21 July 2010


Bringing in the Catch, Hornbæk - Peter Severin Krøyer

It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.
-Mark Twain


  1. @PeterJ (from last night):

    Gawd, don't get me started on Horizon. I used to love that programme - I particularly remember the ones about the Voyager missions, I still have them on VHS somewhere...

    But these days - for fuck's sake. Year 7 science programming with all the trendy jump-cuts much beloved of the arthouse film maker, trance-inducing music, blurry out-of-focus shots of an "expert's" face wobbling about all over the place, exotic locations ("Katie Price and Gary Barlow travel to the Maldives in a quest to unearth the real story behind the Higgs boson"), utterly pointless and artificial dramatic tension, etc etc et-bloody-cetera.

  2. "Katie Price and Gary Barlow travel to the Maldives in a quest to unearth the real story behind the Higgs boson"
    pffffffff..... don't give them any ideas

    morning all.

  3. I must fess up that I haven't watched Horizon for ages precisely because of the way it's pitched these days. I used to love Countryfile but that too has been titvated to within an inch of it's life and all outdorrsy programmes with interesting things to say have become dominated by Kate "I'M NOT HYSTERICAL" Humble and Ben Bloody whiny Fogle grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  4. @Swifty

    Yes, indeed. A friend of mine worked on computer graphics for the programme in the 80s, demonstrating the structure and mechanism of the AIDS virus, and used to tell me how careful and rigorous he had to be in getting it absolutely right.

    Now, we get, from 2009: "Ever since he was at school, actor and comedian Alan Davies has hated maths. And like many people, he is not much good at it either. But Alan has always had a sneaking suspicion that he was missing out. So, with the help of top mathematician Professor Marcus du Sautoy, Alan is going to embark on a maths odyssey."

    Or, from 2008: "Jimmy Doherty, pig farmer, one-time scientist and poster-boy for sustainable food production is on a mission to find out if GM crops really can feed the world."

  5. @PhilippaB:

    ..."don't give them any ideas"...

    I don't need to. I can well imagine the scene - the 23 year old director huddled with her 28 year old producer and the most important person in the room, the 25 year old "talent co-ordinator".

    "So can we get Linkeker to front it?"
    "No, he's taking a month off after the World Cup"
    "Hmm, OK, he was my first choice... what about Craig Revel Horwood?"
    "Yeah, Craig is free, he's just finished the Strictly tour and he's looking for a suitable vehicle, should I give him a call?"
    "Yeah! That should make for some edgy TV, people - BAFTA here we come"

    Next week, Craig Revel Horwood travels to Argentina to examine the legacy of Britain's Victorian engineers in the modern world - "Armstrong and Brunel - how the cha-cha-cha and the gentleman's-excuse-me changed the world forever"

  6. Morning folks!

    Just read your article PB! Good stuff!
    Got as far as Cranstone53's comment! ROTFLMAO at first but is he being sarcastic?

    What the heck I'm still giggling!

    More packing today :( why do we have so much STUFF! Still finished the books (thats most of what I'm taking with me) and done almost all of the shredding. Hoping to start on the kitchen today (Help!)

    Big decision made, having my hair coloured! Just sick of being grey! Seems to make me invisible somehow!

  7. thanks anne - am a bit suspicious of DocDave meself...

    good luck packing, and enjoy your new colour.

  8. Philippa:

    It is a good article - articulate in the highest sense. Interestingly, my rather spoiled cousin is about to enter into a 'civil partnership' with her girlfriend, what is bizarre is that I think it's all a little distasteful as she is continuing a relationship with another woman who worships the ground she walks on. I'm not sure why she's entering into a legal contract....

  9. Anne;

    Oh god, that hideous packing. When we moved, we did a moonlight from the last place we'd spent 8 years in and had to squash all our stuff that was once liberally distributed around 1100 sq.ft. into 475 sq. ft...... about 1500 books and 2,500 records were just for starters.

    I hope you have enough room to 'spread out' when you get there ;0)

  10. larit - hehehe. interesting, that - DB was recently talking about two friends of hers in an 'open' relationship (which is causing some problems), and I have to admit, i assumed she was talking about a M/F couple...the ol' stereotype of gay women as immediate and longterm monogamists is a bit lacking, think...

    i can't see the point, really, in having a relationship with another person and still play around. just not fair to anybody. and - am old-fashioned - surely one can only love (romantically) one person at once.

    maybe am not old-fashioned, just lazy...

  11. Philippa:

    I think my cousin, for all her bravado, craves security, but at the same time is playing the field. After all, if women are swooning over you telling you how amazing you are..... but the whole 'wedding' thing seems a little hollow, not to mention costing a considerable amount of money.

    I'm old fashioned too (although a bit of an flirt, I'm ashamed to admit) but have been steadfast to Mr LaRit - over 13 years that's been quite something for both of us and of course, people come along who you are attracted to (this has happened to both of us) but it's never been acted upon and I think we've endured so much together, I can't imagine a betrayal on either side (of course, you can never say 'never') I would not be able to live with myself if I broke his heart ;(

  12. the ol' stereotype of gay women as immediate and longterm monogamists is a bit lacking, think...

    I meant to agree with you on this. Perhaps, gay women are now emulating the habits of gay men?

  13. Right, more housework before preps for WOMAD tomorrow ;)

  14. ”Perhaps, gay women are now emulating the habits of gay men?”

    Women potentially being as promiscuous if given the chance, as men potentially might be if given the chance? Covers ears Say it ain’t so, La Ritournelle, say it ain’t so…

    Joking aside, I don’t generally see the point of playing around if you’re in a relationship – although to be fair, I can think of one person I’d happily break that rule for. Doubt I’ll ever get as far as finding out if she thinks the same way, though.


  15. @LaRit
    Womad eh ? Saw my all time favourite band there for the first time in 2002. We went for years. Heard things have changed in the last couple of years (more mainstream acts, more corporate environment, restrictions on taking your own drink in etc) - hope it's not lost its soul too much ! Although I like the new site a lot.

  16. Swifty
    Funny, I just had a text from Kylie asking for your number.

  17. @BW:

    It's a tricky one. As you say, I've got that damn Minogue girl on my case, but she’s got no chance frankly, she’s up against some seriously impressive opposition.

  18. That's exactly what I told her mate, but she's a total bunny boiler. You'd never know it from her videos.

  19. @BW:

    It’s probably ungallant of me to mention it mate, and I’m not usually judgmental about such things, but it’s the fact that she’s had six kids by four different blokes in the past nine years that’s rather ruined Kylie for me, frankly.

  20. This comment has been removed by the author.

  21. @BW:

    "This post has been removed by the author."


  22. It was a brief and atypical moment of gaucheness....

  23. Swifty and BW

    Have you two started drinking early today? ;)

  24. Nope, just high on life Jennifer, just high on life…

  25. Well I am no longer a grey haired ols lady! I am a light brown haired old lady who feel energised and at least 10 years younger!

    Trouble is I feel more like partying than bl**dy packing!

  26. anne

    You're very brave to go for a complete new look !

    I have always had long hair - cept for a post operation period when I had to cut it short to match bald spot.

    My sons took one look at me and burst into tears .

    I/m lazy about these things really - couldn't be bothered to go through the necessary redoes every so often.

    Forget the packing - party.

  27. Yeah- we're all against the celebrity-isation of important things. Like the article today about Johhny Rotten going to Israel, and it is assumed he has to be involved with the 'debate' going on there.

    .....I don't say this often..... ROFLMAO-, the Guardian reports..
    "Cillit Bang maker buys Durex firm"

  28. Morning all....


    try and combine the two. Put some music on, dress up in your glad rags, and then dance around the house while simultaneously packing boxes.

    The job is, as they say, a good 'un!!

  29. Pack a bit, party a bit, pack a bit. Makes for a very interseting combination after about seven bottles.

  30. In other news, Soccer has announced that it is

  31. BW that would be several bottles of soft drink
    :( I don't drink (on medicatiom).

    But some music would be good! Ah! sod the boxes I'll just prance around a bit!

  32. I have been deleted for being rude to Plums.

    I regard being rude to Plums as both a basic right and a duty.

  33. Swifty;

    Would that be the lovely Hannah you refer to?? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)


    Went to the first WOMAD in 19EightyTWO - ah god, thems were the days down the Bath and West Showground. it moved a couple of years ago to Malmesbury in Wiltshire - really looking forward to it as I'll be seeing the Drummers of Burundi (who played at Bath and West one) and my beloved Gil Scott Heron.

    It is a bit more 'corporate' and just a smidgen too middle class - I got into a fight 3 years ago with a nasty, horrible old Woman who told me off for smoking a fag in a huge tent!!! - I had to exert a Vulcan death pinch to get her to get her claws out of my arm - God, she was vicious.... but Richie Havens was the prize though... saw grown men crying in the audience ;0)

  34. Leni:

    "I have been deleted for being rude to Plums"

    When he's not being a complete twat, he can be quite funny, it's just that his facism gets in the way too much.


    I have just pissed myself thank you after reading that thing about Cillit Bang and Durex lol ;))

  35. Laughing I might add.... I'm not incontinent - yet.

  36. Leni, it beggars belief sometimes, doesn't it? Shits like Plums get to say the most vile crap and those of us who respond are the ones who get deleted! I had to tread a very careful path on Catherine Bennett's Polanski thread to keep from getting myself deleted or sent to pre-mod responding to the ironically-named Savvymum.

  37. Fucking mods have just removed a really good post of mine for no good reason..... on the Lydon in Israel thread - I'm bloody furious.

  38. Montana

    Savvymum is apparently a theologian - or at least studied theology.

  39. Ignore plums.

    BTW, has anyone ever had a road to Damascus moment? When something you thought and tried to hold up as a belief for so long suddenly collapses in your face and you see the other side of the fence.

  40. @Nap

    Yes. Several. Some personal, some political.

  41. Yes, thank you PeterJ, but really it is too private and personal to talk about here. But a shock anyway. Mine is a mixture of personal and political, and social I suppose as well.

    Anyway, no time for idle thoughts. I suppose when an individual is caught up in the vast uncontrollable motion of humanity and society the only thing to do is carrying on living.

  42. Nap

    Yes - Ascention Day 1962! On the corner of Kingsway and Duke St in Cardiff, I saw the AScention day procession of Witness going down Queen St (Main shopping Street) and realised I no longer believed in God.

    It was at the end of my first year at Uni - I've never looked back. All the messages of the church has atught me that being female was just not good enouggh for him upstairs and I chucked the whole nasty mysogenistic system out of the window!They are still arguing about women (and gay) bishops for ffs.

    Christaianity would have been so much better without all the nonsense it taught about sex and sexuality.

    They were still punishing 'unmarried mothers' (and their children) then.

    Apols to people who believe but all that stuff made me reject the whole thing, now I can't make the concept of a supreme being fit into my universe - just accepted it and moved on I guess.

  43. @Nap

    I wasn't going to ask for details, or offer very many, except on the political side if asked.

    In general, though, such experiences are part of life. In scientific terms, some are like a revision of a theory using new evidence that suddenly explains a few nagging puzzles. Others are like Kuhn's paradigm shifts, where the whole mode of thinking needs to change and all the evidence you have has to be looked at anew, and might now seem to point in the opposite direction.

    (Sorry about scientific analogies - that's scientists for you.)

  44. I have to preserve this, 'cos I love it but I have a feeling it isn't going to last. This is FreemanMoxy responding to some numbnuts called rajkish on Hadley Freeman's latest:


    21 Jul 2010, 5:42PM

    FreemanMoxy.... I read some of your comments

    Oho! That is really not a battle you want to get into with me, little man. You see, I've looked up your comments as well, and frankly they read like the ramblings of a drugged horse.

    Yes, yes, you don't like socialism, that is very clear from some of your rambling, disjointed attempts at debate.

    However, you appear to be mistaking disagreement with my opinions for a critique of my writing style, which I think most would agree is coherent, eloquent and properly spelt. In a "who writes nonsense" competition, most impartial observers would award the crown to you, hands down.

    So, to start with, let's have a look at the previous post you addressed to me:

    what exactly does this mean?

    you surely have never been to pub

    It doesn't actually make sense as a sentence, and at the very least, you should use the definite article, ie "the pub".



    There's never any need for four commas, rajkish, old bean. That just looks mental. Stick to one. Always.

    go get yourself some life

    That should be "go get yourself a life."

    this life is too short for romantic .....idiots.

    Um, yeah. That's meant to be insulting, I get that much, but the trouble is that it's very hard to be insulted by someone so manifestly stupid and obnoxious. One just tends to think "oh dear, what a pity."

    Now, I get the impression that English isn't your first language, and that's fair enough. But don't think because I'm left wing that I'll shy away from having a proper go at a ghastly semi-literate reactionary such as yourself just because you're Indian - I treat all nasty bastards equally, regardless of race, creed or colour, and you sound like the sort that gets their servants to beat beggars in the street.

    Fight the battles you at least have a chance of winning, mate. You having a go at my writing style and declaring it to be "nonsense" is like Abu Hamza criticising my manicure, or Sarah Palin calling me ignorant.

  45. Nap

    Such moments can be either destructive or liberating. They can come as a shock.

    Anne's example is a good one - by accepting God and the Christian interpretation she had accepted the whole package - including the 'women are subject to men' rubbish. Firm beliefs generally come within a framework of believes and attitudes, expectations and often generate self fulfilling prophesies.

    Hope you are OK.

  46. Savvymum is apparently a theologian - or at least studied theology.

    That may be, Leni, but she was defending Polanski and engaging in some of the worst victim-blaming I've ever seen. And that wasn't the first thread that has made me chuckle at the irony of her chosen user name.

  47. Is it possible that putting braying fools in a large sack to silence them will soon be made legal - or at leastbe seen as an act of common sense ?

    Read Simon Hughes and despair.

  48. Montana

    Agreed - she has some very dubious theological interpretations.

    Anybody who defends Polanski is suspect.

    Savvymum has a 'following' on Andrew Brown threads.

  49. Comments on the asylum seeker's thread are beyond despicable.

    Re Damascene conversions: like Anne, mine was (ironically) about religion. It just all came tumbling down one day.

  50. Oh, and re savvymum: what sort of colossal twat gives themselves a name like that, along with oh-so-sweet yummy mummy pic?

  51. evening all. radio 4 still fucked so am listening to dirgelike german lieder on r3. may need a drink shortly...

    larit - re earlier about 'homonorms' or what have you. it is noticeable that there is a bit of a 'generation gap' between women in the gay community - while the 'longterm immediate monogamy' thing has never been the rule, obv, it is v prevalent in the generation above mine (say, 40+) and common in mine (30+) while others in mine it's a bit 'serial monogamy' like for hets. but the feisty little bastards at club mofo play the field like there's no tomorrow...think it's probably more a generational thing than anything else, then there's the 'subsets' who do tend to act differently anyway, in the gay as in the het community.

    may be tempting fate, but me article is about to drop off the front page and of the 105 comments thus far, no moderations, and nobody's said anybody else is going to hell. it's not all been holding hands and singing, but it has at least been civil. on gay marriage. so am having a small sigh of relief at that...

    savvymum is good on theology / history of religion, but gets a bit weird for me when she moves into the modern age...

    and anne
    "Apols to people who believe but all that stuff made me reject the whole thing"
    no apology needed at all - if i'd grown up in a different church, i have no doubt things could have turned out v different. was immensely lucky to be in a more inclusive environment, and, when it got a bit fundy (as can happen, even in the best places), having sensible parents who could put things in context for me. i think your first / formative experiences can lend a sense of 'ownership' such that if you grow up in hatey church, all the knowing in the world that there are less hatey out there won't change your essential view of religion. whereas for me, having had a better experience, all the knowing that there is the hatey out there doesn't either.

    bit like the granny-burning-in-hell man, but the other way around. i think i'm right, therefore they're wrong...

    this is probably not helpful in the greater scheme of things, but just an explanation of how it's happened for me...

  52. According to Waddya Plums has been banned, I will look out with interest for his new name. ;)

  53. jen - well, if a MissScarlet turns up and starts slaying liberals in the ballroom with a spanner, we'll know, won't we?


  54. Philippa

    Just rechecked your article, finally (my computer decided to reset itself, and ban me from the t'internet for a while), and I'm also quite impressed.

    (there's been a few comments close to the line though, imo, but overall, pretty good. Well done!)

  55. Was also going to make a cluedo based joke, and am now glad I didn't!!

  56. Evening all

    Jesus. Good job that piece by Peace Musabi is closed for comment, because I was just about to rip a whole load of people a new asshole.

    What on EARTH is wrong with people that they cannot accept that a woman who was raped, tortured, who saw her brother decapitated in front of her eyes, who lost contact with her kids, deserves humanitarian protection?!! And should be allowed to have her kids join her after 5 years of forced separation?!

    I am spitting bloody feathers.

    Shame I am not at York House tomorrow, but Taylor House, otherwise I would have joined her vigil.

    And I am concerned that it is being heard at York House too - some of the judges are great, but some are absolute heartless fuckers - and really rude to boot.

  57. That thread is a complete horror show and I also wonder where the moderation is.

    I am not a fan of harsh moderation but on the peoples panels articles posters are warned that any personal or offensive comments will not be allowed because of the sensetive and vunerable nature of the topic, but it is apparently ok to tell a woman who saw her husband beheaded before rape and torture that she is a liar and should bog off to Uganda.

    I think I am going to stop reading Cif threads like this one because I am seriously losing my faith in people.

  58. Philippa - meant to say earlier: nice article! Can't understand the desire to get hitched myself, except for the legal protections. Me, I'd be quite happy with a het civil partnership if driven to extremity, but 'marriage' sends a chill down my spine.

    The 'giving away' of the bride really, really pisses me off.

  59. @BB

    Yeah, that thread is despicable in parts. But, in devil's advocate mode, there are some questions that come to mind reading that piece and others like it. And it doesn't help to say that simply asking them is despicable or racist, as too many people hurry to do.

  60. Jen/BB - I really hope the poor woman doesn't read the comments. FFS. Makes you ashamed to be human.

  61. I have promised that I will seriously consider marriage as an option when England win the world cup!!


  62. PeterJ - I totally disagree. Either she is telling the truth or she is lying. If she is lying, then that will no doubt come out in court and we can have another thread where she is eviscerated.

    On the other hand, if she is telling the truth (which seems more likely to me), then a lot of those comments are really, truly despicable. Some of them didn't even question her story ("I'm not without sympathy, but why did you have to come here?"), FFS!

  63. It's funny how some threads work out though, isn't it.

    I'd sort of assumed that there were teams of people constantly scanning cif for certain key-words, with a phone-tree and/or IM window on hand to alert their brethren to the 'cause' as and when they came up.

    But sometimes things go rather well, and debate is quite civilised, with a few notable exceptions, so maybe it's not so 'co-ordinated'.

    Speaking of which, I saw an article with 'Brazil' in the title today, and immediately headed there to see what crap MaM had been peddling this time, but he hadn't, and I realised I haven't seen 'him' for a while.

    Has he been banned too?

  64. Perhaps he is on holiday James, even trolls need a little down time.

    Wouldn't he make a lovely holiday companion.

  65. Hahaha - Yeah, especially if you were in 'foreign abroad', and he insisted on being all shouty and self-righteous, and 'Oi, Pedro, you don't want to do it like that...'!!

  66. Ha James I actually had a picture of him in my mind harassing the waiters and explaining their countries history to them, I wonder if any of his drinks don't contain a bit of piss in them. ;)

  67. Peter

    Well, she has been believed to the extent that she has been granted humanitarian protection, by the sounds of things.

    Uganda is not "safe" at the moment either, though - it has settled down a bit since a few years ago, but there are still random sectarian attacks on villages, and kidnappings and such like.

    For anyone interested, the Country of Origin Report - which us lawyerly types and the Home Office use to rely on in Asylum cases - can be accessed here..., although it hasn't been updated since Feb of last year.

    As to "why didn't she seek asylum in a neighbouring country" - many people do, but anyone who is able to scrape up any means at all will get the hell out of the region, even the continent. If civil war broke out here tomorrow, I would be on a plane to Australia, not Ireland. And if I couldn't afford it, I would sell everything I possessed to scrape the money up, or scrounge it off friends and relatives.

  68. (and if he is on holiday, I reckon him and DrJohnZoidberg may have some sort of cif timeshare figured out anyway.....)

  69. Jen

    "I actually had a picture of him in my mind harassing the waiters and explaining their countries history to them, I wonder if any of his drinks don't contain a bit of piss in them. ;)"

    Lol. Piss, or maybe 'something' a bit stronger.

    (Especially if he's ever been to Latin America, and sprouted any of his 'This place has just gone right down the drain since Pinochet was ousted...' shite!!)

  70. Montana;

    Well preserved that one from Freemanmoxy!

    Sliced and diced that eejit.... Rakish/rajkish dimbo!

  71. Is it me, or has cif been remarkably stingy with the amount of articles today?

    Budget cuts?

  72. Freemanmoxy has a habit of making me laugh out loud at his comments.

    On yesterday's asylum thread he posted this, which made me spit out my tea when I read it.

    "Ahh, yes, asylum and immigration threads. Always a great place to find this commenter..."

    I think I will bookmark it and just start posting random "Toom: that's you, that is" comments instead of actually trying to argue with people like him any more.

  73. @Thauma, @BB

    I generally agree with you. It's just that there is a tendency for these appeals to empathy to miss out things I'd like to know, and to rely instead on heaping on the emotion. Asylum and immigration pieces do it all the time, particularly when children can be brought into it, and so do the frequent pieces from Clive Stafford Smith's outfit.

    No questions are ever answered even when the authors come BTL, as has happened with Stafford Smith and with the WAR representative on the Musabi thread. The aim is campaigning rather than elucidation, and while there's nothing wrong with that it can be frustrating.

  74. Peter

    Yep - pretty much agree with that. They are done as "human interest" pieces rather than proper investigative pieces though, it seems.

  75. PeterJ

    If you really do want to know more about the reality for asylum seekers in the UK, why don't you get involved. There must be groups in your area that support ASs and you could hold on to your objectivity by doing a kind of participant observation.

  76. @Sheff

    That's a really good thought. I hadn't considered that there would be many people reaching here, but I guess there must be. I'll see what I can find out.

  77. Peter

    It's just that there is a tendency for these appeals to empathy to miss out things I'd like to know, and to rely instead on heaping on the emotion. Asylum and immigration pieces do it all the time, particularly when children can be brought into it

    I'd agree with this in general except that this is a first-person account from someone who has - if, of course, she is to be believed - suffered more than most of us can imagine. Supposing that even half her claims are true, the comments were sheer cruelty.

    I say this as someone who 1) thinks the UK is overpopulated and that economic immigrants (obviously not to be confused with asylum seekers, but many do confuse them) are driving down the wages of the working classes, and who 2) does not find appeals to 'think of the children' to be very enticing as I can't stand the buggers.

    But the lack of human empathy on that thread was astonishing. It wasn't the place to rail against 'immigrants'.

  78. I have come to the conclusion, with my own little bit of cod psychology, that people are absolutely shit scared about what is happening to the country at the moment - even (or perhaps even especially) those who are relatively comfortably off.

    They are scared that the next wave of redundancies might swallow them up, that they won't be able to find work, that they will lose their house, that their marriage might break down as a result... etc... etc...

    So they need someone to blame. Who better than feckless scroungers and Johnny Foreigner? They are people who are "not like them" and, as a result, all the fear, all the pain they are feeling inside can be puked out over someone else.

    No fucking excuse though, frankly.

  79. BB - it's always the case, and most especially for those who buy into the Protestant work ethic mentality prevalent in the US/UK.

    While you're still in work, it's a testament to your skills and dedication, and has nothing at all to do with the old boy's network. When other people are made redundant, it's because they were lazy, and it's just the market sorting itself out.

    When you lose your job, it's someone else's fault.

  80. @Thauma

    It isn't actually first-person - it's a collation of material taken from WAR press releases, as can be seen from their website, and put out as first-person for greater impact. As I say, nothing wrong with that.

  81. Indeed BB

    It's a fairly effective tactic.

    Pave the way with some quite extreme Daily Mail type articles (initially attacking someone who's definitely 'other'), then work your way up the scale.

    Without wanting to Godwin, it's very much a case of first they came for, and I didn't speak out..... until eventually they're coming for you, and there's nobody left to help (or they're all baying for your blood, in the hope that it means they won't have to come for them next).....

  82. Peter - hmm, really? Haven't checked the WAR website. If it's true that this wasn't a piece actually written by the defendant, then that is pretty underhanded on the Guardian's part (or WAR's - whoever might be responsible).

    And it would strike me as a further manipulation of someone who's been through enough shit.

    Still, it doesn't justify the comments.

  83. Godwins Law gets right on my nerves.

    I think initially it was a sensible idea to stop people using Nazi as a kind of stupid knee jerk response to anyone who you fundamentally disagreed with but now it has got to the point were it is impossible to discuss anything that happened during the rise of the Nazis, the propoganda, the politics etc without someone saying something daft about how you are comparing, for instance the othering of immigrants and welfare claimants to the holocaust.

    Obviously the only comparison to the holocaust would be another holocaust but there is nothing wrong with comparing the rise of historically fascist states with what is happening now.

  84. defendant => plaintiff, I think!

  85. Jen

    Completely agree.

    Obviously, it shouldn't be used for everything and anything, but, if every time we point out that, you know, x, y or z has some pretty damning examples in history, people are going start screaming 'Godwin, Godwin', then it defeats the whole point of learning from history and that.

    In my opinion...

  86. Click on Prof Plums- 'This user profile is not available'. The categoric and final certainty of a banning.

  87. Hah! Gallows Pole!

    I had forgotten about that song. Superb. :o)

  88. 'ray! more zep!

    love it.

    harrypotterphan doing phine work on utube there...

  89. LOL

    My beloved has just turned over to the SyFy channel (god I hate their new name!) for the announcer to say "Caution - the following programme contains themes of peril".


    Are other channels going to start saying "Caution: the following programme contains romantic dialogue" or some shit?

    It is ten o'clock at night. I think we can cope with a bit of a perilous theme without cacking our pants...

  90. BB

    They have it before most programs (Angel has a lovely warning that it may contain monster goo).

    If you are watching Polar Storm that is normally an afternoon film so you will probably not be too traumatised.

    And now I know I need to find a job or do some volunteering because I know the Scfy back catalogue. ;)

  91. BB - sounds like the warnings on the back of the mildest DVDs, by category.

    "mild peril" is just not a phrase that works...

  92. Hello everyone, not sure if this is relevant to above comments but they had me scouring my library for this:
    "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson from "The Granta Book of the American Short Story" (edited by Richard Ford)

    Sorry, I still haven't worked out how to do the "short cut" links but I will get there soon!

    BTW: does my inability to do those links have something to do with the fact that I'm crap at maths or am I just generally stupid?

  93. Jen

    I will introduce you to my husband - you will get on like a bloody house on fire.

    He realised he has already seen polar storm, so it's Sons of Anarchy now (which I love).

    Philippa - yep. Scary shit or nothing! :o)

  94. When I was talking about my 'road to Damascus moment' earlier I was not talking in the religious sense, and not really in a politcal sense.

    But that is not important. I will be up half the night studying.

    a crazy day on Cif. These immigration/asylum thread- sigh. They just descend into two armed camps. TBH my views are in the middle- namely that of course we should provide humanitarian care to those under our wings, but on the other hand we have no authority or influence over other countires to tell them how to run things- those African dictators and warlords who create the hardships which creates refugees. And of course, we can't do anything about their human rights abuses and have to pick up the pieces.

    Some on the left might then suggest intervening in the name of humanitarian intervention.
    This 'messianic leftyism' is not good. That is what led to many of the liberal intelligentsia supporting the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

    The whole debate is just so complex that one individual story no matter how tragic, can not act as a conduit for the whole debate on this. It is ultimately futile and self destroying as we cannot do anything to stop these brutal dictators- yet we have to pick up the pieces that the scum make, broken families, sluaghtered children, psychological trauma.

    And we can't just invade these countries, becuase then we would have the Iraq situation- killing people in the name of their freedom.

    My own view is that we as a member state of the EU should be working together with them on this. After all millions of economic migrants came here and eroded (I must hasten to say that the people who hire them are nearly always British- they bring out the trope that 'they work harder')the pay and conditions of labour, and make it physically impossible for people like me to get a job. It is time other EU countries took some responsibility.

  95. Nap

    "TBH my views are in the middle- namely that of course we should provide humanitarian care to those under our wings, but on the other hand we have no authority or influence over other countires to tell them how to run things- those African dictators and warlords who create the hardships which creates refugees. "

    YOu see, this is where I think you are wrong. I guarantee that in every hot-spot where refugees are being displaced by their hundreds of thousands you will see a recent history of Western involvement and/or interference.

    And by Western, I don't just mean governments, but trans-national companies. We have every authority and influence over them by the way in which we have created conflict in those countries - either directly in terms of places like, say, Iraq and Afghanistan - or indirectly in places like Nigeria, the Indian sub-continent, where corruption is rife and Western commercial interests are always paramount.

  96. @Nap: have a look at this website: www.vernoncoleman.com.

  97. Having real difficulties getting logged in onto here and some other blogs at mo. Manage to log on - spend ages typing comment then it says ''comment too big'' and either deletes it or posts it on some random whim.

    Anyway hope this one is posted.

    Montana thanks so much for repeating that post earlier - what a blinder. It fair made my day it really did. And then BB that link! I laughed so much - that is like so many posters we all know and love.

    Today I have mostly been annoying people on The Telegraph (its my new favourite sport) because finding Cif playing silly buggers (anyone else?)

    Also been reading through back pages here and am really glad saw Deano post briefly. Deano if you do stop by big hugs and I really hope you are doing ok.

    Right off to bed but just to ask - has anyone else noticed that David Camerons face is getting redder and shinier every day? It is preternaturally shiny-red. Scary man.

  98. Hey PCC!

    Hope all is good wid joo

    Take care xx

  99. BB - Agree. I tend to be with Thauma on this. Too much fear of being seen as a right wing loon has meant no real discussion of economic immigration which is a very different matter to assylum seekers. When it comes to economic immigration I think we need to get angry but NOT at the immigrants themselves (who are doing the best they can for themselves and their families as would we all) but at businesses for hiring them (just as businesses outsource jobs to other nations with slave labour wages) but when it comes to assylum seekers I believe we need to help as many people as we can.

    Because as you say BB - in most nations where assylum seekers come from - the meddling hand of the west is nearly always present.

    Checkhov - quite a long time ago when I was a newbie you posted a link to that Vernon Coleman site ( I think it was your good self). Very interesting stuff - especially the stuff on Gordon the Moron! Really shocking when you read his policies exposed like that!

  100. Hey BB - it is! How about you? Meant to be off to bed but the joy of finding posts going up okay again is keeping me up. Ah to be able to connect to other than just right wing nutjobs.

    Honestly if you think Cif is bad spend some time on the Telegraph. People actually post stuff like ''But in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if this crash has been engineered by socialists like Krugman and Soros (yeah that multi-billionaire financier socialist) so that they can turn around and say capitalism isn't working time to bring on the Marx and the Che.'' And it got tons of reccommends whereas the guy who answered to above poster with ''listen you fool'' got 3.

    There is a world of right wing nuts out there who believe the NWO is about to come along and sweep us all into a new socialist era. Thing is they might be right on some fronts but it aint gonna be socialist!

    I just hope the old laptop stops playing up. Have a couple of writing groups am a member of and not been able to access them at all.

  101. Fair enough BB, although this is the problem- these companies screw them over and they screw us over- although at least we have a functioning state to look after us (wouldn't be sure about this current lot though)

    PCC, as I said in my previous post 99% of the people who are the recrutiers and employers migrant labour in this country are British. They know that they can trample on their rights and conditions more and squeeze them. Remember most of these new EU countries were under the grip of communism not long ago, and there is still a lingering prescence of the fear of the authorities, or if not fear then memories of a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy, so are much less likely to approach anybody offical.

    I can't get a job as a toilet cleaner, I can't get a job at the back of a pharmacy, I can't get a job at Mcdonalds. At all of these interviews the prospective employer has been British. I can't see my long term future here.

  102. Since "this message will be held for moderation" ...how about fuck you "moderators" for being such a bunch of condescending twats?

    I swore I would never post again on CiF but some one has to call them to account for their disingenuity.

    No doubt my post will be deleted, since I'm in "pre-mod" and have been since the month of May of this year.

    For the simple crime of calling Lord Adonis to account for him attempting to split the "left wing " vote at the last election.