.g. disability benefits on CiF to wider society.For all I know, there may well be millions of people out there who really think disabled people should be gassed or whatever, but you can't know that from the fact that over 70 people recommended Imogen's post.All you can know is that over 70 people agreed strongly enough with her to hit the recommend button. There may have been 12,407 people who vehemently disagreed with her comment.Or there may have been 6.
"Is it though? If you'd've asked me two years ago I'd've agreed in a heartbeat, now I think maybe it's for those that like to think they're at the caring end of things.......... "Lot of truth in that i think, Dot.
Some thoughts on Swifty's comment.I don't rant on cif - try to be reasoned and reasonable. This is cos I am naturally that way but most importantly I try not to give them something to resist , fight back against and therefore reiterate original point. Cif does not the whole world represent. Sites like Cif (as Chekhov said there are many of them ) can reinforce thinking and attitudes by persuading us all that our views are reinforced by thousands. Is this case ? How many are apathetic or indifferent. Is it indifference and apathy which rule the world rather than the malevolence we read so often on Cif ? Do the ideas presented on Cif - against which we argue - deflect us from the true state of things. Does Cif misrepresent the truth?Are we as narrow in our thinking and responses as those we oppose. What is the best way to defend , in this case, the disabled? Does Mam matter ?Finally swifty I am of a sunny disposition and a sheer delight to know !
Swifty I hope that you are right about the 12,000 but (from my experience only) I think that those who rail online are fanatics and the rest of us (I include myself when I am not ranting) are apathetic to an extreme degree.Those who are apathetic won't be bothered about anything until the blood stains their front doors (oh melodramatic).The idea that this mass of apathetic people are our protection from the fanantics is ridiculous.They are apathetic after all.
@SwiftyBoyI disagree with you.For sadly i think the level of ignorance and stupidity expressed on the AnneW DLA thread is reflected in the wider society.And highlights just how far the media has gone in setting the political agenda in this country.For it is the media that has been whipping the populace up into a frenzy over the issue of disability benefits.Promoting the myth for instance that 90% of those on disabilty benefits are capable of doing some sort of work.And conveniently forgetting that even if there were the jobs available many would remain unemployed because of employer ignorance.What i think is even more worrying is the extent to which our political classes are increasingly becoming reactive as opposed to pro active when formulating policies.And we seem to be edging ever closer to the nightmare scenario of a Simon Cowell style politics in this country.Where the media whips the populace up into a frenzy over the policies IT wants pursued.The populace are then invited to vote by phone or online on the top ten policies.The votes are counted,Graham Norton reads out the top 5 results in reverse order and the politicans then do as they,re told.And convince themselves that this is true democracy.
Hi Jen, Jay.I'm ok, hope you're both well too, I've been out spuddling in rivers, got myself a proper farmers tan, complete with bright white watch mark (I have to wear it to time my samples).I grew up reading the Guardian. I didn't even think it had an agenda (I thought everyone thought like that)until we started analysing newspaper writing styles in secondary school! I do think it's gone downhill in the last few years: I read an article or two in the online version every week or so and the weekend section whenever I'm at the parentals for the weekend every couple of months or so (Dad still buys it every day)
We called them builders tans Dott, my Dad was brown even in the winter (it might have been wind burn) but nothing he did ever got rid of those t shirt marks.I can still see him in his vest with a brown chest and forearms his white shoulders providing the contrast.
Despite the fact that Imogen Black seems to mainly work as a typist or telephonist, she has the X-Factor sense of entitlement that because she is young and attractive, the world of stardom must inevitably beckon, with all the material benefits which it implies.She posts frequently on CiF because she wants to be noticed and discovered in order to live the dream. In this regard, she is similar to others, even those who have a leaden, plodding input of stultifyingly boring opinions, which they still imagine are of such coruscating brilliance that the world has been waiting breathlessly to receive them and for which it is damned well not grateful enough.In terms of the reflection of CiF of the wider world, be careful when you imagine that it is the materially successful and secure who are the ones who bash the poor and less fortunate. Anyone really successful in the material world will not waste their time on spastic little CiF.It is mainly the poor bashing the even more poor because they are spinning like whirligigs trying to find someone to blame for their penury and keep missing the target, aided and abetted by the media and political classes.Since we have started this:1. I am of such a sunny disposition that they have had to build a local hospital to cope with all the people I have inadvertently blinded.2. PCC is distilled excellence.
You were not sunny last night Atomboy.x I hope that was an abberation (sp).God if I actually had a life Cif wouldn't see me for dust.
jennifera30I was as sunny as ever.It was just that the government forced me to wear a lead suit to blunt my sunniness.I think the drink might also have played a part.I have started again, purely as a test.I was also visited during the night by a group of female cat-burglers, dressed in colour co-ordinated cat-suits and long, flowing hair.Stupidly, the government had also made me mute and invisible, so however hard I tried to attract their attention, they simply decided that they had visited the wrong address and eventually went on their way.
Hi DottRather like Bru I imagine my white bands among the tan are caused by the superabundance of gold and diamonds I wear about my person. A watch mark is so infra dig suggesting as it does a time constrained wage slave. Jenni - as to builders tee shirts - we really don't mention them my dear. Have you read Bru's latest on the perfume exhibition she visited. So much nicer than your dad's working clothes.
I am going to have to visit WADDYA again, with all these references to what's going on there.Could someone drop over a supply of sick bags and some tarpaulins first, though?
@Dot: what is spuddling?BTW: has anyone told Imogen to put her shovel down yet?
Jen/Dott/Paul/Leni/SwiftyI think that certain aspects of 'the media', particularly those which are open to comment/feedback, provide as good a yardstick as any for gauging the general 'mood'/feeling/understanding of society.If you see, for example, a 50/50 split in opinion, around an issue (and then factor in a bit of leeway/consideration for the particular 'slant' of that forum), it's likely there's a similar split in society.However, that said, these forums also have a habit of marginalizing/re-inforcing certain opinions also, meaning that, for example, if there seems to be a larger element in favour of x, it can temper/change the views of someone reading, who might not be so sure, and likewise, if a thread is overly populated by extreme views, it can reinforce or strengthen similar views in others.In my opinion, The Guardian has made a rod for it's own back, by previously banning, or otherwise alienating those with the ability, strength or knowledge to combat the more odious/extreme/dangerous/plain wrong views being expressed there by MaM et al.So it is worrying that some of The Guardian threads are descending into a kind of madness. Like many of us have said at some point, The Guardian used to represent a particular view/position, and if people look at the threads and see that x is now the prevailing view there, or that, at the very least, there's little in the way of resistance to a it, there is significant cause for concern.Or something.....
chekovYou were right earlier about the internet actually hobbling us by dissipating what might otherwise be groups which could focus and organise into smaller and smaller, inchoate and unco-ordinated factions without the critical mass to get anywhere.Think of the Tower of Babel, where everyone jabbered and nobody understood.Think of CiF as the best it will ever get.Start worrying.
Yesterday it was disability benefit, today it is housing benefit.Although actusally, I accept sometihng needs to be done about HB, although at the same time there needs to be a massive nationwide council house building scheme.Council houses were never meant just for the long term unemployed, the sick and the disabled. Normal working people expected a council house- for people of my generation, we simply do not expect it.They are paying up to £1000 a week in housing benefit for people in central London. You could get a three bed in many parts of the country for £150 a week. It also just seems a big scam to me, the landlord can charge whatever they want, the tenant gets the rent paid for by the state, essnetially it inflates the rental market.The soloution would be to do away with private housing altogether and only have council houses funded by welfare payments. Like I said, we would need to build many new council houses- millions even.
Also remember that it used to be possible for an ordinary working man to provide for and bring up a family on his wage alone.So, we have swapped one breadwinner able to provide for his family for both husband and wife having to work and probably (until the banks broke the financial system) at least one of them having to work in a second job.This is success?This is having it all?
afternoon everyoneI finally steeled myself and read the DLA thread in some down time at work - jesus wept! Even by cif standards it was appalling. I'm almost tempted to post something on waddya about it. As someone said, if being able to read without understanding a word counted as a disability, those morons could be minted!Hat's off to all those who fought the good fight. And agree about Princess. Having met her I can say she lives up to her reputation - brilliant woman.Meeting PCC would be a good reason for coming to the next Sheffield bash - she's good fun as well as being sharp when scything through shit.
JamesProblem is ,as you know,that people like Murdoch have a stranglehold on a big chunk of the British media.And a big chunk of the populace seem to be easily manipulated as far as many issues go.Puts people like Murdoch in a very strong position as far as opinion making goes.And who else in the media is prepared to face down the likes of the Murdoch empire when it claims to it,s millions of readers/viewers that many people on disability benefits are actually living the life of riley on YOUR taxpayers money.The Guardian certainly won,t from what i,ve seen.Hence the compliant politicians are getting away with treating the sick and disabled like shit because most of the populace don,t give a shit.However when the suicides etc start happening you bet the Guardian,for instance, will get on its high horse and start attacking the government for its harshness.@chekhov-have you seen Imogens latest offering on waddya.Pitiful!Even Jessica has in effect told her to shut up.
Bye Italy, are you interested Gandolfo?
Oi Jen - shhhh.It's not over yet!!
Come on it is nearly 96.
Now it is!!ciao, ciao!!
Back in bloody pre-moderation again..... can't be mean to Imogen anymore ;(
James/JenWTF are you talking about?:-)
Had a glance at WADDYA.Ms Reed goes up a small notch in my estimation (despite starting at position zero) for telling Black to shut the fuck up.Peter Bracken thinks he is the poster boy of CiF but is about as thick as Imogen Black and, if anything, a less capable writer.Has Seaton gone across the water yet?
Paul we were talking the Italy match.I have nothing against either the Italians or French but I do love to see them get kicked out, it may be their complacency, same for England.
Just popped back for a break. My bank called earlier to tell me I was 16 Euros overdrawn and should they transfer from my savings account, didn't want me to be lumbered with charges.Is that normal :)PS I expect we're mostly over 26, anybody not made a fool of themselves at that age ?
Can't see the new waddya..... wish I'd read this before, I've just had a 'personal message' from CiF about my naughtiness and keeping it in check
laRitAre they out to get you? What did you say that was so 'offensive'? If you why not others who also bashed Imogen?
Peter Bracken is not a less capable writer.He has difficulty expressing the extent of his transendental visions of a non ephemeral actuality of reality.
Anybody know when the last time the previous tournaments finalists went out in the first round?(I'm mainly looking at you Duke and Pipster...)
La RitournelleDo you mean the CiF moderators now condescend to actually communicate with the riff-raff, with or without provocation?
jennifera30Perhaps, but writing is about communicating ideas.If you have sent your readers into a coma of boredom after your first two words, you have failed.
PS frog2's comment above about the bollarky shitdribble comments of, er, Peter Bracken:My all-time favourite is still -It is precisely this malicious revisionism that deserves the most fulsome derision.Wait for him to find an opportunity to use "condign."
At least you were put in pre mod for a good reason La Rit. ;)
Leni:I'm not sure. I have a funny feeling that some folk watch my comments like a hawk and complain about me if I step out of line - some like ArdennesPate, who has said some pretty monstrous things to me, and some like the uber-Zios who 'outed' me on CiF and HP. It's the only explaination I can think of. But to stick me in bloody pre-mod is a bit bloomin' rich.
I was kidding Atomboy I think he is a terrible writer.Or maybe I think he is a troublesome elitist parabalistic non sense maker of an issue based bore.
LaRitWell, I was thinking of going back to CiF, but you've just reminded me why I left in the first place!!
Atomby:"Do you mean the CiF moderators now condescend to actually communicate with the riff-raff, with or without provocation?"It wasn't a moderator, it was a someone from CiF staff who gave me a gentle and humorous warning.... don't know whether to be chuffed or worried....
jennifera30: that's preposterous hyperbole!
LaRitAny chance of copying and pasting it here?(Obviously, your call...!)
Hi James,I've been really down on it to be honest. Pre-mod is a bloody pain in the arse....no doubt my lurking enemies on ShiteWatch will be celebrating with the Kosher wine and a few Matzos ;0)
Since you have been pre modded before La Rit I don't doubt for a second that you are right.
James Dixon: Boris Becker me thinks.
James:I was going to do that and then had 2nd thoughts as it may have been a personal decision to warn me I could be banned as I was sailing close to the wind. Happy to e-mail it on though - what do you think?
Would a new name be worth it La Rit (I can understand why you are attached to that name, I would be too) but Cif really needs you around.Maybe if you started again you would get more leeway.
JenFFS Jen i,m having to get me dictionary out so i can have at least some idea of what you,re talking about.It,s this fcuking humidity-raddles me brain :-)
Thanks chekov I have been aiming for vicious hyperbole. ;)
Jen:It seems some comments are too close to the bone and wrankle because promoting folk like Imogen ATL makes it look like CiF staff have made a bad judgement in doing so.
LaRitYou,ve been put in pre-mod for asking whether IB,s C stands for clueless?
jennifera30I know you were kidding. Your irony was loud and clear and it was my clumsiness. I'm going to use the bottle of gin as an excuse.La RitPerhaps something has started to change. There was a time when you could email the mods and get, as you say, humorous and intelligent replies. You could even get something which rose just above plodding idiocy from Seaton.Oh, well. So, if they just change completely the direction they have pursued for the last couple of years, CiF might be worth visiting again.
Chekhov,What, the finalist thing!?(I probably should have specified that I meant in le futebol mondial)=0D
Paul that was my impression of Bracken :0Oh and it doesn't make any sense I was hoping I wouldn't be challenged. ;)
Been toying with the new name for a while now.... I just know that the very mention of me moniker in some circles sends some people into a frothing rage....
Damn you Atomboy and your ability to spot obvious sarcasm, I will have to try harder.
Damn you chekhovYou just beat me to preposterous hyperbole yet another brackenism to treasure. off to work again ...
Paul:"You,ve been put in pre-mod for asking whether IB,s C stands for clueless?" and mentioning that if her comments matched the size of her ego, she might get a bit more respect.... daft. AtomBoy:I wonder if as Seaton's ship has sailed, things might be taking a different direction? I was completely taken aback by it tbh.
jennifera30Don't worry. Give me another hour or so and I won't even be able to spot the screen.
LaRitWell, I was thinking that it might be worth keeping a record or that maybe it'd be worth putting up on Atomboys's excellent CiF moderation watch!?(perhaps you're right though, it is possible that people are being punished for stuff said here though).If you meant e-mailing it on to me, I'd be interested in seeing it, if you don't mind.It's jamescisvAThotmailDOTcomCheers.
La Rit: did ask them if the C stood for cretin?Or were you just checking on thier moderating policy?
La RitI cannot help, I'm afraid. Apart from so many mentions causing me to pop over there today - literally for about thirty seconds - I never go there any more.If enough people said it had changed, I would give it a go, but I am not in any expectation that this will happen.As far as I am concerned, it is a pile of shit.
James: sorry, thought you were talking about tennis!
You ok Atomboy?Why the heavy drinking all of a sudden?I have always been a heavy drinker so it is normal to me but I can't believe that you post what you do whilst being pissed.Has something really bad happened or are you always this way?
JamesThis is probably the feverish activity before the snoring stupour, but I have not bothered much with that lately, but if there is a need, I will.Again, I will also get the other thing going ASAP.(Tr. "As soon as I stop drinking and actually do something).
LaRitIf you choose to e-mail the mods back it might be an idea to personalise it by addressing the e-mail to either Adam,Isabella or both of them.They,re the two mods i,ve had dealings with and they both came across as fair-minded and friendly.
jennifera30I am essentially a non-drinker these days. I used to drink a lot but, for years, have gone through, basically, not drinking at all. Perhaps something at Christmas or occasionally, but essentially simply not drinking.I thought I would give it a go.It's great! It makes you angry and you stop pussyfooting about with faux politeness.I am also not a polite, look-at-the-label wine drinker.I get down to basics with Special Brew or Tennants Super and a bottle of cheap gin or whisky, like the chaps on the park-benches.Wanna fight?!
Paul I never actually asked to be let back in, I checked my email one day and there was one from Isabella to say I would be let back in on the Monday.I think that is as close as they come to a sorry.The reason I was banned was for personal abuse (which sounds likely).I do get carried away some times but I am pretty sure I didn't then.
Atomboy you know I would win. ;)
Yeah, but its getting hurt badly that counts.
@JamesFrance finished bottom of their group in 2002 after winning it in 98. It must be some kind of cyclical thing.
Regarding Peter Bracken, I thought that the 'two minute hate' on here recently was a bit disappointing. I rarely agree with any of Peter's political opinions, but he can occasionally be thought-provoking if people are actually willing to listen a bit and re-examine their own views. And that's not a bad thing at all. Admittedly, he hasn't really changed my views about anything basic, but that's probably because he's just a bit wrong about most things. I do think, however, that as fellow-bloggers we should extend him a bit of basic courtesy, no matter how much we disagree with his views. On the question of his writing style and especially his '24' article, I'm afraid that I find Peter's literary efforts banal, turgid, boring, self-conscious and extremely 'derived' (although not in a good way). It was interesting that the praise that he got from BTL'er's for his 'very well-written' piece was all from 'right-wingers'. Literarily speaking, I'm as absolutist as good old Harold Bloom on this one, and I think Peter would probably agree - some things are better than other things. And some writing is just crap. But then we're not all James Joyce or Eric Blair. Although some of us don't even pretend to be. And some of us do. And most of us shouldn't. :0)
PeterYeah it must be, I was asking the other day what the odds for France winning the next one, right now, are.Might be worth a punt!!
JenMany a time i,ve shat a brick or 6 on CIF too terrified to post cos you,ve been laying into all and sundry.Because as you know i,m a pussycat and i,m into peace and love and all that bollocks.:-)
@AtomboyDrink. Isn't it brilliant? I am experimenting with cocktails, with some interesting effects. First, I discover that I am able to keep several bottles of booze in the house without drinking them all instantly. Second, gin slings are an excellent anaesthetic for England games. And third, pace Chekhov, bloody marys are good at bedtime and can also form at least two of your five-a-day.
BTW: how do you highlight words in bold font?I know how to do it on Word but I can't find the function on the tool bar on here.
@chekhovStick angle brackets round a 'b' at the beginning of the text you want to bold, and angle brackets round a '/b' at the end of it (missing out the single quotes). That'll do it.
scherfigAll fair enough.I think of Peter Bracken like a mildly precocious fourth-former, very assured with his ideas, which all seem to be borrowed from other people, who are quoted with such astonishing recommendations as: "As Perriwig says so perspicaciously..."He is entitled to his ideas. He is entitled to express them. He is entitled to be utterly and completely wrong and still believe he is impregnably right.I have never found sleeping to be a problem but if I ever suffer from insomnia, I shall look up Peter Bracken's back-catalogue as a sure and sudden cure.
Oh shit, is Sherman McCoy Bracken embarrassing himself again? Haven't been on Whaddya today.@frog2Was your "malicious revisionism" quote from Bracken to me? Or does he say that to all the "deluded left"?
Paul"Problem is ,as you know,that people like Murdoch have a stranglehold on a big chunk of the British media.And a big chunk of the populace seem to be easily manipulated as far as many issues go.Puts people like Murdoch in a very strong position as far as opinion making goes.And who else in the media is prepared to face down the likes of the Murdoch empire when it claims to it,s millions of readers/viewers that many people on disability benefits are actually living the life of riley on YOUR taxpayers money.The Guardian certainly won,t from what i,ve seen".(Sorry, I just noticed your response)No, they won't, I agree. Particularly if they're hoping to find their own version of 'Uncle Rupe' to bail out their sorry asses, having pissed away most of their own credibility and alienated most of their best contributors.And, at least with the mediacorps/Fox affiliated shitenicks, you know what you're getting, whereas the Guardian seem to be using a once respected reputation to covertly peddle all manner of bollocks in order to attract their particular sugar daddy/Saviour.In my opinion, of course.... =0D
PeterJFuck me! I can do this and enhance my health? What a lovely lifestyle choice!I used to go to a pub and provoke the landlord into supplying me with a never-ending stream of cocktails, Singapore Gin Slings being one of the loveliest.Er, can't remember much else about it.
jen and Jamesre Italian demise----just passed on your best wishes... :))they didn't look too happy (gawd what a bleedin' relief at least they can't go on now about being world champions.....4 years has been more than enough!!)james *remember* your "friends" in Milan....i think they may call!!!!!
GandolfoHaha - I think they're more likely to want 'a word' with Mr Howard Webb, Referee, who, despite convention, only managed to add on six minutes of extra time, as opposed the the x needed to score the last goal.
gandolphCommiserations on Italy's exit from the WC. Will there be ructions similar to the French ones do you think?
PeterJso i guess we'll be seeing the slovakians in seria A next season....Jamesok being english and the fact webb is english I'll keep stum.....;)LaRitcan't believe that they premodded you for that "C" thang I saw it as a stroke of genius, 'moge should be in premod for well being 'moge...
JamesAgreed.You do get a sense that they are half-heartedly going through the motions when it comes to addressing anything contentious.Like they know they should be taking up the fight on behalf of the sick,for instance,but don,t want to put themselves on a collision course with any potential saviors/sugar daddies.So any stand they do take often comes across as either too little too late or totally lacking in conviction.
Someone just asked how much Guardian contributors get on the waddaya thread.Answer..if you're a middle-class liberal, you get a lovely warm glow and something to impress your friend Tamsin with..if you're working class..or ever were, it's a flat rate..thirty pieces of silverbunch of fucked up nannying cunts...and just in case any fucked up nannying cunts from Brussels are reading this and want to jump in with jealousy / bitterness accusation; just remember sweetheart, I could nip back whenever I like, make you look a total imbecile again, amass a 'cult following' within a week or two and in a handful of posts outshine your entire back catalogue..so don't push your luck.
Sheff being non partisan I'm actually quite relieved... it has been a painful 4 years listening to this kind of thangno ructions Lippy the manager has already resigned and taken responsibility.....quite rare in Italy...frankly its the players who were really crap...
gandolfoCommiserations on the premature exit of Italy from the Cup.Let,s hope the shock and stress doesn,t cause Berlusconi,s hair transplants to fall out.La Dolce Vita does seem to have gone a bit sour!
PaulI think the transplants are superglued in...I'm sure that berluso would have turned it into his victory had they gone any further so my plan A has worked so far!! Plan B: get rid of the bastard ASAPLa Dolce Vita started going sour when the Italian middle classes took on the "cause" of the working classes in Italy and claimed it at theirs from the comfort of via Veneto and the "salotti" of the intellectual bullshitters!!
@gandolfoEven a Slovakian won't stay bribed these days. And, of course, English refs and linesmen are incorruptible. Given what the men will do unbribed...
Peter J: thanks for that!.I think I might have to celebrate that minor triumph with the reward of a G&T.
Gandolfo/PaulHair transplants?Is that what they are?I thought it was just a bit of 'residual' from having his head mostly up his own arse!!
OFFS: Imogen has picked up her shovel again!
Yes, here is the unadulterated, unmitigated, unalloyed brilliance of Imogen Black:jennifra - I was, as I have explained at length now, confusing DLA with diability benefit... I've apologised for that mistake. I know several people who have had thier lives zapped because the support to get back to work is not there for the disabled, they DO feel like they are on the scrapheap and that was my point, however badly placed or expressed it was.As for 'taking reposnsability for what I said' - happy to do so in the right forum, which would have been the thread itself... had I not been put off revisiting it by a snarky personal message.(btw - I don't actually feel espcially 'attacked' by anyone (esp you?!) - except by the e-mail sent to me personally - this is a forum for discussion and IMO there is no need to take anyones views here personally unless they actuially make it personal by opening a private discussion)(Ps - sorry Jess... couldn't let it go quite yet... will sush now!)Having not properly followed this and with no intention of doing so, is she complaining about taking arguments from one thread to another, when this is exactly what she has done, hoping to find a more supportive audience on WADDYA?Anyway, who cares?Who actually reads this shit anyway?
PS I think Sheff mentioned another meet-up in Sheffield.Has there ever been a meet in the lily-livered, effete and etiolated South East?
@AtomboyI could be persuaded into that. Effete as I am.