17 November 2009

Daily Chat 17/11/09

Elizabeth I became Queen of England in 1558.  The Suez Canal was inaugurated in 1869.  Nine Czech students were executed, 1200 were sent to concentration camps, and Czech universities were closed in 1939 for anti-Nazi demonstrations.  Tenzin Gyatso became the 14th Dalai Lama at the age of 15 in 1950.  And in 1989, riot police suppressed a student demonstration in Prague, sparking the Velvet Revolution.

Born today:  F.A. Möbius (1790-1868), Rock Hudson (1925-1985), Peter Cook (1937-1995), Gordon Lightfoot (1938), Auberon Waugh (1939-2001), Martin Scorsese (1942) and Jonathan Ross (1960)

It is International Students' Day.


  1. You fill me with inertia.

    I've got some responses/comments from Monday's thread (especially for Leni, but for some reason it's been hurting my eyes to look at the screen as I've been getting this post ready to go. I'll try to get home straight after work, while most of you are still awake. Except Thauma -- she's a light-weight. Catch you Wednesday, Thauma -- it's an early out day.

  2. F.A. Möbius
    Rock Hudson
    Peter Cook
    Gordon Lightfoot
    Auberon Waugh
    Martin Scorsese
    and Jonathan Ross

    i cant help but think there must be a really good joke in that list somewhere,,

    like Peter Cook and joanthan ross as contrast,,powerful,, Scorcese and Hudson
    Lightfoot and Waugh,, the other guy ,,he's just twisted ,,always compares to himself

  3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0DqPSF2fyo

    gordon,, edmund fitzgerald

  4. 323 comments. I am going to write to a certain company today requesting sponsorship of the site.

  5. Just want to let BB know that I wil be using:

    Everybody makes mistakes (as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin...)

    Also, following on from the McShane thread - a bit ago, after another one of the many many articles about it, I tried organising my conflicted ideas into some form of order. Not sure if I managed it, but for what it's worth:


  6. HI Phillipa

    Good blog, good writing, nice to see someone setting their views in black and white and actually working through them themselves. Good stuff.

    In order:

    The drug dependency argument links to a wider point, is any choice really "free"? are choices free or not free, or is it a spectrum? I think we'd have to say spectrum. In which case where do you draw the line. And if drug dependency were grounds for criminalising the work then we'd have a lot of laws to pass.

    Historical roles of women - i think its a bit of a hard sell to say women feel pressures to become prostitutes because of historical roles, especially when they cans ee 99.9% of women do work that isnt sex work. Also, some men do sex work, they have no such historical pressure.

    Emotional impact - fair point, but it will be subjective, different for each person. Again, if we criminalised work we believed cause emotional harm we'd have a lot of jobs to criminalise.

    Harms women in general by perpetuating views - plausible on the surface but looking around the world the societies most liberal on sex etc almost always tend to be the ones where women have most equality, so empirically i think it struggles.

    But interesting stuff, good arguments, and nicely set out, better than most of the guff the graun prints ATL...

  7. Jay - thanks. Given the 'spectrum' argument, I often feel that while thoughts can be put in 'black and white', the arguments themselves can't be so clearly defined.

    The 'historical role' point is less about actual roles / work undertaken, and a sense of 'values' coming from the past. That women were seen as second-class citizens, their sexuality seen as subordinate to mans's (or potentially dangerous), and that they could be 'owned' - passed from father's control to husband's control. So while I don't know if I go along with it completely, there's an argument that there's an idea of 'worthlessness' in real terms (but 'worth' in financial terms)...

    And as (I believe - have no stats) that most men working as prostitutes (rather than in porn) are gay, there are similar historical disparagements of homosexuality that could lead to similar ideas of the 'worthlessness' of the body / sexuality.

    In both cases, perhaps if something 'doesn't matter' maybe it's easier to rationalise selling it, while people who value their body/soul wouldn't consider that a reasonable trade-off?

    Anyway - I didn't get stuck in to the thread as I am still conflicted about the principles, and don't know enough about the practice. I think Princess on the former and MsChin on the latter were where my conclusion (woolly as it is) would arrive, but the whole debate was very interesting.

  8. Right on cue, Tanya Gold on prostitution over on CiF ..

  9. Oh god... I'd suggest a flash mob, but that might be misinterpreted

  10. OK, actually, have read it and am impressed.

    Now - have to fight with the bank and NI people. Wish me luck...

  11. "PhilippaB said...

    Just want to let BB know that I wil be using:

    Everybody makes mistakes (as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin...)"


  12. Did anyone see Life last night? I knew about the monarch butterfly migration to Mexico, but not that it was only every fourth generation that made it, which begs the "how do they do it?" question, again.

  13. the other three generations are saving up for the tickets?


  14. Philippa

    I dont know the stats for the homo stuff but if we apply Occams razor, rather than historically based social pressures isnt it more likely that gay men and women make up most sex workers because most demand comes from men?

    If there were hundreds of thousands of women willing to pay for sex i think you'd see blokes increasingly getting in on the act. In poorer countries where western women tour for male sex workers loads of the men there do it and largely without stigma.

  15. otterel

    Yes I watched Life - had similar wonderments about the Monarchs. Current thoughts - very unscientific - a Spirit of Place ! Some wonderful beetles. The string and wire mechanics of the team impressed me too.

    Two full hours of TV viewing - unusual for me - both thought provoking.

  16. Philippa

    You given it a lot of thought. I think there are cases of little or no choice - poverty robs us of many and often all freedoms. At an immediate level of need there is also the matter of avaiable and economically viable skills.

    Some traditions hold the idea of the 'good woman' - my lady wife - as opposed to the woman who is there to be used. The unskilled men who fell into this category could be quite legitimately worked to death as labourers. When thieves could be hanged was it a choice made in freedom to steal to keep yourself alive ?

    The problem with prostitution is that it is also tied in with the idea of moral horror - like alcohol - think moral/religious campaigns and 'God told me to do it' murders of girls and women. There are those in any society who need to feel a strong sense of moral outrage and self righteousness to keep them going. It will always be a confused debate.

    George Gissing - who wrote very sympathetically about victorian women - is said to have had several relationships with prostitutes (married one ) in attempt to save them.

  17. Jay - aye, demand has a lot to do with it - wonder if anyone has stats for lesbian prostitution? (kidding - can just imagine the thread if somebody has!)

    Leni - good point on the 'equivalence' of exploitation, either historically here, or currently elsewhere - I suppose when that equivalence is a historical situation (rather than a current 'general' desperation) maybe we should be asking, how come we did something about kids working in mills and labourers being worked to death but not about prostitution?

    Although maybe one could then come back that its the 'detail' of the general exploitation (working conditions, safety, payment) that has changed and that applies to prostitution as well...i.e. that there is still exploitation it's just not as bad as it was. But I'm not sure if that holds water for prostitution.

    Anyway - typing aloud. hate the French NI system.

  18. Leni,

    Yep, the whole thing (Life) was spectacular, I especially liked the underwater shots of damselflies laying their eggs. I also recognised an ex-colleague's name on the credits!

  19. Sorry folks, just heard back, Heinz wont advertise on this blog. I asked them as we were Rusks fans, they now own Farleys.

    I tried...

  20. leni - poverty robs us of many and often all freedoms.

    Yes, it can do, yet it grants others. As Bob Dylan sang, "when you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose". So you are free of the need to watch out for robbers (legal or not). If you are on benefit, you are free from wage slavery and have loads of time to do what you want to. Earning money, hanging on to it and spending it is time consuming and the more you have, the greater the pressure.

    I'm not writing about absolute poverty, when you haven't enough food or a roof over your head, I'm thinking of poverty as defined by the govt which is relative.

    It depends on your attitude to life. If spending money is your number one goal then you will be constrained. But if it isn't, then poverty can provide untold opportunities.

  21. Jay,

    Can't say I'm sorry, I'd've had to ask them to refrain from showing pictures of baked beans anyway, horrible things!

  22. Jay,

    I am confused or is BTH arguing against his normal position?

    I am leaving that thread alone for a bit - it is making my head spin!

    The thing is - I can see where you are coming from but I also think my own view is valid (obviously or I would not argue it :) ) But I do think those that keep saying if we clean it up there wont be the injuries etc are wrong. Not true - I looked into it a bit last night after mc chins comment (as much as I could bear to) and the injuries are not necessarily from violence. A woman could work in a decent parlour with no violence but 'servicing' 10+ men a day, in and of itself, could cause some serious injuries and health problems.

    Then add into that the disease aspect. Did anyone on here ever watch that documentary a while ago - about women working as pro's on some holiday island. These guys would fly over for a week and hire a 'girlfriend' for a week. Well it was stomach churning. One girl really didn't want to be with this guy because he was very unclean (I also think if I remember rightly he had a raging case of warts) but the owner just kept telling her she had to. Not good, not nice and in no way comparable to selling apples!

    Bad luck on the Heinz front. I like chocolate - why don't we try Cadbury's?

  23. Dotterel

    The wonder of modern technology. The mechanics of insects - delicate but immensely strong joints - now so easily shown increases my sense of Awe - as do hubble shots.

  24. Just want to add one other thing re the prostitution front. I am not saying making it illegal is the definitive answer - I am not so cut and dried in what I think the answer is. But I do think we should stop trying to make out it is like any other service industry and that if made legal and above board it would be like any other service industry - it wouldn't.

    I suppose my ultimate dream is that we could educate men (and the women starting to use escorts now too) that this is not really 'a good thing' and hope that they did not see buying sex as something they just have a right to. And that we could change society in a way so that it doesn't really occur - mostly because no one ever has to be desperate enough to sell sex.

    Cant see that happening in my lifetime though.

    Philippa - read the stuff on your blog a while ago - interesting and agree with you on a lot of it. Good stuff. : )

  25. Hermit

    Poverty is comparative and we all have our own definitions. One of my happiest periods was when I was at the height of my poverty. Depends what we want from life - this can be conditioned by our own and others expectations as well as our life view.

    I have split modes of being - can be a hermit quite happily or gregarious in right company. Talking to Dogge is good as is sitting on hillside watching ants.

  26. AllyF has just posted a stonking link to a guide to online posters site

    It's most amusing.

  27. PCC, i dont think your arguments are invalid, either technically or generally, at all. I empathise with the arguments, i really do, but on balance I disagree. I think regulation would be the most effective way of reducing harm to the victims. Prohibition doesnt work. I dont know how many times society can fail to learn this lesson. When both parties "consent", it does not work, not for sex, drugs, drink etc.

    10 men a day could clearly cause harm without violence. So regulate, max number per day, 2, 3, etc, medically dictate what is acceptable there.

    There is no 100% solution, there will always be violence, seediness, drugs, unpleasantness, horror stories, deaths, etc, but in the real world it is not something that will ever go away, it even goes on the bloody animal kingdom.

    A bit of pragmatism is needed. Whats the main problem - the womens welfare. Which solution most reduces that harm - regulation. Do we have another option that gets rid of the trade entirely, making regulation redundanct? No, nor has any society in the history of mankind.

  28. And here is the best description of MoveanyMountain I've seen (Bitterweed's decription a few days ago notwithstanding)

  29. Leni,

    Indeed, I find myself thinking "I hope they show us how they got this shot in the bit at the end" for almost every shot!

  30. AllyF's link is genius...

    Jay / Princess - I think part of my confused response to the topic is that thinking about it 'in principle' (my default setting for starters) cannot deal with the reality. Prostitution is already a legal grey area, given the 'everything but the idea is illegal' approach, as continued by the recent changes. Because I think we all know that making something illegal won't stop it, just make it even worse. So while hating myself in principle terms, I think I would on balance support legislation / regulation as the lesser of two evils.

    While still hanging onto the 'ultimate dream', like princess, that it could be 'socialised' out of existence.

    Although legalisation could increase normalisation could make the dream still more unattainable...etc.

    I think it comes down to - who is getting hurt at the minute and how can we best help them? And the answer to that, sadly, seems to be legalisation.

    Anyway. Eagle Scout salute to you both.

  31. PhilippaB

    Thank you, that was a very eloquent description of my position on the topic!

    (My inability to put it so eloquently being the reason why I have so far stayed out of the debate!)

  32. Hi Montana - yes, I'm a lightweight; I can't deny it. Hope to be getting my 4.5 in this evening, but should be around on Weds!

    Hi everyone else ... must dash ... bloody w*rk!

  33. Just to add my tuppenceworth to the whole prostitution debate.

    There is never going to be a time when a certain percentage of men won't pay for sex. Just as there will never be a time when a certain percentage of the population will not take drugs.

    Whether we like it or not it's part of the human condition.

    Inherent in both prostitution (buying and selling) and drug taking is risk. Government banning of both is as useful as howling at the moon, therefore the Governments job should be to manage and regulate to reduce the risk as much as possible. That is good governance.

    What is not good Governance is Government by Mail/Sun faux Victorian morality, the situation we have in both New Labour and the Conservatives.

    Criminalising = greater criminal involvement.

    You decriminalise and regulate, you reduce radically the criminal involvement in both areas.

  34. Great link, Duke (and Ally). Anyone brave enough to admit to which Warrior they think they are? And I DON'T mean telling anybody else who they are. That must remain unsaid.

    Having said that, who is this (non-UT) doughty swordsman:

    Archivist saves and squirrels away each and every discussion forum message. Do you remember having a bad day back in 1996 when in one of your messages you may have said a few things that were...well, perhaps a little...hasty? Don't worry, Archivist still has it and will post it to the forum if you begin to get the upper hand in battle. Archivist can be a very effective and fearsome Warrior.

  35. I don't know scherf, where is it that bears do their business again?

  36. Scherf - that was my first thought on seeing the "archivist", great link Duke/Ally, classic site. Will have a full read at home, getting grief from boss.

    Who's going first then?

  37. Jay,

    I think a new one for me would have to be the ''Robespierre'':

    The sea green incorruptible, virtuous and ascetic with a strong set of moral values in all his posts.

    But if you disagree with me you'll be up at the Committee of Public Safety and guillotined.

  38. Sorry Jay, don't have time to read them all.

    I will state here and now though that I don't mind and won't be offended or bear a grudge if anyone wants to pick one for me (although I reserve the right to calmly refute!)

  39. I think that Philippa has already grabbed the Eagle Scout. Have you, PB?

  40. One word of warning on this bit of fun and games, knowing this place, we could easily ignite world war 3. So lets be extra dainty in our handling...

  41. Great link from the divine Ally - Ally should be there also, smiling disdainfully as he strokes his ginger nuts. I suggest Laughing Cavalier.

    Funnily enough, I'm not there, at least I don't see a Jim Baxter juggling an old leather ball.

    Have found a pic of MAM leading a crowd of average Cifers -


  42. Hehe, I'm not Typhoid Mary, but a friend of mine is. Drives me proper bananas and is responsible for me getting all sorts of spam (really, thank you very much for adding my e-mail address to the kindly on-line free service for e-birthday cards!).

  43. Oh and Phillipa like your blog

  44. I baggsies Big Cat. (Jay, I hope you're not trying to provoke me with your loose talk of WW3. That could never happen here anyway.)

  45. "What in the hell is hey talking about, anyway?"
    I guess that makes me "Bong".
    Admit it, though there's bits of all the different warrior types in most of us. Time to skin up.

  46. Can we have hybrids? E.g. "Evil Bong".

    Funny link 13th Duke / Ally....

  47. Very true, heyhabib, although I was struck by how some descriptions were absolutely perfect for certain Cif posters. No names mentioned, obviously, in order to protect the guilty.

  48. Bitterweed, if we're going for hybrids, I've become a Douglas Adams character - Sycophant EgoBong. Nice ring to it.

  49. Yup, if we're going for hybrids I'd add a touch of weenie to scherf's suggestion from 14.23....

  50. I think I am probably an Eagle Scout, unless anyone wants to burst that particular bubble. In which case I will flick my woggle at you.

    Jeez.... you ever have a day when you screw something up really badly, but fortunately somebody spots it, and you get that funny 'missed step on a staircase' feeling when you think that you could have sent it to a client? And then have to think of a creative way to cover up the resultant mess...or just come clean...

    I need wine. And biscuits.

    But mainly wine.

  51. Good spot, Dot. That does fit. Coincidentally, I was amused to see this comment directed to our mutual friend on Cif by a female poster:

    This is one of the most sexist things I have seen written in a while and I have been moved to comment for the first time. You obviously have a low view of women, hinting as you do that women use sex to advance their careers. All women are whores.

    That must have totally freaked him out.

  52. "Sycophant EgoBong"
    Most excellent. I'm having a wail of a time here with that link... at my own expense, ha ha.

  53. ooh, dear, think i might be a bit pinko as well...

  54. and something of a weenie.


  55. What was his response Scherf?

    (and does this make me "me too" to your "big dog"?!;-))

  56. Dot, as the comment was from a first-time poster, and no archive of past comments was available, some 7 hours later there is still no response to this vicious attack on his feminist credentials.

    btw, if heyhabib is going to be a superhybrid like SycophantEgoBong, we're going to have to team up just to get a word in edgeways.

  57. Scherf,

    Of course, Archivists nemesis: Newbie!

  58. heh heh - so should I make good on my plan to appear as 'toxicshock' using the card-business email as sign-up?

    am bored being a scout...even a pinko weenie scout...

  59. Re recent 'Brideshead Revisited' discussion - adaptation currently on BBC Radio 7:


  60. Here's a crazy way-out idea. Some weekend evening we could do an Untrusted version of one of those murder-mystery weekends where people are allocated characters. Each poster would be secretly allocated a persona from the Flame Warrior Roster and would have to post in that style. First person to guess, say, 5 personae correctly wins something useless.

  61. scherf - great stuff! and a good way for new identities to be tried out in a safe environment, no doubt!

  62. Like it scherf, but someone would have to do the allocating and therefore be out of the game?

  63. Dot, if enough people want to do it, I'll allocate the identities. It should be good enough fun just reading it. Of course, contestants will have to be convincing in the persona whilst not so obvious as to be spotted straight away. Could be quite tricky.

  64. scherf, I was thinking that, how about there being a forfeit for being spotted first, or last?

  65. Like the idea of the game but would we have to register under our assigned Alias?

  66. Obviously not Leni you upsidedown idiot.

  67. Scherf,

    interesting idea.

    The only issue being if we have it on a Friday night it will end up like the last scene of reservoir Dogs with everyone pointing guns at each other screaming before the inevitable bloodbath.

    If it does go ahead, can Edwin or I being Glaswegians shout:

    Thurr's been a Murdurrr

    in a Taggart stylee?

    Although from what I gather Edwin is posh being from the West End and will have a Kelvinside accent which doesn't work well doing Taggart.

    Is that true Edwin?

  68. I only have access some weekends so if it were one I wasn't around I could do the allocating, leave you all to it, then come back to laugh at the results/mop up the blood on Monday?

  69. Dot, the allocator would have to folllow the thread, for obvious reasons. You haven't thought that through, have you?

  70. Nope, oh well, at least I get to use this:

    Everybody makes mistakes (as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin...)!

  71. Duke, people would have to stay in character (or be disqualified). An interesting possibility, of course, is to cast 'against type'. That would be fun.

  72. Evening all

    Have been envious all day because although I can read everything I can't post at work and you've all been having such a good time.

    scherf - murder-mystery weekend? great idea, count me in.

    Ally's link (thanks your Grace) is hilarious; I had a browse through in some downtime this afternoon. Think I'm a hybrid of Toxic Granny, Cyber sisters and Rebel Without a Cause as having a deep seated and (probably) totally infantile hostility towards authority seems pretty true of me.

  73. Evening all.

    Just in after failing miserable to prevent a 16 yr old going into Feltham for 18 months for dealing crack. Can't think why the Judge didn't believe him when he said he found a bag with 24 wraps of class A and a wodge of money in it... ah well...

    No work to do tonight though \0/

    Feet up - glass of Pinot Grigio Gris in hand. (Although the best Gris you can get is Moroccan. Can't seem to find it here, but Pip, if you are ever having a couscous, Gris de Boulaouane is the canine's testicles).

    Gonna check out and see what flame warrior I am...

  74. "An interesting possibility, of course, is to cast 'against type'. That would be fun."

    I am like, so totally in dude...

  75. Scherf, great idea! (Think that makes me either Sychophant or Me-Too?)

  76. Ah no, the Me-Too was the one who's always had the exact same experience under discussion, I think. Hm, there's one poster who's struck me that way but I'm not saying who.

  77. sherfig

    Cast against type - that means someone would have to type us first. I see trouble ahead. Though yes 'twould be more of a challenge.

  78. Leni, it's not quite as Freudian or sinister as it might sound, and obviously couldn't/wouldn't apply to everyone (or perhaps anyone). It's just supposed to be fun.

  79. scherf - you will have to exercise real skill allocating characters. And Leni I agree it could be a bit of a minefield. But if we give scherf a bit of slack and accept the character we get, it could be good fun.

    Would we need some ground rules ie whatever ever goes on/is said in the game must stay there?

  80. God, I have multiple personality disorder. I can see bits of me in at least half a dozen of those descriptions. !

  81. Pinko is prolly the nearest though.

  82. Just scrolled back to see what you were talking aobut and, yes, I think that is a fab idea! :D

  83. Bitterweed
    "I'm having a wail of a time here with that link... at my own expense, ha ha."
    It can drain the coffers somewhat, lend me 10p? I'll give at least twenty more thoughts.

  84. good to see englishhermit drop by for a butchers
    and a post,,hope you like the place and join in here hermit,,you and deano will probably get along great,,you may even be like me and have a little jealousy for his situation,,or perhaps i should say an appreciation of his (real) wealth,,

    re the charades,role play blogger archetype there could also be some good milage in taking one simple point of view,,and rewriting it many times in all sorts of different personas,,

    digestive or jaffa ?,, jaffa ,,cake or biscuit?

    as written by the various stylists,,

  85. Sherfig

    If we had characters diametrically opposed to habitual posting stance it could cause a rethink. We may all return to Cif condemning all we have supported and embracing everything we loathe.

  86. Leni, I note that some of the archetypes are, shall we say, not of a left-wing persuasion. Posting such views would be anathema to most people here, and perhaps even cathartic. After a few hours in character we'd have folk here rushing off to Cif to hurl abuse at Seumas Milne. :o)

  87. i think i am

    a lurker,, mostly
    bliss ninny
    coffee klatch
    occasional grunter
    more loopy

    actually i aspire to being an AllyF,,

  88. So it's come to this..?

    Well I'm gonna stand tall and aloof like some kinda 20 foot pitbull.

    This is bad...bad as CIF bingo...that attempt to make us all self-conscious about posting righteous, 'obligatory' responses to the half-cocked bullshit and self-serving vanity screeds put out by CIF..."Ooooh I better not call Polly a retard or people will shout bingo and I'll look like some sad walking cliche"

    I'm retreating further into type out of protest. Bad news for 3p4 no doubt, who I'm nominating as Kilgore Trout...(by no means an insult btw).

  89. monkeyfish

    "So it's come to this?"

    What. Are. You. Smoking.

  90. "Life is no way to treat an animal."
    "The usual"

    in vancouver we have the exceptional,,everywhere,,all the time,,

  91. MF

    You would be able to use a whole new vocabulary - pacific and soothing words would spill from your fingers like honey from a comb.


  92. LOL leni

    All those in favour of MF being given the role of Crybaby or Nanny say "Aye". O/

    I would have a bash at being Capitalistic or the Wimminz one (cant remember the name of that one) for a laugh.

  93. 3p4

    I thought it was...

    #"We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane."

    This is the epitaph on the monument built for Trout after he died. It is "a quotation from his last novel, his two-hundred-and-ninth novel, which was unfinished when he died." After Dwayne Hoover went to the asylum, Trout became obsessed with the the notion that ideas can cause disease, as well as cure it. At first he was just "a dirty old man," but soon his ideas were taken seriously by artists and scientists alike.#

    ..some dispute over his epitaph..

    Anyway, I was thinking more of..

    #"What is the purpose of life?"

    Trout sees this message written on the tiled wall of the pornographic movie house on Forty-Second Street. He cannot write a response because he has no writing utensil, but wants to write:

    "To be the eyes and ears and conscience of the Creator of the Universe, you fool."#

    That's you in a nutshell isn't it?

    Plenty of superskunk in Vancouver eh? Didn't know that.


    Or like humility from a derivatives trader.

    Actually... I'm pretty handy at playing against type especially peace loving, healing liberal types..but I only ever do so for nefarious purposes...never for simple diversion aor amusement: it's a deadly serious business to me.

  94. I'm drinking wine too quickly and getting lairy.

    I just told someone on the BNP thread I would rather have a frontal lobotomy and turn into them than I would vote vote the BNP.

    Instant mod.

    My true mouthy streak comes out when I have had a couple. Perhaps I should be like George Carmen and go into court blind drunk every day.

  95. Kilgore Trout has part of his right ring finger bitten off by the book's other main character, Dwayne Hoover,

    so i just tried writing an out of character response to MF based on that wiki snippet,,shit that is a great moniker "wikisnippet" ,, anyway,,i tried to do some kind ofbitingwitservedonabedofsarcasticinsightwrittenwithflair as if i were a "duelist" and i confirmed
    that i am often a "loopy"in fact my own niche of "loopy" aptly for this day,,i am a "mobious loopy" and find it hard to exclude the influence of the "bliss ninny"

  96. I'm drinking wine too quickly and getting lairy.

    I just told someone on the BNP thread I would rather have a frontal lobotomy

    i would rather have a bottle in front of me than have a prefrontal lobotomy

    ka ching

  97. Plenty of superskunk in Vancouver eh? Didn't know that

    its the biggest crop in the province,,place is awash with it,,every imaginable color/variety and a thousand exotic names for different strains,,its the biggest crop in the province

    there is a legal store 4 blocks away,,needs docs note,,
    "To be the eyes and ears and conscience of the Creator of the Universe, you fool."#

    well i only say "idiot" and never "fool"

    "To use the eyes and ears and conscience of the roots of the species, Grasshopper"

    #"What is the purpose of life?"

    live food stays fresh ?
    Go To It Lurker = kilgore trout

    #"What is the purpose of life?"

    my serious answer is "sharing"

  98. Oh I am irrevocably middle class your Grace. I am well chuffed with the Waitrose in Byres Rd!

    You might have seen me in Taggart, incidentally, playing cards or being a drunk and trying not to bump into Blythe Duff (I did nearly bump into Alex Norton at the George MacDonald Fraser memorial but that's another boring tale).

    That's my persona: MURDERPOLIS, the pissed poster who stutters and says 'Look it's a boady! The game's a bogey!'

  99. there is a lot goes through my mind that i would love to address to you MonkeyFish after reading your posts above,, but "loopy" is not something
    i can escape no matter how much i want to write
    more transparently,,

    you (et al) made a number of points over the weekend which gave me great pause for thought,,
    and i would like to visit some of them now as expansion on "what i am all over" or rather "what i am over all" or even "what i am overall" and of course todays biggie "overall,what am i ?"

  100. Actually (says the Pissed Poster) thats the jarring thing about the list of personas - haven't looked at them all but Bong seems to be the only one off his face, whereas surely most of us by now are scrabbling for the cheap Co-op Sicilian at the back of the cupboard (the bottle I mean).

    As the Bard almost said, I prithee, remember the poster, night all.

  101. Breakfast of Champions
    Vonnegut: ''Trout was the only character I ever created who had enough imagination to suspect that he might be the creation of another human being.

    fuck me sideways,,

  102. BB - 'I just told someone on the BNP thread I would rather have a frontal lobotomy and turn into them than I would vote vote the BNP.'

    Sounds eminently reasonable to me.

    Sounds like you've had the day from hell. One of my class (aged 10) has just come back to school
    after his mother tried to commit suicide in front of him.

    Kind of puts things into perspective.

  103. Cracking link by Ally. I'm a big pink dog I think. Stick it on the UT2 so it doesn't interfere with the usual traffic, scherfig, and those who want to play, can do so.

  104. "'Trout was the only character I ever created who had enough imagination to suspect that he might be the creation of another human being."

    You know of any others?

  105. I love it - all of this for a shilling.

  106. God, Shaz, that is bloody terrible. How do you cope with that?

    The lad I was repping today comes from a very impoverished family of 8 children and has an IQ of 62 - but for some reason the London Borough responsible for him felt that, even though he was being bullied at school, and they couldn't find alternative education for him, he didn't warrant being statemented. No wonder he is on crack...

  107. Is that you hiding behind there, deano? I can see you! :o)

  108. BB - don't get me started on the statement issue, it's a disaster...

    ...am still trying to find my flame warrior type

  109. I do like that 3p4 it's the way he/she leans against the language.

    You guys heard what is on at York Minister mid November.....

  110. dont understand the question ?
    other kinds of human (created differently)
    or other commenters on the concept( man dreaming butterfly,,butterfly dreaming man)

    Zhūangzi (c. 369 BC - c. 286 BC), literally Master Zhuang, was a Chinese philosopher, who is supposed to have lived during the Warring States Period, corresponding to the Hundred Schools of Thought. His name is also transliterated as Zhuang Zi, Zhuang Zhou, Chuang Tzu, Chuang Tse and Chuang Chou

  111. oh yeah clarity,,

    f*** me sideways=

    oh woww cool,, no really

    epiphany deja vue

    revelation (due
    to time and place)
    in the particular
    presentation of a complex concept

    nice one kurt
    better one kilgore
    thank you MF

  112. Hi all


    Do you mean the Messiah on the 21st?

  113. Don't you remember the daffy duck cartoon where he turns to the screen and tells the cartoonist to stop taking the piss? A big pencil with an eraser on the end drops onto the screen and rubs out the rabbit ears he's been drawn with.

  114. if your last comment was to me MF i am totally lost,,and my database for screen bound references
    is absolutely miniscule,,close to non existent,,
    except for 60s bbc,,

    if it wasn't,, then i am just hopelessly confused

  115. He's a creation who achieves such a level of self awareness that he starts to interact and react against his 'author' / creator.

    I'm sure this happens. I think I've seen it happen with various pseudonyms on the internet...not suggesting you 3p4...or me!..(although it's always a good idea to check periodically) but I'm pretty sure it happens. Sometimes the character becomes so 'real' that it achieves a kind of emancipation...a 'soul' even...generally a malevolent one..not sure it's a good thing.

  116. Def - if I can't get a seat I will be in a street nearby.

  117. Everyone - think I am reaching Bong state - am listening to side B of "Heroes", have had several glasses of good wine, some excellent company for the evening....

    Off to bed now before anyone wrecks my mood. :-)

  118. d

    The seats are sold out, looking at the website. There are still tickets for the side aisle (no view but who cares), for a tenner. Suggest you snap one up on-line now.

  119. "the purpose of a man is to ... luuuuurve a woman
    and the purpose of a woman is to luuuurve a man"

    BB - 62? fuck me. life's way of saying that somebody else should be taking care of him

    Shaz - ditto on the 'doing what you can while others walk on by' front. Good vibes....

    My apologies, am v drunk now - snakes on a plane dubbed into french is currently in the background.

    Ah, me.

  120. Fuck it Chin - looks like I'm in the street. Cannot get the Minster site to have me.

    The bastards I have money and they won't have me.

  121. ok possums

    Time I was in bed

    Night night xx

  122. d

    Maybe you can pay on the door? Would've thought there'd be plenty of room in side the place!

  123. This comment has been removed by the author.

  124. I'm sure this happens. I think I've seen it happen with various pseudonyms on the internet...not suggesting you 3p4...or me!.

    i'll trust you,,you trust me.. we won't need the disclaimers anymore,,
    (although it's always a good idea to check periodically)

    thats where a village comes in useful

    but I'm pretty sure it happens. Sometimes the character becomes so 'real' that it achieves a kind of emancipation...a 'soul' even...generally a malevolent one..not sure it's a good thing

    are you familiar with Pietha,, on the religion threads ? very interesting read over two years,,

    reading ones own archives is always scary,,surprising,, disappointing,, confirming,, shattering,,empowering,,

    archives and diaries are where we become our own village,, and all the trash you have to pick up was dropped by you,,

  125. Oh, crap. I suspect I am a Lurker/Philosopher/Rebel Without a Clue. Not much future in that.

  126. on epesodic self appraisal

    my original previous monicker archive is utterly different from my current trove,,

    in your face,,paragraph fisking,,line by line,,piss taking,,logic misunderburnishment,,
    dismissive,, popular with others readers but utterly childish from later perspectives,,
    it was cathartic though to get at all the cognitive dissonace society had marinaded me in from birth vis a vis religion god values

    had the same kind of passage through another niche blog on the poetry threads but the first cycle takes a long time to see/look for but subsequent cycles we see quicker,,

    know doubt the same thing is happening to me oops

    no doubt i am doing the same thing here,,

  127. It was the 11th of Decemeber when I last saw Steve.

    I'll be back on the 11th.

  128. He knew that him and me would never meet again. I really really miss him

  129. see you later deano30,,may your winter turn to spring within,,