06 July 2010


Baltimore oriole

If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.

Tallulah Bankhead


  1. Morning!

    What a beautiful bird!

    Very occasionally we get the Golden Oriole's visiting these shores.... very rarely..... fair cheered me up.


    Thank you for the PE you toob..... that cheered me up too TeminatorX ;0)

  2. Fuck. Just left the radio on while that bigotted moron Anne Atkins was on Thought for the Day. If that is a religious slot (hence they won't allow atheists on it), what qualifies her to speak on it ? She's just an overpriviledged ninny with an arts background and absolutely no qualification or experience in theology. TFTD is designed to people like get me out of the house and into the traffic quicker I reckon.

  3. how weird..... my morning comment has disappeared.....

  4. Hmm. Peter Bracken's piece on the 'deluded left' is up. I fear he's in for a hard time from some of the Cif clientele.


    That Gray quote chekhov asked about last night is from Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College, which seems appropriate somehow in these coalitioned days.

  5. Bracken's new article about the 'deluded Left' is up folks

  6. Peter Bracken telling the world why the Left is wrong - other than his version - over here.

    Have not read it, but others might like to do so.

  7. Bracken alert! Bracken alert!

    (Just being equal opportunity, like.)

  8. Morning all. Nice bird.

    Thank you for the grammatical explanation re 'whom', Montana - given paucity of grammatical knowledge in my own language, had always assumed that was the dative (after german, mit wem). had a bit of a lightbulb moment there...

  9. Hmm. Peter Bracken's piece on the 'deluded left' is up; he's already getting a hard time from some of the Cif clientele, some of them adequately proving his point.


    That quote chekhov asked about last night is from Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College, which seems appropriate in these coalitioned days.

  10. has nayone commented yet? something weird going on

  11. bit quiet. presume everyone is over at the bracken thread?

  12. alternatively, that comment having just replaced my first one, that the system is having 'issues'. hmmm?

  13. Okay, I've put three comments up. My first one posted, it was there. I went away from here. When I came back -- no comments. Not even the one I'd left, let alone any from anyone else.

    The counter says there are 13 people online. Anyone else having commenting trouble? E-mail me, if you are.

    thewildhack AT gmail DOT com

  14. The long awaited "deluded left" is unleashed.

  15. Anybody else having trouble making comments stick today? I've posted twice on here, seen them in the thread, and then they're gone after a reload...

    Of course, it's very likely nobody will see this one either.

  16. Mornin All.

    Re: Peter Braken's dreadful, 'I'm the real lefty,' nonsense..

    6 Jul 2010, 8:48AM
    the left is an 'it'? define your terms?

    peter braken said the 'deluded left' is aligned with totalitarianism is corrupted and grotesque and has lost his way ... ... basically this article says i know you are but what am i?
    It Make I larf..

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

  18. 0/ - thanks for good wishes every body.

    I'm really struggling with the emptiness at the minute. Mungo is being great so I'm sure I'll get there.

  19. We're all doomed!

  20. message #5.

    stardate - 6.7.10.

    fear i am now utterly alone. no sign of life in the galaxy for some time. the possibility is that a rift has opened up, as a result of his grace relenting and posting on a cif thread, and that this has created a wormhole through which all other UT-life has been sucked.

    i live between two universes. this may be my final message...

    daisy, daisy, give me your answer, do...

  21. GREGG UP posted45m ago, worked then disappeared.

  22. Another test (wondering what this thread will look like once things get fixed ...)

  23. Every time I refresh my original post disappears. GREGG UP posted about 3 hours ago.


  24. Hmm ... just checking in after a long weekend away and it appears that Comment is Fucked here too.


  25. Hello everyone.

    Not sure if this will work...

  26. Well it did work, and now I have refreshed, it has distapperated. Ah well. Hugs to all xx

  27. Nap -
    Sorry was not able to read much from yesterdays thread and someone may have already taken this up but:
    it is the Marxist dialecticians who say that 'the people' have to read their 'bread and circuses' literature that are patronising and elitist. Especially those that put people into 'classes'

    As someone who argues from a Marxist perspective (=Marxist dialectician) I have to say you are wrong there. I believe in education for its own sake and said only a few days ago that I believe that working people can be well read and cultured people - why on earth not?

    You only have to read about the working men's institutes of the 19th century to see that, The books in their libraries were far from 'bread and circuses' major works of literature and academic works on history geography ecconomics and science!

    And what Marxist literature is of the bread and circuses variety? I've not found any.

    Oh and Marxists don't 'out people into classes they are in favour of a classless society. We do believe however that the economic reality of capitalism divides people into two classes see this quote from the manefesto:

    Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other - bourgeoisie and proletariat

    For example the bourgeoisie (employers) want to pay wurkers as little as possible and workers want as much pay as possible this is the anatagonism Marx & Engels talk of. They don't do the dividing - the system does.

  28. Montana I don't know what's going on at your end but I am posting OK now!

  29. Testes, testes...

    If this works it's because i'm one of the sorry few using livejournal

  30. ...party on the Bracken thread then

  31. It's like confession......

    Forgive me blogger, for I have sinned!!

  32. There once was a man from Nantucket....

  33. Paul

    I hope you come below the line because I have some very specific questions - others perhaps can answer them.

    In your original research and presentation you compared European models to the one used in USA. You appeared to condemn 'food stamps' and to reject them - they are now in use here. Benefit payments are often delayed leaving people literally penniless. Did you ever examine the benefits system itself and draw any conclusions about how it operates?

    Your original proposals were formulated when it appeared that the economy was expanding - job opportunities increasing. Did you plan for a collapsing economy and the massive rise in unemployment facing us ? Where are those who come off benefits to work ? No jobs - how are they to survive?

    the Pathways model - the same applies - pathways to where?

    Latest published figures show that ATOS was paid in excess of 80 million pounds in one year, costs of individual reassessments not available. They are considered "commercially sensitive" 80 million pa of tax money - how is it commercially sensitive.

    Terminal illnesses and recognised disabilities are diagnosed by doctors, are documented along with treatment plans. These diagnoses and treatment histories are funded already through NHS - why is this readily avaiable information not used ?

    The personal and social consequences of this plan , if pushed to its logical conclusion, will be disastrous. Post above are testimony to this. Add the proposed reassessment of DLA claimants to the list of people at risk and the social consequences will be horrendous.

    Can this scheme be wound back or is it so entrenched in the system and political thinking that itwill be rolled out regardless ? how can we, collectively, reverse it ?

    Before anyone jumps on me - there are many disabled people, and single parents, who would love to work. In a shrinking jobs market how many employers will even consider them ?


    Parking this here - Cif rejecting comments. Already written it twice before !

  34. Wow - still nothing!?

    Have we been busted?

    Anyone else watching the skies for black helicopters?

  35. And we're back!!

    Sort of.....

  36. Are you there now? Oh, I've felt so alone...

  37. Now you are all here, and I'm NOT!

  38. Something eating comments - mine above appeared as comment no.1 - disappeared and has now returned.

    Cyber goblins rampaging somewhere.

    Hi Deano x

  39. You are not alone Philippa - space time continuum has wobbled.

    When it all returns to normal we will realise the economic situation was but a dream - we are all quite safe really.

  40. I can read comments now, so let's see if I can post one ...

  41. Ahhhh..... hilarious..... everyone shouting in the dark!!! (bit like CiF!)


    "we're all doomed" lol ;-)

    IT was vERY SPooKy this morning...

  42. Montana

    Looks like were back on! Posts are showing up although everyone in the dark like in Blair Witch Project

  43. Repent - the end is nigh....

  44. Is this like when I was a kid and everyone used to talk about me in invisible ink...?

  45. If i don,t get me daily fix of UT soon i,m gonna end up in rehab !!

  46. I would like to ake this opportunity to swear and curse into the empty ether - I am however constained by the thougt that my ill wishing may land elsewhere - perhaps before the horrified eyes of some sweet and innocent old lady.

  47. He's abandooned his own thread and is now crying on waddya. "Wot larks Pip, wot larks!"

  48. @Deano

    Thanks for calling in. Plenty of gremlins today apparently.

  49. And lo, the internetz shall collapsed in on itself
    And you will know my name is the lord, when I lay my vengeance upon google......

    Ezekial 25:18

  50. afternoon everyone

    I gather there have a few probs at UT Manors today - ghosts in the machine - again....

    I read Peter B's piece. I think the Duke nailed it for me - other good comments too, but people have already said what I would have said so I'll stay away.. Its all so much more complicated than the dichotomous oppositions he's espousing. deluded/authentic, east/west Islamic/secular etc etc.

    There are lunatics everywhere unfortunately left, right and centre.

  51. w00t!

    We're back!

    Evening everyone.

    MsChin and Thaum - not seen you for ages, hope all is as well as can be expected in the circs, etc.

    And Deano - sending you hugs.

    Philippa - this made me choke on my beer!

    "stardate - 6.7.10.

    fear i am now utterly alone. no sign of life in the galaxy for some time. the possibility is that a rift has opened up, as a result of his grace relenting and posting on a cif thread, and that this has created a wormhole through which all other UT-life has been sucked.

    i live between two universes. this may be my final message...

    daisy, daisy, give me your answer, do... "


    is a bit late now, afternoon all ;)

    popping back to the greggthread.

  53. His Grace posted on a CiF thread?!!

    Blimey. That is enough to project us into a parallel universe...

  54. Deano

    Glad to see you back - Things'll be tough for a while but Mungo will be a comfort. I expect he's feeling a bit lost too.


    I cannot abide Ann Atkins....she always sounds so smug and self satisfied, it's the tone of her voice - I want to scream (and often do) when she comes on.


    We're all doomed

    Sad, but probably true.

  55. Hmmmm...just put up a couple of posts which went up ok but have now vanished....am I in a worm hole here or can you guys see them?

  56. I can see everyone's posts as I type this - now it will be interesting to see if

    a) this post makes it and/or
    b) everything disappears again.

  57. BB

    His Grace posted on a CiF thread?!!

    Blimey. That is enough to project us into a parallel universe...

    He did. Good post too. If cif want to up the hits rate then they should employ PeterB....there are hundreds of them already.

    re the gremlins - I think a Robert Anton Wilson world has broken through - if only....it would be fun.

  58. Hot dog, jumping frog, Alber-querque!?

  59. Hehehe! That would be fun indeed! :o)

  60. Did someone save the world?

    Can I come out from under the bed now?

  61. BB, 21.27:

    “Maybe some of us just don't like confrontation and scroll on by, Andy”

    BB, 22.53:

    “Piss off, fariha”

    Well you changed your tune pretty fucking quick. One would almost think those two comments must be from two different people. I wonder which one is the imposter or whether you’ve had a lobotomy in the intervening time…


    “I utterly fail to see how saying that I think that a woman who would fuck men for money because she thinks it's a quick, easy way to make a wad is a slut amounts to misogyny”

    Apparently so. Calling a woman a slut (or a bint, as you yourself were called a few days later) is always misogynistic, at least in my opinion, because it plays on sexual double standards and negative ideas about women who are “promiscuous” or choose to pursue their sex lives in a way which doesn’t conform to patriarchal norms.

    “And, frankly, I resent the hell out of a man telling me what I should find misogynistic or offensive”

    And if I were doing that, Montana, you might well be justified in resenting me, but what I was actually doing was saying what I find misogynistic or offensive. I don’t have the right to tell you or anyone else what to find offensive, and if you go back and read my comments on this issue, you’ll see that I make it explicit that my opinions are just that – my opinions.

    Just to make it clear, I don’t think you’re a misogynist, Montana, but I do think a few of your comments show the influence of the misogyny we’re all exposed to. I would never claim to be immune to it, and I don’t see any reason to castigate you for not being immune to it either.

    But what I do find disappointing is that so few people here seem willing or able to address this issue in anything like a reasonable way without resorting to accusations of imposterdom or lobotomies or stalking, or going on about how they resent anyone making a comment which is somewhat critical of them.

    I’m beginning to wonder whether Untrusted has changed in the time I’ve been otherwise engaged, or if it’s just that I’m seeing it a bit more clearly for what it has always been. For all the claims to openness and progressiveness, there are apparently some things and some expressions of opinion which are just too hot for most of you to handle.

  62. Yeah, I think I'll just give this a prod to make sure.

  63. Is UT in pre-mod?

    @deano-if you see this i hope you,re bearing up.

  64. Peter Bracken popped in here a few days ago to declare that he was going to blow the deluded Left out of the water, what with being all riled up and ready to deliver the final coup de grace which would forever end the argument between the right left and the wrong left and the right right and all that jazz.

    Does anyone know if he ever got round to doing that?

    Is that what caused teh internetz to go into meltdown today?

    All I can see is him apparently in tears and shouting "I hate you!" to all his mates on WADDYA.

  65. andy

    I am polite to you because I like you and respect you.

    fariha, on the other hand, was simply here to insult me. I don't know her from Adam, but what I do know is that on the two occasions she has posted here she has insulted me.

    I say the same to Bitey and any other troll who comes on here looking for trouble.

    Now if I ever say it to you, you will know you have been relegated to that position too. :o)

    How's things, apart from that? Are you still doing your gardening?

  66. Atomboy

    You're coming through....loud and clear!

    Hi Andy

    Glad you're back.

    For all the claims to openness and progressiveness, there are apparently some things and some expressions of opinion which are just too hot for most of you to handle.

    Isn't that the way of things in general - why should the UT be any different?

    For the record I think you have a point but being realistic people aren't always going to engage with each other at the top of their game and sometimes people's style/approaches clash a bit..

    On the whole though, I think the UT does pretty well.

  67. Paul

    UT is having all kinds of bizarre probs.

    I wasn't able to see any posts at all until about an hour ago. Weird.

  68. After Peter Bracken seemed to get upset when people laughed at his 24 article I did ask him if he thought he was cut out for the cut and thrust of ATL writing.

    He said he was extremely thick skinned and it didn't bother him in the slightest, looks like he is a big fibber.

  69. jenn

    Has gone btl then? He hadn't earlier on when I was reading the thread. I just wish he'd write in plain English - his pieces sound like something from a lit crit uni course (2nd year). Sorry a bit mean but you know what I'm saying

  70. Sheff

    He went on Waddya and told someone who called his writing style terrible that they couldn't fucking read.

    Watch it he will be after you next. ;)

  71. I agree with Sheff and I reiterate what I said yesterday.

    Just because people don't pick up a gauntlet thrown down, however well-intentioned the throwing of it is, doesn't mean that they are tacitly approving of the thing complained-of.

    I sit here in my living room, with my hubby a few feet away from my, my son usually upstairs with his schoolwork or his guitar, the phone rings, the tv is on, I am browsing work-related web-pages, a neighbour pops in.

    Some days I have had some kind of major crisis that I don't particularly feel like sharing in public - particularly with the actual stalker(s) that hovers round these pages - so I am posting as a means of escaping from a gruesome and unpalateable reality, for a bit of light relief.

    Other times I am just dog tired.

    Almost invariably I don't like confrontational situations with people I "know" - call me a wuss if you like, but online fights really upset me if it is with people I "frequent" on a regular basis.

    So turning up and saying "I want to talk about this, and none of you are talking about it or responding to me, therefore you must all agree with it" is a bit daft, really. Nobody on here knows about anything that is going on in anyone else's life right now, unless they choose to share that information. But people do have their lives to live, and will react in different ways depending on the sort of thing they are living right now...

    For the record, I happen to be very upset right now because a very close family friend whom I have known since the age of 10 has got terminal liver cancer. He will be allowed home this week if his jaundice manages to sort itself out, and his wife is getting the MacMillan nurses in to help. They live a long way from here and I would love to go and see him, but on the other hand part of me thinks that the family have enough shit to contend with, without people turning up on them.

    I am not saying this because I want sympathy. But tell me how you would have guessed, from my posts today, that this was going on right now?

    The short answer is, you wouldn't.

    You have to make allowances for the fact that everyone is different and everyone has different stuff that is important to them. And sometimes getting pulled into a fight online is too tedious to be contemplated...

  72. @ turminder "He's abandooned his own thread and is now crying on waddya." (Re: Peter Bracken) and hasn't that side foray gone well too? Can see Waddya getting shut down for the evening: he's taking on Bru and kiz, who have elevated status there. Can't help but think it would have saved a lot of keystrokes from a lot of folks if Peter B just went round to the houses of the "deluded left" and asked 'em out for a fight. It's not like there are many who actually fit the category he describes, but his piece basically ended up asking out anyone who's not an economic neo-liberal and/or who questions 'liberal' intervention/warmongering.
    Aye, there was a word limit, but he could have been focused and pointed, but instead used his trademark prose pyrotechnics, which as ever contained some phrase-making that blew up in his face (eg The attribution of delusion is ruinously simple to sustain which means the opposite of what I presume he intended:by those words as written,the ruinous element is the calling some deluded, not their alleged delusion) . Ah, well. Another day, and look, another argument on the internet. Who'da thunk it?

  73. Aah we,re back !


    Thought maybe Montana had got pissed of with us all and put us into pre-mod :-)(only joking Montana:-)


    I haven,t read Peter B,s article so i can,t comment on it.However if the Guardian judges the success or otherwise of an article by the number of comments it gets then Peter B is clearly a CIF star in the making.

  74. BB:

    To be honest, I’m not that bothered whether you like or respect me. It’s not ultimately about personalities, it’s about opinions, and while it’s obviously possible to agree with someone on some things and not on others, you don’t really seem prepared to take much of a stand on anything that matters, at least not if that will put you in a contrary position to many people here.

    You might have particular reasons for not getting into an argument now, but the truth is you seem unwilling to rock the boat or go against the supposed consensus on things that really matter, ever, as do many of those here.

    And you can attempt to justify that with as many references to Buddhism as you like, but in the end, and for what it’s worth, it strikes me as moral cowardice.


    “Isn't that the way of things in general - why should the UT be any different?”

    Yeah, it is the way of things in general, but I suppose I thought that Untrusted was aiming for something a bit more than the standard of things in general, which is why I’m disappointed.

    “For the record I think you have a point…”

    You would be one of those who I would expect to have seen this from something similar to my perspective, which makes me wonder why you don’t response to misogyny more often.

    We all know you’re not afraid of a bit of confrontation when necessary – don’t tell me you’ve become a Buddhist as well ;-)

  75. jennifera30

    He said he was extremely thick skinned...

    Like most things, I think you have to pick the bones out of what is being said.

    I can see one part of this being quite true, for example.

  76. Just read the 'deluded left'..not sure about it at all..and I actually think there is a 'deluded liberal-left'..just different to his. Deluded because:

    1) the 'left' tag was appended just as any trace of traditional leftist values were dropped like a lead turd (cf New Labour)..so what we're left with is a bunch of deluded liberals espousing what I still delight in referring to as 'bourgeois sentiments' and claiming they represented the progressive strand of a 'Left Wing' party whose raison d'etre was a continuation of the Thatcherite agenda.

    2) this 'deluded left/liberal' strain baulk at any mention of class or class conflict and consider it divisive and antithetical to community cohesion (whatever the fuck that might be) instead of a mainstay of their political ideology.

    3) they try to justify their positions by an appeal to relativistic values...no doubt claiming that the inevitable "house built on sand" analogies are simply a throwback to Western imperialist patriarchal religious propoganda.

    4) What makes them most deluded of all is that so many are middle-class Guardian reading professionals who never were traditional supporters of or the Left nor its natural constituency...they just loved the image and were suckers for a little radical rebranding.

    I think the 'deluded left' he's referring to is small in number and mainly consists of fairly fucked-up, immature exhibitionists who cluster around humanities departments and gravitate toward the extreme weird left to find someone to talk to.

    The real problem was always the middle-class/ liberal appropriation of the Labour party...and the fuckin self-serving careerists who clambered on board..the deluded left were the kind of stupid fucked up cheerleaders who lent their support...as often as not by email from Tuscany. I wonder if CIF would do a piece on THAT deluded left?

    Comment of the week...


    I've had the same problem. Some men don't mind insulting you (especially if you're a woman). Hit back and they come over all outrage/hurt surprise.#

    ..."especially if you're a woman"???

    I wonder why anyone would feel compelled to include that..especially if they were a woman.

    My guess...late 40's, works for the gasboard, lives with his mother somewhere in the midlands..always been a little confused about his sexuality..likes 'pretty things'.


    You and bitethehand a tag-team these days?

    #Just to make it clear, I don’t think you’re a misogynist, Montana, but I do think a few of your comments show the influence of the misogyny we’re all exposed to.#

    So the UT is a actually a hotbed of "the influence of the misogyny we’re all exposed to"?..but wouldn't that be true of well..everything?

  77. Paul

    ...if the Guardian judges the success or otherwise of an article by the number of comments it gets then Peter B is clearly a CIF star in the making.

    Yes, we could go from BiBuBiBu to BraBru...

  78. BraBru sounds like the latest offering from Playtex...

  79. OK we can change it round.

    Perhaps Grand Poobah BruBra.


    That would actually make an interesting article.

    Obviously, nothing like Bracken's.

  80. Andysays

    I don,t know you so don,t have any problem with you.However one of the four examples of misogynistic language you quoted in your recent post was from me.Maybe you genuinely weren,t aware but i did apologize to the person i said it too and my apology was accepted.

  81. Shit! I succumbed and posted on PeterB's thread.....oh well.


    Yes, I do do confrontation but prefer to choose my own ground and experience has shown me it's sometimes best to leave people to sort things out for themselves.

    I have found that rushing to defend someone can be a thankless task and even make things worse and frankly i prefer to keep my powder dry for when I really need it.

  82. BB:

    “Whatevs, andy. Can't be arsed”

    If you can’t be arsed having a genuine discussion, why the fuck are you on Untrusted?


    “You and bitethehand a tag-team these days?”

    No, we’re not. I still think he’s a complete prick.

    I don’t think Untrusted is a hotbed of misogyny, I was quoting that phrase from Jen, who may in her turn have been quoting it from someone else, but to dismiss the idea that there’s any misogyny here, either with indignation or by making a joke of it, is basically to refuse to discuss it at all, and it’s that that I find disappointing.

    I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, I don’t even expect anyone to agree with me, but I did hope that at least a few people might be prepared to discuss it…

  83. Excellent point there MF. How can someone write about any aspect the Left for 800 odd words and not somewhere, at some point, mention class?
    Ah, that'll be because, as you say, that whole thread has fuck all to do with socialism, and all to do with rather precious spats about whose turn it is to wear a frock that fits next to none of those squabbling.All we've got is another branch of lifestyle branding/identity posturing.

  84. andy

    You misunderstand. I can't be arsed to have a discussion with you. You seem to be labouring under the misunderstanding that just because you show up here with an "issue" that you feel needs addressing we should all drop whatever it is we are doing or thinking about and deal with it.

    And you have accused me of moral cowardice. You are just prodding me to get a reaction out of me. I can't be arsed to deal with it.

  85. Atomboy

    I,d take out the copyright on BruBra pretty sharpish if i were you.You could be onto something there.I can see it now-

    I give you the BruBra-the uplifting undergarment for trannies in need of a hump !!

  86. Alisdair

    That article is a bunch of stuff, it really is. It is riddled with Blarite hypocrisy, and the "if you're not with us you're against us" school-yard mentality that has permeated the political scene and informed our foreign policy for nigh-on a decade now.

    PeterBracken cannot even countenance that there could have been mistakes made Iraq and Afghanistan, and anyone who says there is is a deluded leftie terrorist supporter.


  87. Paul:

    I know that one of the comments was yours. I know who made all of them, but because I was trying to avoid personalising the issue I deliberately avoided attributing any of them.

    A misogynist comment is still a misogynist comment after you’ve apologised for it or deleted it. Maybe you might want to think before you press post next time…

    Like I said above, we’re all subject to misogyny, just like we’re all subject to racism, and just like we’re all subject to the ideology of capitalism (and I include myself in all of those), so it doesn’t surprise or shock me when someone comes out with a comment which I view as being grounded in one of those ideologies.

    Unfortunately some people are apparently so convinced that they are ideologically pure, that any suggestion otherwise is met with outrage.


    Fair enough. We can, I’m sure, agree to disagree on where, when and why to confront what we believe needs confronting.


    Whatevs. Can't be arsed.

  88. well. odd day, eh? interesting, all the 'shouting in the dark', though. bad james. bad.


    hello deano - hope you and mungo are bearing up.

  89. kidding...actually quite sweet that even when you thought nobody was watching, you still went with 'bomb'.

    so - come on netherlands!

  90. ahhh, right.

    Got it now!!

    And yup, C'mon the oranges!!

  91. ^(I thought you were blaming me for the t'internetz collapsing in on itself...)^

  92. having located the gregg thread, just want to say, fine work by all present on that...

    on princess cc's comment on gregg being an economist, in particular, i was thinking along much the same lines - the danger of bringing in a 'science' (or, at least, a purely numerical system) to deal with something that impacts on people's reality. reminded me of mcnamara, the 'human ibm', doing the casualty assessments for vietnam - mathematically, fine - but missed the human impact that that many deaths, that many coffins, would have.

    to (re)quote old econ tutor - economics isn't perfect "because people spend the money". here, it's because "people get ill". i know there have to be numbers and costings and all but...people. that's the important bit.

  93. Annetan.

    From what I said last night and your response.

    Yes, I support the continued intellectualisation of libraries. The working class intellectualism you describe is what I am trying to preserve. Yet many libraries seem to offer cheap airport novels, self help books and celebrity 'auto'biographies.

    Leni said it was 'censorship' in regards to my proposition. By that logic every single library in the country practises censorship as their is only a limited amount of storage space, and many thousands of books are published every year in Britain. Of course it is not censorsship- it is pragmatic reality.

    I am merely proposing that libraries continue to be bastions of intellectualism like AnnTan says, rather than pandering to the crass celebrity style culture.

  94. Come on you Orange bastards !!!

  95. sidenote to any cooks out there - am after a recipe for macaroons. proper macaroons, with rice paper underneath and half an almond pressed into the top.

    because am having difficulties explaining to DB that in the UK, macaroons do not come in a variety of colours and flavours.

    have to admit, the variety box i bought us yesterday (am being annoying sweet at present to store up credit re football) was very nice. but they are too little, too gooey in the middle, and they're all funny colours.

    who eats a bright green macaroon? that's just wrong...

    anyway - if anyone has a tried and tested recipe, would be v grateful...

  96. andysays

    ''Maybe you might want to think before you press post next time…''

    I,m sure there are times when we all should have thought a bit more before posting.And that includes you andysays.

  97. Re, the Marx. I accept that perhaps I was wrong, and yes Marxists do place great emphasis on education for the betterment of humanity, as I do from a non Marxist perspective.

    But I am sure you know the old Marxist phrase..
    'being determines conscioussnes'.

    I find it somewhat opressive, as it ignores the human sprit and man's capacity to better himself and rise out of poor situations. For example, I know a girl who went through a horrific childhood, taken into care, etc, but did extremly well, got put up several years, got grade As in her A levels at age 15!-- 'being determines conscioussness' does' not apply there.

  98. i mean, am just tidying up right now and i'm eating one that's bright orange, sprinkled with green powder, that tastes of melon.


    the french are strange, sometimes...

  99. Anyway, football. Come on the Dutch. And hope Germany win for a Holland-Germany final!

  100. Sheff, MsChin, other Sheffield types (and anyone else)

    Check this - Everly Pregnant Brothers:

    "Losing My Best Pigeon".

    Recorded in Totley, round the corner from me B-in law. Awesome !


  101. BB -- we should all have enough imagination to think that the others MAY have shit goin on in their lives.

    Agreed ma chere!

  102. They sell those in Paul's bakeries here. Weird looking. I've never bought any because they cost a bloody fortune - like 12 quid a dozen or something.

  103. I lied. They are 8 quid for 12. But they are tiny bloody things, and come in weird flavours like pistachio and lemon.

    Weird I tells ya.

    BW - brilliant! :o)

    Frog - n'est ce pas? :o)

  104. philippaB- the french are strange sometimes..

    Come outside and say that again :)bloody rosbifettes.

  105. Well you changed your tune pretty fucking quick. One would almost think those two comments must be from two different people. I wonder which one is the imposter or whether you’ve had a lobotomy in the intervening time…

    I don't think she changed her tune at all -- she just cleaned up the lyrics for you because she likes you. She was politely telling you to piss off, dear.

    Apparently so. Calling a woman a slut (or a bint, as you yourself were called a few days later) is always misogynistic, at least in my opinion, because it plays on sexual double standards and negative ideas about women who are “promiscuous” or choose to pursue their sex lives in a way which doesn’t conform to patriarchal norms.

    Well, no. I don't care how many men any woman fucks just because she likes fucking -- it's when the money starts changing hands that I have a problem with it. And, my opinion of any man who would use a prostitute is even lower than my opinion of a woman who would willingly become a prostitute merely because she thought it was an easy way to make money.

    If you had read all of my comments and paid any attention at all to my actual views on this matter, you would realise that I believe that the "Happy Hooker" is as common as the unicorn. The only reason I made a comment giving any credence to the notion at all is because there are men who are utterly invested in the notion that they exist. They all seem to have met a prozzie who told them they were happy and she wouldn't have lied to them, would she???

    No, Andy. It really wasn't what you were doing and you most certainly didn't make it clear that you were just expressing your opinion. You've been pitching a hissy fit that no one else was as indignant as you were about my comment and trying to force people to express an opinion by insulting them for not doing so.

    I’m beginning to wonder whether Untrusted has changed in the time I’ve been otherwise engaged, or if it’s just that I’m seeing it a bit more clearly for what it has always been.

    There's a third alternative, you know. Maybe you've just become a bit of a dick.

    Or would it be misandrist of me to say that?

  106. BB - €11 for 14, here. mind, have saved a chocolate one for last, and DB seemed happy, so i think that was a good move. now need to move into home baking, just to show how it's really done.

  107. And Frog - this will make you wince. Paul's Patisserie - a chain of stores in the UK - want 25 quid for a bloody Framboisier. A bit of cake with some raspberry mousse, ffs.


  108. BW - that's hilarious "Ah'm rate dischooffed, ma hobbies stooffed." God how to spell the local vernacular!

    i know that pub - The Cricket Inn - not been there for ages mind.

  109. According to Obama - Bibi N is "a man of peace....he wants peace and will take risks for peace.' Pass me the sick bucket....

  110. BB -- my answer to that is on th Gregg thread--
    frog comment ih ope ...! Conspicuous consumption me love...

  111. Oh, and incase PeterB is looking in - Hamas are bastards.

  112. Ha ha, indeed, Sheff
    It's a bleeding gastro pub last time I was there, but there you go...

  113. I posted when there were 14 visible comments and on my return, they've disappeared into the ether again....

  114. am I here? Or just and existential apparition?

  115. Wierd thing is, the u-choob was posted by my *ex* brother in law.

    Must be on a lay line.


  116. and agreeing with montana - and BB earlier, that 'silence' does not necessarily mean agreement (for a variety of reasons, including being not in, and not having the energy) - there was no double standard in what she said, apart from anything else, because she was talking about only one side of things. and i am in no way surprised by her clarification of what she thinks of the punters...

    i may not agree with her initial view, but i don't see misogyny / misandry / mis-whatever in it. it's a moral judgment. we all make 'em. i'll call on the hatey when i see it, but it is possible to disagree with no hate being present.

    seeing 'just words' with no context, one might take one view of what is said. but if you know the poster (or, rather, have read sufficient by them to know where they are coming from), that can make a big difference.

    both in knowing more about the worldview behind a comment, as with montana, or, in relation to something somebody else was saying about calling people 'dear' or something, because you're more comfortable with certain words from friends than from strangers.

    example - flatmate saying 'nice tits' when I stumble out into the light wearing very little to make coffee - chuck on the arm. stranger saying that in the street - smack in the mouth.

    or - (gay) friend saying 'god, you are so gay...' - poke out tongue. stranger using it as an insult - poke out eyes.

    knowledge, context, tone. it's all in there.

  117. BB - won't hear a word said about Paul's bakery though, it's the only place to buy bread after midday on sundays. there's one in the station, it's a bit like greggs, but not as good...

  118. I don't know why a paragraph disappeared from my post. The paragraph that begins "No, Andy" was responding to this:

    And if I were doing that, Montana, you might well be justified in resenting me, but what I was actually doing was saying what I find misogynistic or offensive. I don’t have the right to tell you or anyone else what to find offensive, and if you go back and read my comments on this issue, you’ll see that I make it explicit that my opinions are just that – my opinions.

    And, by the way, with regard to the comment from Paul that you quoted:

    Just as not every instance of a man being referred to by a derogatory term is a case of misandry, not every instance of a woman being referred to by a derogatory term is a case of misogyny. He referred to me as an ignorant bint in a moment of anger. That hardly means that he thinks that all women are ignorant bints.

    He apologised, I accepted his apology. I am completely satisfied that his apology was sincere and it's water under the bridge between the two of us. It really isn't the slightest business of yours.

  119. evening!

    guess i missed all the UT gremlins, but CiF was full of them including the most bizarre thread written by a gremlin.

    sorry, sorry, I must be deluded.

  120. @Numbed

    I felt a bit sorry for PeterB, actually. Some of the targets he was aiming at deserve to be aimed at, but the blanket condemnation - 'some people think this, therefore all of you think this' - was just asking for it.

    On the other hand, some of the comments BTL were from people who could have been legitimate targets, but were subsumed in the wider, and proper, complaints from everyone else.

  121. LaRit

    You are here - unless you are a figment of my imagination. (I just suddenly remembered a kids programme from the early 70s - can't remember what it was called, comedy thing, but they used to talk about it being a "figbox of my imagination". Anyone remember what that was?)

    Philippa - fair dos for Paul's. They are expensive here, but it is the only place where I can get a jambon cru sandwich for lunch round these 'ere parts.

    Numbed - I think you better go and have a lie down and wait until your delusion passes...

  122. peterj - nail / head - it's the move from '1/1000 lefties are numpites' to 'the left is a hotbed of numptification!' that drowns out any reasonability re the good points hidden in amongst it al.

    bit like an iddlebid article.

    he will go far...

  123. PeterJ

    I felt a bit sorry for the drubbing he was getting too, and was careful to play the ball not the man, as there was a lot too much of that going on.

    But nobody can honestly say he wasn't leading with his chin with that piece, can they?

  124. BB - just thought it was funny that when they started opening in london they were seen as real artisanal french produce, then realised it's railway stations all the way here...

  125. Numbed:

    I noticed all the odious little CiFWatch regulars turned out en masse today in their Sunday Best and silly monikers for the Peter Bracken thread - proves my point that they a right wing nutjobs masquerading as the last bastions against the Eveeil Tide of "anti-semitism" being 'normalised by de Left... Right thinking good sports every last man and woman of them!

  126. HAH!!

    Google is a truly remarkable thing. I just googled the "figbox" thingy and it gave me Hope and Keen's Crazy Bus. Of course it was! :o)

  127. @ Peter J

    I don't feel sorry for him.

    He's as smug as Derrida having a deconstructuralist field-day, without the requisite knowledge or talent.

    I don't think CiF should be dumb down land, but please... why can't he write sentences and arguments in plain English?

    "It is vain to do more with what can be done with less." William of Occam.

  128. BB:

    I really couldn't stand Peter Bracken when he first showed up in CiF - he made me extremely angry with his Nick Cohen-esque finery, but even though he's on the worng trajectory, I don't think he's a bad human being, he doesn't appear to have the vicious 'killer instinct'.

    Now Julian Glover, he's a truly nasty, despicable bit of work in a whole different league.

  129. Philippa

    It's the Club Med phenomenon, though, innit?

    Club Med was always thought of - and advertised as - something very classy here in the UK. I was surprised and delighted to discover, thanks to films like Les Bronzes, that the French view it the same way we view Butlins.

  130. May I incite ALL of you to visit or revisit the Gregg thread ?
    Some have been there already, but why not go back? A l'attaque mes enfants , I hope my appeal was gender-neutral enough ;)

  131. There is an f in forlan...

    Didn't think the keeper did that badly, but it hasn't exactly been a goalie's tournament has it ?!!

    Come on you orange, get it sorted.

  132. Why should braken get 300 and that 100, citoyen(ne)s get on yer bikes. Bring some mates wiv yer.

  133. bitterweed-- you get around there too ;)

  134. A votre service, frog...

  135. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainability

    this is good!

  136. been and posted.

    I can wax on for hours about eugenics, but the technical details offered by PCC, Leni, BB and all the others in this system have been really useful.

    thanks for the education guys - i have a relative about to be re-assessed and that thread has given me weapons to fight.

  137. Grauniad lives up to it's name.

    Go to the Guardian homepage.
    Scroll down until you see a picture of the queen in a flowery dress in the centre bar aka 'New York. Quick Stop'. Roll over it....

    'Queen opens memorial garden for British citizens who died at 7/11'.


  138. @Philippa, @BB, @Numbed

    One thought that struck me (although there was no point posting it on the thread itself, which had already turned into a feeding frenzy) was that all of those posters who were disassociating themselves from the view that, say, the Green movement in Iran was a western plot, were nowhere to be seen when Seumas Milne said pretty much that. I remember ben2 standing up to be counted, but otherwise the criticism was mostly left to the rightist trolls. Indeed, Milne picked up quite a lot of leftist support.

    He needs opposing from the left, and he's not just some fringe nutter.

  139. bitterweed shuddup and get yer arse into gear:) If the fucking 'megaphonies' can do it, so can we, an anyone who doesn't know to what I am refering can take a refresher course in Propaganda 101.

  140. Oh, *that*, frog2. Can't mate, BW has no posting rights on the CiF.

  141. NapK saw you there very good. I'd rather like to see you back there, old chap.
    Since it's a thread on economics as well, we can expound our own ideas for solutions for the goddam awful mess we're in.
    Why hold back ?

  142. well, i've had a crack, frog2 - on threads like that, normally leave it to the people who know the system, either personally or professionally, but have tried me bit.

    peterj - milne has always struck me as something of an idiot so i don't bother reading his stuff. should i be trying harder?

  143. From the Peter Bracken whatsit on Cif:

    6 Jul 2010, 8:45PM

    "blah blah blah blah blah wahhh blah blah blah pffftttttt"

  144. can anyone see my posts????

    A simple yes or no would suffice ;)

  145. Thank you James ;) was getting the heebie-jeebies....

  146. @Philippa

    Milne's been a bit of a hobby of mine, I admit, ever since he was comment editor of the main paper. The survival of an old-school (old public school) Stalinist interested me. He has no shame, and he's just wrong about almost everything.

    Perhaps it's just me.

  147. peterj - heheheh. will give him a read next time, sounds like fun!

  148. some one,,i think it was leni wondered about the "where did everyone go ?" after 200 posts,,

    there is a link to the new page at the top and bottom of the thread but it will not appear until the 201st post,, got lost a few times myself when the first 200+ threads happened

    the archive is screwddd and yesterdays thread is not available,,nor the 4th

    @Andy,,i agree with previous comments that you sound different from your previous tone last year,,
    as per buddhapeaceloveandmisundersanding
    as somone else who never makes (almost) vigorous noises about "other people are wrong" i see this as a positive and i read- e.g. "moral cowardice" as derailing rather than facilatating communication,,

  149. 3p4

    Good to see you - and your doggy - back on CiF yesterday.

    Still the best avatar evah! :o)

  150. BW --After last night's missive to Matt Seaton -- Outraged CiF commenter modded and then 'disappeared' after 5 years loyal service ... harumph harumph ... I think even this
    ancient one will have to look into 'alternative identities'.
    There are more of us than there are of them.
    Seriously chaps, and chapesses, we have a really beautiful example right in front of our eyes TODAY on the Gregg thread. It disappears, comes back, and disappears again ...
    Can't be bothered offhand to google it me self, now, but it exists. Multiform, multivariate, it"s there. An interesting challenge, nothing to be fucking afraid of.

  151. hey, 3p4! good to see you...

  152. we have a really beautiful example right in front of our eyes TODAY on the Gregg thread. It disappears, comes back, and disappears again ...

    pluck,,everything about cif today is wonky techwise,,

  153. @Sheff

    2nd year of uni? You're overrating Bracken hugely. It reminded me of a mock A-level essay from a six-former with a crush on his Scruton-reading Latin master.

    Ah well, back to work.

  154. actually theres a lot of wonk all over the net today,,must be my kids jerryrigged connection to get me the end of the world cup,,sorry folks,,
    we will unplug it all when the events done,,
    hi P

  155. "mock A-level essay from a six-former with a crush on his Scruton-reading Latin master."

    Harsh. But funny.

  156. PeterJ -- one of my own hobbies is TGA . Two weeks ago it was very easy. A definite SPLAT- moment .
    The other is the early-morning MAM.

  157. frog2
    There have been may CiF reincarnations of Bitterweed. The most recent being JalfreziGarnett and then Battistan... can't be arsed mate. They talk more and more shite over there each day.

  158. Hi All

    Total football is banished to history, but the Dutch were better. And James, that first goal today was the goal of the tournament for me.

    deano--Thinking of you. Take care.

    Hi 3p4--Good to see you. Have been implementing your suggestions with the dog and she's coming along well.

  159. Evening all

    I reckon we,re looking at a Holland v Germany final with most of the world wanting a dutch win.

    @Do people actually get paid for going ATL if they are a BTL bod?Or do you just get a Blue C as opposed to a Blue Peter Badge.

  160. Oh, tell a lie frog, it was MalawiJudge.

    That lasted about four seconds that one...

  161. Hi Paul, a Germany-Holland final would be very tasty viewing, and I would be supporting the Dutch. Not ready to dismiss Spain just yet, though I don't see them as being in top form.

    Nap--Did the queen pick up a giant slurpee at 7/11?

  162. Paul

    It's 85 quiddlys a pop.

    I'd rather have the Blue Peter Badge tho...

  163. I was just going to comment the very same thing, Paul. I'm sensing a Netherlands v Germany final. And, yes, I'll be wanting a Dutch win.

    As for getting paid if you go ATL -- depends. If they ask you to do the piece, you get paid. If you write the piece and send it to them to see if they'd like to use it, you don't get paid.

  164. Hallo all, glad to see comment is back!

    Sounds like there's a Bracken article to check out tomorra.

    Scherfig, have been up in your neck of the woods this weekend. Gorgeous. Big winds on the north coast - very dramatic waves crashing over the Giant's Causeway and soaking unwary tourists (which was very amusing).

    BW, was listening to the Lhasa CD you lent me through the Mourne mountains and also up the north coast. Perfect.

  165. Boudican

    If i was a betting man i,d say Germany should sail through tomorrow.Although saying that a fair few predictions of mine have been wrong this time.

    Dunno what converation you,re having with Nap but with regard to QE2 there was a report in yesterdays London Evening Standard that said she,s down to her last £15m.And could be penniless by 2012.So if the Canadian press start showing pictures of a little old lady wearing a tiara and surrouded by corgis sleeping rough on the Embankment you,ll know that Buckingham Palace has been repossessed.

    @BB-MsReed once mentioned on waddya that Peter B had phoned her.What,s the betting he was trying to up his fee?Kudos for him for trying if he was.

  166. @Montana

    Can,t see Ms Reed asking me to write about anything so i guess it would be no cheque in the post for me :-)