05 July 2010


Lavender Field - Phillip Minnis

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
-C.P. Snow


  1. Have a quick read of this, which is almost comic in its depiction of the Guardian as the paper to beat all papers despite a business plan that is haemorrhaging money, and open discontent from low ranking/journalism-minded (not opinion or lifestyle or single issue spouters) staff, as senior execs take pay rises, unpaid interns proliferate, and nepotism walks the corridors. More unpaid (or token payment) contributions from readers, less from proven journalists,less by way of investigation, more by way of flim-flam and ATL trolling.
    Echoing what Leni's said, it's really quite sad what's happened to the paper, its pursuit of the shallow,ephemeral and lifestyle/identity shtick at the expense of the sharp or insightful. There are pocket of the paper that remain decent:eg Society (but that's being shrunk and has started to take a dismal managerialist line too often), Review (which is also getting starved of resources and beginning to stray into PR puffery) but the vacuous or preposterously ill-informed are gaining the upper hand. More of the news is coming not from experienced or clued-up staffers but from agencies, and more weight is given to chatterati, London-centred wittering and navel-gazing, reflecting the concerns and lives of a tiny sub-set of the population whose 'issues' are quite frankly small beer. This piece was rather breath-taking in both its self-centredness and as an indicator of the paper's growing disconnect with a wider readership.It can't survive by pandering to the Shoreditch twat demographic, can't compete with sharper,cheaper,web-based sources of gossip and shiny ephemera (and is very slow at picking up things from such sites: see it on boing boing or a gawker site, see it on the Guardian site weeks later), and can't continue to estrange the dead-tree version buyers who want more of what the paper used to be like, as that's the principal revenue stream.
    It is a shame, but many wrong turns have been taken by senior management at the paper, and my source (cf what I posted a few weeks back on here) within the paper is not confident that they have either the ability, or the will to correct things.

  2. An amusing piece, Alisdair, comically deluded. To read that you'd think the Graun was positively booming.

    Leni's post was excellent, something i have been trying to articulate for ages and with thousands of clumsy words - "campaigning". The Graun needs to campaign, and for things other than creche facilities for female barristers (Rowenna's latest "beyond parody" adventure).

  3. @Alisdair:

    Yep, good analysis, all is not well in Kings Cross, discontent stalks the corridors and huddles round the water bubbles. I was talking to a couple of ex-Graun folks last week, they reckon the Scott Trust is floundering around trying to define some sort of mission statement beyond its remit just to keep the paper afloat, while McCall's exit from GMG is only the latest bump in the road, more to follow as the folks on the top salaries suddenly find that there are sunnier, better-paid uplands out there if they only compromised on their right-on principles a tad. But all this merely comes from the main problem which is, as you rightly point out, that the paper has lost its connections with what could be loosely termed its "roots" and is chasing your aptly-named "Shoreditch twat" demographic, which is rather unfortunate, as there is very little loyalty to the paper from that quarter. At best, you could say the twats are flirting with trendy leftie ideas for a while and so some benefit possibly accrues somewhere, but in the long run it's no way to build a readership.

  4. Morning all,

    before I read the comments above.

    Holland- fantastic. Can't remember much of Fiday evening and never saw saturday morning. We are due to drive down to France on Wednesday for a holiday (Peter Bracken has invited me down to explain how I'm deluded over some foie gras and pastis) but we're going to wait a bit longer if they beat Uruguay on Tuesday.

    Uruguay- just make things crystal. They are a bunch of conniving, cheating, diving scumbags.

    Scotland played them in 1986 requiring a win. Batista of Uruguay disembowled Strachan after 40 seconds and was sent off (quickest red card in WC history). Uruguay then intimidated, kicked, spat and cheated their way through the rest of the 90 minutes gaining the 0-0 draw they needed. The Scotland players came off drenched in spit and the head of the SFA Ernie Walker,called Uruguay 'scum of the earth'. Great to see them continuing the proud traditions of Uruguayan football on Friday.

    I hope Holland cut off their arse, put it upwards on a silver plate, stick a Dutch flag in it's arsehole and stick it on the plane back to Montevideo.

    Napoleon. Yes, Rangers fans and Orange. When I explain the Rangers fans obsessions with William of Orange to Dutch people, they just blink.

    Right, off to have a look at the weekend's CiF, it sounds like an execrable pile from what everyone has been saying.....

  5. Alisdair

    I read that....god, give me strength!! no nintendo wii. Jesus wept!!

    I notice the comments were closed very quickly...only 63. Am assuming they were much like the first few....incredulity. Am almost tempted to post on waddya.

    Actually, am laughing now...you've got to haven't you? I can feel my inner homicidal maniac stirring.

  6. That Guardian self love piece was excellent Alisdair but I could hardly read it for the tears I am shedding for Miles and his poor hard done by family.

    My comment on the Julian Glove shitfest was deleted, not sure if it was because I called him a fuckwit or mentioned Matthew Parris.

  7. I posted this comment on Glover's shitfest earlier. I'll park it here in case the moderators - who seem a little oversensitive on this piece - take some sort of offence.

    I was wondering why Glover's initial, and rather disgusting image of spittle running down walls struck a chord, and then found the reason after reading the rest of the piece.

    A few days before the 1987 general election, Margaret Thatcher let slip in an interview with David Dimbleby her real contempt for those who "drool and drivel that they care". You can see the clip here (scroll down a bit).

    That contempt, echoed in Glover's first paragraph, is smeared throughout his piece. Look at the language: 'the mob', 'the angry brigade', 'hollow outrage', 'puffed up by righteous indignation', 'smell like sour yogurt, a long moan', 'shallow resentments'. That is Guardian readers he is talking about, and whose compassion and solidarity he is sneering at.

    Thatcher realised her mistake instantly, and apologised - twice! - for using the words her subconscious had chosen. When is Glover going to apologise for his fully conscious words here?

  8. Alisdair - Just read it! Give strength! Loved this bit -
    While some media companies are limiting access to their editorial by putting up paywalls on the web, the Guardian is opening itself up even further through a process called mutualisation. This is more natural for the Guardian to do than other media organisations because its roots lie in the reform movement, and therefore it feels more at ease with challenge, dissent and collaboration.

    The bit I've emboldened is beyond parody isn't it?

  9. So dumbing-down has been officially rebranded as 'mutualisation' now, has it? Could be as popular as 'progressive' before too long.

    I quite like the current Guardian model. Consider the average Bidisha piece - confused, androgynous pixie holds forth bewilderingly on misogyny in Manga (or something), is shot down in flames by a half-a-dozen better-informed and more insightful BTL posters, and much hilarity ensues. Here the moderators are reconceptualised not as fascistic thought-police, but merely trying to maintain some kind of editorial line (for little thanks). What on earth do you people want? A searing, unassailable deconstruction of cultural mores? What fun would that be?

  10. PeterJ

    The Brignall and the Glover pieces perfectly exemplify what's happened to a once great newspaper. It's a real tragedy.

    I'd like to have left a decent comment on the Glover piece but could only harrumph......must be old age.

  11. morning all.

    if glover is the lead leader writer, is he also responsible for the leader today, which is a bit better (although levering in a gender issue, apparently due to quota issues)?

    if so, have concerns...

    speedy - i always assumed that 'mutualisation' meant 'getting people to fill column inches for free because we have no journalists left'. viz cif, world cup coverage, coming soon, make up your own TV listings and send them in...

  12. To play the devils advocate...

    So what if the Guardian is cheerleading the coalition. As I have consistently maintained, the only think I want out of politcs is a form of proportional representation, so we can live in a modern European style Democracy. Then I can vote for the party or individual I choose.

    The coalition will be the only ones who can deliver this. Do you not realise the historical importance of this, not since the 1930s have we had a national government. It simply is not an issue of left or right wing. Labour 97-2010 were not left. but what about the labour governments that were in power between 45-79. They could have brought in electoral reform, but chose not to.

    I personally believe that there should be electoral reform immediatly and then another election this year under the new system, but I accept that will not happen.

    Ad homs against people like Julain Glover, however much you disagree with him, will get you nowhere. It makes you no different than the losers on Speakyourbranes. Calling him a 'fuckwit' Jen, knowing 100% certain you will be deleted is a bit silly.

    Yes, there will have to be cuts, but what is the alternative. Of course there has to be a vredible left wing labour candidate, but it is looking like it is between David Miliband and Diane Abbot, I wouldn't hold out. All you Marxists on here- surely if you got PR you could vote for whatever party you like, ie a proper leftist party, and they would have a better chance of getting elected.

  13. Alisdair,

    Been out of the loop this weekend as I was working, but the rot set in when GMG sold it's resional biz to Trinity Mirror and the controversy over selling off Autotrader.

    I had to laugh at this;

    "the Guardian is opening itself up even further through a process called mutualisation. This is more natural for the Guardian to do than other media organisations because its roots lie in the reform movement, and therefore it feels more at ease with challenge, dissent and collaboration"

    Oh the irony, when as Jen states, dare to call vacuous schoolboy Glover to task, or mention that he is Matthew Parrish's partner and you get wiped.

    so much for being 'at ease with challenge, dissent and collaboration'.

  14. I did * fuckwit Nap so I didn't think it would be deleted. ;)

    Calling smug gits names online is the only fun I currently have, don't take that away from me.

  15. PeterJ:

    re: Glover and the phrase....

    'smell like sour yogurt' doesn't like Women much does he?

    I've not read the piece and generally cannot stand to go anywhere near the overrated 6th form drivel that he writes, but how, I wonder, did the above phrase, loaded with misogynistic meaning make it onto the published page?

    I was of the opinion that such a statement was in the homosexual lexicon used to describe a vagina and why homosexual men are disgusted by them.

  16. Someone has just posted that Julian also writes erotic fiction, doesn't that just blow your mind.

    I don't say it often but LOL.

  17. @La Ritournelle:

    Re. "sour yogurt" - I was thinking he was having a pop at Graun readers and their supposed concern with organic foodstuffs there, not women per se.

    "Tastes like stale mung beans" might have been an alternative.

    Could be wrong though - unacquainted as I am with the homosexual lexicon (unlike Julian, possibly, or probably).

  18. For those who cherish their established personae on CiF and fear that their artificial lifespans might be cut short by the maniac, scissor-wielding moderators, may I suggest to the discerning Sirs and Madams of the online world that they simply set up a separate account for the purposes of telling truth unto power?

    It's simple enough, just use Google Mail or Yahoo and you can have more false identities than a Soviet spy ring before lunchtime.

    It might even be worth following the supposed MoveAnyMountain operation and have a number of emails set up which we can all share, just logging in and out as the fancy takes us, so that we can set off stink-bombs behind enemy lines.

    I'll even set it up if anyone is not sure how to go about it.

  19. napoleon - don't deny that i am broadly supportive of the concept of coalition government and want PR, also, that something has to be done about the deficit. but to agree with something in principle is different from blindly cheerleading the specific result - the Guardian was not scared off criticising past governments because they agreed in principle with democracy (discuss).

    what narks me, and i think others here, is the lack of critique of the approach in the budget (for example), saying 'but there must be cuts', while hiding more balanced assessments of the tax / spending ratio (there have been some, am sure).

    'there must be cuts' is a cover for a deep ideological position (screw poor, cushion rich, mildly annoy people like chappy with the £43k and no Wii, but don't risk driving them away) - I would expect a better response from the G.

    criticism of a government should not be 'binary' (although Labour nearly drove us there) - there will always be good, bad, reasonable, improvable. Dealing with each issue and assessing it is the important thing - just feel that the G has 'bought in' to this to such an extent that we're in "if the president does it, it isn't illegal" territory...

  20. I watched BBC for the first time in ages last night. There was a good little programme on the building of the Rools Royce Trent engine for the new airbus dreamliners and Boeing models.

    A couple of thing in particular struck me. One was that Britain can still manufacture to the highest standards.

    Secondly and most importantly was the development of the Trent engine. It was mentioned that the development of the Trent engine bankrupted Rolls Royce and by 1972 it was going out of business. The Heath Govt rescued it with taxpayers money.

    The rest is History- a multi billion pound order company at the forefront of technology built in Britain. The comparison with the Forgemasters is apposite. Forgemasters need the loan in order to diversify into the Nuclear industry, which whether we like it or not, will create more of our power needs.

    At the moment only the Japanese manufacture what Forgemasters wishes to. This is a golden opportunity for British manufacturing to diversify into a future proof industry. And this administration is refusing to help it.

    Pure ideologogical vandalism.

    And as for the Graun and 'progressive values'. In the 1951 election, the Graun took its support away from Attlee and gave it to Churchill.

    At the forefront of the 'Reform movement' my arse.

  21. atomboy - nice idea but that could end up with 'us' arguing with 'ourself'.

    mind you, that could freak out the hatey to such an extent that they back away nervously.

    maybe we could tag-team it?

  22. So what are your nyms atomboy?

    I still have another account from when I was banned I may use it to be controversial. ;)

    I might see how quickly I can be banned again.

  23. my homosexual lexicon is currently propping up a table leg, but i think the yoghurt thing was more along the lines of muesli-eating sandal-wearing etc etc G-reader stereotypes, so didn't read it as specifically anti-woman.

    he does seem to be anti-anyone who doesn't have a good job and a nice flat i hampstead, however.

  24. WARNING!!!

    Do NOT embarrass yourselves by drooling and whimpering with envy!

    It seems the WADDYA set have been chatting about - wait for it - dinner parties!

    This is a window into the magical world of SpecialBrut.

    Do not imagine you could ever share this glamorous, hectic, helter-skelter lifestyle. Just listen and learn and try to control your filthy envy.

    Her BruShip:

    No one mentions fox-hunting at Brussels dinner parties. Fox-hunting has been banned over here for decades.

    Decoration/food/wine is important and most people know at least a few other guests (Brussels is a small community). Oxbridge accents are conspicuous by their absence as you don't meet many Dutch, Germans, italians, or indeed Lithuanians who speak Oxbridge.

    The conversation is more likely to go along the lines of who got knifed in the Commission/Parliament or who is replacing the CEO of some multinational or another. You hardly ever get away from work-related topics.

  25. SwiftyBoy:

    I think I've spent too long hanging out with gay men (obviously not the ones who hate women!) ... the resonance for me was definitely mysogynistic.

  26. PhilippaB

    Yeah, fighting like ferrets in a sack might get confusing but could also be a lot of fun. I think we would have to take it in turns, basically.


    I have literally and honestly used more names over there than I can remember.

    I do not post there any more in what I shall call "real terms" with intended slipperiness, but do maintain a type of "sleeper" presence.

  27. "Someone has just posted that Julian also writes erotic fiction, doesn't that just blow your mind."

    I wonder if he has ever used the expression "face like a plasterer's radio"?

  28. Atomboy

    I broke my rule about staying away from waddya and went over to have a look this morning, so I saw that. It reminded me of exactly why I can't stand the bloody place.

  29. 13th, I saw the one last week about nuclear subs in Barrow. Inspiring, a shame there isn't any shipbuilding on that scale north of the border anymore.

    Just had to say re:


    The best parties are held in the summer if the weather is good. What with all the candlelight/starlight and flowers, they can be straight out of Mills and Boon.

    Sweet suffering Buddha on a bassoon...

  30. SheffP:

    Fortunately, when waddya disaapears from view, I can never find it, so I am spared the inconvenience of having to read the bullshit of the terminally deluded "I'm alraight Jack's" such as Bruxelles and her jaunty dinner party life-style....!

  31. TurminderX:

    Can we be sure it's for real?

    I just caught a quick glimpse of yesterday's thread, am I right in thinking your Dad is on the mend?

  32. Sheff

    Yeah, when I glanced there a few minutes ago, SpecialBrut was trying to explain to the thickies and hoi polloi even more subtle intricacies of the Brussels jet-set lifestyle.

    Nice one from Jen about eating mussels, though.

    I think our little waiter is too stupid to notice, though.

    Perhaps we could draw up a collection of cliches and platitudes for him to draw on as need dictates.

    1. I like Holland because of the dykes.
    2. I like Paris because of the Eiffel Tower.
    3. I like to send wine and chocolates to the poor because I think it makes me look something other than a complete and utter cunt.
    4. I like ...

    Oh, FFS.

  33. Ok I am actually going to ask, can someone point me to the time Bru made enemies on here, I can see her comments for the shit they are but I think I need some background.

  34. "This is more natural for the Guardian to do than other media organisations because its roots lie in the reform movement, and therefore it feels more at ease with challenge, dissent and collaboration."

    Magical. What glorious lack of self awareness. Graun dreamworld...


    Been a good series lately, on BBC i think (though not sure if its the same one you mention), about manufacturing but all Forces stuff, i think, only saw two and even those i had on in the background, one on building those new destroyers then on nuclear subs, and as you say it is a good reminder that the nation still does actually build things, complicated, highly advanced things. It just seems most political discourse assumes we dont/cant, and so concentrates on the "knowledge economy" and bloody finance.

    That is one my favourite parts of Fantasy Island, his destruction of the mad idea that we are a big "knowledge economy" player. That really is a book everyone should read.

  35. Did anyone else see Top Gear last night?

    Alastair Campbell was on in the reasonably priced and they kept making jokes about it pulling to the left!

    And apparently he used to write porn too!

  36. Alastair Campbell used to write porn Dot.

    I am going to be going Ewww all day now.

    Imagine him and Julian in a write off.

  37. Jen

    She thought MF had written abuse about her, he hadnt, so that turned into a big row as there was no retraction or apology. It was then claimed she had suffered months of misogynistic abuse, which neither i nor others recognised as being grounded anywhere near reality, and things spiralled down since there. I dont bother with the Bru rowing myself, but in my view she was 100% wrong on that whole issue, which was how it all started - MF had not abused her, nor had anyone else to my knowledge.

    The UT is many things but a hotbed of misogyny is a little hard to argue, i think its still majority female feminist posters, or has been for large chunks of its life (in terms of active posters at any one time).

  38. jenn,

    "Imagine him and Julian in a write off."

    I'm leaning two ways with that comment, either pointing out how close the word "write" is to the word "wrist" or mentioning that "write off" has motoring connotations.

    I think I shall go with the latter, it produces more pleasant mental images!

  39. "Fortunately, when waddya disaapears from view, I can never find it, so I am spared the inconvenience of having to read the bullshit of the terminally deluded "I'm alraight Jack's" such as Bruxelles and her jaunty dinner party life-style....!"

    Does she ever do any work? Paid I mean (I can't imagine she even has to break a nail keeping a house in order). I seem to remember her holding forth a week ago about how she had no sympathy with people who wouldn't travel 30 miles to get a crummy job. She even made the hilarious comparison with young, single FO underlings having to travel across continents in order to maintain a career, seemingly oblivious to the fact that THAT IS WHAT EMBASSY STAFF DO FOR A SODDING LIVING. Do you think she actually imagines that wearing jewellery, buying frocks and posting vacuous accounts of her social life qualify her to make comments like that? It's nice to hear a range of different perspectives, and you would think a toffs-eye-view would be quite refreshing (if nothing else), so why does she make make want to shoot myself whenever she posts something? Couldn't the aristocracy rustle up a better spokesperson? What about that bloke off the 'Fucking Fulfords'. Or Prince Phillip?

  40. Dinner parties with an atmosphere out of Mills and Boon, where the conversation topic never steers far from workplace issues?

    This is what will await me in the afterlife if I don't become a good Christian, I guess ...

  41. Yeah LaRit, finally (6 weeks post 1st op) out of hospital.. : )

    & you think we have a proxy pod-person Bru? That would be a peach, if Learnean like we could copy her pic and post ever more ridiculous garbage.

    "As I was saying to his Holiness while I was helping him pack for Dear old Blighty, you'll need thermals even in July Ubersturmbahnkomandant, as he likes to be called..."

  42. You are right Jay the UT certainly isn't a hotbed of misogyny (apart from your good self ;) ) it is a place of equal opportunity hatred. :)

  43. hello all,
    I was ok until I read those articles....the Guardian is really turning into a parody and Glover I'd just like to give him multiple slaps....for starters.....

    what's this about the tories wanting to further clamp down on public sector workers strikes?
    heard it on the news here this morning anyone heard anything?

  44. Just got back from a couple of weeeks away, like the new format, although all the themed tabs are going to keep my mouse hand busy on a Friday night... Thanks for the GM Business Plan (and comments). Should be called

    "Making Patronising Bullshit Sustainable"

    As for this

    "(mutualisation).. is more natural for the Guardian to do than other media organisations because its roots lie in the reform movement, and therefore it *feels more at ease with challenge, dissent and collaboration*."

    Heh. Funny guy !

  45. This comment has been removed by the author.

  46. Welcome back bitterweed, hope you had a great holiday.

  47. "You are right Jay the UT certainly isn't a hotbed of misogyny (apart from your good self ;) "

    *blushes* Well, i do try...

  48. Previous comment deleted as Google seems to want to keep duplicate copies of everything I say and do.

  49. Jen, can't speak for other people, but i was first inducted into the awful car-crash that is a conversation with BruHaHa on a thread about science, where her argument was essentially of the lines that scientists lead a crummy existence because they don't get to hobnob at 'glitzy fundraisers' with the well-dressed and powerful (seriously). I actually thought I might have been in a minority in thinking she was a complete buffoon because I generally avoid anything she participates in, so it was a pleasant surprise to discover otherwise (as a relative newcomer to UT).

    Anyway, check it out. It's a perfect illustration of her ability to utterly miss the point and to attack other people by twisting their words to make her seem like a victim.

  50. "Incidentally I was at a rather glitzy fundraiser only yesterday evening, with some of the highest profile names in Brussels. None of them were scientists."

  51. turminder - glad to hear your dad's on the mend.

  52. and on a lighter note (well, for me, anyway - take comfort where you can) - 6Music is saved!

    Asian network's going, though...

  53. Jesus Christ Speed Kermit I couldn't stand to read much of that.

    The age of Darwin is dead indeed.

  54. Good news about 6Music Philippa. :)

  55. speedy

    That comment really is classic Bru - a more fatuous airhead it would be difficult to find.

    science just doesn't have the wow factor. Words fail me.

  56. Great comment by InvisibleDirigible on dinner parties on waddya, he could become a star.

  57. I had a fine old time thanks Jen, weather so good my pal from Egypt got sunburned.

    speedkermit - I have it on good authority that Brussels "sex in the city two" Pat is in fact an old tranny operating out of a bedsit in Datchet.

    Hope this helps.

  58. Jen great it twas!

    "I can be found at #droningbastionofselfimportance"

    classic last line...but will Bru "get it"?

  59. SK

    classic Bru this one liner had me gagging

    "What I love about my job? Being able to foresee long term political trends and getting it right almost every time. I'm a political animal really -"

    as if by magic deluded and self spring to mind instantaneously.....

  60. Being in need of a good hlaugh this morning, I went back and read all of Brus comments on that science thread. Taken together they are truly, joyously witless and crackbrained. It's really hard to believe that someone can be quite so consistently dense.

  61. BW: "speedkermit - I have it on good authority that Brussels "sex in the city two" Pat is in fact an old tranny operating out of a bedsit in Datchet."

    Well I usually like to think, given my job, that I can spot a bullshitter, but now y'all got me doubting meself. Maybe my BS detectors need a wipedown. You'd think that if she really was who she/he/it says, that they'd be plastered over the backpages of the Belgian equivalent of Hello! (if such an abomination exists).


    "science just doesn't have the wow factor". Words fail me.

    It's beautiful isn't it? As if things can be scaled and rated on the basis of whether they produce a reaction akin to seeing a fuck-off big diamond in the window of Tiffany's or a twelve tier wedding cake. Presumably, a Versace cocktail dress rates a 9.3 on the Bru Scale, whilst a Findus Crispy Pancake is a paltry 0.6.

  62. if science doesn't have a 'wow factor' then you haven't understood what the scientist is saying...

  63. Thank the FSM I didn't see that science thread at the time, think I was too busy doing some er, science! A history graduate FFS, and I'd like to smack Bru upside the head with The Origin, for starters...

  64. "Being in need of a good hlaugh this morning, I went back and read all of Brus comments on that science thread. Taken together they are truly, joyously witless and crackbrained. It's really hard to believe that someone can be quite so consistently dense."

    'They' seem to have hacked quite a few of the comments out of it. I remember it ending quite messily.

  65. Actually, I surprised Bruxelles hasn't been invited to write above the line, having just held my nose and read the Glover thread..... well, I'm lost for words!


    love that droningbastionofselfimportance.....

    I think she/he is for real - I worked with someone exactly like this....a very manipulative person to boot who always wanted to be 'Queen Bee'.... bleucchhhhh, spit, spit...


    Am so glad about your Dad - really great news ;0)


    Hello! ;0)

  66. SK
    No, I was the one bullshitting, apologies ! She is based in Brussels and pisses around doing PA / admin work from what I can tell.
    (Nothing against PA/Admin people - it's just she's online all sodding day wittering on. So she must be pissing about)

    Wotcher !

  67. Science experiments are boring in that they involve waiting and not making stuff up.

    The results however can be amazing.

    Having had to do some home experiments with the OU I would like to say thankyou to all the Lab Techs who wash the equipment up later, that is really boring.

  68. BW:

    I'd forgotten you were going on Holiday.... was going to post something today to ask where you were and up you popped!

    Wotcher back!!!

  69. Turminder

    glad your Dad's home and on the mend, must be a relief for him and you.

    good that you had a good hol

    Blimey I'm roasting here, inside my flat it's 30°C scorchio scorchio......

    I know what you mean! but it was a great finale!

  70. TurminderX:

    Was doing a bit of a Chuck D on your moniker above - apologies ;)

  71. Speaking of work, got to go... catch y'all later.

  72. Someone was finally listening at CiF HQ because the 'recommend' button is wroking again....

  73. unlike my spelling and typing!

  74. Yo, yo La Rit, TX on the wheels of steel. PE&HA! Hear Me Now!

  75. Afternoon all

    @Leni-got a reply from Bella about ESA and ATOS.She,s passed it on to Matt Seaton.No disrespect to Bella as i,m sure she,s only following procedure.But Matt Seaton FFS? He,s shown no interest in the issue so far and as he,s soon buggering off he,s unlikely to show any interest now.Will have to either wait until the new bods take over or try and bypass CIF altogether.

  76. Afternoon Paul and All, so nobody has tried by-passing CiF yet ?

  77. Like AB sed yest, go to bella's dad...

  78. This comment has been removed by the author.

  79. Unexeptional is a tit, he is funny but on the whole he is a tit.

  80. **** TECHNICAL REQUEST *****
    Anyone know if we can set up RSS feeds for this site ?


  81. Bitterweed

    There should be links at the bottom of the page for, ahem, Atom feeds.

    Much the same as RSS and most readers should process them.

    I don't think Google does RSS as such.

  82. Just no WOW factor? Check the chromoscope link at the bottom of the article!

  83. Fucking awesome Turm.

  84. AtomBoi- Cool bananas !

    I'm getting an error message there, but that may be the firewall at work. Will investigate later.... Cheers.

  85. @BW:

    Dunno if this works or not, but here are the instructions on how to set up RSS feeds in Blogger.

  86. turm

    Gorgeous picture! There's endless 'wow' factor in science, although a lot of it is hard slog. Just look at Cern - the engineering alone is a stupendous achievement never mind the ideas that prompted the building of the collider.

  87. Apparently Prof Gregg is up for tomorrow - reply on waddya from AdamBolt.

    I hope Gregg doesn't back peddle on his original statement about Incap being 'scary'. Hoping he will explain his original thinking on this and why it all went wrong.

    I suspect that his original model was based on figures and failed to include people - an inbuilt error in lots of models.

    There were clearly 'thinking gaps' in his original model.

  88. Leni

    It will be good to hear from Prof Gregg, firstly to hear what he was thinking of when he came up with his idea and secondly to find out what changed his mind.

    Well done to you and Paul for pushing it.

  89. Leni-- I looked at your yesterday link, lots of pretty inconclusive econometrics, oi reckon, but prowling onwards :)
    Professor Paul Gregg on 26/5 BBC audio

  90. Thanks for that link frog2 he sounds like a reasonable person, I do believe he has some empathy. (He will be sacked soon).

  91. frog

    I too am reading Gregg - lots looks suspect to me but I ammnot grounded in ecospeak. I apply common sense test.

    We will need to make sound points in response to his article.

    I am composing mail to Rushbridger - having to factor in Guardian's need for ad revenue and their fearing to atagonise their provisioners !

  92. MsC/princess - if you're about....

    ASSIST in Sheffield are looking for some space to house an elderly couple from Sri Lanka whose asylum claim has been refused and they're sleeping in night shelters and on the street during the day (they're in their 70's). If you can think of anything ring 07830376077 which is the ASSIST accommodation phone. Ta chucks.

  93. This comment has been removed by the author.

  94. Interesting-ish interview with Zizek in today's Telegraph. It pretty much backs up my reading of him as a super-contrarian, who wants to rip things up and start again, (plus also his being akin to Mark E.Smith), paradoxically wanting to destroy to restore. Rather goes against Peter Bracken's view of him as a plain old-time communist totalitarian apologist. I'm not a fan, but rather like the fact he seeks to be a thorn in everyone's side.

  95. Paul

    Interesting date - twixt election - formation of coalition and the budget.

    People talk about the cost of investigative journalism as tho that were the only way to expose gvt. misthink and the outcomes of faulty policies.

    There are in fact people out there - like Gregg - with the facts - the facts that are needed to challenge in an informed and intelligent way. They will be looking for public platforms to further the debate.

    Alisdair is right - we also need contrarians who stir up the mud.

  96. Leni

    Sorry i went and mistakedly cancelled the bloody thing.Me and that brush seem to be forever attracted to each other.Glad you got to read it first.

  97. @Jenn:

    I mean to be augmenting, not contradicting, Jay's explanation of the "Brulove" that you've sensed here, because I think it's important to be fair to Monkeyfish about just exactly why he, in particular despises her.

    One Sunday night last year (late summer/early autumn -- don't remember exactly when), a particularly vile, misogynist (yes, truly misogynist) troll popped up on Waddaya. One of the comments he left spoke of how much he wanted to kick women's cunts in. The rest were no better.

    Bru was a regular here at the time and she accused Monkeyfish of having been that troll. When Monkeyfish demanded a retraction/apology, she claimed that she had been the victim of a months-long campaign of vile abuse directed her way that, as Jay said, no one else seemed to remember. Well, no one but Kiz.

    When I failed to come to her "defence", she told everyone here how horribly ungrateful it was of me, in light of the wonderful parcel of chocolates that she had sent me a couple of months earlier and how sad it was for me that I would, henceforth, be missing out on future wonderful parcels that she had planned on sending me. Then, she posted a gleeful comment on Waddaya about how she had just shown me up for the truly horrible person that I am, complete with a link so that everyone could see.

    To this day, she has refused to apologise to Monkeyfish or even acknowledge that she had ever made the accusation and continues to insist that she was the victim of a campaign of abuse here. The sad/scary thing is, I think she actually believes that.

  98. Evening all

    Haven't had a chance to look at much - only just finished writing stuff out for tomorrow. But I did read the Bignall piece which made me shout so loud my husband wondered what the fuck was wrong with me. A grand a year? As someone pointed out, that is £20 a week, (or the cost of popcorn and coke for three at the local multiplex cinema a week.)

    The middle class have a duty to make sure we are paying all the tax we owe, and if necessary a bit more by way of charitable donations etc at times like this.

    It sounds idealistic and muesli-knitting, but I am looking out for my own interests too, because I really do not want to live in a world where everyone with a job has to live in a fucking gated community to protect themselves from the poor bastards with nothing. I will happily pay an extra 10% on income tax per annum to make sure that people are not starving. And if it means I will have to buy cheaper wine and pork chops instead of lamb, tough shit.

    I am just ranting now, so I shall shut up and go and read something instead.

    Oh, and dinner parties. I think it was Saturday when I posted that anyone who calls "having mates round for a meal" a dinner party needs a good kicking for their own good.

    Is this Abigail's Party or what?!!

  99. BB - I love that extra 10% and you, but don't tell anyone ;)
    In revenge for Alisdair's posting from the Torygraph, here is another from there, Edmund Conway telling it straight.
    PrincessCC has 12 recommends agreeing with him.
    Strange old world comrades.

  100. Not a bad article frog2 - especially the last bit:

    So I have one simple question: when do the politicians intend to let the public know about the fate that awaits them? The longer they put it off, the nastier the reaction, the bigger the strikes and the greater the chance that governments will fall. Don't say you weren't warned.

  101. Thank god I'm sorry I haven't a clue is back on R4 - thats one guaranteed half an hours laugh a week.

  102. Hi Pixie 18.55 -- a while back, you mentioned doing leaflets and/or posters. Regular practice in frogland among teachers and others like tradeunionists who have access to 'free' photocopying.It's quite an art getting them right. Advertising in a good cause as it were .

  103. BB
    "I think it was Saturday when I posted that anyone who calls "having mates round for a meal" a dinner party needs a good kicking for their own good. "

    Aye, I tend to just send a text out saying 'pie?' and then wait to see who turns up.

    But then, I am immensely well-bred...

  104. It is all going to explode in their faces. I can't help thinking that this has been planned, too. The shoring up of security in Whitehall in the form of installing very-pretty-looking balustrades in front of building which have iron cores (unless it was just cos they don't want that boxer bloke whose name escapes me driving his truck into buildings any more...), the raft of "anti-terrorist" legislation that is still on the statute books that can, essentially, turn us into a V-For-Vendetta authoritarian state overnight with a stroke of the pen if "national security" is mooted...


    I am trying to work out what their ideal outcome would be. I wonder if it is to destroy the welfare state as it stands and privatise everything Omni Consumer Products (Robocop) -stylee?

    I am still ranting... and I haven't even had a beer yet (or maybe it is because I haven't had a beer yet).

    Frog2 - t'es mignon! Bisous x

  105. "access to 'free' photocopying"

    Hah. Used to know a girl who was doing work experience at Matrix Chambers, and would always turn up with loads of stuff she had nicked from their stationery cupboard.

    Which she referred to as "liberating it for the Revolution". :o)

  106. Philippa - I like the idea of that. Just texting "Food, tonight, mine..." seems like a good idea from now on.

  107. BB
    Or even "Some food tonite - bring a plate"

    Works here.

  108. Harrumph.

    Underworld are playing the iTunes festival at the Roundhouse on the 17th and all the tickets are given away at random.


    Loads of numpties who only know them for the "Lager Lager Lager" song will be bored shitless until they actually play it, and little ole me, their NUMBER ONE FANZORRR!!!!!!!!!!1111ONES can't even buy a ticket.

    What is the fucking world coming to, eh?

    I've done entries in my name, my husband's name and my son's name...Fingers crossed.

  109. Leni

    Also a good idea. Hadn't thought of that one (although sometimes if we are firing up the barbie, we will say "we've got x, y and z to cook, anything else you want bring it with you.")

  110. No need to even bring a bottle to Chateau Frog. Plenty of Normandy cider 'ere.


    BB teamwork works. Zap them. ( Like those nice cops in Trafalgar Square, apartheid-era, one swings you round, the other neatly clunks the side of the jaw.) We've done a bit of that at CiF, just good tactics.

  111. Mmmm.. Normandy cider. Lurvely.

    I'z gots me some calvados in the cupboard. Forgot about that! Might have a nip of it later.

    I use it my fave recipe, which is Veau Normand. Veal, shallots, apples, calva, creme fraiche.

  112. Alisdair

    Thanks for the link to zizek I proposed an article about a month or so ago on waddya...nathalie harman said she was on it and then........nothing...no doubt fell into the evil hands of seaton.....off to read it now and to complain.....

  113. Of course commercial calvados is a pale imitation of the aged peasants' stash, which is just too good for cooking with.
    With the new age of austerity which is sure to come, globalisation obliging at long last, home cider-making will recommence. Google " andrew lea cider". Easy, no profits to capitalists, and better too.

  114. Normandy Cider ?! Calvados ?!!

    Bollocks. Get some Cornish Lizard Cider Barn "Cider Brandy" like I've just got. Awesome, and half the price of that French nonsense.


    (also available in sober)

  115. BB

    Put together these common phrases:

    "Car alarm" and "right up a snakes arse"

    That'll be Underworld then.

  116. "Thank god I'm sorry I haven't a clue is back on R4"

    Seconded, Shef.

  117. Bitterweed 20.32 -- bollocks to you too , craft cider-makers are an international fraternity from finland to fucking australia.

  118. I see Panorama are running a nice puff piece for Chris Woodhead. Specious opening: "What profession doesn't have five to ten per cent of its workforce that is incompetent ?"

    Er, I don't know Chris. How about bowel suregeons. Aricraft pilots. Tree surgeons ?

    And who is that woman with the miss Miss Piggy hairflick on whose presenting it by the way ? "I've got a laptop, a flicky hair habit *and* a decent Audi; watch out you useless teacher bastards !!!"

    Thanks Panorama. You've made the world a safer, better educated place.


  119. frog2
    Heh, thanks, amazed/glad there's a cider making *fraternity* out there at all.

    Finland too ? That I would never have guessed...

  120. Right. Off to watch several backed-up weeks worth of Luther now. He's my kind of bastard.

  121. I used to make cider in Normandy years ago. was a summer job and brilliant fun... also got to keep some of the spoils as well.

    and hello all.

    there's an article up on the front page of the Graun for comment about Sharia Law and stoning - following yesterday's discussion.

  122. BW -- that guy was always an arsehole.
    Easy to see, but nofucker saw it.Except us.

  123. I thought Luther was quite good, of the few episodes I saw.

    Totally far-fetched, but still intriguing. I liked the characterisations.

    I missed the penultimate one, though, I have no idea why it was his mate killed Luther's missus...

  124. BB
    Yes, I be back, ha ha, but now need to catch up with several episodes of that incendiary cross between Gene Hunt and Grant Mitchell (and that bloke off the wire)


  125. Montana thanks for that explanation it clears things up.

  126. Luther all got very complicated, but it was magnificently melodramatic and quite compelling.

    Looking forward to what happens next. Though I usually hate this kind of crime show, i got totally drawn in.

  127. jennifera30, earlier:

    “the UT certainly isn't a hotbed of misogyny”

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but as someone who used to be a regular but now only looks in occasionally, it’s beginning to look like one.

    Examples? Here’s a few:

    “if they're going to tell me that they love their work and they're doing it because it's easy money -- I'm going to tell them that I think they're sluts. Because if that is really the case -- then I do think they're sluts”

    “What percentage of the population is affected by prostitution? Far less than 1%, I reckon. Who fucking cares?”

    “Sorry babe you’ve just exposed yourself for the ignorant bint you really are”

    “Bindel alert, Bindel alert…”

    Whether or not the people making these comments are misogynists (and I’m sure they’d all deny it indignantly), their comments certainly are, at least in my eyes.

    What disappoints me is that they seem to be all too common, whereas when I attempt to address one of them, as I did last week, I get accused of being an imposter, and then asked:

    ”Andy, mate. You know I love you to bits, but why are you trying to get us to say what we think?”

    And although everyone has the right to make what ever comments they like, and no one is obliged to challenge what anyone else says, I’m fucking disappointed that (with a very few honourable exceptions) most of you don’t actually seem to have the courage to stand apart from the crowd and challenge misogyny when it’s staring you in the face.

    Still can’t post you-tube links, but if I could the most appropriate one might be “Don’t Rock The Boat” by The Hues Corporation.

    Or maybe “If You Tolerate This…” by The Manics.

  128. Hotbed of misogyny? You've put up four comments devoid of any context. The first seems a pretty cast iron case, I'd agree. The second probably strays more into the realm of general misanthropy. The third rides on the intended sense of bint which seems something of an etymological hot-potato..unless you're referring to 'babe' which seems to me more patronising and over-familiar than misogynist... and the last, "Bindel alert", is simply a notification that an especially amusing piece of reportage has just made its appearance..the gender of the author is immaterial...a traincrash is a traincrash..whoever's driving.

    Not convinced Andy..no argument on quote 1 but one comment does not a hotbed of misogyny make...unless you're from Brussels, where one comment you don't like somehow amounts to months of abuse.

  129. Maybe some of us just don't like confrontation and scroll on by, Andy.

    Maybe others don't see misogyny the same way you do.

    Maybe others, again, have enough shite going on in their lives without picking fights with people online as well.

    There are ninety-twelve reasons why people might not call people out on something that they find annoying.

    If people feel the need to say something they will say it. But posting here once in a blue moon and saying "look at what he/she said - why aren't you all up in arms?" is kind of naive and, frankly, irritating imo.

    And there is nothing wrong with saying "Bindel alert" any more than there is anything wrong in saying "McShame alert". It has nothing to do with their gender and everything to do with the appalling quality of their arguments.

  130. Numbed -- it's been some time now I wanted to say Hello, been following you. FFS don't tell everyone else how good life is here, or it'll get crowded ;)

    I'm not getting involved in Sharia Law. The world is full of shit and evil, and I decide to concentrate the very little that I do actually concentrate, on the small bits that are close to me .

    And at the moment I confess I"m not even doing that. A few months ago a family threatened with deportation got saved, but that was all the work of dedicated others,an alliance of Christians and Communists. I gave a few euros which is bugger all.

  131. Hi Frog.

    I'm not commenting yet on the Sharia thread. I wish I understood the details well enough to, but I don't.

    I know in my guts that persecuting women is fundamentally wrong, just as I believe strongly that religion has no place in our legal systems. However, there's some astute commentators there already and it's turned into a technical discussion that I'm interested in following at the least.

    Like you, I save my artillery for the subjects I do have a lot of reasearch, knwoledge and evidence for.

  132. That 21.32 was in reply to numbed's 20.53 post.

  133. I haven't commented either yet, Numbed.

    I am not entirely sure of the legal status of the Shariah councils, not having come across it in my work so far - although it is fair to say I don't do a great deal of work in family law these days.

    I suppose in the same way that an Anglican would go to their priest to seek guidance regarding a forthcoming divorce or separation, you can't expect a person of another faith not to pay attention to what the Imam has to say.

    I do know for a fact that the males in a family, under Shariah, are supposed to take on the responsibility for the females, as Musa1 said in one of his posts, because of a muslim guy I know, who is constantly worrying about whether his sisters have got enough money.

    Yes, that is sexist, but it might also explain why, in general terms, the men inherit more than the women.

  134. Well, the first quote is from me. Misogyny is the general hatred of all women, so I utterly fail to see how saying that I think that a woman who would fuck men for money because she thinks it's a quick, easy way to make a wad is a slut amounts to misogyny.

    And, frankly, I resent the hell out of a man telling me what I should find misogynistic or offensive.

  135. Hi numbed

    All that rather pales into insignificance if you look at my link not far upthread about pensions.

    Having been moderated then completely fucking extinguished around at CiF on the last Shiner thread, I risk becoming like many others here totally pissed off with it.

    Fuck my boots.

    I was murderously rude about MAM in two lines.

    I outlined the case that the Queens Lancashire Regiment ( abu mousa) was the most drug-ridden indisciplined battalion in the Army. Open-source refs there if needed.

    I finished by pointing out that the MoD finally paid out , fifty whole fucking years later, to the family of the LAC killed in Sarin experiments at Porton Down.


  136. BB you saw what I wrote ...

  137. Frog2

    Yeah - and I really don't understand why it was modded, other than it might have been considered to be libellous (or that someone was reporting the post both times).

  138. #I suppose in the same way that an Anglican would go to their priest to seek guidance regarding a forthcoming divorce or separation, you can't expect a person of another faith not to pay attention to what the Imam has to say.#

    ..especially as..if it's a man, he's gonna be told what he wants to hear and if it's a woman it'll be "do as you're told"..and as for fuckin Anglicans..are they an actual species? I hear 'Anglican', think "Vicar of Dibley" and figure they're a mythological sect conjured up to make the public school Oxbridge mafia that monopolise BBC "comedy" feel urbane, superior and good about themselves.

    Do they really go to vicars and ask them what to do?

    #Yes, that is sexist, but it might also explain why, in general terms, the men inherit more than the women.#

    ..er..you sure about this one?...you trying to justify it or explain the origin of the practice?...the two are independent..if something's wrong, it's wrong...doesn't matter if there was some misguided good intent at its conception...doesn't matter if it's an established cultural norm..doesn't matter if it 'used to be OK'...if it's wrong it's wrong.

  139. I think the "Yes, that is sexist" bit might give you a clue as to what my motivation was, MF :o)

    It is like the Victorian attitude of women not being able to inherit money because they were incapable little souls who had no clue what to do with it, and evil men would just take advantage of them if they did, so best give it to the boys instead.

    Sexist. Not good. No. No likey. Bad bad bad!


    And I have got Anglican friends who seek the advice of their vicar.

    When I was a fully-paid-up member of a Buddhist organisation, I would sometimes go along and see an "elder" for advice too if I was faced with a conundrum that was bugging me.

    They didn't make me sign anything to say it was binding, though. Unlike what seems to be happening in these Shariah councils.

  140. BB 22.08
    "Yeah - and I really don't understand why it was modded, other than it might have been considered to be libellous (or that someone was reporting the post both times). "

    Re - post to see if it was libellous --

    I see that a lot of suckers have fallen into the MAM-trap and gone down side-alleys.The MAM knows **** all about the Army and most of the rest of its subjects too. Anyone who has been in one of the Arms will have met people you wouldn't trust with a prisoner. I remember those were exactly my thoughts 44 years ago about one particular L.Bdr RHA. They were definite enough for me still to remember clearly today.

    The under-strength Queens Lancashire Regiment was the worst possible one to be responsible for the city of Basra. SIB ( branch of RMP) reported widespread drug-use and lousy discipline way back. Enough thugs to weaken the whole structure. Imagine then, those guys being given instructions to soften up suspects before interrogation, and of course there were not enough interrogators, so it went on and on. They were not even trying to get information , the worst elements were having fun.

    In a decent battalion or regiment there is still I'm sure a culture that is maintained by good officers and NCO's. I wonder what proportion of the Army they are now ..

    Reading the link above to the RMP major, it is obvious that the RMP, particularly the SIB, has been in serious decline, with good people escaping. (There is other evidence around, not just one man.) The senior ranks of the Army have gone along with this, and the MoD is morally deficient as always. Remember it took the MoD fifty whole ******* years to pay compensation to the family of the LAC killed by Sarin experiments at Porton Down.


    The only ever-so-slightly dubious bit is my ref to previous investigations ( actually under-cover SIB) into drug-use etc in the QLR.

    So what were the mods objecting to? Anti- MAM ?

  141. I have no idea, Frog2, frankly. Unless you have touched a nerve and someone has complained about it.

    But if people were modded for being anti-MAM, there would be no bugger left posting on CiF :o)

  142. And there is nothing wrong with saying "Bindel alert" any more than there is anything wrong in saying "McShame alert".
    but bb no one ever seems to say 'mc shane alert' i think that was the point.

  143. I’m baffled with the obsession with bru; surely bb is at least as much of a narcissistic nonentity, with less self reflection, if that’s possible. Someone needs to explain to her the whole deal with a middle class self congratulatory ego trip is that you use your privileges to do something worthwhile, helping men dodge their child support doesn’t actually count, though what can you expect from someone whose profession generally demands the ethics of the next cheque.

  144. # think the "Yes, that is sexist" bit might give you a clue as to what my motivation was#

    it initially pointed me in that direction..but you're quoting selectively.

    It was actually "Yes, that is sexist, but"..and as you know, the 'but' changes everything. I refer you to.."I'm not a racist, but.." etc

    I'm not having a go..I'm just saying. I fuckin hate the thought of two separate legal codes...it's bollocks and the fact that the notion is even discussed is not unrelated to the whole consumer-choice, 'meeting customer needs', non-judgemental, craven, meretricious bullshit emanating from NuLabour for so long which took the place of politics.

    That kinda thing has no place..one law..only way it works

    As it goes, I'd like to kick the shit out of the smarmy bastard who lives over the road. When I step outside my front door I'm on the pavement..and..God save her Britannic Majesty...I'm not allowed to put up a deckchair and crack open a Special Brew..I've even been threatened with a £500 fine..thanks to the smarmy fucker opposite and his hotline to the local gendarmerie..cunt's probably a mason..he looks the type.

    I'd love to nip into my local Legislative Superstore and have a qualified legislator draw up a personalised legal code based on my needs and cultural requirements. It would include the inalienable right to jump up and down on the guy in the street with a can of beer in both hands..but..y'know...might sound a bit harsh but so's treating women like shit through holy writ.

  145. Yeah, but some buggers kill MAM better than others .
    So touching what nerve , and who , MoD ?

  146. that what you said to the mum persuing money for her kids bb

  147. Can't disagree with you much there, MF.

  148. I’ve often wondered how your family’s feel about all the time and energy your little hobby takes up. Presumably for bbs partner it’s a relief, fuck me she’s obnoxious enough in a few sentences I can’t imagine what it’s like in the flesh. At least its time he can spend shagging the secretary without feeling guilty or worrying about getting caught.

  149. Frog2

    MoD? Who knows? Could be.

    Weren't the Royal Lancashire supposed to have been involved in putting some guy in the back of a truck and beating the shit out of him, and The Scum had photos of it? Then it all turned out to be a hoax. I wonder if the media have been a tad sensitive about anything said about them since then...

    I will try and find a linky to it, but I am pretty sure it was something like that.

  150. Aha! Found it!!

    It was Piers Morgan and the Mirror, not the Scum. And he got the sack for it.

  151. Maybe there is just a siren and a red gyrophare (can't think of the name in english - revolving light thingy) that goes off at Grauniad Towers every time the QLR are mentioned?

  152. just as I might have exspected from a woman so fucking witless shes chosen to have her main relationship with her laptop, you have all the sensitivity of a toilet seat.

  153. just for the record, i didn't go trip trapping over the bridge.

    so, where did the troll come from?

  154. LMFAO!

    I have no idea, numbed. Best not to feed them, though. :o)

  155. fariha -- life is so good NOT being a poisonous piece of vermin, you might aim to improve yourself...

  156. BB ---- no bullshit about it, they did have too many hardcases, who for some years degenerated the whole battalion.
    Itsa diffrent cultcha ma chere.
    Even among the hard cases, they know the difference between being 'hard' and being a sadistic motha.
    The wisdom of the squaddy ain't that far away from yours and mine.

  157. Haven't seen the sharia piece - might go and have a look in a bit. But we've had theBeth Din in the UK for donkey's years, without most people even being aware of it. Some aspects of Orthodox Judaism are very oppressive imo, especially for women.


    Since you have now outed yourself as an offensive troll I shall ignore you Say what you will - you are simply tedious text on a screen which can be happily scrolled past.

  158. Argh. Bedtime.

    Ecole demain! :p

    Night night everyone x

  159. ♫ BB's got a stalker ! ♫
    ♫ BB's got a stalker ! ♫

  160. Heh. Night you mysoginist bastards.

  161. "♫ BB's got a stalker ! ♫
    ♫ BB's got a stalker ! ♫ "


    It's the way I tell 'em. :o)

    Deffo n-night now though. x

  162. BB -- cd give you links to squaddyspeak -- not bad guys, even pretty good ones , but hard. A different world than our peaceful middle class one.
    wot is the mail for Seaton?

  163. Sheff

    The Beth Din is a problem for those who want to stop Sharia concils operating here. They would have to ban Beth Din too - long established here.

    I am for a single system of law however I am sure that some RC couples would consult priest if considering divorce. They would still be free to make independent choice if they wanted to.

    Many Muslim women here do not want Sharia law - even in civil matters or family concerns - they feel safer without it .

    It is a difficult one as not all Muslim men are repressive and most would not choose to control their women. This does not help those women who are controlled by men. The Jehovah's witnesses and some Born again types treat women as second class but manage to keep a low profile.

    On other matters - what is the cyber equivalent of Big Billy Goat Gruff?

  164. frog2

    Pretty much just veering past the laptop on the way to bed, but they all follow the same format at The Guardian:

    firstname (dot) lastname (at) guardian (dot) co (dot) uk



    will do the job nicely.

  165. Can't find the Sharia thread

  166. The Beth Din is a problem for those who want to stop Sharia concils operating here. They would have to ban Beth Din too - long established here.

    I know Leni...and I understand the issues it raises. Its why HMG would rather not have to make any decisions one way or the other about Sharia councils.

    Sharia councils already exist in the UK anyway - that they are generally bad for women is a given.

  167. @ Leni: if you are tuned in; ok, you win, I've re-visited the crime scene and it's a fair cop.
    Since I will be lodging a guilty plea for mixing my metaphors can I hire BB to put the case for mitigating circumstances on a pro bono basis?
    When will I be sentenced?

  168. Leni

    Can't find the sharia thread

    Neither could I.

  169. @Montana or anyone else with a working knowledge of US English:

    It has been established by women, many of whom identify as whatever ...

    Microflab text reckons that should be who.

    Any tips?

  170. OK William Strunk Jr. & E.B. White have ridden to my rescue with their The Elements of Style:

    Virgil Soames is the candidate who we hope will win.

    Virgil Soames is the candidate whom we hope to elect.

    who it is then.

  171. @Leni, @Sheff

    The sharia thread was right down the bottom of yesterday's Guardian front page, so now it's disappeared from there.

    You can find it here.

  172. Guardian - 2008. Paul Gregg on his then proposed changes to Incap. Interesting to compare it with tomorrows piece.


  173. Hi Leni

    Apparently Chris Grayling-the Tory Minister of State at the DWP-is vigorously countering Prof Greggs claims.Apparently he believs that ATOS are doing a good job because of the number of new claimants who have withdrawn their claims rather than face a medical.And the number of people who have had their claim for ESA refused as a result of the ATOS medical but have NOT gone on too appeal.

    Plus there is talk that the Appeals Process is too soft.I thought they may try and knobble the Appeals Process if they could.And another interesting fact has also been thrown into the mix.Apparently 39% of people who are not legally represented at the Appeals Hearing are successful compared to 70% of people who do have representation.And i,m sure Alisdair said that rises to 80% with claimants who have certain MH health problems.

    These Tory bastards may well dig their heels in here.The sick and the disabled are after all easy pickings for savings.God knows how this will unfold.Doubt i;ll be on-line much tonight so Nite to you and the night shift.And let,s hope Professor Gregg does the business tomorrow.And more importantly the Guardian at long last come off the fence and start campaigning to get these ATOS medicals stopped.

  174. Can authoritarianism ever be justified, in the name of the greater good?

    posed young Nap. (a 29p red bull clone from Lidl does wonders for one's mind)

    For example, I was thinking on the library thread today, and CathElliots rather intersting posts, from her own personal perspcetive.

    I maintain from that thread, that yes a sense of authoritarianism is a good thing. Take libraries, get rid of all the cheap tacky airport novels and empty turgid lifestyle stories and replace them with more intellectual literature. This is authoritarian, but so what, 'giving the people what they want' has resulted in ghastly figures like Rupert Murdoch spreading his nefarious influence and helped devastated society- his readership are nearly always the ones who suffer from the Neoliberal dystopia that is Britain. In that case shutting down the Sun and kicking the Murdoch dynasty and their servile followers out of Britain would be justified.

    If you think this is anti working class and elitist to fill the libraries with better books- that is incorrect- it is the Marxist dialecticians who say that 'the people' have to read their 'bread and circuses' literature that are patronising and elitist. Especially those that put people into 'classes'. Why can't poor people read Nabokov? Even more so, why is poverty only described in material terms (obviously thid is still an issue for many)

    I love libraries, they are a temple for me. They are free, there is nothing saying people in financially poor situations cannot pick up serious literature (unless they have reading difficulties I suppose).

    All you class wearriors- talking about lopping hte heads off the ruling class and bankster class- why don't you pity them instead. Many of them live very Nihilistic meaninful lives. Sure they have homes around hte world, hoidays to the Caribbean, material possesisons, but many of them live sad lives. If life is a quest for meaning, then surely an educated and enquiring mind is preferable to nhilistic instability. Which is precisely what libraries would do, so even the poorest in society would be wealthier than the 'richest'.

    Christ, I sound like Raskolnikov, expounding his theory.

    Death to the class system.
    Death to left and right.
    Vive la meritocracie.
    Vive la humanite.

  175. ATOS?

    "Through its business division Atos Healthcare, Atos Origin Atos Origin holds a business process outsourcing contract with the United Kingdom Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to provide medical assessments for benefits purposes. Initially awarded to Sema Group (subsequently purchased by Atos) in 1998, the contract was renewed for a further five years in March 2005.

    In 2008 it was reported that Atos Origin had lost a memory stick which was supposed to contain the confidential data of 12 million users of the Government Gateway website, a separate project that Atos Origin was awarded by the DWP. The DWP later confirmed that the memory stick had only held the data of just a handful of people and all of their password information was encrypted."

    Hmm, yes, there is reason to fear outsourcing.

  176. Where's "deano"? You ok mate? Been thinking about you.
    I can only speak for myself but I miss you on here.

  177. Hi chekhov

    Metaphor mixing brings down the high literary and intellectual standards of the UT - please desist.

    Agree about missing Deano - hope he is ok.

    Are you there deano ?

  178. Jonathan R Shaw (Minister of State (Disabled People), Regional Affairs; Chatham & Aylesford, Labour)

    The Department for Work and Pensions re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd., trading as Atos Healthcare, a new contract to perform medical services on behalf of the Department from 1 September 2005.

    The total cost of these services from 1 March 2008 to February 2009 was £80,589,204. This figure not only covers the total number of examinations undertaken across all benefits, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements.

    The individual cost of medical assessments carried out by Atos Healthcare is commercially sensitive information. To disclose this information would prejudice the interest of Atos Healthcare and the Department's future dealings with Atos Healthcare or other service providers.

  179. Nap: the "proles", for want of a better word will find the literature to educate themselves should they choose to do so.
    There is a long tradition of working class intellectuals who decided they weren't going to be fobbed off with the "bread and circuses" tripe.

    However I was watching a movie yesterday on Film 4: "A Matter of Life and Death" directed by Powell and Pressburger. It was made in 1946. Apart from the outstanding photography by Jack Cardiff, this line stood out from the script:
    "Stupidity has saved many a man from going insane"!

    Whoever coined the phrase; "Ignorance is Bliss" was very astute in that observation.

  180. Leni: sorry about that. I'll stick to mixing Gin and Tonics rather than metaphors!

  181. ATOMBOY 23.47 ever so very slightly menacing e-mail sent to Seaton . 'I wanta serious answer'.

  182. (Anton Pavlovich) Chekhov

    "Nap: the "proles", for want of a better word will find the literature to educate themselves should they choose to do so.
    There is a long tradition of working class intellectuals who decided they weren't going to be fobbed off with the "bread and circuses" tripe."

    Agree 100% coming from a family of working class intellectuals on my dads side, yet I am skeptical. From my own observations, anti intellectualism is on the rise. I also feel there is less of a sense of 'W.C.I' in mainstream society today- not someone I can accurately verify, but an educated hunch.

    With that- time for bed. Goodnight.

  183. NapK -- are you as pissed as me ?

  184. chekhov

    Ignorance is bliss is only part of the quote - the rest is "where it's folly to be wise" .

    Sometimes ignorance can kill you - as can knowing too much.

  185. @Medve:

    No, no, no! Microflab is wrong! It's 'many of whom. Of is a preposition -- and prepositions are always followed by the objective pronoun.

    Women, many of whom....

    Trust me.

  186. Montana

    for whom
    of whom
    to whom etc.

  187. Leni -- those sub-conractors for Health Services are really fucking evil Mothas. Tentacles everywhere. A 30yr friend of the frog2princess worked briefly for some of them. Fucking nightmare for a normal humane being.She left.

  188. Great comment from northred on the Jackie Ashley thread (northred in bold, stevehill in italics):

    I'm economically and financially qualified, a former partner in a Big Four accounting firm, and a former lawyer.

    This must have brought you into contact with a lot of benefit scroungers.

    Perhaps you were helping them with their cases; like the lawyers who made millions from Government compensation for injured miners in my area, South Yorks, and who then illegally took a percentage of the miner's award.

    At least two were struck off. How about if I start calling all lawyers scroungers?

    I don't care what you think of me.

    I didn't expect you to. It's fairly clear from your posts that you don't care about anything very much apart from yourself. Which is perhaps why you go on...

    You write as if you have a vested interest in benefit scrounging.

    Empathy for those less fortunate is completely beyond your experience, isn't it? The person concerned must really have some ulterior selfish motive. Like you would have. Personal gain.

    Hence, I must be a benefit scrounger.

    For all your contempt for benefit scroungers, and there are some out there I admit, you seem to display a good deal less humanity than many of them do. That's my experience anyway. So I wouldn't come on too high and mighty if I were you; from where I'm sitting you don't look much.

  189. frog

    Disabled and terminally ill people will have medical evidence of diagnoses and treatment - already NHS funded. The xtra costs of reassessment are completly unecessary. Add to this the appeals costs.

    Incidentally - can't your princess kiss you and change you back into a prince - please don't destroy my faith in fairy stories.

  190. fog

    Further to above

    The costs of It etc is also funded by gvt - lucky private company. I assume their systems are replaced every three years ?

    My son volunteers for CAB - maintains their IT systems. Their equipment is ancient, ill matched . Grant funding NA. Tim basically holds them together with string and voluble cursing.

  191. Frog

    Sorry - I see I transformed you into something rather nebulous.

  192. leni: "Ignorance is bliss where it is folly to be wise"
    Do you have a source for that quote?

  193. chekhov

    Didn't Orwell say something like " If there is hope it lies with the Proles" ?

  194. Why do all comments disappear when they reach 200? I must avoid posting when nearing the magic number.

  195. It sounds sort of Shakespearian.