26 August 2009

Daily Chat 26/08/09

Michaelangelo was commissioned to sculpt the Pietà in 1498. The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen was approved by the National Assembly at Versailles in 1789. Krakatoa entered the paroxysmal stage of its eruption in 1883.

Not one single living 'celeb' birthday was the slightest bit interesting today, so here are some of the dead people who used to celebrate the day: Robert Walpole (b. 1676), Prince Albert (b. 1819), Guillaume Apollinaire (b. 1880) and Christopher Isherwood (b. 1904). It is Heroes Day in Namibia.


  1. Not one single living 'celeb' birthday was the slightest bit interesting today ...

    In which case, may I claim today as "Montana Wildhack Day" and say thank you to her for her hard work on The Untrusted and on The Place That Shall Not Be Named Here.

  2. LordS: Seconded, though someone might have a word with her about today’s lay-out.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one who took a while to decipher what she was saying about

    Deano: Christ, you do have a good memory, don’t you?

    I do prefer it when people give their “name” when posting here. I think it’s only polite, though in the light of recent Cif events I’m reluctant to use the word etiquette.

    Sorry to hear about your continued tech issues. I have saved my signed-in status on my computer, so when I fire up the internet I don’t have to type in andrewthingy@whatsit.co.uk, I can just get straight on with honing my beautifully crafted comments. Maybe doing something similar might help you out, at least some of the time.

    But if you can’t get your sign-in to work, then a little *d* always lets us know it’s you, if the refs to tramps, dogs and Freddie Furnival haven’t already alerted us.

    And regarding chainsaws etc, thanks for your concern. I don’t intend to be doing it all day every day, but it’s a useful string to have on my bow.

    Funnily enough, the guy who originally taught me to use one had the surname Deane, and when I first saw you posting here and on Cif, I wondered if you were him, but my man is most definitely a Londoner, not a Yorkie...

    Here’s one for all you Namibians

    David Bowie - Heroes

  3. Yes many thanks to Montana and let's have some Eliot -

    'In the room the women come and go
    Talking of Michelangelo.'

  4. LordS - thanks for the laugh of the day on the Microsoft thread!

    Andy - [pedantry]It's "Heroes" (with the inverted commas[/pedantry].

  5. @andy:

    Way back when eee I were a lad, I used to do summer/winter work for the Forestry Commission in N Yorks (my dad knew a bloke etc), those stints engendered in me a lifelong love of chainsaws. I have absolutely no reason to own one, frankly, but! I have a Czech-made petrol engine beauty in the garage which I brought back from foreign fields in the mid-90s. It's at least 4 feet long, very very menacing-looking piece of kit.

  6. Andy

  7. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 09:57

    Yeah, let's celebrate the "Montana Wildhack Day". Thank you for running the coolest place on the internet!

  8. Yay, happy Montana Day everyone!

  9. thauma: hoist by my own pedantard :-(

    You are absolutely right, it is “Heroes” (though I never quite understood why). I knew that, even as I copied in the link title, so no excuses. You got me banged to rights and I guess I should come quietly...


    “It’s at least four foot long”

    Never thought you would be a size queen. I find a 15” guide bar quite enough for most of my requirements, but if I ever feel the need for something a bit bigger, I’ll know who to ask for help.

    Hope the FC experience engendered a lifelong love of safety procedures and wearing the correct PPE too.

    BW: are you just trying try rub in thauma’s point with your bloody quotation marks?

    I know I’ve done wrong; but I don’t deserve to be persecuted, surely?

    Judging by the weather forecast, this might be a more appropriate tune for today:

    Rainy Day Women #12 & 35

    And just in case thauma’s still feeling picky, that’s the title of the song as it appears on the YouTube page. My copy of Blonde on Blonde, which I have dutifully consulted, suggests it should be Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35.

    *They’ll stone you when you’re trying to be so good...*

  10. @andy:

    Re. PPE - I had pair of chainmail gloves. There weren't enough chainmail trousers to go round. Oh, I had a pair of goggles as well. Can't remember much in the way of H&S briefing either, but this was in the mid-80s so possibly H&S didn't exist back then.

  11. Andy - as I recall, the Great One said that he used the quotation marks to indicate some measure of irony about the concept of heroism.

    Everybody must get stoned - too bad I'm at w*rk. :-(

  12. Swifty; your attitude to Health and Safety is so bloody eighties.

    Maybe you should check this out

    Otherwise, probably best to leave the menacing looking piece of kit in the garage...

    thauma: yeah, something like that.

    And my quotation from RDW was supposed to be an ironic comment on your reaction to me when I made my little mistake (a joke never really works when you have to explain it, does it?)

  13. @andy:

    Yep, I think I just picked up the chainsaw, was shown where the chord was, and let 'er rip. They were a tough bunch of blokes, though - drunkenness and fighting were not uncommon, particularly on a Saturday. The foreman was Irish, very very hard bastard, looked like he lived in a field (smelt like it, too). He knocked a sheep out with a single blow to the head once, the result of a drunken wager ("bet you can't knock a sheep out with a punch", "bet Oi fockin can" etc).

  14. I could use a chain saw. Many years ago I planted a pine tree, from seed, and it is now feeling up a street lamp.
    Was up it yesterday with one of those silly little folding pruning saws.

  15. Andy, I always thought it was "Heroes" because there's a large measure of irony concerning the heroic status of the song's subjects.

    I see Thauma agrees - always nice to know that if I'm totally barking then I'm in company ;-)

  16. @colin:

    No handy Gypsies in your vicinity? They'd do it for you for 25 quid, just make sure they take it away and don't leave it propped up against somebody's house, as happened to a neighbour of mine where we used to live. He woke up one morning to find two large trees up against his wall, their quondam "owner" turned up later looking a tad shamefaced. "Thought twenty five quid was too good to be true".

  17. Swifty: bet they wouldn’t look so tough with only one arm...

    Although much H&S legislation can be derided as being over the top, and the box-ticking attitude to it is clearly bollocks, it does give us the protection from uncaring employers who want to get us to do things which are obviously and inherently dangerous without taking reasonable precautions.

    I remember when I worked as a cabinet maker (another industry where there is huge potential for disabling accidents) chatting to someone who, when he went for a job, was told:

    “You can’t have been doing this for very long, you haven’t got any scars.”

    His reaction was something along the lines of:

    “If you’re a decent cabinet maker, you shouldn’t get any fucking scars...”

    Careful with that Chainsaw, Swifty

    Colin: I’ll let you know the next time I’m down your way.

    Maybe I could pick up Swifty’s monster on the way. We might have to charge you a little more than 25 quid though...

  18. @andy:

    My late mother's best friend's boy used to be a cabinet maker, worked for Thompsons of Kilburn a.k.a. "The Mouseman". My dad's got quite a few of his smaller pieces round the house. Solid, heavy oak stuff, not my kind of thing to be honest, though I do have an octagonal small table at our house which is lighter coloured than most and doesn't look too bad.

  19. quote from andy:

    “You can’t have been doing this for very long, you haven’t got any scars.”
    His reaction was something along the lines of:
    “If you’re a decent cabinet maker, you shouldn’t get any fucking scars...”

    Agree absolutely (see also the peasant's remark about the scar-faced warrior in Seven Samurai - no, let's find the one who gave him the scar!).

    I doubled as the NUJ Health & safety rep when I worked in publishing, and goodness it can be astonishingly hard to persuade people to take care of their health even in desk jobs!

  20. Quondam -that's a great one Swifty. I've been finding it tedious referring to our lass as my sometime wife. I think I'll call her my quondam wife in future.

    I'll also add the word to my new philavery and more importantly I can threaten that bastard Mungo dog with it. After Mungo and the last of the poppies (a yarn I have yet to share with you) I have been thinking how to make him feel insecure about his status.

    Quite a cool place here Montana something new and novel almost everyday thus I'm happy to join the Montana Wildhack day fans in their loud chorus of appreciation.

  21. Quondam?

    Sounds like a show by Cirque du Soleil.

    You learn new words every day here ... and I mean that in a good way.

  22. @andy:

    We might have to charge you a little more than 25 quid though...

    Nah, sod that, I'd do it for nothing just to see that bad boy fired up again. I love the smell of a two-stroke engine first thing in the morning.

    Re. H&S: it was no doubt originally designed with the laudable intention of protecting at-risk employees from unscrupulous bosses, but these days I reckon it's mutated into a gigantic form of corporate arse-covering - "we told you not to slouch at your computer like that, we've done our bit, so don't come suing us for your bad back..."

  23. I seem to recall that the most dangerous occupation in the UK used to be deep sea fishing. If you did it for more than twenty years and still had all your digits you were considered up for sainthood. If you still had both hands after thirty years you would have been put forward for Pope.

    Lots of the old timers around Hull/Grimsby couldn't swim and used to say that it was no problem because nine times out ten if you were washed overboard the next wave used to wash you back on board.

    On the tenth - being able to swim weren't going to help and it only could make it worse!

  24. I'm sure that H&S was initiated with the very best of intentions, but last week I was bawled out for changing the water bottle on our cooler as I have not had up to date manual handling training......I work in an office for fucks sake!

    The other problem with H&S is that all too often its completely ignored in cowboy operations in the industrys which most need it, I'm thinking of the building trade in particular, although no doubt there are many more examples.

  25. @Vari:

    Yep, that's what I was groping for in my broadside - white-collar H&S. Pointless fucking box-ticking and arse-covering.

    My, I'm trenchant this morning.

  26. Its the people that volunteer to be departmental H&S reps that get right on my tits, at our place they get a luminous tabard with H&S on the back for some bizarre reason, presumably so they can be let through in an emergency situation when someone has their legs crossed at their desk and people are crowding around gasping in horror.

    They're the same kind of mealy mouthed, interfering idiots with no life of their own who probably would volunteer for the special constabulary.

  27. @Vari:

    You mean like Keith Lard off That Peter Kay Thing?


    "The real thing that keeps me awake at night is ignorance".


  28. Health and Safety 'Heroes':-


    Swifty - Lil could have almost certainly have felled a sheep with one blow.

  29. I shall watch that later when at home and equipped with superior (basic) technology. We don't get speakers here, although in their wisdom we've all been fitted with soundcards. Go figure.

    Is it me or was it another really bad idea on the part of CiF to publish an article about Lockerbie written by a scottish comedian? I'm not the most sensitve soul, and am half scottish myself, but there are some places you just don't go.....

  30. @Vari:

    Definitely worth watching all the clips (Part1, 2 and 3) on YouTube featuring Keith Lard, Fire & Safety Officer - there's a big question mark over his proclivities given his apparently rather strict adherence to the old "a dog is a man's best friend" adage...

    Who was the comedian, Frankie Boyle? That would make interesting reading.

  31. Sorry, a comedienne....Susan Calum or something. I am, of course, using the word comedienne in the croadest possible sense of the word.

    Love Frankie Boyle, I went to see him a while ago under duress and I was in actual physical pain from laughing.

  32. and that should read broadest....

  33. @Vari:

    "and that should read broadest...."

    Aw, that's a shame, I thought it was your Jock ancestry showing and you'd slipped a dialect word in.

    Croad - adj., denoting something unworthy of praise, lacking merit etc. E.g. "these breeks are fockin croad, by the way Jimmy".

  34. Vari

    "They're the same kind of mealy mouthed, interfering idiots with no life of their own who probably would volunteer for the special constabulary."

    I understand the frustration with PC but in my generation it was all too often the shop stewards and union nominated H&S reps who were sacked in the first wave when there were redundancies. I never thought of them as tossers.

    To get youngsters to understand that things like paid holidays and a five day working week didn't come down the mountain with Moses but had to be fought for by unions was never easy. The ignorance of the young makes it so easy for employers to keep them subdued.

    There are still those who think that women don't work down pits because employers are decent sorts. I'm not one of them.

    When H&S first came to white collar workers some H&S reps were astonished to find that people were routinely handling carcinogenic chemicals without a care in things like photocopiers.

    Back injuries caused by ambitious lifting are still one of the biggest drains on the NHS.

    We ignore the past at our peril.

  35. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vor03-uUeuM

    Very, very upsetting.

  36. @Jay:

    It's hideous. Not just the grin but the bouncy animated way he's making his point.

    For a man prone to missteps at every turn, this was one of his larger pratfalls.

  37. Perhaps I did mean that.....subconsciously....

    Deano - don't get me wrong, my dad was a union rep (although not a H&S rep) and I was made well aware from an early age of the struggle the unions had for a decent standard of employment.

    My objection is solely to the prissy white collar stuff which our department rep takes to the nth degree (it wasn't that I was changing the bottle in an inappropriate manner, it was that I'd not had manual handling training).

    I'd personally like to see all industries which put their workers in any potential physical danger subject to tighter regulations and monitoring. You read about all sorts of tragic occurrences on building sites and the like where unscrupulous employers flout all conventions to save a few quid and get a job done to time. Thats where I'd like to see the energies concentrated.

  38. I watched that without sound, and can confirm that without knowing what he's saying, it is still disturbing due to his jerking about like a bad dancer at an eighties disco. Has it been speeded up? And what is the gist of what he says?

  39. @Vari:

    Originally (that clip's overdubbed) he was talking about tidying up the HoC and MPs' expenses, if I recall.

    But a more stage-managed, fish-out-of-water, please-somebody-put-him-out-of-his-misery spectacle you won't see very often.

  40. No problem Vari - I take your point there is lot of plain silliness talked on the subject.

    Where we in the union movement went wrong was in failing to get the crime of corporate manslaughter on the H&S Statute book at the outset.

    I think that probably the most difficult white collar H&S issue to get people to take on board is bullying. It causes a lot of mental health problems!

  41. I’m with deano on the need for a historical perspective on employment law.

    The laws on their own are not enough, we need everyone to be aware of the importance of following sensible practice, but they do give us far more protection than we used to have.

    Part of my disquiet about bringing significant numbers of foreign workers into e.g. the building industry is that, firstly, it’s potentially unsafe to have people working in a dangerous environment such as a building site when they don’t properly understand each other, and secondly, foreign workers (along with casualised labour and young inexperienced workers) are more likely not to have the confidence (or the knowledge of the legal protection they actually have) to refuse to do something dangerous.

    I’ve worked in enough of these situations to know that it is still a problem, and the knee-jerk reaction of dismissing H&S as just petty bureaucrats interfering is unfortunately not helping...

    In my experience, the sort of people who take pride in their work are the same people who stand up for themselves and their mates, both in safety and political terms.

    The sort who don’t have that pride are the same ones, by and large, who will do things which endanger themselves and everyone else “just to get the job done”, and stab you in the back with the boss.

    There’s a great line in *Boys From The Blackstuff* which makes this point, though I can’t remember it ATM.

    And of course, as Edwin suggests, the former tend to be Kurosawa fans...

  42. Genuine cases of bullying are certainly a major problem and should be firmly addressed. However, there are a lot of claims of bullying and harassment which are motivated by spite or expectations of cash which are certainly not genuine and equally cause a great many problems for a number of people.

  43. The suicides help sort out the genuine from the malicious...

  44. Anyway, in case you weren't aware, Rowenna's taken her jolly hockey sticks to central London with Sunny Hundal and is currently twittering from the climate camp. If you're busy today, avoid the article, or twatticle or whatever it's called - it's absolutely riveting stuff.

  45. If you've missed this in the G2 supplement, its worth a look....


  46. Vari - i watched it mute too, Bell;s cartoon just reminded me of it, the smile that is. Hideous indeed, Swifty, hideous beyond measure. For clips like that it doesnt matter what he's saying, long gone arre the times where politicians are worth listening to anyway, its the forced jollity, that appalling smile, the whole thing is just absolutely repugnant.

  47. Point taken Deano, but organisations should have effective measures in place to identify and deal with bullying, for me thats not health and safety, its management and HR. Also, there are a great number of people whose careers are finished off and destroyed following malicious allegations.

  48. I thought that this was an article which could probably only appear in the Guardian, although I would have pegged it as a weekend one, I liked this comment;

    26 Aug 09, 11:41am (about 1 hour ago)
    You are a living cliche of an overconfident middle class Brit. Rounding off your rustic adventure by writing a newspaper feature on how it all went wrong is just the cherry on the top of your smug cake.

  49. BTW, Jay, I agree with you about ArmA2. That is one unforgiving game (at least, the demo is). Took me about an hour to do that first mission in the demo (Trial By Fire?), all the squad ended up dead bar me, and I got dinged twice.

  50. Unforgiving is an understatement, literally the hardest game i have ever played by quite a big margin, the margin for error seems to be zero. Just wrapped up total war, you really must get that Swifty.

  51. @Jay:

    Oh yeah, meant to get TW last week, then forgot. I'll have a scout round for it. Looks very impressive from my research so far.

    And there's another milsim shooter coming out soon, Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising, which might be a bit easier.

  52. I been keeping an eye on that one, Swifty, looks good. I think you can download TW with Steam, saves a trip to the shop if you're feeling lazy.

  53. Blimey - anyone read the Melissa McEwan rant?

  54. @Jay:

    I reckon ArmA's got the edge, personally, but I am a bit of a fanboy for Bohemia Interactive (loved Flashpoint when it came out) so I'll try and keep an open mind re. the "sequel".

    I've never used Steam, will prob. pick the game up tomorrow when in town.

  55. @thauma:

    Trouble with the boyf, a la Liz Jones or similar?

  56. paranoidandroidsays26 August, 2009 14:10

    Is anyone else having problems posting on Cif, or am I being given special treatment again?

  57. They're out to get you, android.

  58. @thauma:

    She was a Polly Filla-type journo who used to write in one of the tabs (the Mail, I think), got married to some Sikh bloke, nothing was sacred, everything was dissected in her articles to the nth degree, they divorced (surprise surprise), she's now living out in the country and continuing to document her life, neuroses and opinions for anyone who'll give her a cheque.

    PS I've just read that "Misogygny..." article. Christ al-fucking-mighty. Good to see Cath's chipped in with the "great article" comment as well - they're beyond parody, that lot, they really are...

  59. Swifty, she sounds fascinating. To herself.

    I really think the McEwan article is the most OTT feminist piece ever on Cif. And that's saying something. My head started spinning while I was reading it.

  60. @thauma:

    I think it's one of the most unpleasant pieces of boswellox I've read in a long time - the Graun has really upped the ante with that one. And it just goes on and on - when you get to what you think is the final summing up... lo! along comes another badly-written, generalising paragraph saying pretty much the same thing all over again, except even more angrily.

  61. In case anyone else is interested, I’m trying to draw out EmilyB on the BelledeJour thread about anonymity etc at the moment, hoping to relate it to how they got suckered (if indeed they did) into accepting a piece from “Peter Jones”.

    If/when that gets boring, I may check out the MMcE piece...

  62. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 14:51

    I have to admit, I didn't read the whole misogyny article, because I reckon that the most interesting parts will be quoted in the comments. Is it really that OTT?

    I mean, can an article with the gist "why I rather mistrust men" really rival the "why I hat men" article? Isn't it just too long-winded to really be that offensive to normal thought?

    In a good Bidisha piece, you have the urge to *headdesk* at least once each paragraph; Melissa McEwan certainly could not have enough wallbangers to insert into the article at a similar density, could she?

  63. I'm afraid she could...........

  64. Its got to make the top 5 at least....

    It infuriates me to read articles like that.

    Not least because it brings out BTH.

  65. What an astonishing rant from McEwan. So long, so gushing, so heartfelt, such piffle. She has raised the stakes though, how will BiBuBiBu respond?

    The race equivalent would presumably be someone saying they got mugged a few times whilst living in Brixton, and hence they didnt hate blacks, they just didnt trust them. And blacks needed to start earning their trust. People would struggle to find the words for their contempt for her and her narrow minded bigotry.

  66. What annoys me most is that if you dare to disagree you're accused of being a deluded colluder and decried as not being a feminist.

    She's really fucking annoyed me.

  67. @Vari:

    It's CiF America, though, so the normal rules don't apply. You think some of our radfems have chips on their shoulders? You should see the size of the fries the American ones carry around with them...

  68. Want to make a joke about who's been eating them, biting my lip.....

  69. She's American, i presume?

    Also whens Kiz back?

    Good comments on the thread Vari and Thaum, knowing CIF the only people that could possibly cause them to consider their line for even a moment is fems. Male criticism is of course simply you know what.

  70. Actually I mostly feel sorry for her, I can't imagine not being able to trust my family and friends of the opposite sex, just because they're the opposite sex.........

  71. Being America, the chips/fries are all supersized for only a dollar extra. Broad shoulders required.

  72. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 15:18

    Hi Vari, my CiF-name is Matt64, what's yours?

    So that I know which comments Jay refers to ...

  73. Dot - me too, as one of the commenters said (prob deleted by now), it must be hell going about the world inside that head.

  74. Dot, she comes across a little like those old divorced men who offer advice like "never trust a woman, snakes in the grass...", there seems a bitterness that they just cant move on from. It is a little sad, as you say, seems a very joyless existence.

  75. I've now taken the vow of silence on that climate camp thread, but olching, if you're reading, absolutely agree with you re. every single fucking "progressive latte-supping, fairtrade Grauniadista" cliché being rolled out.

    Get out of the thread while you still can, it's like quicksand, it keeps drawing you back down...

  76. I'm Doohnibor on CiF, but I'm not worth hunting out!

  77. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 15:27

    Melissa McEwan's article isn't that terrible. Yeah, some things she complains about sound a bit weird ("men probe my arguments for weaknesses, ignoring that this might anger me"), yeah, she uses feminist theory babble, yeah, she absolutely insists that something bad is worse when it happens to a woman than when it happens to a man without giving convincing reasons for that.

    But there have to be more than 4 worse feminist articles in the Graun, so no Top 5 in my book.

  78. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 15:29

    Thanks Vari for the info :-)

    Now I won't conflate your comments with Dotterels anymore ;-)

  79. Its possibly my only failing Swifty....

  80. Do you think Melissa would trust us?

  81. Sheesh. Rowenna now "needs the loo".

    It's getting more and more "exciting" by the minute, that climate camp feed. Having said that, and having poured scorn upon it from a great height, I am still reading it, so maybe Twitter's brilliant after all?

  82. Jessica Reed, tweeting from @commentisfree will retweet interesting material found across different twitter steams. (or use her position at CiF to argue with those commenting on the thread).

  83. Have all you guys bought this yet? Better hurry, they're going fast.

    Fair Trade Enamelled Salad Bowl - £35

  84. @Vari:

    She seems to take it all personally - any assault on the Graun she seems to construe as an assault on her.

    But she's not that bright, and she often gets the wrong end of the stick.

  85. @scherfers:

    These vibrant fair trade enamelled salad bowls are beautifully crafted by Indian artisans...

    Brilliant. And a snip at twice the price!

  86. Anyone reading that thread would be forgiven for thinking she invented twitter.

    That was my first exposure to it, I knew there was a reason it made my flesh crawl.

  87. Jesus fuckin christ,

    "These vibrant fair trade enamelled salad bowls are beautifully crafted by Indian artisans,"

    I honestly thought you had made that up swifty, i had to investigate. Thats the most "guardian" advert humanly possible. Satire is never as good as this. Vibrant... Indian artisans... salad bowls...

  88. I thought I was linking to a joke, I still think I might have done;

    They look great with our matching enamelled salad servers (see product 18736), especially when dining al fresco!

  89. Oy. You lot. Do some work.

  90. @BW:

    Not today, o sour one, there's far too much fun to be had on the internet.

    I'll have to crack on this Friday, though. Ah well.

  91. I have, I've just ordered my shopping.

  92. @Vari:

    How does the Graun's Eco-Store deliver stuff to you, though - horse and cart?

    I do so hope there are no big nasty diesel lorries or white vans involved. Let us know how you get on at tweet.upitsown.arse.tweet.somethingorother.

  93. Don't be silly! I wouldn't dream of polluting the atmosphere. I pay a little extra for half a dozen little artisan indians to carry the shopping to my house. The poor bastards only get 20 pence from each handcrafted salad bowl.

  94. @Vari:

    That's dedication to the eco-cause, but what's the delivery time on your order? To walk from the subcontinent to England carrying a big heavy enamelled salad bowl - 475 days or thereabouts?

  95. I have just had to comment on the article about men. As some of you I am sure know I am not exactly 'soft' in my views on violence to women etc but my GOd that article depressed the crap out of me.

    I actually feel sorry for her and I actually think she needs counselling - because to not be able to trust any man in your life is a sign to me that you have either had some really bad experiences that you need help over or you have major issues. If i were her male friends etc I would be feeling pretty insulted right now.

    I have just been well and truly insulted on Cif - accused of being a drunkard I have! Most upset.

    Re the men on here - wow there are a lot of practical men around - cabinet making and chainsawing etc.. I am impressed.

    I would like to add my voice to Montana day and also to wish her well at school - the first week is always mad.


  96. Swifty
    Heh, a fine day's work old chap. Multi-linguist too I see ! And Olching posted some absolute classics.

    V amusing. I just couldn't help but stick in some low-brow unpleasentness just now...

  97. A fine post, princess CC.

    Have just gone to the Twatter thread to see what all the fuss is about. Oh. Charliepolecat has a good 'un on there.

  98. @BW:

    Cheers old man, in turn I enjoyed olching's leading sally at approx. comment no.3 which set the dismissive tone nicely for everyone else to wade in and fill their hand-woven fairtrade African wellies.

  99. elementary_watson26 August, 2009 16:44

    princess: Your comment on CiF was one of a handful of really really good comments which pointed out another perspective than the one-way view of the author.

  100. And of course, as Edwin suggests, the former tend to be Kurosawa fans...

    I've got all his stuff on DVD ;-)

  101. @ Swifty

    I thought you were jesting about the lass and the loo Swifty and then I came across it:

    "Need the loo, but apparently the compost toilets are still "under construction"."

  102. Cheers guys. I'm still trying to get out of the thread. It is quicksand. I'm being sucked dry...what an excruciating experience.

    Good team effort though, I thought...

  103. Jay's introduced a new avenue on the thread with the fair trade salad bowl. It's absolutely priceless...

  104. I see it was introduced here by Scherfig...anyway, it's now on the CiF thread, too.

  105. LordS

    Don't worry about the 'meerkat' is the new 'Tuscany'. Justice was done. You got deleted, I got banned.

    They really don't like it...I think they've found something out about 'Peter Jones'..Georgina and Matt are probably still deciding about how to best present the bad news.

  106. Sorry, been dipping in and out this week.

    Banned MF ? BANNED ???


  107. PrincessCC: good post on the misogyny thread.

    To be brutally honest, Melissa McE seems, on the basis of that one piece, to be more sad than bad. My alter-ego has tried to give her some gentle advice, but it’ll probably be interpreted as Blaming the Victim...

    And am I the only one who thinks that the turquoise colour of that salad bowl and servers is just a little too faux-ethnic?

  108. but my GOd that article depressed the crap out of me.

    I have to confess to not knowing whether to laugh or cry myself after reading it. From the heart most certainly and many good points contained with in it but I'd hope feminism had more substance to it than demanding people say 'humankind' rather than 'mankind', and then getting bent out of shape when they look at you in a funny way.

    As someone with a science-based outlook on lifem to me, man IS a gender neutral word in many contexts.

  109. BW

    Yep. Charliepolecat is no more. No worries, there's probably a Charliemeerkat out there somewhere waiting to step into his shoes.

  110. I both mourn the demise of Charliepolecat and welcome Charliemeerkat to the wonderful, yet confusing world that is CiF.

  111. Hang on ... they banned you but didn't delete the post that led to your banning? What kind of effed-up logic is at work there?

  112. I was moderated for suggesting that she was mistaking contempt for herself personally, for misogyny.
    Another outrage by the spawn of Seaton.

  113. Uh oh stoaty, just done the same thing (although slightly more subtly....)

  114. Forget the misogynists - Joseph Harker's having a go at Microsoft (and Poles and East Europeans). I hope Peter Jones' girlfriend doesn't read it. She weel not be heppy.

  115. Dotterel,
    Bastards, see how long you last.
    BTW 'Spawn of Seaton' is a quote not plaigerism.
    It is so good I'd like it to catch on.

  116. O Christ - Melissa! weeping and bleeding all over the page. Where are our doughty heroines? Man calls a woman a cunt round me he'll get a punch in the face...metaphorically of course.

  117. Oh must have been very recent - you did some corkers this AM.

    Which post got you the slam ? Did you keep it ?

    Well, anyways, I toast to one and all

    "long live Charlie(insert woodland creature)"

    PS To any real ale & glass) fans, I'm in a quandry: I'm sure I read recently that Marsdens technically qualify as a pubco thse days, but they're doing their best Double Drop Ale at Morissons for a quid a pint.

    What am us to do ???

  118. Monkeyfish
    I shall miss charliepolecat - thought it was a good name. Get your weans to think up another, they're obviously good at it.

  119. OK, who's taken the CiF hamster out of its wheel again?

    Yes, Richard Gere. I'm looking at you!

  120. Double Drop at a quid a pint - what should I do?

    Take out a bank loan and buy them dry.


  121. Bitterweed

    Marstons probably technically qualify as a pubco, but their CEO, Stephen Oliver, qualifies as a total wanker without the saving grace of the 'technically' bit. Warning, the following link contains references to Hobbits ...

    It’s hard to keep the gobby hobbits happy

    I am avoiding Marstons beers for this reason. Note that I don't say 'boycott' because there might be a time when Marstons is the only beer available, and we don't want to cut off our nose to spite our face here on Summerisle Island.

    Ironic that Oliver should be so dismissive of CAMRA. If it weren't for them, Marstons would most likely have closed or been taken over in the 1980s.

  122. Sheff: gentle soul though I am, I think even a non-metaphorical slap might be appropriate in that situation.

    Not, I stress, for simply using the word, but for calling a particular woman one. The difference is important, but tends to get lost in some of the wrangling.

    You might want to answer the question that brookmyreaddict asked on that thread @ 4.47, but please, no incitement to violence...

  123. Thanks, good tip Deano, but I ain't going anywhere loan city. (Even for life-saving apparatus that is cask ale !)

    @Lord Summerisle
    Blimey, what a total wanker. Thanks for the heads up.

    Here's what I'll be forgoing for a while then (all Marstens brewed):

    Burton Bitter
    Old Empire
    Marston's Smooth
    Double Drop
    Single Malt
    Owd Rodger
    Oyster Stout - Introduced in 1994 as a 4.5% standard stout marketed to accompany oysters. (Trying to go all Belgian eh ? - BW)
    Smooth Extra Cold - 2007-2008 sponsor of England's Cricket Team.
    Ringwood Best Bitter
    Jennings Crag Rat
    Banks's Original
    Banks's Bitter

    I fucking like Jennings too. Bum holes

    Timothy Taylor's Landlord it is then. And put one in for all this lot too Landlord !

  124. Landlord is a top pint.

    Today on my travels I had a couple of jars of Brodies from Leyton, East London. The Red was pleasant enough but nothing to get worked up about, but the IPA was nectar.

    Gonna have to make a trip to the King William IV sometime soon!

  125. Brodies IPA - sounds good LordS !
    If you or anyone else here ever gets up Northants area, give me a bell, I know plenty of great ale houses. Real glasses, real banter, no tossers.


  126. BW

    I like to see an informed consumer reach a considered and sensible decision about a buy without a resort to credit. Well done sir.

    Landlord is a little sweet to my taste, I prefer the session bitter from TT myself, but still an admirable choice in the presence of a political objection...

    I came across a new (to me) micro brewery on Sat last - York brewery. Its shitty named "Guzzler" was a fabulously hoppy delight both on the way down and again on the up.


  127. Olching, it was indeed scherf who spotted the offending salad bowl. I couldnt stop laughing as i walked home just thinking about it.

    "I thought you were jesting about the lass and the loo Swifty and then I came across it:"

    Thats the weird thing about CIF today, flicking around between here and there, when swifty etc have made comments I have genuinely assumed it was satire, UT banter, but countless times, to my horror, I've found that these comments are in fact real. The Guardian is in danger of fast becoming a living satire.

    I live pretty near this climate camp, its almost worth going down there just for the comedy value. I might ask Rowenna about the vibrant salad bowls.

  128. Well D, I have to say I saw the whole credit crunch thing coming and sorted all that crap out in my life four years ago. I owe no-one a bean now, and, frankly, they can stick their cards & loans where the monkey stuck his nuts.

  129. JayReilly
    Well I asked about their vibrant salad bowels. They have't twatted back yet.

  130. BW

    What happened to pre-mod btw? Have they stopped doing that?

    I'm guessing it was one I aimed at Joseph Harker that got me the elbow. Wierd thing was, they left it up and then deleted LordS for responding to it.

  131. BW - good on you friend.

    All my (few) beans are my beans too.

    It's a good feeling to be debt free. I just wish more ordinary folk could enjoy it - it might encourage them to say fuck off employer/politico a little more often.

  132. MF
    Pre-mod doesn't always apply, nor do they necessarily corespond afterwards. The stroppy little binterns.

  133. Deano
    Indeed. It's not how they've built it all up though is it ? Thatcher years saw property ownership as a way of attacking employment rights, if you ask me. Did you get my message the other day by the way via Montana ? Sent over a copy of the Foot thing.

  134. Back laters
    Mrs Bitterweed needs mousaka

    Speaking of Greek - anyone heard from Kiz ?? I know she's away, but I hope her gaff didn't get hit in that awful firestorm.

    Lemme know anyone ??

  135. Sheffpixie - what you said about twatting blokes who would call you that - it is because you are a proper Sheffield bird like moi.

    The word only gets used in my house by me and only if Tony Blair appears on the telly. My husband never says it - not because he is right on but he is from Harrogate and a bit posh so he doesn't swear as much as me.

    thaunaturge - your comments were excellent on there.

    Colinthestoat. I used to think the very same about Andrea Dworkin. She was abused I think when a child and she was so messed up. I think she hated herself - I read an interview with her before she died - even the interviewer got that impression. The thing is Dworkin to her dying day still believed men were the devils work but she lived with a man who by all accounts stuck by her through everything, even though they never had sex because she believed sex with men was wrong. Theres nowt so strange as folk.

  136. Might take you up on that sometime, Bitterweed. Righty-ho, I'm off to watch the Arsenal game with a spag bol and a bottle of red.

  137. That mysogeny article was too depressing for words. Reminds of all the silly arguments about 'chairpersons' in the 70's!

    I fear its already 7 pages long and I really don't have the energy to plough through it.

    Has BTH turned up? Ultima?

  138. Andysays you great big tart !!!!

    Heh heh.

  139. The mods have just called time on that misogyny thread.

    I’ve invited someone called Flewellyn round for an afterhours session if she (I think it’s a she, and I think from her use of the word dude that she’s an American though I’m probably wrong on both counts) wants to continue the discussion.

    Anyway, if you find us here, Flewellyn, make yourself known in some way. I’ll try to make sure everyone’s on their best behaviour...

  140. BW: who you calling a tart you bloody pasty?

  141. So much for best behaviour...

  142. I’ll try to make sure everyone’s on their best behaviour...

    In which case might I suggest you change that screen name to andypolitelysuggests because andysays sounds like just the sort of thing that might be taken as a patriarchal attempt to impose your authority on the debate before it's even started.

  143. andymeeklybegsforgivenesssays26 August, 2009 20:06

    Sorry, my Lord...

  144. Lardsummerarse
    How are the gooners doing ? Just had dinner then been on the phone. And are celtic wearing that bizarre trafic-cop-on-acid away kit ?

  145. Shameful dive from Eduardo means we're 1-0 up after scoring from the penalty. Celtic are dressed like a swarm of footballing wasps.

  146. andygrovellingsays
    The moniker 'andysays' could also be interpreted as misogynistic, 'cos you deliberately excised the C from the original name in patriarchal fashion...

  147. Perhaps he should just change it to andysmissussays ;-)

  148. MsgrovellingChinsays26 August, 2009 20:20

    .. sorry for interrupting the football commentary guys. Shall I get you all a nice cold beer? In a plastic glass of course ..

    *tiptoes away*

  149. My Lord,
    That is the sort of quip that reduces poor Melissa to tears.

  150. LordS
    I think he was seriously considering andysgirlfriendsays at one point.

  151. Yeh, and get the phone too willya ?!

  152. I hope you realise I won't be able to listen to Velvet Underground without thinking Candy Says is andysays now.

  153. Bitterweed & other people fond of playing their instruments

    Music thread alert
    from John Harris - Pay for music sometimes or live in a world of buskers.

  154. MsChin:

    And let’s not even get into the implications of the fact that the original song was about a transsexual, because I’m sure I don’t know what they might be. Maybe your chum Kristeva could enlighten us...

    Candy Darling

    Actually, I think I once jokingly said that my GF was going to sign up on Cif as andysgirlfriendsays as she claimed it was the only way I’d talk to her. As if...

  155. LordS: you may have missed previous discussions on this subject, but the name andysays is totally inspired by that song. And my current name is inspired by *Train Round The Bend* off Loaded.

    Are you a VU fan?

  156. Does anybody have a partner, wife, husband, GF or BF on cif?

  157. Totally missed them, Andy. I wasn't even sure if your name here was a reference to anything in particular but I did briefly consider Charley Says as the source.

    Yes, I'm a VU fan and Lou Reed too (New York is one of my top ten all time albums) but for some reason the (C)andysays connection didn't register.

  158. stoaty
    Mercifully, no. Imagine the cyber rows!

  159. comparethemonkey.fish26 August, 2009 20:34

    Politeness, real ale, Arsenal?

    I'm off for a few pints of Kronenberg and a read of the Independent and come up with a kickass new moniker. Think I might think up a few. They seem to like banning me. Maybe premod is for the cheeky scamp/ loveable rogue type. They seem to have down as a full-on cunt (or a meerkat...whichever is worse). I'm soooooo offended.

    Think I'm definitely coming back as a Polish woman next time. I'm gonna have dodgy spelling, put the verb at the end of the sentence, take offence real easy and hate decadent bourgeois types. And men... especially fuckin men...all except 'Peter Jones'.

  160. colinthestoat

    "Does anybody have a partner, wife, husband, GF or BF on cif?"

    You kiddin...my life wouldn't be worth living.

  161. MsChin,
    I was thinking how awful it would be to inadvertently chat up the missus.

  162. Lady Summerisle lurks the threads and looks out for my comments. Fortunately for me, she agrees with most of them. At least that's what she tells me.

  163. Velvet Underground are probably the best band ever. More or less. I went to see them at the Dagenham Roundhouse once. I was excited for days. Pity Lou Reed and John Cale had already left...

    The in-laws took over my office for the last week, so I haven't been able to log on at all. Any comeback on the Bindel thread? The maligned families, I mean.

  164. Monkeyfish, I suggest you call your Polish woman Katrina Meer and see how long it takes them to work it out.

  165. Do you vet the threads to make sure they are suitable for her? I would.

  166. Shameful scenes at the Emirates tonight, as they remind us of a return to the dark days of the eighties when entire world cups were marred similar events.

    "I thought those days were long gone", said one traumatised father of three, "and now my youngest has started copying these disgusting acts."

    Reminiscent of Maradonna's Hand of God, Eduardo's dive dragged football down to a low point many had hoped was in the past.

  167. Nah, Lady S cut her teeth in the feisty world of the BBC gardening and birdwatching boards. CiF are a bunch of girl's blouses compared to what she's used to.

  168. Meer is, of course, Russian for peace. So if anyone questions the name, it has pedigree.

  169. Blimey, lots to catch up here.

    Shameful Arsenal indeed.

    Like the new monicker idea MF.

    Thanks for the heads up. Harris has got this one right.

  170. LordS: does that mean you missed my moment of glory on the What’s in a Name thread which I somehow conned Cif into running?

    I don’t like to blow my own trumpet too much, but that was really quite amusing.

    If you can’t be bothered to plow through all nine pages, the punchline is (obviously) on the last one.

    martillo: leave the *probably* out of that sentence and you have my verdict.

    But once Lou had left, they were all over, in my opinion. Still got the records and the various bootlegs to listen to, which I do regularly...

  171. Bitterweed - No I ain't yet got a copy of the Foot article but would very much like one. Didn't know you had been kind enough to send one.

    Perhaps Montana busy cos it's back to school time. She does have my email address

    I've not taken up the invite to use the phone so if I don't get a copy soon I'll drop her an email to ask.

    Thanks for including me in the circulation.

  172. Yeah, missed it. Or forgot about it. Did I know you as andysays at that point? One thing I'm certain of though is that I didn't see the end of that thread.

    High five!

    CiF obviously ranks you as the lovable rogue/cheeky scamp type seeing as they didn't ban you right away for that act of subversion. So 'fess up, which one of you was SyncophantSue describing Matt Seaton as an internet visionary? I have my suspicions that BarabbasFreed might be one of us too.

  173. Talking of girls blouses LordS reminds me of Frederick Furnvall.

    Imagine eight of them, all starched and perhaps even creaking, and all pulling on an oar before your very eyes.

    My them Victorians knew how to live.

  174. "girl's" and "Furnivall" was intended in the above.

  175. @ princesschipchops

    I did enjoy, and agree with, your spirited posting(s) on Toynbee's article yesterday. Pity it was so late on the thread I would have been happy to wade in with you I had seen it earlier.

    Poly takes a lot a flak but from time to time picks up on something I can agree with. Usually something that she knows is not likely to come to pass in her lifetime.

    BTW - MsC, the third Sheff lass, if you ain't picked it up yet is aka MsChin.

  176. Hi guys

    Back in town - just a quick 'ello.

    Montana - If you get on here this evening, I sent you an email (about something nice). Just wanted to make sure you got it. Sometimes the email traffic is slow.

    Have a good evening.


  177. LordS: no I don’t think we’d ever met at that point.

    They may have had me down as a cheeky scamp back then, but I soon disabused them of that idea. That story will have to wait for another night when there aren’t impressionable young minds around...

    Hi Bru, how you doing?

  178. Oh yes -
    a belated welcome to princesschipchops !

  179. Hi Bitterweed, so is it you who's got the Paul Foot Lockerbie article?
    I'm confused, thought it was Montana but would really appreciate you sending it to me at danielmarescopearce@gmail.com

    Off to Marrakech in the morning- hope it's warmer than London

  180. Andysays

    Hello there. Psyching myself up for tomorrow and back to the grindstone. After a few weeks sipping Ipanema cocktails in the sunshine it's going to be a cold shower.....

    I found this great cocktail bar. You wouldn't believe the combinations. There was one called "Sex on the Beach" but after one of them I doubt you'd remember what you did on the beach.

    And there was another called "Swimming Pool" - oh well at least you'd drown happy. Glug.

    Got to get ready for tomorrow and a massive reality check.


    Kiz should be back soon.....

  181. Warmer than London Dan?

    Yorkshire has that distinct first autumnal chill on the wind tonight!

  182. yeh, noticed that here as well. funny how quick we forget what chill feels like. the memories soon come back tho

  183. There was one called "Sex on the Beach"

    I asked for one of those once. The barman poured a bucket of sand down my swimming trunks.

  184. Dan
    On its way
    Fuck that Harris article has brought out some depressing responses.

  185. Oh Christ, life lands me another smack in the mouth...banned.. and up pops Ed Balls with an all time classic...

    "My ambition is a state education system in which every child can succeed and can fulfil their potential."

    ...thinking he's ambitious and radical. Shouldn't that statement be the very minimum required of an education secretary..before even the basic matters of competence, integrity and a bit of strategic nous are brought into the frame?

    Ooops, pardon me your honour..."education secretary"...I should have said.."Ed Balls MP is secretary of state for Children, Schools and Families...indoctrination and filling the whole fuckin banana plantation with private sector management consultants, 6 months out of Oxbridge who haven't even got the basic typing skills to land themselves a job at the Guardian".

    God, I love this country...it's more of him or the friggin Tories. You've got 2 choices...a poke in the eye with a sharp stick or a sharpened piece of wood thrust into your optical organ...don't forget..it's all about choice these days. You lucky punters!

  186. Loved it MF. You lucky.......PPE's

    Tommy Trinder for PM - so what he's dead too.


  187. 197 comments - a while since we had 200 in one day.

  188. Montana

    I guess your busy at the start of a new school year but when you have a spare minute or two please could have a copy of the Foot article that Bitterweed has left with you.

    Many thanks - hope the salt-mines not too grim.


    night all.