15 November 2009

Daily Chat 15/11/09

Thomas Wolsey was invested as a cardinal in 1515.  Francisco Pizarro arrived in Cuzco in 1533.  The Continental Congress approved the Articles of Confederation in 1777.  William Tecumseh Sherman's troops burn Atlanta at the beginning of Sherman's March to the Sea in 1864.  The first assembly of the League of Nations met in Geneva in 1920 and the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed in 1985.

Born today:  Georgia O'Keeffe (1887-1986), Aneurin Bevan (1897-1960), Petula Clark (1932) and Anni-Frid Lyngstad (1945)

It is Shichi-Go-San Day in Japan.


  1. Black Rose ? Wasn;t that a Thin Lizzy album ??
    Anni-Frid Lyngstad. The slightly less beautiful member of the 70s greatest pop band...

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  3. "for a good illustration of
    a broader base of community response to a previous visit to this topic see the first score of posts from (in part) fencewalker martillo and edwin on the thread of oct 31,,"

    ..and your point? These were in response for a set of posts which neither featured me, nor are remotely typical of what I post. You haven't been exactly clear but I seem to get the impression that you object to the tenor of my everyday posting...which I believe to be backhanded censorship...control how someone expresses themselves and you control what they say...not shifting on this...fundamental truth IMO.

    As for specific instances of personal abuse...why are you bringing me into it?...as I say...keep reading...(stuff before this week...as I've said, I won't be losing any sleep over those)...and yes..no doubt she is a 'person'...if you cut her etc etc but she had all sorts of chances to act like a 'person' but decided to pass.

    provocation = "smoke and mirrors"???...could write a chapter on that statement and its implications...suffice to say..we're not in agreement here.

    As for my original argument, I'm already conscious of your "I just walk away" threat while writing this..it has stayed my hand already. Probably won't next time. But how does your walking away help? You seem to be a mission to clean up Dodge and make it a "decent town where folk can raise kids" etc. For you this seems to involve improving the tone of posting here...a worthy aim, even if it's one that I feel is unnecessary (there is virtually no moderation here ever...nor any real need),...now how can you do that if at the first sign of unpleasantness you head for the hills?

    Not sure the "I walk away" theme is practical in that regard? Sometimes you have to stick around and say your piece...and sometimes that causes friction etc etc. That's where the progress starts.

    I mean, what if, out of exasperation, I started my next post: "Oh FFS 3p4, get a fuckin grip"...is that you gone? You might feel it leaves me 'diminished' etc. but if you're not around to finish your 'task'..what was the point?

  4. I love Georgia O'Keeffe. Which causes me often to ruin canvases by signally failing to manage to capture the complexity of nature in a simpler form. I should stick to me 'squares' stuff, but I keep thinking, one day, one day, I'll manage it...


  5. Are hangovers self induced or part of a global conspiracy to subjugate Britain's population?

    groaned the 2nd time in a row ill aristocrat???

    From Wikipedia:

    A hangover (pronounced /'hæŋoʊvɜr/) (veisalgia) or delayed alcohol-induced headache describes the sum of unpleasant physiological effects following heavy consumption of alcoholic beverages. The most commonly reported characteristics of a hangover include headache, nausea, sensitivity to light and noise, lethargy, dysphoria, diarrhea and thirst. A hangover may also induce psychological symptoms including heightened feelings of depression and anxiety


    From The Fisher Price my first Bilderberg conspiracy manual:

    We create hangovers by pumping Britain's environment with toxic chemicals every Saturday and Sunday morning to keep People's attention away from the actions of the Bilderberg Lizard people which are at their most active at the weekends.


    Whatever, stick a couple of alka seltzer in that glass of Irn Bru will you???

    pleaded the rather fragile landed aristocrat.

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  7. oooooh dear. chin up, your grace. mind you, I've found that having hit thirty, hangovers now tend to be all-day affairs. jus' not fair...

    Anyway - Bilderberg - my favourite Wiki-snippet:
    The 1976 Bilderberg conference was planned for April at The Homestead in Hot Springs, Virginia, United States. Due to the ongoing Lockheed scandal involving Prince Bernhard at the time, it had to be cancelled.

    Bilderberg UK is a registered charity, incidentally.

    Kind of thing that gives the rest of the sector a bad name...


  8. 3p4 - I was wondering if your reference to 'smoke and mirrors' was (riffing on monkeyfish's line earlier) to Bru's self-presentation...but I'm afraid I did find it all a bit hard to follow.

    Not really awake yet. And the radio is now playing dance music of some description, that is not making things any easier. Surely Sunday morning radio should by law be restricted to restful soothing music, particularly if one is in the same state as his grace...

    Hip-hop a bee-bop-a-lula...
    There's just no need for that, surely?

  9. Philippa

    Georgia O'Ks paintings are amazing, I agree.

    And Duke - no sympathy, I had to give up hangovers when they started to last all day, as Philippa has said!

  10. Morning Philippa,

    I must say this weekend has been an exception, an exception that at this moment in time I'm taking exception to!

    Clearly doing a piss poor attempt at GIYUS shows his posts make most sense after a double hangover.....

  11. I often wonder if GIYUS is proof positive of the multiple universe theory, in that his posts do mostly smack of an alternate reality...

    Which could also explain the sporadic and concentrated nature of them - he only has a certain time to post before the stargate closes...

  12. to prevent hangover

    drink a massive amount of water before passing out,,this means you have to get up to piss,, drink more large quantities of water each time you wake up to piss,,no hangover in the morning

  13. NWA's "Express Yourself", now that's more like it...

  14. 3p4

    Still not sure what your point is. Could be the opacity of your prose which verges on the deliberately vague on aoccasions. Think you might want to adopt a more positivist style in your addresses to me, at least. In others, I would take this as a deliberate attempt at obfuscation, generally to give them the advantage of having it both ways when objections are made.

    This is particularly common on the multitude of sites with comments policies, demands for civility etc. There's no shortage of these. They're usually peopled by earnest nobodies who queue up to take offence on behalf of others, often to flex their liberal credentials and show the world what wonderful creatures they are. Such sites end up trading in euphemism and banalities and any dissent is christened "trolling". Frankly mate, they're 10 a penny. Try one...CIF if you like but tbh, that is one of the better ones, then come back and tell me that restrictions on the mode of expression don't affect the ability to express yourself freely and clearly. This site isn't like that and I'm somewhat loathe to accept arguments that any steps in that direction should be taken.

    "from someone judged to be hostile and aggressive as a default then yes i probably would be"

    ..and are you suggesting that's me? "hostile and aggressive as a default"? Because frankly, if you are, then we inhabit different planets 3p4. See, it can be read either as me...or not..are you being intentionally ambiguous?

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  16. "Could be the opacity of your prose which verges on the deliberately vague on aoccasions."

    I am guilty Montana

    and I am rude and salacious but not self harming.......does that mean I have to go

    Please don't cast me out now I am a hon granddad.

    I have yet to read the the thread from when I was last awake - but if I find myself on the other side of the street to comrade 3p4 i will have learned something new

  17. 3P4 - on the bright side, the added texture of painting on a 're-used' canvas can often add an interesting aspect to the finished piece [grins].

    heavens, now I'm getting all tangential.

  18. Get a grip PB

    tangential - ...I wish ....I was just about to offer you a place in the boat...

  19. Morning everyone

    Your Grace -
    You've had a proper Glesga weekend by the sounds of it - I hope your recovery is going well. Best hangover remedy I know of comes from a mad Californian Vietnam vet I met who drank as though his life depended upon it. One large egg vigorously beaten into a glass of orange juice with a generous(ish) slug of brandy.

    if its from some anonymous who says "3p4 you are the worst"

    I don't think that, although I do find your posts a bit gnomic at times, but that could just be me - getting on as I am with senility crouched and waiting round the corner.

    Don't be daft - this place wouldn't be the same without you and you must know that.

    PS: What is this Bilderberg thing? Something to be genuinely scared of or just another lot of internet conspiracy loons getting excited?

  20. My lovely Sheff if my name was anything like Rothschild and I had that genetic disorder --

    I would have invented Bilderberg.

  21. Bilderberg is as it has always been - the 'great and the good' getting together as 'neutrals' and discussing what the world should do.

    Strikes me that the conspiracy theorists do it a favour - I mean, how interesting would a weekend spa-break in gleneagles with malcolm rifkind and queen beatrix really be?

  22. Afternoon all - off out to jumble sale oh the excitement of my life knows no bounds.

    Sheff you should really be worried about Bilderberg - here they are in action


  23. Thats rather what I thought Phillipa - just a bit of mutual masturbation and self congratulation signifying nothing except expensive lunches and maximum windbaggery.

  24. Edwin

    If they're being lampooned by the Simpsons then I suppose I should take them seriously. Groan....yet another thing to worry about.

  25. ###rider###
    obviously they aren't neutral but the abject personification of the term 'vested interests', but fears that they are in fact attempting to impose a 'one-world order' is mildly tempered in my view by the fact that a) that position has already largely been reached and b) with that many blowhards in a room used to getting their own way, I'm guessing that 'consensus' isn't a word they use much except on the (to them) really obvious stuff - capitalism, free markets, golf, that kind of thing (which we already have). A bit like the social contract, but with a private jet and an immense sense of self-importance
    ###end rider###

  26. PB - I wish you was part of my crew..

    I wish you could be there in the pub in '10 when I get to to adore me York's lass's s and BB

  27. Lust dissipated is a public service not to be cut

    I have a daughter and granddaughter to be protected

  28. ah, deano - for five days over Christmas I will get to be a country girl - but that's suffolk, sadly, and we no longer have a dog to accompany our bracing walks. the local squirrel population may heave a squeaky sigh of relief at that, but the rest of us still miss him...

  29. Hi Sheff,

    As my hangover includes:

    - a thousand yard stare.

    - flashbacks.

    - the sound of helicopter rotors going ''whup, whup, whup'' through my brain.

    - Me shouting YOU WEREN'T THERE MAN, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN THERE!!! to the Duchess.

    - and ''the horror, the horror'' echoing in my ears

    that Vietnam Vet hangover cure may just do the trick.

    Off to Somerfield to get the ingredients.

  30. Your Grace

    Sounds like an eventful evening...at least you haven't got the valkeries flapping around you, so it could be worse.

  31. Afternoon all.

    Have not been able to log in on here for a few days as my network is going really, really slow and getting onto blogger was impossible, managed to make a couple of comments on the Guardian but even that became too much like hard work. So might disappear again on and off as and when network allows access.

    Anyway just wanna say - Montanna - congrats on the job! Big hug that is fantastic.

    And Deano and BB - a sheffield meeting! Fantastic! Sheff - we will have to have that drink at some point soon too. Got a bad stomach at the moment though and am off the booze. It is seriously hard. Five days now without a drop. of course the fact that I am counting makes me wonder if I really have an issue! But got to treat the old stomach with kid gloves right now, in fact it is not just booze cant really eat either! On the plus side have lost five pounds! Yeah. There is always a silver lining.

    Bru - shame on you. Although when you made the comment re being surrounded by 'extremely' well bred and attractive people in Brussels over on UT2 I must say I marked your card as slightly batshit crazy.

    Your grace - it sounds like a shocking hangover if ever there were one. Hair of the dog should sort it out. But the egg? Shudder.

  32. Afternoon all

    I have just had roast chicken and trimmings, and a really lovely pud of bananas flambed with a bit of brandy and orange juice to make a sauce. Bloody lovely, but now I can barely get my arms over my tummy to type as I lie on the couch.

    I know how those foie gras geese must feel now.

  33. Pcc - I adore you -

    you catch the vid of the grebe??

  34. I do not suppose

    I never have

    but me and the shfff3+1

    Oh yes. and just for the avoidance of doubt - yes

  35. grebes - wonderful. Final triumphant water walk - bit like a wedding. Declaring ones love to the world. The wedding clothes and the venue come free.

  36. Annetan - I don't suppose you would do it with me for threepence- would you my lovely?

  37. I like your considered taste leni

  38. Try this for a piece of stomach churning piety. Seems anyone who tried to protect Jews from the Nazis was a condemned sinner...


    I can't keep up the deception any longer...I'm Belle du Jour

  39. deano

    I find little , if anything, to criticise in the nattural world - from the giant rays to the tiniest speedwell. Have more problems with peeps - still love 'em though.


  40. Why do I have a dustbin to the right of the date?

    Should I be offended?


  41. It means you and only you and Montana can delete the bit as you thought tit

  42. Leni

    You get the dustbin option 'cos you've signed up for a google account to post here. You can click on the dustbin to delete your own post, if you so wish. The rest of us can't see anyone's dustbin but their own.

  43. Ah ! a dustbin each - very democratic. How good it would be if we had a life experience bin - delete all mistakes and nasties.


  44. Monkeyfish


    You don't look anything like Billie Piper!

  45. That article is some kind of fuxx0rd, btw. Disgusting.

    This bit in particular is the most twisted logic I have seen this side of CiF in a long time:

    "But consider for a moment that we are all already sentenced to die because we are sinners (Romans 5:12). It is going to happen regardless. If a lie helps keep someone alive for a matter of moments compared to eternity, was the lie, which is high treason against the Creator, worth it?

    It would be like sitting in a cell on death row and when the guards come to take your roommate to the electric chair, you lie to the guards and say you don’t know where the person went—while your roommate is hiding under their covers on the bed. Does it really help? Since we are all sinners (Romans 3:23), death is coming for us, and there is an appointed time (Ecclesiastes 3:2).

    Proverbs 12:19
    The truthful lip shall be established forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.

    Is it worth sinning against God to try to buy a moment of time next to eternity—intentionally lying is foolish and would only harm the extent of your own life (Ecclesiastes 7:17). Lets’s look further at Scripture for an example of a situation where a lie could have saved a life. "

    Right. So if you believe that, according to Romans 5:12, we are all sinners and we are all going to die, what the hell difference does it make to lie to protect someone else if we are all in for the chop anyway? Duh.

  46. MsChin

    Educated guess... but I might be completely wrong! :p

  47. As a brunette, I take exception to the notion that Anni-frid was any less beautiful than Agneta.

    I don't think I could stomach MF's link. I'm guessing Bonhoeffer would have a few things to say about that notion. Certainly Niemoeller did.

  48. BB, I wouldn't get too worried about the lying article - it's fundamentalist tripe, and not really mainstream thought. I remember discussing the 'ethics of lying' on a Cif Belief thread a long time ago. Have a look at the views of Plato, Aristotle, Origen, Aquinas or Kant if you're interested in the subject. It's not, of course, an exclusively 'religious' topic. it's more philosophical.

  49. Monkeyfish

    The piece that linked to was totally nauseating - where do you find them? Really hard to believe that anyone sane could believe such atrocious garbage.

    PS:Belle de Jour huh? How do you look in a thong and lacy bra then?

  50. where do you find them?


    Excellent site. All religious, new age and postmodern nonsense debunked, skewered and hung out to dry. They're very even handed too...occasionally they're pretty hard on Islam but if you look back through the archives they're totally scathing of Christianity, Hinduism, New Ageism, Freudianism..all pseudo science in fact, Structuralism, Post-modernism...sort of enlightenment 'fundamentalists' (if there is such a thing?)

    This is good too...


    Have a look at the archives

  51. answers in genesis? talk about abrogating all f-ing responsibility for being a human being. like that would impress the big guy as an argument - [snivels] I knew that you'd want them to die so didn't want to interfere with your divine plan, sir... [gets smacked upside head by St Peter's clipboard]

    "with humbleness in christ" my arse.

    mind you, the site being called 'answers in genesis' did make me wonder whether they were taking a certain extended metaphor a b i t t o o s e r i o u s l y and yup, there you go, top of the page, a link to the 'creation museum'.

    I mean, what the hell is actually in a creationist museum?


  52. Griffin to stand as a candidate in Barking at the next general election.

    While mildly concerned that he might actually succeed, I am, I'm afraid, currently more amused by the constituency chosen.

    Altogether now - Oh yes he is...

  53. Yeah I caught the Gri££in news earlier, Pip. Can he be an MP and an MEP at the same time? I have no idea.

  54. Nice one, Philippa. Interesting choice though, Barking is of course Billy Bragg's turf. Would be great to see him stand as an independent.


  55. 3p4

    does anyone get my drift ? or is it obscure/wrong/dumb/other planet to everyone ?

    Being of a more engineering mindset, I sometimes find your posts a little hard to follow, but that does not all mean that I don't welcome them. All opinions are good (well OK, until they're bad but yours aren't!).

    13th Duke - that's hysterical; "the horror, the horror" is my mantra every morning when I have to get ready to go to work. Call me Kurtz.

    Montana - whilst despising Abba, I have always thought that Frida was not only the better singer of the two women, but also the better looking. But what do I know, as a hetero woman?

    Although speaking of which: that Iranian protester who was shot, Neda Agha Soltan, is I think one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. Mind you, her boyfriend looks pretty hot too.)

    Not to trivialise: sad story, and a brave woman.

  56. Philippa,

    As I understand it, the Creation Museum has exhibits that portray man and dinosaurs living in peaceful coexistence about 6,000 years ago.

  57. Like he wanted to be an MEP...it was necessary to move towards full parliamentary representatiion. nobody cares about council seats (outside their own constituency) when a 'real' election comes round, so they needed to be able to point to 'real' seats already won. my guess is he wasn't expecting to get the EP seat.

    dual mandate has gone now, but I don't know if he'd have to give up his EP seat to stand.

  58. Philippa - that is too funny!

    "Nick Griffin, Barking MP"

  59. Now I've got the jukebox out, here's one for thauma...


    19 years old when he wrote that. Boy genius.

  60. Barnbrook came third (only 40 or so votes behind the Tories) in Barking 2005, but the Labour majority was huge. I admit fearing that they'll somehow manage to get a seat...and that in this neck of the woods, the incumbents being mainly Labour, they could be looking to sneak through while the other parties split the vote (and if independents get involved on an 'anti-BNP' ticket, much as I would love Mr Bragg in the COmmons...)


    Montana - hang on. Had heard that dinosaurs just didn't exist, as they aren't mentioned in Genesis 1-2 (to which I say simply - squirrels). I didn't realise that a wing of the outlying crazy considers the Flintstones to be a documentary...

  61. "Nick Griffin, Barking MP"

    I expect much will be made of it in the meeja. just hope the good folk of Barking show more sense than to vote for the little creep

  62. thauma - oh, it looks even better written down!

    i always giggle at the strange tag-team voice-overs on polling day, you know:
    Voice 1: John Bercow
    Voice 2: Conservative party
    Voice 1: so-many-and-that votes

    Maybe they could start doing that for house debates, just so it would be:
    Voice 1: Nick Griffin
    Voice 2: Barking

    That would also be funny.

    Am having an odd day today...

  63. Sheff - hoping here too, but is Margaret Hodge the best person to fend them off? Can't imagine what the BNP are going to get up to in that regard...

  64. Great choon, Hank. Just also spotted this version of Weller & Amy Winehouse doing I heard it through the grapevine" - think I also spotted Seasick Steve in the audience!

  65. radio buffering up the swannee, but as I'm listening to the freak zone, i can't always tell if it's the connection that's gone, or just a pinteresque pause in the music...

    someone is currently blowing a referee's whistle over people humming.

    i'm just not smart enough for that kind of music...

  66. That's nice, thauma. Ms Winehouse is a worthy successor to Dusty, but what's really impressive about that performance is Weller's soul voice. I remember Paul Morley or some other NME hack dismissing him back in the day as not being able to sing. His voice has matured beautifully.

    Also, the Tube Station pic is a great little period piece, Rick Buckler with a ciggie on in the underground. 7 years before Kings Cross of course. Even as a passionate smoker, it must have been hell for non-smokers sitting on a tube when every other person was puffing away.

    Btw, your Amy link led me to this cover of a Temptations classic, which is also worth a look...


  67. 3p4

    does anyone get my drift ? or is it obscure/wrong/dumb/other planet to everyone

    I meant to say something about this, too. 3p4, even when I'm not sure whether I'm interpreting your comments correctly, they have a beauty and a mystical quality that I admire. Please don't go!

    Yeah, apparently my notion of which women are beautiful is a bit weird. One of the things that I found really irritating about the movie "The Truth about Cats and Dogs" was that I think Janeane Garofolo is much prettier than Uma Thurman. And I think Angelina Jolie is actually kind of ugly.

    Then again, my taste in men is apparently not in sync with most women. I'd take Charlie Brooker over Brad Pitt any day.

  68. More talk of UT on the WDYWTTA thread. Bru making a fool of herself again and BTH sharing his wisdom. This is reality TV as written by Philip K Dick. Can't wait for the movie version.

  69. "I think Angelina Jolie is actually kind of ugly...I'd tale Charlie Brooker over Brad Pitt any day."

    Your invite to Brangelina's Xmas do still lost in the post, Montana?!

    @Scherfig - there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about.

    Change of pace, haven't listened to the album for years. I bet sheff's got it in her collection...


  70. Liked it, Hank. Love the Stones and am also an unabashed Winehouse fan despite all the negative press she's been getting. Talent will out. (Love Keef quietly smoking his fag in the background.)

    Just found this: vid of the Stones listening to the playback of Wild Horses in the studio - song is cut, but quite interesting.

  71. Oh, and Montana: completely agree on the Brad Pitt thing. Doesn't seem like a bright lad.

  72. "...completely agree on the Brad Pitt thing. Doesn't seem like a bright lad."

    Nah, not having that. He was great in Seven, and Fight Club, and he was funny as fuck playing a none too bright lad in Burn After Reading.

    I like Brad. It is disturbing though that he seems to look ever younger with each passing year.

  73. Hank - I'll freely admit that I don't think I've ever seen *anything* he's been in. But I've seen pics and he doesn't do it for me. Too pretty.

  74. "Too pretty."

    Maybe that's why I'm standing up for him, thauma. Like Brad, I've suffered from not being taken seriously due to my good looks.

    It's a curse.

  75. Oooh.

    Just watched the latest Doctor Who. He's gone all dark and megalomaniacal.

    Last one with David Tennant will be at Christmas. I will be sorry to see him go cos he has been one of the best ever, imo.

  76. Yeah, Hank, me too. ;-/

    Sometimes I think that this ought to be the UT's theme song. On its good days, it fulfills the need.

  77. BB - I watched it to - quite the dark lord I thought.

    Bru seems to be going a bit bonkers on WDYWTTA. I don't think she can be very happy for all her glossy lifestyle, so much poison. (bit like the water pouring out of the martian victims in Dr who BB)

  78. sheff - looks like The Master is back for the Christmas special, which is fine for me cos I like John Simm.

    Re Bru and Waddya - I saw what she was saying earlier and I have decided to keep away from there for a while. I can't understand where it is all coming from. It really is blowing it all out of proportion.

    She has issues with some people on here - well, fine, then she needs to sort them out with those people. But attacking Montana so personally is truly below the belt.

  79. The sucking?gurgling sound that you hear is what is left of her credibility on Cif draining away with each crazed post. She really has lost it.

  80. Let's mellow out a bit. Here's one chosen by my offspring:
    Time for some Time Away

  81. Brangelina deserve each other, IMO. But I don't find Pitt too pretty, I just genuinely don't think he's good-looking. Just looks like any other Nebraska redneck to me. Even in an Armani suit. To me, handsome, beautiful and attractive are very different things.

    Jose Mourinho is handsome, though I wouldn't call him beautiful and I don't find him attractive. Fernando Torres is beautiful, though I don't consider him handsome or attractive and Charlie Brooker is very attractive, though he probably isn't really beautiful or handsome in any traditional sense. And Terry Hall manages to be all three.

    And Ciaran Hind in "Persuasion" is just about as sexy as any man has ever been.

  82. Montana - completely agree that "attractive" and "good-looking" are not at all the same thing. I don't have an opinion on Jolie as I've never seen her in a film either (yes, I am a Luddite in that sense) but the one that amazes me is Julia Roberts. I think she's seriously funny-looking and I did see "Pretty Woman", which I thought was one of the most sexist films I've ever seen. As well as just, well, bad.

    Bru's now going after me as a 'colluder' after I've spent a lot of time pleading for peace, partly on her behalf. Oh well. I'm not pleading for peace now.

  83. Montana agree absolutely about Persuasion - the best of all the Jane Austen adaptations - and love the way the adapataion turns into a Patrick O'Brian novel at the end!

    I was an extra in Hallam Foe. Never met Ciaran Hind but the other extras were raving about a nice man he was, warn and friendly.

    I wonder if you know this lovely Kipling poem -

    (“The Janeites”)

    Jane went to Paradise:
    That was only fair.
    Good Sir Walter followed her,
    And armed her up the stair.
    Henry and Tobias,
    And Miguel of Spain,
    Stood with Shakespeare at the top
    To welcome Jane –

    Then the Three Archangels
    Offered out of hand
    Anything in Heaven’s gift
    That she might command.
    Azrael’s eyes upon her,
    Raphael’s wings above,
    Michael’s sword against her heart,
    Jane said: “Love.”

    Instantly the under-
    standing Seraphim
    Laid their fingers on their lips
    And went to look for him.
    Stole across the Zodiac,
    Harnessed Charles’s Wain,
    And whispered round the Nebulae
    “Who loved Jane?”

    In a private limbo
    Where none had thought to look,
    Sat a Hampshire gentleman
    Reading of a book.
    It was called Persuasion,
    And it told the plain
    Story of the love between
    Him and Jane.

    He heard the question
    Circle Heaven through –
    Closed the book and answered:
    “I did – and do!”

    Quietly but speedily
    (As Captain Wentworth moved)
    Entered into Paradise
    The man Jane loved!

  84. Go, sherfig! Hadn't heard that one for ages.

  85. I have just read the latest lot - she is not in a very healthy place at all.

    Long story short, years ago I had an internet falling out with a couple of people in a chatroom. The worst thing was that almost everyone who participated there knew each other in real life. Not the same kind of thing at all, but I was well and truly shafted by someone who was a friend in real life. It was really very very unpleasant and the time and I ended up quite traumatised by it. I was suffering from depression at the time anyway and became really paranoid, unable to believe anything anyone said to me any more, and unable to trust people.

    (Which, in case people wondered, is the main reason I try not to get involved in spats in here).

    She is not seeing the wood for the trees at the moment because she wrongly perceives this to be Montana's fault, which is daft. But if she doesn't let this go, she will end up making herself ill over it.


  86. Edwin: Persuasion was the unfinished one before she died, is that right?

  87. Thauma

    i go for Beethoven sonatas when in need of peace. and agree that you have done stirling work on that front.

    What an old romantic you are - and very lovely too.

  88. No, Edwin, I'd never read that before. Thank you -- it is indeed lovely.

    There have been times when I've almost been embarrassed about how much I love Austen's work -- I know that there are some who look down on it. But as ageing spinster, myself, I love her more and more all the time. Jane rocks.

  89. Bloody hell, mschin, that's 8.20!! Nice cat though. BW will enjoy the geetar when he turns up...

    I was an extra in Jennie's War back in my student days, edwin, a 4-hour mini-drama coproduced by ITV Central and ABC America, iirc.

    Spent two days in a field clapping and cheering a wartime concert party. We all had to have short back and sides as well, which was a blow given the era. £25 a day, and all the food you could stomach, but we never got to meet Dyan Cannon or Robert Hardy.

  90. Fuckin hell...just looked at Whaddaya

    She's teamed up with that little insect BTH...axis of weevil etc.

    Mind you, she did promise she isn't coming back. I'm genuinely interested in her abuse trope though..especially now she's taken refuge in a cocoon of victimology aided and abetted by BTH...I know she got a bit of stick but it always seemed an appropriate and proportion bit of blowback to me; An understandable reaction to her vacuous consumerist fetishism, condescension and mistaken high-brow self-image..if nothing else, this weekend has proved just how thick she is and lacking in empathy and understanding of other's feelings. Not to mention the potential consequences of her post...she actually bragged about it...did she not realise the pariah status she was headed for as a result?

    None the less, she persists in this victim routine...and alludes to months of constant abuse...I'm not sure there's any substance to this...some response to her gross insensitivity..but she seems to me making the case that because she's female and she's wound people up then any reaction is de facto misogyny. Naturally BTH agrees..which is surely a good indicator that it's pure bullshit...but I just don't see it.

    Far as I remember...a lot of this started when Bella M appeared on here and got short shrift (to which I hold up my hand) which pissed off her and kiz who seemed to want to cosy up to her. I had my reasons at the time for giving her a bit of a cold shoulder...and now it turns out she's Rushbridger's daughter I'm fuckin glad I did. However, that did seem to be a bit of a catalyst...which is now recast as "months of abuse"

    Is it just me...is this applied victimology hyped exponentially to excuse a fuckin idiot her viscous behaviour?

  91. Thauma -- Austen left two unfinished works -- The Watsons and Sanditon.

  92. Yeah where is BW...a "fourth sector pathfinder" if ever I met one.

  93. Ah, Sheff, I adore the Moonlight Sonata.

    Have you heard Leonard Cohen's take on it?

  94. The unfinished novel is Sanditon, Thauma, in which a West Indian heiress is introduced and described as

    'about seventeen, half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was also of the first consequence in every plan of Mrs Griffiths'

    This is Miss Lambe, who, in the America of the time, would I suppose have been classed as a 'high yellow' black - wish Jane had been spared to finish the novel.

    As usual Jane is describing her society with a sharp eye - West Indian heiresses with black mothers or grandmothers were not that uncommon in English gentry life (like her beloved Dr Johnson, there is little doubt that Jane Austen was 'a friend to the abolition' of the slave trade.)

    I am a terrible old romantic Sheff!

    Hank £25 for those days is not bad. The money for movies now can be pretty awful - adverts are the cream .

  95. Hank,

    you class warrior you.

    Why do I have the suspicion that your extras part had you playing a louche Charles Ryder/Sebastian Flyte type wearing Oxford Bags and laughing at the oiks? And loving it?

  96. I wonder if BTH has got enough kleenex?

  97. Mr fish
    Is it just me...is this applied victimology hyped exponentially to excuse a fuckin idiot her viscous behaviour?

    She does sound as though she's in a terrible state and whilst I think she has totally over reacted it suggests she may be rather miserable and not very secure, contrary to the image she like to project. Sad really.

    BTH appears to have accused us all on the UT of being bullying alcoholic yobs.

  98. Duke - I hereby nominate Brideshead as the best screen adaptation ever made.

  99. I see BTH is pushing bru's 'woman-bashing' accusation and demanding that montana 'defend her code of conduct'. He's such a fool. If his faux outrage directs any misogynists this way to get in on the fun, they're going to be sorely disappointed. What an idiot.

  100. I'm a bullying alcoholic yob, me. Why, I am in court nearly every day...


  101. @BB - this is not Montana's fault, obviously. It's not MF's fault either, although MF was the focal point of her recent attack, initially.

    I probably gave Bru some stick some months ago. I can't remember. It wouldn't surprise me though given the kinda shit she posts, and my natural mindset.

    Either way, I'm not sure why she's felt the need to bear a grudge against Montana for so long simply because MH continues to give me a platform. I'm guessing that the recent UT2 emboldened her, made her think that I was an easy target, and like all cowardly bullies, dived in when the time was right.

    Truth is though even if I didn't post what I thought of her, I no doubt judged her right long ago - a vain, narcissistic airhead.

    Which is obvious from the fact that she chooses to use her economic power, her Lady Bountiful act of charity, as a weapon to use against Montana when MH doesn't act as humbly and subserviently as Bru has come to expect from those upon whom she bestows her "charity".

    I've got some sympathy for her, strangely. She's obviously very unhappy, which is clear from her defensiveness, the lashing out on here and on Waddya, the talk about the pashminas she buys because, after all she's suffered lately, she deserves it.

    She's not as confident or as fulfilled as she likes to appear either. Why else would she feel the need to claim that she's been enjoying nights out at the opera, charity galas, big money shopping trips, etc? Why is she so defensive that she chooses to slag off my son as a middle-class prat?

    I'm guessing she's infertile, lonely and unhappy in her job, and that she seeks solace in shopping for shoes.

    That's sad, and deserving of sympathy. Genuinely.

    The reason that she's never fitted in on here is that she lacks both humility and honesty. She clearly thinks that she's too good for most of us, which is why her comment about being surrounded by "well bred and attractive people" grated so much, because it was all of a piece with her condescending attitude on here.

    Nobody's irredemable though. Full disclosure and genuine apology could make all the difference.

  102. Montana - You are not alone - I find Ms. Jolie really weird looking. And I dont find Brad Pitt pretty - in the slightest. In fact I get offended when people call him a young Redford - he wishes! And yes the brunette one in Truth about Cats and Dogs was better looking than Uma.

    My only dissent has to be re Abba I found the blonde prettier. And I am a brunette - well I am now - had about five years as a blonde but my natural colour is dark reddish brown.

    Deano - right back at ya with the love. Have not watched the birds yet but will do. Been in bed a lot with this stomach thing but done a lot of reading which is good!

  103. thaumaturge,

    I have the Granada adaptation on DVD and it is magnificent. As is the novel.

    Despite the fact the novel represents everything I detest to the very fibre of my being, the writing is so evocative and rich and I have always had a soft spot for it.

    Except for the bit they volunteer to crush the General Strike. Twats.

  104. sheff

    Yes, I can't tell you how thrilled I am to be labelled a disciple and a bullying alcoholic yob.

    Given the choice of my own label(s), I would've preferred acolyte and rude gal though.

  105. Blimey - are we doing (almost) synchronised posts now?

  106. I've got this image of her and BTH on the tarmac at Casablanca airport. They've just seen her credibility take off into the distance and BTH...turns to her and says

    "Bru, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."


    You trying to wind her up? How's she gonna feel reading..

    "That's sad, and deserving of sympathy. Genuinely."...from you, of all people?...not that you're wrong.

  107. This comment has been removed by the author.

  108. Hank
    Nobody's irredemable though.

    Agree. But I find the degree of pure malice she has displayed difficult to stomach - it's much worse than the 'abuse' thats sometimes hurled about here when people are in their cups because its so coldly cruel and self serving.

  109. I'm cool with the alcoholic yob tag by the way. Alcoholic poet would have been better...lager philosopher..nearer the mark...and pissed up revolutionary heart throb: bang on the money.

  110. Here's a little taste of the life that I left behind to hang out here with drunks, yobs and misogynists.

    Boys will be boys

  111. Your Grace
    Despite the fact the novel represents everything I detest to the very fibre of my being

    I know exactly what you mean. I devoured Evelyn waugh in my youth and it wasn't till I went back to them years later that I thought 'hang on a minute' - do I actually care about these people. The writing is, as you say, superb though.

  112. It's all making me feel rather sad. It's so unnecessary.

  113. monkeyfish, you forgot to mention that BTH had just put ultimathule on the plane, and he needed a new squeeze.

  114. scherf - i hope you are not referring to Charles Ryder - I thought he was a bit of a sycophantic toady.

  115. Your Grace

    Despite the fact the novel represents everything I detest to the very fibre of my being, the writing is so evocative and rich and I have always had a soft spot for it.

    Yes, exactly, It's beautiful and yet encompasses most things that I find wrong with the political system.

  116. Talking of weird looking heart throbs we are watching Twilight with the very weird and unsexy Robert Pattison. A man who every girl under the age of sixteen and over the age of eleven seems to have got her knickers in a right old twist about.

    I think BB is right about Bru - she has been posting weirder and weirder stuff for a few weeks now. I think she might be in a very bad place and it makes me genuinely sad.

    I am proud to be an alchy yob. Well I am a Barnsley lass - dont know what else anyone would expect!

  117. Hi Sheff,

    Scoop is another Waugh I really enjoyed.

    Never got round to your Vietnam hangover cure but I'm right as rain and feel like a million Zimbabwean dollars.

    Hang on. I just looked at the description of the males who post on here by BTH. Just let me get my checklist........


    drank all weekend so must be alcoholic- check.

    Yobbish behaviour-I got really angry with my wingman for no reason on Call of Duty on the playstation and shot him.- check

    Woman hating:erm, Sheff I bet you are rubbish at hoovering and BB can't stack the dishwasher to save herself - will that do for misogyny?

  118. Full disclosure, sheff - I was Aloysius, the teddy bear.

  119. Your Grace

    YOu've touched a nerve there. By husband says I can't stack the dishwasher properly either.

    Still... I am happy to let him do it instead :P

  120. Oh my, there do seem to be a lot of lurkers on this site.

    Anyway, am off to bed - 'night all, lurkers included.

  121. Your Grace

    You have me there - a domestic goddess I am not. And yes, Scoop is wonderful.

    Scherf - Aloysius! - so you're furry and cuddly - how can we resist! arguably the most balanced character in the book.

  122. I much prefer the Sword of Honour trilogy to Brideshead. In the last of the trilogy, Unconditional Surrender, the former corporal Ludovic ends up writing a bestselling novel that is basically Brideshead - Waugh describes it as

    "a very gorgeous, almost gaudy, tale of romance and high drama. . . The plot was Shakespearian in its elaborate improbability. The dialogue could not have issued from human lips, the scenes of passion were capable of bringing a blush to readers of either sex and any age. . . [it was a book] which could turn from the drab alleys of the thirties into the odorous gardens of a recent past transformed and illuminated by disordered memory and imagination."

    Uncodnitional Surrender also includes what for me is one of the funniest scenes of any war novel, when Ludovic emerges from his lair and terrorises the men being prepared for drops into the Balkans.

    Waugh of course served in Yugoslavia and started a rumour that Tito was a woman - Tito was not amused. Sorry rambling again off to bed!

    Re Bru I have no idea how she climbed aboard this particular horse - hope she lets it go soon.

  123. BB

    You're being brainwashed by the patriarchy dear. It's a deliberate ploy to make you feel inadequate so he can play with the nice machine.

    Anyway, what's the odds that the Duke leaves the toilet seat up!

    And scherfig, that bear is very attractive ...

  124. "Scoop is another Waugh I really enjoyed."

    Well I love Evelyn Waugh..just for the writing..especially The Sword of Honour trilogy. Mind you, he's got nothing on Anthony Powell. The 'A Dance to the Music of Time' series is probably one of the finest exhibitions of English prose I've read. You've got to hate the politics in both though..and they both manage to depict a panorama of the 30s without a hint of a mention of British fascism. Even PG Woodhouse has a comedy fascist.
    Something about great writing and crypto-fascism? TS Elliot's another...of the great British writers, only Auden emerges with any credit from that era with an credit...not knocking Orwell..love the guy to bits..and the essays are outstanding but he's hardly a stylist.

    It's a bit of a theme...get to Nabokov...Lolita's probaly my favourite book in terms of prose style..but then there's the paedo thing. Fucking shame..really is...write well..you're suspect.

    I'm not a Joyce fan btw...not that he didn't have his demons.

  125. MsChin

    I am perfectly happy to be brainwashed by the patriarchy if it means he does the dishes. :o)

  126. Off to bed too.

    I leave everyone on here and the lurkers too with the most beautiful song ever written

    This is not up for debate, it is not subjective opinion but certifiable objective, empirical fact.

    Bonne nuit.

  127. Ignore the lurkers, thaum. The same ones who were taking the piss over at Waddya the other night presumably for stuff posted on here in good faith about things that happened to us, things that bore us, shaped us, made us aware, for good and ill.

    And they're sitting over there on Cif taking the piss? Seriously, who gives a shit about people like that? Cowards and sheep the lot of them.

    Having said that, I've got nothing against wombats. They seem to have some integrity.

    Night thaum x

    I really should go to bed too, but I've just opened another bottle of wine, and I wouldn't like to disappoint the fans of my "alcoholic yob" schtick.

    Maybe if we could set up Bru and BTH on soulmates, we'd be rid of the pair of the boring, sanctimonious fuckers.

  128. BB

    Me too.

    And mops the kitchen floor, plus the ironing. Mine's a treasure really.

  129. Duke - 'Yobbish behaviour-I got really angry with my wingman for no reason on Call of Duty on the playstation and shot him.- check'

    My other half plays that - all the time! He is addicted. He also says I cannot load a dishwasher - and actually he is right. I cant! I really think it might be the one area where men really are superior. Well that and taking the bins out, mowing the lawn, doing the rewiring......

  130. I'll throw in a recommendation for CP Snow's 'Strangers and Brothers' novels. They take in everything from the nuclear weapons to Myra Hindley via Whitehall and Cambridge University. There was also an excellent TV adaptation back in the 80's.

  131. PrincessCC: Damn right about the Cats and Dogs film - I saw it at the pictures for some reason, and had to suspend disbelief that Janeane Garofalo was meant to be the plain one compared to gawky weirdo Thurman...

  132. G'night, early-to-bedders.

    Interesting song, Your Grace. Never heard of her before, but she has a lovely voice. You could right what I know about music on the back of a postage stamp, but it seems like her style would be much harder to pull off than the Whitney Houston/Mariah Carey school of screeching. Yet they're the ones who get lauded as having incredible voices. ???

  133. Can anyone post on the UT? I can do the alcoholic bit... quite happy to be told to bugger off if not...

  134. Hehehehe - welcome shaz! Hihi.

    I am only an alcoholic when there is an r in the month.

  135. Duke: Shame you're in bed - here's another beauty for you and all the rest too.


  136. had to suspend disbelief that Janeane Garofalo was meant to be the plain one compared to gawky weirdo Thurman...

    I could kiss you for that, Peter.

  137. @shaz - see my post above. Wombats with integrity are welcome.

    @montana - public relations consultants...international policy and regulation advisers etc...heh, what a surprise.

  138. Montana: Do feel free!

  139. Welcome, shaz -- alcoholic or not!

  140. Shazthewombat
    How very nice to see you on the UT. As you will notice tonight we have been talking about literature , in our own alcoholic and yobbish way, with musical interludes thrown in to the mix. Please feel free to contribute.

  141. Hi, shaz. You don't want to believe everything BiteTheHand says about us. We've got a few alcoholics here, but most of us are actually only heroin addicts.

  142. Uma Thurman has one of those faces which are a blank canvas. Years ago I knew a girl who used to be a Vivienne Westwood model in the 80s. She was, to all intents and purposes, not shit hot until she made herself up properly then... wow! She had the kind of face made for proper make up and she was stunning.

    I think Thurman falls into that category imo.

    If I ever decided to bat for the other team, it would be Angelina, though...

  143. @peter: xxx (and it was another lovely song)

    @hank: I know.

  144. Thanks for the welcome, made me feel much less diffident about contributing...

  145. Ah, sheffpixie: you can't beat a bit of Norwegian/Pakistani fusion...


  146. Well I'll leave you folk to it. Early start tomorrow so night all.

  147. I'm off too. Night night folks xx

    And a special hug for the lurkers xx

  148. peterjj

    I really love Jan Garbarak, especially when he plays with the Hilliard Ensemble

  149. This comment has been removed by the author.

  150. shaz

    contrary to popular belief elsewhere we're really quite an amiable bunch - even the class warriors in our midst.

  151. Hi there Shaz. Welcome aboard.

    BB first of all the Ferry love and now the strange and Golum like Jolie!

    What is really interesting (if you are sad like me) is to look up how different she is now from when she was young - so many plastic surgeries. Her and Brad are phoney's of the highest order.

    Re Uma - Peter you are so right she is just so gawky and strange and she has HUGE hands. Seriously watch the scene in Pulp Fiction where she is drinking the milkshake and has her hands on the glass. Outsized. They used to freak my dad out, god bless him.

    BB - I too have a face made for make up. But instead of being bland without and beautiful with I am passable with and a fright without!

  152. Sheff: Yes indeed - I have the Officium CD somewhere, must dig it out and rip it into the library down here...

  153. Hank - as I said before 'alcoholic yob' is practically a compliment where I come from!

    Re Gary Glitter - I was once round some friends house and the topic turned to mr glittery one and I was so shocked when some bloke (he was a work colleague of someone and I had never met him before) started to say he had not done anything that wrong and it was just a 'bit of porn and a mess about with some girls'. Never have I heard such an uncomfortable silence.

  154. Sheffpixie - popular opinion has kind of lost its credibility a little... heroin addicts, alcoholics and yobs (does locking the butler into the freezer in Tomb Raider count as yobbery?) are easier to get on with... actually, talking of Tomb Raider, am kind of with BB on the Angelina Jolie... er was going to say 'front', but will amend to 'subject'...

  155. stuff posted on here in good faith about things that happened to us, things that bore us, shaped us, made us aware, for good and ill.

    tres cool,,

    shaz,, fancy meeting you here !

    i wonder if mz gingold is still stuck outside the door,,another cif poster who always strikes me as a natural for UT is englishhermit,,

  156. 3p4 - hi - thanks for the info - am incredulous that they deleted you, were you expecting it?

  157. Shaz: Everybody gets deleted sometimes - it's even happened to me, and I'm the most mild-mannered of alcoholic yobs. I can't even remember which particular Stalinist I was arguing with now.

  158. If we're still doing lovely music:

    Lovely Terry singing a lovely song.

    (Although, it must be said that the tracksuit doesn't suit him.)

  159. peterjj - I have been too. Not sure I was even drunk at the time!
    But this was a comment from 3p4 giving info about the existence of cifwatch to someone who didn't know about it - what are the CiF gnomes afraid of?

  160. Shaz: It's possible the moderators are a bit huffy about Cifwatch outing BellaM after her (to be charitable) odd intervention about Melanie Phillips. Hell, it might even have been Bella herself.

  161. hi shaz,,i am not at all surprised,,although i would go with the legal threat motivation rather than cif moderator with an agenda motivation for the big chunk that vanished,, which means i was more or less an innocent bystander who happened to share some agreement with Ally about cynic dude in the same post as the info for you,, the actual target (from the drone) was cynicdude,,our
    cifwatch info was collateral damage,,Ally got wiped too

  162. @3p4 - "tres cool"

    Glad I'm not the only one round here who appreciates the WW1 poets.

    "If they should should die, think only this of them
    That there's some corner of a foreign field
    That is forever won cheap. There shall be
    In that rich earth, a conspiracy concealed;
    The scum whom England bore, shaped, made aware.
    Gave once her beer to swill, her fags to smoke.
    The scum of England breathing England's stench,
    Washed by the bathtub, blest by suns of coal.
    And think, this lie, all profit on the way,
    A profit in this eternal mind, no less, (no more)
    Gives somewhere back the shares by England's richest given:

    Her shit, her cant, dreams taken by the day;
    And justice, learnt of the dead; and hope,
    In hearts of oak, steadfast against the truth of England.

  163. Love Jane Austin and Waugh - something odd about the identification with their characters - see them in context.

    Can I recommend 'Salmon Fishing in Yemen' - not at all what I expected from title.

    I was so incensed by the Mitzvah thread that I posted on Cifwatch about it. People need to differentiate between Israeli politics ( generally awful) and Jewish people. Too many ' wars' going on in Brit society - conveniently let the poor fall down the plughole.

  164. hey berchie,,if you ever look in here,,which after this weekend i expect is more likely than
    previously i had a great quip to shaz about you

    "cifwatch is where they like to use berchmans as the soccer ball,, rather than his usual role as referee"

  165. Btw, even though I'm not an official greeter here, welcome to leni "afcandogge". One of Cif's finest.

    Now, if you can just explain to me the "afcandogge" appellation, that would be grand.

    And for your following trick, explain the reason for the hostility on the I/P threads...

    Seriously though, leni, make yourself at home. Good to see you here.

  166. her fags to smoke.

    In hearts of oak,

    Hearts of Oak,, old kentish rolling tobacco,,with history in its name


    Once more into the breech dear friends,,

    the words of kings

  167. Hi Hank

    I know a lady who really misses you - can't tell you her name.

    Thanks for welcome.

    AD was my password - some mess up when registering.

    Afanc - mysterious lake dwelling creature - many believed it scion of the devil others saw it as benign.
    Dogge - a large black, wet nosed creature currently leaning on me - Chaucerian dog of the people. He let a complete stranger wander into the house a coupla nights ago - luckily the stranger was lost mountain biker - been on a night ride.

  168. @3p4 - I've never looked at cifwatch but I gather it's a GIYUS-sponsored site. Please tell me I got the occasional namecheck, I'd be so proud...

  169. Leni

    i dipped a toe in the cifwatch waters a while back. There are those there who don't accept that rejection of Israeli government policy doesn't make you an anti semite - its all of a piece for them. So tread carefully.

  170. Hostility on I/P threads. Many would be Freudian types have tried to solve this mystery - generally ascribing mental disorder to the enemy.

    Am in contact with some Israeli posters - they are generally afraid. My view is that there are too many people locked in ideological cages as well as huddling onto a resource poor piece of land which will not support them all for much longer without massive investment in de salination and water supply infrastructure.

    Israel is on wrong side of history - ethno'religious nations no longer fit. Israel likely to collapse from within unless tension between rival groups is resolved.

    Possibility of invasion of Lebanon - to gain access to Litani river.

    In short - too many frightened people being manipulated by small groups of power hungry zealots.

    That's my view in a nutshell. The polarisation process is encouraged - Amadinajad is a godsend to both parties. Games of musical chairs going on at moment - shiftting of position across whole region. Painfully interesting.

  171. "can't tell you her name.."

    Well, I'm guessing it's soraya, mate. No reason why she can't post on here, she'd be more than welcome.

    Just as olching would, and peterG, Lester and others.

    Btw, if olching is looking in, and you've emailed me and didn't get a reply, I had pc problems for a few months. If you want to get in touch, my email address is on Friday night's UT thread....

  172. Sheff
    I tread very carefully - I have sympathy with Israelis as well as Palestinians - just loath Israeli policies re Palestinians.

    Site run by Jonathan Hoffman - Vice chair of Zionist Assoc here - an obsessive.

  173. Thanx for the response on the I/P conflict, Leni. There's a lot of sense in what you say.

    This isn't my fight anyway, but would like to see you stick around on the UT, respect you as I do.

    There's bound to be things we can argue about(-; xxx

  174. Leni
    In short - too many frightened people being manipulated by small groups of power hungry zealots.

    Yes, you're right I think - I find it all unbearably sad.

    I don't know whether olching browses over here (it would be good if he came back and I'd love to see PeterG et al) but BTH definitely does - he's just quoted on Waddya from some of my posts here this evening. You'd think he had better things to do.

  175. Anybody watching Australian PM talking about Brit children sent there - it's heartrending.

  176. hank,, only visited the place once,,laughed,,cried,, took a shower,,cried some more,,
    so i dont know if you get a name check,, the poster on i/p threads who nearly always gets a click from me is bass46,, i used to do all the i/p threads but after nadav first showed up it became like MaM threads,,one troll,,twenty feeders,,same old sameold car crash,, i bloody hate threads with one troll getting immensely fat
    over and over again,,PresD Nadav Mam etc etc ad nauseam,,

  177. Leni! Good to see you here, too.

    My, my. We've been picking up some wonderful new arrivals lately.

  178. I saw it on the news tonight Leni. They were still sending them in the 60s. A lot of them ended up the the Christian Brothers who treated with incredible brutality by all accounts. An utter blot on the UKs escutcheon.

  179. leni,,just so you know,,i was dropinbucket on the iiiiiii/ppppppppp threads,,i dont read them anymore,,but i followed many a lennystone/pretzelberg/moeran/etc debate when i started on cif,,

  180. 3p4

    Lenny Stone is missed - a good man.
    I had a big run in with Nadav when he was Iahima. An unreachable man

  181. This comment has been removed by the author.

  182. Hi Hank: Yeah, things are brighter today after being walled in by gales over the weekend. Friday was a bad day, though; glad you (and all of you) were there.

  183. I have no respect for anyone that can't say the same

    oh,,poop,,just when we had traded civility,,
    i walk away from many arguments,, ohh well takes all sorts,,
    hearts of oak
    hearts of war
    hearts of peace
    hearts in the right place
    hearts in pain

    seen em all this weekend

  184. Hank
    It has been noticed - you'd rather raise Cain than Jesus !

  185. "You'd rather raise Cain than Jesus..."

    No apologies for that, Leni. It's what I do. And I'm glad it's been noticed.

    Great to see you here btw, as I said earlier, Leni. I look forward to some interesting debates, if you're gonna stick around, cos I respect you as a poster.

    But probably not tonight.

  186. Hank

    I leave it to you to set the parameters for the debate/punchup.

  187. "I leave it to you to set the parameters for the debate/punchup"...

    OK, leni, no knuckledusters, no knives, the gloves are off...just me and you, here, tomorrow at 7.30pm...Paula Wilcox or Sally Thomsett?

  188. Sorry, leni, that last post might have come across as a bit aggressive if you're not a fan of Man about the House...

    Sorry dude, no offence...

  189. Hi Hank

    Just seen this - I don't know who they are ! I don't often watch TV so frequently find myself in the midst of confusion on threads. I'm sure we'll find something to disagree about - it will be a dual between aggression and sweet reason. I am never sure which is the better combative style- suppose it depends on the opponent.

    No offence taken - takes a lot to offend me.

  190. That sounds like a challenge (-;