20 June 2010


Happy Father's Day!

It doesn't matter who my father was; 
it matters who I remember he was.
-Anne Sexton  


  1. The photo today is my father, grandfather and great-grandfather, some time in the spring of 1937.

    I see from yesterday's thread that Sheff was having problems putting up something on the UT2 and that others need info to put pictures on the Flickr site.

    Don't know why Sheff was having problems -- no one has been taken off the author list. Sheff, try clicking on your own name above one of your comments and see if you can get to the Dashboard there. I added a gmail account that I don't use any more as an author to UT2 and had no problems getting to the dashboard -- it should say "New post" in the upper right-hand corner of the screen.

    For any of the more recent arrivals, if you would like to be added to the author list for UT2 or add pictures to the Flickr site, e-mail me at:

    thewildhack at gmail dot com

    and I'll let get you added to the list & give you the log-in details for the Flickr account that we share.

  2. Hi All

    Montana--Good to see you back and posting , hope all is well and fine.

    Last day in Beantown, one more ballgame. Team is 5-0, playing very good ball at the moment.(better than England at the Mundial,the supporters will be asking for Sven back in charge)

    Paul--How you doing man? Been sporadically posting as I'm on holiday, so subject to limited computer time in hotel.

    James--Don't know if you ever visited Fenway Park, but it is a beauty. Built 1912 (We took a guided tour today) and very quirky and odd shaped. Must say one of the finest lawns I've ever seen. The Green Monster is quite a sight to see up close. All in all a somewhat religious experience for this old ballplayer. Very cool.

    Be home monday, talk to you all later.

  3. Morning all:

    Great photo Montana... I have a similar pic of my Dad aged 2 in the same year, sitting on the running board of an old car that looked like it had been nicked from the Anthill Mob!

    Hello Boudican! Sounds like you're having a good trip :) I always think of Boston as a gentile old-fashioned city - it would be nice to visit one day.

    A sad day for me today and may explain some of my discomfiture over the last few days - 10 years without my Dad. Father's day is painful for me still as he was dead exactly one month after I'd sent him what turned out to be his last ever Father's day card. He's very much in my thoughts today - so in his rememberance, I'd like to wish a very Happy Father's day to all the Dad's here on UT ;0)

  4. Speedkermit:

    Just to answer from yesterday. It was horrendous, the worst thing was being completely powerless and having my rights trampled over.... it was only the kindness of his Dad that saved the day really. As for those who were ruthless and cruel, I'm still not sure if they'll be invited to the Wedding, four years on there really has been no closure nor real discussion. A very difficult situation all around.

  5. Happy Father's Day to all Dads. And love and hugs to all those whose Dads are no longer with them. I am lucky I still have mine and will be pootling off in a min to cook him roast beef for lunch.

    I am counting my blessings....

  6. This..just in from our Belgian correspondent..

    "When I hate a place or a group of people, I simply walk and don't look back"

    oh yeah...and recall, at regular intervals, my stoicism in overcoming the cause of my hatred, throw in the odd knowing reference to the other member of my "survivors' support group" as we try and paint ourselves as ultra-chic Guardianista fem-lite icons who attempt to lord it over other, newer posters who've never been blooded in the heat of a battle with the misogynist hordes...and any suggestion that our relationship with the actualite has become a little warped and disjointed is another example of foul abuse...but other than that I just 'walk away'..only I don't really..I stick around and when challenged stick my fingers in my ears and scream "Phony misogynist cyberstalker..Not Listening" repeatedly until it stops...and my credibility is restored

    ..and that's why I'm so well respected as a poster and a human being by posters all over...erm..whassit called?...that place where kiz lives...only sometimes I think she doesn't really..sometimes I think she regrets ever backing me and my ludicrous claims but she can't back out now...so we're stuck with each other..two 21st century feminist warriors, personing the thin blue line which holds back the forces of barbarism from 'niceness', jaffa cakes and qualified self-delusion.

    "In fact a bit longer on this thread and I could qualify as a psychiatrist."

    Go for it sweetheart..."Custard Cream with your tea Monsieur?...anything you'd like to talk about? Relationship problems? Existential crisis? Misogynist urges?"

    "..erm..no thanks..just the tea'll do..milk..no sugar"

  7. Morning all,

    just reading through the Osbornes 'plan for pain' which is making me feel quite nauseous. Even that well known Communist mouthpiece, the Financial Times said on their lead article yesterday:

    Mr Osborne believes the public will be with him on Tuesday. But in spite of opinion polls showing that a majority accept the need for cuts in general, nothing has fully prepared people for what is about to land on their heads.

    If even the FT is saying this, how much do we believe Cameron when he says they will implement cuts that "protects the poorest and most vulnerable in our society."

    The Tory campaign is in full flow as the neo-liberal think tanks such Policy exchange ramp up the excecrable anti-public sector articles designed to spread the poisonous message that it was Government spending on public provision, be it 'ethnic diversity liaision non jobs' which they love to spout on about and welfare.

    No mention of the cost of Trident, of Afghanistan, of the money used to bail out the banks, of the impact of this on tax revenues as people were thrown out of their jobs, of tax evasion, of the alternative investment sector open only to the very rich.

    It was the public sector and the poor's fault

    As the saying goes "never waste a good crisis" and all over Europe, the bankers and the puppets that act as their mouthpiece and that created this crisis demand that the people of Europe pay the bill while pushing through pure neo-liberal financial ideology

    Greece was the first- remember the bullshit that it was 'the public sector and welfare' that caused their crisis, we are hearing the same in Spain where a Socialist Govt has just passed laws to denigrate workers rights and Portugal has slashed benefits.

    The entire continent is at the mercy of an ungovernable and unaccountable pack of financial wolves slavering over the last remnants of the flesh of the post war consensus.

  8. Sheff/Chin et al - son in law told me yesterday that he has seen a newly published book on Henry Moore's work which reproduced the photo of my father being sketched at the coalface in 1942 by Henry! He was named in it too.

    What a great pleasure. The Moore foundation have more than 250,000 photos that dad got selected is just an unexpected delight.

    The old bastard would have been much chuffed. Me dad's photo in the British Library and the Library of Congress and art libraries all around the world etc....he would have loved it. Me mam would have swooned.

  9. Just read Nick Cohen..nodded all the way through. I'll probably watch more telly over the next month that I will in the next 4 years... British programming anyway..except the X Factor, of course

    Right..I'll get my tiara...

  10. Great news re yer Pa Deanno! My Old man is still in hospital 5 weeks after a heart valve replacement op. He seems to take two steps foward then 2 back, 2nd op to drain fluid on the heart, another 'procedure' to drain more fluid, infections and complications... Still my sister saw him yesterday and reports that he's, 'much better' so fingers crossed he's on the mend. Tough day for me, at work 400 miles away, and he's not allowed a phone on his current ward. : (

  11. Your Grace

    Heard a piece on the news this morning about how the gov are likely to prioritise what miserable pittances they do decide to toss in our direction.

    Apparently they are looking to appease older people - who are now a huge 'group' and vote the most. So will there be support for things like pension credits and a cut in things like child benefits, family tax credits do you think?

  12. Having already solved the problem of mental illness (get an expensive hairdo, put on a nice dress, and take a walk in the park), the muppet from bruppet (TM :0)thaumaturge) has now solved the problem of homophobia - 'it's a fact that if you mix with a bohemian, artistic set (or the much-maligned fashion-set) you are very unlikely to have the type of problem you describe'. So listen up, all you nancy-boys - stay well away from real life if you want to be accepted and don't want to be beaten up for being gay.

    Hooray! Treble white wine spritzers all round!

  13. Half-decent piece on bloody Sunday by nick ross I don't agree with all of it, but he raises some valid points. Needless to say, it's a bit of a mess BTL with the usual whataboutery from the likes of bangorstu and torieboy.

  14. scherf

    'it's a fact that if you mix with a bohemian, artistic set (or the much-maligned fashion-set) you are very unlikely to have the type of problem you describe'

    I saw that scherf and had a chortle...but really it's a bit sad. I can't bring myself to have a hack at her as she seems so invincibly unaware of how much what she writes gives her away.

  15. "...invincibly unaware.."


    No sign of a response from speedkermit yet? Bloody typical. Can never find a copper when you want one.

  16. Hi Sheff,

    unsurprised to see that the generation of our society that gained so much from the post war consensus will be the last to feel the pain.

    I don't include everyone from that generation. My parents are part of it and have nothing to show in terms of property portfolios and high yield pension pots.


    unsurprising to see those two arguing the army cause. They're both hard right twonks who'll be delirious at Osborne's protection for 'defence' spending in the forthcoming austerity blitz.

  17. She's got a point though scherfig

    I've finally come to terms with my debilitating phobia of the working classes and tacky clothing by hanging around exclusively with Italian princes.

    I'm not as up to date as I could be..is 'Italian prince' a euphemism btw?...it should be if it isn't.

  18. Hank,

    your area of expertise. Did you see that letter to the Graun from various economists and tax experts expressing their ire at the upcoming cuts and a proposal for banking taxes?

    It's here on Richard Murphy's tax research blog dated June 19th.

  19. "Million pound a week!... and they played like a bunch of fuckin Italian princes"

  20. turm - fingers crossed for your dad our kid.

    My fathers day present from my kids was a blast from the past, a blackmailers delight. It happened thus.......

    When a couple or so years ago my elder son was to marry I was invited on the stag do. Since we were all saving to go to the wedding in Fiji it was a modest do, involving about 15 of his old mates dressed as nurses attending the test cricket match at Headingley. There on the famous Western Terrace we all became progressively ratted, as you do on a full day session.

    There was a point at which I stood on my seat and faced the appreciative Terrace to neck a pint in one. The crowd took to my bearded appearance which pleased them no end. Surrounded as I was by younger men dressed as female nurse the Terrace immediately stated singing ....."Shipman... Shipman where's me gran?" then a hushed silence as I put the pint to my lips then a loud "roar" of approval as it went down in one. All great fun, the Western Terrace are a legend when they are form.

    Unbeknown to to me some bastard videoed it and recently passed a copy to my sons' phones. I am in danger of loosing all family authority (what little I had that is).

    The bastards are now saying..."shall we do it this way dad or would you rather be on youtube?"

    Fucking kids - some fathers day I'm having.

    Sadly I don't have any moving pictures of my dad and precious few photographs, he always seemed to be the one taking the pics and thus is not in many of them. What few the family have are now at my daughters, but at least she has framed them and they are on her walls.

    I suppose one good thing is that we can now copy them easily and cheaply but in the past the black and white photos were quite tiny. But Montana's 1937 one above has reproduced well. It's a great picture.

    Both my grandfathers were dead before I was born. And I don't even have photo's of them (plently of stories though). In our family we do at least have one of my granddaughter with her mother, maternal grandmother and maternal maternal great grandmother.

    My father lived long enough to see my youngest son born and having inspected five other previous grandsons loudly pronounced that my youngest was the "one". He didn't mean favourite, he meant the sod who would grow to look him.

    I'm fucked if I know how the old bastard knew, but he was right my youngest is dead ringer from old photographs of me dad at his age.

  21. "Can never find a copper when you want one."

    what d'you expect from a shower of Italian princes?

  22. scherf

    Read that Nick Ross piece - pretty good I thought - except for his conclusion about prosecutions.

    The British Establishments attitude to all things Irish has always seemed spectacularly self serving, purblind and hysterical.

  23. And apparently Samuel Brittan, ancient Financial Times columnist and exponent of Thatcherism has accused Osborne and Cameron of being 'Whelk Stall Owners' and financial ignoramuses.

    In an article entitled Are these hardships necessary? he rails against the Osborne/Cameron agenda.

    When even Thatcherite stalwarts are questioning the impending austerity measures, you have to wonder and wonder hard at the forces behind Cameron and Osborne pushing this agenda.

  24. ".. 'it's a fact that if you mix with a bohemian, artistic set (or the much-maligned fashion-set) you are very unlikely to have the type of problem you describe'. So listen up, all you nancy-boys - stay well away from real life if you want to be accepted and don't want to be beaten up for being gay..."

    Didn't save Quentin Crisp a few thrashings. But it did get him the price of a ticket from NY to Manchester and his final resting place.

    Perhaps when Harrods the finest dept store in the world has it's next sale we could lure the Bru back and ambush her/him at a CiF champagne reception and then youtube it.

  25. Hank – (from yesterday)

    And that the poor fuckers in the private sector aren't losing out to us. They're losing out to their bosses

    Divide and rule. Same old shit

    Quite – whole of that post was bang on the money.

    Very busy trying to find a home that won’t pauperise me at the mo (the condems will do that anyway!). My last public sector job (adult basic skills tutor) paid a full time equivalent of £16,000 per year.

    I feel so greedy ;-)

    The trouble is an awful lot of private sector workers are buying into this sh*t. I’ll never forget the idiot who told me that my tax didn’t count because I was paid out of taxes. You’d swear he was giving me the money.

    I think I worked for it !

    People may keep their heads down for a while but when they realise that doesn’t work …

    Sadly I won't live long enough to see this lot in their graves

    Unless someone gets really desperate - which it might! Violence on its own won't sort it though plenty more of the buggers to take their place unfortunately.

  26. Interesting link Duke I must have missed it if you posted it before although the guy's face is familar...

  27. Your Grace

    When even Thatcherite stalwarts are questioning the impending austerity measures,

    No that is scary....When's the budget? Is it Tuesday? What the hell have they in store for us?


    Sadly I won't live long enough to see this lot in their graves

    I'm planning to hold on as long as possible, even propel some of them to an early one. Some serious dancing on said mounds is in order. Then I'll be happy to go.

  28. "...Violence on its own won't sort it though..." - perhaps not A42 but it may help lubricate the reasoning cells.

    I'd love to think the Bilderbergs et al are going to be debated/argued to a conversion..............but I know they are not.

    The only likely way the Brus of this world will stop the shopping is if they are asphyxiated in their own designer bags or hung by their own silk socks. The only way the Rothschild's et al all will stop the cuts is if they too are cut.

  29. morning all

    nice photo montana, thanks...

    Italian princes the Savoia's bunch of inbred imbeciles much worse than the Windsors....yes it's possible.
    Having walked out on "their people" during WW2 abandoning them to fascism they decided to ask, in 1997, for damages from the Italian state for being in exile for 54 years to the tune of 260,000 million euro. Needless to say they were ignored and princey went of and appeared in the Italian version of "come dancing" and won.....

  30. 260,000,000,000 fegg me gandolfo that is a lot of Euro!

    That's one thing about the Stalin dynasty I can't see them asking for ought similar. Thank god Hitler only had one ball.

  31. deano

    whoops 260 million

    but whatever, even 1 euro is taking the piss degenerates......

  32. If we cant have a proper inheritance tax regime can we have a proper heritage regime - only those who are without family and have been sterilised can stand as MP's.

    Hard times demand hard choices and sacrifices.

  33. "No sign of a response from speedkermit yet? Bloody typical. Can never find a copper when you want one."

    Response to what Hank?

  34. Deano - not necessarily against violence - its a matter of the difference between a riot and a revolution.

    The difference is of course leadership

  35. Hello again all....

    Just popping by to say wish I could get stuck in but the BBQ (on what is turning out to be a gloomy day weather-wise) i'm doing is going to be in full flow and I still haven't mopped the hall.


    a word to Turminder - my fingers are crossed for your Dad's recovery and I'm so sorry you have to be so far away, I know what that feels like.....


    Congrats on the picture of your Da' .... can I look it up in the British Library?

    Hope you're well young man! ;)


    I'm sure Speedy will be back to take up the challenge. Like you, even if I don't agree with him - he always makes me think.

    I'd like to pick his brains on excessive sirens and speeding through areas of London like some kind of demented occupation force. Yesterday in Brixton was expecially bad - as I came out of the tube there was a 'red alert' in full flow, I felt like I was under attack.

    Paul (from yesterday)

    Stoke Newington was notorious in the 70's and 80's for the number of black people who met their suspoicious end there. The Met - I'm convinced they're a bunch of dodgy bastards on the whole - they always seem to be acting as if they're coked up - esp. in the West End.


    didn't catch who you were talking about (kizbot?) very funny all the same.


    Thanks - you don't realise how much they mean until they're gone. Treasure them.

  36. He wants to know 'what you stand for' kermit, Hank is the lord high priest of righteous anger, and the scourge of all biscuit loving spam luvvie avatars. Shit or get off the blog he cries. Always criticising, he never seems to suggest anything concrete himself...

  37. Oh I see... FFS man, how long do you stay awake at night? It's no wonder you seem perpetually pissed off! The Revolution could come at any time I suppose...

    I haven't got time to sit on the psychiatrist's couch right now Hank, but I promise to shoehorn you into my busy schedule at the next available opportunity.

  38. "..My last public sector job (adult basic skills tutor) paid a full time equivalent of £16,000 per year..."

    My dear young miss - are you sure Anne? its a long long time since a LI in FE/AE was on £16k and normally if you scale the PT FE hourly rate to FTE it used to come out higher than a FT job accepting no pay in holidays etc etc.

    How did you calculate it? Annual income from part time FEd hours divided by 52? I'm sure your you will have a rational, honest and accurate method behind the calculation it's just that I'm curious. A long long time ago I was once a NATFHE Branch Sec.

    As you may know from recent exchanges, this damned language of ours can easily (in the eyes/ears of some) turn words of affectionate respect into turgid sexist abuse. With a little determination you might be called out for being misleading or manipulative in your use of "FTE" language. (I hasten to add not in my book you wont)

    I was sure that you told us here on UT that you were a lady in her early 70's a mere slip of a lass if you will pardon, what to some will appear as my sexist dribble.

    I'm way out of date but I would have hoped that if you were teaching about 20 years ago you might have been paid better. If not then I'm sorry and I do hope that you managed to get at least a little bit of pension out of your service.

    If my continuing banter with Scherf offends you Anne please say so and I will happily delete all the above and any previous comment of mine to you which may have caused offence. I have a genuine respect for you and your contributions.

    The Censor can as ever fuck off.

    Regards and good luck with the flat hunt hope you find something as nice as Sheffs for a few farthings. I sense that a lot of cities, outside the SE, have flats whose prices/rents are facing an uncertain future.


    "....not necessarily against violence - its a matter of the difference between a riot and a revolution.

    The difference is of course leadership..

    Class comment comrade.

  39. "The Revolution could come at any time I suppose..."

    Don't fall for it Hank..he's fishing...trawling comment sites for info...he'd have a right old feather in his cap if he could find out when it all kicks off..don't let him rile you..mum's the word.

    I'm just pissed off I won't be able to make Glastonbury this year.

  40. Well deano, since you bring it up yourself, do you think that it is appropriate to call a once-married woman of mature years 'dear young miss'? I don't (and not just on the basis of abuse of the English language), but that's only my opinion, anne can speak for herself.

    And if you keep sniping at me, deano, then I will continue to react and expose you as the patronising sexist, classist, racist hypocritical drunken fuckwit that you are. It's certainly not 'censorship', you have every oppoortunity to reveal your idiocy to all and sundry, and you continue to do so on a daily basis.

    btw, I don't consider you calling me a mick or a paddy 'banter'. If you ever had the guts to say that to my face (which I doubt), I'd probably headbutt you. (You know what those violent stupid bog-trotters are like, don't you?)

  41. La Rit - I have along standing promise to Sheff and Chin that I will post a copy of the photo of me dad that the Moore Foundation gave to our family last year (after the original copy we had got lost over the years)....we talked about Moore here some time last year after Sheff visited the Yorkshire sculpture park which has some Moores. I

    I followed up with an email to the Henry Moore Foundation with a description of lost photo, last seen by me 40 years previously, and hey presto they kindly sent a copy which Moore had archived.

    I recently bought a new scanner and when I get around to installing it the first job is a copy of dad for the gallery. And even more interesting a photo of the images that Moore is believed to have sketched of dad in a classical reclining figure pose. (Miner in a narrow seam hacking coal from around his head whilst laying on his back with his knees up)

    When I get my copy of the new book I'll proudly post its ISBN you can be sure of that.

    BTW I'll try and find any post in which I referred to you as young miss and I'll delete it as with Jenn's - really not my intention to cause any offence. Nonetheless it would appear that in your case I may have caused you offence and thus I offer you a sincere apology.

    I assure that I don't address every woman blogger as young miss. It is a term of affection and respect for me. There is no young miss Bru for example 'cos she never said anything of substance, that I read, which I could remotely respect.

  42. There is a picture of George Osborne in the Indie on Sunday that is so horrible to behold and which demonstrates so perfectly what he is, it would probably push Hank into an immediate red mist response. I'd scan it in and post it up except that it'd probably melt my printer.

    Unfortunately they haven't used it in their online edition.

  43. Scherf - glad to see your on fine form my friend.

    What's a headbutt or two between friends nothing of any really consequence. I've been kicked in the bollocks by bigger guys than you.

    As ever we all continue to be careless with use of language ....fact is I don't post here everyday and you certainly dont.

    You have previously indicated you found being called a mick offensive, in respect of you I have since refrained from calling you one. I think I apologised for any offence if I didn't I do now.

    My son in law a citizen of Eire tells me he his not offended thus he continues to get called me mick son in law.

    I have no sweat with being called the UT village idiot, I have previously indicated it was never my intention to occupy anything but a small bit walk on part here at UT soap.

    I my friend have no reputation to loose, or be tarnished by ill considered words and sourness.

    For my part I found the thuggery of a clockwork orange world a little disturbing and the truth is if it is indeed inappropriate for a 63 year old working class man to address a 70+ year old female comrade of his brief acquaintance as dear young miss then I am plainly in the wrong place and should consider my future......

    and you my would be censor would be right.

    If you are to insist on how a man is to use his language you may as well insist on how he thinks, and in your image my friend I think not.

    Now what was it you said that you did in Denmark, pack Lurpak butter or vacuum seal Danish bacon.

  44. Before I take the dogs for a walk I ought to explain "Chronology" to my friend in Denmark.

    Sniping Scherf? - the record is there. It was you who came on here on Friday night with the guns out of the holster and shooting up the peace and aimed in my direction.

    I simply responded and then only because in the past you had several times accused me of ignoring you.

    If your crown is slipping across your eyes my right royal friend it is not my fault.

    I am on record as saying that I found you a fine poster. If you become a once upon a time fine poster the fault will lay in your choice of words and your sometimes censorious behaviour.

    I am beginning to think that I have a duty to stay around here if only to attract your bile and let the others enjoy the fun.

    I'd like to think that even those of us with an idiotic disposition could still have a role in the community or are we to be put down at the first opportunity.

    I'm happy to attract your scorn and Hank's when he wants to throw it my way it saves others the inconvenience. A small reward I owe them for their tolerance in scrolling on by my sometime trite ramblings.

    Those with skill scroll on by, its only those with disturbed/excited minds that pause to be further angered. I'm sorry that you are increasingly angered by me. It's not likely to go away till you stop playing high and mighty or just scroll on by.

  45. For the benefit of our Japanese readers who sometimes stop by here,......

    If a Yorkshireman really wanted to insult an Irishman he would call him a thick leprechaun.

    I have never called Scherfig any such thing and never would unless headbutted by him and that would only then be to authenticate a contract taken out for his castration.

  46. LaRit - "Hope you're well young man! ;)"

    I don't suppose..................I could persuade you to address me as "young Master Deano"..could I?... No? ....I quite understand, but I had to try.

    There might be an extra drink in it for you if ever we met at a UT do?

    I'm glad to read that your partner's father appears to have some empathy with you. Must have been a tough time.

    Best wishes with the wedding whenever it comes.

  47. Sorry Japanese - another careless use of the Queens language there. It should have read....

    ..."Fucking thick leprechaun" - I would never willingly give a lawyer an inroad of ambiguity to a contract of mine.

    You cannot trust the judiciary in England to be fair. An opinion my fine friend Scherfig and I might just agree on.

  48. Monatana - may I enquire if it would be possible to have a third room on UT?

    I would hate to be found wanting and tedious and boring to your posters here.

    Perhaps we could have a third room called "the cockpit" or somesuch to which Scherf and I, and any other cantankerous bull/rhino, could retire to discuss our differences without disturbing the sense of the place??

  49. We could even ask bilip to come back and join bitey and those who enjoy the snorting and foot stamping in the cockpit...

    just an honest enquiry.

  50. Hello visitor from Poland. Welcome. Anybody can join in here on UT

  51. Montana - my dad would have been in his prime condition as man in 1937 when your wonderful family photo was taken.

    Me dad shared a passion with with your great grandfather for a side parting. And to this day I still do the same with my hair.

    It must be a common genetic disorder we all look, how to say it, ... a little silly. .

  52. I meant to say that I bet that one day your son will consider that photograph amongst his most prized possessions.

    I think I might even bet a tiny fraction of my soul on it.

    I wish I could have left something like it for my kids. They look interesting and real men.

    Is the Cornish line in the photo??

  53. I worked it out thus: annual income based on 8 hours per week teaching was just over £5,000 per annum.

    Full time FE lecturers were contracted to do 27 hours teaching at the time so my full time pay would be between 16 and 17 thousand. I didn't work it out accurately.

    I was once the chair of Cardiff County ACE (Adult & Community Education) NATFHE branch.

    The point is as LEA part time tutors we were not on FE rates. Cardiff was notorious for not paying FE rates tp part time tutors and although we battled for years our membership was samll and we never got anywhere. Too many nice middle class do gooders in that field - very difficult to organise and god knows I tried!

    Basic skills tutors were originally all volunteers I think cardiff County Council thought we were lucky to be paid at all.

  54. Deano I'm 67 (not quite 70 yet!) and retired 3 years ago and no I get no pension from my adult tutor work. County only put us on the scheme a year before I retired. My teacher's pension comes from my fulltime permenant teaching work, which stopped in 1985. I taught in schools for a further 6 years but that was all temporary/part time and supply work and not pensionable either. (I believe you can now opt in in those circumstances). As a result my teacher's pension is lower than my retirement pension.

    Story of my life! from creches at union meetings to decent pension rights for part timers I fought for them but it was always too late for me to benefit. My daughter (then 8) informed me she was 'too old for creches' LOL!

    This happens when you are in the vanguard of struggle. Still others have benefitted (so far).

    But watch this space ;(

    Sweary banter doesn't worry me! I know that some women do find it difficult to cope with but I have never been intimidated by it. I choose not indulge in it often as I don't feel comfortable doing it - its not really me. I do occasionally indulge in a little 'effing and blinding' so who am I to complain?

    If some think this is 'being nice' or 'being PB'. So be it, I was brought up to be 'ladylike' and I don't seem able to get out of the habit! I always have to take a deep breath before doing it

    Your calling me 'young miss' just makes me smile and heck we've not much to smile about these days :))

    So please feel free to continue to do so - its part of your online persona I think I'd miss it.

  55. Great article by Jeremy Seabrook on CiF.

    Can any French UT correspondents confirm that guillotines have been sent out to South Africa to deal with the Vendee style uprising occuring in the national squad?

    What a bunch of egocentric, spoilt, self centred arses. It's the Dutch that are supposed to have first dibs on falling out at major tournaments. The Irish must be pissing themselves laughing.

  56. Hey Ho all

    Hot day here - garden and I wilting.

    Don't like all the fighting here - don't know what its about.


    You can call me whatever you like so long as is it not associated with right wing politics.

  57. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jun/20/asylum-system-destitution

    this thread is going to be a very weird read on Monday morning.

    So many deletes already.

  58. Just read the Ed Holmes piece The bare faced cheek of it! How about bankers and come to that footballers and rock stars!

    My daughter is a nurse she saves lives! She gets under £25000 a year I have already discussed my 'guilded' pension on here and the amazing pay I got for doing the job.

    Meanwhile my party in in the throws of a leadership election which will go on until September.

    Its like a re-run of the 80's - then it was black sections and what we should call the person who ran the meeting.

    May I add the black section thing is technical - any group in the party can CAUCUS and bring motions to the General Committee. But the trouble with SECTIONS is it allows an unsympathetic chair to 'remit it to the section' it then doesn't get discussed by the whole party - divisive identity politics rubbish wasting our time when we should have been discussing the miners dispute.

    Now we have a pointless election with a bunch of self seeking gits on the ballot paper that no self respecting socialist can vote for! Instead of working on a sensible opposition strategy which includes organising opposition in the country not just in parliament!

    The suffering this lot of total bastards will cause will make the 80's look like a vicar's tea party!!!!!

  59. @annetan...

    I can't bring myself to post on there.

    At least the Public Services have unions who can represent them (and I hope they bloody do). In my sector we have two unions and they are both useless in having any governmental influence.

    Will wait to see the impact of the universities strikes tomorrow with great interest.

  60. "...You can call me whatever you like so long as is it not associated with right wing politics..."

    My dear young miss Leni......how to say a simple thing. You are a star of my persuasion,

    Thank you my Welsh Comrades - the pair.

    You must divide the equal number of my warm affectionate embrace as proper between comrades at a distance, xxxx I always enjoy your occasional encouragement. You are dune and provocative writers I enjoy your contributions lots.

    Nothing to do with the sometime swelling around your nipples - more to do with your sense and sensibility.

  61. You are not a dune and prov writer - you are fine and provocative writer,

  62. I'm with Anne and Leni - as best I undestand them,

    the purpose of language is to inform and inspire

    not to belittle.

  63. Oh fuck my loved tribute to my dad has gone to the ether.

    A small number of you would have enjoyed it but I I have insufficient energy to repeat it,

  64. Time to join my .....friends at rest, .for those who had a passing identity with a construct of words,,,,,,,it's probable I would have been one with yours.

    3p4 you are a star.

    I think this amounts to a rampant fathers day drunkennes for which If only I could think clearly now I might think about apolgising about..............................if my daughter asked me and even then the plea would have to be accopmanied by my beutiful granddaghters calll I might just have .....else


    spell checker not working but I as a dad am to fucked to care.

  65. Annetan

    Your talks of labour practices is very interesting to me.

    You're lucky to be retired. It is physically impossible to get any employment these days, and if so, then the conditions and pay would be so bad. Emigration is the only answer, at least that is what the vast majority of my peers think. I suppose perversly you could say I am lucky becuase I am young and do not have a geographical anchor to hold me in one place.

    I am not a socialist, I do not think there will be a 'revolution coming'- especially with the apathy of my generation. I am a humanist, and the current neo-liberal system in Britain is anti human. It doesn't stop me from being radical though, for example housing. Most of our generation could only dream of our own place, instead we flatshare like I do. Cancellation of the right to buy and a new social housing construction policy are nessesary.

  66. Evening all!

    Deano - you are fine the way you are, even if a bit daft round the edges. That is what makes you so endearing.

    Not looked at much on CiF today yet. Watching the last episode of Wallander from last night. Never thought I would get so hooked on a series with subtitles in a language I have absolutely no understanding of whatsoever...

  67. Horrifying to think that even the Thatcherites are getting the jitters about the cuts, ffs.

    Are we really heading for "Rich man in his garden, poor man at his (reinforced, alarmed, CCTV'd gated community) gate"? Prior to the elections Clegg was warning of social unrest if the cuts were "unfair" - I can't see how he can be endorsing the kind of extremes that we are being led to believe are going to be implemented.

    Unless of course all this talk is to make us fear the absolute worst, so that when slightly less stringent, but still nevertheless swingeing, cuts are made, we swallow the pill more easily?

    Duke asked earlier what he though the game plan was. I was seriously wondering - and I may be completely off base here - whether the plan is to render so many public services so utterly unmanageable that the "only solution" will be privatisation?

    God knows, the yanks (soz montana, you know I don't mean you) have been wanting to see the break up of the NHS for decades because it prevents them swamping the health "market" here.

    I do hope I'm wrong...

  68. I notice the usual suspects from the right are queuing up on the Seabrook thread to give him a good slapping.
    Don't know what they are getting themselves in such a snit over.
    I would have thought they would all be quaffing Dom Perignon in their golf clubs now that the neo-liberal train wreck is back on the rails and it's back to business as usual with endless supplies of cheap labour to exploit.
    After all, it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good!

  69. It seems, given the declining standard of refereeing performances, that FIFA have now adopted an 'ask player if he was a bit naughty' approach.

    Ref: 'did you use your hand then?'
    Fabiano: 'what, me? Nah, me chest guv'nor!!'
    Ref: 'Fair do's. Goal it is then!!'


  70. @speedkermit - couldn't have made it clearer tbh. It's all there on yesterday's thread. What is the role of the police in a neo-liberal state?

    @turminder - if you don't think I've ever said anything worth listening to, then the fault lies with you and the rest of the fucking luvvies on Cif.

    My line's been pretty consistent. We can all agree that the Tories are despicable, but where I, and some others on here and on cif, differ from the prevailing consensus is that I understand that it's the wet middle class liberals who've done more damage to left wing politics.

    I despise the Guardianista agenda, dominated as it is by identity politics twats, sociology 101 grads who believe in equality for all as long as it doesn't mean higher taxes for them, middle class tossers who've ridden to affluent complacency thanks to the sacrifices of the working class Left.

  71. James, the referees have been woefully inept. That Kaka incident was shameful. I really love the footie, but that shit has to be purged from the game.

    Off to my last game at Fenway, then 6am flight to start my journey home. Later all.

  72. Boudican,

    yeah, but Kaka deserved it for being an all around spoiled, overrated, overpaid nancy boy. In my opinion, obviously.


    Enjoy Fenway. I'll have to make do with the ESPN version of the Fenway experience this evening!


  73. Evening all

    So Fabio and the boys have had a frank exchange of views.Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.Possibly premature but i.d wager the vultures are already circling should England not win on wednesday.Plus if we get a draw the shame of being knocked out whilst still unbeaten will leave this 'jewel set in a silver sea' well and truly gutted.I predict rioting in the streets.Typical of this god foresaken country.We allow the politicians to shaft us left right and centre without a murmour.But a premature exit from the World Cup and all hell breaks loose!!

  74. Evening Paul

    should England be sent home ealy will that mean the members of the team and manager will join the ranks of the unemployed ?

  75. Kaka's a great player. He made a mistake going to Madrid last summer and has suffered from being played sporadically at the Bernabeu.

    He's one of the least spoilt superstars of the modern era.

    If you want to talk about spoiled, overrated, overpaid nancy boys, then the French training session today might be a good place to start.

  76. Paul,

    Maybe we should consider the football riots a practice!
    (I know my throwing arm's a bit rusty!!)


  77. The French are acting terribly, I agree, but the good thing about the world cup, is that there can be more than one winner of the spoiled, overpaid, overrated nancy boy trophy.

    I disagree about Kaka though.

    He's a good player, but I just think he's an awesome one.
    And, I also think he's pretty spoiled, and quite prone to tantrums when he's not allowed to be all brilliant and that, although I do appreciate that there are probably worse offenders.

  78. Hi Leni,James,Hank

    When Portugal knocked us out in 2006 there were quite a few disturbances as the Pride of English manhood vented their fury-although i suspect many had no idea where Portugal-'our oldest ally'-actually is.

    @Leni-The players will return to their clubs but Fabio may face the chop.Of course if that happens Bru will be on hand to lift his spirits by giving him a makeover.And with her help he,ll bounce back.And may go into business with her -opening a dog grooming salon on the Avenue Louise.She,s the bollocks that Bru!

  79. *just don't think he's an awesome one.


  80. Paul - i thought John Terry's interview earlier was fascinating. (Never said that before about a Terry interview.) Usually these guys have an FA minder on hand to ensure that they don't wander off message but not here. Terry pretty much said that there's a rift between Capello and the team, and that they think Joe Cole should be playing despite Capello's reservations about the little maestro.

    Could just be self-preservation on the part of the players of course - if we go out, it's down to the manager, who's dispensible, and a foreigner anyway.

    I don't agree that there'll be a riot if we go out on Wednesday though. My feeling is that the Great English Public have approached this tournament with an air of fatalism.

    It's been interesting to see how the St George's flags have disappeared from cars and houses over the last couple of days.

    Maybe, just maybe, we're keeping our powder dry for the more important riots to come.

  81. Hank, I depise the "Guaradianista agenda" as much as you but it seems to me that the prevailing consensus amongst the ruling elite is that most people will swallow this neo-liberalist crap in perpetuity.
    It's not inconceivable that I could be dead before this scam is exposed.
    After all we have been here before:
    There's nothing new about the poor people being shat on and having to take the blame themselves for being inadequate and feckless.
    Fucking hell, I can't believe I'm typing this in the year 2010, and in England for fucks sake!
    The banks have held us to ransom and the government has lobbed our dosh out to save their golf club subscriptions and pay for their yachts in the South of France and as if that's not enough, they want us to pay yet more through redundancies and welfare cuts.
    It's a fucking joke and the sooner people wake up to the fact they are being taken for a ride the better.

  82. Hank

    Any disturbances following a premature exit from the Cup will be nothing more than alcohol thuggery.Actually it,s funny you mentioned the sudden and noticeable reduction in St Georges flags.We were talking about that earlier.It is as though after the England v Algeria debacle people here have in effect accepted that we may well not be going any further in the Cup.

    On the more serious point in your last sentence my fear is that some communities may implode rather than explode.Too many fault lines in some communities make a united front when it matters highly unlikely.Classic divide and rule for those holding the reins of power.

  83. Meant to say 'alcohol fuelled thuggery.'

  84. chekhov - the people are clearly swallowing this neo-liberalist crap. You only need to read Cif to understand that. Hermione, the patron saint of vacuous time-wasters, is fully behind the coalition. As are the rest of the Islington crowd.

    One of the tired old lines on Cif is to reference Niemoller's "First they came for the Jews". It's gonna come back and haunt a few of the smug tossers on there as the cuts start to bite into their cosy lifestyles and they realise that they're not immune to the pain they're happy to bring down on the poor.

    The funny (?) thing is that they think complicity in this unnecessary crime is justified because they'll get electoral reform in return.

    They don't realise that they're proving the futility of PR and the coalitions which inevitably follow in PR's wake with their hapless role as a figleaf to the naked virility of right-wing corporate titans.

  85. CBI - apparently asking for new measures to control unions in view of expected strikes and civil action in response to budget cuts.

    the Neoliberal agenda marches on.

  86. "Too many fault lines in some communities make a united front when it matters highly unlikely."

    Couldn't agree more, Paul. And identity politics is at the root of it all. Economic interests and the class struggle got trumped by sectional interests sometime around 1968.

    Ever read Kenan Malik? monkeyfish put me on to him. Very interesting books - Bitter Fruit and From Fatwa to Jihad.

  87. Paul: I'm with you on the "divide and rule" theory and it makes sense but with the advent of the Internet, doesn't it lose some of it's objectivity?

  88. Leni - it's not gonna happen. Under the new politics, the id card scheme has been scrapped and Henry Porter has decided that his work at Liberty Central is done.

    Cameron and Clegg and the rest of the neo-liberals are hardly likely to use the repressive power of the state to restrict the freedoms of the most vulnerable simply to shore up the wealth and privileges of a tiny elite.

  89. Someone (who?) wrote once about the rise of religions in societies. He differentiated between God and religion - basically saying God didn't matter in the forms of social control exercised by religion.
    His hypotheseis was the most humans wish to be like others - so if an idea catches on, gains supremacy the majority will go wth it - any opposing factions arising in the society will be seen as threat to majority opinion. It is the threat to the comfort of the majority rather than the idea which is opposed - thus conflict is born. If the conflict threatens to destroy the society a scapegoat (victim) is created. The scapegoat victim can be sacrificed without guilt if it is made to appear blameworthy.

  90. "My line's been pretty consistent. We can all agree that the Tories are despicable, but where I, and some others on here and on cif, differ from the prevailing consensus is that I understand that it's the wet middle class liberals who've done more damage to left wing politics.

    I despise the Guardianista agenda, dominated as it is by identity politics twats, sociology 101 grads who believe in equality for all as long as it doesn't mean higher taxes for them, middle class tossers who've ridden to affluent complacency thanks to the sacrifices of the working class Left. "

    Fair enough, after all the Julie 'I hate men' Bindel types fail to realise the gender of the prime minister from 1979-90. Or the pseudo outrage of there not being enough of minority x in situation Y that is incredibly annoying.

    The Guardian has always been a middle class paper though, 'a paper that will remain bourgeois to the last' following 2 minutes of 'research' on Wiki. And historically most of the working class in Britain, at least in England have been more right wing anyway, albeit less so in the North.

    So, the question the Guardian has to ask itself, is it's obsession with identity politics etc, at all radical. Of course not. Orwell, son of Eton was a radical- and gets claimed by everyone, right and left. In Homage to Catalonia (a great book) he outs himself as centre left/Democratic socialist the same as the Guardian should be.

    To be honest, yes I have middle class aspirations, or rather I would prefer to live in a less class obsessed society with a challenging and rewarding job and lifestyle that under the present system would make me middle class. Traitor to my working class roots and all that... Of course, I would still have a sense of duty towards soceity, and I would prefer a Scandinavian style system even though I would have to pay high taxes.

  91. Sounds like Hegel, Leni. Or Heidegger. Or Beckenbauer. Definitely German.

  92. Hank, to be honest, when people bang on about about 'the role of the police in neoliberal society', they just demonstrate that they know rod all about what the average frontline officer does with their days. Most Guardian readers seem to be under the impression that the police spend 90% of their time beating up demonstrators - I've policed three demosntrations in my entire service and they all went off peacefully. This is in the fourth largest city in the UK. My days are taken up with nuisance youths, shoplifters, domestics and pissheads. I wouldn't know a neoliberal if it dropped a hardback copy of the Shock Doctrine on my foot. I've never policed an industrial dispute (although that might change in the near future), and I'm not unusual among officers in that respect.

    Of course - if you'll forgive me the boast - I'm more given to booklearning ways than my average colleague, so I give these things more thought. I think the question you and others might be more interested in asking is which way the police will jump if/when the Coalition decide to let mass industry go to the wall again. There are inevitable parallels to be drawn with the miners' strike and it's tempting to think the coming madness is wholly Thatcherite. I don't think they are half a clever as old Maggie, bless her palsied soul.

    You might recall that she liked coppers. She wholeheartedly implemented the pay recommendations of Edmund-Davies when the Conservatives were elected in 1979, which led to an increase in salary of up to 45% for some officers. Who wouldn't follow her into battle for that? Cameron hasn't got half her smarts. What he ought to bear in mind about 'austerity budgets' and 'difficult decisions' and other euphemisms for fucking over the working class population is that they require a strong arm to carry them through. The police are fully-braced to get as badly shafted as every other public sector worker in the incoming shit-storm, but the whole point of Edmund-Davies was that we sacrificed our right to strike in return for better remuneration. Now, quite unfairly, the police are neither having their cake nor eating it, having pay and conditions eroded without a right to withhold their labour (and if they did I guarantee the country would be a smoking ruin within 24hrs). The only thing left to do is to work-to-rule, and to refuse all overtime (which they cannot be forced to perform). The crushing of the miners' strikes was entirely prosecuted on overtime, so he can kiss goodbye to his private army.

    I can't see the police being particularly loyal if history decides to repeat itself. They wouldn't have given Jacqui Smith the steam off their piss if it had happened under New Labour's watch, for much the same reasons.

    Anyway, 'what do I believe in'? I believe the evidence of my own experiences and that no-one but your closest friends and family ever have your best interests at heart, least of all fucking politicians. It's all very well believing in the inherent decency of the working stiff, but put them in charge and they'll chuck around other people's money until it's all gone gerry-building some so-called fairer society, and them spend the next two decades bitching about the whole shaky edifice being dismantled by some toff. The quicker we fathom some way of doing without politics altogether, the better.

  93. Hank

    No i haven,t read Kenan Malik but i do live in a working class London community where there are numerous factions.And i,m not confident that when the public sector cuts start biting people will hold together.Because the ties that bind us together are pretty weak at best.And it doesn,t take much for the bubbling tensions to reveal themselves.It may be different either in a homegenous community or one where one faction is clearly dominant.But where you have competing factions in a community the prognosis ain,t good for when the shit hits the fan.

    Also IMHO one of the biggest emerging faultlines in some communities is between Muslim and non-Muslim.The faultline that dare not speak it,s name in our increasingly PC society.

  94. chekhov

    Sorry i,m not quite sure what you mean.Can you explain please.

  95. Nap

    If the objective is to improve education, life chances and future prospects for working class people why would it be a betrayal to succeed in those areas ?
    The betrayal comes from those who 'succeed' and the are willing to pull the ladder away from others. The betrayal comes from those who say " I have a well paid job, a home in a 'good' area - i deserve it- the unemployed, the disabled are feckless and stupid. did it why can't they ? hey deserve all the get "

    What does middle class mean - is it just somebody in a well paid job even if their parents still live in a council flat or a mining village.

    The idea is if you reach the top - or near it - of the hill you pull on the rope to haul others up behind you - rather than sitting in the sun laughing at those in the shadows beneath.

  96. Something wrong with my keyboard . sorry.

  97. "To be honest, yes I have middle class aspirations, or rather I would prefer to live in a less class obsessed society..."

    Orwell described himself as lower-upper-middle-class. He was a son of Empire, a nasty right-wing snob until he had a kind of mental breakdown while serving in the Colonial Police in Burma in his mid-20s.

    He resigned his commission and decided to make a career for himself as a journalist, and went down and out in Paris and London not for political reasons but for professional ones.

    In The Road to Wigan Pier, he summed up the view of his class towards the workers in four famous words - "the lower classes smell".

    He wrote brilliantly in that book about the hardship of working class life, and also about the self-defeating factionalism of left-wing politics, which he returned to in Homage to Catalonia.

    He didn't ever believe in socialism as such, but in common decency, and he thought that the social democratic left was more likely to build a society on that basis than any other political group.

    Orwell would have been disgusted to have been claimed by the right as one of theirs. His values are not their values and never have been.

  98. "One of the tired old lines on Cif is to reference Niemoller's "First they came for the Jews". It's gonna come back and haunt a few of the smug tossers on there as the cuts start to bite into their cosy lifestyles and they realise that they're not immune to the pain they're happy to bring down on the poor. The funny (?) thing is that they think complicity in this unnecessary crime is justified because they'll get electoral reform in return."

    Don't forget that other breed of delusionist, the civil liberties loon, one's like Henry Porter who think it's justified because they'll do away with ID cards, the DNA database and maybe a couple of CCTV cameras, despite the fact that they would have had practically zero detriment to their paranoid little lives (btw, has nobody told these idiots that we are actually world leaders in the manufacture of surveillance and security equipment? Exactly how many businesses are they prepared to see fold?) Porter actually wrote this sickening farewell polemic a couple of weeks back, bowing out of 'Liberty Central' because he imagined that somehow his work here was done. Utterly delusional.

  99. "Also IMHO one of the biggest emerging faultlines in some communities is between Muslim and non-Muslim.The faultline that dare not speak it,s name in our increasingly PC society."

    Perfectly stated, Paul! Those bloody muslims are making my life a living hell. Just today I was at a meeting where we decided that we wouldn't let any more move into our community. And there's no way we're having any minarets put up that block our view of the mobile phone masts.

    They come here, killing animals in the streets, organising terrorist training camps, hiding their women in veils, bastards! We should boycott their businesses, daub their windows with paint and let everyone know what evil, wicked people they are.

  100. @speedkermit - well, leaving aside the disingenuous, self-serving bloocks you led off with, that was an interesting response.

    Most of us know, tbh, that the police don't spend most of their time beating up demonstrators or pickets or having a laugh and a smoke while football fans get crushed to death under their watch.

    "I think the question you and others might be more interested in asking is which way the police will jump if/when the Coalition decide to let mass industry go to the wall again."

    Actually, that was precisely the question I asked yesterday.

    The problem that your lot face is that there is no such thing as "mass industry" because your boys were wholly complicit in destroying it back in 1984-5. The police will be forever tainted by the pictures of twats on your side waving blood money in the face of striking miners.

    "The quicker we fathom some way of doing without politics altogether, the better."

    Good luck with that. Meaningless fucking twaddle.

  101. Heyhabib

    OK if you disagree with me say so .But don,t take the piss eh!

  102. @speedkermit - well at least we agree about Porter. I beat you to it with my post at 23.40.

  103. Don't take any notice of habib, Paul. Lapdogs yap but very rarely bite.

  104. Yes, well many right wingers, Jeremy Clarksonites do invoke the spirit of Orwell for things as mundande as speed cameras.

    Leni, I agree with everything you say. Don't assume I am right wing troll. The last time I tried to express myself on here I got a verbal bollocking and there was a hayfield full of straw manning. I don't 'hate the plebs', nor do I believe 'the poor are poor because it is their own fault' as Montana so eloquently put it. However my opinions of many aspects of working class Brits is coloured by personal experience.

    For example I went through the state comprehensive schools and I was physically and verbally attacked by my fellow working class schoolmates for having the audacity to have an enquiring mind. So much for solidarity. My wroking class socialist parents refused to try and get me in a grammar school point blank, I never even knew that they existed.

    These 'working class' kids were nearly universally the offspring of Sun readers. So what, am I to do, blame Rupert Murdoch for the childhood bullying. Yes, a bit, but you cannot deny that individauls have responsibility for their actions. Marxist doctine can only go so far. I believe the 'being determines conscioussness' aspect to an extent- but at the same time I belive people are masters of their fates, they have responsibility to their fellow humans as well.

    Anyway goodnight.

  105. Heyhabib

    You know what mate you may have guilt-tripped me once before but it ain,t gonna happen again.
    Unless you are deaf,dumb,blind and stupid you must be aware of the faultline that exists in some communities between muslim and non-muslim.
    Or did the riots a few years ago in some northern towns pass you by?And are you blissfully unaware of the situation in some parts of London?

    You know what if you,re gonna make smart arse comments just remember you it cuts both ways.Fucking idiot!!!

  106. Paul: to be honest I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about most of the time but I'll scroll back to your question and try to answer it when I am sober!

  107. Anyway i,m off now.

    Nite people

    ps heyhabib-you fucking pillock!!

  108. Nap

    you misunderstood me - I was not criticising you. Will speak to you tomorrow.

    Take care x

  109. "OK if you disagree with me say so .But don,t take the piss eh!"

    "Lapdogs yap but very rarely bite."

    that's fucking hilarious coming from the pair of you! Cheers, haven't laughed this hard from anything either of you have ever said before. Cheers! :-)

  110. heyhabib

    So what you gonna do?Run to Montana like the fucking pussybwoi you really are?

    Anyway i,m seriously not gonna waste anymore of my time with you.

  111. But you are going to read this, aren't you? I gave you a guilt trip? I always thought your apology was disingenuous... guess I was right.

  112. heyhabib - do you remember the circumstances in which you first joined this site?

    I do.

    There's a split on here between those who've got interesting things to say and those who've got nothing to say and too much time on their hands.

    If you, or turminder, or any other waddya refugee wants to make an interesting point, then I'll be happy to debate it with you.

    If you just want to piss your time away on here making smart-arse snidey comments and forming cliques, then you might as well fuck off back to waddya and the grateful arms of fellow airheaded no-marks in Brussels.

    I'm past making apologies on here. I'm sick and fucking tired of dealing with right-wing loons on Cif and well-meaning liberal idiots on here. Until you persuade Montana to ban me, Habib, I'll say what I want to say on here, debate with those whose views I find interesting and treat with contempt those who deserve it.

  113. "treat with contempt those who deserve it."
    Quite right, too.

  114. This comment has been removed by the author.

  115. You're not alone Hank, you know? Hate me, Hermione, anyone else you want to. I think most people who post here have had a bit of grief in their time.

    My apology was sincere and heartfelt. Don't forget, I was a fanboy, once.

  116. Fair enough, habib. None of it amounts to a hill of beans etc.

    I'm deleting my previous post just in case any of your old friends are looking in.

  117. "None of it amounts to a hill of beans"

    Maybe this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship?

  118. Hank: say what the fuck you like. That is what this site is all about after all. It was set up as a piss take on "CiF" where censorhip ruled.
    We all take our chances on here in the full knowledge that no one will be "modded" and everyone who comments will be held to account for what they say. Long may it continue and thanks to Montana for setting it up.

  119. "No i haven,t read Kenan Malik"

    I think you'd enjoy Fatwa to Jihad, Paul, very sharp book. I read it off an MF recommendation too, along with that collection of Sokals essays. Both superb.

    On a lighter (or rather heavier) note, I cant remember the article, but one recently about how people do the most awful things on camera and then broadcast it to the world. Well...