19 November 2009

Daily Chat 19/11/09

Abraham Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address during the dedication of a cemetery for the soldiers lost in that battle.  (Lincoln can be seen almost exactly in the middle of the photograph.  He appears to be looking down to his right.)  In 1969, Pelé scored his 1000th goal on a penalty kick during a match between Santos and Vasco da Gama.  Anwar Sadat became the first Arab leader to make an official visit to Israel in 1977.

Born today:  Indira Gandhi (1917-1987), Ofra Haza (1957-2000) and Jodie Foster (1962).

It is International Men's Day.


  1. Happy men's day from me too!

    Re yesterday's thread-

    heyhabib - "Perhaps someday, the hopes will be united and the fears exhausted"

    Great line - not in my lifetime I fear but one day...

    Hank thanks for the Costello clip - powerful song - brings it all back! I think if they give her a state funeral there could be a riot.

    Interesting how that delivery is so much more effective than a rant isn't it? Made me want to go out and punch someone and thats not usually me at all!

    Good agit prop really

  2. Montana,

    your mention of Mens International Day means your conversion to submission in the face of Partiarchical power is complete.

    What is involved in Mens day anyway?

    Are we allowed to keep the toilet seat up for a day?

    Walk about in our pants? Burp, drink beer and fart with no fear of retaliation from our better halves?

    I'm going to be laughed out the house when I tell the duchess about this.

  3. Happy Men's Day, to all my chromosomally-compromised comrades!

    Although - "International Men's Day" sounds more like a competition. The early rounds are regional, then you go through to the national finals, and they select the international team from that. His grace may be kidding when he made the suggestions above, but should be aware that Walking around in Pants, Burping, Drinking Beer and Farting are the first four events in the ModernMan Pentathlon...

  4. Duke

    You can read all about it here:

    International Mens Day

    You can even get a Know Your Balls wristband, although given men's propensity to omit reading the instructions first there may be a health & safety risk if this is used inappropriately.

  5. Got to wish the fellas a happy day before I trek off to work - burp, fart and scratch your balls all you like Your Grace and give my best to the Duchess.

  6. Today is also World Toilet Day, apparently. This is organised by the WTO. No, really...

    "World Toilet Organization (WTO) is a global non- profit organization committed to improving toilet and sanitation conditions worldwide."

  7. Fab link Ms Chin - those four guys look like Lisa Simpson's 'non-threatening boys' grown up, but why does one of them have an enormous blue and white ball?

    Haven't looked lately but I'm sure mine. . .

  8. The next step is a union between World Toilet Day and Blokeday

    The motto could be mens sana in corpore sano = men's bodies need sanitation

  9. I thought the "World Men's Day" was on November 3rd. Am confused now and will check my facts.

    However this fact-check will turn out, those four guys of the website contributing to the notion that to "sacrifice for others" is an integral part of manhood are offending my masculist sensitivities (as in, "expecting men to always put the needs of others first is forcing them into a harmful gender role") as well as my feminist sensitivities (as in, "saying such things is ignoring the sacrifices women make for others").

    I might also suspect that there misandrist tendencies at work that put the International Men's Day at the same date as the World Toilet Day, but I don't want you all to see my tinfoil hat.

    And a last point (for now): Cheers to Montana, who obviously values men more than toilets, since she ignored the one day and highlighted the other.

  10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men's_Day
    "The objectives of celebrating an International Men's Day include focusing on men's and boy's health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting positive male role models. It is an occasion for men to highlight discrimination against them and to celebrate their achievements and contributions, in particular for their contributions to community, family, marriage, and child care"

    Will send Dad a quick email...

  11. Philippa: "It is an occasion for men to highlight discrimination against them."

    I guess some would call this day the "what about teh menz?"-day ... ;-)

    The Men's World Day has conflicting descriptions, depending upon whether you look it up in the German or in the English wikipedia. Weird ...

  12. heh heh.

    and it's not in the French version at all, far as i can tell...

  13. Happy blokes' day to teh menz.

    Scherfig, excellent bit on Irish weather last night!

    Paddy, looks like we Norn Irishers are slowly taking over the world, one blog at a time.

  14. Just to pick up on Hank's point about dumping Greens over Bea OBE:

    "With due respect to both of them (it's early yet!), that's the sort of personality politics which has bedevilled us since..."

    There is an argument that you shouldnt dump a party over one person, i agree, but...

    The Greens said they were happy to have someone of Beas "profile" on their books, ie they are trading on personalities, they want recognised people, known people, apparently regardless of their worth. That is personality politics.

    Another part of my reasoning is that i am sick of political parties having no regard to personal integrity (Mandy springs to mind). I am not interested in Green personalities at all, but when someone like Bea announces she has joined then i just cant vote for them. I will vote for no party with her in it. I dont want rock stars, but i also dont want careerist parodies like Campbell who have a history of being a public menace.

    The green issue (as far as we can rely on scientific consensus) is much bigger than party politics or personality politics, so with that in mind i intentionally avoided looking at the Greens too closely, as i knew i would find a host of fluffy, new age idiocy and authoritarian fem dogma, and then I'd be too disgusted to vote for them.

    It would be nice if the Green party itself recognised the seriousness of the issue and tried to be a bit more responsible with its policies and when deciding who to let stand for them.

    Strikes me they are now little more than the usual common room bores, their progressive agenda is little more than lifestyle politics, that me me me variety of right-on warbling that will turn off about 95% of voters. Campbell will fit right in.

  15. Sounds to me Jay like you reckon the Greens are to environmentalism what radfems are to feminism.........

  16. "We really do genuinely hate the English rugby team, though, because they deserve it."

    Why do you genuinely hate the english rugby team, Paddy?

    I always support Ireland or Wales if they play someone else, i used to the same with Scotland before i grasped the level of bile that seems to come our way from up there, the little battle reenactment at Murrayfield was the final straw.

    I could understand hating us 6 years ago when we were brilliant, and boring, and had a metronome kicker, i would hate us too, but these days we ranked 8th, we're rubbish, and still boring. I cant see whats worth hating. Its like hating the Mexican football team. Why bother.

    Are the players themselves particularly unpleasant? Any in particular? Even our forwards are humble little losers these days...

  17. "Sounds to me Jay like you reckon the Greens are to environmentalism what radfems are to feminism........."

    Sort of, though it seems the two are one and the same these days, a bit like a political haven for ideologues who cant accept their increasing marginalisation. God knows what dogma they've got on the green manifesto, i cant bear to look...

  18. Jay - "i intentionally avoided looking at the Greens too closely, as i knew i would find a host of fluffy, new age idiocy and authoritarian fem dogma"
    I've voted green in council elections and for the london assembly, as I think they do have something to bring to the table, but for all the desperate claims that they are a credible 'general' party (even before the Bea thing) they are single-issue, to me. That's fine, if you're up-front about it.

    But when the 'Green New Deal' came out, my inner fiscal wonk took over...no tax policy. Some passing references to windfall taxes, investment, sustainability, etc etc, but few, if any, figures. And it was the 'EU paradox' that killed it for me:
    1) we value our engagement in the EU to build an electoral record and work internationally on green issues - fine
    2) we would de-introduce (can't think of a better word) VAT
    Now, you can't do that without leaving the EU. No mention of that. No mention of how they'd reconcile the two things.

    And the proposal to replace VAT with consumption based taxes designed to reduce over time? Again - while claiming that (despite lowering IT for the worst off etc) the GND would result in higher tax take to fund the investment / spending etc, I couldn't see how that would work.

    So, while I would probably still put a tick next to the greens in an election where you get more than one tick, there's no way, even before the Bea thing, that I would pick them in a single-member constituency.

  19. Anybody else having problems getting the Guardian site to load?

  20. Nope, it's loading for me, Philippa.

  21. Ok, re: climate change, there are a lot of scientific findings that the media et al like to spin out of all proportion, (the daily Mail's cancer cause/cure list springs to mind) but as far as I can tell climate change isn't one of them. I don't work directly on the evidence for climate change, but have seen it presented, for a scientific audience, and believe it. If I can find the time I'll write a UT2 article on it soon.

    As for the whole "do we believe the scientists?" question, I'm obviously probably regarded as too biased to be able to convince some people the answer is "yes", but as I find difference of opinion healthy, disagreement with my opinions is something I'm happy to live with.

  22. On climate change (as the G still isn't loading, and I have run out of snowpeople to paint), I would describe myself as a mildly confused onlooker, but it seems to me that while there is 'science' on both sides, its the 'yes it's happening' side that seems to have a coherent and holistic (?) approach based on combining all the evidence and drawing trends from that.

    The 'no it isn't' side, on the other hand, seems to be very particular in that it finds individual specific things that seem prima facie to buck the trend, and then focus on those in a 'baby and bathwater' kind of way (temperature recording stations in the US, for example).

    While there may be some challenges to be made to orthodoxy, I think it's the way this is done - small thing arguable therefore big thing is necessarily wrong - that is what separates the denialists from the scientific method.

    That's just the impression I get. That the balance of all available evidence is for the 'yes it is-ers', whereas the 'no it isn't-ers' can only find individual nit-picky things that don't invalidate the whole thesis.

    Read Michael Crichton's novel revolving around climate change (yes, really) and for all the stats and graphs provided, I couldn't help remembering Dr Ben's demonstration of how to make a graph work for you. There's some great (and accessible for the layperson) stuff up on youtube, including the Climate Denial Crock series:
    "I looked outside, and it was snowing, therefore, there is no climate change."

    heh heh


  23. Hey Dotterel I would be really interested in that - as long as it doesn't bring MAM raining down upon us! But seriously - I think you should do it - would be a good article.

    I am not hundred percent convinced but am much more leaning towards the 'yes it is happening' brigade. My uncle is a meteorologist and he didn't believe in at first - he is a raging Tatcherite so it doesn't fit in with his politics but he believes it now after reading all the science. Also, as he says just look in your own garden.

    I know for the last three years my Rhody has been flowering in November. And actually two years ago I sat in my garden in November in a t-shirt watching butterflies on it. I think because our summers are cooler and wetter people are thinking it is all rubbish. Oh and we had a bit of snow last winter so it can't be true!

    The thing is whether it is or is not happening the only action to take is to act as if it is because to do nothing is literally suicide.

  24. "I'm going to be laughed out the house when I tell the duchess about this."

    Likewise with Mrs Bitterweed.

    All in all I was more comfortable my identity on World Rabies Day


  25. Joan Smith's article has to be the most vacuous published on Cif yet.

  26. Got to take my dogs to the vets. Am really upset. I left a packet of rawhide where they could get it by mistake the other day and they ate it all. Now they have been ill for three days. I starved them yesterday but they are still being sick and have bad stomachs. So phoned the vets and got to take them down.

    I feel such a bad 'mother'.

  27. "The thing is whether it is or is not happening the only action to take is to act as if it is because to do nothing is literally suicide."

    I'm pretty convinced it's happening, princesschipchops and have been watching both the science debate and the environmental lobby develop since the mid - eighties. Bea certainly has some "Dark Green" / "feminist Green" language and is completely devoid of self doubt, so I can see why a Green Party might find her a compelling orator if highly egotistical combatant somewhere like Hampstead.

    But I wonder if scientists working on the IPCC for the last twenty odd years are happy with this sort of prosyletisation...

    This is why it's so dismal. There seems to be very little common or universal focus about something that has most of the evidence - enough for me anyway - to support tackling it.

    Desperate really.

  28. thaumaturge

    That is one HELL of a bet !!!

    back later...

  29. princess - bless 'em, but they probably would have found something inappropriate to eat whatever the circumstances...good luck.

    still can't get into Guardian site so am going to try turning it off and on again.

    farewell, friends, I may be some time...

  30. PCC - sorry to hear about the dogs and don't blame yourself!

  31. thaumaturge
    Oh FUCK it !!.

    No, it's ok you're already doing a grand job. I will abstain... I will abstain... I will abstain... "think of your blood pressure" says Mrs Bitterweed; "think of your brand reputation" says EvilBong...

  32. \o/

    am back in...

    that's the afternoon gone for a burton...

  33. thauma - stiff competition, but I'd definitely place that in the top ten.

    quite enjoying it though.

    heh heh

  34. If you missed the Gettysburg meeting, you can find Lincoln's PowerPoint at:


  35. Thauma,

    I'll see your Smith and raise you this: Jonathan Myerson on G20 protests.

    As vacuous as a supermodel that has just undergone a full frontal lobotomy.

  36. Duke - yes, I remember that article, but I put it to you that it has nothing on Smith in terms of vacuity. Pompousness, I grant you.

  37. O-Kaaaaaay...

    He's pro-legalising cannabis, right?

  38. bloody hell, site's broken again. and i actually did some work in the previous hiatus. boo.

  39. Hllo All
    Happy Chaps day.

    'Gone for a Burton'

    'Gordon Bennet'

    Anybody know who these people were? Why have they passed into the vernacular?


  40. hey leni - found these links



  41. What think you all about report that drinking upto a bottle of wine a day can reduce heart disease.

    I might be joining you all in the nightly binge.

  42. "Ok please go to London zoo immediately, your cousins are in need of your help as they are sick and tired of being locked up, they want to come home"

    Thats cretin of the week that is, on the faith thread speaking on evolution.

  43. Thaumaturge - I had no idea you were one of us!

    Jay: "Why do you genuinely hate the english rugby team, Paddy? "

    Partly because international rugby is more competitive than international football - sometime we beat you, sometimes you beat us - and it's satisfying to have a good enemy. But mostly because it really, really winds up English people ;)

  44. Jesus H Christ* Jay, are there still people on CIF who think that's a convincing argument?

    * I recently found out that the "H" stands for Haploid, which is an hilarious joke, for a geeky biologist....

  45. Pip

    Thanks for links - a favourite here is 'Jesus Jones' - haploid, diploid - who knows?


  46. Indeed, Paddy! His Dukeness had a good post on the Thierry thread making a similar point.

    It's just more fun watching 6N matches with my English, Scots, Welsh and French mates around (we haven't recruited an Italian yet).

  47. Leni - "Jesus Jones" - ah, but they were dreadful...

  48. Which thread, Jay? I quite fancy watching some cyber-violence...

  49. On the Jan Ainsworth thread. He is so, so stupid it hurts. I literally cant remember the last time i saw such stupidity on CiF.

    Fair nuff Paddy, a bit of edge is part of the 6N's charm...

  50. Oh, god, I read that and then got the hell out to avoid using 'language'.

    What right does anybody else have to interfere?
    Probably none.
    What right does the child have?
    Your call, Jan...

    So, it's gone as well as I thought it was going to? Will pop over and rake over the rubble...

  51. "even by CiFs standards this is an incredibly rare trait" - nicely put, thank you for that!

  52. Just looked at the Joan Smith article. Not sure it's the dumbest ever. Surely Read and Myerson beat it hands down and I was always mightily unimpressed with those Derek Draper "Look at me" pieces. Anyway, I don't know enough about shoes to make a valid judgement. BUT..I notice "Bella M" took the trouble to announce...

    "There's nothing empowering about them"...well..duh.. of course not, Bella..for real empowerment, what you need is a rich influential daddy who can fix you up with a cushy job. This is one of those times I regret being persona non grata around there..if I'd bben posting Ms Rushbridger would have got both barrels..the useless little nobody.

  53. Site's gone down again for me, which is probably a good thing as it has eaten a lengthy query from me on the Vernon Coaker thread about why politicians bother submitting to CIF.

  54. Let's not forget this cringeworthy classic from ms shapiro

    In spite of the brutal moderation, one of Ally's comments survived:

    I think the phrase we're all looking for is...

    ...completely effing hatstand.

  55. heh heh scherfig - and this gem from
    somebody curently thinking of his blood pressure - "Nothing that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure"

  56. Are we being spied on? Is CIF going to be copying us, copying them, copying us?!?!


  57. Oh my lord Scherfig - that article! But that comment by Bitterweed, very, very funny.

    The dogs are back from the vets (thanks Philippa and Thauma for the kind words) they have had three injections each and have to eat some special food for a few days. If they still being ill tomorrow they will have to go back. It fair breaks my heart when they are ill.

    What is the news about drinking a bottle of wine a day being good for your heart? A bottle? I have not had any booze for days now. How I miss it.

  58. All this EU President / High Foreign Panjarandum 'election' (weird word for dinner and a fight...) is just plain peculiar. What on earth are we going to gain by people drunkenly agreeing at 5am that their cat could do the job better.

    I mean, I wouldn't necessarily rule the cat out, but...

  59. good oh, princess, hope that sorts them out.

    it's the eyes that get me. ill-dog-eyes are just emotional blackmail in physical form...

  60. Oh and I forgot to say before happy mens day to all the boys on here (boys meant in an affectionate way not in a derogatory misandrist way). Re the toilet day thing too - bit unfortunate and I think you should argue for it to be changed next year.

    But re men and the loo - I never got the whole 'men never put the seat down' thing because why should they. Women don't put it up! Why is the default setting down? Does anyone know.

  61. princess,

    Because men sometimes need it up, sometimes need it down, women always need it down, therefore, on average, it needs to be down.

  62. princess

    The loo seat has to be down 'cos of feng shui ..

    Someone has just commented on the lack of gender balance in the EU:

    Give it a couple of decades and things should even out.

    Well, we've waited 50 odd years since the Treaty of Rome, so why are we still waiting?

  63. Dot/Princess

    My lavatory seat takes a radfem position on this conundrum and is not popular with chaps as it won't stay up of its own accord. It falls forward apparently, so has to be held up with one hand, or so I'm told by the irritated blokes who use it.

  64. This comment has been removed by the author.

  65. "Why is the default setting down?"

    Because that way the overall toilet system has a lower potential energy and is therefore more stable overall..you can't argue with laws of entropy. I once heard the missus saying "No, he's very good like that, he always puts the seat down"

    If only she knew:I don't bother lifting it up because...DRUMROLL...I can piss straight...and I'm pretty tall.

    I understand I'm the only male human being in history who has ever mastered this remarkable feat and I'm duly proud of my achievement. What has always puzzled me though: if they don't trust themselves not to hit the seat, how is it they manage to miss the floor?

    Dunno where the difficulty arises, it's not like you're trying to hit an egg cup from the top of a stepladder.

  66. MF - how long have you two been together, and she's never seen you taking a leak? ;-)

    PCC - glad to hear the dogs are on the path to recovery. They are pathetic when they're sick; it's awful.

  67. About 20 years and if she's about, I lift the thing up..obviously.

  68. Aha, preserving your male mystique!

    Working again tonight, shouldn't take more than half an hour to take the system down, but noooooo - bloody users won't get off it.

  69. and..of course we have different bathrooms...mine in the East wing and hers on the fourth floor next to the au pair's study.

  70. But naturally!

    Sheff, like your radfem bog seat; used to have a similar one.

  71. MF - 'Dunno where the difficulty arises, it's not like you're trying to hit an egg cup from the top of a stepladder.'

    That made my night. But I am going to hurt your feelings now possibly - mine is always down too - as my other half doesn't need it up. He is 6ft 2 though so maybe it is a height thing?

    The radfem loo eh Sheff? Brilliant.

  72. Evening all

    Happy Mens Day to the Mens.

    Happy toilet day to everyone.

    Apparently leaving the loo lid up is supposed, in feng shui terms, to mean that you will always be poverty stricken.

    On the other hand, on buddhist courses which are self-servicing in terms of cleaning and tidying, us wimminz used to put about the rumour that cleaning the toilets was good karma for your sex life. Never seen so many blokes learn how to use a toilet brush so quickly in my life :p

    So both are probably equally a load of bollocks.

    Princess - hope the doggies are ok.

    I have spent all today thinking it was Wednesday until my clerk put me right this afternoon. She gave me my papers for tomorrow and Monday and I said "nothing for Friday yet, then..." and she looked at me as if I was a complete div and told me tomorrow was Friday. It did come as a nice surprise though.

    Right - gonna look at the Joan Smith thread and try and find the creationist who just didn't get biology when he was at school...

  73. monkeyfish,
    "I don't bother lifting it up because...DRUMROLL...I can piss straight...and I'm pretty tall."
    It's the splash back. I've lived in houses full of women and houses full of well-meaning men.
    Trust me, it's the splash back.

  74. Harman is actually going to be prosecuted for driving without due care? That's pretty amazing, innit?

  75. Habib..

    PCC says

    "That made my night. But I am going to hurt your feelings now possibly - mine is always down too - as my other half doesn't need it up. He is 6ft 2 though so maybe it is a height thing?"

    How tall are you habib?

  76. Oh boy, an article on the LHC. That'll bring out a few nutcases *erase erase* - I mean, the differently-realitied community.

  77. thauma

    The LHC is fantastic - I can't wait for tomorrow and am consumed with curiosity. Just hope it works this time. Its also an exquisite feat of engineering

  78. a curious thing - have just been watching C4 news - apparently the UKBA and police have pounced on a cleaning company ISS for exploiting illegal immigrants working (allegedly) at a hospital down south. The curious thing is that the UKBA use the same company to clean their offices in Sheffield.

  79. Sheff - interesting one!

    Harman prosecuted? Ooh. I will take a shufty at that.

  80. Sheffpixie
    Theres a good documentary right there....

  81. Oh, on the subject of the Euro President "election" this evening, did anyone hear the snippets on R4s Today programme yesterday morning? I heard them in the car and was LOL-ing because they gave a 20 second bio of each of the runners then finished each one by saying "of course, the other thing he has in his favour is that he is not Tony Blair" :D

  82. monkeyfish
    "How tall are you habib?"
    Well I can reach the urinal.

  83. 3rd July - that was the day of the fire in the block of flats in Camberwell. She will no doubt be arguing special circumstances.

  84. I hope they throw the book at the Harperson - although they probably won't. What really pissed me off was, when she had the accident, she just wound the window down and said "I'm Harriet Harmen and you know where to find me" - arrogant cow.

  85. A criminal conviction will mean resignation. What fun.

  86. Gawd, I just looked at the shoe thread. Want to scream. I don't give a rat's ass if Joan Smith enjoys wearing 'fuck me' shoes, but don't try to justify it as some sort of political statement. Christ on a fucking bike!

    And, BB, what the hell are winkle pickers?

  87. And on a note totally unrelated to anything else being discussed:

    If there is a god, he is male and has a very sick sense of humour.

  88. Montana

    I have a book by Joan Smith written back in 1989. In it there's an essay on Marilyn Monroe where she says:
    Marilyns costumes are....skin tight, so much so that she could not sit down between takes on the set. The dresses were not only ludicrous but positively lethal: a matter of weeks after filming ended, she lost the baby she was expecting

    So tight frocks not OK in 1989 but 'fuck me' ankle breaking shoes are OK in 2009.

  89. Hmmm
    I'll try again with a URL that isn't 17 miles long (even tinyurl won't accept the original one)


  90. Montana - great comment on the menz v bogs thread!

    BB - huh, I always thought winkle-pickers were women's pointy, flat shoes. Obviously I am shoe-illiterate. (I have a brown pair, a black pair, a pair of trainers and a pair of wellies.)

    (OK, to be perfectly honest, I have a couple of pairs of heels gathering dust at the bottom of a cupboard.)

  91. Men's and women's thaum. I have some really neat ones - black with silver studs across the top of them that are killer!

  92. "If there is a god, he is male and has a very sick sense of humour."

    Hardly an original insight Montana...We at the Church of the Immaculate Bitterweed have known that for years.

    Blessed be the Warped and Mighty Fourth Way Pathfinder..

  93. What is the Mighty Fourth Way Pathfinder?!

    You said that the other day too, and I think in the context of the Great Weed of Bitterness himself too...

  94. Yay, have closed off work for the evening and nice roast leg of lamb is nearly ready! Am looking for a wee treat for you all on the shoe subject....

  95. The Warped and Mighty Fourth Way Pathfinder headed up by The Great Weed of Bitterness! lol

    We could start our own cult.

  96. Sheff - I thought we had! :p

    Hehehe - one of my mates posted on Facebook today (changing the subject completely) that Jim Knight MP, Secretary of State for Welfare and employment, was on BBC Breakfast this morning saying: "Governments don't break the law unless they can't help it".


  97. Roast leg of lamb on a weeknight?

    That's posh, that is, Thaum.

    I bet you have got grapes in the fruitbowl when nobody is ill, too.

  98. @BB -- I would be no more capable of walking in those than 5 inch stilettos.

    @Thauma -- cheers. I thought it was pretty good, myself.

    @Monkeyfish -- I'm as confused as BB, but if Bitterweed is the god -- I want to join that church!

    @Sheff -- A lot of people seem to think we already have.

    Graun keeps crashing Chrome all of the sudden. Irritating.

  99. Should have put a smiley in there so you know I am ribbing you, not passing social commentary, Thaum :O)

  100. A fourth way pathfinder is a pioneer of the fourth way.

    The fourth way is the path taken by those who have exhausted the possibilities of the third way and are taking their pioneering to the next level ie. the 'fourth sector'.

    The third way is the path taken by those who have transcended the tired old two-way doggerel of the 'unenlightened.

    Hope that clears things up.

    If not...

    "It's all about empowering ordinary people to do extraordinary things. The Fourth Sector is between the other three sectors, but it's also the periphery around them, so it's very much encompassing. It's incorporating, it's enveloping, within and without. We want to elect certain people as fourth sector pathfinders who are ordinary people doing extraordinary things within their community... but are not vigilantes."


  101. I remember Jasper Carrott came out with a good one about wearing winkle pickers when he was young. "Do your feet go all the way to the ends of your shoes?" "No officer. Does your head go all the way to the top of your helmet?"

    I have to confess I'm confused about women insisting on putting the toilet seat down, when as often as not they won't sit on the bloody thing anyway. Hovering? Why?

  102. Oh fuck me..it's fourth SECTOR pathfinder..

    Well bollox..he's always been a fourth way pathfinder as far I'm concerned.

  103. Hehehehehe - good one MF. I have only seen two or three episodes of The Thick of It - a bit late to the party as always.

    Paddy - well, it depends on where the loo is. If it is in someone's house, fair enough. But if it is a public loo and there is nothing to clean the seat with, I hover too. Don't want someone else's wee on my bum, thanks. :o)

  104. BB/Montana

    I thought there was something I'd missed. Who am I supposed to be worshiping? The weed of bitterness or the great fourth way pathfinder?

  105. Can't currently post on Cif - dunno why.

    God was so disinterested in woman kind that he sent the holy ghost to beget his son.

    Shoes - had to go respectable place today - needed shoes - had forgotten I had only flip-flops or wellies. Will have to join the consumer society. I hate shopping.

  106. Who am I supposed to be worshiping? The weed of bitterness or the great fourth way pathfinder?

    They're one and the same, Sheff.

  107. Shoes -- thauma's shoe closet holds a pair of trainers and a pair of wellies more than mine.

  108. The weed of bitterness or the great fourth way pathfinder?

    They're one and the same...bit like the trinity only there's just two of them. I suppose the fourth way pathfinder's a sort of metaphor for the holy spirit. The weed of bitterness is the...er other one. I might invent a third and start a schism..

    Yeah..the 'weed of bitterness' is god the father..er...no parent..don't wanna get all misogynistic


    The offspring can be called...Wayne...Wayne's like the messaiah..

    "I believe in the weed of bitterness, Wayne and the fourth way pathfinder..."

    Anyway...send cash, cheques, postal orders etc to my address and I'll do something worthy with them...

    And don't forget to pray five times daily..in the bath...make up your own prayers..sing a bit if you like..but make sure you're facing Milton Keynes.

  109. Fuckin hell Montana...you're a theologian. You might have said.

    Oh yeah, forgot to say...when I mentioned I'd do something worthy with your 'tributes'..it won't involve large amounts of lager and spliff..honest.

  110. Bit like the trinity only there's two of em.

    Does that mean he's a Binity then?


    Coat's already on..

  111. Not Milton Keynes

    Anywhere but Milton Keynes.

    Can't I face Brighton?

  112. Sounds like it will be money well spent, MF.

  113. Actually, thinking about it -- lager and spliff are probably the blessed sacraments, aren't they?

  114. right - Wayne, Oh Great Weed of Bitterness and Fourthway Pathfinder - am on my creaky knees facing, where was it? milton keynes? Am I shriven now?

  115. I am going to have to call for a schism, as so early in this new faith.

    Lager - bleurgh.

    My Church of the Seventh Day Pathfinders offers you Old Speckled Hen.

    And we face Brighton when we pray.

    The Body of the Pathfinder - spliff
    The Blood of the Pathfinder - Old Speckled Hen.

  116. The Book Of Paths, Chapter 1 vs 1

    "I am the Wayne and the Light" sayeth the Pathfinder.

    And it came to pass that the Pathfinder did taste the Weed. And it was Bitter.

    And He did declare it good.

    And he proclaimed to those gathered in the ether:

    "As any one of ye shall partake of the Weed, so shall ye follow my word, and will be thenceforth called The Untrusted!"

    And it came to pass that a multitude gathered in the ether. Some worshipped openly while others lurked and watched on. But all were amazed at the power of the Bitter Weed.

    And he held up his hand, and declared: "Those of you that thirst, while ye have faith in me, will flow the Old Hen that is Speckled.

    And his cup runneth over.

    And the Untrusted heeded his words, as he said:

    "Blessed are the commentators. For they shall inherit the intarwebz!"

    Here endeth the first lesson.

  117. ...this made me laugh...


  118. Just nicked this from the waddaya thread


    What the fuck is she wearing?

    Looks like she just beamed down from the Enterprise to save the planet...

    Bea Campbell...Dr Spock's twisted sister..

    "Where no man has gone before.."

  119. Good Wayne! She looks well dodge, doesn't she?

  120. BB:

    Roast leg of lamb on a weeknight?

    That's posh, that is, Thaum.

    It's only because I'd intended to cook it on Sunday but ended up invited round a friend's house for dinner & rugby. So it needed cooking pronto. Pain in the arse on a weeknight.

    I bet you have got grapes in the fruitbowl when nobody is ill, too.

    What's a 'fruitbowl'?

  121. thaumaturge: 'What's a 'fruitbowl'?'

    It's the space on the side in the kitchen where the apples, pears and plums live... and the section of the egg rack in the fridge which contains a shrivelled lime left over from Sol drinking in the summer! :)

  122. "What's a fruitbowl?"

    Touche, Thaum! :o)

    Lovr lamb, me. Would eat it every day if it wasn't so bloody expensive now. Might get some for sunday. Mmmm.

    Where is deano, btw?

  123. "MF... are those her own hands?"

    No, she borrowed them from Lord Voldemort.

  124. BB - you rock tonight, sister.

    Not Milton Keynes

    Anywhere but Milton Keynes.

    Can't I face Brighton?

    No, you silly neophyte, pain and suffering is all part of it.

  125. Shaz

    It's the space on the side in the kitchen where the apples, pears and plums live...

    Ah, ta, it's where all the mould lives 'cos I sometimes buy this fruit stuff and then never get around to eating it....

    I promise I eat my veggies well though.

  126. Hehehe - in my previous life, before I was a barista (as my brother calls me), I used to have to go to the VW HQ in Milton Keynes quite regularly. Vile place.

  127. thaumaturge - haha yes and me... or the kids demand it and then inexplicably go off it... but only after you've bought a ton of the stuff...

  128. Montana

    Shoes -- thauma's shoe closet holds a pair of trainers and a pair of wellies more than mine.

    You seriously overestimate my housekeeping skills. The shoes I actually wear are distributed around the house, not in some organised closet-thingy.

  129. Awww cuteness! He looks a bit like one of our rats!


  130. thauma - ha ha I do that with fruit too. I am just turning some apples into penicillin as we speak.

    I think that little talk from Beatrix was great - the only slight criticism I would have is that she didn't mention sustainablity enough.

    Just thought I would report the dogs are okay. Tired but sleeping and they have eaten a bit of special vet prescribed food (but Philippa you are so right with the eyes!).

    BB what did you reckon to Stargate Universe this week? It kind of went over my head!

  131. That cartoon Ratatouille is obviously a huge bunch of stuff, but rats definitely know good food from junk. If I have any left over meat, I usually cut it into little bits for them and feed them chunks, and they almost fight to get to it.

    The other day hubby thought he would buy them some luncheon meat, so i chopped that, went to feed them with it, they came and sniffed it, shrugged and walked off... no joke. Spoilt little buggers. Same with sausages.

    But a bit of pork chop or some stewed beef and they are all over you.

  132. Well, bugger, I can't find the original version but here is a very amateurish reading of Steve Martin's The Cruel Shoes.

    Completely appropriate.

  133. pcc

    Glad the dogs are on the mend.

    I didn't see Universe this week. We have kind of lost interest. Not as good as the original, robert carlyle notwithstanding

  134. Princess - very glad to hear the dogs are on the mend. Keep us posted!

  135. Ok darlings. Up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire for me.

    NIght night x

  136. BB - yep well it went totally bizarre this week. A stupid plot so am getting a little bored myself. Will update on the beasties tomorrow. Thanks for the support. Nite all. x

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