03 June 2010


Biden: ...Well, we had made it clear, the President of the United States has spoken three times, yesterday with Bibi, or the day before yesterday, he's spoken once yesterday with a guy that I have spent a fair amount of time with, with Prime Minister Erdogan in Turkey; the Turks, we passed a resolution in the UN saying we need a transparent and open investigation of what happened. It looks like things are...

Rose: International investigation?

Biden: Well, an investigation run by the Israelis,


  1. A joke from Nablus:

    " In a latest development, Somali pirates express outrage at israeli piracy methods which are contrary to the basic rules of piracy and discredit its goals "

  2. Gandolfo, James, anyone else interested

    re: The Netherlands voting against the UNHCR inquiry.

    Two words- Maxime Verhagen. He's the Foreign Minister and Pro-US/Israeli to his fingertips. I believe that voting on the side of the US is seen as some sort of apology for Dutch troops pulling out of Afghanistan which has led to the upcoming election.

    Verhagen's party, the CDA are expected to incur heavy losses in the election. However, the big winner is expected to be the VVD which is more right wing.

    Additionally, the VVD is actually considering including Geert Wilders in a coalition should the VVD come out as largest party.

  3. "In a latest development, Somali pirates express outrage at israeli piracy methods which are contrary to the basic rules of piracy and discredit its goals "


  4. Duke

    thanks for that I know very very little about dutch politics
    Wilders said this:
    "it is 'cheap' to attack Israel. 'I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves," mmm nice character.....


  5. Morning all,

    Re: Wilders

    I have this on rumour and no sources, but word has it that Wilders has been in Israel more than twenty times, also working at a kibbutz or two. Perhaps this is why the Dutch nazis are so "friendly" towards Israel.

  6. medve,

    Wilders is playing a canny game by being extremely pro-Israeli. He's trying to avoid the anti-semite extreme right knuckle draggers being attracted to his party.

    He's learned the lessons of Fortuyn's LPF which disintegrated amid acrimony and fallouts by keeping an extremely tight control on the PVV. It's not a political party in the traditional sense as there is no open membership.

    The PVV is essentially a Wilders ego trip but he's expected to make some significant gains (although not as high as previously expected) and is therefore seen as a potential coalition partner, although only the VVD haven't ruled him out as a coaltition partner.

    I've been watching him on the leaders debates and he's a clever political operator. I notice in the head to heads (where one leader talks directly to the other) he uses a clever rhetorical device. For instance, he's said in the past:

    "Muslim males are the cause of major crimes in Amsterdam",

    leading to the retort:

    "Not all Muslim males are the cause...."

    which makes it sound misleadingly as if there is a significant problem with "muslim male crime".

    He does this all the time and all the other leaders fall into this rhetorical trap.

    He's a ragbag of populist right and left wing policies but is given airtime as in the Netherlands (as you know!!) the political culture is open, free speech.

    Ultimately I don't think the VVD will go into coalition with him. As the leader of D66 said today, the Netherlands economy is 60-70% export driven.

    Having a rabid anti-foreigner (he claims only to be anti-muslim but he wants withdrawal from the EU and tough rules for any non-Dutch living in the Netherlands) in Government would not be good for business and overseas image.

  7. Feeling a bit shit today about the whole MAM sociopath stuff. Have deeply offended a couple of posters over on Cif who have personality disorders and I really didn't mean to do that - in future will think a lot more before typing.

    What has really freaked me out though is that they weren't so deeply offended by MAM suggesting that anyone with any mental illness should either be forced into work or immediately sectioned!

    I have said sorry for offence caused and will not bandy about such flippant comments again but I do stand by the fact that MAM is a deeply disturbed person with absolutely no empathy - however I will not be labelling that in future as any particular 'disorder'.

    On another note where IS Montana. Am starting to get a little concerned about her. Has anyone had any contact off her these last few days?

  8. princess,

    if said posters had actually looked at the history of the thread you were arguing on, said posters should have realised that you were defending sufferers of mental health against a viewpoint with no sympathy or understanding.

    Said posters are so sensitive that rather than take on the real offence themselves- MAM, they would rather sneer and take offence at someone who is battling on their behalves and never stops battling for them.

    Personally, I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

  9. Thanks your Dukeness. I should know better though - a lot of my friends work in mental health services and a lot of people in my family have mental health issues. And I know that personality disorders are very controversial and a lot of people who are labelled as having such absolutely despise and detest said label!

    I do believe that sociopaths and pscychopaths exist - have met a few in my time but as for the other categories of borderline, narcisstic etc etc - all very controversial.

    But I do think that people need to take a closer look at some of the stuff that MAM sprouts - I am surprised he hasn't been done for hate speech yet or something similar. God its lovely and hot in sunny South Yorks today!

    Interesting stuff by the way re the political situation over there. Bit worrying the swing to the right everywhere at the moment.

  10. princess,

    my point above was that rather than accept that what you said was in a moment of exasperation and frustration as you argued for them, they can't wait to take mock offence. You have been a staunch defender of the rights of Mental Health sufferers since day one, it's ridiculous they've taken offence with you.

    These issues are clearly important to them so why don't they get on and counter the bilge that MAM and his ilk are throwing rather than have a go at you?

    Yeah, over here is the same politically as everywhere else at the moment. I'm going to expand on it for a UT article after the election. Go and enjoy the sunshine!

  11. Biden is A.) as thick as two short planks and B.) off-message. I mean, you'd think even Slow Joe would start to wonder when that well known anti-semitic rag the New York Times says:

    On Tuesday, President Obama expressed his “deep regret” over the flotilla incident. He is doing Israel no favors with such a tepid response. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has shown time and again that he prefers bullying and confrontation over diplomacy. Washington needs to make clear to him just how dangerous and counterproductive that approach is.

    Mr. Obama needs to state clearly that the Israeli attack was unacceptable and back an impartial international investigation. The United States should also join the other permanent members of the United Nations Security Council — Britain, France, Russia and China — in urging Israel to permanently lift the blockade.

    That would lessen the suffering of the people in Gaza. And it would give the United States more credibility as it presses both Israelis and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to negotiate a peace deal. --The NYT, Editorial, yesterday

  12. PCC
    I second what duke says its somewhat ironic to take offence with your comments when MAM is spouting his usual offensive bile...

  13. PCC - i wouldnt worry too much, if we were only left with things that didnt offend ANYONE in the blogosphere we would have nothing to talk about. Unintentional offence is a consequence of open debate.

  14. @ PCC. MaM is talking pure shite again in relation to MH on the Right of Reply/PD thread. I've made my point quite clearly and politely over there. I think the person who took most offence at you was dosordered, who comes over very strangely: denying she has a MH problem, and that she's been mislabelled (which is her right and may be true), but then virtually denying the existence of certain psychopathologies like sociopathy and allying with MaM, possibly not realising that MaM's position is lock up all loonies forever, and those not on the severe side of things or currently in full-on crisis have nothing wrong with them. He doesn't do nuance or shades of grey (actually neither does disordered much), except when he's been caught out and then looks for wriggle room.

  15. Afternoon all


    Didn,t get involved in the thread which led to the PD issue.However i agree with what people here and
    Ally F on waddya have said.Namely that it,s not your
    style to upset people for the sake of upsetting them.
    So we,re probably talking about nothing more than
    a misunderstanding--easy to do on cyber.

    @Montana-Hope you,re OK.Am feeling a bit concerned
    by your absence.Hope it,s nothing serious.:-)

  16. Have e- mailed Montana. Probably she feels that absenting herself was one way of making someone else take a bit more responsibility here (thanks Jay).

    I know offered to do some because I am often up before 6:00 am but sods law operated and I had to mornings when I didn't wake till 8-ish!

    Will let you know if Montana replies.

    Of to Sheffield tomorrow!! (extra day necessary so I can get a nap in tomorrow afternoon before the meet up - poor old thing that I am!)

  17. afternoon all

    I got the email below from a friend which discusses how the Israeli state is trying to play the propaganda game in the face of the international outcry over the flotilla outrage. It seems they are distributing a PDF with talking points, and encouraging supporters to be citizen propagandists for their side.

    Dear Friend:

    Various Israeli official bodies, including the ministry for Hasbara [i.e. propaganda] have sent messages to Israeli citizens urging them to take an active part in the “propaganda war”. They are told not to ask questions but rather to spread the official messages in every possible way in the virtual world: talkbacks, forums, Facebook etc.. I have the material which is mostly in Hebrew. Although every citizen was asked to use the languages he knows. The attached file is in English. It would be nice if some of you can publish it on the net in order to unveil this coordinated campaign.

    Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs

  18. On a lighter note - a letter from today's Torygraph:

    Sir - Michael Deacon (Comment, June1) wishes to give his children names like Jeremy in the hope that a "nice middle class name" might get them "nice middle class jobs." This is all well and good as long as they do gain suitable employment. My first job was as assistant mechanic. I told my new workmates my name was Jerry, which seemed preferable to being beaten up.

    As I climbed the employment ladder, I forsook the sobriquet and returned to my given name. I have now become quite protective of it, and did not appreciate being called Jezzer by some young upstart.

    Jeremy Chataway
    Thorpe Abbot, Norfolk

  19. ............................tumbleweed..........….…...................................

  20. Oh fucks sake. Just checked in here and saw the reference to Wadya and so checked that out. Didn't realise my stupid (as I admitted before I even knew about wadya) remark had turned into some sort of international incident.

    Am pretty upset actually that have upset someone so much who is struggling with issues re PD etc. And also pretty fucking mad that MAM is still spouting shite and is just left to get on with it by so many!

    Anyway have put an apology on Wadya for what its worth - because heartfelt as it is I don't get the feeling Disordered will want to accept it.

    Pretty upset actually as have been a bit down myself these last few weeks. I will argue my corner like a bleeding banshee when I am right but did think when I woke up I was in the wrong and it was a stupid thing to have done and it is not a nice feeling really.

    Anyway thanks to Duke, Jay, Gandolfo and Alisdair for making me feel somewhat better. Am off to have a bloody beer - stomach be damned.

  21. Disordered even manages to take offence at non-existent comments, PCC, as i found out some months ago, so i wouldnt worry too much.

  22. PCC

    saw your comment...try not to take it too much to heart, IMO disordered is exagerating the point a bit too much and is actually quite offensive certainly it's "easier" to attack you than MAM because at least you give a sane thought out reply..... :)

    I think rednorth also wrote an excellent post

    enjoy your beer...you deserve it.......

  23. I just checked waddya, i really wouldnt worry, PCC, rednorth has pretty much put this one to bed.

  24. evenin all,, a rare alignment of serendipities give a brief window of opportunity to post,,and there is the topic ,,israel

    there is a very good post from rednorth on waddya regarding PCC,,an excellent defence
    i worked in a dairy in israel in 1973,,right on the syrian/israeli border and also fairly close to the lebanon/israel border,, my fellow workers
    were an israeli tank commander,,a colonel,,an ex general,,and a spook,, the first bombs of the 73 war fell about 2kms away from the milking sheds,,

    at that time there was only one bridge over the river jordan in that part of israel and it was about 400 metres from my house and the road leading to it ran directly past my front door
    (about 100 metres away)

    this set of circumstances gives me a slightly different perspective on israels military behaviour and the media face it is given in the west,,

    this different perspective has lead me to interpret the media cynically in regard to israel for the last 35 yrs,, its now fairly obvious to anyone that the reality never matches the story,,but there has been a long long time and a million stories and events that
    passed without question and now form part of the "commonly accepted" realities of israels

    the closest version to reality is pretty much
    everything giyus rambles on about,,even though it sounds like potboiler fiction,,he used to mention Rhodes Milner frequently,,and many of the subsequent machinations,,

    ps if you read "Economic Hitman" recently mentioned here abouts have a large box of kleenex handy,,it will make any normal person weep,,

    pps i have read all the ut threads i havent posted on,, saw some wonder where i was,,i am
    off line as part of a new direction in recovery from a very long illness and subsequent nihilistic depression,,and its going rather well,, (i have,,among other things,, chronic ME
    or similar,, which i know will resonate with others here,,)

    hope you all have a great meet up,,

    probably wont be back for a while,,but i will be reading,,

  25. 3p4
    good to hear you....take care of yourself and glad to hear things are going well

  26. PCC
    Never fear, you're always on the side of the "angels" (ha ha) I know more than is normal about PD/Mental Health.

    Looking forward to getting up to Sheffield !

    Good luck 3p4.

  27. 3p4

    The story of your recovery sounds like it would be interested in, I hope next time you are online you will fill in a bit of detail.

    Take care.

  28. PCC,

    What everyone else said, esp. Rednorth.

  29. All best wishes, 3p4 - hope to see you back again soon.

  30. Good to hear from you, 3p.

  31. PCC

    I can sort of understand why you regret having posted what you did (although I don't think you should).

    I just can't understand how anyone could have read that thread, and especially the bile spilt by MAM and come to the conclusion that you were the one who was disrespecting the mentally ill.

    Very strange conclusion to have come to.

  32. Hello 3p4! Best wishes to you, and thanks for Rednorth's comment, which I hadn't read.

    PCC - my personal opinion is that MaM is constantly on the wind-up.

  33. Best Wishes 3p4

    Sheff Can you repost the pub details please.

    They were on my computer which unfortunatey packed in and now I can't recover the information!

  34. MaM is a rogue AI, with a particularly nasty virus!

    3p4! Good to read U!

  35. All - I've heard from Montana and she has had a bereavement in the family, hence her absence.

    Best of love, Montana. xoxo

  36. Best wishes and hugs, Montana!!

  37. Evening everyone

    Just back from seeing True West the Sam Shepherd play on at the Crucible. Definitely worth seeing. MsC/Princess - if you get the chance go and see it.

    Right, last call for the Sheffield gig. We're meeting up between 3pm - 4pm at The rutland Arms on Brown Street, close to the train/bus stations.

    Details and map here

  38. I am jealous of all those going to Sheffield I am sorely in need of a good hedonistic night out (it is going to be wild isn't it?).

    Have fun everyone who is going.

    And condolences to Montana.

  39. Well, Jennifer, the last one was very tame. There was absolutely no drinking, dancing or spliffing. In fact we sat around discussing Puritan poetry.


  40. Love and hugs Montana. - so sorry to hear of your bereavement.

  41. @princess

    If i was any good at links i,d play you that Stevie
    Wonder classic 'Don,t you worry 'bout a thing'. X


    Really sorry to hear your news.Take care X

    @Hi 3P4!

  42. For no apparent reason here's Prince knocking out a good one. Hellyesaround.


  43. montana

    best wishes sorry to hear your news....

  44. here's a nice game.......Hurl berl......and if ya like sign the petition.....

  45. Oh, Montana, so sorry. Condolences.

    And Princess - your post on Waddya very good, and hagbard has responded in kind. I'd hazard a guess that one reason why some people addressed you and not MAM's original dreadful comments is, well - it's very hard to address MAM when it's on a subject close to you, or it can be - you end up having no impact on anything other than your own mood, which nosedives badly...(been there, done that). Whereas people know you're one of the good guys - and they know if they say 'oi' you'll actually listen (unlike ol' 'lock em up, nutters')...

    So, would guess that they were horribly offended by MAM, but know what he's like. Whereas...

    We look up to you, miss, that's the thing.

    Anyway. Hope it's sorted. And you do great work, particularly on MH / welfare, don't you dare stop.


    anyway. have finished work for the week. feel very silly, having done basically only three commutes, 12 hours in the office, and another 6 or so at home, but I'm knackered. Hope I get used to this 'job' thing again soon. At least they want me to write stuff rather than sell stuff. Am better at that...

  46. Princesschipchops:

    As someone who variously has been labelled a paedophile and a supporter of child lesbian abuse among other even more abusive things, on this thread and on CiF, you might, once you've recovered from the savaging at the hands of disordered and hagbard, consider the irony that as one of your longest standing supporters on CiF, I no longer have the right to post there, while Tory hacks like MAM continue to be welcomed with open arms.

  47. am listening to World Tonight and the Turkish MP being interviewed just nailed it for me:
    "we're not asking the United States to choose between two key allies - we're asking them to choose between right and wrong"
    ho hum. calling it a night, think.

    night all.

  48. Don't feel silly Philipa, when and if I get back to work it is something that really worries me.

    I haven't done a hard physical job since I was in my mid twenties (I sewed knickers and believe me that is harder work than it sounds) but even the sedentary jobs I have done more recently would leave me knackered at the moment.

    I am sure it won't last long and it is probably good for your moral fibre or something. ;)

  49. jennifer - bless you - it's why i was so glad to start with part-time (and the original suggestion of 21 hours in the office just terrified me! - it's come down now...I'm quite happy typing things up at home, it's just the...you know, 'other people' thing and not being able to have a nap if you need one that gets me) - I know I'm very lucky to be in that position. does seem the best way after a break - or the result would no doubt be another breakdown...

    think it will get easier - it was three consecutive afternoons and lots and lots of learning this week - from now on it's Monday / Wednesday / Friday, which I sold as 'consistent cover through the week' (also so I can have time off to recover in between!) which should be better...

    my moral fibre is unravelling a bit, but I can hoover tomorrow...

  50. (am kidding - don't actually have a hoover)

  51. Weekends off are a great part of working, if you are lucky enough to have a Mon-Fri job, bloody shift work ruins it.

    At the minute I am trying hard to keep my weekends different from my weeks, it wouldn't matter so much if I was working but as things are it gives my life some badly needed structure.

    Once I let things go and every day becomes alike I know I am in trouble, this doesn't bode well for my current habit of staying up all night and sleeping in the day.

  52. Hi All

    Montana--I join the rest in offering my condolences.

    Hi 3p4--Been a while. Hope all works out for you.Take good care. Interesting stuff on your experience in Israel as well.

    UTs in the UK: would you do us a favour and detain Harper for 5 years or so? Thanks.

  53. With regard to my last post: "test"..I recently reset my "pop up" blocker setting and my previous post was blocked.
    Anyway, did anyone see "Winthorpes" article on CIF: "Three Cheers For Failure"
    Lovely piece of writing and some great posts BTL.
    I was almost tempted to respond, but thought, naa fuck it...I'm still in "pre-mod" after...errr..well I've lost count but it must be about six or seven weeks.I was going to tell my cricketing anecdote. If anyone is interested I will tell it on here where people are much more deserving (or should that mean, more tolerant!)
    Anyway with regard to the "bunfight" in Sheffield on Saturday, what is the protocol for "introductions". Given that most of us are anonymous, will there be a designated corner of The Rutland Arms with a sign entitled; "The Usual Suspects"?
    No doubt my hosts in Sheffield have pushed the boat out to welcome one of it's own and myself and my entourage will be accommodated with the five star piffle we are used to!
    Deano30:My sister is, as we speak, on her hands and knees in her attic, trying to track down the archives I promissed to bring. I fear she is looking in the wrong place but rest assured if they don't turn up in time for Saturday I will make sure you get to see them at a future date.
    Regards to all and condolences to Montana.

  54. for chekhov and those coming to the Sheffield - there will be a copy of Graun prominently displayed - (or possibly the torygraph). We'll probably be the shifty looking ones.

    If its a nice day we'll be in the garden.

  55. SheffP/all

    I've been a bit distracted this week and not been able to contribute too much. I'm really sad that I won't be up to Sheffield on Sat. esp as there are some bloody ridiculously cheap fares on the go. I hope you all have a fab time and will look fwd to a meet up in the future ;)

    Weather promises to be stonking (29/30)and blazing sun - high UV so paleskins take yer sunblock!

    PCC - I didn't see the debate so can't comment. Don't have a crisis of conscience, you are brilliant ;)

    MAM? What is he/she anyway? Someone who has to repeatedly argue the ins and outs of the cats arsehole in order to prove the unprovable. That takes some doing and mental gymnastics... same types inhabit the I/P threads... the permutations of the ever more bizarre for defending the indefensible are like a high wire act with no high wire....

    Some folk just cannot make the leap.

  56. Morning all. Since Reilly is slacking off, I'll create a new post....