29 June 2010


The Frog Prince -- Walter Crane

You can observe a lot by just watching.
-Yogi Berra


  1. Good morning, everyone!

    Speedkermit suggested a music blog. At first, I thought maybe it would be a bit of new blog overkill, but then I realised that YouTubing was such a strong Untrusted tradition that it would almost be a crime for us to not have one.

    As with the film and book blogs, if you have a suggestion about genres -- do I have one that isn't necessary? Is there one that I don't have that we ought to? Please let me know.

    Whether you post a link or just make a recommendation, I hope you enjoy it.

  2. Morning Montana

    Great a music page! The UT is getting better and better Would you add 'blues' to the different genres. Thanks.

  3. Hi Montana,

    great idea on the music blog. As for themes/genres, can we have sludge metal, neo-norwegian doom metal and Extreme pokemon terror?


  4. PeakOilPete recommended for his take on the Editorial on the G20. Nice short thread.

    mystery why I become 'John' late yesterday afternoon ...?
    Much enjoyed the Duke's Beveridge Piece. Propose atl or wider distribution, but where ?
    I do actually call milady "Princesse" !

  5. There is a new Incapacity Benefit thread up on Cif, I've learned my lesson, I am not going to spoil my day by reading about how much of scrounging scumbag I am.

    The music page is a great idea, lots of links I hope, :)

  6. Good god, Hermione's posted this on Monbiot's thread:

    i assume describing young people as 'human vermin' is supposed to be funny?

    humour doesn't appear to be your strong point george.

    Who is it that's got a weak sense of humour?

  7. Well to be fair thauma humour isn't his strong point, good idea for an article and I agree with him but hilarious it isn't.

  8. I thought it was quite good. But I seem to be in a very small minority.

    Actually I liked it taken at face value even better!

  9. I was disappointed that more people didn't take it at face value and give it their hearty agreement.

    Tofu seems like a very nice person.

  10. Ah yes, tofu is a pearl. Wish all my neighbours were just like him.

  11. Is it just me or, because of his voice, face and general demeanour (and a bit because of the things he says), Tory Minister for Culture and Rhyming Slang Jeremy Hunt is by far the one you'd most want to happy-slap until he's sobbing uncontrollably and then just keep on slapping and jeering and filming him on your mobile and slapping and...

    ... arggh!

  12. Well, it's a toss-up between him and Michael Gove.

  13. If we're going to talk about music on here, can we please avoid wankfest stuff like this from today's Guardian. FFS. Damon Albarn as the equal of David Bowie? Now dame David has put out some right old guff later in life (but has had the good grace to lie low/semi-retire), but Albarn? Admittedly the doughboy's done some nice tunes, but nothing out there and nothing that startled as much as Bowie in the 70s. For cultural impact and stone-cold classics,Bowie pisses on Albarn..
    Might as well consider bed-wetters Coldplay as the equal of The Clash, Kenny Miller on a level with Kenny Dalglish, and David Haye on a par with Ali.

  14. Alisdair,

    was the Guardian not the official paper of the Glastonbury Trustafarian Music and Wanky Events weekend?

    If so, they'll resort to any old hyperbole to puff it up.

    I daresay the staff took some unpaid interns to buy their falafels and check the state of the toilets for them.

    Equating Kenny Miller with King Kenny. I like that one.

  15. It's silly comparing Bowie and Albarn. Both great, inventive artists, but different careers, genres and approaches.

    I understand that some think Albarn is as inventive as Bowie. Remember he's had twenty years less to do it in so far.

    For me, the greatest of them all is Elvis Costello, but I don't demand others agree with me.

    Anyway, I've added my take to the thread.

  16. Morning all

    Was listening to' Kind of Blue' late last night .It was produced before i was born and like so much of Miles Davis stuff has IMHO stood the test of time.And will continue to attract new fans for generations to come.Can,t say the same about much of todays music-irrespective of genre.Although it may simply be a sign of getting older that i,m now beginning to think 'they don,t make 'em like they used too' with monotonous regularity.

    @chekhov-FWIW i,m crap at doing links as well.Wouldn,t be surprised if some of my feeble attempts have ended up in the Pentagon!

  17. Props to Montana for posting the new blogs, hope we all use them. Great idea posting the link txt (for HTML) at the side, could this be a feature on all the pages?

  18. Brusselsexpats
    29 Jun 2010, 12:04PM

    I often wonder what would have happened had Hitler had the internet at his disposal.

    Jesus wept!

  19. This comment has been removed by the author.

  20. The more youth workers we have, the more juvenile crime we have. We need fewer, not more

  21. This comment has been removed by the author.

  22. @Turminder

    Been experimenting with some first postings on the Music pages. Hope I'm doing it right...

  23. Montana, great new blogs! Hopefully I will find the willpower to use them ...

    frog: MAM fails so very very hard on logic, it isn't funny anymore. Okay, maybe it is still a little bit funny ...

    But hardly anything can top Julie-shizzle Bindel-izzle's ignorance of what "Delilah" was about when it was a Karaoke favourite of hers (it is one of mine, too; do y'all think there's a chance of Julie and me having an entertaining evening at the Karaoke bar?), meaning she read all the lyrics and still didn't know it was about a man who killed his wife in a fit of jealousy.

    Next thing you know, she finds out that "Je t'aime ... moi non plus" is about sexual intercourse ...

  24. Home for lunch and keeping my head down. All staff in the HO/UKBA have been requested to submit ideas for how we can work more effectively and economically.

    I suggested we should do away with at least one whole layer of middle management, who basically just get in the way - together with a couple of other things we could do on the team. Management is very top heavy in the HO and it all needs streamlining.

    This has mightily pissed of one of my managers - who's entire sense of identity appears to be predicated on being a middle manager in the civil service. She's incredibly 'gradist' and seems to want deference from the minions. Well, she won't get it. I reserve deference for Desmond Tutu, Sub-commandante Marcos and my ex next door neighbour Nora.


  25. Oooh, enjoyed putting a few choice slabs on the Soul/RnB music section.

    Montana, I think you should call the music section 'Bitterweed's gaffe'.

  26. Looks good Peter, can't look at vids at wk, but will check it all l8r... Loved the Feudalism 2.0 13th. NuSerfdom here we come! ; (

  27. MW - you've spelt Yogi Bear wrong... cheers for the music blog btw. It would be nice to get some kind of theme thing going along the lines of the Graun's 'Songs About...' section.

    TX - "I often wonder what would have happened had Hitler had the internet at his disposal." - It's bad enough that Bru has the internet at her disposal.

  28. Sheffpixie:

    "Home for lunch and keeping my head down. All staff in the HO/UKBA have been requested to submit ideas for how we can work more effectively and economically."

    "I suggested we should do away with at least one whole layer of middle management, who basically just get in the way - together with a couple of other things we could do on the team. Management is very top heavy in the HO and it all needs streamlining."

    I've stuck my suggestion in. Do away with our final salary pension scheme and replace it with one based on average pay over the entire service. What we currently have is a quasi-Masonic system whereby the brass promote their mates with six months left to work to enhance their pension - kind of a golden handshake...

  29. @Sheff Just waiting for more 'Grassing opportunities' at my local Govt. job. God it sickens me, not two months and the lowest in society are being lined up for a kicking, the bankers are getting their bonuses and we have to pay for it. Imigration and pensioners are to blame for the deficit and Bru is to be made Minister for social inclusion and the media.

  30. speedkermit,

    I think Montana is referring to Yogi Berra, the baseball player. He was smarter than your average baseballer allegedly.


    gaff of course, please excuse my gaffe of referring to gaff as gaffe.


    glad you liked it.

  31. @speedkermit

    I remember the promotion-for-pension stuff from my friend Pat the Plod, who was getting made up to Inspector a few months before retirement. He did deserve it though, in my opinion, after years in child protection.

  32. Have put up a couple of tunes-no links i,m afraid -on the new soul section.

    Recommend everyone who isn,t a fan of soul music listen to Inner City Blues(makes me wanna holler)by Marvin Gaye on YouTube.Old skool tune but very apt for our times.

  33. Shit!

    Meant to say everyone who IS a fan of soul music.

  34. Brilliant new bloggs! I now officially have no time for real life LOL!

    Just as well I am retired!

  35. Sheffpixie & Speedkermit - Excellent work there, take the buggers at their word and do not relent.

  36. Oh Cath Elliot has opened herself up for a good kicking with her 'Why I use middle class as an insult' I predict a real bloodbath.

  37. PeterJ:

    "I remember the promotion-for-pension stuff from my friend Pat the Plod, who was getting made up to Inspector a few months before retirement. He did deserve it though, in my opinion, after years in child protection."

    Yeah, I have an Inspector and Superintendent in mind who most certainly didn't...

  38. Paul: Well, it can be argued that "Recommend everyone who isn,t a fan of soul music listen to Inner City Blues(makes me wanna holler)by Marvin Gaye" has a nice proselytizing ring to it: "This is a song which will make you a fan if you aren't one already!"

    jennifera30: When will the comment "Why I use feminist as an insult" appear in the thread? When will it disappear? Any bets, or is it already too late for that?

  39. James: The nightclub sounds like one could have a really nice evening there, if in the right mood and with the right amount of drugs.

    If only they didn't have Sonic the Hedgehog on the walls, he appeared in the early nineties *sigh*

  40. elementary watson

    There has already been a why I use working class scum as an insult comment so it can't be far behind.

  41. frog2: I have an awful feeling that the suggestions that get taken on will be the ones that affect the bottom of the heap rather than the higher-ups, but we live in hope. My biggest problem is with eroding the pay and conditions of public sector workers who are already in the job and have provided years of labour in the expectation of one package, then get a less favourable one foisted on them against their will. I wouldn't put it past the bastards to be honest, or the courts to rule it an acceptable response to the harsh financial climate. We'll see...

  42. Hello All,

    With all these mitotic new threads around is there anyway of keeping track of them all (and potential replies) without:

    A) Checking them compulsively


    B) Signing up to have every post e-mailed to you?

  43. Elementary,

    Well, yeah, but I suppose that's what happens when some trendy 20-somethings called Charlie and Duncan try and do history.

    (Even wiki-bloody-pedia says 1991, FFS)

    (And I'm also not sure drugs would enhance the experience either. I can't think of anything worse than being under the influence (maybe feeling a bit paranoid), going to use the facilities, and then hearing Mag's voice whispering in my ear.....*shudders*)

  44. Another day. again not much happening.

    Beautiful day again.

    Too busy for Cif, but glanced at Cath Elliot. FFS.

    Enjoy your days. I am in a bit of a bad situation, but I am young an healthy. Hands are idle. Need labour....

  45. Any luck with the volunteering Nap? If you can make it to Jedburgh, I can get you (unpaid) gardening experience! ; )

  46. I hope things aren't too bad Nap but if they are don't ignore how you feel.

    I know you have had difficulties in the past so maybe a visit to a Dr might be in order.

  47. Turm.

    The volunteering that I am set up to do isn't realy happening yet. I pop in most weekdays, to chat, steal their internet acess, have a cup of tea and practise my Russian, but other than that it is sluggish. I hope to do some TEFL, but they are not really doing it over the summer.

    Jedburgh is not far away. Thanks for your offer, but there are tons of volunteering oppurtunites in Glasgow, it is just that they are all so sluggish- and this is volunteering, not working, it should be even less sluggish. I am currently signed up for 3 things this one I am 'doing' now, and 2 I am waiting to here back from. Sigh!

  48. Nap,

    A gentle polite reminder might not go astray: I work with volunteers, and I have to admit sometimes I take on the keen/pushy ones because they're the ones that keep reminding me they exist....

  49. Jen. Thanks for your concern, but really the last thing I want to do is go on antidepressants again. I just need fresh air, socialisng and a sense of purpose

    Dot, thanks too. I will try and remind people of my existence.

    Anyways, my library acess is about to expire. Enjoy the summer days. At least all this free time gives me chance to broaden my horizons.- I think I will learn Hungarian.

  50. James: Maybe it's because I'm not British. Evil Overlord Chancellors probably have a higher camp appeal if they never ruled one's own country (or tried to).

    Also, the drugs I was thinking of were rather those containing C2H5OH

  51. The last word on England's World Cup exploits.

  52. Elementary

    "Maybe it's because I'm not British. Evil Overlord Chancellors probably have a higher camp appeal if they never ruled one's own country (or tried to)".

    You're probably right.
    But one can't help thinking that Maggie(/Ronnie) not ruling over your country (and all the others) was perhaps one of those 'there but for the grace...' whatsits.


  53. Napoleon

    If i remember correctly you said in the past you weren,t claiming benefits at the moment.None of my business i know but it might be a good idea to sigh on for JSA.It,s not much but if you,re sighning on they will also pay your NI credits towards your basic state pension.And you may be eligible to do some courses which the DWP will pay for.

    It may not be much but it sounds like you need a bit of structure to your life.Dunno if that,s helpful but at least it may give you an option to consider.

  54. It,s sign and signing FFS.

  55. @Napoleon

    Good luck with Hungarian! A Uralic rather than an Indo-European language and, by all accounts, hellishly difficult for Indo-European native speakers. Lots of lovely declensions!

  56. Also, Montana

    I'll see your

    "You can observe a lot by just watching".

    and raise you a

    "Nobody goes there anymore - it's too crowded!!"


  57. 'There's no demand for it. I have to tell a lot of people that.'

    And the ultimate...

    'We're all in this together'

  58. James/Turminder

    I was once told: "You shouldn't be on the road if you can't drive"

    (I was 17, on a quiet country lane, with 6 million L plates on the car, and my Dad in the passenger seat.......)

  59. In 1980, I was on strike in Paris and was told, "If you don't like it here, go back to England. There's plenty of French people to do your job."

    I was teaching English as a foreign language at the time.

  60. Afternoon all

    Moozik blog! Excellent idea. No minimal techno there I see. Tsk.

    I shall have to keep the squeaks, bleeps and crunches all to meself then :p

    His Grace the 13th Duke of Wybourne's piece on UT2 is funny as f00k for anyone who has not seen it yet. Although it makes me uncomfortable to laugh at it because it is way too near the knuckle. Brilliant though.

    My uncle used to own the Abbey Cafe in Jedburgh. Just so's ye ken, like...

  61. Andrew Brown must be jealous of all the hits Caths' article is getting, he has put up another 'Richard Dawkins is a nutcase' article up, he might be disappointed the same article went up last week.

  62. Phew...off the treadmill......going to sit in the sun with a large g 'n t


    Do away with our final salary pension scheme and replace it with one based on average pay over the entire service.

    Good idea, much fairer - I might suggest that myself too.

  63. I threw caution to the wind earlier and cancelled my posts about Bru,Hitler and the Internet.Felt i could be straying into the realm of bad taste.However i feel there is a script there to be had for anyone so inclined.The sublime 'Mavis' once wrote a precis about the life and times of 'Mme Bruxelles'.But adding Hitler and the Internet could give it some interesting twists.And perhaps provide that 'little something extra' that could one day turn Mme Bruxelles into a Hollywood Blockbuster.-X rated of course!

  64. speedkermit 14.30

    @frog2: I have an awful feeling that the suggestions that get taken on will be the ones that affect the bottom of the heap rather than the higher-ups, but we live in hope.
    Some time ago, looking at the deficit-problem, it seemed that one possible solution to the existing State pension outgoings was to retrospectively redistribute them. No cut at all to the lower ones , but a maximum payout at say 8 (or whatever) times theirs', and a sliding scale in between . The Coalition has introduced the 20times maximum on Salaries , which is an interesting beginning in setting the terms for a debate on distribution . May well have been 'spin' but could come back to bite them.

    The same applies equally to the private sector. If the stockmarket and commercial property etc take another serious hit, that could be a serious proposition all around. When Pension Funds do go bust now, the Insurance Fund I believe pays out a max of £27,000 pa.

    Politically too radical perhaps, for now, but maybe sometime in the (near ?) future . The choice between chaos and genuinely sharing the pain ...

    PS Haven't done the numbers, but there may be something in this...

    Some years ago now my sister was PA to the 'director' of a Sixth Form College. He was on £100,000 and a jumped-up useless shit, earned about six times her salary but she did much of his job. I wonder how much pension that bastard gets ?

    Off to mow a meadow...

  65. I see the Shanghai Composite index fell 4.3% today, according to GolemXIV. Quick off the mark as usual.

    Alright the Allotment Squad, get fell in. Work to do.

  66. Well that was some time ago ... but the rest follow. The front page of the FT is more than a little gloomy... in fact very unhappy


    I think I'll start a run on wholemeal flour :)


  67. G 'n' T, Sheff - I could do with one of those... only got beer in though I think. Ah well.

    I see Theresa May has been making friends with the boys in blue by telling them that she will be "ruthless on waste".

    Silly cow. She hasn't understood that when the shit hits the fan and she is expecting the rozzers to shore up the Tory war on the poor, they will all be on work to rule now... heheheh.

  68. Symbolic, or what?

    From HAARETZ

    Israel seizes oxygen machines donated to PA

    Seven machines donated by Norwegian agency confiscated en route to PA over chance generators attached could be used for purposes other than medical treatment, Ma'an reports.

    By Haaretz Service

    Israel confiscated seven oxygen machines en route to hospitals in the West
    Bank and Gaza based on the claim that there was a chance the generators
    attached to the machines would not be used for medical purposes, Palestinian news agency Ma'an reported Saturday.

    According to Ma'an, the Ramallah-based health ministry said that the
    generators, which were donated to the Palestinian Authority by a Norwegian development agency, were seized by Israeli officials despite the fact that only one machine was bound for Gaza.

    The generators "came under the category of possible use for non-medical
    purposes" if they were delivered to southern Gaza, the Palestinian health
    ministry said in a statement, adding that the six other machines were bound for government hospitals in the northern Gaza, inducing the European Hospital in Gaza City, the Rafdieyah hospital in Nablus, and other facilities in Ramallah and Hebron.

    The Ministry of Health appealed to the Norwegian Development Agency, which supplied the machines, and asked that they intervene and demand the release of the equipment at the soonest possible date, Ma'an reported.

    "Any delay in obtaining the medical equipment will negatively affect the
    health of patients," the statement concluded.

  69. BB

    Looks like May could be well on the way to convincing the police that its a worker you've got on both ends of the baton and that we're all being shat on by tosspots like her.

  70. Are the coalition actually trying to start riots, or are they just dense?

  71. Jenni
    they are reying upon the general density and clumping abilities of their nasy supporters to protect from any violence.

    Look - or don't, simply imagine . the Incap thread.

    Plenty of boneheads there to take the brunt of the anger - they think.

  72. Jenn

    About as dense as WeAreTheWorld on the Russian spies thread, who said:

    this shows how dangerous and deceptive communist sympathisers can be.


  73. I've just had a phonecall, my sisters ex, who she was with for 10 years apparently dropped dead of an aneurysm a while ago.

    We weren't exactly close but he was only 37 and I don't think I have ever known anyone younger than me who has died, I am a bit in shock.

    I don't know whether to have a few drinks in his memory or eat something healthy and do some exercise.

  74. jenn

    Only 37. it's very bad luck but not that uncommon. If I were you I'd do some exercise, eat something healthy and then have a large one.

  75. jenn

    Condolences. I lost a friend at that age, although he was older than me at the time. It fucks you up. Everyone expects "old people" to die, but when it is one of your own age group, it is a real shock.

    Riots? Clegg was warning of them before the election. Ironic that he is now part of the government that is most likely to foment them.

  76. Jenni

    distressing news . Have a small drink and a walk in the sunshine.

    Always sad when younger people die - a momento mori which hits us hard.

    Hope your sister is OK. xx

  77. Jen - sorry to hear that, it must be a big shock. I'd go for the big drink, but others' advice is probably (almost definitely) better.

  78. Changing the subject completely, as always, I heard a great programme on R4 on the way home today, about eden ahbez, who is most famous for being the composer of the song Nature Boy, originally sung by Nat King Cole (although I prefer the George Benson version).

    I had no idea that this guy was a hippy before people had even heard of hippies, way back in the 50s. He apparently lived with his wife and son in the open air under the Hollywood sign in LA, and had a whole band of "nature boys" - some would have called them vagrants I guess - who used to live outdoors and live off fruits and berries and nuts for their health, etc.

    Really fascinating documentary. It's on the R4 "listen again" here.

  79. Peter J

    'Hermione Gingold' is now on your blacklist?

    FFS what is it with some UTers and Hermione?

    She,s harmless.She has her niche on CIF which she herself is the first to admit is 'lightweight'.But she is just the sort of 'floating voter' the Left has got to win over if we are to ever gain power and start making a difference.

    First Hermione is treated by Hank like she,s branded with the mark of the beast.And now you,at the instigation of Montana it seems,are putting her on your blacklist.

    Dear oh dear!! There are quite a few people on CIF who i,d quite happily skin alive.But Hermione Gingold ain,t one of them.So if there is something about Hermione that makes her a legitimate target for the venom of certain UTers i,d be really grateful if someone would explain to me what it is.

  80. @sheff

    I was curious about that oxygen machine story, since the only source for it seemed to be the PA news agency, and it was very detail-light; on top of that, Ha'aretz just seemed to be repeating it rather than investigating it.

    Searching around, the only mentions of this story are rehashes of the Ma'an Agency/Ha'aretz report, repeated around the anti-Israel echo chamber. I couldn't find a reference on Norwegian newspaper sites, including ones notably hostile to Israel like Aftenbladet, and Israeli sources seem more mystified by it than defensive.

    It could be true, as nobody should underestimate the boneheadedness of Israeli officials at times, but it shouldn't instantly be accepted as gospel.

  81. @Jenn

    Sorry to hear that.

    I had an experience like that quite young, at 22. I'd recently arrived in France when I read in the paper that a good mate's younger brother had gone off the road and into a lake in his car with three passengers. They were all killed. All aged 19 to 21. At one time, I'd been going out with one of them briefly. A very, very weird feeling.

  82. This comment has been removed by the author.

  83. PeterJ

    You may be right - disinformation is an art form on both sides. But I got it from a normally very reliable source at the UN and it was published in Haaretz. The Israeli gov hasn't denied it as far as I'm aware.

  84. Ditto'ing paul about hermione. Elle ne mange pas de pain, as the French would say. She does no harm at all, and at times is very funny with her one-liners. There are far more offensive posters to be reckoned with. I am developing a particular dislike for "tofu" who I think I have sussed as a familiar BNPer with a new nick. Vicious creature he is.

    Deano - lovely to see you back! Thanks for the linky. I was really fascinated at the concept of "nature boys" a good decade before all that kind of stuff entered the "mainstream" as it were. Suberb.

  85. Yeah, I like Hermione. GSOH, as they say.

  86. Great idea posting the link txt (for HTML) at the side, could this be a feature on all the pages?

    Oh, I think I could probably make that happen.

    Other things:

    That club is just sick (and I don't mean that in the skateboarder good way). I'm guessing that the morons who came up with the idea & designed it aren't old enough to actually remember the 80s. For one thing, they seem to be underestimating the visceral loathing that any sane person who lived in Britain at the time feels for her ('85 & '86 were enough to do it for me). For another, Sonic Hedgehog isn't the only anachronism. Rubik's cube came out in the mid-70s. God only knows what else they got wrong. Of course, the target demographic for the place probably wasn't born until the decade was almost over, so they won't know the difference.

    @James: Yeah, well it ain't over 'til it's over.

    (Yogism appropriate to the Maggie-themed club: Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.)

    @Jenn: Sorry to hear about your sister's ex. It really is unsettling when a peer dies. Three of my classmates are already gone and a few years ago, a good friend who was in the year behind me died -- stomach cancer that spread throughout her entire body. Casualty of the American "healthcare" system. She wasn't feeling good for months, but wouldn't go to the doctor because she couldn't afford it. By the time it hurt so bad she couldn't ignore it any more, it was way too late to do anything for her.

    Apropos of nowt:

    David Villa bears an uncomfortable resemblance to my son's father.

  87. First Hermione is treated by Hank like she,s branded with the mark of the beast.And now you,at the instigation of Montana it seems,are putting her on your blacklist.

    I had fuck all to do with it -- I actually like Hermione.

  88. David Villa bears an uncomfortable resemblance to my son's father.

    It's worrying when that happens, isn't it?

    Nicholas Lyndhurst is the spitting image of my ex-husband. For years I had to turn the TV over if he came on...

  89. ''I had fuck all to do with it -- I actually like Hermione. ''

    Well according to PETER J,s Post to you at 4.01 am this morning you did have fuck all to do with it.

    I quote

    'After your instructive example earlier i just looked at Hermione Gingolds comments en-masse

    Bloody Hell,I thought she was harmless etc etc etc........... Another one on my blacklist

    And you certainly didn,t post Peter back and say ' I actually like Hermione' which in all fairness i thought you did.Although you,ve never spoken up to defend her.

    Perhaps best to delete the evidence if you haven,t already !

  90. @Paul

    There's no need to have a go at Montana. The example I was talking about was that of reading a commenter's comments en masse via his or her profile, which she had mentioned earlier. Nothing to do with hermionegingold, which was all my own work.

  91. The instructive example, as near as I can tell, was that I went to Bru's profile to find a couple of comments that she'd made that had been discussed here. Bru -- not Hermione. You'd have to ask Peter why he looked at Hermione's profile -- it most certainly wasn't because I told him to and I'm unaware of any obligation on my part to defend her whenever someone voices dislike.

  92. @BB -- yes, it is. If I didn't enjoy the sight of Fernando Torres so much, I don't think I could watch Spain at all.

  93. Montana

    Apologies.The post however certainly gives the impression that Peter was acting on something you,d said about Hermione.

  94. Peter J

    OK .I,ve apologised to Montana but don,t understand why SOME people here hate Hermione so much .And what it is about her that made you suddenly change your mind and put her on your blacklist.Was simply curious.But heh this is UT so i can ask but you don,t need to explain.:-)

  95. @Paul

    Will be happy to, when I get back home. Hard to type coherently on the phone in this pub...

  96. Just read Cath Elliott on class. This was posted by a Belgian resident who 'surprisingly' decided to recast the debate in terms of 'sides'...it's official..it's not class it's 'sides'..there's the good side and the bad side...strangely she neglected to mention which side she, her high powered executives and her Italian prince friends were on

    #The test of whose side you're on is if - when push comes to shove - you would be prepared to give up all you have earned tomorrow and return to your roots if principle should demand it dragging your children with you.#

    That's the test.."if principle should demand it"...apparently. How the fuck and why the fuck would principle ever demand it? What possible set of circumstances-what push or shove-would demand it?

    "And Lo Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that all the World should return to their roots and take their kids with them."

    It's like saying the real test of whether you care about the planet is whether you'd let a unicorn live in your back yard.

  97. Right, have just googled the 2 blokes mentioned above. Montana, hope he didn't have the silly little bit of hair below his lips. BB, the Hitler pic that came up was slightly disturbing.

    Paul, I've never had a particular problem with Hermione, but her failure to grasp Monbiot's irony today was rather stunning.

  98. *Satire* I should say - "irony" is a word much-abused and mis-applied.

  99. Perhaps she'd had a few. That's when people usually post inappropriately/out of character.

  100. evening all

    were you on the streets welcoming berlusconi? If you have a minute can you organise his "disappearence".........

    great read on U2 thanks

  101. Hermione's class..pure class..I'd rank her with Gerd Muller, Jimmy Greaves, Sniffer Clarke..goal hanging royalty.

    Bit harsh maybe but I know it'll give her a wry smile as she pulls in at South Mimms for a bacon butty and checks the laptop. Believe me, you need something to keep the spirits up when you're taking a tanker load of fertilizer up to South Shields every other night.

  102. Hermione alluded to the Monbiot affair on Whaddya at 21.07 if anyone's interested.

  103. Monkeyfish

    ''Believe me, you need something to keep the spirits up when you're taking a tanker load of fertilizer up to South Shields every other night.''

    I dunno mate! If you,re suggesting Hermione,s full of shit then that would give you something in common with her.Except she,s actually funny!

  104. Gandolfo

    God no, I didn't even know he was here.

    I just checked the newspapers, and it's quite well hidden, (as if they're maybe a wee bit embarrassed by it)?!

    There Certainly wasn't any pictures of millions welcoming him or anything - just one of him grinning like an eejit while being presented with a Brazil shirt!

    Anyways, I'll have a 'word' with a few of my 'associates', and see what I can do!!


    "Yeah, well it ain't over 'til it's over".

    Ahhhh, Well played. I think that comeback makes you the winner. Although.....

    "You wouldn't have won if I'd beaten you!!

    (This Yogi Berra daft quote game could literally go on for days...)


  105. I have a Kevin Keegan quotes mail somewhere...

  106. James

    well he's kind of nipped in to do some business (10 billion US dollars est)between ENI and Petrolas about subsalt oil extraxtion and infrastructural projects for the 2014 world cup (flashing light mafia warning!!)
    Personally I thought he was hiding out there whilst one of the founders of Forza Italia was being sentenced for colluding with the mafia today, if he had, (he wasn't surprise, surprise he was sentenced for mafia collusion prior but not after '92 when FI was formed) Berlusconi could have found himself in trouble...

    alas he'll be back, how fast can you get it sorted....I'll have a whip round....

  107. It's like saying the real test of whether you care about the planet is whether you'd let a unicorn live in your back yard.

    Well? Would you???

    Montana, hope he didn't have the silly little bit of hair below his lips.

    No, he didn't. Shave off the soul patch and lighten his hair a shade or two -- et voilĂ ! My son's father.


    Apology accepted for thinking I'd maligned Hermione. Now would you care to apologise for insinuating that I delete stuff that I think embarrasses me? That's another thing I've never done.

    Since we all seem to be proffering our opinions about Hermione -- her is mine:

    Yes, the vast majority of her comments are "fluff". As others have said, she doesn't pretend otherwise. She is usually funny and she usually, if not always, has the grace and humility to apologise when she has been wrong or unfair to someone.

    I don't understand why it irritates so many people that she frequently has one of the first few comments on many threads. I don't believe any of us knows her personal circumstances. Perhaps Cif is one of her only outlets for interaction with others for some reason. Who the hell am I to judge whether she's using her time in the best way possible? It's her time. It's her internet connection.

    I also think that people are making the mistake of thinking that, because her comments are usually short and humorous, they are always inconsequential. I've seen her get some pretty acid remarks tucked into a sentence or two and sometimes the short sharp zingers are more effective than a five paragraph rant.

  108. Gandolfo

    "I'll have a whip round...."

    No need.
    I'll do this thing for you, then, some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me.



    Silly bit of hair below his lip?

    Before I went with the 'Can't be arsed to shave properly so I'll go with a full beard' look, I was the proud, and some would say, dashing*, owner of a soul patch, thank you very much...

    *me. It was mostly me wot sed it!!

  109. @James:

    It's deja vu all over again.

  110. Paul

    #I dunno mate! If you,re suggesting Hermione,s full of shit then that would give you something in common with her.Except she,s actually funny!#

    Oh...please..no..that's so hurtful..

    fuckin knobhead

    Oh..here's a thing..

    #However i feel there is a script there to be had for anyone so inclined.The sublime 'Mavis' once wrote a precis about the life and times of 'Mme Bruxelles'.#

    Well I'm way funnier and more sublime than that stupid cow Mavis.

  111. Montana

    I'm bowing out of this contest graciously.

    I don't want to make a wrong mistake...

  112. James

    I get it you scratch my back I'll scratch yours......what happened to universal solidarity??!!?? call yourself a leftie.....beh!

    ok......mum's the word ;)

  113. Bloody hell, this copy and pasting links malarkey is frying my wires.
    Given that I got bowled a few "googlies" last night, I thought I'd have a pop at today's suggestion (top right).
    Sure enough; caught at short leg attempting a reverse sweep!

    "Your HTML cannot be accepted: Closing tag has no matching opening tag:A"

    Are there really so many ways to do this, or did I miss something?

  114. Gandolfo

    Yeah, solidarity schmolidarity.

    I've been waiting years to use a proper Godfather quote, and I don't think I'll ever get a better chance than that....

  115. Montana

    ''She is usually funny and she usually, if not always, has the grace and humility to apologise when she has been wrong or unfair to someone.''

    Now who does that remind me of?

    ''Now would you care to apologise for insinuating that I delete stuff that I think embarrasses me? That's another thing I've never done. ''

    What do you think given your track record toward me?

    Cue Montana-'well fiddley dee,what has little ole me ever done to you'

    I always apologize when i know i,m wrong.Which is why i apologized to you tonight.Although i could have added that if you were talking about BRU whilst Peter responded with his post about Hermione then why didn,t you correct him?You did after all post again after Peter on that thread.

    Anyway as i said to you before if you don,t want me posting on your blog anymore just say so and i,ll stop.However i will of course jump in if i,m ever lurking and find i,m being slated.There are after all a lot of lurkers on this thread.People who observe a lot by just watching.

  116. @chekhov

    <a href="some.example.co.uk">linky text</a>

  117. Chekov

    yep you missed something...no space between the < and "a"

    {a href="URL"}Text{/a} { }replace with > <


    "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, James. Just my enemies." (GF2 poetic licence used!)

  118. @gandolpfo

    you don't have to mess about with curly braces

    ampersandltsemicolon will yield a <
    ampersandgtsemicolon will yield a >

    & lt ;
    & gt ;

    without the whitespace.

  119. medve

    yer but when i tried to post it with the < > it wouldn't let me!

    tries again


  120. Gandolfo

    "I need a man who has powerful friends. I need a million dollars in cash. I need, Gandolfo Corleone, all of those politicians that you carry around in your pocket, like so many nickels and dimes".

  121. monkeyfish

    Actually i quite liked you as Mavis.The woman inside you clearly brings out your creative side.

    ''fuckin knobhead''

    Aah diddums did i hit a nerve?

  122. @chekhov

    extra tip you can copy and paste my some.example.co.uk linky into the Post a Comment box and just replace the some.example.co.uk with say


    linky to untrusted reads

  123. James:

    "I want your answer and the money by noon tomorrow. And one more thing. Don't you contact me again, ever."


  124. @gandolfo

    <a href="http://untrustedreads.blogspot.com/">linky text to upset gandolfo</a>

  125. @gandolfo

    the trick is not to let blogspot's software realise there is a tag in there.

    There are only a limited number recognised:

    <a> closed by </a> for an anchor (which can contain a linky)

    b for bold
    i for italic

    There may be a few more.

  126. Gandolfo

    I was just turning off the computer, but...

    'everytime I think I'm out, you pull me back in...'

    and, also

    What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully?!!


    Right, I am out now. Ate amanha amigos!

  127. this is an anchor i have replaced the href="url" with name="night night" moving the mouse over the anchor might be interesting.

    night night

  128. @medve

    Or then again it might not be.

  129. James
    I'm going to take a nap. When I wake up, if the money is on the table, I'll know I have a partner. If it isn't, I'll know I don't.

    I think I'll stick to my use of "over there" for links!!

    night all, buona notte!

  130. @Turminder: stone the crows, that link to HTML tutorials brought me out in a cold sweat!
    Actually your previous post with instructions nearly got me across the finishing line.
    I managed to copy and paste it into "notebook" and then print it.
    Then I followed your instructions to the letter and a link was indeed displayed on here.
    However, no one was able to access it!

    Anyway thanks to all for their efforts in attempting to help me out.
    When I finally crack it, the drinks are on me!

  131. Hi All

    checkhov--I feel your pain brother, been trying this link stuff for a while now, with no success. Will get friend in to show me first hand.

    For James,Montana--"That pitch sounded low" Yogi Berra lacks education and, of course, an understanding of the language, but he was a damn fine ballplayer.

  132. Grrr... that didn't work either.
    I've got a sledge hammer in the garden shed, would that be of any use?

  133. Chekhov - possible that the reason the link didn't work was because you didn't get all of the address copied and pasted.

    Try it again with a simple short address say for the Guardian as an example ie.


    to get that as link we write:

    {a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/}Guardian{/a}

    if you copy and paste the above and then change for < for { and > for } it should work

    and you will have a worked example

  134. "Oil prices fell 3% and the Baltic dry freight index, which measures demand, fell to its lowest level for nine months."

    Little talked about but very good indicator.
    That's why it gets so very little prominence.
    Said the cynic.

  135. Yes it works try it.

    All you are doing is replacing the right facing curly bracket } with a > and the left facing curly { with a <

  136. This comment has been removed by the author.

  137. Hi Deano that Larry Elliot thread got a few comments rather fast, ...

  138. Cheers Chekhov - keep at it, it suddenly clicks and then you see how it works

    Lot of worrying signals out there frog2!! As the wiser are saying the chance of surviving another self induced banking crisis ain't good.

  139. Hi Deano, thanks for the tip. I only removed my last post because I made a complete dogs breakfast in typing it.
    Good to see you back btw.
    It's a bit late now but I'll have another bash tomorrow with regard to your advice on posting links.

  140. I posted at c 16.30 to speedkermit on something about pensions that probably should have been in the budget.
    Then that I was going to start a run on wholemeal flour:)

    Down the ATM , then the local supermarket in our v small town only sells useless white flour, and sexy pre-prepared bread mixes. One kilo of organic proper flour.

    Headline in Biggest daily in frogland Ouest France -- "Gov austerity measures - they're cutting own car pool etc ...".
    Neat preparation for coming headlines in a few days. Get in first.

    Looked at the few overweight shoppers and thought - a diet'll do you good..

    Bourse down 4% and my own Farmers Bank 8%.

    Lay down listening to File on Four -- Fucking RBS would lend that bloke £2m IF he'd deposit £2m. Poor sod sold his factory etc.

    Zonked & woke a while ago.
    Turminder and I were dicussing chapatis a week ago. Wholemeal and water and just a little heat compared to baking bread !

    Suggest a new sidebar thread to Ms Wildhack.

    Austerity Cooking ;)

  141. Hello Frog

    Austerity cooking - good idea. I can make chapatis but can't eat them. Gluten free flour doesn't stick together. things often fall to crumbs unless I stick 'em together with an egg. have lots of odd recipes though.

  142. chekhov

    your linky things are like my gluten free cooking - falling to bits. Try adding an egg.

    Nightnight both xx

  143. @inmateD30: Deano: are you left handed? I'm only asking because you explained the use of ">" from right to left rather than left to right.
    Don't really know if that is significant but it sort of jarred with me.
    Interesting stuff for a thread on "south paws" on Cif or even on here for that matter!
    of course some people are ambidextrous; the great cricketer, Brian Close could play golf on single figures handicap both right and left handed.
    There's all sorts of other connotations; for instance that "sinister" is associated with "left" whereas "droit" is associated with "right" as in "Mon Dieu et mon Droit"

    Not sure if I quoted that correctly, so feel free to put me right on that.

    La Rive Gauche (the left bank) of the Seine is always associated with the avant guard and let's face it the yanks are pathologically induced to fear the word "left" as anathema!

  144. NN Leni !

    I'm just going to write the formula on a postcard and stick up in front of me, as I did ten years and more ago.

    Make a mistake in the syntax, like an extra space even, and it doesn't work.

    If it doesn't work, look hard !

  145. Montana

    Ok i,ll tell you where i think you,ve been unreasonable to me.

    1/ My one-off car crash moment on UT.

    I didn,t subject Habib to a full-on racist rant.In my mad moment i said crap like Paki bwoi,these white people call you paki bwoi,they call you paki and me nigger.Why is it that you and me are still working and all these White folks are sleeping.Crap like that.Yet you,habib,and to a lesser extent scherfig have thrown it back in my face and made out i called habib paki like some BNP supporter.

    Ironically from what i remember i was actually more offensive to other people .And for the record i actually feel more guilty about that.Because whilst i did apologize to everyone the following morning i do remember apologizing profusely to habib at the time.Even though i feel in hindsight that i was less offensive to habib than i was to other people .

    2/ The N word and Turminder.

    Turminder actually mentioned this UT 'incident' on CIF and i responded to that.You decided to stick your oar in on CIF and i then responded to that.You then said it was UT business and suggested we go over to UT to sort it out.Which i did to be met by scherfig.Me and scherfig then slugged it out for a couple of hours cyber style whilst you sat back and said nothing.When you did finally post me you made out you had 'innocently ' suggested we come to UT to sort things out conveniently forgetting your post which had attacked me in the first place.

    At the time both you and scherfig told me that habib had been so upset by my original outburst that he wasn,t posting on UT anymore.I then offered to stop posting on UT but habib asked me to stay.

    3/Until the recent exchange between me and habib there had been no further problem.But again you chose to intervene and upped the ante by telling me that i had made a number of comments-both on CIF and UT-which he had interpreted as islamaphobic.I reject this and as you made the accusation the burden of proof is on you to make your case .And nothing you have said so far supports your accusation which i find offensive.And the excuse you gave for both you and habib not engaging me about my views was that i will only resort to ad hominem ect-ie using my one-off car crash moment which happened at a time of extreme stress which i explained and apologized for.

    So Montana if you still think you haven,t done anything wrong then we clearly still have a problem.And it,s your call where we go from here.

  146. Two Larry Elliot things at 9 last night. Hecould have done just one good one,, but I suppose its about page hits or summink.

    GGD on the one on the North actually gets closer to the truth than all the silly sods screaming about LibLabCon.

    The writing has been on the wall for decades.

  147. @frog2: thanks for that. I will be looking as hard a possible!

  148. Paul
    Looks as tho you have a hole in your tooth and can't help sticking your tongue in it ?

  149. Paul

    ave spent last 2 hours reading socioeconomic reports on Aberdeen + Burnley.

    The Aberdeen one will have to be revisited as much of it was based on the assumption that the oil industry would be running down. Things are now about to change.

    Currently lot of low waged jobs in Aberdeen - report points out this does not equate to low incomes - benefit topups.

    Burnley has one of the highest rates of long term sick allied to a very high % of unskilled workers and high immigrant population.

  150. This comment has been removed by the author.

  151. Hi Deano

    Are we all insomniacs here ? I will dream of curly brackets - and flat prostrated ones as well.

  152. This comment has been removed by the author.

  153. frog 2

    It looks like you don,t know the full facts and need to keep you cuntish comments to yourself arsehole.

  154. Have you seen Montana's 'How to post a link' ? Top right hand corner.

  155. @ Paul; so you had a "car crash" on UT. Get over it. We all makes ourselves look like stupid twats now and again.
    You have done the decent thing and apologised, now move on and put your grudge to bed.
    Sorry for interferring in stuff that is not my business and feel free to call me out for doing so but this feud is getting rather tiresome.

  156. {a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/}Guardian{/a}

    Chekhov in the above formula there are four curly brackets [two left facing {'s ] and [two right facing }'s ]

    simply replace the left facing curly brackets {'s with left facing <'s and the right facing }'s with right facing >'s and hey presto you have a live link!

    Thus this

    {a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/}Guardian{/a}

    by changing the curly brackets converts to this live link:

    good night all

  157. Paul two hour flamewars are a waste of life ;)

    Leni you said NN ! Will look.

  158. chekhov

    I like you so let me explain this.The only reason i,m bringing this up is because of a series of events that Montana has exaccerbated but refuses to acknowledge.

    However you are right feuds can be very tiresome for people not involved.Which is why people like frog 2 should keep their stupid comments to themselves.Also my friend tell Montana what you,ve told me next time she shoots her mouth off via a post.

  159. frog2

    Well let,s see if you,re so opinionated next time Montana shoots her mouth off.For some reason when she does people here either say nothing or rapidly crawl up her backside.Yet she said she wants to be treated like everyone else.

    And for the record the reason i left my post was to precis a series of events which in my opinion Montana has inflamed.

  160. chekhov and frog 2

    And next time all the 'veterans' here start shooting their mouths off about their ongoing 'issues' are you guys going to speak out.Probably not.So forgive me if i,m a bit touchy when you start lecturing me.

    btw chekhow -as i say i like you mate .And frog 2 i don,t know you but apologies for swearing at you.

  161. Although i could have added that if you were talking about BRU whilst Peter responded with his post about Hermione then why didn,t you correct him?You did after all post again after Peter on that thread.

    Well, because there was fuck all to "correct". Peter is a big boy and he is entitled to his own opinion of Hermione. I am under no obligation to argue about it. He looked at Hermione's profile, came to a conclusion about her, and voiced his opinion here. I read it, disagreed with it, but didn't deem it important enough to take issue with.

    Lots of opinions get voiced here that I don't agree with but don't argue with because it just isn't that big a deal to me for one reason or another.

    And you are right -- I am utterly at a loss as to what I owe you an apology for. You made a comment on 20 June that struck Habib and me (individually and with no private conversation about it) as anti-Muslim. For all you or I know, it may have struck others as anti-Muslim, but they chose not to argue with it for one reason or another. Habib responded here. I initially didn't.

    On 25 June, Habib told Hank that he is "England 'til I die." You came back with this:

    You,ve changed your tune.So how do you justify in effect calling me a nazi the other night for challenging certain cultural attitudes in this country,s Muslim communities.Which in my opinion are a factor in explaining the under-achievement of muslims in this country?

    I asked you (calmly and with no ad hominem remarks how it was hypocritical of Habib to say that he is "England 'til I die", pointed out that he was born in Liverpool and lives in Manchester and asked you when, in your book, he gets to consider himself fully English.

    You responded with:

    I know that Habib is permanently attached to your breast these days but maybe it,s about time you let go and let him fight his own battles.

    Put your specs on sweetheart and read what i said.I said he did IN EFFECT call me a Nazi.And at no time has he -or you- ever explained what i,ve ever said that it so offensive.


    You need to re-read my posts and then read habibs and then come back and apologize.Don,t listen to all his pathetic posturing that you yourself indicated that HABIB does in his private e-mails to you.

    And don,t you dare throw back my one mad moment ages ago on UT which Habib also did the other night.Yes i called him a Paki in the context of 'Paki bwoi,that's what white folks call you paki bwoi.you,re a Paki and i,m a NIGGER ETC ETC.WHICH i apologized for a million and one times and which i ain,t gonna apologize for again.And when scherfig and yourself indicated that habib wasn,t posting on UT anymore because of me i offered to stop posting here and habib told me to stay.And since then there has been no problem until the other night.So not for the first time love you got your fucking facts wrong.

    btw-since the other night HABIB has never admitted he was a bit terse as you said.He may have said it in one of your private daily e-mails with him but never to me.

    which is pretty ad hominem and hysterical, given that all I'd done is ask you how it was hypocritical for Habib to voice support for England's football team.

    You've never answered my question and you've never explained why I owe you an apology for asking you a legitimate question.

    Now, I suspect that I'm reaching the character limit for a comment box, so I'll add a separate comment explaining to you just what is offensive about what you said.

  162. Paul
    No sweat. I'm just going to experiment with link, to GGD; He is just a bit older even than me & Deano.

    Are we in a crisis that will ,eventually, pass, or do we have to rethink Consumerism and the quality of life ?


  163. frog 2

    no worries and apologies once again

  164. Great link frog2

    Problem for me is that I seem to know most of the patches of land in both the West Riding of Yorks and Shropshire that GGD thinks should be cultivated as allotments.....

    I think he's star too.

  165. montana

    Are you really dumb or what.You,re just not getting what i,m saying .As always you are selectively using stuff rather seeing thingsin their whole context.And the bottom line is that in your head you,re never wrong.And you will keep digging deeper and deeper trying to involve other people and throwing your twisted and distorted version of events at me .

    Be honest Montana what you really want to happen is for other UT ers to step in and support you.To make me out to be some racist,islamaphobic nutjob.Well sorry sweetheart i,m not gonna sit back and let you do that.I,m not intersted in the BS that comes out of your mouth.You go either to CIF or here and show me what evidence you have to support your accusations.Or STFU.

  166. GGD does go on a bit, repeating the same msg, but he is right about re-thinking Consumerism and the fact that resources are finite and we can't go on polluting as we do. He'd be in the Transition Town movement here.

    He's knocked around the world and done all sorts of jobs, nuclear engineer, farming, lecturer,maintaining radar stations in the Arctic,councillor, the very opposite of those tossers we have in all our political parties .

    He is hon President of the (virtual)Golf Course Liberation Front.

  167. @Paul: I shouldn't have stuck my oar in. Best left for you and Montana to sort out your differences yourselves.
    Sorry, if pitching in my "two penneth" made it more difficult.
    I should have known better.
    It was a stupid mistake and I apologize.

  168. Frog2 - as you may know GGD has family in Shropshire (where I worked for several years) and he was brought up in the Aire valley where I went to school so I have a bit in common with his history...............

  169. DeanO -- a great bloke.

    He takes the long view which we all tend to lose in the short-term infighting about which politician said what, when.

    They are nearly all tossers. Some may have a clue (GGD-wise) but have no idea of how, politically, to get from here to there. The impediments are so great, the society so complex.

  170. Montana

    I,ve got work to do now.So i,ll leave you to find your evidence that i,m some sort of racist ,islamaphobic nutjob who is so scary no-one but you will dare challenge me.

  171. Checkhov

    this GGD's URL:


    This how frog2 converted it into the link he posted above:

    {a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/GreatGrandDad/comments}GGD is a star{/a}

    with the curyl {} changed to <> it comes out as:

    GGD is a star

  172. Sorry Chekhov no 'c' in Chekhov!

    eye strain and thus a final good night all.

    Great dawn chorus to take me to dream...............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  173. With that double-posted link Soon for bed !

  174. So this is why what you said is offensive:

    Black Americans make up a disproportionate number of America's welfare rolls and prison population. Overall, Black children test lower than any other ethnic group in the US, apart from Native Americans. If I ascribed this to "cultural attitudes" holding them back, I think you'd think that was pretty racist. And you'd be right.

    When you make blanket statements about Muslims being held back because of cultural attitudes within "Muslim communities", you're doing three things, all of which are offensive:

    1. You're ascribing one set of values & attitudes to an entire group.

    2. You're denying the very real discrimination experienced by British Muslims.

    3. You're implying that Musllims are not a part of the wider community.

    Now, as for your latest comment, made while I was composing the above:

    I'm not even going to bother rehashing your first and second "points".

    I wasn't referring to your "car crash" moment when I said that I had been ignoring comments that you'd made that struck me as anti-Muslim. I was referring to a general pattern you have of being nasty any time someone actually challenges an opinion of yours or says something to you that you don't like -- as you have once again demonstrated tonight with your reactions to chekhov and frog2.

    I really don't give a flying fuck what you do Paul. I'd intended to just ignore you altogether. But if you're going to accuse me of things I haven't done -- as you have done twice tonight -- I'll be damned if I'm going to ignore that.

  175. NN all , dawn chorus just starting here in Lower Normandy too.


  176. No, Paul. I'm not dumb, I'm not using things selectively and I most certainly don't expect anyone to come to my defence.

    As for seeing things in a wider context -- that is exactly what I am doing. I am seeing a pattern of anti-Muslim opinions and coming to the conclusion that you don't like Muslims. I have addressed two specific incidents tonight, quoting your exact words back to you. You have ignored my question (three times now) and continue to throw accusations at me without following your own demands of providing evidence.

    Until you can provide me with any exact quotes from me that would support all of the accusations you've been hurling my way, I don't believe I am under any further obligation to you.

    So, to quote you back to yourself again:

    You go either to CIF or here and show me what evidence you have to support your accusations.Or STFU

  177. Montana

    Sorry babe you,ve just exposed yourself for the ignorant bint you really are.Nothing you have thrown at me would stand up in a court of law.You,ve accused me repeatedly of being anti-muslim and haven,t got a shred of evidence to back it up.Yes i have issues with certain cultural practices that are widespread in Britains muslim communities but that doesn,t make me islamaphobic.And as far as habib is concerned i called him a paki in the context of white folks calling him a paki and me a nigger etc etc etc.And you have my permission to post the whole of my car crash moment--not just your selected bits- and let the UT community make their own mind up.

    And finally with your track record of subjecting people to ad hominens etc you are in no postion to lecture me about mine.Which incidentally i do far less than you.

  178. So, no evidence of any of the things you've accused me of, Paul? And why the continued refusal to answer my simple question? Here it is, one more time, just to remind you:

    How does a Liverpool native stating that he is "England 'til I die" amount to "changing your tune"?

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  180. #Actually i quite liked you as Mavis.The woman inside you clearly brings out your creative side.

    ''fuckin knobhead''

    Aah diddums did i hit a nerve? #

    Not exactly. I took the trouble to read some of your other posts, realised what a complete fuckin tool I was addressing and thought why bother posting anything more incisive?...particularly as you seem to have trouble 'getting' things...you really do don't you?

    See I would bother to think up a decent insult or two only..

    a) it would probably all be lost on you
    b) even if it weren't, it would be unfair since you seem to operate on a kinda primary school/ 'you're full of shit'/ 'same to you with knobs on'/ 'yer mam' level

    so basically, 'fuckin knobhead' it is...concise, accurate and 'accessible' enough for you...enjoy

  181. At the time both you and scherfig told me that habib had been so upset by my original outburst that he wasn,t posting on UT anymore.

    Paul, I never at any time told you anything about habib or how upset he was. I don't know the guy, have no contact with him, don't know how upset he was, and neither know nor care whether he posts here anymore or not. So you've got that completely wrong. Do me a favour and leave me out of whatever's going on here. Thanks.

  182. Montana

    I haven,t got you wrong but i,m quite happy for you to ignore me.Life is to short for all this so we can agree on that at least.

    @scherfig-you did once suggest to me that Habib wasn,t posting here because of me.However you,re right i shouldn,t have involved you yesterday in something that is primarily between me,Montana and Habib.So apologies for that.:-)

    @monkeyfish-i couldn,t really care less what you think of me.I admit i liked your 'Mavis creation but other than that there seems to be a predictability about your posts .So when i see them i tend to 'scroll on by'.

  183. scherfig - you did once suggest to me that Habib wasn,t posting here because of me.

    No, Paul, I've never done that either. Please quote exactly what I said and when I said it, or shut the fuck up about it and drop these ridiculous insinuations. It seems to me that lots of posts 'suggest' lots of things to you that don't seem to even occur to other people, and you're making yourself look like a fool. I'm done with this now.

  184. scherfig

    I,m no fool scherfig and i didn,t imagine your suggestion to me that habib wasn,t posting because of me.It happened the night you chose to stick your oar in and stir things when Montana and i came to blows on CIF.As a result of what you-and Montana-said to me that that night i asked habib if he wanted me to stop posting and he said NO.

    And as for your assertion that i,m misunderstanding lots of posts from lots of people you,re talking bollocks-as well you know.