15 July 2010

15/07/10

Easter Island Eclipse - Stephane Guisard, NASA Photo of the Day

Before a war military science seems a real science, like astronomy; but after a war it seems more like astrology.

-Rebecca West

251 comments:

  1. Morning all!

    Paul - your point about women and Islam is probably a fair one - I don't know enough about the Koran.

    But I can say that there is evidence that in the early church women played an active part in church meetings and were even leaders of communities. As soon as christianity became a state religion women were increasingly marginalised.

    Class society in all its forms has been essntially patriarchal, based as it is on the wealth and power of the male ruling elite and the necessity for the passing of that wealth and power, to a man's children.

    Any religion that is used to support these ruling elites, be it absolute monarchy feudalism or capitalism (or anything else) will inevitably restrict the lives of women. Look at all the fuss we are getting about women bishops!

    Apols to those of you who know this already but these days just saying 'its patriarchy' makes me sound as if I've gone all radfem on you! (as if!!!), in fact of course they blame men, I blame capitalism which of course oppresses most men too.

    As to the veil, well I'm as appalled by full veiling as anyone but legislating against it won't work. In fact it could be couterproductive. Ultimately it is an isue that will need to be dealt with by muslim women (and men!). Of course we have an obligation to support the liberation struggles of others but we can't liberate them. They have to do it themselves.

    I remember going to a meeting in Bradford during the 80's there were a number of Pakistani men at the meeting, two of them brought his sister along. She had only recently come back from several years in Pakistan and was unusually heavily veiled for a Pakistani woman in those days (although no face covering). Her English was poor and the men translated the proceedings to her.

    A year later I met this woman again, she was in jeans and T-shirt and confidently spoke in the meeting in good English. By including their sister in political education these men had helped her to liberate herself. (Incidentally I am not implying that she had to wear western dress to do it but that was her choice).

    Despite the dangers some women do sadly meet when they make such decisions women in 'traditional' communities are breaking free.

    Banning the burqa will as others have said simply imprison these women in their homes. Short cuts don't work and often have completely contrary consequences. Besides isn't banning the burqa at least in part about 'fighting terrorism' and islamophobia?

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  2. Good points Annetan, but it isnt entirely about liberating the wearer - there is a number of arguments for the ban, not least the right of people to see the face of those they encounter in their daily business. I dont see what possible precedent there is in human history for saying masking your face is more important a right than revealing it - quite the contrary in fact.

    I actually rather like this Hitchens piece on the issue, cant remember who linked it:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2253493

    I also have very grave reservations that the issue can be solved with the laissez faire approach - evidence suggests many Muslim women are going in the opposite direction. I dont think its tenable that left alone everything will work out ok - you have to get your hands dirty sometimes, and i think a ban falls in that category: ugly but justified.

    Really interesting debate yesterday though, enjoyed everyones comments.

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  3. Mandleson on Radio 4 right now. New Labour made the country much more "united, decent, civilised and harmonious."

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  4. Oh christ, Tanya Gold on sympathising with Raoul Moat. Dare I read it...

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  5. "New Labour made the country much more "united, decent, civilised and harmonious." "

    Almost a perfect inversion of the truth.

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  6. I was talking to someone yesterday about Mandelson. We both reckoned he’s one of the smoothest operators we’ve ever seen – we’ve never seen him “lose” an interview. He’ll use any trick in the book to get the upper hand – he’ll fake shock when it suits, flatter, lie, twist and distort, tease, joke, prod and generally manouevre himself into a position of advantage at every turn. But you never, ever, ever, get to see beyond the shiny, slightly sinister surface.

    At least as far as his media skills go, he gets A+++ from me.

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  7. Mandelson, like Blair, are textbook sociopaths - endless superficial charm concealing a personality that will happily collude in actions that kill hundreds of thousands if it furthers their ambition, wealth and power.

    Osborne is similar, just without the charm.

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  8. Quote of the day has to be FreemanMoxy on the Penny thread: The Tory "explanation" for rising and falling levels of unemployment is based on the idea that unemployment is based on mysteriously fluctuating levels of laziness.

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  9. @Jay:

    Mandelson has clearly lost sight of the fact that politics is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

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  10. "Mandelson has clearly lost sight of the fact that politics is a means to an end, not an end in itself."

    Think that applies to the whole New Labour regime.

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  11. Morning all

    "New Labour made the country much more "united, decent, civilised and harmonious." "

    Almost a perfect inversion of the truth.

    jay

    LOL the man is living in his own little deluded world plotting and coniving......


    habib
    I didn't say you made "mistakes" I said they were dodgy....but then they were satire right?!?

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  12. I'll second Jay's praise for your points Anne - I got distracted onto the Bunting thread (now closed) - but Jay something that struck me was the fact that this could be interpreted (Women's issues aside) as a form of persecution.

    The very fact that the law is an attempt to criminalise Muslim Women who are, in many aspects of their lives, already in a vlunerable position, for a 'tradition' which is imposed by a masculine clergy is entirely misplaced and circumvents how masculine ideology is foisted upon women so they are left in a lose-lose situation.

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  13. Mornin all.

    Re: veil and the French ban, sorry if this has already been said but have been having issues with access recently - Jay, the original plan was to ban the niqab in 'public places' (i.e. state property like town halls and post offices) andd even the chap who has set up a fighting fund to pay any fines issued is behind that. It's the idea that the ban will apply to women walking down the street that is causing some unease, and looks to be heading for the constitutional court.

    Atomboy - may be missing something but OpenCopyNews appears to be broken - it;s now headed 'Apocrypha Magazine' and I get a 'Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here' error message, and can't log in...

    will stick something up on UT2 in the interim...

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  14. Tanya Gold on Raoul Moat indeed. My cif reading for day has comprised of a quick skim over the headlines. I'm off to London, to the national gallery and the Tate, (the old tate, not the more 'controversial' one!)

    See you later.

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  15. Besides isn't banning the burqa at least in part about 'fighting terrorism' and islamophobia?

    This is entirely right Anne - it has nothing to do with Women's Rights as such - it also doesn't seem to matter how many times you say it, if you're a Leftie and you challenge it, you're in 'league' with the devil!

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  16. NapK:

    There's a good free exhibition at the National about fakes - looks fascinating!

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  17. la rit.

    Thank you. I'm still here, turns out my train doesn't leave till 10.

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  18. Swifty:

    re: Mandy

    "At least as far as his media skills go, he gets A+++ from me"

    me too - the man's a master! A veritable Volpone ;0)

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  19. "The very fact that the law is an attempt to criminalise Muslim Women who are, in many aspects of their lives, already in a vlunerable position, for a 'tradition' which is imposed by a masculine clergy is entirely misplaced and circumvents how masculine ideology is foisted upon women so they are left in a lose-lose situation. "

    If it manages, long term, to end the practise in this country of wearing veils then that is very much a win-win though.

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  20. NapK:

    "I'm still here"!

    No probs - I saw it advertised by chance the other day and thought I might go.... I love the idea of people in the art world getting fooled by folk who are able to imitate the Masters!

    (they've stuck a few real ones in there just to confuse the viewers!)

    Enjoy your trip!

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  21. Jay - I really do fear that a ban would have two very negative effects:
    1) drive existing veil wearers indoors
    2) encourage other muslim women to wear the veil in solidarity.

    Its a short cut and short cuts to liberty too often end in its opposite I'm afraid.

    Take your point about identity and I think banks and similar institutuions would have a case for insisting on the removal of the veil as they insist that motor cyclists remove their helmets now.

    I believe the French legislation doesn't 'ban the burqa' - just bans covering the face.

    The trouble is it will be seen as marginalising an already marginalised community.

    I grant you their culture already does that, the ban just creates a sense of martyrdom and sections of the muslim community are already rather keen on that imho.

    Must go my (ailing?) cat has just caught a sparrow :(

    She's 11 and this is the first time she's caught one!

    Rescued it but I don't think it'll survive.

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  22. Jay:

    They need to be tackling the fundamentals of why these women are marginalised - not criminalise them for their mode of religious dress. That's why it is in my opinion the wrong way to go about it, however odious it might be that Women are either willingly wearing the full veil, or being coerced it's not right to outlaw it in a draconian fashion.

    But we're not going to agree. ;(

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  23. Anne:

    You have to let the cat do it's worst - one of my cats is an ace rat-slayer and I've had to sit with earplugs in while she kills one she's brought in ;( hideous.

    I don't think the poor little Sparrow will survive the shock...

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  24. @LaRitournelle:

    More like Machiavelli, maybe, or The Leopard. Or perhaps Faustus. But anyway, I enjoyed Volpone, we studied it at school for English O-level.

    @everyone:

    Re. the veil: goodness, it’s a tricky conundrum isn’t it, what’s a good Muslim girl to do? In truth, I don’t really give a shit either way. If women want to walk around dressed up like big black pillar boxes in the heat of the day in some sort of religious equivalent of "No jeans, no trainers", I don’t really see it’s my place to lecture them on it.

    O tempora, o mores!

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  25. Just read the Gold thing, it's not too awful actually. Just columnist flim flam. I looked at the Moat fb group this morning too. Wouldn't trust most of the posters to sit on the karzey right without a drawing to help them. Hapless fuckwits most.

    Now: what links the type of government that bans the burka and the type of government that seeks to ban facebook groups ?

    Complete lack of grasping wider social issues, and failing to get to grips with the socio-economic shitstorm they and their cohort helped whip up. Instead - feverishly, petulantly trying to micro-manage people's behaviour.

    Now: there is a certain face to dissent that is dumb, illiterate, cocky, stupid, uncomunicative and childish. But it's still part of dissenting. Trying to shut it up or stifle it looks like a crap teacher who has lost control of the classroom and is bathetically picking on the gobby arsewit who has made a feeble joke at his expense - while missing the real bullying drug abuse, harrassment and vandalism going on right behind him.

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  26. PhilippaB

    It is not quite broken yet, but give me a bit more time and I can probably manage to wreck it good and proper.

    Actually, I have changed things. I did send a note to everyone - you know, the millions of users - as a warning, but did not really expect it to reach or be noticed by all concerned.

    It will mean (from my point of view) easier software management and should mean people will be able to have access to other blogs/sites within the group.

    Please go ahead on UT2 and I should have things sorted out soon, perhaps during today.

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  27. @BW:

    ”…Now: there is a certain face to dissent that is dumb, illiterate, cocky, stupid, uncomunicative and childish…”

    That’s my favourite sort. Flicking V’s at coppers below the level of the dashboard while driving never gets old…

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  28. SwiftyBoy
    Bang on. Shouting "show us yer monkey" at vicars too.

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  29. bitterweed
    "feverishly, petulantly trying to micro-manage people's behaviour"
    bang on

    atomboy - good oh! just let me know when it's recovered...

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  30. "I believe the French legislation doesn't 'ban the burqa' - just bans covering the face."

    Yeah i wouldnt support any direct ban on veils, only a generic ban on face covering (with obvious common sense exemptions). But firstly, i agree, we wont agree on this. Secondly - it wouldnt ever happen in this country, we do not have the secular foundations France does and liberalism is still held as the key to all evils (except economic, then liberalism is itself the evil).

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  31. La Rit - they always die of shock merciful amnyway as they almost certainly get internal injuries when they are first caught. Just didn't want feathers and blood all over the house! I have (hopefully) just sold it!

    So I had to get it out of the house, normally I'd let her get on with it in the garden but she's not well at the mo and its raining cats and dogs(as it were!)

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  32. Ah, a doozy up from the ex shadow spokesmen on cheeky asteroids - here

    "for the last two years, I've been trying to get someone to arrest me for using one of these curious and exceptionally convenient two-wheeled devices."

    So, Lembit Opik can't get arrested. Breaking news, there...

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  33. @BW, @Philippa

    There's an echo of that micro-management in the argument about the Food Standards Agency. You can see the point in an agency that regulates quality standards in food, in the sense that it could penalise Kraft for putting paraffin in Dairylea cheese triangles to save cash, say. But WTF is it doing telling people what to eat while watching the World Cup, or how much caffeine or salt they ought to restrict themselves to?

    Bloody mission creep.

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  34. Jay - the much-vaunted laicite in France does sometimes look like 'default cultural catholicism, put up with the prods and jews, anti-anything muslim'. big fuss at the moment about plans to build a mosque in marseille - there actually aren't that many 'public' mosques in france, from what i can gather, despite the size of the population, because these are seen as 'incoming'. now, obviously the hundreds of churches scattered around are longer-standing, but nobody seems to complain about them.

    confess i am a bit surprised by the debate actually going to a vote - particularly one that goes further than what the public would seem to be in favour of. given a) the scale of the 'problem', b) the likely response of the constitutional court and c) and what appeared to be an immediate dismissal of any contrary voices arguing that liberty should apply first to the person and then to society.

    the argument is effectively that women wearing a niqab are automatically to be assumed to be oppressed / not acting out of any free will at all.

    i find it difficult to understand how any woman would freely choose to wear a niqab, but in the absence of direct pressure (from the law in other countries, from family in france) then the indirect cultural pressures don't seem to me to warrant entirely dismissing a woman's choice, however strange it may seem....

    have probably said that before...

    would imagine constitutional court will find that the total ban is unconstitutional due to freedom of thought / religion but they could go with the initial plan (no face covering in state spaces). whether or not they could suggest that as an alternative if it wasn't a draft law, though...could mean the whole thing gets struck down.

    hence my surprise that they have gone the whole way and not put a plan B in place.

    anyway.

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  35. 0/

    Thanks for the good wishes and kind comments.

    Life has a big hole in it at the minute and I'm simply doing a lot of walking to fill the emptiness

    Mungo is being great but even he can't cast two shadows.

    Given the calculus of pain and pleasure - she gave me such great pleasure and affection that the pain is a small price, well worth paying for 15 most enjoyable years together. She was one fine dog and a civilising companion who got me through some dark days.

    Mungo misses his ears being washed by her but I'm sure we'll both get through the shadow. Things just feel dim and murky at the moment.

    Regards.

    Swifty - ".. But you never, ever, ever, get to see beyond the shiny, slightly sinister surface....". You missed slimy out.

    The ubercreep Mandelson was one of the reasons I (and many others) left the Labour Party..

    Personally I couldn't give him A+++ for anything but I could be be persuaded to give him 240V+++ to the testicles..


    Laters everybody I'm away for some more walking.

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  36. Deano,

    Wonderful to hear from you.

    Love to you & Mungo.

    x

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  37. deano - good to hear from you, hope walking helps. a lovely tribute.

    and good work on Mandy. hehehehehhe.

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  38. @deano:

    ”…Life has a big hole in it at the minute and I'm simply doing a lot of walking to fill the emptiness…

    Yeah, like most blokes I suppose, I do quite a bit of that too. Not as much as when I was a teenager but still, it’s good to keep your hand in, so to speak.

    Oh sorry, you said “walking”.

    Only jesting. Take it easy old man.

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  39. Where are my posts goin ?? I'll try again.

    Deano
    Hope things improve, lost my gloriously daft/ approaching genius (!) 15 year old mutt two years ago. A very ammusing little Jack Russel. She was a good pal.

    Small hound, big big hole.

    Catch up soon hopefully and blow the froth off a few ales ?

    Right, got to work now.
    Laters.

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  40. Hey Deanno, good to see you here, hope the pain turns to fond memories soon. Not too far to walk up to the border you old tramp. Yourself and Mungo are always welcome to a warm bed, a feed, and a brew here. Take care pal.

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  41. Morning Deano

    glad to see you around again. Walking is good but don't stay too solitary. You're always welcome down here remember.

    Swifty

    My ex old man was once pulled over for making "facial grimaces" at two passing plods. He wasn't as it happens but they made sure he did from then on.

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  42. @sheff:

    Walking past PCSOs while scratching my chin with the V sign is one of my favourite pastimes. I mean, what’s the worst they can do if they notice – call a proper copper and “tell on me”?

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  43. I'd probably settle for this actually:

    "I do however not support a ban. I do support a ban in public buildings, a ban on driving and any form of activity that impaired vision is harmful, a ban on refusing to remove a veil when required to by a boarder guard, the right to refuse entry or service to anyone who chooses to conceil their identity."

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  44. Good to hear from you Deano, look after yourself. x

    You can't turn the telly on this morning without Mandelson popping up, I was hoping he was going to be on loose women but he wimped out of that one.

    Sorry if my posts were a bit unclear last night I was a bit emotional (ladylike version of pissed). ;)

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  45. jen
    Mandelson's only role in life is to further the cause of Peter Mandelson.

    It does make me chuckle that Blair and Kinnock are both furious about the book.

    Hope Steve Bell picks up on that...

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  46. "Yeah i wouldnt support any direct ban on veils, only a generic ban on face covering (with obvious common sense exemptions)."

    Whose common sense, Jay? Yours? A policeman's a magistrate's? If you had to rely on mine, it would be an even more troubled world. This law, as with all silly laws (Clause 28) will not work.

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  47. Hi Deano,
    good to hear from you matey...and take it easy...

    and that 240 volts seems a pretty good idea.......!!

    here's a vid for all

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  48. Deano, keep it on the road, much love for you, our kid.

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  49. gandolfo, that was effin hilarious, nice one! Proper satire.

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  50. After a morning of renewed Internet up-and-down, I finally caved in and jammed an Ethernet cable into the router to see what was happening. And lo, a lot of its internal settings were screwed despite multiple factory resets. In particular, the wireless channel had been switched to one of the unreliable ones, which can be interfered with by someone microwaving a Ginster's pasty two streets away while the computer's WiFi chip hangs on to the signal by its fingertips.

    So, now safely back on channel 11, I have re-entered the virtual world.

    Good, innit?

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  51. The editor's daughter gets a chance to shine today over on CiF.

    There are links to (I think, I did not click them) Winthorpe's articles on how a chap dresses, so that makes it all OK. You started this downward plunge, it seems to say, so how can you blame us for accelerating it?

    The shiny world of women's fashion is not a natural fit for Comment is free. But before you dismiss it in favour of an article on the latest dismal dealings of the coalition government, please take a moment to peruse these fine articles on the pressing issues of tweed and ties. You may now see why sartorial issues are more important to this once great nation than our crumbling economy or the demise of a proper democracy. In an attempt to redress the balance, I feel it only fair that we turn our minds to the not at all burning issue of summer style.

    Next week, two Jaffa Cakes, a meerkat and SpecialBrut provide a people's panel to examine the political significance of bags and shoes, with reference, of course, to Mrs Thacther and Theresa May.

    Meanwhile, in other news, Gazza will soon release a new song, based on an old favourite.

    Here is a sneak preview:

    One man went to mow,
    Went to mow a meadow,
    One man and his dog, Spot, a bottle of pop, a dressing-gown, a thick jacket, a chicken dinner, a tin of lager, some bread and two fishing-rods
    Went to mow a meadow.

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  52. PS Glad to hear you are OK, Deano.

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  53. gandolfo

    Tasty link there matey ! Bloody amazing !

    Montana
    I think we need a Link of the Month award !

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  54. Morning all,

    Deano

    Great to hear from you my friend.
    Best wishes from this temporarily displaced fellow East Yorkshireman!!

    Anne

    Hope the moving process is going well!!

    Atomboy

    I got the message about OCN, and tried to reply, although it looked like I may have only succeeded in sending a message to myself. Which is, I appreciate, spectacularly stupid, even for me....

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  55. Atomboy
    Deary me, they really are a gang of prep-school amatuers aren't they ? Everyone knows that gimp masks and strap-ons are to be the de riguer atire at the annual CiF awards.

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  56. "Whose common sense, Jay? Yours? A policeman's a magistrate's? I"

    Got it in one, Habib - thats how the law works. A policeman can overlook a crime on common sense grounds, as can a jury. So no, not "my" common sense.

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  57. Bitterweed

    I read that quickly and thought strap-ons must be connected with shoes. Then I realised that I do not know what a gimp mask is. Then I remembered something to do with strap-ons from an educational video I saw years ago.

    I think fashion may not be my strong point.

    James

    You did send the email and I received it. It probably skipped back into your inbox of its own accord because it thought, well, you know, you might forget or press the wrong button or something.

    There is nothing technically stopping me from making it all work again, but I have found a quirk which may not be cured for some months, which means I feel the need (for my own sense of orderliness and amusement) to think of another domain name from which to suspend it all.

    The problem is, I am useless as making up names.

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  58. Atomboy
    Use "Google Image" mate. But not at work. Hell no.

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  59. Afternoon all

    @Anne- re the burqa you make some very valid points.My opposition to it is twofold.Firstly if i am a doctor,teacher,employer,shopkeeper etc i should have the right to insist that the person i,m engaging with shows their face.-unless there are health of facial disfigurement reasons why they have it covered up.And as an individual i have the right to refuse to engage with anyone who doesn,t show their face.

    And secondly i view the small but increasing number of women wearing the burqa as a sign of the growing vulnerability of women within Britains increasingly segregated Muslim communities.For it seems to me that many of the Muslim women who go public in loudly demanding the right to wear a burqa are actually White and Black Caribbean women who have converted to Islam.Or possibly young possibly radicalised British Muslim women whose mothers don,t wear a burqa but are wearing it as a statement.The women forced to wear it really don,t have a voice.

    When i was growing up in East London it was actually almost unheard of for Muslim women to cover their faces.And most of the younger women didn,t even wear a hijab.That seemed to start changing in the 80,s when Muslim youth in FE Colleges started bullying young female muslim students to start wearing a hijab.And we now have a situation today where for a significant number of Muslims-of both sexes-a woman who doesn,t wear a hijab is no better than a prostitute.So my concern is that Muslim women living in Britains increasingly segregated and impoverished Muslim communities may also come under increasing pressure to wear the burqa.And because of their vulnerable status many more of them may have no choice but to comply.

    @Deano-great to hear from you.Take it easy man!

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  60. "Got it in one, Habib - thats how the law works. A policeman can overlook a crime on common sense grounds, as can a jury."

    You mean they can ignore the law?

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  61. I didnt say they could "ignore the law", i said the law is flexible enough to allow for common sense both from police and the judicial system. Am i mistaken?

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  62. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  63. "For it seems to me that many of the Muslim women who go public in loudly demanding the right to wear a burqa are actually White and Black Caribbean women who have converted to Islam.Or possibly young possibly radicalised British Muslim women whose mothers don,t wear a burqa but are wearing it as a statement.The women forced to wear it really don,t have a voice."

    Bang on, hence my comment last night about funding and supporting organisations like Southall Black Sisters

    http://www.southallblacksisters.org.uk/

    You'll never hear their "voice" on Question Time, Moral Maze and all those other mainstream current affairs talking shops, same as you'll never get a social worker talking about working with oppressed women in ghettoised areas of Britain.

    They work with the ones who are afraid of being taken out of the country, who are beaten, forced into marriages, who have been kept out of school.

    Too close to reality. We should ask them what they think really.

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  64. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  65. BW - i like a lot of the SBS stuff, but to my knowledge they have never taken a position on the veil.

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  66. They won "secularists of the year" not long ago, as memory recalls.

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  67. JR
    Hmm, true. They probably don't want to scare off clients of theirs in very vulnerable positions... they are a support group rather than a lobby group after all...

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  68. Jay,
    "i said the law is flexible enough to allow for common sense both from police and the judicial system. Am i mistaken?"

    I think you are. Nadia Eweida would agree with me.

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  69. Bitterweed/Jay

    I think it,s probably safe to say that Southhall Balck Sisters aren,t exactly enamoured with the face veil.But more imoportantly it is grass roots organisations like this that deal with the politically incorrect realities for all Black and Asian women in this countriy.And whilst they don,t solely deal with Muslim women i think you,ll find that Muslim women are often the hardest for them to help.Because they are living in highly segregated communities where they are under the control of not just husbands but also his family as well.And although we hear something of the plight of young British Muslim women the most vulnerable are often the young brides who enter this country in their thousands every year.Many have a poor grasp of English and live in communities which are quick to close ranks if 'outsiders' try to intervene.So if they,re told to wear a burka they damn well wear a burka!And if they try and assert themselves they are beaten not just by the husband but often by his female in-laws as well-the latter of whom can sometimes view the young bride as nothing more than a household servant.

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  70. Habib

    Police do make common sense exceptions, they do not arrest everyone 100% of the time they witness a technical infringement no matter how small or justified. Juries do not, by nature, convict 100% of crimes - juries can, and do, excuse on common sense grounds. Your link is *one* example of something that wasnt excused on what would be, to many, common sense grounds.

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  71. And like clockwork, Paul chimes in with his usual bollox. Jeez, seriously, Paul why do you talk about muslims in such a shitty way, all the time? I mean, come on, just say you hate them for fuck's sake.

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  72. Jay, will you forgive a woman for wearing a veil when you have banned it?

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  73. Why would it be up to me to forgive? I am neither policeman nor juror. If i were sitting on a jury i'd take a, you guessed it, common sense approach. And yes, that instance would be *my* common sense.

    Would pro-veilers take a lenient/common sense view on a shopkeeper taken to court for religious discrimination because they wouldnt allow a veiled woman in their shop? Or is it right to impose your morality on others when its shopkeepers rather than religious people?

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  74. It's your law, Jay and she's broken it, so what are you going to do?

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  75. @Jen:

    (ladylike version of pissed). ;)

    Can I borrow that one? I had a horrible vision of myself very pissed last Sunday night about 2 days later.... shudders.....

    PS - Been trying to finish my CV and write and application... got behind in my replies to everyone - apols ;)

    ReplyDelete
  76. My law? Think you've got a bit muddle there, but anyway - if it were law, and i a juror, i would make a decision based on the case, Habib - as i have just been trying to tell you, law has flexibility (and with good reason).

    ReplyDelete
  77. Would you convict the shopkeeper with *your* law, Habib?

    ReplyDelete
  78. "It's your law, Jay and she's broken it, so what are you going to do? "

    Thwow her to the floor vewy wuffly centuwian !

    ReplyDelete
  79. Heyhabib

    I try and make allowances for the fact you aren,t the brightest button in the box.But do me a favour and keep your pathetic accusations to yourself.If you spent a bit more time engaging in the 'real world' you,d know that there are plenty of enlightened Muslims who agree with me.This is not about attacking Islam but about challenging certain cultural attitudes within Britains Muslim communites that can have a negative effect on SOME Muslim
    women.

    ReplyDelete
  80. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Copy all that Paul (15:27)

    But if this is the case in Paris and Marseille, how the feck are they going to succesfully prosecute these husbands / fathers / uncles for enforcing this ?

    It's a bullshit law if ever I've seen one; it'll just hurt the already silenced and bewildered, while getting a self congratulatory big pat on the back from the centrists and rightists who think they're actually doing something. As if.

    ReplyDelete
  82. @Atomboy (13h46):

    Rusbridger Minor's effort is a bit of a clunker.

    I can take "winsome", and I can tolerate "fey", I rather like "arch" and I certainly have a soft spot for "cute", but chucking all four into an article reminds me of nothing so much as, say, toffee meringue pudding with chocolate sauce and cream.

    I like her little webcam-derived avatar, though.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Paul, being slightly of the muslim faith and living up north, with mostly muslim relatives, I, of course, have no idea of the subjects you are so knowledgable about.

    Jay, you haven't answered the question asked, what's the punishment for a woman wearing a veil when it's against your law? My answer is any shopkeeper has a right to refuse entry (sadly I know this to be true, but I am a bit of a ruffian.)

    BW "Oh and should I throw her to the floor again?"

    ReplyDelete
  84. A Muppet speaks...from a bedsit in Scunthorpe

    "I personally find the animosity towards Margaret Thatcher irrational now that she has been out of power for twenty years and it's a full thirty years since her government started trashing the manufacturing sector.
    Yet so many on these pages hate her guts as though in twenty years no other government has had a chance to rectify the wrongs.

    And these wrongs were nothing compared to the Nazi occupation."

    erm...so should I personally find the animosity towards the Nazis 'irrational' now that it's more than sixty years since they exterminated anyone or occupied anywhere?

    In fact..I find any animosity towards anything irrational when it's more than 5 minutes since it happened..cos er..y'know..it's all water under the bridge by then..let bygones be bygones..etc

    ReplyDelete
  85. Oh yes. She has spiwwit ! A touch of dewwing-do !

    ReplyDelete
  86. Hi MF
    Which tranny we talking here ? The failed actor or the tea boy ?

    ReplyDelete
  87. "you haven't answered the question asked, what's the punishment for a woman wearing a veil when it's against your law?"

    That wasnt your question - you said would i forgive her. I dont quite follow your phrase "your law" - it isnt my law, it is a law proposed in various forms in a number of European country and one that already exists, in various forms, in actual *Muslim* countries. In what possible sense is this "my law", or is it just a rhetorical sleight of hand to imply i am trying to force my own personal views on the entire country?

    So i presume the proposal is for it to incur a fine, and a fairly small one at that - like plenty of other laws, like littering (cue fatuous examples like an old woman too frail to bend down and pick up her crisp packet, "are you going to arrest her Jay?!?!?").

    If you support that shopkeepers right, you cannot simultaneously support the right of the veiled to enter shops unhindered. So you also favour certain restrictions?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Heyhabib

    ''Paul, being slightly of the muslim faith and living up north, with mostly muslim relatives, I, of course, have no idea of the subjects you are so knowledgable about.''

    Well then you would know that the Muslim communities in towns like Bradford and Oldham are highly segregated and suffer some of the worst problems of social deprivation and alienation in the country.You would know that around 60% of British Muslims in these towns have arranged marriages with a spouse from the syb-continent.You would know that a high % of the spouses from Pakistan and Bangladesh are from rural areas and are uneducated and have a poor grasp at most of the English language.You would know of the growing concern at the number of arranged marriages between first cousins in the ethnic Pakistani community.You would know that 70% of working aged Muslim women in Britain are 'inactive' whislt 14% of those classified as 'active' are in receipt of unemployment benefits. You would know that irrespective of ethnicity Britians Muslim communities have the highest % of working aged men in receipt of unemployment and disability benefits.You would know that Britians Muslim ccommunities have the highest% of working aged people classified as unskilled.And that fuelling this pool of unskilled is the number of unskilled spouses who come into this country every year.

    There are many left wing activists including Muslims who recognize that the high level of arranged/forced marriages in Britains Muslim communities are importing poverty into these communties.And that maybe-i repeat maybe-that povery and social alienation is fanning the flames of radicalism.And part of that process of raddicalism may manifest itself in increassing numbers of Muslim women -living in deprived segregated ccommunities-being pressured into wearing a burqa.

    This is not an attack on all Muslims Habib.It is merely using the facts to try and understand what is going on.

    And BTW the fact you are Muslim doesn,t make you an expert on all things Muslim.I was bought up a Catholic and i don,t pretend to know about all things Catholic.

    ReplyDelete
  89. @monkeyfish:

    I know what you mean, I bear grudges for ever. An example – when my wife was pregnant, and we didn’t know whether Jr was male or female, we started thinking about names, like you do. It went a bit like this:

    Her: David?
    Me: No. David Johnson. I was at secondary school with him. Speccy four eyed twat. Smelly.
    Her: Patrick?
    Me: No. Patrick Fahy. Nicked my best Britains diecast Kuebelwagen when I was a kid and wouldn’t give it back. Pushed me in the nettles. Twat.
    Her: William?
    Me: King Billy? No fucking chance.
    Her: Jesus Adolf Hermann Josef Mussolini?
    Me: Hmm... that's not got a bad ring to it...

    ReplyDelete
  90. No Jay, I just understand laws and how yours would be unworkable. That's all.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Paul, ever been to those places?

    ReplyDelete
  92. "No Jay, I just understand laws and how yours would be unworkable."

    Have they repealed it in Tunisia or Turkey due to this unworkability you are certain of? Not to my knowledge.

    As i said earlier today, i am tending more to the "certain restrictions" (numerous, admittedly) approach rather than the initial outright ban on face coverings. But i still find it quite astonishing that people think a ban on masking your face in public and professional life is a monstrous infringement of liberty and so crazy as to be unenforcable.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Yeah try arguing against Tunisian (put in place by a tyrant called Habib ha ha) and Turkish laws, see how far that get's you,

    If your viewpoint is worth considering. Maybe we should ban homosexuality because Zimbabwe, Malawi and many others think it is wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  94. Habib

    ''Paul, ever been to those places?''

    I don,t know Oldham but i do know Bradford and Keighley very well.I have also spent all my life living in ,around or near neighbourhoods in London with large diverse Muslim communities.And although it may sound both crass and defensive for me to say so i also know a lot of Muslims.Muslims BTW you don,t resort to accusations of Islamaphobia everytime they are in disagreement with someone.

    It,s about time you grew up Habib.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Paul, I bow to your superior knowledge, but have a unbearable urge to say fuck off (sorry)

    ReplyDelete
  96. Sorry, Paul, just really had to go, I shouldn't have been so obtuse.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Your knowledge of Keighley and Bradford remarkably conicides with BNP literature.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Habib

    You really are a pathetic little scrote aren,t you.You continually accuse me of Islamaphobia and not once have you backed up your accusations.

    I used to work for a national company selling various stuff to the education sector.And when i stayed up in Bradford and Keighley on business i got to know quite a few people pretty well.And it was really interesting to hear what educated Muslims and non Muslims alike had to say about life in their segregated towns.

    Anyway don,t resist your unbearable urge to tell me to fuck off.You,re clearly full of shit anyway and surely it,s better out than in.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Habib - tbh I didn't read Paul's comments that way at all. As he says SOME Muslim women do suffer as he describes, the problem of young brides with no English may not be widespread but in families where they are discouraged from learning English it can negatively effect the educational progress of their children. How can they survive in the west living by the rules of rural Pakistan?

    Surely you are not denying that such problems exist in the muslim community or that there have been tragic cases where women have suffered violence (sometimes fatal) when they have attempted to liberate themselves from such oppression?

    I know from my own experience that such cases are not the norm but they happen and to deny this makes the denier part of the problem.

    I am just puzzled why Paul's post got that reaction. My interpretation of it means I'll get the same one, if so - so be it. I don't deny the truth to be 'politically correct' not my style.

    I don't think white working class people are perfect either - plenty of oppression of women in some of the wwc sink estates. Its different but just as wrong of course it is. Its not true of all wwc people either just some.

    But we were talking about the banning of the burqa (rights and wrongs of) no?

    The oppression of women is a historical fact in all human cultures above the hunter gatherer stage of economic development. Its easier to see in other cultures of course. I once had a Somali student who was very shocked by the way an Indian student in my class was treated by her mother in law.

    Oh, wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as ithers see us! .... as Burns said

    As a white British woman brought up in the 40's and 50's I was shocked when I realised the disadvantages we still had even in the 70's- this was after 'consciousness raising'. I thought all was well with my world - really it wasn't then. Better (but not perfect) now.

    We all need to learn to be critical of our own cultures. Agreed where real prejudice exists its harder to do but still necessary.

    ReplyDelete
  100. With the allusions to Bruxelles being a bloke, I couldn't resist this on the BellaM thread....

    Bruxelles

    I just bought a beaded chiffon beach dress that skims the ankles and looks great over a swimsuit

    Perfect for covering that annoying man lump in the bottoms then?

    hehehehe

    ReplyDelete
  101. "You continually accuse me of Islamaphobia and not once have you backed up your accusations."

    Sorry, Paul, I'm not re-reading your posts, too much work the first time, anyone can look back and see.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Habib
    You sure none of what Paul has any basis in fact ? Mate, check out Ann Cryer's work in Keighly for example.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/bradford/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8678000/8678528.stm

    ReplyDelete
  103. La Ritournelle
    That was very rude !!!

    Heh heh.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Heyhabib

    ''Your knowledge of Keighley and Bradford remarkably conicides with BNP literature.''

    The statistics i quoted you are easily accessible from the Office of National Statistics-which as far as i know is not affiliated to the BNP.And as far as my subjective knowledge of Bradford and Keighley is concerned that was accumulated as a result of building up business relationships with decent Muslims and non Muslims alike.

    You can accuse me all you like of being a BNP supporter.It,s so far from the truth you wouldn,t know.And unlike you i suspect i,ve got the battle scars to prove it!!!

    ReplyDelete
  105. annetan42,
    I just don't like it when someone disguises their hatred with projected reason.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Habib

    "If your viewpoint is worth considering. Maybe we should ban homosexuality because Zimbabwe, Malawi and many others think it is wrong?"

    Really, get a grip. My argument is not "enact this law because Turkey has", it is "the law does not seem to be unworkable based on evidence from those countries who already have it". Christ. If thats the level you want to debate at then we might as well leave it.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Sorry, Jay, I highlighted workable laws if the regime was right, such as in Tunisia and Turkey. I think this law would be unworkable in any part of the EU.

    ReplyDelete
  108. You made the analogy that maybe we should "ban homosexuality because Zimbabwe, Malawi and many others think it is wrong" - clearly a total misreading of my argument.

    Your other point was that its hard to object to laws in those countries - point taken. But that doesnt mean a law is unworkable - a workable law means a law it is plausible to enforce, it doesnt mean a law that you can readily voice objection to.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Hello all

    The great face covering debate - an appeal to the ECHR will be the next step I imagine.

    ReplyDelete
  110. It looks like we can now predict just how The Guardian is going to handle the coalition government, the poor-bashing and the global economic meltdown.

    This from Ms Reed:

    Right - coming back to the newbies thread. The following is up for discussion, and I would like your input.

    Some readers have asked us to publish more optimistic and/or inspiring articles. I see where they're coming from, as the news cycle tends to be doom-and-gloom-centered. Thinking about it, I thought one thing I would like to introduce to Cif would be a series of short pieces on, quite simply, what works. This could be written by Cif readers and our usual ATL contributors alike.

    There are many people in the UK (and abroad) who are giving their time to volunteering. People who change things in their communities. People whose activism and initiatives are changing things locally for the better. There are also things that perhaps our council members, doctors, neighbourhoods, teachers, sport coaches, artists, unionists etc are getting right, for a change. Things that make you pause and think: this is a good place to live in. Things that make you think that grassroots changes are possible.

    I think it would be useful and interesting to highlight those things on Cif if we can.

    What do you think? Thoughts welcome.


    Gegenbeispiel has pointed out that volunteering frequently simply underpins capitalism with free labour and takes away jobs, quite apart from the fact that it is now viewed as a moneymaking wheeze for big business and the embarrassing fact that without people giving their time and skills for no financial reward, the state and society would collapse.

    Of course, CiF will be lauding its pet or approved ideological pressure groups and ignoring the unpleasant nitty-gritty of the process.

    Fluffy, vacuous, feel-good newsmongering always happens during recessions, so CiF will happily find its true feet.

    Also expect lots of pieces on how much fun it is to make do and mend, shabby-chic and how it is perfectly possible to run a car for more than two years without having to buy a new one and how good it feels to be saving the planet and not indulging in funny, old-fashioned, pre-recession conspicuous consumption.

    In other words, the usual self-righteous, mutually congratulatory claptrap from people who think the recession is just a stream of laughs and larks.

    As Alisdair said, they have never really met anyone from the working-classes, so the whole process is a bit like a Famous Five adventure.

    For every ConDem politician's arsehole, there will be a willing, wriggling Guardian tongue just aching to be deployed.

    ReplyDelete
  111. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  112. Give me my dustbins back, Google, you bastard!

    ReplyDelete
  113. "Revised Catholic rules put ordination of women in same category of crime as sex abuse of minors "

    More little pearls of wisdom and good sense from the world of religion...

    ReplyDelete
  114. Jay, I can see a mile off that this law is unworkable, very surprised that you can't. I guess the coming years will prove one of us wrong - if it is ever enacted.

    ReplyDelete
  115. I would say problematic rather than unworkable, but im pretty sure it would never be enacted in this country anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  116. I hope you're right.

    I also hope women stop wearing the damn things.

    :-)

    ReplyDelete
  117. Just come back from short - very short - walk in pouring rain.

    Flip-flop problems added to by voluminous, brightly coloured maxi- dress - all the rage - tripping me up, clinging fondly to my bum . Worst of all - it is completely unmanageable in high winds.

    We fashion slaves never get the sympathy and understanding we deserve. I am lobbying for a counselling service on the NHS.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Atomboy

    Have had a quick look on waddya and a certain poster is asking for a thread headed--

    'Pyjamas versus Nighties'

    Now i,m as broad-minded as the next man but i,m puzzled as to why another man would ask for such a thread.Especially as a man would look especially silly in a nightie of the baby doll variety with all his bits hanging out.

    ReplyDelete
  119. "I also hope women stop wearing the damn things. "

    Amen.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Leni

    Think yourself lucky.

    One woman wearing a maxi-dress was actually swept into the sky by a sudden gust of high wind and was subsequently shot down on the assumption that she was an enemy terrorist aircraft.

    Apparently, there are also reports of crowds gathering around a Scunthorpe transport cafe, waving bits of hardboard in an attempt to create sufficient wind to blow a little waiter into oncoming traffic on the motorway.

    He is currently only being saved by the fact that the beads on his beach-dress are weighing him down.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Paul

    Yes, I took it he did not mean this Wee Willie Winkie variety of night-gown.

    I suppose the Wee Willie bit would still apply, though.

    ReplyDelete
  122. "One woman wearing a maxi-dress was actually swept into the sky by a sudden gust of high wind"

    I dont know what these "maxi dresses" are, silly name though.

    Anyway, on to important matters,

    Anyone else use Spotify at all? You cant get Commitments tunes on youtube, copyright i presume, found a brilliant Commitments tune on Spotify that isnt on the film - Thats the Way Love is, great vocals and nice electric piano (though not as nice as the Wurlitzer on 'Woodstock')

    ReplyDelete
  123. (Just parking the following here, away from the trigger-happy fingers of the work-experience people over at The Guardian):


    Jessica Reed

    "Some readers have asked us to publish more optimistic and/or inspiring articles. I see where they're coming from, as the news cycle tends to be doom-and-gloom-centered. Thinking about it, I thought one thing I would like to introduce to Cif would be a series of short pieces on, quite simply, what works. This could be written by Cif readers and our usual ATL contributors alike".

    Ahh yes, that's an absolutely brilliant idea!
    I mean, that news cycle, eh!? It's just rubbish!!!.

    All this stuff to be reported about benefits being cut, the mentally ill being forced to work, the disabled having to jump through hoops to prove they're worthy of a little additional help (not literally, obviously, although, give it time....), it just gets so awfully depressing!!

    I, for one, wholeheartedly support the idea!!
    I mean, really, who wants to know they're heading to hell in a hand basket anyway? Much better that we know what's working, right!?

    Because really, even though 'We're all in this together' and all that jazz, it just makes no sense that you should lose out on any advertising revenue by constantly rocking the coalition boat now, does it?

    More jaffa cakes!!

    Huzzah.....

    ReplyDelete
  124. Where's that lazy cunt bitterweed when you need him...

    ReplyDelete
  125. Sorry, just cracking one out.

    Back soon.

    ReplyDelete
  126. "Anyone else use Spotify at all? You cant get Commitments tunes on youtube, copyright i presume, found a brilliant Commitments tune on Spotify that isnt on the film - Thats the Way Love is, great vocals and nice electric piano (though not as nice as the Wurlitzer on 'Woodstock')"

    Hmm?

    ReplyDelete
  127. Jay

    I use Spotify and think it's very good.

    I like the "if you like this, you might like this" thing - similar groups or whatever it is.

    Actually, have not used it for weeks and weeks but that is because I go through phases with music, not because it is not good.

    Philippa and James

    Sorry, I have not fixed things yet.

    Just to show how much I care, though, I am now going to get cleaned up and settle down to watch Corrie.

    No, will do it soon. Promise.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Atomboy

    No problem.

    (I'm having to re-learn how to cope with multiple open tabs at the minute anyway, and struggling....)

    ReplyDelete
  129. Hi All

    deano--As turminder says, the memories will hopefully comfort you some. Of course this will take time, and Mungo can keep you company. Feel for you mate, take care.

    Not been posting much lately as I am chairing and organising a golf tournament for 240 players. Proceeds to go to Haitian foodbank so it's very important to see it through properly. This keeps me out of the house quite a lot.

    Later folks.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Good shout guys. Just finally got round to downloading spotify. There's MILLIONS of good shit there

    ReplyDelete
  131. http://open.spotify.com/track/5ZBAlRjOAvVdnvWgRrQZN9

    ReplyDelete
  132. Atom

    I have never tried that feature to be honest, i dont often use spotify as cant find a way of nabbing tunes from it for the ipod.

    BW - there is huge amounts of free songs on spotify, and it streams instantly - really good program, and all paid for with the odd advert between songs.

    ReplyDelete
  133. You can pretty much find any song from anywhere, Jay, although I am missing "Fabulous Beast" by The Poppy Factory, is that on there? I might sign up if it is.

    ReplyDelete
  134. @Jay

    I dont know what these "maxi dresses" are, silly name though

    Well, if you were a little girl in the very last days of the 60's and a slightly bigger girl in the early 70's - they were the thing!

    ReplyDelete
  135. Oh God, the Simpson's are doing 'Footloose' a film I've thankfully never had the misfortune to see... (much though I lurve Mr Bacon and that lovely body he's attached to)

    ReplyDelete
  136. In Jamaica they're called Maxi Priests

    I'll get me coat...

    ReplyDelete
  137. The only Poppy Factory on there is 'Counted', so doesnt look like it, but it does have an awful lot of tunes.

    LaRit - i just had a look via google images - wouldnt suit me at all i dont think.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Oh BW, you really don't want to see the Morris Maxi. Horrible dance.

    Can you get my coat, too?

    ReplyDelete
  139. Deano - feel for you, mate. Dog-sized holes are very large. Glad you posted today; I was wondering if you were OK.

    Dresses of any sort are an abomination.

    Pyjamas or nightie? Who the fuck wears clothes to bed???

    ReplyDelete
  140. Cheers for looking, Jay, guess I'll just live with this one for now.

    ReplyDelete
  141. @Jay

    Are you using a Mac? You can capture stuff from Spotify using Audio Hijack from Rogue Amoeba if so - the free download version can handle recordings up to 10 minutes long.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Christ Habib, people upload songs to youtube from TAPE? Not a bad song.

    PC sadly, Peter, though i presume some similar freeware exists somewhere on the interwebz...

    Right back later.

    ReplyDelete
  143. thaumaturge

    Pyjamas or nightie? Who the fuck wears clothes to bed???

    So, you mean most people don't wear a duffel coat, waders and a sou'wester?

    ReplyDelete
  144. @Jay

    That's a shame; Rogue Amoeba stuff is good. I'll have a look around for reliable PC equivalents.

    ReplyDelete
  145. deano

    Glad to hear from you.

    Jay

    You could try Audacity, it was fine on my PC.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Habib - can you help me out here? Exactly what evidence do you have that Paul is Islamophobic? I really just can't see it from his posts on this thread.

    Without pointing to such evidence you come over as someone who reacts to any criticism of the muslim community as 'islamophobia'.

    It smacks of 'we keep our problems to ourselves' and attck outsiders who criticise us. Its a bit like what GIYUS do on I/P threads - criticise Israel and your an antisemite or if youre a jew youre a self hating one.

    It stops reasoned debate and keeps people stucj in a problem we should all be helping to solve.

    The thing we need to remember about the internet is we are not just speaking to the person we reply to, we are speaking to the many others who simply lurk here.

    Thats why I sometimes come over all 'teaching grandma to suck eggs' when discussing socialism. I have them in mind too.

    ReplyDelete
  147. OH dear keeps people STUCK in a problem!

    ReplyDelete
  148. @MsChin

    I didn't think that Audacity captured streams, but on checking I find that it now does. So yeah, that would work. Depending on your sound hardware, you might need a cable to run from line out to line in.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Evenin all

    Love the idea of surreptitious V signs at coppers. Don't tell speedy though...

    I don't wear anything in bed unless it is bloody freezing, but the other half has to wear at least a pyjama top no matter how bloody hot it is. Then I wake up in the night with his half of the quilt on top of mine... grrrrr....

    I've just checked, though, and it isn't grounds for divorce. :o)

    ReplyDelete
  150. The Guardian's now decided that charging up-front for University is a good way for The government to help the poor......


    Brilliant!

    ReplyDelete
  151. BW:

    Who on earth releases a brilliant record on a white lable, in a white cover, which has one possibly two brilliant tracks and which cost 79 pence in a charity shop? (not my purchase incidentally)

    That is a true underground toon ;0)

    ReplyDelete
  152. Habib

    like anne I haven't read anything in Paul's comments that suggest that his is islamophobic and as anne says it very easy to brandish words around like that just because someone disagrees with an aspect of a religion or cultyral practice. It could be argued that people that don't want a ban or laws restricting the wearing of niqabs and burqas are mysoginists.

    anyway for me that's all I want to say on the subject.....

    James

    nice post to Jessica on "lets just amuse ourselves with banality while the country crumbles thread"

    also noticed quite a lot of posts on the musclesfrombrussels Goodwinesque post....!

    ReplyDelete
  153. annetan42
    of course I can help you out.

    Make your own mind up, it's that simple.

    No evidence, no jury, no prosecution, no verdict. You have to make them up for yourself.

    The guilty and the innocent know who they are. If you find me guilty, so be it.

    ps: that's a way of saying don't make me look back through his posts... please???

    ReplyDelete
  154. gandolfo, likewise, it's your call.

    ReplyDelete
  155. BW:

    "In Jamaica they're called Maxi Priests" lol x

    I reckon there's already been a ban on them for quite some time already - soundsystems in the streets of Britain outlawed, they retreated into the private sphere and re-emerged as stonking car sound-systems.... round these 'ere parts, you got to hand it to people to find a way around things and still give the 'V' sign.... can't get done for a drive-through 'noise nuisance' ;0)

    ReplyDelete
  156. Cheers Gandolfo,

    Although, tbh, I don't think Ms Reed's talking to me.
    I wrote her an ever so lovely letter/suggestion t'other day, and yet have heard not one peep...!?

    ;0)

    ReplyDelete
  157. Atomboy

    So, you mean most people don't wear a duffel coat, waders and a sou'wester?

    Luxury! I make do with my rubber underwear.

    ReplyDelete
  158. musclesfrombrussels
    "In my youth I had a boyfriend whose father still bore the concentration camp number on his arm (he came out of Auschwitz at 14, the sole survivor of his family).

    I know older non-Jewish Belgians who still cannot bring themselves to visit Germany. I don't have that problem as I like Germany and visit it often but I personally cannot bring myself to attend a Wagner opera."

    ReplyDelete
  159. Habib

    I suggest if you can't be arsed to back up accusations with facts then don't make them just makes you look a prat.......

    James

    you naughty boy I have the some thang with MsReed...what did you suggest to her? I guess it wasn't a thread on some banality like "things that make me feel good that I'm alive"

    ReplyDelete
  160. This on WADDYA from SpongebobTerrorcore:


    "This is ridiculous.

    A poster above is allowed to express the opinion that people´s lives ruined under Thatcher shouldn´t moan because they didn´t live under the Nazis and my post calling this into question is the one deleted?!!

    There was no swearing, abuse or ad hom,it was purely based on what the poster said above.

    Comment is Free as long as you´re a made man/woman on here".


    Made me laugh!!

    ReplyDelete
  161. Gandolfo

    I left her a little letter on the last WADDYA

    ReplyDelete
  162. james

    no, no, no far too, how can I say......serious and conflictual best stick with "Peanut Butter or Marmite...do you love it or hate it"

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  163. I suspect you're right Gandolfo.

    Anything that could be banged out in an hour by one of the sixth-formers, and I may have stood a chance....

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  164. I think the "maxi dress" thread today was a new nadir, lower than any other nadir that could possibly be imagined.

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  165. "I suggest if you can't be arsed to back up accusations with facts then don't make them just makes you look a prat......."
    you bastards! I have to work for a bit.

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  166. I like Arec Baldwins post on the Queue of Suffering on Waddya, I was chatting to my sister the other day and we were trying to work out who were the most hated group of people in the country.

    We came up with the usual, fat single mother immigrants claiming benefits but then realised these women would only be hated by the right and we needed to come up with something that would put the left off them as well.

    At this point we were both too drunk to think of anything, ah drunken conversations is there anything better in life?

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  167. Well fuck me, I was wrong , Paul is lovely and wonderful.

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  168. Yeah, I couldn't be arsed.. make your own minds up.

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  169. Hello everyone, just parked this here for inclusion on Cif moderation watch. (spongebobterror)

    "This is ridiculous.

    A poster above is allowed to express the opinion that people´s lives ruined under Thatcher shouldn´t moan because they didn´t live under the Nazis and my post calling this into question is the one deleted?!!

    There was no swearing, abuse or ad hom,it was purely based on what the poster said above.

    Comment is Free as long as you´re a made man/woman on here."


    Nice one on that thread James!

    Hi Deano, good to see you back.

    Lost my internet connection for a couple days, not sure what that was all about but I notice I was sadly missed ;)!

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  170. Ooops: took me that long to work out how to cut and paste it, James beat me to it!

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  171. Chekhov

    Cheers.

    And,

    "Lost my internet connection for a couple days, not sure what that was all about but I notice I was sadly missed ;)"

    I had actually noticed that the 'night shift' has been a bit lacking of late....

    Welcome back!

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  172. Hi chekhov

    Wondered where you were.

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  173. chekov

    liked your comment that according to the hungarian neo-peronist Italy will now reach a new democratic standard with gagging laws.....;) by chance is he a mate of silvio's??

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  174. Missed a full day of cif and UT, oh well. Had a nice day in London, incredibly busy but not bad really.

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  175. Hello Leni; I notice Cif are recruiting "Newbies" and "Lurkers", having alienated all the people who just, you know, made some sensible comments they just want to bring on the next tranche that the "mods" can take the piss out off.
    "Numpties" doesn't do them justice.
    Of course if you are put in "pre-mod" for making a perfectly reasonable observation,and refuse to participate further in the farce that is Cif, Peter Bracken will call you out for having "prissy" principles.
    I said it before and I'll say it again: "Only someone without principles would refer to them as "prissy".

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  176. Ah, Bidisha is back on the main threads, after a cooling off period in the Lifestyle section

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  177. chekhov

    Ah - the recruiting poster. Looking for hits I suppose as ad revenues fall.

    I am still stomping round on waddya - trying now to get something going on volunteering - economic value thereof and dangers of both vols replacing paid employees and of opening up door to workfare schemes.

    I/m not denying value of vol - I/m one myself - but can see the whole thing becoming an industry of unpaid workers.

    So far all my efforts have been massive fail eerie silence on ATOS and other issues. Several excellent posters on these issues - all being ignored.

    We might as well fripper around on lifestyle threads - trouble is they make me realise just how inadequate I am.

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  178. Nap

    What did you get up to in the Smoke today?

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  179. Re-my last post,which was a bit sloppy in both syntax and grammar and or sentence constuction, (or are they all the same thing?), the "Numpties" I was referring to were the Oxbridge wonks who run Cif, not the "Newbies".
    Just thought I'd clarify that.
    I like a bit, if not a lot, of clarity!

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  180. Leni: it's not you that is inadequate, it's the snake oil selling shits that won't listen to you.
    Keep fighting and well done for all your efforts.
    I wish I had more time to join in but right now I'm struggling to just keep my head above the water.

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  181. BB.

    National Gallery then Tate Britain, as I planned. Great paintings and fine art.

    What surpised me is how small the centre of London actually is. I got everywhere walking around on foot to save money, mostly the centre is full of tourists, Buckingham palace, the mall, trafalgar square, whitehill, downing street, parliament etc are all really close together. Strange especially when we mere provincials have seen these places so many times on TV, but have no comprehension of them in their actual geographical location.

    I saw the famous peace camp outisde Parly' but I was too busy to stop. Funnily enough there was a letter in the Evening standard about how there were know pedestrian crossings to that stri of greenery (forget it's name) where they protest, and it is surrounded by traffic.

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  182. What's up Chekov?

    And Leni you are so much more than adequate it isn't even funny, keep fighting and I will do my best to join in. x

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  183. chekhov

    Nowt wrong with your sentence in first place - anaphoric 'they' clearly referred to 'Cif are recruiting ...' - Cif being the 'they'

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  184. Heheh. Didn't realise it was your first time in the City, Nap. Yes, all the major sights are in the same square mile or so.

    I think the peace camp is fab. Makes me smile every time I go past it on the bus. And yes it is surrounded by three solid lanes of traffic...

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  185. Leni; what does "anaphoric" mean? Not come across that word before.
    BTW; I'm typing as I have an ear listening to Question Time on the "telly" and I've no doubt you are doing the same, so forgive me if my attention is not as astute as it should be.

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  186. Galloway has nailed the NHS reform on QT - nothing more than funnelling money to their friends (no doubt with plenty of kickbacks on the way), and it constitutes the essential of the NHS as a nationalised health service.

    This NHS reform has shocked me more than anything, other than maybe the entire privatisation of education which is under way.

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  187. chekhov

    In simple terms - it is a pronoun referring back to the named person in sentence.

    John ate the cake he had bought earlier - 'he' is the anaphoric reference to John.

    Anaphora is also used in literature - repetition - and in every day speech.

    Churchill used it in rallying speeches

    We will fight them on the beaches.
    We will fight them ...

    Not watching QT - since we 'went digital' any bad weather reduces TV to dancing pixels and odd bleeps and squeaks.

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  188. chekhov

    To be clear

    John and Peter ate the cake he bought earlier .

    This would not tell us which one bought the cake.

    J and P ate the cake J bought earlier would.

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  189. I can't find the word "anaphoric" in my dictionary!

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  190. Leni QT is a series of bleeps and squeaks (along with the odd satisfied grunt) there is probably nothing wrong with your TV. ;)

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  191. Google it Chekov, it's there, time for a new dictionary maybe, I know I am always on the lookout for a better one.

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  192. @chekhov

    It's often quicker just to type define:wordyoudon'tknow into Google. That's what I just did for 'anaphoric'...

    @Jay

    I can't be bothered turning the TV on for QT, so I have it on in iPlayer in the background and treat it like radio. At least I do now my Internet's back up permanently.

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  193. Hello Leni; thanks for trying to explain but as you know I'm a bit thick, so I don't quite get it but feel free to make it easier for me to understand!

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  194. Jay
    "Galloway has nailed the NHS reform on QT "

    Yeh, funny, I found myself agreeing with one or two things.

    There is much to say about the NHS white paper (the real white paper comes out this autumn by the way). It's an area I know a bit abnout, working in the area as I do. Thinking of putting something up on UT2.

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  195. Jenni

    QT - very often peopled by pipsqueaks with large egos.

    What ever happened to open and informed debate ?

    Public debate is now a struggle between conflicting spinmeisters couched in language designed to be meaningless and - most importantly - noncommittal.

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  196. Stop calling yourself thick Chekov that is my identity. ;)

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