Good morning/evening Montana,Just wanted to put up a link for BB.
beautifulburnout's comment 03 Jul 10, 4:11pm Oh, the canadian police are renowned for being agents provocateurs at protests. I can't find it right now, but there is some superb footage of a very peaceful picket outside company, and a bunch of people with bandanas over their faces and rocks in their hands start to stir up the shit.
Morning all - daughter stayed around last night - work leaving do - (Partner also out drinking and needed a good night's sleep before work!).
Cat a bit better actually nibbled some chopped chicken with jelled stock and has had a drink.
Took her upstairs last night and she got onto the window sill herself.
Got downstairs in the night and was asleep on my chair this morning.
Still very quiet though - will take her to the vet tomorrow if she hasn't got better. Local emergency vet charges £70 + !!
Have found a flat! its on the first floor but its in the same complex as the one I lost and its even more beautiful! bedroom is a bit smaller as the stairs (leading to own front door) take up some space. Has french windows and 'Juliette' balcony with enough room for a few pots.
Frog2 - thanks! I've bookmarked it now for future deployment :o)
Annetan - glad to hear the kitty is on the mend. Hope you manage to move successfully this time too. My sis was supposed to be moving house this weekend and is on the verge of bazooka-ing the solicitors' office I think...
LaRit - I heard a rumour that it was going to rain this afternoon anyway... ;o)
Montana - Happy 4th July! Hope you have a good day.
So its 40% cuts all round then! Wont be of course but then people will be relieved when its 'only' 20 or 30% won't they?
I'm sorry to quote from my own piece but we should not be surprised because as far back as the 1640's:-
This is the freedom that the bourgeois revolution seeks to attain, the freedom to exploit capital and the freedom of every individual to rise in society by their own efforts and not the privilege of birth. This was the motive for the civil war.
This was of course an advance but as we see below a limited one. In that sense "Liberalism" is limited as it represents real(ecconomic) freedom only for the capitalist class. Socialists demand that that freedom be expanded to all classes. Political freedom is not enough and is in the final analysis pointless without ecconomic freedom. As I said in my piece on the English Civil war.
The rank and file of the army soon recognised that the Freedom and Liberty that the capitalist farmer talked of meant unrestricted rights to exploit them.
To the merchant it meant the right to build his wealth on the labour of others and to the owners of property it meant passing laws to further protect their property.
To the common people it meant freedom from fear, insecurity and release from poverty.
To the artisan and petty tradesman, peasant or agricultural labourer it was freedom from those very freedoms demanded by the wealthy.
Recent events show that despite some gains in the last century real freedom or Liberty is still only for the rich and powerfu, this situation has remained essentially unchanged for nearly 400 years.
17% of male graudates now unemployed, quite a shocking figure. Most of those people have paid £20k-£25k for a degree to find not only can they not get a graduate job, they cant even get *any* job.
Labours 50% graduate policy - sheer and utter madness.
If say, you think the idea of a Basic Income is a good one for many reasons, you can't only work for that inside a Party( except Greens,Labour are terrified of anything radical ?) but go outside too.
The main hope for departments of avoiding the full extent of 40 per cent cutbacks is the summer-long drive by ministers to cut the welfare bill, currently running at £192billion a year.
Mr Osborne has already signalled that efforts to take more of those on incapacity benefit off welfare will form a significant part of plans to cut Britain's deficit, saying: "It's a choice we all face. It is not a choice we can duck."
As a start, ministers will reduce incapacity benefit paid to claimants if they are found capable of doing some work. Pilot studies have suggested half of those assessed could be taken off higher rates of benefit.
It also includes this lovely piece of - what shall we call it? - spin or propaganda or downright blatant lying:
A Treasury spokesman said: "We are determined to tackle the record budget deficit in order to keep rates lower for longer, protect jobs, and maintain the quality of essential public services.
"The Cabinet has been briefed on the planning assumptions that their departments should use for the initial phase of the spending review.
"These planning assumptions are not final settlements, and do not commit the Treasury or departments to final settlements.
"These assumptions will be negotiated so that we both tackle the deficit and support the freer, fairer and more responsible Britain we want to see."
As annetan42 says: It is time for change!
Yeah, not, though, on the gorgeous pages of CiF, apparently.
I thought I would dip a toe in the water over there and have a little paddle, what with the hot weather and all.
Well, Lordy me and lummie, cripes and flip! It seems that it is still just the same old swirling, discoloured place it always was, the area of the sewage outflow with the usual turds in the ascendancy, bobbing on the surface and softly plopping underneath the waves as the tides dictate.
CiF must have thought it would be perpetual Christmas, with the lovely LibDems it had backed and the kinder, gentler Tories in charge. Everyone hated New Labour, so they had to be, at last, backing a winner.
Except, of course, that just a few weeks into the new regime, it looks as if everyone is going to hate their new pals even more than clumsy old Gordon and slippery, sleek Mandelson.
I managed one post mildly critical of New Labour, one (I think) mildly critical of the new cult of pain and one mildly critical of the esteemed majesty of The Guardian.
No messing about with deletions any more, just straight into pre-mod.
What a bunch of useless, deluded and meretricious fuckwits compose CiF and all who wobblingly sail in her or cling to the wreckage and flotsam and jetsam which trails behind in her churning wake.
Things are going to get hairy and scary and it is not going to take too long.
Meanwhile, the Seaton Gang have their hands clasped over their ears and are ululating in their usual idiotic sequestered fairyland.
As Tony Blair had no idea of history beyond his own artificial Year Zero and was too thick to think anyone needed to plan for what might happen after his masturbatory Iraq War, so the Guardianistas and CiFerati imagine that nobody alive today could possibly remember the Thatcher years.
As Polly Toynbee said, recessions can be a lot of fun for the rich and actually bolster the bank balance.
Remember (and sing in bitter unison): We are all in this together.
Jay - Yes the 50% graduate thing was madness! Its based on the idea that the way to solve 'inequality' is to give everyone an academic education - it isn't The way towards equality is to develop a mindset that gives equal status to the well trained craftsman. We still subscribe to the odd notion that you don't use your brains when working with your hands.
TBH I think someone who is a well trained plumber, carpenter, bricklayer etc is worth a hell of a lot more to society than someone with a degree in business stydies, media studies etc.Then there are all those Oxbridge English degrees - say no more!
Time for change - how?
First we have to build the consciousness of people - so that enough people see the necessity for change.
Then you can start talking. Doing anything before that is premature, will fail and cause disillusionment.
Ayomboy do you want two of those de;eted altogether or just 'deleted by author'?
Does anyone here think that they could explain the thought processes of MartynInEurope to me?
Edwin claimed on Waddaya that only 10% of Americans supported Britain in the early 40s and said that this was due to isolationism and America's hatred of Britain.
I spent well over an hour trying to find any sort of figures on American attitudes towards Britain prior to our entry into the war. Not an easy task, but I did find out that, as I suspected, the notion that only 10% of Americans supported Britain in the early 40s was codswollop, so I responded with what I'd found out.
MartynInEurope then posted this:
MontanaWildhack
3 Jul 2010, 10:49PM
Lot of crap written about anti this and anti that. In my home towns of Spain, including the very left-wing Cordoba, we welcome visitors (and people who want to live here) from the USA. , the fact they are usually liberals does help, but we are generally very nice to visitors and foreign residents (like me), no matter where they come from and what they think.
We don't hate people from the USA, we hate your governments policies and actions.This is somewhat different IMHO
Anyone want to take a stab at explaining how that has anything to do with what I'd said to Edwin?
First we have to build the consciousness of people - so that enough people see the necessity for change.
I think people are realising quite quickly just how bad things are and with this 40% malarky realise the government is preparing them for it. Deliberate scare tactics - threaten 40% cuts and HMG hopes everyone will heave sigh of relief when they end up being 25% or 30%
People I've been talking to aren't just worried - they're getting frightened now, for themselves obviously but also because of the chaos thats likely to ensue.
When you've got global players who have no interest in the UK speculating on whether we can pay our debt off and with the power to leave us in economic ruins by deciding we can't (see Greece), HMG will not tolerate too much, if any real dissent.
Unions will be calling for industrial action (rightly) but the fact is its unlikely to be coordinated action which will leave people exposed and will they want to take that kind of risk?
Can we bring this government down? And what do we want in it's place, I mean realistically? The return of the NuLabour apparatchicks? And if we did how would that affect our economy and our people?
why aren't humanities students worth more or equal to society than carpenters etc?
how do you define worth?
I agree that 50% of people attaining degrees is misguided - academic study is not necessarily professional preparation, where as apprenticeships, city and guilds etc are better routes through for some professions.
However, I'd argue strongly against your perception that an Oxbridge English degree is worthless, either in professional areas, industry or academia.
There are poor universities, poorly organised courses and poor lecturers in every university discipline, but that doesn't mean that this is solely confined to the Humanities.
I've worked with numerous employers (blue chip - start ups) and many of them complain that engineering and science graduates are ill-prepared for business environments and industry.
With all the cuts to universities, the quality across all areas is going to depreciate.
Surely we want great universities producing great thinkers and do-ers?
and surely we also want good, solid, practical courses and apprenticeships to cater for different people's interests and skills as well?
The two are not mutually exclusive - some universities support apprenticeship programmes, sandwich year placements etc, and give accreditation to HND/HNC qualifications.
In reciprocation, the companies training up people on apprenticeships are also staffed with graduates across industry, using their different skill sets to make their contribution.
it gets very tedious hearing the constant let's bash the humanities argument, when actually it would prove far more beneficial to society to support across all the subject areas and highlight failings in them in order to improve them not to dismantle them.
Can we bring this government down? And what do we want in it's place, I mean realistically? The return of the NuLabour apparatchicks? And if we did how would that affect our economy and our people?
I would be a bit careful of this line of thought.
It is a bit like saying: My old Hillman Minx, which I bought twentieth-hand thirty years ago seems to have spluttered its last oily gasp. What shall I do? I had always set my heart on replacing it with a Bugatti Veyron, so I suppose I shall just have to keep saving my usual £5 per week and hope that I live for a thousand years and they are still making my dream car and inflation does not wipe out my devious and cunning plan.
There are ways of ameliorating or changing events without actually having a shiny, loved-by-all replacement ready to pounce at a moment's notice.
Numbed
Education wants to become a process whereby businesses offload the cost of training onto the state in order to reap more lovely profits when the appropriately qualified applicants come cap-in-hand for a job.
As for targets of 50% - this is grossly unfair! What about the other poor 50%? Why can't they clutch and cuddle a degree like everyone else? Why cannot burger-flippers have appropriate degrees, so that we can all be equal?
After all, everyone wants to be just the same as everyone else, don't they?
What was the point of someone writing Brave New World if it was never going to come true?
Numbed - I didn't say those degrees were worthless they aren't. Any civilised society needs the arts.
But I do not consider them necessaeily a) more intelligent or b) superior to someone who is a skilled time served tradesman, who can incidentally be well read and knowledgeable about theatre, music (all genres) and literature.
But we can survive without the 'glitterati' but without time served (i.e. fully trained) tradesmen we would all be living in tents (even then we would need tent makers!).
I would just like the status of trades to commensurate with their usefulness and I would like the idea that such people are thick to be abolished for the insulting crap it is.
I'd agree with your first statement about the conflicts between what industry wants from degree educated staff and what universities/students want from the process.
I don't think all degrees should be considered industry training, but I also don't think that that degrees should be divorced from the reality of industry and employment.
A balance must be sought, but it's woefully inadequate at present.
The compulsory career development module at universities is ridiculous - covering only very basic things like how to write a CV, which most undergraduates should already have experience of prior to university.
During my course, I was also given the familiar talk about how I could expect an average starting salary post-uni of £20,000 - which given the current climate couldn't be further from the truth!
As for your burger flippers... they have qualifications I don't:
Food Handling, Hygiene, Manual Handling, COSHH etc and there are a raft of further qualifications in catering and cookery available as well. I believe that Costa and a few other coffee chains offer Barista training as well.
I don't think degrees are for everyone.
What should be available is a combination of academic led study, practical skills and industry specific training.
well, who should pay for it? that's the difficult balance.
There are ways of ameliorating or changing events without actually having a shiny, loved-by-all replacement ready to pounce at a moment's notice.
Fair enough Atomboy, I take your point. But its not a 'shiny, loved by all etc" change I'm looking for - something much more realistic than that. But what? And how? The present gov's cure looks like it may well kill the patient and it'll be a long and painful death.
All I and others I know have at the moment are a lot of questions and to be honest, apart from thoughts of resistance, attempts at finding realistic and practical solutions seem pretty thin on the ground.
"But I do not consider them necessaeily a) more intelligent or b) superior to someone who is a skilled time served tradesman, who can incidentally be well read and knowledgeable about theatre, music (all genres) and literature."
I don't consider craftspeople and tradespeople of lesser intelligence or skill either.
and yes, they can be well read etc, but so can an artist or humanities graduate be practical as well as thoughtful.
Consider fashion designers, furniture makers, painters etc. they all have a dual identity in their skill as well as their artistic interpretation.
and as for writers - they comment, reflect and record our world and our perceptions of it.
They are just as essential as the builders. After all - when a building decays and falls, where is our record of it and its imapct on society if it is not documented creatively or factually?
how do we then learn about our past? we learn from the practical examples remaining and from the artistic records, interpretations of it.
you negatively represent or reduce humanities graduates to the "glitterati", but don't reduce tradespeople to "white van driving yobs"... potentially an alternative stereotype.
I'd rather not reduce either group to either - it's reductive studipity to make presumptions along those lines.
I think you know I was being both provocative and facetious and I tend to agree with you.
Apart from the 40 percent cuts, we now have the idea of food parcels for the poor and several of us noted a day or so ago that the poor are creating their own tent ghettos in America, under the vast pylons which support the sweeping freeways, on which the glittering cars of the relatively rich trundle unaware.
At the moment, as I keep saying, the government, the banks and the media are winning the propaganda war because all the news is now how the poor created the crisis and how they need to be taught a lesson.
For now, all I can see is to keep passing the word on and trying to counter this mindless propaganda, which will be spun and regurgitated thoughtlessly by the likes of CiF.
Montana - do you have any news on the tent-cities in America? Is it being reported there?
This government is so new it is still toppling on the wobbly feet of a toddler and could be pushed over before it learns the usual arrogant strutting of Blair or the steamroller waddling of Thatcher.
We missed our chance with the MPs' expenses scandal.
We missed our chance with the banks.
It is not a question of rioting in the streets, although that will surely come.
It is a question of not failing to do something because it did not seem quite perfect and in gleaming showroom condition, ready to roll out to adulation and gasps of amazement.
After all, we all know that governments generally simply do and hope that they do not blow up the entire universe in the process.
They do not wait until they are sure what they are doing is right or will not have bad outcomes.
Most of it is just mindless execution as the result of thoughtless posturing.
Atomboy 13.05 Agreed that changing one figure-head mob of politicians for another is out. They are all hopelessly lost for ideas that will solve the problem of bugger-all economic 'Growth'for years to come, if ever.(Except perhaps the Greens, but I know little about them .) So we have to make the existing lot in position (not 'power' ) react to demands from us. That is the alternative to a dystopian future for the mass of us. I think that's what you're implying ?
For now, all I can see is to keep passing the word on and trying to counter this mindless propaganda, which will be spun and regurgitated thoughtlessly by the likes of CiF.
does that mean spending more time on cif fighting our corner....ugh! horrible thought.
Know what you mean. Here in Paris, the temperature's down to a very pleasant 26°, the sun is shining and there's a light breeze, and I have about ten hours work or more to do today. Still, better than the 36° with 95% humidity the other day. Ghastly.
Heheh. There's no mistaking me for anything other than a native of perfidious Albion, is there? I can still discuss the weather for hours with the best of them.
@Sheff & Atom
Unfortunately for you, I think it's going to be a bit like the Blitz, you'll just have to do what you can until the next election as Osborne & Co. rain down a hail of antisocial measures on you. The Tories and Lib Dems obviously aren't interested in courting popularity and intend to implement a Murdoch manifesto across the board.
If only the English hadn't allowed Thatcher to castrate the unions and turn huge swathes of the population into greedy, selfish conservatives with a small or Capital c who deludely think they share the interests of the Establishment because their house is worth 200k.
In France, although things are by no means glorious, we still have unions worthy of the name and are capable of forcing the government to back-pedal from time to time. The mass reaction to Sarkozy's pension "reforms" in September should be interesting. I'm looking forward to taking to the streets.
and it's the rest of us that let them and voted for them...
Well we didn't have any choice did we? The voting system is rigged so that Oxbridge calls the shots regardless however anyone votes.
As for "all our greed", well, speak for yourself, I'm not taking responsiblity for the cretinous fuckwits who sold the working class down the river,stitched them up and hung them out to dry.
And just to rub the salt in, had the bloody nerve to tell them it was all their own fault.
These cunts make the Mafia look like the Salvation Army.
Spike--more and more noise about that 30mio cheque to the richest woman in France - le bouclier fiscal-- if I were the unions I'd get people out on that...but it's holiday time right now... a number of Sarko's own party would, DO agree.
In my younger days (said the old man, adjusting the blanket on his knees and leaning forward clutching his walking stick), a degree was a degree was a degree.
There were loads of personnel or production managers with a degree in History or Eng. Lit. A degree was simply considered a sign of educational attainment, rather than necessarily a vocational qualification. Then big business got its hands on education and now everything is geared to making money for it more efficiently.
From September, my republicdaughter plans to study photography. Good for her! I hope to help her do something she actually wants to do, rather than continue in human resources - studies her school forced her into and which don't interest her at all.
Well, that's good for making people angry, but to really get them striking, demonstrating and generally making life hell for Sarko, it's going to be pensions, something that affects everyone.
There's also plenty of scandal in that field, with ex-ministers getting huge pensions while continuing to do highly-paid jobs, even for the government (see the recent Christine Boutin affair).
Talking about degrees, I am trying to write an essay at the moment and it is going very slowly, can someone distract me from it by having a huge barney or posting something funny please.
Spike - OK. Gigantic pensions indeed. Ideally the unions would have counter-propositions ... which could be really interesting, but I don't know if they are up to it.
"Well we didn't have any choice did we? The voting system is rigged so that Oxbridge calls the shots regardless however anyone votes."
Oxbridge does not call the shots. You're empowering one institution way above its actual reach.
when i say our collective greed, i mean our materialism and focus on lifestyles developed from capitalist systems.
My awareness of social responsibility is something that did not arise from my working class upbringing, it's something I began to take an interest in as I grew older, and especially when I went to university.
when I talk about our collective greed, I mean our addictions to materialism. The original cause of the financial collapse was due to housing and borrowing. I think it's a vicious circle of people wanting what they can't afford and the market finding a solution in 5x salary mortgages, borrowing etc.
I'm not sure how you can absolve yourself of responsibility, unless you haven't bought into any of our cultural and social changes and developments. Do you own a house? have a loan? upgrade household technology regularly? upgrade your car even when it's not broken?
do you pester your MP, complain in a shop or against a service provider everytime they do something that is driven by profiteering over people?
I think we're all guilty and we're too passive.
and linking into SheffPixie and Atomboy's conversation, if we really do want to change it... it's probably time for more direct actions.
Yes, you harry and ridicule and undermine and show up the idiocies and hypocrisies any way you can.
It is more wearying to have to fight hundreds of skirmishes and unexpected small attacks than confront one monolithic enemy in one planned battle.
Sheff
I would have to leave that one up to each individual. I have said for a considerable time that I do not think CiF makes a tuppenny damn's worth of difference to anything whatsoever, but it does give people the illusion of doing something and an artificial feeling of belonging to something for those who need it.
Of course, it is highly unlikely that anyone who is not fellating the ideologies of CiF will long retain the freedom to post, but that is not what it is there for. It is a comfort-blanket.
Spike
If only the English hadn't allowed Thatcher to castrate the unions and turn huge swathes of the population into greedy, selfish conservatives with a small or Capital c who deludely think they share the interests of the Establishment because their house is worth 200k.
Quite.
It is always the poor who look down on the underclass, the Untermenschen who have been created by the media and their masters, as the bogeymen and scapegoats of all their miseries.
When they look up, all they see are sunny uplands occupied by wonderful picnicking people, siphoned from the sets of Brideshead and Gatsby and all they can think is: I want my life to be like theirs.
On eighteen thousand a year and a maxed credit card and screaming kids, yes, it could really be you.
Well Shef it means fighting our corner anywhere we can its the 'ones twos and threes argument.
Numbed I am not against higher education - in fact I am so for it that I think anyone who wants to should be able to study - even if they don't use it as a basis for a career. My dear father told me of a man in the welsh valleys who conducted the colliery choir. He was a miner and studied for a BMus. He did it so he could be a better choir conductor. He went back to mining afterwards.
So lets have people with degrees in literature who are also qualified plumbers, people whose education has in fact been academic and practical.
But that won't happen in yjis system - employers see education as just being there to 'qualify you for a job' Not so the individual can be a more rouded person.
Employers don't want to train anyone these days. Its not a university's job to train people for business(unless they are doing business studies) - that's the job of business. In my day graduates were employed because their degrees indicated they had been trained to THINK or had a body of knpwledge like Chemistry, they were then given short 'grasuate training courses'.
I don't know if this helps. For anyone whose French is good enough, this is absolutely hilarious. It's a group of French comedians called "Action Discrète" infiltrating one of Sarkozy's public debates on French identity.
I started doing my degree with the idea that it would help to get me out of the minimum wage bracket, my last job was a couple of quid above minimum wage but it wasn't likely to get any higher, it was one of those jobs that if you work lots of hours you could live fairly comfortably but didn't allow for many treats (although that might have been down to my inability to budget properly).
Of course I also wanted to do something that challenged me and felt worthwhile.
I don't think now it will do anything for my prospects, I am a bit too old to be considered for entry level jobs in the field I am interested in but I continue on just for the challenge.
I kind of wish I had a practical trade, I was a good sewing machinist but that trade is dead in Britain now plus it was damn hard work but all I can see in my future are service jobs (that is if I am employable at this point).
You could use that skill to make ends meet Jen. I paid 7.50 to have a pair of jeans taken up, a job I'm sure took 5-10 mins...
Did I mention my old man has been allowed home? He's back at my sisters. Thank you all for kind wishes, I mentioned it to him : ) It really has been a great help to my state of mind, love, and thanks to you all. P x
the criteria for incap are built around the ability to do 'any job' - so a patient with terminal cancer who can still stand, sit upright, lift arm above head or talk onthe phone is declared fit.
I get the impression the started point was to list all jobs and the minimal requirements - physical or mental- based on some artificial and imaginary scale built around bastardised ergonomics theory. I am looking into it and intend to stomp all over waddya until cif either investigate it or ban me.
If you can sit at a desk, lift your arms to don headphones and press computer keys you are fit for an 8 hour shift in a call centre - as long as your chair is ergonomically sound to guard against backache to protect employer from being sued under elfnsafety regs.
I am looking into it and intend to stomp all over waddya until cif either investigate it or ban me.
Good luck with that.
I don't imagine they will ban you. Just put you in pre-mod so you cannot actually post anything.
Was it Deano who suggested trying to get massed ranks of sympathetic voices to storm CiF in a concerted effort to shake their pedestal of complacency and delusion?
Is the clown who is Seaton still there, by the way?
Yeah, Jenn, can't you spread the news that you're available for sewing jobs?
I was looking around for someone to make me a cover for the head of my bed (I read in bed a lot, so once a year have to wash the huge padded head of the bed in the bath and dry it for days - a cover would be much more practical) and couldn't find anyone with a sewing machine and the requisite skills. I asked a shop and they told me a hundred quid or something.
And like turm, I'd happily pay a fiver to get trousers taken up.
Education used to be about understanding and thinking - this applied to uni and to trades.
Now it seems to geared towards employment in a particular field. This is a limiting factor in the philosophy of education and places a higher value on certain degrees.
When we have our UT community underwear will be in demand - long, warm and wooley for winter to save on heating bills with lacey frippery for what I will discreetly call certain situations. Can you come up with something imaginative for the men ?
We could provide you with a solar powered sewing machine.
I think i saw someone post the other day that their issue was that no employer would employ them on the bassis that they were only fit to work 50% of the time due to their illness/medical condition.
this is true of so many people on incap and especially problematic when their condition is unpredictable.
Some people I know with ME find they have fantastic days where they can do a whole range of different tasks, yet the following day they find themselves crippled with pain and utterly unable to even make a cup of tea.
The new reviews on incap will not take any of this into consideration and so many people will be at terrible risk as a result.
@ annetan
your last statement is mostly my POV as well.
@Jen
That's why I did my degree as well and it paid off. I did get the job I wanted and I also really challenged myself. I miss university greatly. In no other environment were my philosophies and ideas challenged so much.
@ Jen-maybe you could russle up a pair of bigpants for a certain Ms Bindel.And if she,s happy with them she may spread the word and you you could end up making them for all her gal pals.Could be a nice little earner!
Leni 15.05- it's the power of working as a team, keeping hitting them, maintain the pressure. There ain't even enough jobs for the completely fit, so **** them !
I had a fire about six years ago that basically left me with the pyjamas I went to bed in and a pair of boots I had left by the front door and I never got round to buying a new sewing machine.
What a shame it seems I might have made a bit of money making pants for political lesbians and right wing nutjobs.
Come across one which seems to relate to IDS idea of moving people around. Very technical economically (not my field as you know ) but quick glance suggests that depending upon index used geomobility in UK over period studied reduced income inequality by either 5% or 13%.
Something also on longitudinal mobility - generational- which would apply to areas such as my own where traditional jobs have gone leaving populations stranded.
I am becoming more convinced that we have to argue in terms of economics rather than politics. Economic theory not matched by social factors - such as affordable housing - is taking us towards the maelstrom.
Well i have heard that for those 'special moments' Bindel allegedly likes nothing more than to wear a pair of crutchless bigpants and a peep hole vest.
Princess-agree with Leni.Great post from you on waddya.
Leni-still haven,t had a reply from Bella about my post.Haven,t seen her respond to yours either.She and Jessica may argue that there has been the odd ATL blog about ATOS and these medicals.NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!The Guardian editorial stance has got to come out against them as well.And they need to get some high profile bods to go ATL about it.Like the Professor that Atomboy referred too the other day.
Leni 16.00-- hit 'em early, hit 'em hard. When they're really weak it's easy, others need work. Also have to nobble the MAM who finishes about 10AM, and discourage others from going down its blind alleys. A link to Gregg pls ? Cooler now, out to the jardin..
I have looked again at waddya. Post asking for someone with nous to post info on managed change and firm editorial stance against so much that is going on - well supported but no response from Bella - she dis return to answer posts about cif t-shirts. Some substantial posts in support.
I am now going to approach this from 'project planning' aspect.
Aims and objectives. Feedback responses. Refining approac. Redo.
We have spent so much time here and elsewhere looking for strategy - this will be mine. We have no leading media outlet leading the fight back.
Impotent anger nibbles away at the soul - action heals.
I've finished my essay, it is amazing what a fine piece of work you can produce whilst simultaneously surfing the net and watching the worst TV programme ever made (Stephen Kings The Tommyknockers) 50% here I come. ;)
re, the graduates issue. There was a good editorial on it, and the discussion about male grad unemployment on the Graun's front page.
Interesting comments on it.
As I have said countless times on Cif, I view universiites as being merely 'rites of passage' for young adults. I never had this process though, for various reasons, namely I had serious depression and low self esteem in my teenage years.
I find it terribly insulting that I am assumed to be less intelligent becuase I do not have a degree. I don't mean to brag but I read War and Peace when I was 17. I am absoluteley intersested in everything, arts, culture, the world around me. I did not go down the university route. I am doing universtiy modules now, which may lead to a degree, but it will take at least 3 years.
'Graduate jobs' should only be in those that have a requirement for it- sciences and technology.
I would suggest going over the heads of Ms Reed and her underling. They are far too far down the chain of command to be of any use. Try
alan.rusbridger@guardian.co.uk
He will be too grand to actually respond himself, but it might pop his little insulated bubble, polished and protected by the slack-jawed Seaton Gang.
If he is annoyed to have to receive - OK, yes, his secretary opens them for him - emails from the stupid huddled masses, it will mean he is more likely to think that his servants are not doing their jobs properly, even when one of them is his daughter.
Agree also with plans of action, Leni, otherwise it is like being trapped in a kaleidoscope with all the swirling, merging colours driving you demented. With loud music. And people shouting. And things that make you slip over. And a bad finger.
AB...it is like being trapped in a kaleidoscope with all the swirling, merging colours driving you demented. With loud music. And people shouting. And things that make you slip over.
My finger's OK, but otherwise, spot on..
Nap. I started my Degree (Applied Stationary. Napier Ed.) in 96 at 26, dropped out for two years, and finished 360 credits from a different course in 2004. It dosent matter what where and how, it's usualyy if you can put up with the bullshi hoopjumping demanded of you for 3/4 years you'll get a degree, increasingly worth little more than last weeks G2, i.e fishwrappers..
In response to you on waddya - don't want to say too much about self on waddya.
when I was first ill - at falling over stage and loss of feeling - I was very frightened. When told it was 'psychological' or attention seeking I became increasingly so. I then started to go deaf (Now have springs in ears to replace stapes) and became both frightened and depressed. Reached the point of hoping I had brain tumour or somesuch - something that could be cut out and taken away. Eventually I even 'knew' where it was - just behind left ear ! It was nonsense of course.
Depression is a horrible thing and does, as you say, have associated physical symptoms.
For what my opinion is worth I think your decision to study is the right one. How we perceive ourselves is very important. The values placed on us by others should not be allowed to dominate our lives but often they do - relegating many to the bottom of the pile quite undervedly.
There is cruelty in many which makes them delight in or dismiss the suffering of others. It enhances their own feelings of superiority. Without that most of them are nothing.
i overcame my fears - studied and have good and happy life. Still crawl up mountains and fall off things. Dignity retained by putting myself in perspective. Anger now reserved on behalf of others.
It does depend what the degree is in Turm, one of my sisters put herself through a degree in Ocupational Therapy.
Having read her notes and seen the assignments questions I really though it was the vaguest most nonsensical degree ever, she felt the same by the end of it, she was so frustrated and disillusioned by it.
Having said that, she got a 2:1 and although she never thought it would help her get a job she was snapped up by the first employers she applied to, she had three interviews in a week and got offered all of the jobs.
She is doing great now working with those with learning difficulties (and she gets paid ok as well).
Thank you for that post Leni, I have been at the stage that I actually wished I had some kind of terminal physical disease just so I could believe it wasn't all in my head.
I am still in the process of learning to deal with the hand I have got but I do sometimes see the end of the tunnel.
One day soon I will put this self blame behind me and learn to take life as it is, rather than how I think or wish it should be.
The nature of blaming the luckless for their own positions doesn't help but I finally poured my heart out to my sister last week about worrying about becoming homeless or ending up cleaning the streets and she smacked me round the head and told me she would never see that happen.
Nobody wants to be a scrounging weight around their families neck but it was such a relief to me to hear it said.
I do feel now that I can move on from the fear a bit.
jen - me,I'd rather you talked about something important ( such as your life ) than er football :)
Occupational Therapy covers a wide field and I had incredible help from OT's last year. So did Glamorganist and Wacobloke who squashed MAM flat on the subject.
Nothing wrong with Occupational Therapy Frog2 but the degree itself was pretty vague, I think it is one of those jobs that requires a lot of experience.
jennifera -- well maybe that Occupational Therapy degree was too theoretical, dunno, but here are wacobloke and glamorganist on the subject, picking the MAM up, wiping the floor with it, and then throwing it away. Wacobloke was lucky. I had all the physical stuff glamorganist describes, including the suicide risk that waco mentions in his more detailed description. I did all of that, beginning with struggling with toys for one-year olds. Managed to start my chainsaw after exactly 11 and a 1/2 months... important milestone for me !
Damn I just did a big post in reply to you frog but it has gone.
I will summarise (because I am lazy).
The posts from waco and glamorganist (and yourself) are very powerful and if my sister was left alone to just do her job she could be as good as the wonderful therapists you talk about.
Her job is to work with those with learning disabilities rather than strokes and heart attacks but her aim is the same, to enable people to live independent lives.
Sadly she has lately been forced to get her clients (what a shitty term) into work, it started before the election and it is only getting worse.
The two people taken on at the same time as her have been told that their contracts will not be renewed (great way to inspire them to do their best).
She is thinking of leaving the profession to train as a teacher because she can't live with the uncertainty of her employment (she has a daughter to look after) if the profession is scaring away people like her I dread to think of its future.
Montana - do you have any news on the tent-cities in America? Is it being reported there?
Well, there have been tent cities in several major US cities for more than a decade. How much news coverage they get on a local basis, I don't know. But nationally, no. I haven't heard anything about them for ages. The mainstream US media is currently obsessed with the Teabaggers and the Gulf disaster. Then there's Paris Hilton's possible drug arrest and Lady GaGa's new penchant for showing up at Major League Baseball games in her knickers and a shirt to cover. And that Dutch guy who has been accused of killing a couple of girls in Aruba. Oh, and did you know that Sandra Bullock and Jesse James got divorced?
Priorities, Atomboy. You've got your priorities all messed up. Who on Earth has time to care about the homeless when there are celebrities doing thing and furriners (allegedly) murdering nice, blonde American girls on tropical islands?
Leni 16.30 thanks for link. Rain tomorrow am here to the east, so hoeing the garden for it. Managed change a huge subject, sounds too big. Where ? JenAbout 2 hours on hands and knees weeding (mostly left-handed ..) the veg and a little digging, almost ready for the rain now. The last 10 m2 now, but with a machine.Will be easy peasy.Reply a little later...
I'm supposedly related to that Jesse James. Sandra's ex makes custom choppers and apparently has a thing for heavily tattooed women who like to dress up as Nazis.
Been pissing down rain all afternoon, here. No cook-outs and probably no fireworks for the folks of southwest Iowa, I'm afraid.
Oh, Christ but that Glover piece is bad,bad,bad.(Cheap)Talk of fairness, but not a mention of the insulated rich taking any kind of a hit, and lots of promulgation of the bullshit that all welfare recipients are fakers and fraudsters. Can anyone who's paid at that fucking paper write about welfare without yoking it to fraud (the levels of which are actually very,very low), and with any insight or knowledge (that excludes Polly)? It's dog-whistle writing, constantly drip-feeding the notion that being on welfare is connected to ripping others off, which it isn't. If you want shysters, and scammers look elsewhere to find their habitat: certain big City institutions, large corporate interests and their lobbies, Westminster wonks and metropolitan chatterati, leeching huge subsidies, bail-outs, funding for their pet white elephant think-tanks or vanity projects.
@Montana: apropos your recent spat with "Leopold1904" over on the "wadya" thread, there has always been a bit of "lost in translation" going on between dialogues across "the pond".
We share the same language but interpret it differently.
I lived in California for two years in the early 1980's and I only had to open my mouth before being treated like royalty!
Naturally I milked it for all it was worth and made a lot of friends teaching them cockney rhyming slang and different British dialects and accents.
They reciprocated by explaining to me how the American vernacular varied from State to State.
Incidentally, the most famous Iowan expat (as far as I am aware) on these shores is Bill Bryson who has decided to pitch up in North Yorkshire.
His book: "Notes From A Small Island" is hilarious.
One of the best from an outsider to analyse the mentality of the British and do it with a wit and understanding that wasn't patronizing.
A bit of "piss taking"? Well yes, we love a bit of "piss taking".
We are World beaters at taking the piss out of ourselves.
If "piss taking" was an Olympic sport we would win hands down!
When there are high levels of unemployment and a Conservative government, suicide rates are significantly higher - by 17% in the 1980s.
BBC article on suicide rates
given the rise in unemployment, added to the significant job cuts coming through as a result of the minimum 25% cuts to government funding, it wouldn't be too much of a reach to consider that this may happen again.
It was estimated that around 35,000 additional suicides took place whilst Margaret Thatcher was at the helm... how many do you think that might be now and in the next few years????"
will be waiting to see if this makes it onto the CiF articles list for next week... ho hum
I think you,re absolutely right.I think rising unemployment will lead to more suicides,more physical and mental health problems,more relationship breakdown,more crime and more social unrest.And of course when ATOS really get stuck into the sick and disabled that may well further fuel the numbers of people either attempting or succeeding in killing themselves.
I know it,s very depressing but i agree with Leni and others who believe the more we badger CIF about these issues the more chance there is that Guardian Towers will stand up and take notice.And if they don,t then at least we can say we tried.
@Alisdair: nowt to disagree with there. It makes me wonder I there isn't a government apparatchik , like "Winston Smith" re-writing history to fit in with the propaganda!
I don't usually go for personal abuse but Julian has a real slap-me face.
Had to say it here otherwise just might have insulted him on Cif. That would never do !
NUmbed
Which thread ?
One state alone in India has seen 10s of thousands of suicides from farmers as they have been swamped by debt leaving widows to cope with debt, land a families.
It is really quite depressing that many of the journalists on CIF don,t have a clue about real life.And here we are, this disparate on-line community, having to 'negotiate' with them to in effect take up our causes.Causes they should know about if they would only break out of their bubbles of privilege and face up to certain unpalatable realities.Something definitely ain,t right with that.But needs must i suppose.Nite all.
That Julian Glover thread is vile, but then again he is vile, I wonder how many photos they had to look through before they found that perfect looking down his nose pose.
And he approved it.
What a scumbag, soured yoghurt, I honestly feel like slapping him sensless.
@ Numbed: sorry for taking so long to respond to your earlier comments but I have spent the whole day concentrating on putting the final touches to my great work of fiction for the year ie my tax return.
So just to adress this: "do you own a car and have a mortgage on a house?"
Of course I do, what is the alternative?
As far as debt is concerned. I chopped my credit card in half over ten years ago and my debt is rather modest, or at least it should be if I wasn't getting turned over by the fuckwits who are holding me to ransom.
We are being sold the line that "Capitalism" is the only show in town.
I'm sorry but that doesn't wash.
If a car manufacturer said "this is the best we can up with and if you can't learn how to drive it it is your fault and the steering is a bit dodgy and the brakes don't work properly and the warning lights are useless and one wheel has fallen off but, hey it's your own fault for being so stupid to buy this crap product in the first place............as the Yanks say...."Go figure"!
There's some really nasty, insidious stuff in that Glover piece, although it takes the jeering commenters underneath to put it front and centre. If that smug twat ever had a soul, he's well and truly sold it.
Leni: trust you to call me to account for mixing my metaphors! Grrr.. I wish I could prove you wrong but I 'm too pissed to attempt it! I might have a go tommorrow!
Lest we forget, Glover is chief leader writer for the Graun. And civil partner of Matthew Parris, who was, last time I checked, a Tory.
What a crushing indictment that is of the post-1968 Left's obsession with identity politics. Let's give gays equal rights to be greedy sneering bastards.
Class interests, money, always mattered most. The Left lost sight of this thanks to the middle class wankers who hijacked the movement in the sixties. The Right never forgot this eternal truth, which is why neo-liberalism has won.
Rafael Behr, deputy editor of the Observer I think, reviews Chomsky's latest book in the Review section today. It's well worth reading if you want an indication of the poverty of "thought" in what passes for the liberal intelligentsia today.
No mixed metaphors? Well, if you really have a problem with your capitalist charabanc being holed below the waterline, it's your fault for driving it into a pond.
Forget the bankers, everyone, it's chekhov who's responsible for the breakdown of capitalism! :-)
@Leni - "Waddya is beginning to look like a rebellion."
I've just had a look and it seems like the same old shit tbh. I was particularly struck by hermione's egotistical little jizz about how the Yanks all loved him.
That just reinforced my prejudices about both hermione and the USA.
There are more comments there than usual complaining about Guardian - there are more protesting voices across the political threads . Not yet enough and they are not being responded to .
Obviously waddya is not the den of rebellios conspirators - musn't upset the cakestand.
I read the Behr thing. THe 'Truth to power' bit about chomsky always annoys me as Chomsky has denied this saying that power knows the truth. Chomsky is interested in discussion in search of the truth.
Waddya - not a rebellion but more questioning voices.
@Leni - Behr's review spoke volumes about the liberal mindset. A complacent middle class nonentity promoted far beyond his capabilities and without an original thought to his name gets all snippy and juvenile when confronted with a rational dissection of all that's wrong with the system that has given him so much.
A thousand-word critique which said nothing more than any dumbass acolyte of Glenn Beck - "Chomsky's a hypocrite because he's prospered under the capitalist system he's attacking".
Fuck me, this guy's a leading light on the Observer editorial staff.
Good morning/evening Montana,Just wanted to put up a link for BB.
ReplyDeletebeautifulburnout's comment 03 Jul 10, 4:11pm
Oh, the canadian police are renowned for being agents provocateurs at protests. I can't find it right now, but there is some superb footage of a very peaceful picket outside company, and a bunch of people with bandanas over their faces and rocks in their hands start to stir up the shit.
Police agents provocateurs in canada
I had lost it as well, to lightning, but found again with google . X
"I had lost it as well, to lightning, but found again with google . X"
ReplyDeleteHehehehehehe! ;-)
An exquisitely beautiful morning and I have to go to work - wot a bummer ;-(
ReplyDeleteLa Rit - I always liked going to work when nobody else was ... the almost empty roads, trains ...
ReplyDeleteRobert Pirsig lost his memory to ECT, and his 'googling' was the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance journey.
Morning all - daughter stayed around last night - work leaving do - (Partner also out drinking and needed a good night's sleep before work!).
ReplyDeleteCat a bit better actually nibbled some chopped chicken with jelled stock and has had a drink.
Took her upstairs last night and she got onto the window sill herself.
Got downstairs in the night and was asleep on my chair this morning.
Still very quiet though - will take her to the vet tomorrow if she hasn't got better. Local emergency vet charges £70 + !!
Have found a flat! its on the first floor but its in the same complex as the one I lost and its even more beautiful! bedroom is a bit smaller as the stairs (leading to own front door) take up some space. Has french windows and 'Juliette' balcony with enough room for a few pots.
Hope it all goes through this time!
Morning all!
ReplyDeleteFrog2 - thanks! I've bookmarked it now for future deployment :o)
Annetan - glad to hear the kitty is on the mend. Hope you manage to move successfully this time too. My sis was supposed to be moving house this weekend and is on the verge of bazooka-ing the solicitors' office I think...
LaRit - I heard a rumour that it was going to rain this afternoon anyway... ;o)
Montana - Happy 4th July! Hope you have a good day.
So its 40% cuts all round then! Wont be of course but then people will be relieved when its 'only' 20 or 30% won't they?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to quote from my own piece but we should not be surprised because as far back as the 1640's:-
This is the freedom that the bourgeois revolution seeks to attain, the freedom to exploit capital and the freedom of every individual to rise in society by their own efforts and not the privilege of birth. This was the motive for the civil war.
This was of course an advance but as we see below a limited one. In that sense "Liberalism" is limited as it represents real(ecconomic) freedom only for the capitalist class. Socialists demand that that freedom be expanded to all classes. Political freedom is not enough and is in the final analysis pointless without ecconomic freedom. As I said in my piece on the English Civil war.
The rank and file of the army soon recognised that the Freedom and Liberty that the capitalist farmer talked of meant unrestricted rights to exploit them.
To the merchant it meant the right to build his wealth on the labour of others and to the owners of property it meant passing laws to further protect their property.
To the common people it meant freedom from fear, insecurity and release from poverty.
To the artisan and petty tradesman, peasant or agricultural labourer it was freedom from those very freedoms demanded by the wealthy.
Recent events show that despite some gains in the last century real freedom or Liberty is still only for the rich and powerfu, this situation has remained essentially unchanged for nearly 400 years.
It is time for change!
Doh!!!! Powerfull !!!!
ReplyDelete17% of male graudates now unemployed, quite a shocking figure. Most of those people have paid £20k-£25k for a degree to find not only can they not get a graduate job, they cant even get *any* job.
ReplyDeleteLabours 50% graduate policy - sheer and utter madness.
annetan42 "it is time for change"...but how ?
ReplyDeleteIf say, you think the idea of a Basic Income is a good one for many reasons, you can't only work for that inside a Party( except Greens,Labour are terrified of anything radical ?) but go outside too.
Viral politics ? Off for a bit..
Yes, 40 per cent should mean that if it is not hurting it is not working.
ReplyDeleteStill, "we are all in this together", aren't we?
Well, maybe not, as this Telegraph shock-horror makes pretty clear:
The main hope for departments of avoiding the full extent of 40 per cent cutbacks is the summer-long drive by ministers to cut the welfare bill, currently running at £192billion a year.
Mr Osborne has already signalled that efforts to take more of those on incapacity benefit off welfare will form a significant part of plans to cut Britain's deficit, saying: "It's a choice we all face. It is not a choice we can duck."
As a start, ministers will reduce incapacity benefit paid to claimants if they are found capable of doing some work. Pilot studies have suggested half of those assessed could be taken off higher rates of benefit.
It also includes this lovely piece of - what shall we call it? - spin or propaganda or downright blatant lying:
A Treasury spokesman said: "We are determined to tackle the record budget deficit in order to keep rates lower for longer, protect jobs, and maintain the quality of essential public services.
"The Cabinet has been briefed on the planning assumptions that their departments should use for the initial phase of the spending review.
"These planning assumptions are not final settlements, and do not commit the Treasury or departments to final settlements.
"These assumptions will be negotiated so that we both tackle the deficit and support the freer, fairer and more responsible Britain we want to see."
As annetan42 says: It is time for change!
Yeah, not, though, on the gorgeous pages of CiF, apparently.
I thought I would dip a toe in the water over there and have a little paddle, what with the hot weather and all.
Well, Lordy me and lummie, cripes and flip! It seems that it is still just the same old swirling, discoloured place it always was, the area of the sewage outflow with the usual turds in the ascendancy, bobbing on the surface and softly plopping underneath the waves as the tides dictate.
CiF must have thought it would be perpetual Christmas, with the lovely LibDems it had backed and the kinder, gentler Tories in charge. Everyone hated New Labour, so they had to be, at last, backing a winner.
Except, of course, that just a few weeks into the new regime, it looks as if everyone is going to hate their new pals even more than clumsy old Gordon and slippery, sleek Mandelson.
I managed one post mildly critical of New Labour, one (I think) mildly critical of the new cult of pain and one mildly critical of the esteemed majesty of The Guardian.
No messing about with deletions any more, just straight into pre-mod.
What a bunch of useless, deluded and meretricious fuckwits compose CiF and all who wobblingly sail in her or cling to the wreckage and flotsam and jetsam which trails behind in her churning wake.
Things are going to get hairy and scary and it is not going to take too long.
Meanwhile, the Seaton Gang have their hands clasped over their ears and are ululating in their usual idiotic sequestered fairyland.
As Tony Blair had no idea of history beyond his own artificial Year Zero and was too thick to think anyone needed to plan for what might happen after his masturbatory Iraq War, so the Guardianistas and CiFerati imagine that nobody alive today could possibly remember the Thatcher years.
As Polly Toynbee said, recessions can be a lot of fun for the rich and actually bolster the bank balance.
Remember (and sing in bitter unison): We are all in this together.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSorry about that.
ReplyDeleteGoogle told me it could not post it, so I just got slap-happy with the keyboard.
Now my dustbin has disappeared, so I cannot delete the swarming replicants.
If anyone has admin privileges here, perhaps they could do the decent thing and cull about two-thirds of the above.
Nicely, though, please.
Just a quick shot to the back of the head. No bashing with wooden clubs with nails stuck through them.
Fuckin' Ada!
ReplyDeleteNow the dustbin comes back.
There is an old legend that if Google starts to break, it is the end of the world.
I'm off to dig my way into the old Anderson shelter, which I have been saving for just such an eventuality.
Jay - Yes the 50% graduate thing was madness! Its based on the idea that the way to solve 'inequality' is to give everyone an academic education - it isn't The way towards equality is to develop a mindset that gives equal status to the well trained craftsman. We still subscribe to the odd notion that you don't use your brains when working with your hands.
ReplyDeleteTBH I think someone who is a well trained plumber, carpenter, bricklayer etc is worth a hell of a lot more to society than someone with a degree in business stydies, media studies etc.Then there are all those Oxbridge English degrees - say no more!
Time for change - how?
First we have to build the consciousness of people - so that enough people see the necessity for change.
Then you can start talking. Doing anything before that is premature, will fail and cause disillusionment.
Ayomboy do you want two of those de;eted altogether or just 'deleted by author'?
Ah already been done!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone here think that they could explain the thought processes of MartynInEurope to me?
ReplyDeleteEdwin claimed on Waddaya that only 10% of Americans supported Britain in the early 40s and said that this was due to isolationism and America's hatred of Britain.
I spent well over an hour trying to find any sort of figures on American attitudes towards Britain prior to our entry into the war. Not an easy task, but I did find out that, as I suspected, the notion that only 10% of Americans supported Britain in the early 40s was codswollop, so I responded with what I'd found out.
MartynInEurope then posted this:
MontanaWildhack
3 Jul 2010, 10:49PM
Lot of crap written about anti this and anti that. In my home towns of Spain, including the very left-wing Cordoba, we welcome visitors (and people who want to live here) from the USA. , the fact they are usually liberals does help, but we are generally very nice to visitors and foreign residents (like me), no matter where they come from and what they think.
We don't hate people from the USA, we hate your governments policies and actions.This is somewhat different IMHO
Anyone want to take a stab at explaining how that has anything to do with what I'd said to Edwin?
Oh, and BB:
ReplyDeleteThanks. It may not surprise you, however, to learn that I don't exactly celebrate the day. Although, I do like fireworks.
Anne
ReplyDeleteFirst we have to build the consciousness of people - so that enough people see the necessity for change.
I think people are realising quite quickly just how bad things are and with this 40% malarky realise the government is preparing them for it. Deliberate scare tactics - threaten 40% cuts and HMG hopes everyone will heave sigh of relief when they end up being 25% or 30%
People I've been talking to aren't just worried - they're getting frightened now, for themselves obviously but also because of the chaos thats likely to ensue.
When you've got global players who have no interest in the UK speculating on whether we can pay our debt off and with the power to leave us in economic ruins by deciding we can't (see Greece), HMG will not tolerate too much, if any real dissent.
Unions will be calling for industrial action (rightly) but the fact is its unlikely to be coordinated action which will leave people exposed and will they want to take that kind of risk?
Can we bring this government down? And what do we want in it's place, I mean realistically? The return of the NuLabour apparatchicks? And if we did how would that affect our economy and our people?
annetan,
ReplyDeletewhy aren't humanities students worth more or equal to society than carpenters etc?
how do you define worth?
I agree that 50% of people attaining degrees is misguided - academic study is not necessarily professional preparation, where as apprenticeships, city and guilds etc are better routes through for some professions.
However, I'd argue strongly against your perception that an Oxbridge English degree is worthless, either in professional areas, industry or academia.
There are poor universities, poorly organised courses and poor lecturers in every university discipline, but that doesn't mean that this is solely confined to the Humanities.
I've worked with numerous employers (blue chip - start ups) and many of them complain that engineering and science graduates are ill-prepared for business environments and industry.
With all the cuts to universities, the quality across all areas is going to depreciate.
Surely we want great universities producing great thinkers and do-ers?
and surely we also want good, solid, practical courses and apprenticeships to cater for different people's interests and skills as well?
The two are not mutually exclusive - some universities support apprenticeship programmes, sandwich year placements etc, and give accreditation to HND/HNC qualifications.
In reciprocation, the companies training up people on apprenticeships are also staffed with graduates across industry, using their different skill sets to make their contribution.
it gets very tedious hearing the constant let's bash the humanities argument, when actually it would prove far more beneficial to society to support across all the subject areas and highlight failings in them in order to improve them not to dismantle them.
Sheff
ReplyDeleteCan we bring this government down? And what do we want in it's place, I mean realistically? The return of the NuLabour apparatchicks? And if we did how would that affect our economy and our people?
I would be a bit careful of this line of thought.
It is a bit like saying: My old Hillman Minx, which I bought twentieth-hand thirty years ago seems to have spluttered its last oily gasp. What shall I do? I had always set my heart on replacing it with a Bugatti Veyron, so I suppose I shall just have to keep saving my usual £5 per week and hope that I live for a thousand years and they are still making my dream car and inflation does not wipe out my devious and cunning plan.
There are ways of ameliorating or changing events without actually having a shiny, loved-by-all replacement ready to pounce at a moment's notice.
Numbed
Education wants to become a process whereby businesses offload the cost of training onto the state in order to reap more lovely profits when the appropriately qualified applicants come cap-in-hand for a job.
As for targets of 50% - this is grossly unfair! What about the other poor 50%? Why can't they clutch and cuddle a degree like everyone else? Why cannot burger-flippers have appropriate degrees, so that we can all be equal?
After all, everyone wants to be just the same as everyone else, don't they?
What was the point of someone writing Brave New World if it was never going to come true?
Numbed - I didn't say those degrees were worthless they aren't. Any civilised society needs the arts.
ReplyDeleteBut I do not consider them necessaeily a) more intelligent or b) superior to someone who is a skilled time served tradesman, who can incidentally be well read and knowledgeable about theatre, music (all genres) and literature.
But we can survive without the 'glitterati' but without time served (i.e. fully trained) tradesmen we would all be living in tents (even then we would need tent makers!).
I would just like the status of trades to commensurate with their usefulness and I would like the idea that such people are thick to be abolished for the insulting crap it is.
Atomboy.
ReplyDeleteI'd agree with your first statement about the conflicts between what industry wants from degree educated staff and what universities/students want from the process.
I don't think all degrees should be considered industry training, but I also don't think that that degrees should be divorced from the reality of industry and employment.
A balance must be sought, but it's woefully inadequate at present.
The compulsory career development module at universities is ridiculous - covering only very basic things like how to write a CV, which most undergraduates should already have experience of prior to university.
During my course, I was also given the familiar talk about how I could expect an average starting salary post-uni of £20,000 - which given the current climate couldn't be further from the truth!
As for your burger flippers... they have qualifications I don't:
Food Handling, Hygiene, Manual Handling, COSHH etc and there are a raft of further qualifications in catering and cookery available as well. I believe that Costa and a few other coffee chains offer Barista training as well.
I don't think degrees are for everyone.
What should be available is a combination of academic led study, practical skills and industry specific training.
well, who should pay for it? that's the difficult balance.
There are ways of ameliorating or changing events without actually having a shiny, loved-by-all replacement ready to pounce at a moment's notice.
ReplyDeleteFair enough Atomboy, I take your point. But its not a 'shiny, loved by all etc" change I'm looking for - something much more realistic than that. But what? And how? The present gov's cure looks like it may well kill the patient and it'll be a long and painful death.
All I and others I know have at the moment are a lot of questions and to be honest, apart from thoughts of resistance, attempts at finding realistic and practical solutions seem pretty thin on the ground.
@annetan
ReplyDelete"But I do not consider them necessaeily a) more intelligent or b) superior to someone who is a skilled time served tradesman, who can incidentally be well read and knowledgeable about theatre, music (all genres) and literature."
I don't consider craftspeople and tradespeople of lesser intelligence or skill either.
and yes, they can be well read etc, but so can an artist or humanities graduate be practical as well as thoughtful.
Consider fashion designers, furniture makers, painters etc. they all have a dual identity in their skill as well as their artistic interpretation.
and as for writers - they comment, reflect and record our world and our perceptions of it.
They are just as essential as the builders. After all - when a building decays and falls, where is our record of it and its imapct on society if it is not documented creatively or factually?
how do we then learn about our past? we learn from the practical examples remaining and from the artistic records, interpretations of it.
you negatively represent or reduce humanities graduates to the "glitterati", but don't reduce tradespeople to "white van driving yobs"... potentially an alternative stereotype.
I'd rather not reduce either group to either - it's reductive studipity to make presumptions along those lines.
We need all of these people in society.
It's mainly, supposedly intelligent, Oxbridge graduates who got us into this mess in the first place.
ReplyDeleteThey are the people who occupy all the prime positions of influence, be they in Westminster or the media.
On a practical level, the more people know how the police can operate the better . BB found this better link than the one at top of page -- CBC NEWS Ottawa -- on police 'agents provocateurs'
ReplyDeleteAre a great number of people who go on demonstrations still unaware of this er possibility ?
Sheff
ReplyDeleteI think you know I was being both provocative and facetious and I tend to agree with you.
Apart from the 40 percent cuts, we now have the idea of food parcels for the poor and several of us noted a day or so ago that the poor are creating their own tent ghettos in America, under the vast pylons which support the sweeping freeways, on which the glittering cars of the relatively rich trundle unaware.
At the moment, as I keep saying, the government, the banks and the media are winning the propaganda war because all the news is now how the poor created the crisis and how they need to be taught a lesson.
For now, all I can see is to keep passing the word on and trying to counter this mindless propaganda, which will be spun and regurgitated thoughtlessly by the likes of CiF.
Montana - do you have any news on the tent-cities in America? Is it being reported there?
This government is so new it is still toppling on the wobbly feet of a toddler and could be pushed over before it learns the usual arrogant strutting of Blair or the steamroller waddling of Thatcher.
We missed our chance with the MPs' expenses scandal.
We missed our chance with the banks.
It is not a question of rioting in the streets, although that will surely come.
It is a question of not failing to do something because it did not seem quite perfect and in gleaming showroom condition, ready to roll out to adulation and gasps of amazement.
After all, we all know that governments generally simply do and hope that they do not blow up the entire universe in the process.
They do not wait until they are sure what they are doing is right or will not have bad outcomes.
Most of it is just mindless execution as the result of thoughtless posturing.
@chekhov
ReplyDelete"It's mainly, supposedly intelligent, Oxbridge graduates who got us into this mess in the first place."
and it's the rest of us that let them and voted for them...
a person is not the place they graduated from - they are the product of their environment, their upbringing and their experience.
our collective greed is what got all of us into this particular mess.
Atomboy 13.05
ReplyDeleteAgreed that changing one figure-head mob of politicians for another is out. They are all hopelessly lost for ideas that will solve the problem of bugger-all economic 'Growth'for years to come, if ever.(Except perhaps the Greens, but I know little about them .)
So we have to make the existing lot in position (not 'power' ) react to demands from us.
That is the alternative to a dystopian future for the mass of us.
I think that's what you're implying ?
Atomboy
ReplyDeleteFor now, all I can see is to keep passing the word on and trying to counter this mindless propaganda, which will be spun and regurgitated thoughtlessly by the likes of CiF.
does that mean spending more time on cif fighting our corner....ugh! horrible thought.
Sheffpixie I'm seeing more newcomers there who are worth talking to.
ReplyDelete@La Rit
ReplyDeleteKnow what you mean. Here in Paris, the temperature's down to a very pleasant 26°, the sun is shining and there's a light breeze, and I have about ten hours work or more to do today. Still, better than the 36° with 95% humidity the other day. Ghastly.
Heheh. There's no mistaking me for anything other than a native of perfidious Albion, is there? I can still discuss the weather for hours with the best of them.
@Sheff & Atom
Unfortunately for you, I think it's going to be a bit like the Blitz, you'll just have to do what you can until the next election as Osborne & Co. rain down a hail of antisocial measures on you. The Tories and Lib Dems obviously aren't interested in courting popularity and intend to implement a Murdoch manifesto across the board.
If only the English hadn't allowed Thatcher to castrate the unions and turn huge swathes of the population into greedy, selfish conservatives with a small or Capital c who deludely think they share the interests of the Establishment because their house is worth 200k.
In France, although things are by no means glorious, we still have unions worthy of the name and are capable of forcing the government to back-pedal from time to time. The mass reaction to Sarkozy's pension "reforms" in September should be interesting. I'm looking forward to taking to the streets.
and it's the rest of us that let them and voted for them...
ReplyDeleteWell we didn't have any choice did we? The voting system is rigged so that Oxbridge calls the shots regardless however anyone votes.
As for "all our greed", well, speak for yourself, I'm not taking responsiblity for the cretinous fuckwits who sold the working class down the river,stitched them up and hung them out to dry.
And just to rub the salt in, had the bloody nerve to tell them it was all their own fault.
These cunts make the Mafia look like the Salvation Army.
Spike--more and more noise about that 30mio cheque to the richest woman in France - le bouclier fiscal-- if I were the unions I'd get people out on that...but it's holiday time right now...
ReplyDeletea number of Sarko's own party would, DO agree.
In my younger days (said the old man, adjusting the blanket on his knees and leaning forward clutching his walking stick), a degree was a degree was a degree.
ReplyDeleteThere were loads of personnel or production managers with a degree in History or Eng. Lit. A degree was simply considered a sign of educational attainment, rather than necessarily a vocational qualification. Then big business got its hands on education and now everything is geared to making money for it more efficiently.
From September, my republicdaughter plans to study photography. Good for her! I hope to help her do something she actually wants to do, rather than continue in human resources - studies her school forced her into and which don't interest her at all.
@frog2
ReplyDeleteWell, that's good for making people angry, but to really get them striking, demonstrating and generally making life hell for Sarko, it's going to be pensions, something that affects everyone.
There's also plenty of scandal in that field, with ex-ministers getting huge pensions while continuing to do highly-paid jobs, even for the government (see the recent Christine Boutin affair).
Talking about degrees, I am trying to write an essay at the moment and it is going very slowly, can someone distract me from it by having a huge barney or posting something funny please.
ReplyDeleteSpike - OK. Gigantic pensions indeed. Ideally the unions would have counter-propositions ... which could be really interesting, but I don't know if they are up to it.
ReplyDelete@chekhov
ReplyDelete"Well we didn't have any choice did we? The voting system is rigged so that Oxbridge calls the shots regardless however anyone votes."
Oxbridge does not call the shots. You're empowering one institution way above its actual reach.
when i say our collective greed, i mean our materialism and focus on lifestyles developed from capitalist systems.
My awareness of social responsibility is something that did not arise from my working class upbringing, it's something I began to take an interest in as I grew older, and especially when I went to university.
when I talk about our collective greed, I mean our addictions to materialism. The original cause of the financial collapse was due to housing and borrowing. I think it's a vicious circle of people wanting what they can't afford and the market finding a solution in 5x salary mortgages, borrowing etc.
I'm not sure how you can absolve yourself of responsibility, unless you haven't bought into any of our cultural and social changes and developments. Do you own a house? have a loan? upgrade household technology regularly? upgrade your car even when it's not broken?
do you pester your MP, complain in a shop or against a service provider everytime they do something that is driven by profiteering over people?
I think we're all guilty and we're too passive.
and linking into SheffPixie and Atomboy's conversation, if we really do want to change it... it's probably time for more direct actions.
@Montana
ReplyDeleteHaving looked at the Whaddya thread, I think Martyn was actually agreeing with you in his first sentence.
frog2
ReplyDeleteYes, you harry and ridicule and undermine and show up the idiocies and hypocrisies any way you can.
It is more wearying to have to fight hundreds of skirmishes and unexpected small attacks than confront one monolithic enemy in one planned battle.
Sheff
I would have to leave that one up to each individual. I have said for a considerable time that I do not think CiF makes a tuppenny damn's worth of difference to anything whatsoever, but it does give people the illusion of doing something and an artificial feeling of belonging to something for those who need it.
Of course, it is highly unlikely that anyone who is not fellating the ideologies of CiF will long retain the freedom to post, but that is not what it is there for. It is a comfort-blanket.
Spike
If only the English hadn't allowed Thatcher to castrate the unions and turn huge swathes of the population into greedy, selfish conservatives with a small or Capital c who deludely think they share the interests of the Establishment because their house is worth 200k.
Quite.
It is always the poor who look down on the underclass, the Untermenschen who have been created by the media and their masters, as the bogeymen and scapegoats of all their miseries.
When they look up, all they see are sunny uplands occupied by wonderful picnicking people, siphoned from the sets of Brideshead and Gatsby and all they can think is: I want my life to be like theirs.
On eighteen thousand a year and a maxed credit card and screaming kids, yes, it could really be you.
Well Shef it means fighting our corner anywhere we can its the 'ones twos and threes argument.
ReplyDeleteNumbed I am not against higher education - in fact I am so for it that I think anyone who wants to should be able to study - even if they don't use it as a basis for a career. My dear father told me of a man in the welsh valleys who conducted the colliery choir. He was a miner and studied for a BMus. He did it so he could be a better choir conductor. He went back to mining afterwards.
So lets have people with degrees in literature who are also qualified plumbers, people whose education has in fact been academic and practical.
But that won't happen in yjis system - employers see education as just being there to 'qualify you for a job' Not so the individual can be a more rouded person.
Employers don't want to train anyone these days. Its not a university's job to train people for business(unless they are doing business studies) - that's the job of business. In my day graduates were employed because their degrees indicated they had been trained to THINK or had a body of knpwledge like Chemistry, they were then given short 'grasuate training courses'.
Not any more it seems.
@Jenn
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this helps. For anyone whose French is good enough, this is absolutely hilarious. It's a group of French comedians called "Action Discrète" infiltrating one of Sarkozy's public debates on French identity.
@anne
ReplyDeleteExactly.
I started doing my degree with the idea that it would help to get me out of the minimum wage bracket, my last job was a couple of quid above minimum wage but it wasn't likely to get any higher, it was one of those jobs that if you work lots of hours you could live fairly comfortably but didn't allow for many treats (although that might have been down to my inability to budget properly).
ReplyDeleteOf course I also wanted to do something that challenged me and felt worthwhile.
I don't think now it will do anything for my prospects, I am a bit too old to be considered for entry level jobs in the field I am interested in but I continue on just for the challenge.
I kind of wish I had a practical trade, I was a good sewing machinist but that trade is dead in Britain now plus it was damn hard work but all I can see in my future are service jobs (that is if I am employable at this point).
Of course if the Untrusted commune ever comes about I will be able to pay my way by making everyone nice underwear. ;)
ReplyDeleteYou could use that skill to make ends meet Jen. I paid 7.50 to have a pair of jeans taken up, a job I'm sure took 5-10 mins...
ReplyDeleteDid I mention my old man has been allowed home? He's back at my sisters. Thank you all for kind wishes, I mentioned it to him : ) It really has been a great help to my state of mind, love, and thanks to you all. P x
That's great news Turm I hope he continues to get better. x
ReplyDeleteFrog
ReplyDeleteThanks for support on waddya.
the criteria for incap are built around the ability to do 'any job' - so a patient with terminal cancer who can still stand, sit upright, lift arm above head or talk onthe phone is declared fit.
I get the impression the started point was to list all jobs and the minimal requirements - physical or mental- based on some artificial and imaginary scale built around bastardised ergonomics theory. I am looking into it and intend to stomp all over waddya until cif either investigate it or ban me.
If you can sit at a desk, lift your arms to don headphones and press computer keys you are fit for an 8 hour shift in a call centre - as long as your chair is ergonomically sound to guard against backache to protect employer from being sued under elfnsafety regs.
turminder-- great news XXXX
ReplyDeleteSpike- link forwarded .
Xuss
ReplyDeleteGood news about your dad. x
Leni
ReplyDeleteI am looking into it and intend to stomp all over waddya until cif either investigate it or ban me.
Good luck with that.
I don't imagine they will ban you. Just put you in pre-mod so you cannot actually post anything.
Was it Deano who suggested trying to get massed ranks of sympathetic voices to storm CiF in a concerted effort to shake their pedestal of complacency and delusion?
Is the clown who is Seaton still there, by the way?
Yeah, Jenn, can't you spread the news that you're available for sewing jobs?
ReplyDeleteI was looking around for someone to make me a cover for the head of my bed (I read in bed a lot, so once a year have to wash the huge padded head of the bed in the bath and dry it for days - a cover would be much more practical) and couldn't find anyone with a sewing machine and the requisite skills. I asked a shop and they told me a hundred quid or something.
And like turm, I'd happily pay a fiver to get trousers taken up.
Oops! Good for you Turminder.
ReplyDeleteJenni
ReplyDeleteEducation used to be about understanding and thinking - this applied to uni and to trades.
Now it seems to geared towards employment in a particular field. This is a limiting factor in the philosophy of education and places a higher value on certain degrees.
When we have our UT community underwear will be in demand - long, warm and wooley for winter to save on heating bills with lacey frippery for what I will discreetly call certain situations. Can you come up with something imaginative for the men ?
We could provide you with a solar powered sewing machine.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteI fully agree with you on incap.
I think i saw someone post the other day that their issue was that no employer would employ them on the bassis that they were only fit to work 50% of the time due to their illness/medical condition.
this is true of so many people on incap and especially problematic when their condition is unpredictable.
Some people I know with ME find they have fantastic days where they can do a whole range of different tasks, yet the following day they find themselves crippled with pain and utterly unable to even make a cup of tea.
The new reviews on incap will not take any of this into consideration and so many people will be at terrible risk as a result.
@ annetan
your last statement is mostly my POV as well.
@Jen
That's why I did my degree as well and it paid off. I did get the job I wanted and I also really challenged myself. I miss university greatly. In no other environment were my philosophies and ideas challenged so much.
Afternoon all
ReplyDelete@Montana-have a nice day anyway x
@Turminder-glad your dad is on the mend.
@ Jen-maybe you could russle up a pair of bigpants for a certain Ms Bindel.And if she,s happy with them she may spread the word and you you could end up making them for all her gal pals.Could be a nice little earner!
Leni 15.05- it's the power of working as a team, keeping hitting them, maintain the pressure. There ain't even enough jobs for the completely fit, so **** them !
ReplyDelete@turm
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear about your dad.
@jenn
How about a really big pair of knickers for Mel Philips that fasten over the mouth?
I had a fire about six years ago that basically left me with the pyjamas I went to bed in and a pair of boots I had left by the front door and I never got round to buying a new sewing machine.
ReplyDeleteWhat a shame it seems I might have made a bit of money making pants for political lesbians and right wing nutjobs.
Spike
ReplyDeleteI shall in future when someone spouts nonesense think of them as 'speaking into their knickers'.
PrincessCC excellent post on ME at WADDYA 1.49. No reply to my 8.17 seconding Leni. bifn !
ReplyDeleteFrog
ReplyDeleteI am looking at Gregg's published papers.
Come across one which seems to relate to IDS idea of moving people around. Very technical economically (not my field as you know ) but quick glance suggests that depending upon index used geomobility in UK over period studied reduced income inequality by either 5% or 13%.
Something also on longitudinal mobility - generational- which would apply to areas such as my own where traditional jobs have gone leaving populations stranded.
I am becoming more convinced that we have to argue in terms of economics rather than politics. Economic theory not matched by social factors - such as affordable housing - is taking us towards the maelstrom.
I have steep learning curve ahead here .
Jen
ReplyDeleteWell i have heard that for those 'special moments' Bindel allegedly likes nothing more than to wear a pair of crutchless bigpants and a peep hole vest.
Princess
ReplyDeletegreat post on waddya.
We need more 'putting things in perspective' on Cif - more facts, more honesty.
Had a look at some waddya threads.
Serious posts and questions need to go up at beginning of thread - more likely to be responded to before the chatter gets going.
Also gives opportunity to remind Jess or Bella that we await answers.
Team effort may well pay dividends .
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePrincess-agree with Leni.Great post from you on waddya.
ReplyDeleteLeni-still haven,t had a reply from Bella about my post.Haven,t seen her respond to yours either.She and Jessica may argue that there has been the odd ATL blog about ATOS and these medicals.NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!The Guardian editorial stance has got to come out against them as well.And they need to get some high profile bods to go ATL about it.Like the Professor that Atomboy referred too the other day.
Leni 16.00-- hit 'em early, hit 'em hard. When they're really weak it's easy, others need work. Also have to nobble the MAM who finishes about 10AM, and discourage others from going down its blind alleys.
ReplyDeleteA link to Gregg pls ?
Cooler now, out to the jardin..
Paul
ReplyDeleteI asked yesterday for article from Gregg - no response from Cif.
Frog
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2008/wp206.pdf
i googled "Prof Paul Gregg" . He is Bristol Uni.
My jardin is cold wet and windy today. Those to the east of me - it's on its way.
Paul
ReplyDeleteI have looked again at waddya. Post asking for someone with nous to post info on managed change and firm editorial stance against so much that is going on - well supported but no response from Bella - she dis return to answer posts about cif t-shirts.
Some substantial posts in support.
I am now going to approach this from 'project planning' aspect.
Aims and objectives.
Feedback responses.
Refining approac.
Redo.
We have spent so much time here and elsewhere looking for strategy - this will be mine. We have no leading media outlet leading the fight back.
Impotent anger nibbles away at the soul - action heals.
Paul
ReplyDeleteEwww that is nasty. ;)
I've finished my essay, it is amazing what a fine piece of work you can produce whilst simultaneously surfing the net and watching the worst TV programme ever made (Stephen Kings The Tommyknockers) 50% here I come. ;)
@Jenn
ReplyDeleteThe book was good, though.
What action are you thinking of Leni or is it still at the planning stage, I am not being sarky I would actually really welcome some guidance here.
ReplyDeleteI do want to make some kind of difference but I am stuck, I really don't know where to start.
Not one of my faves Spike but the programme is awesomely bad, it is well worth watching.
ReplyDeleteKing is very variable i find.. Just finished 'on writing' very good, as it goes...
ReplyDeleteGood day, happy independance day Montana.
ReplyDeletere, the graduates issue.
There was a good editorial on it, and the discussion about male grad unemployment on the Graun's front page.
Interesting comments on it.
As I have said countless times on Cif, I view universiites as being merely 'rites of passage' for young adults. I never had this process though, for various reasons, namely I had serious depression and low self esteem in my teenage years.
I find it terribly insulting that I am assumed to be less intelligent becuase I do not have a degree. I don't mean to brag but I read War and Peace when I was 17. I am absoluteley intersested in everything, arts, culture, the world around me. I did not go down the university route. I am doing universtiy modules now, which may lead to a degree, but it will take at least 3 years.
'Graduate jobs' should only be in those that have a requirement for it- sciences and technology.
Leni, Paul and others
ReplyDeleteI would suggest going over the heads of Ms Reed and her underling. They are far too far down the chain of command to be of any use. Try
alan.rusbridger@guardian.co.uk
He will be too grand to actually respond himself, but it might pop his little insulated bubble, polished and protected by the slack-jawed Seaton Gang.
If he is annoyed to have to receive - OK, yes, his secretary opens them for him - emails from the stupid huddled masses, it will mean he is more likely to think that his servants are not doing their jobs properly, even when one of them is his daughter.
Agree also with plans of action, Leni, otherwise it is like being trapped in a kaleidoscope with all the swirling, merging colours driving you demented. With loud music. And people shouting. And things that make you slip over. And a bad finger.
Some of that might just be me, though.
Are you having a bad day Atomboy?
ReplyDeleteAB...it is like being trapped in a kaleidoscope with all the swirling, merging colours driving you demented. With loud music. And people shouting. And things that make you slip over.
ReplyDeleteMy finger's OK, but otherwise, spot on..
Nap. I started my Degree (Applied Stationary. Napier Ed.) in 96 at 26, dropped out for two years, and finished 360 credits from a different course in 2004. It dosent matter what where and how, it's usualyy if you can put up with the bullshi hoopjumping demanded of you for 3/4 years you'll get a degree, increasingly worth little more than last weeks G2, i.e fishwrappers..
Hi Jenni
ReplyDeleteIn response to you on waddya - don't want to say too much about self on waddya.
when I was first ill - at falling over stage and loss of feeling - I was very frightened. When told it was 'psychological' or attention seeking I became increasingly so. I then started to go deaf (Now have springs in ears to replace stapes) and became both frightened and depressed. Reached the point of hoping I had brain tumour or somesuch - something that could be cut out and taken away. Eventually I even 'knew' where it was - just behind left ear ! It was nonsense of course.
Depression is a horrible thing and does, as you say, have associated physical symptoms.
For what my opinion is worth I think your decision to study is the right one. How we perceive ourselves is very important. The values placed on us by others should not be allowed to dominate our lives but often they do - relegating many to the bottom of the pile quite undervedly.
There is cruelty in many which makes them delight in or dismiss the suffering of others. It enhances their own feelings of superiority. Without that most of them are nothing.
i overcame my fears - studied and have good and happy life. Still crawl up mountains and fall off things. Dignity retained by putting myself in perspective. Anger now reserved on behalf of others.
It does depend what the degree is in Turm, one of my sisters put herself through a degree in Ocupational Therapy.
ReplyDeleteHaving read her notes and seen the assignments questions I really though it was the vaguest most nonsensical degree ever, she felt the same by the end of it, she was so frustrated and disillusioned by it.
Having said that, she got a 2:1 and although she never thought it would help her get a job she was snapped up by the first employers she applied to, she had three interviews in a week and got offered all of the jobs.
She is doing great now working with those with learning difficulties (and she gets paid ok as well).
Jen, Nap, Turm
ReplyDeleteWill revise judgement on how I feel after we get back from seeing 3-D Shrek.
This could turn nasty.
Laters, as Shrek is probably too cool to say...
Thank you for that post Leni, I have been at the stage that I actually wished I had some kind of terminal physical disease just so I could believe it wasn't all in my head.
ReplyDeleteI am still in the process of learning to deal with the hand I have got but I do sometimes see the end of the tunnel.
One day soon I will put this self blame behind me and learn to take life as it is, rather than how I think or wish it should be.
The nature of blaming the luckless for their own positions doesn't help but I finally poured my heart out to my sister last week about worrying about becoming homeless or ending up cleaning the streets and she smacked me round the head and told me she would never see that happen.
Nobody wants to be a scrounging weight around their families neck but it was such a relief to me to hear it said.
I do feel now that I can move on from the fear a bit.
Atomboy
ReplyDelete3D films are a waste of time (yes I saw Avatar) but since Shrek is fairly good natured it might be ok.
Sorry about that big blah of a post earlier, I don't know what is going on lately but I am all emotional and I will tell my life story to anyone.
ReplyDeleteI blame my medication.
Napoleon
ReplyDeleteBe careful of any femme fatales at this Russian Centre you attend.We don,t want to hear you,ve fallen for a member of a major spy ring:-)
jen - me,I'd rather you talked about something important ( such as your life ) than er football :)
ReplyDeleteOccupational Therapy covers a wide field and I had incredible help from OT's last year. So did Glamorganist and Wacobloke who squashed MAM flat on the subject.
Come on Paul it would give him a Cif article to really brag about. ;)
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with Occupational Therapy Frog2 but the degree itself was pretty vague, I think it is one of those jobs that requires a lot of experience.
ReplyDeletejennifera -- well maybe that Occupational Therapy degree was too theoretical, dunno, but here are wacobloke and glamorganist on the subject, picking the MAM up, wiping the floor with it, and then throwing it away.
ReplyDeleteWacobloke was lucky. I had all the physical stuff glamorganist describes, including the suicide risk that waco mentions in his more detailed description. I did all of that, beginning with struggling with toys for one-year olds. Managed to start my chainsaw after exactly 11 and a 1/2 months... important milestone for me !
Damn I just did a big post in reply to you frog but it has gone.
ReplyDeleteI will summarise (because I am lazy).
The posts from waco and glamorganist (and yourself) are very powerful and if my sister was left alone to just do her job she could be as good as the wonderful therapists you talk about.
Her job is to work with those with learning disabilities rather than strokes and heart attacks but her aim is the same, to enable people to live independent lives.
Sadly she has lately been forced to get her clients (what a shitty term) into work, it started before the election and it is only getting worse.
The two people taken on at the same time as her have been told that their contracts will not be renewed (great way to inspire them to do their best).
She is thinking of leaving the profession to train as a teacher because she can't live with the uncertainty of her employment (she has a daughter to look after) if the profession is scaring away people like her I dread to think of its future.
Oh and frog2 I am so glad you are on your way back, it can take a long time but you are proof that it is worth it. x
ReplyDeleteAtomboy:
ReplyDeleteMontana - do you have any news on the tent-cities in America? Is it being reported there?
Well, there have been tent cities in several major US cities for more than a decade. How much news coverage they get on a local basis, I don't know. But nationally, no. I haven't heard anything about them for ages. The mainstream US media is currently obsessed with the Teabaggers and the Gulf disaster. Then there's Paris Hilton's possible drug arrest and Lady GaGa's new penchant for showing up at Major League Baseball games in her knickers and a shirt to cover. And that Dutch guy who has been accused of killing a couple of girls in Aruba. Oh, and did you know that Sandra Bullock and Jesse James got divorced?
Priorities, Atomboy. You've got your priorities all messed up. Who on Earth has time to care about the homeless when there are celebrities doing thing and furriners (allegedly) murdering nice, blonde American girls on tropical islands?
I thought Jesse James got shot, must be in the wrong century. As usual !)
ReplyDeleteLeni 16.30 thanks for link. Rain tomorrow am here to the east, so hoeing the garden for it. Managed change a huge subject, sounds too big. Where ?
ReplyDeleteJenAbout 2 hours on hands and knees weeding (mostly left-handed ..) the veg and a little digging, almost ready for the rain now. The last 10 m2 now, but with a machine.Will be easy peasy.Reply a little later...
@Atomboy:
ReplyDeleteReport from the National Coalition for the Homeless on tent cities on the West Coast.
@:
I'm supposedly related to that Jesse James. Sandra's ex makes custom choppers and apparently has a thing for heavily tattooed women who like to dress up as Nazis.
Been pissing down rain all afternoon, here. No cook-outs and probably no fireworks for the folks of southwest Iowa, I'm afraid.
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ReplyDeleteThe above post deleted because Google now hates me and tries to make me look stupid.
ReplyDeleteOh, Christ but that Glover piece is bad,bad,bad.(Cheap)Talk of fairness, but not a mention of the insulated rich taking any kind of a hit, and lots of promulgation of the bullshit that all welfare recipients are fakers and fraudsters. Can anyone who's paid at that fucking paper write about welfare without yoking it to fraud (the levels of which are actually very,very low), and with any insight or knowledge (that excludes Polly)? It's dog-whistle writing, constantly drip-feeding the notion that being on welfare is connected to ripping others off, which it isn't. If you want shysters, and scammers look elsewhere to find their habitat: certain big City institutions, large corporate interests and their lobbies, Westminster wonks and metropolitan chatterati, leeching huge subsidies, bail-outs, funding for their pet white elephant think-tanks or vanity projects.
ReplyDelete@Montana: apropos your recent spat with "Leopold1904" over on the "wadya" thread, there has always been a bit of "lost in translation" going on between dialogues across "the pond".
ReplyDeleteWe share the same language but interpret it differently.
I lived in California for two years in the early 1980's and I only had to open my mouth before being treated like royalty!
Naturally I milked it for all it was worth and made a lot of friends teaching them cockney rhyming slang and different British dialects and accents.
They reciprocated by explaining to me how the American vernacular varied from State to State.
Incidentally, the most famous Iowan expat
(as far as I am aware) on these shores is Bill Bryson who has decided to pitch up in North Yorkshire.
His book: "Notes From A Small Island" is hilarious.
One of the best from an outsider to analyse the mentality of the British and do it with a wit and understanding that wasn't patronizing.
A bit of "piss taking"?
Well yes, we love a bit of "piss taking".
We are World beaters at taking the piss out of ourselves.
If "piss taking" was an Olympic sport we would win hands down!
Bring it on!
Is that Julian character a real ,thinking, fully functioning human being ?
ReplyDeletejust posted this to CiF:
ReplyDelete"hi all,
miserable subject I know, but an important one.
When there are high levels of unemployment and a Conservative government, suicide rates are significantly higher - by 17% in the 1980s.
BBC article on suicide rates
given the rise in unemployment, added to the significant job cuts coming through as a result of the minimum 25% cuts to government funding, it wouldn't be too much of a reach to consider that this may happen again.
It was estimated that around 35,000 additional suicides took place whilst Margaret Thatcher was at the helm... how many do you think that might be now and in the next few years????"
will be waiting to see if this makes it onto the CiF articles list for next week... ho hum
Numbed
ReplyDeleteI think you,re absolutely right.I think rising unemployment will lead to more suicides,more physical and mental health problems,more relationship breakdown,more crime and more social unrest.And of course when ATOS really get stuck into the sick and disabled that may well further fuel the numbers of people either attempting or succeeding in killing themselves.
I know it,s very depressing but i agree with Leni and others who believe the more we badger CIF about these issues the more chance there is that Guardian Towers will stand up and take notice.And if they don,t then at least we can say we tried.
@Alisdair: nowt to disagree with there. It makes me wonder I there isn't a government apparatchik , like "Winston Smith" re-writing history to fit in with the propaganda!
ReplyDeleteI don't usually go for personal abuse but Julian has a real slap-me face.
ReplyDeleteHad to say it here otherwise just might have insulted him on Cif. That would never do !
NUmbed
Which thread ?
One state alone in India has seen 10s of thousands of suicides from farmers as they have been swamped by debt leaving widows to cope with debt, land a families.
Despair will stalk Britain - but who will care ?
@ Leni.
ReplyDeletei'll be modded for my comment on Julian Glover's thread as well, no doubt.
So fecking angry!!!!
and I posted on Waddya about suicide rates.
I think I might do some research tomorrow and file my own article if it isn't picked up.
It is really quite depressing that many of the journalists on CIF don,t have a clue about real life.And here we are, this disparate on-line community, having to 'negotiate' with them to in effect take up our causes.Causes they should know about if they would only break out of their bubbles of privilege and face up to certain unpalatable realities.Something definitely ain,t right with that.But needs must i suppose.Nite all.
ReplyDeletePut the backdoor key of the pub in the letterbox.Now popping to see M. Glover. X
ReplyDeleteThat Julian Glover thread is vile, but then again he is vile, I wonder how many photos they had to look through before they found that perfect looking down his nose pose.
ReplyDeleteAnd he approved it.
What a scumbag, soured yoghurt, I honestly feel like slapping him sensless.
@ Numbed: sorry for taking so long to respond to your earlier comments but I have spent the whole day concentrating on putting the final touches to my great work of fiction for the year ie my tax return.
ReplyDeleteSo just to adress this: "do you own a car and have a mortgage on a house?"
Of course I do, what is the alternative?
As far as debt is concerned. I chopped my credit card in half over ten years ago and my debt is rather modest, or at least it should be if I wasn't getting turned over by the fuckwits who are holding me to ransom.
We are being sold the line that "Capitalism" is the only show in town.
I'm sorry but that doesn't wash.
If a car manufacturer said "this is the best we can up with and if you can't learn how to drive it it is your fault and the steering is a bit dodgy and the brakes don't work properly and the warning lights are useless and one wheel has fallen off but, hey it's your own fault for being so stupid to buy this crap product in the first place............as the Yanks say...."Go figure"!
There's some really nasty, insidious stuff in that Glover piece, although it takes the jeering commenters underneath to put it front and centre. If that smug twat ever had a soul, he's well and truly sold it.
ReplyDelete@Numbed: btw, if it was up to me I'd sell up everything and buy a tent and travel around the globe.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that simple is it?
Leni: trust you to call me to account for mixing my metaphors!
ReplyDeleteGrrr.. I wish I could prove you wrong but I 'm too pissed to attempt it!
I might have a go tommorrow!
Waddya is beginning to look like a rebellion. Wow -'bout time too.
ReplyDeleteLeni if and when the rebellion starts it won't be on waddya although I am sure they will chat about it.
ReplyDeleteOn Waddya -- PrincessCC 1.27 AM writing to The Times to thank them, quite something.
ReplyDeleteLest we forget, Glover is chief leader writer for the Graun. And civil partner of Matthew Parris, who was, last time I checked, a Tory.
ReplyDeleteWhat a crushing indictment that is of the post-1968 Left's obsession with identity politics. Let's give gays equal rights to be greedy sneering bastards.
Class interests, money, always mattered most. The Left lost sight of this thanks to the middle class wankers who hijacked the movement in the sixties. The Right never forgot this eternal truth, which is why neo-liberalism has won.
Rafael Behr, deputy editor of the Observer I think, reviews Chomsky's latest book in the Review section today. It's well worth reading if you want an indication of the poverty of "thought" in what passes for the liberal intelligentsia today.
Jenni
ReplyDeletei/m not getting too excited - it'll be back to Jaffa cakes come tomorrow. We must persist.
Leni
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right, we must persist.
It won't make any difference but it is a start.
@chekhov
ReplyDeleteNo mixed metaphors? Well, if you really have a problem with your capitalist charabanc being holed below the waterline, it's your fault for driving it into a pond.
Forget the bankers, everyone, it's chekhov who's responsible for the breakdown of capitalism! :-)
@Leni - "Waddya is beginning to look like a rebellion."
ReplyDeleteI've just had a look and it seems like the same old shit tbh. I was particularly struck by hermione's egotistical little jizz about how the Yanks all loved him.
That just reinforced my prejudices about both hermione and the USA.
Keep up the pressure, mes enfants.
ReplyDeleteIf Glover is the best they can do ...........NN !
Hank I think everyone knows that the revolution won't start on waddya but it is a good weathervane.
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeleteThere are more comments there than usual complaining about Guardian - there are more protesting voices across the political threads . Not yet enough and they are not being responded to .
Obviously waddya is not the den of rebellios conspirators - musn't upset the cakestand.
jennifera and leni - as I said, I read tonight's comments on waddya and I don't see any sign of rebellion.
ReplyDeleteI did read Montana's poignant little missive to hermione though.
x
I was agreeing Hank, I don't see any sign of rebellion either.
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeleteI read the Behr thing. THe 'Truth to power' bit about chomsky always annoys me as Chomsky has denied this saying that power knows the truth. Chomsky is interested in discussion in search of the truth.
Waddya - not a rebellion but more questioning voices.
@Leni - Behr's review spoke volumes about the liberal mindset. A complacent middle class nonentity promoted far beyond his capabilities and without an original thought to his name gets all snippy and juvenile when confronted with a rational dissection of all that's wrong with the system that has given him so much.
ReplyDeleteA thousand-word critique which said nothing more than any dumbass acolyte of Glenn Beck - "Chomsky's a hypocrite because he's prospered under the capitalist system he's attacking".
Fuck me, this guy's a leading light on the Observer editorial staff.
This is the paper that Orwell once wrote for.