01 July 2010


Rebellions of the belly are the worst.
Francis Bacon


  1. Does anyone else wish all editors of the UK press have a collective wank over Anna Chapman thus saving thousands of bandwidth, time and rainforest?

  2. Morning all. Have been locked out of blogger for a few days due to some confusion over now having a work email address that screws up access. Mind, given the football, the heat, and various other factors, have not been feeling very commenty.

    This spy ring sounds ludicrous, to me. Then again, Secret Pilgrim having been on the Radio over the last few Sundays, I may be contrasting reality with far too high a standard.

    Princess - being able to paint is in no way necessary to be an artist, really. Try collecting 'found items' and tie them together with ribbon or something, that should work...

    God it's early.

  3. Apropos of nowt:

    I am one of those people who needs background noise when I'm alone and I've been alone for most of the month of June. My son went to Texas to stay with my sister & her husband for awhile.

    For background noise, I've had the television on -- frequently to a cable channel called HGTV -- 24 hours of home makeover and property shows. Watching the property shows -- there are four different ones where you are watching people go through a search for a new home -- has come to be as bad for my blood pressure as current affairs programmes.

    Two of the shows ("Property Virgins" and "My First Place") follow first-time home buyers -- usually 20-somethings, either couples or singles. There is something indescribably offensive to me about watching a pair of 27 year old brats walking through a perfectly nice house and turning their nose up at it because the kitchen counters aren't granite, the appliances aren't stainless steel, the master bath doesn't have a jetted tub, etc., etc.

    I want to scream at these people, "You're 27 fucking years old. You are buying your first fucking house. You should thank your privileged asses that you are in a position to buy goddamn house you twats and stop bitching about the fucking countertops!"

    There's another one that's equally offensive -- House Hunters International. In this one we follow someone as they search for a house in some other country. Sometimes, this is someone moving to a new place and looking for a primary dwelling, but usually it is someone looking for a holiday home. Again, these people turn their noses up at the most incredible things. They're looking for a house that they're only going to be in for a handful of weeks every year but the pool isn't an infinity pool, it's too far from the beach, the view isn't as spectacular as they thing it ought to be, etc., etc.

    Again, I end up screaming an obscenity-filled rant at the tv more often than not. Who the fuck are these people and how did they come to have such an overwhelming sense of entitlement? I despise them and I hope their shiny new holiday homes become infested with termites.

    Thanks. I feel better.

  4. Try collecting 'found items' and tie them together with ribbon or something, that should work...

    I shudder to think what sort of 'found items' one would come up with here in Cowpat Junction. I know your comment was directed at PCC, Philippa, but I think the world will thank me for not becoming a 'found objects' artist.

  5. Morning all!
    Interesting discussion yesterday on ‘policing by consent’. Surely the point is ‘government by consent’? Governments make laws, the police are the agents of that government and their job is to enforce them.

    The issue is an old one and was one of the issues raised in the ‘Putney Debates’ during the English CivilWar. The Putney Debates were a series of discussions between factions of the New Model Army and the Levellers concerning a new constitution for England. The debates were held at the Church of St Mary the Virgin, Putney, Surrey, in October and November 1647.

    The issue was the franchise and centred on the right of ordinary people to take part in the election of burgesses(MPs). The supporters of this right were called Levellers.

    A leading Leveller Colonel Thomas Rainsford famously said:

    “For really I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live, as the greatest he; and therefore truly, sir, I think it's clear, that every man that is to live under a government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that government; and I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under;”

    The issue we face today is clear, electing a government that in fact does not serve the interests of the majority of the people does not in fact provide government by consent. We have a situation where rich and powerful bankers have trashed the economy but the ordinary people are expected to pay for it. We cannot consent to this, it is unjust.

    We therefore face the breakdown of law and order. Government policy is responsible for this but we cannot just meekly put our heads down and ‘put up with it’.

    It poses the question that was not resolved at the very beginning of the ascendancy of capitalism in this country. In whose interests do governments rule?

    The answer is presently “in the interests of capital”. This has to change, it is up to every individual to decide what side they are on.

    Policing by consent is only possible if we have government by consent. When a society is divided into two camps – those who own all and those who do all the work (OK that’s a simplification but there’s truth in it) government by consent and hence policing by consent is impossible.

  6. Posted by craig on 10:09 AM 30/06/10 under Life

    Those Russian Spies

    I don't have any difficulty in believing that the FBI really have discovered a colony of Russian sleeper spies in the United States.

    Spying is an industry. Most of its activity is pointless, counter-productive and misdirected. Those employed in it have the strongest urge to strengthen and perpetuate their own industry. They are, worldwide, shielded from public scrutiny of their efficiency, and it is easy to persuade politicians to dole out more and more funds. Politicians are flattered to see papers marked "Top Secret" and their vanity is stoked by knowing about things happening that the public is not allowed to know about. It gives them a feeling of power.

    But the extraordinary question is why the FBI would, after years of surveillance, pull the plug exactly now? A spy ring you have under complete surveillance and whose communications you have decoded is the most valuable asset imaginable. Simply think what could be learnt of Russia's intentions towards the US from decoded instructions to these agents over the years. Think what "traitors" may have been revealed, with whom agents may have been asked to make contact. Why on earth would this priceless asset be thrown away?

    Of course, for the long term future of their industry, spies are heavily dependent on the perception of an "enemy". Perhaps there was concern that the perception of a viable enemy was slipping, so anti-Russian public and political sentiment needed to be stoked. Spies, of course, are not the only ones whose livelihood depends upon poor relations with an "enemy". Obama's pursuit of arms reduction negotiations with Medvedev is worrying the defence industry, Now what might cause domestic political problems for arms reduction negotiations with Russia?

    Craig Murray's site is worth a visit for many reasons, the proposed Inquiry on Torture particularly .

  7. Hi Paul and Habib. As you will no doubt recall, I was involved in Paul's self described 'car crash' here. To me, he has manned up and apologised. For others, apparently, there are loose details to be dealt with. May I suggest, as one that likes both, that you try a personal phone call to resolve issues and beefs? If not, ignorance could be bliss and revenge too. Sort it or I shall be taking names.

    Hi Leni--'Oman Ra'--whats it about? Usually willing to explore new (to me ) authors, but wish to know subject matter.

  8. morning Duke - agree about Anna Chapman. Middle aged men and a pretty face eh!

    Sad really :)

    Montana - as someone who is presently flat hunting I am with you totally on house hunting shows- we have them too! They clutter up the schedules like blight!

    They have had an effect even on my daughter who is soooooo picky about what she thinks is good enough for me to live in!

    It looks like it was 'let' (probably was once, the area I want to live in was mostly student flats in the 60's. Victorian housing became popular again in the 90's and its been on the up ever since!)

    What I want is somewhere nearer to my friends and in the ward (district of city) where I am known in the local Labour Party, a ward where you can still find some socialists!).

    But for her it has to reach these rediculous levels of perfection and is therefore likely to cost more than I can afford! She is also obsessed with the idea of a home as an 'investment'- your only home can't be you have live somewhere so what use is its market value?

    Rant over advise against watching thse shows - really - you'll end up on blood pressure tablets!

    Found objects - hmm you should see what people 'drop' from their cars onto the pavement round here sometimes! Euuuuuuuuuuuch!

  9. Argh, comment seems to have vanished. Bleah.

    Has it?

  10. And it's done it again, grrrrrrrrrrr.

    Am clearly not up to much this morning, even laptop is editing me.

    and stupidly just picked up phone when prof rang, now have french lesson. don't want french lesson. grrrrrrrrrrrrr.........

  11. Montana,

    the most offensive programme I've ever watched is similar to the one you're discussing.

    In the UK, it was called 'location, location, location' presented by two of the smuggest arseholes ever seen on the small screen. They even trump Piers Morgan.

    Kirsty Allsopp, daughter of Baron Allsopp and advisor to the Conservative Party and failed property consultant Phil Spencer who always seemed to dress in a high polo neck making him look uncannily like a bell end.

    The entire show consisted of them taking round achingly conceited bourgeois couples (ususally called Tabitha and Sebastian) as they wished to get out of the 'rat race' by buying a property in the New Forest or the lake district but keep a 'crash pad' in central London.

    Both had been in vampiric jobs in the city, but had now gone 'new age' wanting to run a B&B whilst pricing the locals out of the market. The 'crash pad' was there ostensibly for the husband's work but you just knew he was using it to bang his secretary.

    Never satisfied, the 26 bedroom New Forest/Lake pile they look around normally had something wrong,like a nail protruding out of the champagne cellar or the Butler's quarters having 26 inches too little room for the games rooms/swimming pool they must have.

    It was also soundtracked by Islington lite dinner party minimal dance- cinematic orchestra/groove armada, you know Dido would have been on the soundtrack if they could have afforded the licensing.

    Everything about it offended. It was like a two minute hate for me every time it came on. The most appalling, smug, bourgeois wanker programme ever to beamed on TV.

    I would rather sit through an hour of a Conservative Party conference than ever watch that pile of hubristic, smug property crap ever again.

    Great to get that off my chest. Very cathartic. Thanks for listening.

  12. frog2--Howdy. Certainly agree that spying is an industry, but propogated by the arms dealers and multinationals through elected officials. Trying to justify their existence by finding the odd nugget of intelligence that makes news and generates nationalism.That's one of the major factors to me, follow the money to your senator, MP and such. Eisenhower warned us about the military/industrial complex many years ago. Not a great president, but he was right about this and the problem is now compounded and entrenched.

  13. @ Montana. This Old House is/was less offensive (don't know if it's still running). Maybe a little too earnest,mind, hence the piss-taking via Home Improvement. The kind of property porn shows that you describe are slightly different,I'd say, and have been an annoying mainstay of UK TV for way too long.

  14. Third time lucky, and in bullet point form, for Montana:

    - things that have fallen off a passing car
    - jettisoned industrial rubbish
    - replace ribbon with spot-welding
    - title "a feminist sculptural response to the collapse of US manufacturing"
    - job done.

  15. Grand Designs had some nice moments with people with no money trying to do wonderful things (the charcoal burner's house was a favourite) but it was usually just people with no visible job chucking tenners into a hole in the ground.

    I used to watch praying for a landslip or a local authority investigation or something.

  16. Even with a decent salary in London I could only afford a shoebox. When I found one with a pocket handkerchief garden I thought all my birthdays had come at once. Sod work surfaces. Place was made out of cardboard and mdf, I think, but it was lovely.

    Saying your budget is "only £600k" and then listening to Kirsty sigh that "you're not going to get anything round here for under £800k" and then they'd somehow find the extra £400k they ended up spending....I mean, how do you 'find' that kind of extra money? I mortgaged myself up to the hilt to find 225...


  17. Interesting article in today's Indie on cops v. people taking photographs. A ludicrous and also frightening example of how the police service can get out of control through stupidity , and how the UK (and france too) can begin very quickly to resemble communist Yugoslavia when I hitchhiked near naval bases in 1967.People taking innocent photos then were obviously spies, in London they are 'potential' Terrorists. Or if there are kids around, definitely paedophiles.

    "A personal viewpoint: 'I was reminded why I left the police' "
    I spent 27 years as a PC in the Met, but it was during a trip to my old police station with a friend late last year that I was starkly reminded why I eventually decided to leave. (He's in france now...)

    It's the kind of station that looks like something out of Dixon of Dock Green, it has a lovely little blue police light outside the entrance and I asked Will whether he'd take a picture of me standing underneath it. Within seconds we found ourselves approached by two PCSOs who told us that we were not allowed to take photographs of police stations.

    Very strange that ACPO is pushing NOW for this obvious improvement in law enforcement/police discretion. I'd have thought that was the government's job, so why didn't NuLab or ACPO say this before ?

    ( Bit of a rhetorical question that... answers obvious ?

  18. PhilippaB--Your brain seems well engaged now. (-:

    Give us your prognostications. Mine for the final four: Brazil, Ghana---Germany,Spain. I really want Ghana, ( see this Montana?) fast and athletic style pleasing on the footie eye.

  19. Anyone seen this psueds corner crap from Roddy Doyle explaining why he put 10 quid on England to win the world cup?

    "So, my walk to the bookies wasn't my post-post-colonial moment. It wasn't even post-colonial. I'm still not-English. I'm the mild colonial boy, in a ditch, fighting for Ireland; I'm starving to death because the spud crop has failed – the grass juice is on my chin. Granted, the grass is drenched in extra-virgin olive oil and not many starving peasants drive Volvo estates, but it's the state of mind that counts."

    Scherfig, any thoughts?


    Saying your budget is "only £600k" and then listening to Kirsty sigh that "you're not going to get anything round here for under £800k" and then they'd somehow find the extra £400k they ended up spending....I mean, how do you 'find' that kind of extra money? I mortgaged myself up to the hilt to find 225...


    I just have thinking about it again.

  20. boudican - am v cross will be at work friday pm so won't be able to watch netherlands v brazil. but there's a pool party on saturday, will be cheering on the germans (this may get me thrown in)...

  21. Phillipa - precisely! I'm trying to pay off my mortgage by selling! Will struggle to pay £155K!

    Progs like that just rub your nose in it don't they?

    I avoid - all property programs and anything with the word 'celebrity' in the title!

    Thats another topic that makes me throw up!

  22. annetan - it's porn, basically. aspiration-porn. that, and the dinner party shows, and the fashion / makeover shows - all "ooh, look where you could be", in an attempt to distract people from where they actually are...

    What's that song in 1984?

    It was only a summer's day...

    Machine-made 'cultural' output to keep the proles down.

  23. right - bleah - french lesson...

  24. Morning me Hearties ;0)

    Pugwash here!

    Like PhilippaB - been feeling a bit uncommnety too. Couldn't gather my thoughts, been feeling a bit thick in the head the last few days. trying to get my Mojo back in working order.

    Going to do some catching up....


  25. ""So, my walk to the bookies wasn't my post-post-colonial moment. It wasn't even post-colonial. I'm still not-English. I'm the mild colonial boy, in a ditch, fighting for Ireland; I'm starving to death because the spud crop has failed – the grass juice is on my chin. Granted, the grass is drenched in extra-virgin olive oil and not many starving peasants drive Volvo estates, but it's the state of mind that counts."

    Jesus wept... what a colossal twat.

  26. PhilippaB--Ah, the constricts of employment, a somewhat necessary state. But, but you did not make any choices to win. Let's have em.

  27. Duke, what an arse. Punt with your brain, not emotion, not twisted sentiment, not some kind of reverse pseudo-socio-political guilt shtick. Punters like him are why bookies satchels are so full.By the way, MF's ante-post punt on argentina looking a wise choice: much depends on saturday,mind.If they do win, Diego's antics will be highly amusing, but did hear on the radio (R5), from an Argentinian expert (i.e. not a typical uninformed talking head) that actually for man-management, Diego has been the best boss at the tourney: every day he drops by the room of each and every squad member,not to address them but to listen.Plus being such an iconic figure they love him.
    By the way, you'd think that the BBC having the estimable Tim Vickery, who does know about sth american football, and whose slot on Up All Night is good, would make more use of him for the tourney, but no, it's half-wits like Shearer instead ("I don't know much anything about these teams"-well, WTF are you doing taking money to commentate on them for: do some bleeding homework for your loot).

  28. Late here, not there, night all.

  29. Boudican - 'Howdy'? You are the CIA mole in this honey-pot :)
    annetan42 - a modest house in a village for about half of £155K...empty roads...same climate.For £100K a lot of house and an acre or two. Rates - bugger all. And no, I'm not an estate agent.

    I escape temptation to watch rubbish. No TV.

  30. JayR:

    Have responded to your reply on the Africa thread.... who wrote that terrible thing you've just quoted?

  31. Boudican:

    I know you've toddled off to the land of nod, but I'm rooting for Ghana too ;-)and Spain too....

  32. @La Ritournelle:

    I'm not rooting for anyone now. I've got a bad case of sour grapes.

    Unlike my good mate, who's hoping that "football will be the winner". He truly is the home of the football cliche, though.

  33. Well, Swifty, football has won me as a watcher (for one and a half matches - better to watch things you're not interested in with people you like than being alone wallowing in heartbreak and despair. Damn, I'm in a morbid mood today, again ...), so your good mate may cheer.

  34. Duke/Montana/annetan

    Those property programmes are so deeply offensive, I don't know where to begin. However, I caught a question time a few months back and Kirsty Alsopp was on the panel - forever after watching her in action I've referred to her on CiF as "that Dimbo" - she really is thick as two short planks and rabidly right wing....

  35. LOL, cheer up elementary, could be worse.

  36. Swifty:

    "I've got a bad case of sour grapes"

    I'm sorry to hear that ;-( (lol)

    "Unlike my good mate, who's hoping that "football will be the winner". He truly is the home of the football cliche, though"

    yeah, dream on sunshine!

  37. @La Ritournelle:

    Can't even crow about the cricket either, which usually cheers me up no end. We may have won the series but I was hoping for the whitewash - no such luck, we were piss poor yesterday on a flat track at the Oval. 78 runs short of the target is a bit of a pasting, unfortunately.

    "Well played Australia" (he said through gritted teeth while choking on bile).

  38. Thanks for the kind words, Swifty. Far more uplifting than long-winded explanations about how "crises will make you grow as a person, so you can see your crisis more as a chance, and, you know, I'm speaking from my own vast experience here ..."

    It's the simple, unintelligent, lacking in insight gestures and words that help me getting over my sadness, I guess.

  39. Morning.

    Sore head


    Would like Ghana to win cos it's Ghana, but would like Spain to win to make my two Spanish footy-mad friends in London really happy :o)

  40. There is this guy, Boateng, seems like a decent chap. I hope his team wins ...

  41. @elementary:

    ...simple, unintelligent, lacking in insight...

    Yep, that's me!

  42. Mornin' all.

    Sour grapes from me too, but it was good to see Ronaldo getting ignored when diving and even better to see him on the losing team in a big match... again.

    Alisdair Cameron - good call on Tim Vickery, very knowledgeable fellow he is. I'm sure Shearer is a nice fellow, but he is a long way from interesting. The same goes for Gary Line Acre (copyright Mick Channon, circa 1986.)

    To see Argentina win would be fine, to see Maradona win would be an almighty shame.

  43. @heyhabib:

    "The boy Line Acre", to give him his full title.

    I met Mick Channon at a horseracing awards dinner last year, very funny bloke, very knowledgeable about the gee gees.

  44. This comment has been removed by the author.

  45. Swifty:

    My association with cricket extends to mad, rule-less games on Priddy Green in the 70's and cycling past the Oval on a regular basis!

    Growing up in Zummerset where people at school were cricket-mad drove me to distraction but I always loved to hear it on the radio.... soothing to say the least.

    Sorry that England didn't give the Aussies a good pasting ;-(

  46. Duke, I can only echo Jay's comment - Jesus wept... what a colossal twat. Anyone who reckoned England ever had a chance is obviously deluded, anyway.

    I've still got a few bets riding on Brazil, top-scorer and so on and I'm currently about £200 up through a series of small bets on group forecasts, combinations on matches etc. I think the best (and most fun) way to bet on the WC is to take it one day/group a time and then in the knock-outs go for doubles and correct scores.

    Due to intense post-colonial feelings and a sense of oppression I did a double on Argentina/Germany wins and netted £50. The fact that I could see that Germany were ten times the team England are had no effect on my bet. It was not an economic investment, it was purely emotional, grounded in hatred and racism :0)

    btw, did you see 'Arry Redkknapps' advice at half-time in the Germany game - "give it 10/15 minutes and then bring Crouchie on - stick the big man up there, and get some balls in the box.". Obviously when the FA come to their senses and stop hiring foreign mercenaries like Eriksson and Capello, and hire an English manager, then a bright new dawn of beautiful total football is just round the corner. 2014, anyone?

    PS, Boudican - I can see a Germany-Brazil final.

  47. Deano

    Hope you are ok. So very sad.

    Much love

    J x

  48. Deano - My deepest sympathies

    Take care

    Anne x

  49. Deano that is so sad, losing a pet is just an awful thing, I hope you look after yourself and you can find a bit of peace. x

  50. Deepest sympathies and much love and huggings from me, too, deano.

  51. Deano

    how very very sad for you I really am so sorry, it must be so painful, you did what was best for your dear miss diesel..X

  52. Hang on in there, Deano, lad. Love to you.

  53. That's tough, Deano. Take care.

  54. Deano,

    I'm so, so sorry. Losing our doggie friends is like losing a brother or sister. Feel like crying for you. Take care of yourself. xx

  55. Laughing like a drain at the comments from MW and His Grace about property programmes. I only ever really watch TV these days to have a good rail, and second to Question Time the property programmes are my favourite. I can just about stomach Grand Designs, because I'm interested in architecture and guff like that, but LLL makes me spit venom for much the same reasons listed above.

    Duke, you could not be more astute about the banging the secretary thing. There's no point working at a City law-firm if you can't sustain a plush fuckpad in the Barbican. Move the ball and chain out to Dorset with an Aga and one can be up to the apricots in an impressionable PA Monday through Thursday with complete impunity. Ding Dong!

  56. Deano, sorry about your loss. Don't know what I'd do without my pooch :(

  57. Hey Deano,

    all the best mate.

    James Dixon,

    with the Netherlands-Brazil game tomorrow here's Holland v Brazil 1974

    I think it has to be up there with the greatest world cup games of all time. Two great goals, punches flying, red cards, players sticking the fingers up at the fans, Cruyff refereeing the game in his imperious manner and look out for the most outrageous rugby tackle on Cruyff as he is clean through at 2m 45s. Which warrants a yellow card.

    Wonderful stuff.

  58. Deano, am so sorry. You did the best thing for her, hope you are OK...

  59. speedkermit,

    Duke, you could not be more astute about the banging the secretary thing. There's no point working at a City law-firm if you can't sustain a plush fuckpad in the Barbican. Move the ball and chain out to Dorset with an Aga and one can be up to the apricots in an impressionable PA Monday through Thursday with complete impunity. Ding Dong!

    I actually think that was the requirements given to Phil & Kirsty the last time I watched it.

  60. Sorry to hear that, Deano, hope you're doing ok.

  61. Commiserations, Deano.

    @ Duke. That game is/was a gem. How Brazil didn't have half a dozen sent off is a mystery to those familiar only with today's style of referee. The off-the-ball running and back-up, always looking to go forwards by the Dutch was something special.

  62. Well, I had to Google Kirstie Allsopp -- one of the more interesting/less annoying HGTV programmes is one that's produced in Canada called "The Unsellables", hosted by one Sofie Allsopp. Sisters, as most of the rest of you would probably know. Huh. Sofie's either not as odious as her sister or she does a better job of hiding it? She mucks in & paints, wields a hammer, etc. and generally comes across as pleasant human being.

    The ones that I enjoy are the make-over ones. I like to kid myself that I'm gaining valuable pointers for the day when I win the Powerball jackpot and buy a house of my own. Of course, if I win Powerball, I'll have enough dosh to hire a designer, so why do I need design tips? Then again, there are only so many chocolate and turquoise or chocolate and lime green rooms one can look at before they all start becoming samey.

    And now, for something completely different:

    Some of you may remember me mentioning the other day that, officially, there are six unemployed people for every available job in the US. That's officially unemployed per job, irrespective of the skill-level required, so actual unemployment is worse than that. Well, according to Sharron Angle, Republican candidate for the US Senate from Nevada, the real problem with unemployment in the US is that America's unemployed are spoiled.

  63. my christ, montana...

    "Adding comments has been disabled for this video."

    clearly this did not begin well...

  64. I don't know Philippa if she peddled that line on Cif she would get 600 comments agreeing with her.

  65. jen - good point. then we'd have to armour up princessCC and send her off on her charger...

  66. Montana- that woman is odious.


    I'm too young to remember the Dutch of the 1970's but as I said underneath my Dutch Politics article, they were so effortlessly cool.

    Hank made reference to Cruyff and the Dutch of the 1970's the other day. In those days with the microscopic amount of media compared to now, the way the Dutch side blazed onto the scene would have made a deep impression on any football supporting lad in the UK.

    I don't know what it is about modern football, there's just something missing and I can't put my finger on it. it's technically excellent, the players are in the prime of physical health but....I don't know, give me the fag smokers, the dribblers, the boozers, the characters.

    There's a great anecdote by Gordon Strachan about the post match drugs test after Scotland were gubbed 4-1 by Brazil (Dave Narey's toe poke) in the 1982 World Cup.

    Strachan said he and Socrates were chosen for random testing. It was so hot they couldn't pee. Socrates ordered and then drank 20 bottles of San Miguel to work up a sample. Legend.

    All deeply regressive I know, but football had to use a cheesy term- soul and character.

  67. In that same interview, she says that she doesn't think abortion should be legal under any circumstance. The interviewer asks her if that applies even in the case of a 13 year old who's been raped by her own father. Mrs. Angle's ever-so-Christian response is, "I am a Christian and I believe that God has a plan for everyone."

  68. @Alisdair/13thDuke:

    Johan Cruyff was my footballing here bar none in the early 70s. Most of my contemporaries at primary school too, as I recall - everyone wanted to "be" him in the playground kickabouts.

    And Socrates "summed up the whole philosophy of Brazilian football", according to Motty, no?

  69. Swifty,

    And Socrates "summed up the whole philosophy of Brazilian football", according to Motty, no?

    Well, Socrates smoked 40 a day all through his career (as did Cruyff) and as testified by Strachan, could knock them back. So you could say that he summed up the whole philosophy of Scottish Football.

    Until you realise he could play football.

    Apparently Cruyff's nickname was "Pythagoras in boots" due to the unbelievable angles he could contort himself and the angular through balls he consistently played.

    Neeskens and van Hanegem, the central midfield pairing of Holland 74 were nicknamed 'the Berlin Wall' as it was said to be just as difficult to get through them as it was the Wall.

    Fact fans...

  70. I wonder how much Cruyff and Socrates would be worth today and if their managers would make them stop the smoking?

  71. Duke

    ''I don't know what it is about modern football, there's just something missing and I can't put my finger on it.''

    Raw honest to goodness passion that is connected to the heart and soul of the game.That,s what,s missing IMHO.Players who are increasingly disconnected from the local
    communities of the teams they play for.Increasing numbers of Premier League players and managers who aren,t from this country.And a national squad which whilst 100% British is made up of players who are commodities and who lack cohesion as a force.
    And i suspect this is replicated in various degrees all over the world.Football has become part of the global capitalist economy with all that entails.It,s losing/lost its soul.

  72. deano

    Really sorry about the loss of your pet.Take it easy man.

  73. jen - marina hyde wrote a piece about coming across the slovenian team walking on the beach, looking on the sunset, having a paddle...and having a smoke...

    mind you, if they lost 1-0 to our shower, maybe that's been their impetus to quit...

  74. I presume the Socrates discussed here is not the guy who drank the hemlock in Greece some centuries BC?

    Although I'm pretty sure that if you read Platon carefully and with the right mindset, you will find that Socrates summed up the whole philosophy of Brazilian football, too ...

  75. @13thDuke:

    Socrates is a doctor as well. Which he apparently studied for, and got the degree for, while playing professional football.

    Not even my rugby hero (from a previous era) JPR Williams could top that.

    BTW, here's Motty on Socrates - 0:58 in.

  76. Deano

    My love to you at this very sad time,

  77. World cup heroes when growing up.. Arie Haan and (sorry, duke) Johnny Rep.

  78. Blimey, just noticed that Lahm is having a pop at the Argentinians. That's really not like him.

    "The South Americans are temperamental. We know that and we will see how they will deal this time with a defeat."

    Germany losing, then? Personally, I'm torn between liking either of the teams, but I slightly favour Germany, because Maradona is not their manager.

  79. @heyhabib:

    Oh I dunno, I reckon the world of football needs more zany characters like Maradona.

  80. @Swift

    Yeah, if only "White line? Where?" Maradona had got together with "Three pints down his shirt" Gazza...

  81. zany is fine, Swifty, but a sociopath, worshipped by millions? That's troubling.

  82. @heyhabib:

    OK mate, I'll rephrase:

    I reckon the world of football needs more sociopaths worshipped by millions, like Maradona.

    Personally, I'm up to here with the dull technocrats who run football teams these days.

  83. Maradona sociopath? come on guys I wouldn't class him as a sociopath... bit of a loose cannon but surely one of the greatest footballers...

  84. Has everyone been onto the new government site to tell Nick Clegg what laws they want abolished?

    I bet there are some real Speakyourbranes candidates on there.

  85. Deano: may I add my condolences for your sad loss.

  86. Sorry about your hound Deano. My dog at my mother's is almost 16 years old and she will have to go soon too. There is no point prolonging the little creature's pain just for a few moths more of life.

    Duke I posted last night on here, asking about crime in Glasgow, organised crime specifically. The Glasgow Herald did a great piece about crime and front companies for money laundering in the city. I see plenty of top end Range Rovers incongruosuly in rather poor areas....

  87. Apropos little, but on the subject of football managers, was there ever a better match between side and manager than when Wolfgang Wolf managed Wolfsburg. Only if Johnnie Johnson managed St. Johnstone could he be equalled.

  88. Deano, very sorry to hear about Miss Diesel. You have given her a good life.

  89. I have received a letter from our esteemed Prime Minister & Deputy Prime Minister today:

    "First of all we want to thank you. Whether your job is in nursing in a hospital, working in a government department, teaching our children or one of the other key roles in the public sector, you keep our country running. People who work in the public sector don't get enough credit for what they do, so thank you.

    As well as our thanks, we want to give you more trust & responsibility. For years you have been undermined by targets and rules from on high. Bit by bit we're going to end that culture. We'll set you free to use your professionalism, commitment and good ideas to make life better for everybody. "

    They then go on to invite me to put my views on where spending cuts, sorry 'savings', should be made, via a Spending Challenge website:

    "Don't hold back. Be innovative, be radical, challenge the way things are done ... ...
    So please, play your part. Let us now your ideas. We're all in this together - and we'll get through this together to better days ahead."

    Do you think a straight 'fuck off' would be an appropriate suggestion?

  90. Leni: I'll get back to you later about your question las night/this morning. Had to draw the line at getting the dictionary out at 3 o'clock in the morning to find out what "extemporize" means!
    I'm sure you are well aware it's what we in the trade call "winging it"!
    Anyway I'll extemporize further later when I've had time to re-read the question.

  91. P'raps you could suggest a 99.9% tax on the net worth and earnings of all government ministers so they can really feel what it's like to be in it up to the neck?

  92. Good idea, thauma.

    And then there's the tax exiles.

  93. Deano,

    My condolences, I myself am dreading the day I come home to find my housemate's 18 year old cat has keeled over, and the subsequent phone call I'll have to make....(housemate works away a lot, and sod's law dictates....)


    Government ministers to be paid the same wage as the lowest earners in their sector? (Health minister to be on a (I'm guessing) hospital cleaner's wage for example.....)

  94. Hi Napoleon,

    sorry about that, I just picked up on your post from last night.

    Glasgow has a long tradition of out and proud organised crime. I daresay if Edwin still posted here he would be able to tell you more.

    I know of Walter Norval and Arthur Thompson who were the 'high heid yins' in the Glasgow underworld from the 50's until the 80's.

    Arthur Thompson was a delightful chap who started out money lending and crucified victims who didn't pay up. He oversaw an extraordinary amount of organized crime in Glasgow spanning 40 years.

    Walter Norval gave a nauseating interview to the the Daily Record with the usual Kray style excuses- "we looked out for the ordinary punter, it was only ever between gangs, I never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it, it was all innocent til junkies got involved" bullshit.


    there's truth in what you say, Premiership footballers are now 'virtual reality' they almost don't exist (if you know what I mean), untouchable and completely detached from the local community/town/city they represent.

    But if there's one thing that would improve football tenfold it's (as Swifty points out) lots more Maradonas.

  95. Deano

    My deepest condolences and best wishes!!

  96. Alisdair,

    Wolfgang Wolf of Wolfsburg can't be bettered. For players I always liked Harry Haddock, Barney Battles (sr and jr), Barrie Wardrobe and the splendidly monikered Reginald de Courtenay Welch who played for England v Scotland in the world's first international.

  97. ##monkeyfish##

    If you're reading. What do you think of the Marxism 2010 event? Academic radical posturing or building block?

    As soon as I saw the letters SWP, alarm bells started ringing.

    I'd be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Or anyone else's.

  98. Duke

    I think we could see more of the same tomorrow.

    (Especially now Mr Cruyff's been stirring things up a wee bit!!)

    Should be a good game though, although I suspect Brazil will probably nick it, perhaps in extra time.

    We'll see though.

    RE Socrates

    He's a legend.

    He's also quite witty, and occasionally pops up as a guest on football shows here, but unfortunately, not as often as he could do, on account of him ripping the piss out of everyone else there.

    Re Maradona

    I'm with Habib on this one. The guy, character or not, has, for me, done more than enough to be banned from the game for life....

  99. Aw, Duke, you got me a-googling and so I've just found this cracking list/site.

  100. @James:

    ...The guy, character or not, has, for me, done more than enough to be banned from the game for life....

    Was it his admiration for Hugo Chavez wot swung it for you? Or his tattoos of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara? Or perhaps his description of GW Bush as "human garbage"? Or maybe even his warm message (and signed shirt!) for the government of Iran?

    Only joking, but more power to his tubby little elbow, in my book. Dodgy political views to one side, he's his own man, all too rare in football these days.

  101. afternoon compadres


    So sorry to hear Ms Diesel has met her end...its a real facer when they go. chin up old lad...

    What about this folks - delivered to my inbox at work this morning. As you know we are having to reapply for our jobs and below is a list of the words we are supposed to use. Its a long list so please feel free to scroll past.

    It is apparently:

    Positive and Powerful Language

    Use clear and positive language when completing your application form; the following may provide inspiration when thinking about your skills, knowledge, abilities, qualities and achievements. Give your application the ‘wow factor’.

    • Ability
    • Accurate
    • Achieving
    • Adapting
    • Administering
    • Advising
    • Analysing
    • Appraising
    • Appropriate
    • Approving
    • Arranging
    • Assessing
    • Avoiding
    • Awareness
    • Building
    • Challenging
    • Clients
    • Coaching
    • Communicating
    • Completing
    • Conducting
    • Consolidating
    • Constructive
    • Convincing
    • Co-ordinating
    • Creating
    • Customers
    • Deadlines
    • Deciding
    • Delegating
    • Delivering
    • Demonstrating
    • Designing
    • Developing
    • Documenting
    • Enabling • Ensuring
    • Establishing
    • Evaluating
    • Exceeding
    • Experienced
    • Flexibility
    • Forecasting
    • Gaining
    • Goals
    • Guiding
    • Impact
    • Implementing
    • Improving
    • Increasing
    • Independently
    • Influencing
    • Initiating
    • Initiative
    • Interpreting
    • Introducing
    • Investigating
    • Judgement
    • Leading
    • Liaising
    • Maintaining
    • Managing
    • Modernising
    • Monitoring
    • Motivating
    • Negotiating
    • Objectives
    • Operating
    • Organising
    • Persuading
    • Planning
    • Preparing • Preventing
    • Professional
    • Promoted
    • Promoting
    • Providing
    • Proving
    • Quality
    • Redesigning
    • Reducing
    • Reorganising
    • Representing
    • Resolving
    • Results
    • Reviewing
    • Revising
    • Saving
    • Scheduling
    • Securing
    • Significant
    • Solving
    • Strategic
    • Successful
    • Supporting
    • Teambuilding
    • Team working
    • Testing
    • Versatile

    I challenge anyone to write anything you'd have the remotest desire to read with those words.

  102. In French, my favourite football names are Baresi (pronounced like fishnet stockings in French), and Jamaican goalkeeper Barrett (pronounced like a stick of blow). That year, Jamaica were playing in Group H (same pronunciation as hash).

  103. Swifty

    "Dodgy political views to one side, he's his own man, all too rare in football these days".

    Well, I'd probably argue the exact opposite, in that football is full of people who 'are their own men', and that's part of the problem, in my opinion.
    I'd argue that Maradona had a lot to do with that development, and not in a good way.

  104. Sheff

    They missed out facilitating.

    No self-respecting management speak spiel omits this bad-boy!!

  105. Marxism 2010?

    Nave you seen the thread on Cif? two contributions stand out -

    Zarathustra said:
    Capitalism does not work because of the degree of Socialism inherent within it. Too much State intervention, regulations and Central Banks (cartels) and fiat currency leads to crisis.

    There are none so blind.... You couldn't make that up could you?

    Then there is the Shermanator who said:-
    When I eyeballed the obituaries for these "Marxist intellectuals" it appears that all of them were "philosophers," "scholars," "intellectuals," "organizers" etc....

    None of them appeared to have had any experience in the labor world that they claimed to know so much about. In fact, none of them appeared to have had any real jobs - except for some stints in academia.

    None of them appeared to have had any experience in the labor world that they claimed to know so much about. In fact, none of them appeared to have had any real jobs - except for some stints in academia.

    Which for the SWP is fair comment frankly they do not have credible working class support.

    But then he says:
    Perhaps if some of them had gotten their hands dirty performing real work they would not have been such fervent Marxists.

    On the contrary it might make them better Marxists. As it is 'Armchair' Marxists is the term I would use.

  106. deano--So sorry for your loss of Miss Diesel. A difficult decision but one which must eventually be made from love. My sympathies to you.

  107. By avoiding needless reorganising, I was maintaining professional integrity, but this was taken as challenging. My proving,by results and by documenting, that managerialism has nothing to do with judgement, ability or plain administering, but everything to do with dogma and reducing the workforce's ability to be successful is what is leading my having to reapply for my post.

  108. James
    They missed out facilitating.

    So they did!! What got me was the phrase "give your application the 'wow' factor>" Utterly soul shrivelling!

    We had a call to arms from the union today - the meeting was so big we had to hold it outside. It was rather good being on the street whilst a doughty scouser spoke about the workers being shafted. Quite took me back.

    There will be industrial action - but whether we can get the TUC onside and get a general strike (quite a popular idea) remains an open question. But it's early days yet and people are only just beginning to realise how bad things are going to get.

  109. Alisdair,

    I thought Ars Bandeet was an urban legend, but apparently not! Lopez Ufarte also made me and my mates giggle uncontrollably when we were 10.


    I purposely haven't looked at that thread, I read the article though. I daresay Stalin, 30m dead, Capitalism is best etc etc etc all get a mention.


    Christ almighty, that is beyond parody. Is there no way you and your colleagues can inscribe those words on metal spikes and stuff it up their meaningless managerialist arseholes?

  110. MsChin:

    Re; Your questionnaire

    "Do you think a straight 'fuck off' would be an appropriate suggestion?"

    That would be my first reaction however, I would tie them in knots personally with ludicrous suggestions.


    sorry I didn't reply on the Werweru thread, I was so fucked off with that racist heathen Waltz, the clever dicky, right-wing facist Lesbian from Hell, I couldn't get back. Apols.


    "As you know we are having to reapply for our jobs and below is a list of the words we are supposed to use"

    But whatever you do, don't use your imagination! Zizek has a really good little passage in First as Tragedy - about Starbucks' staff being 'encouraged' to be 'individual' - has the same smell of utter, inane bullshit to me, patronising crap.

  111. Yeah, the common theme in these discussion seems to be...

    Communist China (or other similar example) doesn't count as a success because it hasn't ever been truly communist

    but, also

    Capitalism hasn't failed, because the banks/West/whatever hasn't ever been able to be truly capitalist.


  112. Duke

    Dunno..there's speakers I'd like to hear, especially Zizek but overall like the man himself the whole thing strikes me as a bit of a curate's egg. There does appear to be a strain in contemporary self-described marxists for dramatic gestures and outrageous statement seemingly for their own sake. Zizek's a case in point, every time I read the guy I'm hugely impressed, find myself nodding in agreement and then literally dumbstruck by a piece of blatant post-modern gibberish which seems to have been chucked in for contrarian or theatrical purposes. Maybe they feel the odd stunt is necessary to get any media attention.

    The same's true of Tariq Ali, Tony Benn, Michael Rosen..all fine up to a point but none of whom ever seem principally focussed on economic fundamentals: living wages, full employment. Too many supposed Marxists seem to have accepted the ineluctable dominance of global capital and are looking for accomodationist positions. They'll still bang on about false consciousness and the appropriation of the media and civil society by corporate interests but seem happy enough to carve themselves a small 'counter-cultural' niche from which to effectively shout "I told you so"...in doing so, they cease to carry any radical clout. For too many, Marxism has simply become a minority interest genre within the media..no ambition, no responsibility just a smallish sect which provides a special interest perspective for a smallish audience.

    That said, many of them are well worth a listen..especially the ones who cite Marx himself-it's quite staggering how many never do. I still think his analysis of capitalism is the best out there; the only one out there in truth. Strip away the historicism, the Leninism and the backstory and there is still a powerful analytical tool in Marx.

  113. This comment has been removed by the author.

  114. Alisdair

    Nice try!

    Yr Grace

    Unfortunately 'arsehole', 'meaningless' and 'metal spike' aren't on the list, but I'm very tempted to try and work them in, together with 'fuck you' and as many other vulgar expletives I can think of.

  115. SheffP:

    Just watched that - what a great link!

    Thanks ;)

  116. (Liked the animation Sheff, cheers!)

  117. especially the ones who cite Marx himself-it's quite staggering how many never do

    MF - watch that little video I linked to - you might like it.

  118. Sheff that animation was excellent, I want everything I ever hear to be in that format now I could have watched it for hours. ;)

  119. Deano - I am so sorry about Miss Diesel. Having to say goodbye to a beloved friend is always so hard. I send you lots of love. xx

  120. monkeyfish,

    I agree with you on Zizek. He's always interesting and his analysis on the fallacy of Liberal Democracy is excellent. But he courts the 'rock star trendy leftist academic' a bit too much for my liking.

    I suppose he would argue that if it's the way to get the message across then so be it, but I still get the impression he is consumed by 'right ons' who want to show their leftist liberal credentials and who would never in a million years put his ideas into action.

    His 'In defence of lost causes' book is great in parts but he easily loses me with his post modern jargon. His analysis of Robespierre, the Jacobins, the Terror and the nature of Revolution is fascinating though.


    great video. Bookmarked.

  121. Sheff - saw your message late last night re your Iranian protege. Fabulous news!

    Also, the Bar is not allowed to get involved in collective bargaining, but I don't think there is anything in the codes of conduct that stop me protesting on behalf of someone else... I dunno.

    Maybe I could picket Taylor House on my days off. :o)

    Haven't even looked at the Marxism 2010 thread because I had a feeling it was going to be a bit of a car crash, but I shall take a look now.

  122. Deano - am raising a glass to Miss Diesel and also to you and Mungo.


  123. Jay:

    OK, going to try and answer as best I can, better here than on the arse-minefield of CiF.

    I really could see what you were getting at, but I was finding it very hard to make myself understood and I think you were frustrated by the article and my stance. You shouldn't have been.

    I don't think that there is enough understanding or consciousness about how deeply racism and white cultural 'superiority' is embedded within our thinking - it is a fucking parasitical entity, infecting our beliefs and identity on a fundamental level, designed over centuries by our ruling masters. Most people, I would warrant, are not even aware of it or how deep it goes. It has proven to be a very useful tool to keep us all in check and obedient servants.

    I am on my guard and feel that I have to challenge myself and my thinking on many levels and even then, I have struggled with some of the subconscious stereotypical shit that has bubbled-up in my mind from time to time. It's like a shock to the system. It's pernicious shit that needs to be challenged. That was what DanielW was doing in his article.

    This is also why people relate to the pleasurable, self-serving guff Waltz serves up so easily - scratch under the surface and it's gloves off with the likes of her and many others. Anger directed down, not up. Racism and Superiority - red in tooth and claw.

    'Charity', 'Empathy' are the tools we are given as a cover up - it's a fig leaf which stops us questioning that which makes us uncomfortable and so keeps us [and 'them'] in our pre-determined places.

    The only thing I can equate it with in simple terms is, being a fierce Republican meself, how would I react if I met the Queen? Don't laugh, I'm deadly serious.

    The whole row about Andy Murray not bowing to the Queen at Wimbleydon was being hotly debated on the Wright Stuff last week - and everyone of those guests said "he should bow, it's about 'RESPECT' (including Matthew Wright who is, by all accounts a 'soft' Leftie and not scared of saying it like it is) I was lost for words - 'respect'? why? and for what reason? Of course, Mr Murray, did his duty as a good subject and bowed. Fear of rejection/being ostracised is very useful.

    Would I also do my duty as a 'good subject'? In the same circumstances? The weight of control is mighty, but it can be gone in a puff of wind. It only takes one to make the stand.

  124. I just went and got a can out of the fridge (cheapo lager I'm afraid) and I just realised that it has the amount of calories in the can written on the side, is there nothing we can just enjoy anymore.

  125. Deano

    Very sorry to read your sad news. The fact that is for the best will, I hope, give you some comfort.


    They seem to have somewhat clumsily omitted the essential word of this ersatz age: empowerment.

    Or was that deliberate - as they know their agenda is to take power from you?

    The boss of a major company made a pronouncement that the underlings were no longer allowed to report that they were having problems.

    He decreed that henceforth, they were only allowed to report opportunities.

    Eventually, a message came back to him:

    "We seem to be drowning in a sea of insurmountable opportunities."

  126. Duke/Monkeyfish

    "But he courts the 'rock star trendy leftist academic' a bit too much for my liking"

    I think that sometimes they have to work within the system to get heard.... but I'm not sure how many folk would find him 'easy reading' - but if something resonates, surely, it's a good thing?

  127. Jennifera;

    "I just went and got a can out of the fridge (cheapo lager I'm afraid) and I just realised that it has the amount of calories in the can written on the side, is there nothing we can just enjoy anymore"

    No, in a word, it's all about 'personal responsibility' OK-Yah.... unless of course you a banker then enforced personalilty and responsibility by-pass - a pre-requisite!

  128. La Ritournelle

    I should not pipe up when I have no idea what you are talking about, but would suggest that as well as it is a fucking parasitical entity, infecting our beliefs and identity on a fundamental level, designed over centuries by our ruling masters. Most people, I would warrant, are not even aware of it or how deep it goes. It has proven to be a very useful tool to keep us all in check and obedient servants there is also the tribal element.

    We only know to which group we belong by being able to define the other groups to which we do not belong.

    When the groups get too large, we cannot cope. A group which is universal is much like no group at all.

    We need allegiances at a primitive level and the blood-and-sputum spitters trigger responses at those atavistic levels.

    Sorry to barge in.

  129. Great cartoon, Sheff, thanks!

    Jen - the monarchy seems pretty irrelevant to me. The cosy, nepotistic incest of government, big finance and the military-industrial complex needs addressing first. Then we can worry about the queen.

    It's been claimed - and it may even be true - that the royal family pull in more money via tourism etc than they take out of the Treasury.

    Whatever the truth, I don't see them as a threat to my livelihood or liberties. It might even be possible that one day they will protect us from the govt. The Lords did manage to stop a couple of New Labour's more draconian measures. (I'm not saying it's likely in the slightest, but it is possible!)

    Suppose what I'm getting at is that what passes for democracy has failed; the "elected leaders" are in league with the kleptocracy and we are all doomed.

  130. Duke - your post earlier today was brilliant. I hate, hate, hate- relocation, relocation, relocation.

    Kirstie and Phil are tossers and the whole premise is vomit inducing. I have never actually watched a full episode as it brings me out in hives but a lot of people I know love it.

    The whole thing is just so wrong.

    I like a Place in the Sun though - particularly as I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of those who go on it actually have no intention of buying a house - they just want a free trip abroad and the chance to snoop around some properties - no one ever puts an offer in (well rarely).

    Philippa - re making art out of things I 'find'. Wouldn't I need to be a famous artist to get away with that sort of shenanigans though? I doubt that if Jane from Bristol or wherever did a sculpture from reclaimed stuff and gave it a name it would sell much.

    Reminds me of an idea I once had at a wedding though for 'Yorkshire Fascinators' - instead of feathers and bits of shell and all the other stuff you could make them from things you find out and about on the highways and byways of Yorkshire. So if it was around me it could have crumpled Stella cans on it and fag ends - Grimey - put a lump of coal on there. You get the picture. I can just see them going down a treat with the royal set on Ladies day.

  131. Atomboy

    I don't think they would countenance 'empowerment' in our current circs. Only a few weeks ago we were all having our backs rubbed and being told how brilliantly hard working we were and how grateful 'they' were for our loyalty.

    Now they can't get rid of us fast enough. This whole 'redeployment' exercise is being done at the speed of light and is just the beginning. Everyone knows there will be no jobs to be redeployed to. Its a joke. I never realised they could move so fast - they certainly don't move this quickly when we want decisions on operational matters.

  132. MF . Strip away the historicism, the Leninism and the backstory and there is still a powerful analytical tool in Marx.

    Not sure what you mean by historicism exactly a lot of Marxism is about a particular view of history. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. Communist Manefesto but with you totally about Marx as a powerful analytical tool.

    It cuts through the crap and gives you a clear view of what's going on. Considering the rubbish put out by today's media and political class its essential.

    Shef - brilliant video - have bookmarked it!

  133. Atomboy:

    "I should not pipe up when I have no idea what you are talking about" and then "Sorry to barge in"

    I've no problem if you don't get what I'm saying, neither, as it happens, do I have any problem with you barging in. Barge away ;)

    I've got to go up the shop and get some more beers in.... will come back to you shortly.

  134. In the meantime....

    Some lovely songs of Warblers ofr everyone to enjoy ;-) x

  135. Jennifer - just wait till they start putting those pics of diseased livers and people who are dead on bottles of wine and lager etc. Doubt it will make its way onto the really expensive stuff though. Its interesting that while fags and baccy now have pics of dead people on them to put off the general rabble - fine cigars don't seem to have to have any of that shit going on. Those thirty/forty quid bottles of wine and champagne won't have the proposed warnings on.

    Its okay for us to be worked to death by evil employers or for the government to make people ill with their forcing of the sick into work but don't any of us dare to do it to ourselves by - god forbid - having a drink or a smoke or eating something with a bit of sugar in it!

  136. http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/families/warblers.aspx

  137. Leni

    Home Office Minister Lynn Featherstone(LibDem) has spoken out against George Osbornes plans to drive down the number of people claiming disability benefits.And is concerned at the 'perverse incentives' in the system to declare people fit for work who clearly can,t work.And it appears she is being supported by a small but growing number of backbenchers who have woken up to what could happen if ATOS carry on with these inhumane medicals.

    Will be interesting to see whether the pilots being rolled out in Burnley and Aberdeen in the Autumn for existing claimants will have significant changes in the way these dreadful medicals are being conducted.

    As you know i posted Bella wotshername on WADDYA to see whether the Guardian will be on the case as this 'sorry chapter' unfolds.She didn,t respond so i don,t know whether that reflects an indifference at Guardian Towers to the plight of vulnerable sick people.

  138. Duke

    But at least Zizek's a Marxist. I think there's plenty of confusion between that and those people who accept the analysis but reject the revolutionary imperative (and Lenin's 'input'...I think that dialectical materialism, the historical inevitability or scientific socialist strain must be pretty well extinct by now). By my reckoning this lot should really class themselves as 'Marxian' rather than Marxist..or Marxisant if you've a penchant for berets and Galoise and impressionable young students...mind you..who doesn't at some stage or other.

    Then again, that doesn't really help just because the term embraces so many divergent opinions..Tariq Ali, Bea Campbell, Terry Eagleton, Brendan O'Neill, Mick Hume, Furedi..don't get me wrong..I agree with about 51% of Spiked..they're especially good on the marginalisation and defamation of the working class but they do tend to come across as precocious sixth form drama queens a bit too often.

    There's a chapter in Hobsbawn's "On History" in which he points out the absorption of Marxian analyses into history and economics which kinda makes the point that we're pretty much all Marxian in our thinking these days but in a subconscious and unacknowledged way...like we're all Aristotelian because we kinda internally accept syllogistic logic or we're all Newtonian or Einsteinian because we're subject to gravity and don't go floating off into the stratosphere.

  139. Sheff

    I assume that their gilded wonderfulnessess who occupy the heady heights of the hierarchy are not themselves subject to this process.

    In that case, they would seem to be ensuring their own survival by being able to report to their masters:

    "Look, sirs, we have done as you said, plus a bit more. We have got rid of all the wastrels, so perhaps we could stuff some of the money saved into our back pockets. May I also kiss your kindly proffered fundament, sir?"


    Jonathan Miller appeared in a programme in which he nailed bits of driftwood and scrap-iron to old doors and called it art.

    He puckered his face and furrowed his brow and pronounced:

    "Of course, this looks as if anyone could do it. You could try, but you would never be able to do it as well as me."

    Righty-ho, chum.

  140. OK, off for some hard-core Corrie.

    "Laters" as the cool kidz on The Street say.

  141. anntan

    I meant Marx's view of history as subject to an immutable process of class conflict which would only end with the rise of the proletariat...although I think he'd lost faith himself largely due to the British working class's failure to accept its ordained role.

  142. I really dunno what to do myself the last couple of nights. Where's the bloody football?

  143. I'm not coping well with the lack of football, I stopped watching normal TV so I could watch all the matches and now I can't be bothered to start watching again.

    I might even do some work or something.

  144. La Rit
    I don't think that there is enough understanding or consciousness about how deeply racism and white cultural 'superiority' is embedded within our thinking - it is a fucking parasitical entity, infecting our beliefs and identity on a fundamental level, designed over centuries by our ruling masters. Most people, I would warrant, are not even aware of it or how deep it goes. It has proven to be a very useful tool to keep us all in check and obedient servants

    Yes its divide and rule but the way you put it is very disempowering it creates a fear in people the sort of fear that creates myths like 'muslims are insulted by christmas' they aren't every Muslim I have ever known wishes me happy christmas at that time.

    In 1984 when at NUT conference the NUM sent us a Durham miner to speak at a fringe meeting. He referred to 'blacklegs' a word commonly used instead of scab up there. It refers to a time in the 19th century when mine owners imported Cornish tin miners to break a strike. They wore black moleskin trousers (moleskin is a kind of fabric I think) hence 'blacklegs'. The poor guy was roundly attacked by some people in the audlence for racism. They should learn their history it was no such thing. A worker in struggle was attacked by people who expected a working man to be racist, he wasn't most working people aren't.

    I have been a Marxist for 30 years nothing human is alien to me I do not subscribe to ruling class philosophy I have my own.

    Thiese ideas are not unconquerable, the ruling class (our masters) are not all powerful. People can be educated out of racism but not by screaming at them as some do (not suggesting you do) but by explaining where the vile philosophy comes from and who it benefits.

    AS to bowing to Her maj - I would be placed in a situation of having to - don't wish to meet her if forced to I wouldn't bow. (knees would make curtseying impossible LOL)

    But if I had been in the position of becoming an MP I would take the oath of allegiance it would be more important to have a voice for the people in parliament I think. Its all meaningless flim flam anyway.

  145. monkeyfish

    But at least Zizek's a Marxist. I think there's plenty of confusion between that and those people who accept the analysis but reject the revolutionary imperative

    Very much so. What I like about Zizek is how provocative he is. He purposely challenges post 89 Liberal thought that humanity's future is merely an anonymous fate, that humans cannot by collective action, guide and steer our development, that we are merely at the mercy of the whims of an anonymous market and that "There is no alternative."

    When he espouses his philososphy as "egalitarianism with a taste of terror", he's deliberately using words with loaded assumptions (terror) which are "not to our taste" to fundamentally challenge the political orthodoxies of our age.

    I just wish he would lose the jargon at times.

    Hobsbawm's "On History" is inspiring. It's a total rebuttal of post-modernism from the Marxist Historian perspective. He's also excellent on the rebuttal of identity group history and moral relativism.

  146. Can you quote from Marx to support that view? I can't recall it. How do you suggest we get rid of capitalism then?

    Only the working class (and anyone who depends on a wage or salary is working class) benefits from the removal of capitalism so no-one else is going to do it.

    To quote the manefesto again:
    Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other - bourgeoisie and proletariat.

    In the final analysis, apart from a few lackeys there is only bourgeoisie and proletariat. or do you think the bourgeoisie will just conveniently destroy itself?

    It doesn't look like doing so any time soon, but it is becoming increasingly clear that they will go on screwing us until we get of our knees and fight to end this nightmare. AS I have said before you do it by convincing ones twos and threes who in turn convince others until a critical mass of conscious workers is achieved.

    What else is there? except a descent into barbarism.

  147. above is a reply to MF sorry!

  148. Why do people act in a counterproductive way?

    I just wrote a long piece which crashed.
    On the way home I saw mothers hitting their children, dragging them along, abusing them emotionally and psychologically as well as physically.

    This is of course intergenerational as these mothers and fathers who cannot raise their kids obviously grew up in dysfunctional homes, as will their kid's kids.

    Why children?

  149. chekhov + Paul

    trying to respond - keep getting 'unavailable'.

    Hope this arrives.

    Anne - interesting thoughts .

  150. Napoleon K

    Child abuse in all its forms is often passed down the generations.And sometimes it can occur in families which have broken down as a result of the stress caused by longterm unemployment,divorce etc.

    I don,t know why the government doesn,t take the bull by the horns and announce a zero tolerance to all forms of child abuse.And put much greater levels of investment in the Childrens Services that are needed to protect children.Men and women who abuse children are often extremely adept at deflecting the attentions of the authorites.And even the most abused child can be 'groomed ' by abusive parents to keep schtum about what,s happening to them.

    Finally it is my perception that as a society we are still reluctant to face up to the fact that women are responsible for most of the non-sexual abuse of children that goes on in our society.And that boys are more likely than girls to suffer from non-sexual abuse.This is all documented in Social Trends which is the annual ONS 'bible' about British society.There is therefore a big question mark as to whether the Childrens Services are taking a tough enough line in child abuse allegations where women are involved.Between 70-80 children die in Britain every year as a result of domestic abuse.And women-either acting alone or in collusion with men they choose to be with-are responsible for most of these child deaths.

  151. Napoleon

    The NSPCC has consistantly found in its research that women are more likely than men to subject children to non-sexual abuse defined as-physical violence,neglect and emotional,psychological and verbal abuse.Social Trends shows that more boys than girls are either taken into care or put on the 'at risk register' as a result of non-sexual abuse.

  152. BB
    some right idiots on that Collabo thread.
    Lousiest headline, subheader and article I've seen for some time. A few good comments tho.

  153. Nap I don't know a lot about child abuse but I do kind of agree with your comment.

    Here, actual physical abuse in public is now a lot rarer (I guess the nanny state has good points) but verbal abuse and belittling of children happens a lot.

    I mean the kind of insults and put downs you wouldn't hear on here.

    Because my sisters all have children and most of them live middle class lifestyles I also see the psychological abuse that goes on with some of their friends children.

    Constant expectations, no praise only wanting more and more from them.

    Then you have the parents whose children can do no wrong, according to my sisters you get a lot of that, teaching children that they are not responsible for the consequences of their actions is a big part of our problems today I think.

    Having said all that I am an outside observer and most of the children I have contact with are fine but I do worry for my neices and nephews.

  154. Thauma:

    "Whatever the truth, I don't see them as a threat to my livelihood or liberties. It might even be possible that one day they will protect us from the govt."

    The 'truth' for what it's worth, is that whilst they don't directly affect your livelihood and liberties, they represent the titular head of a gross socio-economic dysfunction - an elemental repression of the highest order. They exert a pressure on land, power and govt. which is (as Sheff's link shows) being steadily replaced by Bankers and Finance. Even as they hold onto their ridiculous faux 'jobs' and ever-growing billion pound property portfolios, dressed in pomp and circumstance, they are trapped themselves in a tourist attraction 'Royal Theme Park' operating out of Buckingham Palace, complete with a solid Gold 'Cinderella' Coach.

    The former Courtiers and minor 'Royals' - disbarred from the inner circle long ago, such as Cameron, have been waiting in the wings for about 300 years to 'seize power'. Their plan is well underway after a 13 year hiatus and they will, I suspect be the ones who will be happily lopping off heads and feeding them to the masses to keep the bankers happy. Just you wait.


    "the way you put it is very disempowering"

    Why? Anne? I'm telling it like it is.

    "it creates a fear in people"

    How? By telling them they need to look beyond the structured and vicious domination they've been subject to and saying - time to 'wake up'?

    "the sort of fear that creates myths like 'muslims are insulted by christmas'"

    No, Anne, with all due respect, we are talking at cross-purposes, anyone worth their salt would know that the term 'blackleg' was another word for 'scab' - you see, it makes us doubt our own reasoning and historical knowledge.


    Since you're talking Zizek.....

    "When he espouses his philososphy as "egalitarianism with a taste of terror", he's deliberately using words with loaded assumptions (terror) which are "not to our taste" to fundamentally challenge the political orthodoxies of our age"

    I fundamentally and fully understand his "egalitarianism with a taste of terror" - it's necessary if we are to get anywhere.

  155. Thanks.

    I wrote a much longer piece which sadly got gobbled up, but yeah it just feels so sad that most of these children who have not been raised properly will not have the right social skills when they have kids.
    Re, the mothers- I have seen plenty of bad fathers too, jsut tonight I saw mothers. It is not really a male/female issue

    It kind of makes the Guardian's take of 'progressive' issues like whatever Bidisha is writing about each week rather galling.

    Also just pissed of with Glasgow as well. From the Herald report about endemic organised crime infiltration into 'legitimate' business, and also the words of one of my new friends, paraphrased- 'In Glasgow you are frowned upon for succeeding'.

  156. Hi LaRit

    There seems a bit of a pattern though, the more racism is frowned upon, the less overt racism there is, and probably the less racism there is full stop (the UK has a signifcant black population now), yet accompanying this move is the insistence that the less racism we see the more subtle it must have become, and naturally more insidious.

    There is no winning with idealogues like Werweru, less racism actually equals more racism, more charity and focus on Africa equals more dehumanisation of Africa, covering African problems equals commodifying them, and so on. You cant win.

    I first encountered him on a Harker thread before i knew he was an actual writer. He was certainly memorable. I found him a complete moron, to be frank, memorably so. Seeing him actually ATL was a bit of a shock.

    He claimed in his piece that it was wrong to presume white people saw Africans as "human". Thats a very strong claim. His evidence was some photos by a white photographer of an African woman in labour and the tendency for the media to portray Africans as either stars or victims, no imbetween.

    The childbirth one was dealt with, in my eyes - and he didnt bother defending that point further. The binary media i do have more sympathy with, but is coverage of the rest of the world really so different, S America, Asia, etc?

    We tend to get only major news, majorly negative or positive - stars, coups, wars, heroes, famines, etc. Thats news. Dave the Nigerian builder going about his business is distinctly less so.

    I just dont really warm to this type of argument, common in the "isms", that isnt really backed up in a solid manner, its very theoretical, very intangible, mysterious unseen forces which should just be accepted on the back of a paper thin polemic.

    I'd just like something a bit "harder" behind all this really.

  157. Paul
    Re - pilot incap reassessments. Had look at reports for both areas. Interesting differences and similarities.

    Aberdeen and surrounding area were looking at ec dev in light of expected diminishing oil revenues. This will change now I assume in light of new oil finds. Many of the oil workers bussed in by oil companies - rig workers return home in down time spending little in Aberdeen and immediate area.

    Burnley - very depressing. High levels of unemployment, long term sick and large immigrant population with poor infrastructure. If they can 'get people/ off benefits there will be a miracle unless they are willing to leave them to die of hunger. Very low skill base - just what kinds of jobs will be available is unclear.

    We lack a left wing campaigning paper - can'r rely on Guardian to be in vanguard here. There is no longer a rallying point , the media have sold out. Facts are not being published.

    We need more than sympathy for the sick and poor - we need to articulate economic and social alternatives, to do this effectively we need a clear analysis of what we face.

    Cif pieces are designed to beget angry and partisan responses - not to analyse or to be constructive.

    sorry this is in note form - bottom of page (followers) not displaying, showing error message. Hope this lands.

  158. I'm off to bed I think. Haven't quite got over my hangover still, so I think some juice and bed is the best thing for me.


    Ain't dat da troof. THFC gets my goat a good deal of the time, but when he starts ranting on about the poor beleaguered Nazis in WW2 having a terrible time being attacked by the maquis, I lose my temper with him.

    Revisionist tosser.

    Next he will be saying that Inglourious Basterds is an example of the way in which the Nazi "guests" in France were oppressed and abused by their "hosts"...

    Night night me darlings.

  159. Leni

    Landed well and truly. Very interesting point. At the end of the day we don't have a decent left wing outlet of any kind any more.

    I wonder if the internet will be seen as the 21st C version of pamphleteering though?

    Deffo NN now x

  160. This comment has been removed by the author.

  161. Napoleon

    You,re absolutely right there are plenty of bad fathers about.I had the misfortune of having one meself.However the point i was making is that the role of women in the abuse of children is IMHO either played down or not taken as seriously as it should be.And that needs to change.

  162. Paul

    The non-sexual abuse thing is interesting, I posted those figures a while back, the Guardian has never done a single piece on it i dont think. But considering women still do the majority of primary care for children and are the majority of single parents, it actually isnt that surprising - they're the ones doing most of the caring and so they're also the ones in contact with children the most.

    But dont hold your breath on a Graun piece, i remember being deleted once for posting the statistics on infanticide in the UK - wiped. Even facts can be unacceptable in this brave new progressive world...

  163. Paul

    not denying that women as well as men can abuse children - and elderly folk - but you have to be careful with the published figures. There are more women than men who are sole carers of children. This skews the figures.

    There are so many reports on how people respond to stress or bad life experiences. One interesting report I read said the poor women and wealthy men were likely to be overweight while poor men and well to do women tend to thiness. we can't conclude from this that all poor men are skinny.

  164. Hi Leni

    Very interesting.I know how grim the situation is in Burnley but haven,t had time tolook up the gen on Aberdeen.Although i always perceived it as being relatively prosperous with a relatively low level of working aged people on disability benefits.But you,re spot on.Unless the government radically changes these dreadful ATOS medicals the human misery they will cause doesn,t bear thinking about.

  165. @annetan

    They wore black moleskin trousers (moleskin is a kind of fabric I think) hence 'blacklegs'. The poor guy was roundly attacked by some people in the audlence for racism.

    Good thing there wasn't an Irish speaker talking about the Black & Tans...

  166. Leni

    Point taken.The role of women as primary carers can skew the figures.But in the PC world we live in any research portraying men as abusers tends to be played up whereas when women are the abusers it tends to be played down.So we are reguarly told by the media about the plight of women and children who are abused by men but not so much about children and men who are abused by women.Guess i,m looking for a bit of rebalancing in the name of true gender equality.

  167. Hi Leni: Re- your question from yesterday:
    It's a bit of both really. We get a brief from the client and start out with a script and improvise from there so it gets re-written all the time.
    Non of the particpants from the company we are working with (much to their relief!) are expected to do any acting or role playing.
    However they are given the opportunity to "hot seat" the actors and later to "direct" a re-run of the action.
    Hope that makes sense.

  168. Jay

    SNAP.I posted something similar which also disappeared as opposed to being moderated.Guess Bindel,Bidisha and Campbell were on mod duty that day.

  169. JayR:

    Of course DW's ideas are strong and unpalatable - they're meant to be. Not because it's not true but because he's right. When I went to the Slave Castle in Cape Coast in Ghana in 2005 - a good proportion of African Americans couldn't cope with the idea that some of the 'enemy' who had enslaved millions were their very own people - Chiefs on the make - Black people colluding with White people to enslave Black people.

    This is what I'm saying about people's perceptions - they refuse to accept 'inherent' racism (against their own and against those of their class) - it's not a happy place to be when you realise that that's what you've been colluding in, even if it was subconsciously - or consciously for a few extra quid in your back pocket.

    At some point, you have to get off the fence and take the plunge, you can't wait around for absolutisms. I know it sounds like madness, but it's not far off the truth.

    Real oppression, by its very nature is is 'intangible' - hence all the facile arguments about 'Left and Right' and who thinks what and who is 'working' class and who is 'middle' class... that's why it's so easy for the Right Wing legions to appropriate language - as an example - the pro-hunting 'fraternity' became an 'oppressed minority' even though they represented the ruling classes theatrical domination via continuing blood sports.

  170. Re ol' Slavoj: egalitarianism with a taste of terror is a snappy line covering a lot of stuff. My take is that his 'terror' is as much a psychological one, as a revolutionary one, or more properly that a psychological terrifying (as opposed to terrorism) of the bourgeois liberal classes. Nothing terrifies so much as having one's world view utterly rocked or destroyed: cf cognitive dissonance, which might be taken as a very apt description of the collective process going on with the comfortable chatterati, as evidence mounts not only that they aren't secure, but also that their meritocracy schtick is a self-serving fiction that's been seen through, and that the turbo-capitalists on whose coat-tails they'd clung are scamsters who are only too happy to ditch their junior acolytes.
    For him the terror is the effect produced when people encounter truth, the drawing back of the curtain, and the dissolution of all the comforting delusional, illusory 'certainties' of modern capitalisation, exposing the fuzzy warm crap that surrounds and masks the savageries of neo-liberalism .He said "I am a monster who plays, pretends he is human", and that's true inasmuch as much of what passes for civilisation is a facde, one that's been necessary perhaps at points in time as an evolutionary step, but also a facade that became ever more warped and twisted to suit the ends of elite cliques, all the time cloaking the underlying tensions inherent in the human condition; the particular vs the universal, the individual against the collective,the personal vs the political. I read him as wanting chiefly to rip things up and start again.

  171. I have just had a wee disagreement with Hermione on waddya (now I like Hermione so I am not disagreeing with her for the sake of it) but with being a bit tipsy I am not sure if I made an arse of myself, can someone have a look and tell me?

  172. JayR:

    You are also bang on the point, the more racism is silenced, the more subtle it becomes.......

    Sorry, now too much wine et al....tired :(

  173. Paul/Leni

    'Abuse' has many definitions. Sexual abuse is obviously rhe worse, but the mundane everyday if there is lots of it can have a drip drip effect. As someone said it is the verbal absue and constant putting down. I have seen mothers calling four of five year olds cunts and bastards.
    The old 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me' is of course incorrect. On smacking I do not know as I am not a parent and as such I cannot give an answer to my opinion on it. But it is obvious that the reverse is true in the 'sticks and stones' phrase.

    Anyway enough of that. I have some charming gay Dutch male ballet dancers staying in my flat, just arrived today, staying for a few days. They are very nice, lol.

  174. NapK:

    "I have some charming gay Dutch male ballet dancers staying in my flat, just arrived today, staying for a few days"

    Sounds like you lucked out Nap!

    I expect you will be doing some plies in the morning...


  175. Napoleon

    How do you know that sexual abuse is obviously worse.You can,t make generalisations like that Nap.Neither Victoria Climbie nor Baby P suffered sexual abuse before they died as far as i know.Didn,t they suffer enough?

  176. Jen:

    H. Gingold is a nasty shit if you ask me.....

    but I'll have a look

  177. LaRit:-)

    Did a double take there.Thought you said piles not plies.

  178. Too true Paul, I knew a guy at college who had been viciously physically abused by his father to the point of hospitalisation a couple of times.

    He was a member of a survivours group and he got sick of being told that his abuse was somehow lesser because it was physical.

    He left the group in the end because it was so hurtful to him.

  179. Jennifera30: nowt wrong with that, and I wouldn't worry about upsetting Hermione, she/he is pretty bullet-proof.

  180. Jen

    Don,t think you did any harm on waddya Jen.That subject can be tough one at the best of times.Don,t worry about it:-)

  181. You're well ok Jen. Stop fretting.

    H Gingold has taken the (Stephen Fry) superiority complex to a new high ... wouldn't be surprised if it is him.

    Where's Immy these days anyway? Hanging her head in shame no doubt.

  182. Paul

    Few years ago I had a look - in very informal way - at local multiplier here. By here I mean this small valley. After collapse of mining many families left. Lots of empty houses. About 7 years years ago - tourist development started- grant funded. Provided mainly basic wage jobs. Even informal look at where the money goes it was obvious that most goes elsewhere. All very small shops such as hairdresser or veg or butchers shops gone. Local shops can't compete with supermarkets so most family regular spending done in nearby towns. Mountain bike centre owner lives outside area - not even in Wales. Bank closed, petrol station closed - since tourist investment.

    We could improve things , create more jobs in retail, buy from local farmers etc. Most of the things we buy are sourced elsewhere.

    Towns have Burger cafes but don't source meat, bread or salads locally. Could go on but you get the picture.

    QUestion is this - in areas with high levels of unemployment how much of that money goes back into local economy ? Most goes to utilities companies- benefits benefit the utility companies and tescos. Had a look at special offers in tesco today - nothing I buy. Crisps, fizzy drinks etc. Alcohol obviously.

    We have to build local economies. Utilities should be taken out of the for profit economy and sold at cost.

    Another major problem - described as quality of life. poor infrastructure, lack of facilities etc as well as general run down appearances deter many from living in many areas. We have lousy doctors - tend to get those nobody else wants. Drs like to live in 'good' areas with better schools.

    We have shortage of professional people in community groups. Lawyers, accountants etc. Unless you can get confidant volunteers to take on challenges however well intentioned or aware they are they can be unadventurous - some still fear authority and lack self confidence.

    Sorry to go on - expressing my own anger and frustration here. i live among lovely people who have been shafted/

  183. I may have posted this before - it's about fighting the blackleg miners of the North-East, round Seaton Delaval and Seghill.

  184. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z98gVWxXVeM

    The Blackleg Miner.

  185. Leni

    Just wrote you a long reply which won,t post.It,s a real bastard when that happens.Haven,t got time to re-write it now so will try and do it later.

  186. leni: btw, with regard your concern about "NLP".
    I don't know much about it to be honest but my understanding is that we cherry-pick the bits that are useful as techniques for creating "back stories" for the characters we create.
    The programmes we run are not based on "NLP", and the concept is never mentioned when working with our clients.

    I don't know if the term comes directly from "NLP" but we call them "Meta Programmes" (concepts of human interaction).

    They are continuums which help people to define where they stand in relation to various circumstances. For instance:

    moving towards......................moving away




    That sort of thing.

    When I finally work out how to do these bloody links, I'll send you a more detailed analysis if you are interested.

    None of this stuff we do is particulary new. It's been pinched from all over the place and re-packaged into a format which can be sold as a product in the market place.

  187. chekhov

    NLP again. In terms of communication the NLPers state

    In terms og impact of spoken communication

    55% comes from body language
    38% from tone
    7% content.

    Two things at least are clear from this - assuming they are correct.

    Te first is that misunderstanding in online comunities is inevitable as we have only content.

    That rabble rousers can be effective even when talking nonsense so long as their moves and tone are 'right' - hence all the 'rebranding' of politicians.

    NLPers also say that the body language and tone can be learned through observation and training.These techniques have long been used by snake oil merchants.

    The best known technique in 1-1 exchanges is mirroring - ie copying the gestures and pacing your speech to atch that of your companion - flatters him and trying to make him see himself in you. Can be very manipulative.

    Some of do still listen to the words and then examine them to see what they mean in practice.