16 November 2009

Daily Chat 16/11/09

Jadwiga was crowned King of Poland in 1384.  Prettiest king ever, so they say.  Pizarro captured the Inca emperor Atahualpa in 1532.  Fyodor Dostoevsky was sentenced to death for anti-government activities in 1849, though the sentence was later commuted to life at hard labour.  Benazir Bhutto was elected Prime Minister of Pakistan in 1988.

Born today:  W.C. Handy (1873-1958), Alexander Blok (1880-1921), Chinua Achebe (1930), Griff Rhys Jones (1953), Frank Bruno (1961), Diana Krall (1964) and Paul Scholes (1974).

It is the International Day for Tolerance, so get out there and tolerate things!


  1. Good morning everybody! Greatly enjoyed reading over last night's thread, which all took place while I was watching crappy US import TV dubbed into French, while eating chocolate.

    A few things:
    - it's nice that while, the recent ridiculousness has been very unpleasant, it seems to have been the catalyst for some v good posters to come on over (shaz, leni, lovely to see you)
    - Jane Austen rules - anyone who thinks that her books aren't 'worthy' because they are restricted to the domestic sphere is missing the point - she knew her politics, just didn't make it explicit, because that wasn't how a nice middle class woman acted in those days, I think. A forerunner of the West Indian heiress is the thread running through Mansfield Park about wealth (and ruin) coming from the plantations (which they made more explicit in the Billie Piper version, less said the better). Persausion is prob my favourite, but unfortunately seems to have got left behind in the move to France, boo. Will have to have a look for it in the boxes stored with the APs over Christmas.
    - Angelina Jolie good in Girl Interrupted, but otherwise...I think there are two types of 'beautiful'. One is 'static' - the models / actresses etc who look good in photos. The other - and to me the more attractive - is 'mobile', where it comes from seeing the person 'in real life', moving about.
    - Janeane Garofalo, incidentally, has done great stand-up on the size issue in fashion. She is damn funny as well as being v hot.
    - And the blank canvas thing for models is just a function of the presentation not being about them, but about the designer/look. So models, really, need to be bland. As well as too skinny for words. Even the 'supermodels' are fairly insipid really. Someone like Alicia Witt much more interesting to me.
    - Brideshead? Up to a point, Lord Copper.

    Right. Am supposed to be working. Will therefore be rambling at sporadic intervals as that gradually falls apart...

  2. Morning, mschin, flying visit. Work beckons.

    International Day for Tolerance? Oh dear, as if it's not bad enough being Monday morning.

  3. Wondering what sort of things to tolerate for the day, and can only think of reducing my road rage (and blood pressure) by being nice to prats who have carved me up in their bloody great 4 wheel drive petrol guzzlers.

    Mmm that might be too difficult.

  4. I'm planning to tolerate some biscuits, and possibly a John Le Carre.

    Baby steps...

  5. Charlie Brooker's piece is genius. I haven't seen any of these ads (so far French TV is being quite restrained - it's just the Canal+ reindeer getting ready to jump out of a plane) but I can now picture every single one of them, and am chuckling accordingly...

  6. It is the International Day for Tolerance

    I declare today to be:


    Female intolerant


  7. I'm tolerating the e-mail from my parents boasting about what a fantastic drunken time they're having on a beach in the Caribbean, while I'm stuck at my desk, grrr!

  8. ´´Trucluent´´?

    posed the dyslexic Duke??


    Is that not the stuff you used to glue airfix together?

  9. Dot - heh heh - just have to share the last email from my Dad...

    Friday night and UK is bracing for a storm. 2 deaths at Southwold church in the last ten days and still plodding through 6 church reviews/audits as well as praying for peace every 11.00am this week at Darsham, so all been a bit busy. Hope storm abates for tomorrow 5.00pm when Alan G's ashes due to be fired over Aldeburgh beach via a giant rocket, after which must rush to 70th party for farmer member at Peasenhall ... Next morning I baptise his latest grandchild, Lilly, whose parents run a pig farm andd can't make up mind whether to preach on Lilies of the Field or Gadarene Swine.

    I have recommended to him that he starts a blog, but as he still thinks that websites are physical places, that might be beyond him...

  10. Duke

    Since we're into apparently into drug enhanced, as well as drunken posting over here, maybe we should just sniff it?

  11. International day for Tolerance?

    Lovely idea, count me in.

  12. MsChin,


    Female intolerant
    Up (the)


    I'm stretching, I'm stretching, help me out.

  13. Duke

    We'll stick with plain DAFTY Day, methinks. Don't want you suffering from lassy band syndrome this early in the day.

  14. Morning rex.

    And Duke - I mean elastic band not a 'lass', obviously.

  15. MsChin - thanks for the clarification, had an image of an all-female brass band outfit there for a moment.

    Or the Raincoats.

    I'd like to look like you,
    But I am me and you are you

  16. MsChin i thought a lassy band was like Goldie and the Gingerbreads!

    Tolerance Day hmm - well am leaving the bike and will use my bus pass this morning, no shouting today at drivers and pedetarians

    Phillipa your dad sounds wonderful, thanks for that.

    That Jadwigga is a babe!

  17. Afore I go here are Goldie and the gals (introduced by Peter Cook!)


    Oh the pounding of my heartbeat. . .

  18. I see I've started a musical trend for the day.

    Gotta to go & tolerate some motorists (no cyclists or pedestrians on the road I'm travelling on, you'll be pleased to hear). Back later.

  19. Morning all

    Your Inebriate Grace - trucluent is rather good, happy to go with that.

    Phillipa - I love the sound of your Pa - blog definitely a good idea if all his letters to you are in that vein. Could you set it up for him? Bit concerned about the 2 deaths at Southwold Church; sounds like an episode of Midsomer Murders.

    rexmundi - Now who'd a thunk it? Nevertheless, welcome and I hope you'll stick around.

    MsC -Tolerance day today...hmmm...must give that unfamiliar concept some serious thought. Difficult for one who appears to be a female version of Victor Meldrew but will try. Might start with not lobbing bricks at the cats that shit in my backyard.

  20. Philippa,

    Definitely get your Dad blogging, if he can manage e-mails he can manage that?

    Everyone else, may I be the first to ask:

    If you tolerate this, are you not worried your children will be next?

  21. As a start I offer you all this

    Love is all around

    See, I'm trying.

  22. Tolerate what Dot? Have I missed something or am I just being gormless?

  23. From Charlie Brooker this morning:

    I keep hoping it'll suddenly cut to a shot of a deranged crystal meth user squatting on the cold stone floor of a disused garage, screaming about serpents while feverishly sawing their own hand off at the wrist.

    He must have been visiting the UT, or possibly His Grace.

  24. Sorry Sheff, the thread had put the Manic Street Preachers in my head, I just wanted to share the earworm...........

  25. Dad has a nice turn of phrase, to be sure, but whenever I mention it, he just says that with the material he's given, there really is no other option! His Christmas card inserts are now carefully vetted by mother after he managed to imply a year or so back that I'd been abducted. Don't ask...

    Every Christmas I get handed the shoebox full of 'round robin' letters received (and my parents, having looked after a total of 16 churches in the last 30 years, get a hell of a lot of cards) and while most are the usual 'Jemima got Grade 4 clarinet' and 'this year we went back to the holiday village in Cyprus for the ninth time', there are some right crackers. Most of which, strangely, are from fellow ministers / stewards. So maybe there's something in Dad's comments about material...

    Something that's always struck me as funny is the difference between the professional comic and the 'real' people you know who can always come out with a gem of a line. While some comedians make me laugh - a lot - what makes me laugh most is a conversation in which there's humour coming from all sides, riffing off each other.

    Maybe 'ooh, you should write a blog' is the new 'ooh, you should be on the stage'. Often, sadly, it's too different an animal from its source to work out well! (and I include myself in that...)

    Anyway, have emailed off report and schedules, will now be twiddling thumbs until a response is received. Can you tell I'm at a loose end?

  26. MacShane's back, and you'll never guess what he's talking about...

  27. Thanks Philippa, now "I predict a riot" has replaced the Manics.............

  28. Am beginning to think that MacShane and BTH are the same person.

  29. Doh, I keep doing this - to clarify, I mean it's great news that the police are aiming to do something about it (assuming the govt accepts the ACPO review), not that I'm pleased about the quantity of serial offenders.

  30. Interesting, MsChin
    The review considered proposals including:
    • Persons at risk of violence have the ‘right to know’ about relevant information

    Is this the like 'notification' system that was mooted re child abuse (i.e. a mother entering into a relationship with a new partner could ask the police if they had previous)?

    I mean, if you enter into a new relationship, is your first thought 'let's vet this guy/gal?'

    Or would it be that the polis would turn up unannounced - "that chap you had a drink with Friday? Bit of a wrong 'un, love, if you don't mind me saying". How would they know, apart from anything else? constant surveillance?

    I agree with you that it's good they are trying to do something about it, but perhaps one of the reasons why they haven't previously is because it's so bloody complicated. Hope they manage to find a practical solution...

  31. Pip

    Haven't read through the review yet, but more to do with informing the victim about someone's previous form for domestic abuse and/or other violent offences in their previous relationship(s), I think. Some guys (and it is mostly men, I'm afraid, that appear in the police stats) do have a succession of relationships in which they abuse each and every partner.

  32. MsChin - yes, and I think that's where I see the problem - if you wait for the victim to be a victim (and report to the police, which can take many incidents, sadly) to tell them, 'yes, s/he's done this before', then I'm not sure that would do anything more than make the victim feel worse, although it could make them more likely to testify knowing there would be back-up.

    For this to be a preventative measure, they'd need to monitor what the abuser was up to, where they were and who they were seeing - and practically, that could be difficult and resource-heavy, quite apart from any argument about 'rights' - and then turn up and notify.

  33. having read that bit of the report - prop 2 - it seems they are going for it as a preventative step, but seem to have fudged exactly how...

  34. Denis MacShane is a fucking arsehole

  35. Pip

    I think they plan to do that through existing high risk case management processes, MARAC and MAPPA, and probably through offender management such as surveillance, as you've pointed out. Surveillance could mean being court-ordered to stay in a probation service hostel, but in the States tracking-by-satellite technology has been used for repeat DV offenders who are assessed as dangerous.

    ACPO thinks that a publicly available register for abusers wouldn't be workable at the moment. So it's about dangerousness - putting things in place to manage the risks from most dangerous.

  36. Frank

    You may have a very good point there.

  37. Plus the error over the age of one of the victims wasn't too edifying, was it. So I'll quote AllyF on the subject:

    Don't care who was responsible, but the editors at Cif should change that one IMMEDIATELY because that is one hell of a major fuck-up.

  38. Frank - I wouldn't normally agree with a statement like that unless it had been peer-reviewed by the Daily Mirror but, and this is purely anecdotal, I think you might be on to something there...

  39. You have been busy little bees havent you, jesus wept, just spent my whole lunch hour wading through this place and waddya.

    I saw Farleys rusks mentioned somewhere. Does anyone else still eat those sometimes? Bit of milk, crush them up, really very good...

  40. I really don't understand why they keep wheeling out Mcshane - he just drives everyone nuts. My tolerance levels have just hit the floor and I've been trying so hard all morning to be a good, tolerant, happy little soldier.

  41. Sheff - it's a trap, pet, don't fall for it...

  42. Hey Jay, yes it was a quiet weekend around here.

    Never had you down as partial to a Farley's though.

  43. Very partial to a bit of rusk, MsChin, i only indulge a couple of times a year but have been known to do a box in one sitting, very morish...

  44. My other half shares your taste there, Jay. And I believe sheff fessed up to liking the odd nibble.

  45. @Jay: God, I was brought up on Farley's rusks and insisted on them for years after I was supposed to have moved on. Nice spread with butter, with a bit of cheese on top, if I remember correctly.

    Wonder if the chemist at the end of the road has any?

  46. Rusk fans everywhere

    You can get sugar-free ones now, I think.


  47. I was slightly hesitant to admit my liking for baby food but am thrilled to see other Ruskers here! My respect for the UT crowd has just risen another notch...

  48. Aw, Jay, I imagine a lot of us were weaned on Farleys as they didn't have jars of organic baby food when we were little. And if you had a younger brother / sister, of course you would've nicked theirs ..

  49. I'm the baby of the family, MsChin, i had my rusks stolen by siblings and also my mum (who still eats them). True sorrow you have not known until your rusks have been stolen...

    Stay away from the sugar free ones, and the banana rubbish, need the "originals". They're like Weetabix, once you get started its very hard to stop. Maybe Kirby could do an article on them next week.

  50. Fence just asked on the McShane thread if anyone was running a sweepstake on deletions for it. Made me sputter me coffee anyway!

  51. Oh dear, poor Jay, a deprived childhood.

    Quite like the Weetabix too.

  52. OMG not had rusks since I was only slightly too old for them (little brother's) I can still remember the taste though.........

  53. Just come clean, Dot, you take a box of rusks down the river with you. Its ok, you're among friends here. Rusk admissions - this could go national.

  54. Don't remember rusks. Sounds like I missed out.

    Fond of weetabix though. Haven't braved 'Oatibix' et - any views?

  55. Jay,

    hang on a minute, new rules.

    You can only post on here if you can provide clear evidence of you being a drunken, boorish misogynist.

    It's called the BTH clause.

  56. am suffering artist's block.

    secular christmas cards - have done candles, trees, baubles, presents, wine (bottle and glass), and stars. anybody thing of anything else?

    has to be easy to draw, they only sell for €3 card...

  57. I was feeding rusks to small children only yesterday afternoon - managed to slip one away which I ate later - yum, nearly as good as porridge.

  58. your grace - well, last night I polished off half a bottle of rose, swore at the cooker, and I'm currently wondering if the contestants on Brain of Britain ever get laid - does that count?

  59. Jay,

    I'd love to come out, it seems to be becoming trendy, alas, I was telling the truth: everyone knows the river biscuit of choice is the plain hobnob.

    Your Grace,

    Last night I watched Top Gear with a glass of Rose, may I stay?

  60. Phillipa,

    don't mention weetabix. Growing up, we always had weetabix.

    All my mates mums bought them the good stuff: 'sugar-coated-choc-frosted-fizzbomb-flakes'

    whereas I always got landed with tedious weetabix.

    I still have issues.

  61. Phillipa

    Holly, mistletoe, robins, snowpersons ...

    If all else fails, go for glitter!

  62. Dotterel, Philippa,

    it's not me you have to convinve it's the all seeing puritan BTH.

    Explain it to him on WADDYAA and start a whole new viral thread again.....

  63. Duke

    Erm, I don't think I can meet all the criteria for the new clause. Although MAM did accuse me of being rude once ..

  64. MsChin - might essay a snowperson! the collage side of things is going great guns (reindeer in santa hat, penguin in santa hat, polar bear...in santa hat, you get the picture). The watercolours are a bit more difficult, mainly because I'm not very good...

    your grace - as a child, going to visit friends who had such culinary shocks as food that came in shapes, and ketchup on the table, always made me rather confused...sadly for my mother, her 'I'll make it from scratch, it's better for you' and 'real food only' approach didn't prevent me from being far chubbier than the kids who ate the junk food...

  65. Dog pissing on xmas tree. Always a winner.

  66. Shredded Wheat. I hated Shredded Wheat. Like eating the inside of the guinea pig's litter tray.

    With milk on.

  67. dog in a santa hat pissing on tree?

  68. peterj - was very confused by the ad on last time I was in blighty of botham wittering on about his heart while walking through a giant shredded wheat. it's the only way we get rid of the raffia mountain, that's my view on it. peh.

  69. Did anyone else eat weetabix and allbran, together?

  70. Hello to all.

    Apologies...where to begin?

    The big one first, to Hank Scorpio, I unfairly and with cowardice mocked what I now recognise was a heartfelt post. I have no excuse. I am truly sorry. If I am worthy of forgiveness, then I beg for it.

    To Montana, sorry I gave you cause to be dissapointed in me.

    To everybody else, I am sorry for lurking, I can honestly tell you that I continued to do so for a lot longer than my initial curiosity warranted, because, well, you all make interesting comments.

    Best regards and a good day to all,
    (Grovelling Snivelling Wretch - 1st Class Hons.)

  71. hey, heyhabib! - welcome on board, hope the cereal-based riffing today hasn't damaged your view of the interestingness of our debates...

    am sticking with stars for a while. they easy.

  72. hey habib, welcome to our abode.

    "You can only post on here if you can provide clear evidence of you being a drunken, boorish misogynist."

    You are relatively new to Cif, Duke, but rest assured, my pedigree on boorish misogyny is second to none. BTH has a vast dossier on my literary crimes.

  73. OK, I vote Zoe Margolis the best ever ATL peep. Not just for an interesting article. Not just for coming BTL and smacking the hell out of people. No, for recommending me this:


    Really. Check it out.


  74. Jay - I know, apparently you can deploy weapons of mass misogyny in only 45 minutes...

  75. Yay! heyhabib

    Welcome to the den of thieves. I have been wondering whether you'd put in an appearance. Glad you have and you can get off your knees now, our penances are quite light.

  76. Hi Rex and hi Habib - welcome to the institute for cereal offenders.

    Being Scottish I only eat oatmeal and with salt of course, milk on Sundays.

    No fuss about lurking Habib, indeed I am a Cif lurker these days (must be an anagram there). I enjoy your comments, and am glad to see you here.

  77. Phillipa
    weapons of mass misogyny

    lol! - can I steal that?

  78. yep - late to the party again

    this is for Brusselsexpat:

    I see the baying hounds have missed one salient point.

    Your generosity in trying to help a faceless other that you met on line and trusted.

    Thank you Bru - for that I'm sorry that you were spurned and turned against. I think I can see why you lashed out. Sadly all they can see is the lashing not the generosity - how blinkered are they.

    Cheap words after all.*

    I respect your concern to help when you can, I'm sorry that others don't.



    *quote Hank: "I'm guessing she's infertile, lonely and unhappy in her job" - Hank, you are a fucking disgrace

  79. Hey Habib,

    Nice to see you here - step into the fray.

  80. Jay,

    aah I see. Please accept my apologies for questioning your boorish misogyny.

    Like all ATLers on CiF I didn't bother to source or research before writing my piece.

    And hello Habib.

  81. Edwin - frucklier?

    sheff - be my guest, pet!

  82. Your grace,

    Indeed, I have seen BTH's personal dictionary, the entry for "boorish misogynist" has a picture of Jay's face...

    ...with darts in it.

  83. Dot - I think a couple of us are there next to 'self-hating'...

    Right. Must do something constructive.

  84. WMM in 45 minutes? I'm no shoddy theocracy in the deserts of the Middle East, i get my bile airborne within 45 *seconds*!

    Dot - just a minor point, darts are considered phallocentric by BTH, and considering the aura that surrounds darts as a competitive "sport", BTH deems darts themselves to be intensely misogynistic.

  85. Afternoon All

    You can't have Snow persons - only Snowmen. Snowmen are spiritual hermaphrodites who leave their essence behind on earth ready to be hatched the following year when conditions are right.

    Winry landsacapes are good - a rexmundi tree snow bedecked for instance. Look at Robert Graves for trees suitable for December.


  86. Jay, I apologise, they're not darts per se, not being the classical dart shape. They are of course modelled on something else, but their appearance left me lost for words, darts was the closest word my misogynist, patriarchy infected brain could muster.

  87. Wintry landscapes even.

    Serial abusers - tried a few years ago to get figures on this - felt that numbers of abusive men was too high - cases of abuse counted by women's complaints - no account taken of fact that one man can have multiple relationships and so abuse several women.

    It is a huge problem - one abuser is one too many - but until we really get the figures right we will not solve it. We need to start looking at the boys who are likely to do this. Too much research concentrated on after the event figures. True also of abusive women.


  88. Leni

    Was it you who was looking for me on the previous WDYWTTA re: fat birds?

  89. Dotterel

    Yes it was .

    I am a great bird lover and feeder. I watch them a lot as they feed - the Jays for example can pack food away as though there is no tomorrow - never seen a jay too fat to fly. What mechanism prevents the eating too much - I understand about fast metabolic rates but it doesn't explain it . Parrot has constant food source - stays slim and sleek - he love bacon and egg but knows when to stop !

    Also very interested in birds' ability to think and problem solve.

  90. Dotterel

    Also - fish and birds. Similarities - diversity of form and colour - flocking/shoaling - predatory/grazing etc.

    Sorry all - I should have been a biologist - only one in family to study humanities - regarded as rogue element.

  91. Leni,

    Will try and write more another time (busy and have to leave at 4.15, sorry) but just wanted to share that there's been work done showing that fatter blackbirds (European blackbirds: Turdus merula) don't venture as far from the bushes because they know they can't escape predators as easily. Because they don't go as far they don't find as much food, so they're no longer fat blackbirds..........

  92. Dotterel

    Thanks for that - I shall think along those lines. Have identifiable blackbirds here. Will watch them,

    Interesting - the 'awareness' that fatness limits ability to survive. Mmh!

  93. Leni/Dot

    Recently noticed a pair of Kingfishers on the river by the building where I work. They really are exquisite and flash about among the ducks with abandon. They appear to be nesting in the shrubbery on the fiver bank opposite my window - which is not good for getting any work done.

    We also have a daft goose on the river who thinks he's a duck and has his own little duck family that he's constantly rounding up and mithering on at.

  94. Shrff -thank you for likeing me.

  95. Evening all

    DAFTY day was ace, but DAFTYPUNK day has won it for me. 'Specially as I am a big fan and have seen them live a few times. Although they are pretty much "let's stand here and twiddle knobs and look cool". Still, the muzik is what it is all about.

    The most boring person of that ilk I have ever seen live is Fatboy Slim, though. No disrespect, Norm, but a bloke running up and down a stage with a laptop in his hand is not my idea of entertainment. I have been spoiled by Karl Hyde leaping about the place like a thing demented, so anything less than that is just silliness.

    Anyhoo - speaking of silliness, off to look at what delights CiF has to offer this cold November eve. BIAB

  96. thaum

    Spot on about darts. Do you remember the Not the Nine O Clock News sketch (or it may have been Alas Smith and Jones) where instead of throwing darts they were knocking back shots? Was brilliant.

  97. Deano

    Kingfisher or goose?

    Kingfishers are very rare in this bit of Wales - see them very very rarely. Harbingers of magic and mysticism

  98. Evening BB
    Good debate going on on the McShane thread - princess, jay, olching, and ally all doing stirling work and making it really interesting.

    Deano - shrff? did you mean me - 'course I do you daft old goose.

  99. Montana

    Like the pretty king - will look him up. Wil be disappointed if he was a bastard .

    Who remembers King Rollo ?

  100. Thanks for the heads up, sheff. I will go and see what McShame is up to this time.

    Deano - you are a soft bugger at times. We are all fond of you!

  101. So King Jagwida died in childbirth. The pretty king was a woman - is also a saint .

  102. Imagine being made King (or Queen) at ten years old. The country would be immediately turned into a skate park if we tried that now...

  103. Evening all. Am trying out my tolerance skills on the laptop atm, have spent 20 mins trying to sign in & failing utterly...

  104. I don't supppose..............

  105. On the proposals for new legislation for serial abusers.

    Male or female, anything that helps bang the bastards up is fine by me. I get so sick of seeing horrendous photos of injuries only to have the victim either fail to turn up on the day of the trial - and let's face it, you would have to be some kind of heartless to have them arrested and dragged into court for failing to respond to the witness summons - or turning up and refusing to give evidence because the abuser has "learnt their lesson".

    Yeah. Til the next time they put you in hospital.

    Course of conduct can be used for harassment cases - I don't see why it shouldn't be used for DV, frankly. "Between the dates of blah and blah, carried out a course of conduct resulting in assault/abh whatever"

  106. you would want to be in a sentece with me


  107. I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue is back!!!!


  108. Just read Charlie Brooker. Makes me LOL every time. Wish I could write like that.

  109. BB - lawyer on earlier was muttering about 'bad character' submissions or something, which he said already covered "course of action" - compelling testimony from witnesses does worry me a lot though...

    On the notification point, it sounds like they're proposing a new 'register', and 'pre-emptive' notification. How exactly that would work I do't know - the report itself seems to tie itself in knots (and the references to legal advice and 'balancing rights' suggests why).

    Something else that could get gutted under judicial review (good point on the McShane thread, btw, I banged on about that before, but didn't have the energy this time, to be honest...)

  110. Just like to welcome all the new UT-ers it just shows its an ill wind eh!

    Re- cereals porridge or (dare I admit it?) MUESLI!!!!! with lots of fruit.

    I can tolerate Shredded wheat with hot milk but with cold ugh! My grandfather called it the chaf bin!

    PB I have always cooked 'from scratch' didn't stop me from being overweight either! :(

    No justice is there?

  111. Cereals?

    Muesli if I am feeling virtuous. Otherwise, I love cheerios. An evil treat is also crunchy nut cornflakes with sliced banana and double cream as a makeshift pudding. Nums.

  112. Hey HeyHabib

    I didn't read the thread but I'm sure I've heard worse. I'd confidently say I've said worse too, so I'm not going to get too precious about it.

    Forget about it, and stick around.

    It is the International Day for Toleration after all...

  113. I'm not joining in the trafficking thread ...

    But I will say that I think that Jay underestimates the physical dangers in prostitution. It's all very well saying other people get attacked / injured in the course of their daily work, but as far as I know, none of them will need gynaecological reconstructive surgery whereas I do know & know of women involved in prostitution who have needed that kind of clinical treatment.

  114. annetan - no, but we have the moral highground. or wholeground, in my mother's case. ahem.

    gotta be raspberries or strawberries on my late night cereal treats. but no cream for sale in france, bizarrely. creme fraiche, yes, UHT cream substitute, yes, UHT can-based aerated sugary chantilly mcgubbins, yes. But no cream. What's that about?

  115. Prettist king ever, and Benazir Bhutto elected PM of Pakistan today in 1988, prettiest world leader ever...?

    After the Plutonium Blonde, of course.

  116. mschin - ditto, couldn't think of anything to say beyond "go go princesschipchops!"

    I am conflicted on the subject - individual v collective liberty, depth of harm, etc etc etc.

    but at least it's a better thread than the article deserved - that often happens, dunnit? like the 'atheists are boring' thread, there was a hell of a good debate after we'd all got over coughing and spluttering and calling the writer names...

  117. Leni

    I don't suppose you can help - that wiman who is devine and now living in Sydney she
    occupies divine she is a ballet girl - what is her name??

  118. Where's heyhabib?!

    Aw. I thought he had popped in to say hi. I wish he would. He's a good guy. :o)


    *me waving*

  119. New Friends I am not a tester

    I often can't find the begin of my sentence let alone the end.

    How nice to find you here.

  120. Pip

    re cream - creme liquide in cartons was the nearest i could get. a bit like single cream.

  121. New Friends I am not a tester

    I often can't find the begin of my sentence let alone the end.

    How nice to find you here.

  122. Bloody typical! - a really good debate got going on the McShane thread - one of the best for ages. So what do the sodding mods do - they close it for the night.

    Phillipa - you're dead right about the thread being better than the actual McShane piece

  123. New Friends I am not a tester

    I often can't find the begin of my sentence let alone the end.

    How nice to find you here.

  124. Deano

    Not off hand - any more details ? DEvine or DIvine. Are we talking saintly dancers here?

  125. Deano

    WE could have a game - best ending to half a sentence.

  126. Phillipa

    In a nutshell - yes, conflicting views but a gross underestimation by many of how dehumanising selling one's body can be, and the nature of the physical harm it can cause to body parts being used for someone's sexual gratification. Doing 10+ punters can cause vaginal bleeding, for example. Don't think 10+ blokes getting their rocks off is worth putting any woman through that, tbh. And if one's specialism is anal, then there are continence risks, or so I've heard from gay men who provide such paid services.

    And then there's being kidnapped off the street. That happened to a friend of mine, who escaped several days later covered in bruises, bites & burns, but (mercifully?) with little memory of the abuse as they had been drugged.

    So yeah, it's all about choice, innit, choosing those kind of risks over a roof over your head & food on the table.

  127. And hi also to shaz and leni - really glad to see you two.

    Untrusted is a great place for a gab - I tend to leave early & when the big boys & girls start looking into their empty glasses I edge towards the door - then I do have a weak bladder!

  128. Chin

    That is a commnding post - I will follow it through before taking a view

  129. The word I sought was commanding

  130. Leni

    She be called summat like busie

  131. MsChin

    "So yeah, it's all about choice, innit, choosing those kind of risks over a roof over your head & food on the table."

    Excellent point.

  132. Is it Darcey Bussell, deano? This isn't a cunning ploy to out me as an afficianado of the fine arts btw?

  133. MsChin

    I think you misunderstand me slightly. I consider it very, very different from any other job, in many respects. I dont doubt the physical violence, or the trauma that many/most would experience from it.

    And i know arguments like mine can sound callous and obtuse on the subject but its because we are talking about the law, not my views on something, not whether i want my daughter to do it, not whether I'd do it, etc.

    And laws should be made objectively, rationally and not on personal choices, likes and dislikes. I also think law should be based on principle, not specifics (if you see what i mean). Most laws are underpinned by principles, and those principles are far fewer in number than the laws they dictate.

    And judging from the arguments put forward for criminalisation then the principles that would underpin it, if applied elsewhere would lead to lots of other things being criminalised.

    I think there is a difficulty setting out a principle based law that criminalised prostitution, and even more difficulty setting one out that just criminalised the buyer.

    Then there's the practical arguments, like drugs, does prohibition help or hinder? Reduce harm? Reduce demand? Supply? Etc.

  134. Hank

    I knew you were a closet toff all along!

    Yellow-bellied running-dog lackey of the decadent Western Imperialists!

  135. That's the lass .

    Dream on you halfk bake that you and I love the same women is a perchance

  136. Jay

    I have to say I find the "strict liability" aspect of this new legislation worrying. If a punter has a heart, he will take care to ask all the right questions to make sure the girl isn't being abused. But if the girl is clever and needs the dosh - or has been primed by her pimp in what she should or shouldn't say - she will lie to him anyway. I can't see how that can possibly be justice.

    They might as well just make the buying of sexual services illegal if that is what they are aiming at.

  137. Reconstructive surgery - oh fucking hell, that is too horrible to contemplate. And it's also why I think legalising and regulating is the best idea - surely it's got to be safer than driving it underground and on to mafiosos.

    There must also be a huge difference between streetwalking and "escorting" à la Belle de jour. While I could *just* see myself doing an escort thing in the direst necessity, I could never be a streetwalker.

    Probably mostly because it seems that someone with a few hundred quid to splash out is likely to be safer than a kerb-crawling punter, but that is probably not necessarily the case at all. In fact, now that I think about it, someone who's got that much cash to chuck around is probably more likely to be a sadistic control freak.


  138. Yes - Darcey - great woman and dancer.

    Evening Hank and all other late comers.

    Actually going to watch tv now - Israeli Lobby in UK - C4

  139. "They might as well just make the buying of sexual services illegal if that is what they are aiming at."

    That was pretty clearly the point of the legislation. Smith said in interview she wanted it vague so that men would hopefully just not take the risk, it was Sky News. They know themselves the figures are baseless. It is using the latest panic issue to force through an ideological goal that has existed for a long time for the likes of Harman and Smith.

    Thats another practical objection to the law, its dishonest, it is law by the back door. Thats why the strict liability is needed.

    Regarding Olchings point, i didnt mean to give the impression i dont see any difference between pulling pints and sex work. It is a tool of debate, in all honesty. The point, for me, of asking what the differences are is that when people answer it always leads to problems. Any reason they give, from experience, usually means lots of other things would have to be criminalised too.

    Unless you want to make law by specifics that is, "this is illegal because its wrong, though the reasons its wrong will not be applied elsewhere, just sex work." I dont think thats good law but am happy to debate.

  140. Despatches tonight 8pm C4 - Inside Britain's Israel Lobby - could be interesting.

  141. "There must also be a huge difference between streetwalking and "escorting" à la Belle de jour. While I could *just* see myself doing an escort thing in the direst necessity, I could never be a streetwalker."

    Apparently streetwork makes about 15-20% of the total. The differences between street and indoor seem enormous in every respect, violence, drugs, salary, working conditions, organisation structure, just everything. Streetwork must be living hell.

  142. International day of tolerance...brings up the great divide again..

    Those who tolerate the intolerant...and those who don't.

    The identity /pseudo left...and the real left who had universal values and would never sell out organised labour just because it was materialist (which wasn't locally 'authentic') or didn't wear a kaftan or subscribe to some creation myth featuring giant kangaroos etc

    There's gotta be a limit to toleration...and that limit needs to be tolerated.

    Tolerate's a transitive verb. Needs an object...toleration is a pretty vague and abstract concept in search of a predicate. I'm rejecting the day of tolerance, not as a general principle but for being essentially meaningless. Quite OK with a 'Be nice to your neighbour day'..."Stop moaning day".."Try and see the other person's point of view day" or even a "Take a machete to work day", but these ill defined, indistinct, nebulous, 'gesture', feel-good type days leave me cold.

  143. ms Chin - ''It's all very well saying other people get attacked / injured in the course of their daily work, but as far as I know, none of them will need gynaecological reconstructive surgery whereas I do know & know of women involved in prostitution who have needed that kind of clinical treatment.'' That is awful. I know women get beaten etc in prostitution but I never even thought of that side of things. I really like your posts on the thread about DV a while ago and think you have some extremely valid points to make. But I can understand your trepidation.

    It does seem to have been a pretty well mannered thread though. And no one got nasty or shouty (not even moi) and some interesting debate.

    Philippa thanks for the props - blushes.

    Sheff - you have just made the most eloquent argument for why it is not easy to try and claim it is just like providing any other service. Brilliant stuff.

    Olching has just expressed his dismay at the thread closing for the night. Why so early and why anyway, it was not a nasty thread. Even McShane didn't come in for that much abuse which is rare stuff indeed.

    Talking of nasty I encountered a bonkers troll late last night calling him/herself prommgw. They were going on about western women and saying they were not worth anything not even a donkey! They also told me that as a woman i would probaby enjoy anything i slimed down!

    But they got deleted which was quite disappointing as they were the funniest posts I have read in ages - proper crazy stuff.

    Hello heyhabib. Welcome : )

    Jay thanks for reminder nearly missed it.

  144. Oi - you telly-owning lot are making me feel left out.

  145. Thanks, HankScorpio, I'll not forget.

    A respectful silence is sometimes required when you've been such a prat.

  146. Jay - although streetwork only makes up about 20% massage parlours are not much better. They are still a world away from being an escort for a few hundred quid a night or an upper class pro who can earn thousands from rich business men.

    In fact a lot of the violence has been carried out on women working in parlours and that is where the majority of the work seems to be.

    I could not even do the thousand pound a night thing because I just could not have sex with someone I found repulsive. I mean John McCririck might turn up for God's sake!

  147. Leni, you asked a while ago:
    "Also very interested in birds' ability to think and problem solve."

    I feed the pigeons on my balcony every morning at eight. They come and eat for ten minutes, then they bugger off. Not much mess, not much noise, but every time my downstairs neighbour sees them amassing on the opposite rooftop, she starts throwing things at them, because she hates them.
    Now, and I kid you not, as soon as they hear her balcony door open, they hide behind a chimney. As soon as I put the bread out, they come and eat it, then they're gone.
    On the ocassional (!) morning that I am late, or hung over, the pigeons congregate at my bedroom window.

    Birds know stuff.

  148. Princess - or MacShane, who really does seem to have an obsession with "sex slaves"!

  149. Habib!

    Nah. Everbody makes mistakes (as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin...)

    I have always had a lot of time for you as a poster. And Hermione too. You are more than welcome as far as I am concerned. Nice to see you! :o)

  150. Oh, and I agree that birds know stuff. The term "bird brained" is far from the truth.

    I used to keep cockatiels when I were a lass. Incredible how they each had their own very specific personality, but also how clever they were.

  151. Ooh - talking about CiF on the telly!

  152. Wozzis - can I get it on iPlayer?

  153. It's Dispatches on Channel 4 - you can download the 4 On Demand player, I think, and it is bound to be on there. A bit bloaty though, as I recall.

  154. Come on Habib - join the fray. We'll be back when Dispatches is over. (its the adverts now) Cifwatch and the graun got a mention with contributions from Rusbridger.

  155. 3potato4 - are you there? they're talking about cifwatch on Dispatches...

  156. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/4od

  157. Heyhabib how great to see you my friend!

    Hank- I only have a few weeks to go no more than 5 as a max.(I am not to die quite yet)

    My dearest and closet male friend and I met about this time last year.It was a bit later than this to be true- more like mid Dec

    but then he said - I am to die soon. The fucking wanker took the breath from my sentence.

    and then the twat said you will have to get used to drinking for two

    I have only a few weeks to go for then my honour and our year will be up

    He was best man at my wedding

  158. Good evening, heyhabib, and welcome. It will not have escaped your notice that I recently called you a 'prick' and a 'hypocrite'. I was obviously referring to your behaviour rather than to you as a person, so I won't be apologizing for that. However, you seem like a decent bloke with something interesting to offer, so I hope you'll stick around and join in the fun.

    PS. It would help our carefully-cultivated image if you could confirm that you were a crack-whore, alcoholic or wife-beater . Don't suppose you can help us out there?

  159. Meh - iPlayer listing something else as "on now" on BBC4.

  160. I promise my hon grandkids some fine yarns of my best man

  161. Channel 4, thaum

    See linky: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/4od

  162. thauma - it is on the channel 4 site - 4 on demand. Or should be. It might be that it is not up there till tomorrow or something but they do put most of their progs on there. It is a bit tricky to get to the bit that is the actual on demand bit (well i find but I am technologically challenged) but you can normally then load it and watch it. It has annoying ads on though!

    If you cant find it online then I have recorded it. You have my email so you can always drop me a line and I can put it on a disc for you.

  163. thauma, just saw your post. I've not got a telly either. Let's spin some choons instead. Since it's Tolerance Day, we'll go a bit hippy-dippy. Love and peace, man:

    bang on the ear

  164. I dont think it is available in real time, though - i think it will be on after the transmission has finished.

  165. Thanks for link, BB, but the latest version I see is for 26 Oct. Segment is prob over by now anyway. :-(

    Deano - sorry to hear about your friend. Hope you have been honouring your promise to him. That'll also keep you up in the alcoholic stakes as a member of the UT. ;-)

  166. Deano

    There is something about losing a friend that is so deeply shocking to the soul. My best wishes.

  167. The day some of you lot get into tolerance I'll eat my tinfoil hat... at least MF admits he's not into it...

  168. thaumaturge - if you have Sky it's on C4+1 now, channel 135

  169. Bah, think you are right and not avail until over - will look again later (well, prob tomorrow).

    Scherf - quality tune; am enjoying it now!

  170. shaz
    dont watch tv ever
    not in england
    only visited cifwatch once to watch berchie in action
    have exhausted all my be angry at israel outrage
    head /wall/bang/ stop
    its an arguement i have run away from cos i am
    stupid/ chicken/ pragmatic/ selective/despicable
    Montana,,i just dont fit your new strapline at top of page,,the old one was a perfect fit for me,,

  171. Thanks Shaz & welcome - unfortunately I don't have a telly let alone Sky.

  172. Jay, if you're still around

    Can't believe EllyMiranda is trotting out that bit of arse gravy that BTH was spouting for so long.

    What is the matter with people? Why can't they actually read the posts for themselves instead of requoting the lies?

    Makes me seethe, I have to say.

  173. "at least MF admits he's not into it..."

    Well I'd hate to be thought a hypocrite.

    Got no issues with a day of apologies, btw...

    Or even a day of "fuck me, was I ever wrong"

  174. Stephen William Tasker was my best man

    He could at an half wink command a County. He was a very fine man.

  175. re Dispatches - cifwatch already on their case
    As Robin Shepherd points out, the fact that Oborne and James say “It is important to say what we did not find – there is no conspiracy, and nothing resembling a conspiracy” indicates beyond question that a conspiracy theory is precisely what they ARE peddling.

    Dispatches journalists ramp up their stitchup

  176. A New Year's resolution from James Agate:

    To tolerate fools more gladly, provided this does not encourage them to take up more of my time.

    That gives me about another 7 weeks, and then I'll think about it.

  177. kizzizle, fo shizzle!

    Don't eat your tinfoil hat. It will play havoc with your fillings! Ouchie!

  178. The Pogues go Spanish (poor quality sound - qué lástima).

    and an, er, interesting interview with Shane.

  179. Sheff - didn't take them long, did it?

    I loved Rabbi David Goldberg on the show, btw. What a lovely man. And what a shame he is vilified as being, in his own words, "another anti-zionist self-hating Jew". Sigh.

  180. “It is important to say what we did not find – there is no conspiracy, and nothing resembling a conspiracy

    of course not ,,its obviously just a duck,,quack
    quack,,looks like a french duck,,

  181. BB

    Poor old Elly needs something to say, even if its a patent whopper from BTH...

  182. MF

    Tolerance doesn't do it for me either, as I said the other day. I want a day of Transcendance. :o)

  183. kiz

    Was trying hard to be tolerant all day but the Mcshane thread did for me I'm afraid.

  184. BB - isn't it EllyMiranda who was trying to convince us all that the hymen doesn't exist and that the Cern project was going to suck us all into a black hole?

  185. wrong about what mf? sticking up for people who are getting stick for just being... not how everyone thinks is cool.. or because they snap and turn nasty back?
    it's ok beebs.. don't think I'm in any danger of having to eat it just as yet...

  186. 3p4

    Duck in french is "canard". Which can, as well as being a duck, also be a tabloid newspaper or a fib. Quite fitting.

    (Or a piece of sugar you dip in alcohol before eating it.)

  187. BB - agree utterly with your comment about Rabbi David Goldberg. Principled and intelligent.

  188. Mm, I had a lovely roast duck last Sunday.

    *thinking of stomach as usual*

  189. Thuma _ I hope you will book a day off and join me and BB and the Sheff girls in the new year when we meet.

    I assume Annetan will join us too

  190. Keep your chin up, deano. And make sure you meet up with him for at least one last drink.

    Dispatches was a bit of a damp squib, tbh, thauma. Didn't miss much.