01 November 2009

Daily Chat 01/11/09

The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was exhibited for the first time in 1512.  Shakespeare's Othello was performed publicly for the first time in 1604.  Early reviews called the play misogynist, racist and offensive.  Lisbon (the one in Portugal, not the one in Iowa) was destroyed by an earthquake and tsunami in 1755.  Between 60,000 and 90,000 people were killed.  Mehmet VI, the last sultan of the Ottoman Empire, abdicated in 1922 and the Maastricht Treaty went into effect in 1993.

Born today:  Edna Krabappel/Marcia Wallace (1942), Lyle Lovett (1957), Anthony Kiedis (1962), Magne Furuholmen (1962), and Aishwarya Rai (1973).

It is All Saints' Day.  D√≠a de los Muertos celebrations begin in Mexico.


  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  2. Shakespeare's Othello was performed publicly for the first time in 1604. Early reviews called the play misogynist, racist and offensive.

    I didn't realise Ye Guardian was published back then ;-)

    Interesting though, things clearly haven't changed much in 400 years. A bit of controversy is always good to bring in the crowds.

  3. Just read Will Hutton's article and I realise why I don't comment much on Cif these days. The best i can say of the article is that its good in parts and the comments from the usual suspects are - usual.

    I can hardly summon up the energy to reply to them. Perhaps its the rain - making my asthma worse!

    Of course Will completely fails to point out that private services are often cheaper because they a) pay their workers badly b)use cheap materials. Like for like public should be better because there is no profit motive (or needn't be).

  4. Walter Schirra, 9th man in space and veteran of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programmes was once asked what he thought about while waiting on the launchpad. He replied ...

    "This was all put together by the lowest bidder".

    Alan Sheppard later reiterated those thoughts saying "It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realise that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract".

  5. Ah I see someone else has read Marquis Steel's 'Moque the Week' 1604 diary entry -

    'Did see play called Moor of Venice last night - sheesh, is so anti-blackamoor and so derogatory of our beloved Eliza's noble gender I could scarce look upon the stage, while My Lord Francis Boyle did hoot and hoot from his seat etc etc. . '

  6. Right ... back to something we want to brush under the carpet. When I back-read the thread I missed what was deleted and so only read the admonishments and atonements. Look, Fencewalker is absolutely allowed his/her rebuttal (and well-articulated FW)- likewise kiz if she feels she's been dissed.

    But we should allow some time in the broken biscuit barrel for Hank & BW. They're fucking angry - I know it's not our problem, net-curtain twitchers, it's their problem but when *we* read it (whether as entertainment or as communication) isn't it our wider blog-community problem too? If it's not then Hank & Bw are just another set of personalities that we watch self-exploding on screen.

    Hank - you have a well determined commitment to social/political standards, great stuff when you're on form - but your message is fucked mate in this abusive alcohol invective cycle you've got yourself into. You know it, you've said it, you've lost friends and relationships because of it - hello? this is you telling us this cycle's not productive for your well-being. Get help Hank - because you're worth it.

    Likewise BW - stop with the 'hoping you get cancer' crap anytime someone gives you the shits - sorry about your dad - you need to work this through mate.

    Sherfig - butt out on this - you just whisk fluff and shit-stir.

  7. Sorry, parallax, I must remember to do exactly whatever you tell me to. Who are the 'we' you refer to, by the way?

  8. scherfig - always destructive - I rest my case

  9. Annetan42 - I'm glad to see you are still calling in at UT - hope the asthma gets back into its box soon. I agree with you about Hutton's piece today.

    The piece on Hockney his deafness/East Yorks passion/ and life in general in today's Observer is a delight.

    I'm reminded that he had been visiting a magnificent stand of trees at a road junction not far from me for several years - his desire being to paint the trees at each of the four seasons.

    This year when he returned in the spring to continue with the project he found they had been cut down over the winter - he was not best pleased...

  10. parallax, look mate, I've no idea who you are and I don't recall ever reading anything interesting from you. On the very rare occasions you post here it seems to be to get yourself involved in some sort of row. I imagine that you are some sad and lonely character who doesn't have any real friends to scrap with, but I wish you'd find another project to serve your needs. To me you're just a sanctimonious, patronising bore with a huge chip on your shoulder. Anyway, I'm not going to play your fucked-up game - one gratituous insult from you drew me in, but I'm out now. Find some other suckers (preferably on another blog).

  11. Wow that last post of mine took about twenty five minutes to load - which is why it looks so oddly out of synch! I won't delete it because that too would look odd...

  12. Parallaxview:

    I've been taking bets with myself on how long it would be before something like this blew up again - well I didn't have too long to wait did I? I wasn't going to bother posting because frankly it does get a tad boring having to repeat yourself every six weeks or so.

    But it's one thing to have the row here - quite another to go over to CiF and slag off harmless posters like Kiz and Lord S.

    Hank behaved like a pillock - far from coming over as "the great serious poster" he is making himself a laughing stock in public. I didn't see anything about Bitterweed - I wasn't looking to be honest - so I can't comment and I do know he's had a particularly hard year.

    The fact is that this site had shed a lot of good posters. Even when it attracts a lot of comments you can see that these often are mainly between a small group who go on for hours. I personally don't care about that - I'm just pointing out that quite a few have voted with their feet.

    Hank has a problem with people not being serious enough as though this site were a hot-bed of solutions to the world's problems. The hell it is. If you look at the past few weeks, there's a great deal of purely social chat.

    I have no problem with that at all - but - would some of you have the decency not to slag off other people when they are engaged in exactly the same thing over on another site?

    At least the people on the "enemy" site are sober and coherent and the threads don't descend into incomprehensible rantings as so often happens over the weekend here.

    It wasn't so long ago that a number of posters here were slagging off Hank to the skies, now they seem to be treating him like the leader of some nutty American sect, whose every word is Heaven-sent.

    There are still some excellent, moderate posters here, but they do get drowned out. That's the problem.

    I'm not commenting further on this so anyone can slag me off if they wish - I have better things to do with my time - but at least I'm honest and dead straight about this issue.

  13. Parallax
    I don't see the point of your intervention at this stage - it sounds like a bit of a wind up.

    Come on guys...it's a rainy sunday morning and everything is quite grey enough already.

  14. Bru - thanks, yes I know posters are absent because of the sect :) I'm not sure why I'm speaking for Hank and BW (lord knows they speak for themselves). It's just that I wonder if all the noise they make is beyond the words they say.

    Hi Sheff, sorry if you've missed the point of my intervention - thanks for the weather update

  15. Parallax
    Fencewalker has already said it all and pretty cogently too. BW has apologised. If Hank chooses to make a prat of himself on cif that's his business. And no, I don't approve of gratuitously slagging people off but neither do I think it's a good idea to feed the flames.

    Anyway - looks like the clouds are clearing so think I'll go and get a life.

  16. "It wasn't so long ago that a number of posters here were slagging off Hank to the skies, now they seem to be treating him like the leader of some nutty American sect, whose every word is Heaven-sent.

    It is quite possible to disagree vehemently with a guy about "X" whilst agreeing almost completely about "Y" and then moving on.

    It simply requires a tolerance to agree to disagree and an ability to count from one to ten. That does not constitute cult worship in my part of the world.

    Hockney's Trees

  17. Sheff, ffs it's not that Bw and Hs are kindle to a fire - and we fan the flames - it's more why are these posters self-immolators?

    And we should ignore this and get a life?

    pixels on a screen pixie?

  18. If anyone is still interested in the Trafigura case, NRK have published loads of Trafigura's internal documents on their website (despite the threats of legal action which managed to scare the UK.) Norwegian television told them to fuck themselves, and the case is ongoing. Apart from the many references to health hazards, toxicity and various illegalities here's a few snippets about money:

    Claude owns a waste disposal company and wants us to be creative. Graham has worries that it will all turn black. Leon and I want it cos each cargo should make 7m!!

    This is as cheap as anyone can imagine and should make serious dollars.

    The whole story makes very interesting reading here if you persevere and read all the stuff. In short, they knew exactly what they were doing all along, but didn't give a fuck. If their tanks had blown up in Africa or Sri Lanka instead of in Norway, we'd probably have heard very little or nothing about it.

  19. It is quite possible to disagree vehemently with a guy about "X" whilst agreeing almost completely about "Y" and then moving on.

    Well said Deano and thanks for the trees.

  20. scherf - was considering going out and you drop this one! Had a quick look at some of the emails - what a bunch of bastards - everything done on the cheap and mega bucks for them with very little concern about legality.

  21. Sheff, I would go out first, and read that particular horror story when you've a bit more time. It's like some satanic farce - they were trying to get people to take the shit everywhere from the Middle East to Houston to Africa just to make a few bucks. They nearly ended up in Amsterdam, but it was too expensive so trafigura pulled out! Complete and utter bastards.

  22. think I'll take your advice scherf - there's a lot of info there. I hope now its up on the net there'll be a huge global stink raised about them. Many kudos to the Norwegians for publishing this!

  23. oh right ... pixels on a bigger screen

    yah, let's take on Trafigura cases - let's chat about it until our jaws ache - let's pretend we can make a difference

    let's ignore people right in front of our noses

    let's imagine we're important and others are just chat-room bullshit

    hey maybe I'll get my picture in the press again and live off it for the next thirty years

    guys, this is socialism now - good to see you casting long trawl nets

  24. [tiptoes in, carefully]
    Well, the party went well. Feeling a little fragile.
    Just wanted to share this, favourite spooky piece of music. Spine-tingling.
    The latest Andrew Brown thread got me thinking about how music can affect us emotionally - someone posted that
    well, I am not much of a Christian but when I sing Charles Wesley's great hymn, for that moment I do indeed believe that "Christ the Lord is Risen today".
    I've been at services where the atmosphere was heightened significantly by the music used (to an uncomfortable degree). And there's that frisson that music can give you - music from my extensive and eclectic collection can bring sadness, or joy, or be uplifting, or motivating, or bring a tear to one's eye.
    And I defy anybody not to go around checking their cupboards after hearing this:
    The way that music, art, can touch us and affect our emotions has always fascinated me. How certain chord sequences, descending lines, breaks, key changes, can wring an almost physical effect. Anyway. Need more coffee.
    [shambles off, puts kettle on, goes 'ow']

  25. PhiliipaB "The way that music, art, can touch us and affect our emotions has always fascinated me. How certain chord sequences, descending lines, breaks, key changes, can wring an almost physical effect".


    Yes. yes, yes that's the discordant language we (that's community *we* sherfig) decipher others

    Thanks PB

  26. parallax -
    hey maybe I'll get my picture in the press again and live off it for the next thirty years

    That really is a pathetic - say what you like about me I really couldn't care less. If you want people to engage with you just stop being a twat. To be honest the Trafigura business is more interesting than talking to you right now.

  27. Sheff - cool, sorry you never made back into the big time again - but more sorry that you live off a sound/picture bite - and I see all your posts are about YOU - hmmmm

  28. Let's try another subject instead. Paranoia, envy, low self-esteem, and a pathological need to attack other posters personally - can these sometimes be endearing and interesting qualities in a blogger? Discuss.

  29. Ah, stop talking about yourself sherf - you know we love you but it's always about you innit :)

  30. parallax

    Don't you see what you're doing? - it's exactly what you were complaining about others doing.

  31. "hey maybe I'll get my picture in the press again and live off it for the next thirty years"

    That was crass - low life crass.

    The wind has a blast about it today. Walking around a corner I was nearly taken of me feet. One of those twice or thrice in a year winds that you get.

    The wind was still warm enough so that if you take your clothes off and lean into it you get a great wind shower, even a flailing if your lucky. What you certainly get is a reminder of your own insignificance.

  32. What you certainly get is a reminder of your own insignificance.

    Wise words, deano, although I doubt that such a recognition would appeal to certain people. Even though their insignificance is plain for others to see.

  33. PB - hope you got your wicked way with some innocent at the party..

    "someone posted that
    well, I am not much of a Christian but when I sing Charles Wesley's great hymn, for that moment I do indeed believe that "Christ the Lord is Risen today".

    I thought that I read on one of your CiF posts that there was a Methodist voice in your childhood? Delusions are our stock in trade here on UT.

    Pull girl pull - what you think of the Hockney trees?

  34. deano - heh heh. well, a little mild flirtation with a strapping young guitarist ten years one's junior is a good tonic for the soul, eh? no harm in that...

    yes, my dad's a methodist minister, and i do think that the songbook (the devil may have the best tunes, but the methodists have the best hymns) is a great part of the church. but i was hung-overly and tangentially moving from that to lots of music that really affects me. 'how great thou art' is always going to make me tear up a bit, but so is 'into your arms'. which, with the opening lines "i don't believe in an interventionist god, but i know, darling, that you do" is pretty much how i think faith should be acknowledged - as something personal. so in my defence, i'm only delucing myself...

    anyway - footy's on, and i've been promised cheese pie. a bien tot, tous...

  35. PB - lovely warm post above.

    " ...'how great thou art' is always going to make me tear up a bit,..."

    'tis me and I've always thought of myself as a Viking existentialist would be/Quaker.


  36. Oh that fegging delightful wind - It strikes my van from an unusual and unfamiliar angle.

    If the devil wins the whistling contest he will have my van on its arse by the morning.

  37. There's a helluva blow going here Deano - hope you are securely battened down.

    I'm hoping the Snake Pass stays clear tonight - I've got to pick my ex old man up from Manchester airport.

  38. Not a lot a trees across the Snake - but watch out lass.

    If you were mine _ I would say (just to be safe) quickest route to M1 and then north to M62 and then across and round the hills to the Chester motorway. No trees that way - but you have to set off early...

    Be cautious young lass the wind has been blowing strong all day - eventually the trees give. Don't be overly scared trust your instinct.

  39. Take care Sheff is wild up here in Glasgow.

    Phillipa, surely all young guitarists are strapping their instruments (except for the slide guys i suppose - sorry this was intended to be witty but has turned into a failed joke!).

    One of the loveliest sounds I ever heard was a Gaelic service outside the Free Presbyterian church in Portree - was an elemental day like today, the congregation and precentor opening up the other world in this one. Fantastic.

    A Church of Scotland committee took 'Jerusalem' out of the COS hymn book in the 80s, dismissing it as 'the English hymn', thus demonstrating their lack of knowledge of spirituality, music and politics - the dimwits.

  40. Not to labour a point - it has been a very dry summer in Yorkshire - trees like Vikings give more easily when they are sodden ( as we were last night in Yorks)

    If I were a tree and a wench offered me a wet I would tell the tale without regard for the consequence...........I wish I were better but I fear that I am not.

  41. I have thought about going by that route - but it's such a long way round and knowing my luck I'd be flattened by an empty truck going over! :-))

    Perhaps it'll calm down a bit in an hour or so.

  42. Edwin

    I bet it is!I used to love being up in the Campsies on a wild night with that view over the city.

  43. My dear young wise miss Sheff - let us never forget the wise fall-back ...

    ".........sleep on the bench ..........lover of mine ...........I will catch you the day after ..............or if you very good and best-est ..........the day after that.

    You can always catch the sway of large lorry in your lights before it yields....

    You be careful young woman.,

  44. Since it's Sunday, and we're talking hymns, 'Just a Closer Walk With Thee'

    Mahalia Jackson

    Patsy Cline

    Can't find Van Morrisdon's version but that's great too. (Hymns from the Silence album).

  45. Sheff a friend stays in the high flats in Springburn and on a clear day you can see the hills of Arran and Ben Lomond - fab. The city at night is spectacular as well, but with a hellish tinge to it.

    Scherfig the best version of Just a Closer Walk with Thee I ever heard was by an evangelical Christian who used to be a 50s rock singer - damned if I can remember his name, but how moving he was.

  46. Deano - thanks for that will go and look at the Hockney article forthwith.

    Parallax - please calm down that comment about sheff was uncalled for. ffs what purpose does it serve?

    Go and punch a pillow instead!

  47. Anne - read the Hutton article. Thought it made a good point about private services not at all necessarily being better than public ones, but it started wandering toward the end.

    Deano - you have made a couple of excellent points today (X and Y, and lack of class).

  48. scherf - that Mahalia Jackson is lovely. Almost any hymn played by the Grimesthorpe Colliery Band gets to me.

  49. Sheff
    Take deano's advice & go the long way to Manchester. I lost control of the car last Monday in a sudden downpour, on the bendy stretch as you go up to the top of the Pennines. Very scary & very lucky nothing was coming the other way at the time. Classic unpredictable Pennines weather, with glorious sunshine before & after the top, which was shrouded in mist as we approached it. Much safer on the motorways ...

  50. Thauma I did read it - yes that is a good point but it really didn't get to the nub of the problem and it was muddled.

  51. Hey Scherf _ I normally can't get you tube.

    I just had the 5.28 uninterrupted lady Mah Jackson - a lady of my un-acquaintance I think I wanna lay with the lady

    I'm on for the full concert with cline...

  52. I feel inadequate:

    "................the day after that."

    was truly intended to be quite separate from the follow on:............

    You can always catch the sway of large lorry in your lights before it yields....

    How can I ever hope to help my comrades if I can't punctuate my brain....

    Sheff - if the clouds stay dispersed you will at least have the benefit of a fullish moon tonight

  53. Anne - oops, left out the pronoun! What I meant was, I read the Hutton article ... not a directive to you to read it, which you obviously had.

    I thought it started off well but then, as you say, got muddled.

  54. Your right Deano - an excellent article, thanks for pointing me to it.

  55. No worries Thauma - do it all the time!

  56. Scherf - that Cline lady was fine when I (can't actually sing - it a whaling thing for me) joined in - so did me dogs.

    I have no possible complaint.

  57. deano, this might be better for you than YouTube. You can fool around with it, but I've got it set on Mahalia at the minute. Lots of music for your cold winter nights!


  58. I am not into idle flattery - it sits uncomfortable with a one eyed wild tramp of a sometime wanker .-- But I do think annetan42 caught the story of the day - and early at that.

    What Hutton said was not unique and was not original - but it was, as my sister said, interesting.

    I should have added to what annetan said. I am the lesser for my silence.

  59. Evening all

    Had a lovely weekend with friends and my dad is back from far-off climes into the bargain. Can't believe it is Sunday evening and back-to-the-grind time again already though. Ack.

    Nothing much of real interest on Cif today though, although I stuck my nose in on the I/P Sharon thread for five minutes. Don't you just hate it when they close a thread for comments and you haven't been able to rebut some nonsense someone has said to you? Gah!

  60. BB - inadequate York lad said J'adore

  61. disagreeable tuesday - an outrage.

    Catch you ...............there's a confusion.......hope .......you .............just might have might have found me..........................as I did you

  62. Hey deano!

    Good weekend? Just pottering about and watching catch-ups of FlashForward which is a not too shabby sci-fi series on Five. Based on this book, although in the series, people have "flash-forwards" 6 months in the future, not 20 years.

  63. Whoas Parallex - I am sorry but... I am normally a bit of an old peacekeeper type who hates arguments and as a fairly newish newbie here I tend to keep out of stuff. But fuck me you are bang out of order. First off what you said to Sheff is pathetic but I am sure she is more than capable of sticking up for herself against the likes of you so I will shut up on that.

    But your sneering, superior posts are getting right on my nerves. Go away, take a deep breath, have a glass of wine, smoke a spliff, put some good music on do something but stop hanging about to do nothing more than stir.

    BB - I have got into flash forward too - it is not bad at all but I am a bit of a sci fi geek- followed your link and might get the book too.

    Deano - gosh the wind. It has blown me down pipe off today. It is something fierce.

  64. Princess

    I kind of ignore people who are just here to stir, generally. Having said that, if he had a pop at Sheff he is a sad, sorry little man and not fit to polish her DMs.

    Yeah, I am really enjoying Flash Forward too - my husband is the real sci-fi buff in the house, but a lot of it rubs off on me - brainwashing, I call it! :p

  65. I can raise an army in Yorkshire to defend Sheff - that TWAT could not get beyond Nottingham

  66. No miner likes the name of "Nottingham", deano. Nor any Robin Hood.

  67. Oooh yes we mining stock hate the mere mention of Notts. Scabs. But I have a good mate who lives there so they is not all bad.

    BB - it is the same with me the other half is massive sci fi fan although my dad was too and he got me into it at an early age. One of my earliest sci fi experiences was watching Alien - it just blew me away. I have been watching Stargate Universe too - the first of any of the stargates I have watched but they are allright.

    Me and 'him indoors' are very sad though, we love Star Trek Voyager!

    Deano - count me in your army - sick and tired though I may be my dogs are good scrappers!

  68. Stargate is staple dinner-time viewing in this house, Princess. I quite like Universe as a new take on it. And I love Robert "Begby" & "Hamish MacBeth" Carlisle in it.

  69. Yeah I am loving Robert Carlisle in it. I just find sci fi so relaxing. But could not be doing with Lost. Watched season one then gave up!

    Off to bed now to watch some Dexter (another cracking programme although not sci fi) nite all. x

  70. This comment has been removed by the author.