27 June 2009

Daily Chat 27/06/09

Precious little happened on this day in history and no one terribly interesting is having a birthday today, so I'm just going to dedicate the day to SwiftyBoy and any other British veterans or servicemen known and loved to readers of the Untrusted with sincerest thanks.


  1. Emma Goldman's birthday today; "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things."

  2. Sorry, forgot. Good evening Montana.

  3. Second that one SwiftyB

    Yorks Anon

  4. How could you miss this, Montana?

    June 27th 1693 1st woman's magazine "Ladies' Mercury" published (London)

    Swiftyboy thirded.

  5. Thank you Montana and everyone else, very thoughtful. Got to go and keep daughter entertained for the next 4 hot hours now til MrsSB returns from work, have a good day all.

  6. Here's to my friend Phil who served 18 years in the RN. No longer with us, but never forgotten.

  7. Funny thing is... not sure I agree with the notion of Armed Forces Day. There are already plenty of ways to "support your local soldier" if you're so minded, not sure we need a day to remind us of what soldiers do.

    It'll never be up there with Armistice Day, which is the one that always gets me.

  8. It's a catch 22 swifty, you have to support it in a way even though you're not sure it's appropriate. Unlike Armistice Day, as you say, which has real gravitas.

  9. @MsChin:

    "It's a catch 22 swifty, you have to support it in a way even though you're not sure it's appropriate"

    Quite right, and that's part of what I don't like about it. People have the absolute right to disagree with the role of soldiers, to disagree with what they do for a living, to disagree with the whole nasty business of killing other people for your country... I'd suggest there's nothing offensive about not supporting Armed Forces Day. It's just a day dreamed up by a government desperately looking to tap into some, any, kind of issue which has broad public support, and gain some kind of reflected credit, or kudos, by association with it.

  10. I agree Swifty its one of those ghastly Nulab 'Britishness' stuff isn't it? What really annoys me is the pro-Iraq war people who tell me that I 'don't care about our boys'! Actually being against the war makes me care even more. Sending British men and women of to fight and die for reasons that have nothing to do with the defence of this country makes me very angry indeed.

    War is such an awful waste of young lives. (not just young lives actually - not all those civilians are young are they (although many are children)?

  11. @anne:

    War is a waste of everything, frankly. Lives, money, resources, time... if the politicians who sanction it had to do a bit of the dirty work at the sharp end, they'd soon realise what a thoroughly bloody unpleasant day out it is.

    All that being said, I did hugely enjoy being a soldier, it taught me a number of very valuable things. But I was young then, and certainly of a different, more carefree mindset than I am today.

  12. Afternoon chaps, have a query.
    As i was put on the naughty step I went back under another name. I am now unable to post under it although I can sign on. My profile is unavailable.
    Is this the work of the graun or is it my computor. It is quite pointless posting as the stoat as ones comment only appears the next day.
    Perhaps I'm expected to grovel a bit?

  13. @ all

    Reassuring to read your collective and sensitive comments - empathy to all.

    I'm a white poppy sort of guy but happy to second a round of applause for SB et al - at the personal level - because I have come to appreciate what I see/read as their genuine concern for others.

    I have read the occasional 'reflection' in SB's comments on his military experience before thus what he writes today is no great surprise. I take it as a mark of the guys integrity.

    That he has such a great sense of humour and warmth for others - despite having taken the Queens shilling gives me hope for the future.

    I am of that age where they just phased out National Service so I never even had to wear a uniform (hippy apart) and face the questions but I know that many older male friends found the experience important and formative. As I understand it being in the military can't half teach you a lot about life and especially one's self.

    Best W and kind regards SwiftyBoy and all others affected.


  14. Thank you deano, that's very kind of you to say so, old boy, very kind indeed.

  15. @ Colinthestoat

    When I have those sort of problems I simply invent another me ( as a diagnostic tool) and use that persona to test where the fault is likely to lie.

    Keep a diary of who/what/where/when you are else you loose track of the passwords etc. Equally once you have a spare you in the back pocket you can test the situation quickly in future.

    The 'spare' deano don't slag folk off his testo speciall much diluted!

  16. @colin:

    do you mean "is it IP-address-based, or login-based"?

    I think it's login-based, CiF, so as long as you're not trying to use the same email address for your new nom de guerre, you should be OK.

  17. Gents, I signed in as ursus45 and it went ok for a while, didn't get modded or nuffing, then, last night I was unable to see my profile although I was signed in. Also I dont have the make a comment type box. Paranoia tells me it is the Graun doing it but common sense says why would they bother?

  18. Colin: That sounds a bit dodgy.

    Maybe you could check whether you’re still able to post as colinthestoat.

    If you are, then the problem must be with your new ID, and if that worked before, someone at CiF must (presumably) have done something to prevent you posting.

    Have you said anything which they might have taken offence at?

    Do the mods normally send you an e-mail to let you know you’re banned? (I know they don’t when you’re in pre-mod).

    If all else fails, maybe an enquiry about your new account’s failure to work (no need to mention the old one) would be the way forward.

    Or just set up yet another e-mail account and CiF ID. Yawn...

  19. Andy,
    The stoat can post ok but comments only appear a couple of hours later. I've done nothing much as ursus to offend. Perhaps I'm supposed to serve my sentence as stoat like a good boy.
    At the moment my rage and contempt are such as to preclude my communicating with these turds.
    I know it's easy enough to set up a new account but I was just curious about this. I didn't have this trouble even when I suggested that Julie Burchill might be a tad overweight. But, as you say, Yawn...

  20. Afternoon all, and best wishes and deep respect to Swifty and all who have served.

    I'm with Anne and Deano in the "Support Our Boys - Bring Them Home" camp on this, too.

    I repped a young soldier in the Mags for something really trivial recently - he was just about to be deployed to Afghanistan, and I really really couldn't see the public interest in the government on the one hand pressing for a minor charge for which he would have got a fine or a conditional discharge while on the other hand sending him to kill and possibly die for his country.

    The trial had to be adjourned and I didn't rep him after that so I have no idea whether he was convicted or not, but it really really did piss me off.

  21. colinthestoat
    I had the same problem last night as a brand new me on someone els's PC, could be server side...

  22. Bitterweed,
    Enough to make anyone bitter. Yes, well I've sorted the posting problem bur ursus would seem to be dead, but I'm saying no more. Just look out for some stranger who seems to know you. I have come to believe that they would sink so low as to clock this site in pursuit of us evil doers.
    I wish I had a life.

  23. Colin: I’ve just had a look for ursus45’s profile and got the

    “This user profile is not available”

    message. So it’s apparently not a problem at your end.

    Word to the wise – those of us who’ve found it necessary to set up new IDs on CiF usually don’t reveal them on The Untrusted, for the very reason you’ve mentioned.

  24. I salute you swiftyboy - but am with Deano and the others with the current situation

    Don't give up stoaty - you add to the gaity on cif - which it needs - well you make me laugh.

    I believe our Julie is about to convert to Judaism - so perhaps Israel will have the pleasure soon. Another Mel P on the block? gawd help us.

  25. @ MR stoat

    I have no doubt whatsoever that they clock this site.

    Cath was here only last night - to a delightful and warm riposte from Hank!

  26. @ andy

    Stoat didn't that I recall. I guessed and enquired in a sub text if he was *****45 and he later affirmed.

    They would have to be reading everything very carefully and thinking hard to have made the link.

    For the avoidance of doubt deano aint a grass!!

  27. These lads and girls should not be in Afghanistan, nor have been in Iraq.

    I have a few mates who are ex-forces, one was a close quarter combat instructor in Two Para.

    Their views, along with another mate who is a weapons analyst for the MoD, changed my view entirely on our vile little crusade, whcih at the beginning, I am very sorry to say, I wholeheartedly endorsed. (Regime change was a responsibility...)

    And yes, they probably do pop by, but I think the point has been made. They run a pretty shoddy site and they regularly get slapped for it.

    Who cares if they clock people ? Fuck 'em.
    I wouldn't stuff anyone elses' secrecy up, but my view is I don't really care any more.

  28. My own fault for getting in touch with my inner schoolboy. To be honest I only joined this thing to get off with women and so far it's working a treat eh sheff?

  29. stoaty

    I believe I've already called you an incorrigible bastard elsewhere. Still, if you're up for saggy tits and wrinkles I could be your woman.

  30. You're on girl! is it too early in the relationship to ask what you are wearing?

  31. stoaty

    As I wouldn't want you to have a stroke through over excitement - probably better not to tell you

  32. The mind boggles. Dressing gown & slippers, curlers & maybe a fag hanging out of the side of your mouth, a la Mrs Andy Capp?

  33. MsChin: Nice one.

    My girlfriend’s daughter decided the other night she wanted to try curling her normally straight hair (her mum already has curly hair, but always straightens it. Why?).

    Anyway, for the rest of the evening she was the image of Andy Capp’s wife (Flo?) as a twelve year old, except for the fag.

  34. I've blown it haven't I? Was a time It was enough that she turned up but now I seem to need that bit extra.

  35. Stoat must have a direct blood line to one of my all time heroes - Frank Harris!


  36. MsChin

    I could probably arrange the Mrs Andy Capp look but can't say it's my style of choice. Is that what stoaty likes? He's the right generation - as am I - nearly.

  37. Just playing the northern stereotype card, sheffpixie. Wouldn't be my choice of attire either - couldn't be doing with the curlers! I can't speak for mr stoat of course, but methinks he may prefer something a little more sophisticated?

  38. MsChin

    Deano appears to be inferring stoaty is an adventurer of the sexual sort, so you're probably right. Admirable having the energy at his time of life

  39. @ Sheffpixie

    If his line is indeed back to Harris - age, generation, nationality, sartorial taste, muck under fingernails or its absence (as in your manicured case) accent, number of "o" levels, Phd etc etc are all irrelevant.

    It's just a friendly chat to while away the minutes/hours/days/weeks/months lifetimes that he's after on account of the fact that he is hormonally

    Some of us hapless souls have probs with that testro stuff such that it falls from our eyes and could flavour your chips.

    Regards - hope the family crisis sorted. Deano

  40. @ andy twas flo

  41. Andy Capp perpetuates patriarchal stereotypes. And Northern stereotypes. It glorifies misogynism. And pubs. And sports. And alcohol. And unemployed people. Harriet Harman should ban it.

  42. Deano

    Do i sound manicured? I hope not. Or as po faced as your post (seems) to suggest. Do i really come across like that?

  43. @ Sheffpixie

    Of course not our lass - you come across as a delightful human woman. And I hope that I'm not read as a pompous twat.

    I'm just trying to remember the name of one of the early editors of the OUD. He, a nineteenth century nutter, had a 'taste' for being rowed about on the river by eight women of sensible and admirable sensibilities.

    I have you down as a lass to his taste - you can row in my boat any day young miss.


  44. Deano

    Relief! No you don't sound pompous at all but I do wonder sometimes if I do, especially on cif.

    hmm... the Victorians - so repressed they had to be quite imaginative with their pecadillos.

  45. Not OUD !! Ox Eng Dictionary OED I'm not sure if it was James Murray (Ed 1) that I have in mind.

    The story, like the story of Frank Harris, is to my ungrown up mind a funny story which casts a warm shadow on human behaviour.

    My knowledge of these things is not because of my cleverness but because of fondness for a good yarn.

    But I must take care with Cath stalking these pages I could find my nuts roasted.

    Dog walking calls - saved by the bell I hope

  46. the mods have definitely stalked this site in the past and I'm sure they pop in now and again... But Cath is not a graun stalker! And she's more than welcome (as is pretty much anyone) round here as far as I'm concerned...
    And I'd just like to add that middle-aged northern women are well cool... says I..

  47. @ Scherfig

    and dogs (greyhounds at least)!

  48. I stand corrected cool Kiz

  49. Yep, northern women are fab. And I never did wear me stockings Norah Batty style either...

    But isn't there a post-modern challenge to the patriarchy in the Capp saga, what with Andy being a male victim of domestic violence and all?

  50. Correct, deano - whippets! And pigeons, now I come to think of it.

  51. Whippets & pigeons & ferrets ...

  52. Interesting ideological point, mschin. We have the recurring scenario where Andy rolls home late and Flo is waiting for him with the rolling pin. But we never see any actual violence. I think that there is a subversive, disorientating subtext here which only Bidisha could dissect with any real competence. The women (Flo) doing all the work would fit a certain feminist paradigm, and Andy constantly moving out and then arriving back home with his suitcase on his shoulder, only to be accepted again uncritically speaks volumes. Is the whole thing a post-modernist challenge to deeply ingrained views about gender? You've got me wondering now. I'll have to dig out my Kristeva and see where I stand on this (until Cath or Bindel tells me).

  53. scherfiq

    You could try subverting Kristeva's theory of abjection - would be a fit for Andy.

  54. BTW Bidisha's on Radio 4 tonight at 8pm - "exploring the legacy of Iris Murdoch" according to the Graun.

  55. Armed Forces Day: It probably doesn't come as much of a surprise to anyone that I was against the Iraq War from the very beginning. Like Annetan, I feel that it's because I value the lives of our servicemen and women that I opposed it. (In this country, at least, the hippies have a lot to answer for for the way they treated returning soldiers from Viet Nam.)

    Here in the US, Armistice Day was renamed Veterans' Day a long time ago (long enough ago that I've only ever known it as Veterans' Day). It is still observed, but the two things that were the most meaningful to me as a child have sort of faded from use -- we used to stand for a minute of silence at 11:00 am, which was broken only by the sound of "Taps" and nobody wears poppies anymore. I suppose it's because those two things were a direct association with WWI that they've fallen out of use, but I think it's a shame.

    As for people from the Graun reading this site, it has undoubtedly happened and been used against people who post here. Brian Whitaker is a follower, though how often he actually reads any of it is a mystery and I'm not sure I'd pin any blame on him for being a 'mole'. If we were to believe Matt Seaton (though, why would we?), supposedly not even he exercises that kind of control over the mods. Still, enough has happened on Cif that was obviously in response to things said here that it isn't in doubt that someone monitors the place and is touchy about it.

    The thing that makes me sad about that is that, when I started this up, I saw it as almost an unofficial extension of Cif and not as an antagonist/protest. They've only got their own byzantine, inconsistent modding decisions to blame for the fact that it has taken on that role.

  56. Montana
    Harold Macmillan a Tory prime minister was asked what was the most difficult thing to deal with in politics.

    He replied 'Events dear boy, events'

    As in politics so in life I guess.

  57. @ Montana

    Great site lives up to its heading - a place of fun.

    If push ever came to shove I'd rather post here than CiF. You attract some sharp and funny people who together with all who drop in from time to time make this place great.

    No wonder the mods might be concerned. Long may it continue.

    The OED guy I was looking for was Frederick Furnivall - lots who call here will already know the yarn but for those who don't I'll tell it another day.

    Regards Deano

  58. Montana,
    Whitaker did not care for me saying that he was anti English and got me Pre modded. I am not surprised to hear that he creeps through this site. I would not have owned to ursus45 had I known.

  59. deano
    I look forward to the tale, but off to bed right now.

    We live & learn, eh, mr stoat?

  60. sheffpixie & sherfig
    On the Kristeva / Capp discussion - I was distracted elsewhere earlier, not least by experiencing an Apocalypse Now moment as the local police helicopter circled overhead & 8 police vehicles decended on the neighbourhood. Needless to say, I was outside with half the street for a good while, having what us northerners call a neb (nebb?).

    Anyway, Capp-wise, it occurs to me that there's also the issue of the invisible mother-in-law, who is heard but never seen... With so much matriarchal power to disrupt with and for, no wonder Andy's abject!

    Definitely off to bed now.

  61. @ mschin/sheffpixie/sherfig

    Your sparking of each other was priceless. I hope Montana and lots of others have come across the Capp cartoons.

    If not - Capp a kind of South Park strip set in Geordie England circa 1930 and supercharged on Newcastle Brown if you know what I mean?

  62. Anonymous
    Agreed, most excellent.