27 October 2010


Facts are meaningless.  You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
-Homer Simpson


  1. "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

    Sounds like the charming Angie124....

  2. "Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!" The scene was a plain, bare, monotonous vault of a schoolroom, and the speaker's square forefinger emphasized his observations by underscoring every sentence with a line on the schoolmaster's sleeve. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's square wall of a forehead, which had his eyebrows for its base, while his eyes found commodious cellarage in two dark caves, overshadowed by the wall. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's mouth, which was wide, thin, and hard set. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's voice, which was inflexible, dry, and dictatorial. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's hair, which bristled on the skirts of his bald head, a plantation of firs to keep the wind from its shining surface, all covered with knobs, like the crust of a plum pie, as if the head had scarcely ware-house-room for the hard facts stored inside. The speaker's obstinate carriage, square coat, square legs, square shoulders, nay, his very neckcloth, trained to take him by the throat with an unaccommodating grasp, like a stubborn fact, as it was, all helped the emphasis. "In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir; nothing but Facts!" The speaker, and the schoolmaster, and the third grown person present, all backed a little, and swept with their eyes the inclined plane of little vessels then and there arranged in order, ready to have imperial gallons of facts poured into them until they were full to the brim.

    - concerning Thomas Gradgrind in Hard Times, Dickens

    Of course, some people sometimes think that a fact is something which is both uncontrollable and unchangeable.

    This leads to people saying things which imply that things like the tax system have to be the way they are forever.

    They forget that we just made up a set of rules and jotted them down on a piece of paper, then kept adding to them.

    People do like facts, though. They are comforting, like a lovely warm blanket.

    Richard Feynman, the Nobel physicist, tells the story of a professor who had been at the forefront of a particular area of physics for thirty-five years. He was the top dog, the bees knees.

    One day, a young tearaway came to one of his lectures and pulled the theory apart. Broke it into little bits and smashed it.

    After thinking everything through, the professor smiled and laughed and said how wonderful he felt.

    "I have had my theory for thirty-five years," he said. "You have proved me wrong. Now I have the thrill of working through these new ideas. I am so excited!"

    Or something like that. He may have used other words.

    Being wrong didn't scare him.

    He didn't think it would make the world come unstuck, with bits flying into his face and sticking in his eye.

    He wasn't scared of new ideas, even if they were different from his own.

    He knew that all he ever had was a theory, which forever remained open to challenge and disproof.

  3. I love that Feynman story, I wish more scientists were like him!

  4. Dotterel

    Yeah, he was quite a guy.

    Even when dealing with "hard facts", we do not have to be po-faced and proscriptive.

    Life doesn't have to be clinging on with white knuckles and faces set rigid with determination and fear.

    It should be fun, with child-like exploration and wonder and enchantment.

    It should also be about one thousand daily acts of minor sabotage and subversion.

    We never learn by thinking we are right.

  5. Amen to that Atomboy (see we need a recommend button ;-))

  6. Dotterel

    Yes, I am all for buttons. You can never have too many! And knobs which go all the way to eleven.

    As a small note on Feynman, he did also say that many people could not stand the "insecurity" of knowing that everything is only a disproof away from falling over and collapsing around our ears.

    He admitted that people needed the comfort of certainty.

    Kurt Vonnegut said that most people cannot cope with humanism because it offers no system of rewards and punishments structured in an immutable framework of certainty.

    He also said that someone looking for the security of religion welcoming them with open arms might find that being the wrong colour in the wrong town at the wrong time might make them see that most religions were pretty fussy about who they want to allow on board.

    Luckily, he pretty much cleared it all up when he said something like: "We are here on earth to fart around and don't let anyone tell you any different."

  7. Actually I'm undecided on buttons, I was just being contrary for fun ;-)

    And I don't get the need for certainty, I just don't, as I said on a CIF thread on religion the other day: I'm not 100% certain I'm not an earthworm dreaming that I'm a scientist!

  8. Ha ha, I don't think so.....

    I see Bitey's on top form on the mod thread!

  9. If we had buttons, I'd be pushing yours guys! ; )

  10. Morning All

    Good piece, AB, as always.

    I think once you actually realise that they can't control anything at all, the something that was an immutable truth yesterday can suddenly be proved to be a load of old codswallop tomorrow, it is actually quite a liberating experience.

    Took me a lot of hard work though.

    Speaking of hard work, here I am still in my nighty watching old episodes of Casualty cos, having gone through the bundle of papers for the urgent advice/judicial review that I am supposed to be drafting today, the solicitors haven't bothered to actually include the Home Office decision I am supposed to be challenging... and they don't appear to have a copy on their file either so are desparately scrabbling around as we speak trying to get a copy.

    Ho hum. Eejits doesn't even begin to go there really. I wonder how the High Court will look at an application to apply out of time on the basis that my instructing solicitors are daft?

    So here I am skiving. I don't care though - aside from the fact that I won't be able to bill anything - cos it is my wedding anniversary and after 15 years marriage, I deserve a day of doing nowt! :o)

  11. Dot

    Re the manuphage - flabberghasting in his bare-faced cheek doesn't even begin to describe him.

    Poor little victim. Aw.

  12. manuphage he he!

    The more I read the more I think he's got to be a parody and just sit back with the popcorn, but I acknowledge that that might be more difficult for those who've been his victims!

  13. Also, ahem, from the same WADDYA:

    27 October 2010 11:57AM

    Something else.

    I'd like to commission someone who has been "tested" by Atos, told they were fit to work, but won their appeal - to follow on today's story about incapacity benefits claimants.

    You may remember that we have had a piece by someone with ME whose appeal failed. I'd like to have someone who won.

    Please pass this on and/or e-mail me if interested.


    Don't know about anyone else here, but I've always thought WADDYA does a sterling job.

  14. BB

    ...aside from the fact that I won't be able to bill anything - cos it is my wedding anniversary...

    I always bill Atomgirl for our anniversaries. I thought everyone did.

    Except the year when I forgot altogether.

    Obviously, I let her off that year.

  15. From the Vodafone link:

    Finally, in a controversial move this year, Dave Hartnett, the head of the HMRC, took the Vodafone case away from his team of lawyers and gave it to another negotiating team, which said the phone company could get away with paying a lump sum of £800,000 and a further £450,000 over five years.

    The agreement between HMRC and Vodafone came after negotiations-between revenue officers and John Connors, Vodafone's head of tax. Until 2007, Mr Connors was a senior official at HMRC, where he worked closely with Mr Hartnett.

    Hank, would you mind letting us all off our tax liabilities, since you are a taxman and we is yer mates, innit?

  16. Kinell, I'd better skedaddle for a bit, otherwise this site will look like I have murdered everyone else and am pretending to speak in tongues.

    PS Montana

    We seem to be attracting visitors from almost everywhere on earth.

    It might be due to the "V" word at the top.

    Could we use Bracken's latest description instead?

    He said the UT was like, er, something, something and another word which I forget.

    Actually, I've forgotten all of it, except I think he said he was inviting Stalin for dinner.

    Sorry, I'm not sure of any of that really helps.

  17. I dunno Atomboy: I quite like the idea of some poor hapless primate punishers searching the interweb for inspiration for their simian and ending up wading through our highly courteous exchanges of verbal tennis wondering "where're the Vs?!?!?"

  18. To quote LaRit, berry fuddy AB :p

    Dot - I have just caught the manuphage red-handed making up shite about me. And funnily enough I had actually bookmarked that particular thread of Waddya recently because it was the time Jay was banned.

    God I am turning into him, aren't I?!!

    Seriously, though - he is a lying little fucker...

  19. "God I am turning into him, aren't I?!!"

    Not possible BB!

    With a hundred caveats about it being easier said than done:

    If you find playing with him amusing then do, if it frustrates you I suggest you just ignore the little extremity gobbler!

  20. True, Dot

    Kiz has just said the same thing too.

    But, as I said in reply to her, I just can't be doing with liars. Makes me growl....!


  21. Repeat to self:

    "I have better things to do with my life than butt heads with a butthead"!

    Loving the vamped out Willow BTW!

  22. Feeling a bit better today - have had the mother of all colds for the last 3 days and still feeling unreal, but am still going to make the jaunt to the Crown tomorrow.

    Shall I clutch a copy of the Groin? Wear a carnation, have an UT sticker on me forhead? How will I recognise you peeps???

  23. Hi All

    have you read Julie Burchill in The Indie - on L Boothe converting to Islam.

    Burchill has abandoned her attempt to convert to Judaism but thinks that Israelis are happy cos they can smoke and take dogs into pubs.

  24. LaRit

    Hope you feel better soon. I am still coughing up my lungs but have every intention of plaguing people with my germs tomorrow night too. I am probably coming in after work so I will be the tall, biggish one with the shortish auburn hair in a navy trouser suit with a pint of ale in front of me... :o)

  25. Dot

    Willow was always my fave character on Buffy, in all her iterations. I thought Evil Willow rocked, too! :o)

  26. La Rit: black & white striped jumper. I think. But definitely a pint of London Pride.

  27. I'd forgotten you were all meeting tomorrow. I'm feeling all left out.

    Have a great time and report back.

    Watch out for that LaRit though - she can be very feisty and troublesome.

  28. Just in case you guys missed Phillipa's on Monday:

    Anyway - am mid pack and this will probably be it for a while - will be able to pop in to check for any issues re Thursday - see you then! (will instal self in corner with the G crossword - CIF pic probably not too much help, so, tallish, brown hair, glasses, will probably be wearing a red jumper...)

    Looking forward to it!
    Have a good week, all...
    25 October, 2010 09:24

  29. Leni

    I'm not going either, have fun all!

  30. @Leni and Dott

    I'll be missing too, although I am going to Ireland for the first time on Friday morning...

    Have a great time, everyone who can make it.

  31. This comment has been removed by the author.

  32. Peter

    Pleasure or business ?

    Many years since I have been to Ireland. You have a great time too.

  33. Spoon-man's havin fun on the mods thread ;-)

  34. @Leni

    A bit of both - a friend is going to speak at a conference, and asked me to go along to keep her company since I helped with the speech and presentation. So we've added a few days on to tour around Galway.

    Will have to look up some maps, as I have no idea what to expect.

  35. Peter J - Take care !! Take a lot of care..

    Those Devilish 'Soda Farls' can attack at any time !! Although, to be fair, you will be in the wild 'West'. I don't think they are too prolific down there !

    If you find one dripping with butter - don't try to resist... 'resistance is futile'

  36. Good luck and best wishes to all the funsters with their travelling and socialising.

    Remember: No pics and it never happened.

    Alternatively, just email a complete stranger with your itinerary and this is legally acceptable.

    Otherwise, publish a newsletter - which also constitutes acceptable proof. Just print a dozen, post one to an address found in the telephone book and stuff the rest in the bin.

  37. Afternoon all

    Great picture at the top of the thread Montana.Haven't seen you around for a while so hope all's well with you.

    Some extremely depressing posts on the CIF thread following on from the discovery of Romanian child labourers working in the fields of Worcestershire.Really don't have the time or patience right now to face them down.

    More good posts from you Atomboy.You've been on fire recently mate.BTL on CIF really does need the likes of you,MF,Hank and BW posting 'officially' again just to give the place more political balance-plus a well deserved kick up the arse.I know you said before you wouldn't be interested in an amnesty but i hope you'd reconsider should one take place.

    Right back to work!

  38. afternoon all

    Is it just me or are the upper classes waging an advertising campaign these days. What with stalking articles x 2 on cif, a prog on R4 about Highclere Castle and their shoots, as I arrived home from work and Downton Abbey on the box - the toffs seem to be everywhere these days.

    Staying well away from the migrant worker thread Paul - the comments I saw were horrible and don't have the energy for ploughing a lonely and unpopular furrow this evening.

  39. Paul - Thank you, although I'm not too sure about the amnesty in the light of this.

    For some reason, Natalie Hanman seems to have sent this to my inbox by mistake.

    It would appear to be a draft for her response to the moderation thread.

    Firstly, many thanks to everyone for sharing with us - and each other, of course! - anecdotes and fond memories of how wonderful and brilliant you think CiF moderation is and how you can scarcely imagine it can be improved any more.

    Obviously, we have never pretended that we are doing absolutely everything right (Ha! Ha! but it is pretty close almost always, isn't it?) and we do make a point of listening to our users [Is that what we call them? Change it if needed. They're not servants, are they?] After all, you are the ones who make CiF what it is, which is the best site on the internet [You could change that to teh interwebz for more street cred maybe?] - scientifically proven as fact now because we won an award. Yay! [Is Yay! OK?]

    We have picked just one comment which we think represents what everyone has said - or clumsily tried to say without being able to properly express what you really mean - but without all the wittering and grizzling and muttering, which is, quite frankly, better simply ignored.

    Here it is and very wonderful, too:

    The Guardian is one of the more liberal newspapers re moderation and as this is a national newspaper, there's no reason at all to let every loony with a mission to hate spout out his/her venom. In years gone by they would have constituted the "green ink brigade" and their offerings tossed into the waste paper bin.

    If an argument degenerates into foul language and personal attacks, that argument is going nowhere and should be deleted.

    There's also no reason why comments should be treated more lightly than published letters.

    Also, allowing unbridled comments would certainly put off posters with more knowledge and a great deal more intelligence.

    People should also be careful what they wish - a total lack of moderation could rebound badly on themselves.

    [Did that HerniaGringold say anything we could use? Bung it in here if so]

    So, as you can see, there are clever people who know the value of true opinions and there are nasty little shits who just try to create trouble.

    The clever people have every right to decide whose comments should be allowed to stand and whose should be deleted.

    People have said that the Report Abuse button is utterly brilliant but sometimes gets, er, abused by the bastards.

    So, we will be bringing in a new system whereby only certain, trusted and knowledgeable people will be given access to this button.

    They will be getting invitations soon - squeal, giggle and wave \8/ [someone make that into one of those smiley characters, OK?]

    So, the rest of you had better mind your Ps and Qs because you are being watched. [Have we settled whether to give these shitbags access to the ban button yet? Bung it in here if so. Or was it just pre-mod? I was a bit pissed. Sorry]

    We will ask you again about moderation and banning and pre-moderation in a few weeks or months because this is your site and we want you to enjoy it and make it even more betterer than it is.

    Next time, though, we think you will know the answer without even being asked, won't you?

    [They are a bunch of fuckers, aren't they? Put in a quick bit of dope here about how much we love them all - like Eeeuuughgh! Ha!]

    How could it be anything other than perfect, when you are all such clever little people?

    Now, hands up anyone who wants to write an article and get one of the new blue stickers with a gold star?

    Yes, that's Myrtle, isn't it? What? Yeah, OK, Marvin - whatever. The one who's been sniffing the tin of Cherry Blossom and got it all over his nose.

    [That should do it. Tidy it up and bung it out. I'm off and my fucking drug-dealer is late again. Thanks, Sweetie! Mwah!]

  40. Atomboy - I'll fish it out when I get home - top of page nsfw!

  41. Thanks thauma - no panic.

    Does anyone else keep getting "Requested URL too large" when posting and post not showing at first, but refreshing the page brings the comment back?

    Those Google chaps, eh?

    Crazy name, crazy guys.

  42. 16:44 post restored ... heh heh!

  43. 'Front page of the Wail '

    75% of incapacity claimants are fit to work: Tough new benefits test weeds out the workshy

    Excuse me while I go and be sick somewhere

  44. ...and this as well from the same organ...

    Lord Mandelson praises coalition on welfare, schools and Big Society... and issues stern warning to Ed Miliband ...that would be so called Red Ed I gather?

    Give me strength...

  45. MsC/Princess

    Look North have just run a piece on ATOS and the dreaded application process. They seem to want to run with it and are asking people who have gone through the experience of applying to get in touch with them and give them their views on it's fairness.

    So if you know anyone the contact details are:

    email: look.north@bbc.co.uk
    phone: 0113 224 7041
    text: 81333, starting your text with the word 'Yorkshire'

  46. IanG

    Perhaps people will soon start extending the Vodafone tax-fiddling demonstrations and demonstrating against the Dave/Murdoch/Dacre propaganda machine.

    Peter Mandelson did make overtures to the Neo Nasties before the election, saying that he would find no moral or ideological problems in taking up a job with them.

    It's pretty much joining forces with whoever holds power and the public purse-strings, innit?

    PS The quote in the Natalie Hanman draft is really taken from the moderation thread.

    The usual reward of a chaste kiss on the cheek for the girls and a firm handshake for the men awaits anyone who can guess who might have said something like that.

    PPS Nice one, Sheff.

    We might be lucky. People like Dave and, er, Dave and, er, the other Dave probably couldn't switch on a computer without blowing off a leg.

    They probably think the other 61 million people in the country who they do not see at their house-parties can only talk to each other when they are out pheasant-beating or polishing the guests' shoes.

    Perhaps the internet has a use after all.

  47. Shaz & BB:

    Really looking forward to meeting up! As Leni says, I can be a bit fiesty and troublesome, but in a good way! I have short dark hair (with lots of grey in it) lots of mascara and will probably be wearing a mid-length blue coat and carrying a glass o red whine or Guiness - I'll find you ;-)

  48. Famous blue raincoat, eh, LaRit? ;-)

  49. Just a quick note - my Mum has just told me that if the Thieves in Charge go ahead with their £140 flat rate for pensions, she'll be £150 per month worse off. She can't pay her heating bills in the winter as it is, even with the winter fuel allowance, can't sell her house and is driving a car that will shortly fail it's MOT. She will then be trapped.

  50. Where's this pub again? Just in case, like....

  51. Not quite a raincoat - it's me £4.99 vintage Valentino bargain!!!!

  52. *Sulk* I wish I could be at the meet up tomorrow and I don't think I will be able to make BWs gig either, I tend to overestimate the amount of cash I will be able to spare sometimes.

    I've more or less given up reading the political stuff on Cif, not only are the comments vile but they are repetetive beyond belief, I am sure a lot of people are just cutting and pasting from the last article.

    Maybe a few days break will make a difference.

  53. Ah c'mon, Jen, if you can find your way here you don't need to worry. As long as you're not into very expensive champers or anything. ;-)

  54. From the desk of Alan Rusbridger:


    TO: that bolshie feminist bint who runs the webby Jif thing (Dieter Hamann or Natasha kinsky or summick - double-check with HR, please. [btw, where's that cyclist bloke gone? Please tell me we sacked the little shit!]


    Super job! Sounds wonderful. A few minor points:

    1.Have you run any sort of cost benefit analysis on these measures? If you get a minute please give us a ballpark figure. [Does that dozy mare have no fucking idea how much that pile of crap is losing us per day?]

    2. Have you considered dispensing with moderation entirely? Perhaps we could just pretend to our unique users/customer base [fucking oiks] that very, very ultra-strict rules were in place, and then just sack just all those lazy fat doughnut guzzling nerds in the basement. Most of the punters seem amenable and dim enough - do you think they would they believe it? [They're all fucking freeloaders anyway - I should've taken that Times job when I had the chance]
    2(a) Make an exception for Bella and also Tristan's lad and that honorable lady wotserface with the huge talents who got kicked out of Balliol.
    2(b) If you want to keep the work-experience kids, OK, but no travel or lunch allowances. I'm afraid that's got to go. Desperate times and all that.

    3. Sorry, not quite clear on this 'button' thing, I'm afraid. I assume it's something techy? If it's more dodgy IT stuff like that last pile of crap we got from Jeremy's brother-in-law and which ended up costing us millions cuz it never fuckin' worked, then I'm afraid the answer must be an uniequival NO. Lose the button.

    4. More articles from our readers sounds tremendous - didn't we have some plan about that a while back - mutualatation or something? Press on with that. [NB. Check with Legal whether we can sack all the journos and get a load of stuff for free. It's all unmitigated shit anyway.]

    So just a few humble ideas here from my good self, dearest We'll continue to move onwards and upwards together, eh? ha ha. Keep up the good work.


    [Christ, this is never gonna work - it's a fucking disaster. I'm outta here.]

  55. Thanks Shaz!

    * sucks teeth *

    About 2 hours each way. Hmmmm.

    About this congestion charge thingy: if you arrive at the zone after 6 pm, do you not have to pay it?

    Is there parking nearby?

  56. Just seen this from someone called DmIstheSaddestKey on the Cameron thread....

    Apologies again for the long post - I am a Welfare Rights Officer of 17 years standing by the way so this is home territory for me.

    The level of vitriol on here is quite breathtaking. Do the Tory trolls and misanthropes seriously think all benefit claimants are quaffing champagne in Belgravia maisonettes whilst you work out your daily grind?

    The problem is not Housing Benefit - the problem is lack of affordable housing. The case of the window cleaner who is cleaning windows, mentioned earlier in the postings is a good one. Let's assume he is working at national minimum wage of £5.93 an hour for 40 hours a week. Let's also assume he has a partner who works 20 hours a week, also at NMW, and that they have two children under 16. There aren;t any disabilities or any unusual circumstances. Let's assume that they live in a really basic 2up2down in South London, where they have lived all their lives, went to school, where all their friends are. Let's then assume they got their house for £1700 a month rent, which (not living in London any more) is probably pretty reasonable.

    Reasonable assumptions? Good, hard-working family? Okay, let's go on...

    Under current rules let's assume the Local Housing Allowance is £1600 per month (this is the 50th percentile between lowest and highest rents in the area, excluding social housing and the plainly anomalous). Their net weekly income is around £290 per week. So they will be able to claim child benefit on top of that and tax credits - this amounts to roughly £100 per week.

    Bear with me...

    HB then calculates that the minimum they need to live on is £217.89 per week. Their income is taken into account and a whopping £10 per week is disregarded (as an incentive to work, you understand). Their weekly allowable rent is £369.23. Their income ignores child benefit and their earnings disregard but does include tax credits so is £390. This is £172.11 over the minimum amount. That is multiplied by 65% (because that's what the HB regs say) and you get £111.87. This is taken off their allowable rent of £369.23 meaning they will get £257.36 a week in housing benefit - or £13,382.72 per annum if you prefer.

    Your hard-working family then is also a benefit claimant, getting child benefit of £1,721 per year, tax credits of £5,200 a year and HB of £13,382.72 per year - a total of £20,303 per year.

    So - some questions for all you people itching to see the end of the welfare state because work must pay (ha!)...

    -Is this an example of the hard-working family you had in mind?
    -Should they be forced to uproot (and give up their jobs to do so) to move somewhere less expensive, leaving behind all their friends, social networks etc?
    -Should Thatcher perhaps not have sold all the damned council houses?
    -Do you think this family is reaping the rewards of living in a high price area?

    Not so easy is it?

    And let's not forget that, as Monk07 above pointed out, that their housing benefit will reduce by around £80 per week from April. That's the effect of these cuts.

    And if that's "fair" and "making work pay" and all the other pointless platitudes spewing from Cameron and Osborne's mouth then I am indeed the King of Siam.

    Hope some facts help the debate - they counter bile quite nicely I think. And as I said, the problem is lack of affordable housing.

  57. Thauma:

    Would be great if you can make it! Congestion charge ends at 7 pm.

    Jen - come along - I'll buy you a couple o beers!

  58. Thaumaturge - the TFL website tells me that there is no congestion charge between 18:00 - 07:00 -
    this website seems to suggest there are 2 car parks near Farringdon tube, which Philippa says is dead close to the pub.

  59. Atomboy

    Lol!Just read your 16.44pm post. Nice one!

  60. LaRit - great post from Dminor. Let's hope it changes some thinking?

  61. If I can get out of work early, someone known to these pages has kindly offered to do the driving!

    That is a superb post by DmIsTheSaddestKey - good username too.

  62. thaumaturge - it would be good if you could. Fingers crossed.

  63. Shaz:

    It's funny on those threads, bile and vitriol is the order of the day first off, which makes me suspect that some of the worst offenders are gangs of Tory party HQ 'volunteers'..... then as they progress, the comments tend to get better - Dminor's stood out!

    Think Thauma will be able to park - on Clerkenwell Green possibly?

  64. Hello all.


    Cheers for the info - will let folk know.


    My dad-in-law said much the same thing re: the pension scam by the govt - he will lose out.

  65. Atomboy/Scherfig,

    how on earth did the two of you hack into the Guardian email server?

    Uncannily accurate posts.

  66. I recently read another good post by Dminor on the HB changes, it was pretty much ignored, in fact as far as I can remember the very next post was a £400 a week that is £20,000 a year, kill the scroungers one.

    It is so fucking annoying, I was going to say depressing but it isn't, it's maddening how people can just keep repeating the same thing over and over, each one of them thinking that they have the killer argument.

    And don't get me started on that JSMilitant arse, worse than MAM by far, at least MAM seems fairly dispassionate most of the time, he is revelling in it.

    I thought he might be a paid stooge at first but even the tories must have some standards.

  67. Aha! D minor is the saddest key. So true. *sniff*

    Found some parking not too far away. 8 squid for 2 hours!!! You farking Londoners are insane! It'll all depend on how much shite work is tomorrow. I believe LaRit and BB are coming up to BW's gig in November, but it would be brilliant to see Shaz and Philippa and anyone else who turns up.

  68. When is the gig again Thauma?

    Expensive champagne? Me?

    Only when the meths runs out.;)

  69. The gig is Sunday the 7th of November, but we have been considering getting together for a piss-up starting on Saturday the 6th.

    However, I find there is a huge problem with that unless I locate a pub that's showing the rugby internationals!

    I've booked the Monday off, so no rush there.

  70. Oh, and you'll have to bring your own Meths.

  71. @Duke, thanks for that link, I will bookmark that site. It is 'interesting' the observation that much of the right wing press are literally singing from the same hymn sheet. I hope that AB is correct in that this bunch of scumbags are so out of touch (and the last lot were not much better), that they have misjudged the situation and think their mates in the media can fool all of the people all of the time.

    Well, so far that has worked but this internet thingy might be the end of them.

  72. All -

    Are these kind of comments indicative of the general consensus in this country? It seems all very dodgy to me....

    check this out!

    Someone delightfully called SecretSkiver

    The reason why there has been a big decline in building of social housing under the last few governments is that the poor simply turn them into slums - governments simply haven't been able to subsidise that destruction of value any longer. The bureaucrat makes a poor landlord.

    But if you want to throw more money into the slums, use your own; don't come to the taxpayer - we're busy coping with the expense of all the other waste Labour has indulged in

  73. I think we've already been invaded by the TeaParty bodysnatchers....


    YES - I am coming up for BW's gig on ye 6th ;)

  74. Ian

    I don't know, from what I read in the news, and some of the things I hear people talking about when I am around and about, I am starting to wonder if it is those of us who are angry and frightened about the cuts who are out of step.

    I have heard some shocking idiocy recently and a lot of resignation.

    I have a friend, she has always been a reactionary git, who while working cash in hand and having her partner living with her but saying she lives alone (she also didn't name him on her daughters birth certificate so money she got from him wouldn't affect her benefit) claim that the cuts are good because scrounging immigrants would get what is coming to them.

    I know another woman who works and gets cash from her daughters dad without declaring it, she hates scroungers too.

    And far too many of the people I know who are on benefits (legally) basically think politics is boring and/or nothing to do with them.

    I honestly think it will take something massive, something that directly affects them for most people to wake the feck up.

  75. Hi @Jenn, Thanks for those notes. I know what you mean. Those folk don't realise they are the same as those they decry. I'm sure there's a good quote somewhere from the past (like Shakespeare) who nailed it.

    The news ha picked up on the housing benefit issue and actually spoken to people who will be effected. But they still quote DWP figures as gospel without analysing or question.

    Well, off to bed now went to London today and it is chaos there with the traffic and slow trains.

    Bi bi

  76. "I honestly think it will take something massive, something that directly affects them for most people to wake the feck up."

    Well, quite, how much more massive does it get when the government of your country sells out to the minority elites of corporate and banking scams and holds you to ransom to nationalise their debts and privatise their profits?

    Solution: blame it on the benefit scroungers!

    The real benefit scroungers are the likes of Vodaphone who took us all to the cleaners to the tune of 6 billion quid...the same sum that would have made the attack on the welfare benefit unecessary.

    Unfortunately, as always, the propaganda machine led by the Daily Wail and the rest of the "red tops" is winning.

  77. Evening all

    OK, if someone needs to, there is this bunkbed thingy in our little spare room which is adequately comfortable if not luxurious, and we are near Gatwick so not exactly central London, like, but it has a really good mattress and you are more than welcome to kip here if you want to come down.

  78. Also, am deffo coming up for the 7th - maybe on the 6th too, and Mr BB might possibly be up for it as well depending on work stuffs. (He is a CiF drive-by from time to time)

  79. this looks fun


  80. BB

    OK, thanks.

    I'll be round in about three-quarters of an hour if that's OK with you.

    I was just going to go to bed at home because that's just a few yards away and I could walk there in about twenty seconds.

    Still, I'll get dressed again and get the car fired up.

    Why is it I need to sleep in your bunk-bed, though?

    I don't mean to be rude, but, you know, I'm a bit puzzled.

    Anyway, on my way now.

  81. BTW; part of, if not the crux of the problem is that people of my generation were brought up to believe in the integrity of the banking system.

    Some of us have discovered that it is a total sham and nothing more than a cover to commit what is, in effect, grand larceny.

    The other part of the problem is that whilst all the information to prove this fraud is out there on the internet, most people are too busy "net-working" with their mates on Facebook or trawling the web for pornography and completely oblivious to the way politicians are taking them for a ride.

  82. AB

    Have you joined the Muppet Orchestra as well?!

    Was reading back and thinking that if Thaum or Jen needed a bed for the night tomorrow... oh never mind.

    I've put the kettle on for you anyway. Or would you rather have hot chocolate?

  83. BB

    see you tomorrow - that's if you can manage to boot Atomboy out .......


  84. sorry folks, coughing, spluttering and pointlessly trying to combat the bollox, botoxed brain-dead Torie trolls on CiF.


  85. LOL LaRit

    I will drag him along with me!

    We shall cough in chorus you and I tomorrow

    Hugs xx

  86. re Checkov @ 23.03

    The scales were lifted from my eyes when an economics lecturer said, "When you go for an overdraft the bank manager does'nt look in the drawer and say, well I've £40k here,I'll let this poor bastard have £200.' No he invents money. When he says, 'So you kept within the£50 OD, let's see how you do with £300.' You go out and spend that £300, where did it come from?n Your BM invented it.

    next day I went out and got a £250 OD.

    Good luck partying UTrs, am jealous.

    nn p (^_^)

  87. Sorry I was called away to talk to my sister who is living the housing benefit boogie.

    They have 3 kids and both work, they are going to be fucked if the housing benefit level changes.

    No problem, they can live up here between me and my other sister.

    They won't starve (I might murder them) but they can survive up here.

    Surviving is not the same as living.

  88. "Surviving is not the same as living. "

    Ain't dat da troof. :(

    I know some people think of me a "barrister - hah! She's rolling in it", and these days we are relatively comfortable compared to a lot of people. But it wasn't always the case. And I can remember times when I woke up in the morning and wondered whether I was going to buy food or fags cos I couldn't afford both.

    Don't give up, cos you have friends...

  89. Too right Jen. I lost the will to cif with charleysays accusing me of 'looking forward to a winter on handouts' I could have killed the fucker.

    Still it was more gratifying to curse the prick to a life of Mamon worship and to never know the love of a human being...

    AB & Sherf.. 15 out of 10.

    Am away noo,,,

  90. BB thank you for that.

    A lot of people say, how can you smoke, as a parent.

    I am willing to bet they have never been in that position.

    Sometimes a fag is all that gets you through.

  91. Wow that was off topic.

    Sorry, I was talking to my sis.

  92. one word to Hank if you're around... cheers for the heads up re Nadine Dorries and her liccle moniker on CiF.

    ZacSmith (Goldsmith) appears to be trading as zsmith..... his confident, falming green 'Z' avatar may have seemed abit to Flash Gordon .....but I could be wrong

  93. christ my spelling and grammar is fucked ....

    a bit too Flash...

    not abit to Flash ;( grrr

  94. Family is actually a wonderful thing - especially when you don't see it too often. Have just spent a brilliant evening with sister, three nieces, one nephew-in-law and a great-niece aged under two and obsessed with the Gruffalo and In the Night Garden who says "bugger" a lot, only no-one can work out what she's actually trying to say when she says it. Otherwise, she's quite coherent and can count, except that's she's over-fond of six and inserts it regularly in some extremely non-Euclidean places.
    End of evening spent chatting over remains of fourth bottle of wine to youngest niece, dyslexic and with a shiny new first in English, who's now going for a PhD.
    Life is really brilliant sometimes.


    Get there. I'll be delighted to ply you with beverages.


    I'll call you tomorrow and see if we're on the same train.

    * * *

    I'll be wearing a red enamel PCF badge so you can recognise me. I think I will very probably be the only one.

    I'm also beginning to worry that I'll be the only male there. If Julie Bindel is brandishing a torch at the foot of a wicker man in front of The Crown, I shall slink off immediately...