17 September 2009

Daily Chat 17/09/09

The city of Boston, Massachussetts, was founded in 1630. The US Constitution was ratified in Philadelphia in 1787. With more than 22,000 casualties, the one-day Battle of Antietam became the bloodiest day in American history in 1862. Manfred von Richthofen won his first aerial combat near Cambrai, France in 1916 and the independent Polish trade union, Solidarity, was formed in 1980.

Born today: Hank Williams (1923-1953), Roddy McDowell (1928-1998), Des Lynam (1942), Fee Waybill (1950), Kevin Clash (1960), Baz Luhrman (1962) and Pixie Geldof (1990).

It is National Heroes Day in Angola.


  1. The time difference and Daily Chat format have been preventing me from taking an active part in the threads since school began, but I do read everything every day. I don't normally use up the first comment of the day to address things from the previous day/days, partly because I'd prefer to let each day's thread develop it's own tone and partly because most of what I would comment on tends to happen earlier in threads and by the time I'm home and putting up a new thread, the subject is "old".

    However, today I'd like to comment on something that's made me a bit uncomfortable lately. I'm not sure this place has been very welcoming of newcomers lately and I want to remind everyone that, all joking aside, this is NOT a clique, a cabal, or a club. It's a public blog.

    Being a Cif regular is not a requirement for being here, either, and I've been a bit dismayed lately by newcomers being pressed about their Cif identities. What difference does it make who they are on Cif or even if they are on Cif? When a new commenter shows up here, take them as they come. I would hope that no matter who shows up, if they are pleasant here, those of us who've been here for awhile will be pleasant right back. It's hardly welcoming to say to someone, "I don't like your comments on Cif, so I'm not going to engage with you here."

    That goes for Guardian staff who might come over here, too, and I'm not saying that just because they linked to my 11/09/09 comments. As frustrated as many of us have been with bizarre or hypocritical modding decisions, there really isn't any reason in the world why they should give a rat's patootie what any of us thinks. Granted, I don't spend a whole lot of time commenting on other newspapers' sites, but I have never seen staff members anwhere else engage with commenters the way Graun staffers do. Do you think for one moment that a Times staffer would comment on a blog like this?

    I don't want to seem scolding and I hope no one thinks I'm taking the "ringleader" thing too seriously, but whether I meant it to be this way or not, it is somewhat inescapable that I get blamed on Cif if the tone here is seen as hostile. All of those things on my profile were from accusations that were levelled at me in a short span of time this summer.

    Thank you, folks. Play nice.

  2. Thank you for you friendly consideration....but as long some from the guard..coming here have the right to insult,and the account of the one insulted reporting them as abusive gets kicked,we don't have an equal system,where all are "friends" but definitely the attempts to postulate a 2 class system.ètiquette got used as therm originally at the court of the king to know how to "well behave" towards him.I don't consider young brats acting out their petty power games as mobbing group worth any royal consideration, whatsoever..I think,they are despotic little poseurs,and talking about abuses is a sanity necessity to remember we are all truly worth human respect.Considering all the pleasing noises towards these manipulative "sweeties" I start to wonder,what is the aim of some in this blog and how close it is to the guard itself.But maybe,it´s "the spirit of the days"to be more interest to make a funny word game than to point out dysfunction and revolt decently.The next times will change that,in rude eras the deeper values/or brutal failure comes back to the surface facing real life.it´s not going to be all "nice"sugar&sweet and "smartness" will lose his stock market level drastically, solidarity will be rediscovered!...wait&see!

  3. I hope I haven't made anyone feel unwelcome, and if I have I apologise unreservedly as that has never been my intention.

    I've not followed every thread here so I might be missing something important but have people been really pressing others for their CiF identities or insisting they have them? I agree that it's at least impolite to do so and we shouldn't be doing it, but with the provision that the poster themselves isn't someone who is carrying a CiF argument over to here.

  4. victrix causa deis placuit,sed victa catoni.
    the winning side might please the gods, but the lost one...to Cato.lukan,bellum civile


  5. ''What is the aim of this blog and how close is it to the Guard itself''

    posed anonymous I above

    'Good question...................'

    said anonymous II

  6. lord...I agree about the first,but about what are we suppose to talk...guard interns chicken shit....about guard "stars"?
    I never liked fan magazines. tfy

  7. anonymous2...makes one wonder,isn't it?

    let´s observe the "drop-outs"of the drop-outs".tys

    people who experience abusive violence don't react normally serving calming pills with cocktails!

  8. The Proxy Sweetshop?????

    'Kabal of ........profiled 'sweeties' ?????????'

    posed the cynic

    '...............surely not'


    'Lord Summerpiles........... said

    ' Hope I haven't made anyone feel unwelcome.....'


    'Nothing disingenuous about that'

    posed the wise fool

  9. Completely agree wildhack. It's been making me a bit uncomfortable about the way new visitors have been treated on first arrival. I think that all that needs to be done when s'one new comes along is to say hi... or just engage with them. I don't think we need to question them or point out rules to them... as all they need to know is stated at the top of the page. As for the treatment Bella and Jess got. I was angry about that and said so. If people think it's ok to be downright nasty to someone simply because they work for the Graun... then I'm in the wrong place... it really isn't for me. You can think what you like about that... call me a bourgeois, liberal, graun appeaser... couldn't give a flying... There's no need to be so nasty to the staff.. The Graun is JUST A NEWSPAPER! I think some people take the bloody thing far too seriously...

  10. 'How to deal with a State of Dissent.......'

    posed the wise fool hypothetically

    'Hard ....and deflect remnants into honey trap?'

    posed Winston Schmidt

    'Honey is used in some sweeties isn't it?'

  11. Sweeties on Parade????

    'Oh.... its the dizzybot lozenge now'

    posed the troll

    'NOT the one that likes to wheel out multiple references to ''tinfoil helmets'' on 'conspiracy threads'?

    'I mean do people still wear ''tin foil'' helmets when critically discussing corporate taxes, MP's expenses or the banking system?'

    posed the wise fool

    '......... sweeties...... suck'

  12. It's hardly welcoming to say to someone: "I don't like your comments on Cif, so I'm not going to engage with you here."

    Well said, Montana. It's ok to ask about cif identities though, isn't it? People are bound to be curious.

  13. Of course, the identity of some anonymous posters is easier to work out than others ;-)

  14. Well I never comment on Cif any more, but I do agree it is only manners to be polite to people who drop in whether newbies or Guardian staffers, and as a fellow guest here myself, I thought it was nice of Bella and Jess to drop in (as well as the kid-on merchants such as 'Inayat'!)

    Your praise of the Guardian over The Times needs qualification: always follow the money. Your perspective on the Guardian is that of a liberal American. However, the Scott Trust, which runs the Guardian, is described in the current Private Eye as 'Britain's most secretive institution' - which is not far off the mark if one qualifies it as 'media institution'. (I have friends who work for both.)

    Follow the money: the people who run the Guardian and the people who sell advertising there do not give a rat's arse about the politics of Cif posters: what they do care about, and care about very much, is the social and economic profile of the posters, people with incomes and of a certain social class who can be targeted by advertisers. They are also very keen on American posters, so you yourself are actually quite covetable from a Guardian point of view.

    And of course you posters provide free content, which is what all web outlets want.

    Leonard Cohen:

    I said to Hank Williams: how lonely does it get?
    Hank Williams hasn’t answered yet
    But I hear him coughing all night long
    A hundred floors above me
    In the tower of song

  15. edwin- all you say about gmg is prob very true... still no excuse for vile manners and nastiness.. bell and jess work for gmg. they don't run it

    It is easy with some yr Lordship isn't it!

  16. Hey martillo.. my spanish friend! How goes it there?
    Right, I have to go to work now and so won't be able to join in this conversation til this evening...
    be nice, kids... be nice..

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

  18. It is kiz, and I make no apologies for making spamming trolls with nothing of any value to say unwelcome, if I have actually done so..

    The occasional post from Bella and Jessica on the other hand only enhances the place in my opinion. As you say, they only work at GMG, they don't run it or determine its editorial policy.

  19. 'edwin- all you say about gmg is prob very true... still no excuse for vile manners and nastiness.. bell and jess work for gmg. they don't run it'

    oh no quarrel there Kiz - every Murdoch (and ahem, ex-Murdoch) employee would echo that with amens.

  20. Hi Kiz. Work... started back myself on Monday. Very hard it was too.

    Guardian staff are fair game on cif but not here (IMESHO). Not as if they work for RTZ or something.

  21. Montana -
    Its difficult though, regulars on any social networking site tend to get comfortable with each other and it can then be very offputting to a newcomer, in fact it can be quite difficult to get back in when you haven't visited a bit.

    Inevitably some some strong opinions will be expressed on some Cif posters though (BTH comes to mind?).

    Cif can be very frustrating, its inevitable that some people need to express that frustration, but you are right, we should engage with people as individuals, I'm sure some people at the Graun are quite human! Trolls, as the header on this page says, should be ignored.

  22. Morning All

    Great post here on the 9/11 conspiracy by someone called AkaSomethingElse.

    Hope I haven't been rude to new people here.

  23. LOL.

    Yes, that's great post.

    Of course we have all (well, most of us) been rude and offensive about the likes of Ultimathule and BiteTheHand. We might ask whether that's a good thing even if it is fairly inevitable that it will always happen at some level. Aside from the impoliteness of talking about people behind their backs it's probably quite correct to make a case for it being off-putting to newcomers.

    If I'm going to be rotten to someone, I'd much rather do it directly.

  24. On an unrelated note, Lulu has just been on Breakfast News. She's nearly 62 but she is still bloody gorgeous and I'd crawl over a queue of women 1/3 her age to get to her.

    Had to get that off my chest.

    As you were.

  25. Thank you for that image my Lord - Lulu grew up a few streets away from me - god I remember the Luvvers.

  26. LordS - yes, guilty of that. Sometimes it's very hard not to be but you are right, we should strive not to.

    Lulu who?

  27. Just Lulu, Thauma.

    The LULU Web Site

    Been singing since she was 14 and it's still a mystery how a voice that big can come from a girl that little.

    She's touring the UK with Anastasia and Chaka Khan shortly.

  28. At times like this I always forget .. it's probably on YouTube

    Lulu, Shout (1965)

  29. Antietam (Sharpsburg to the Southern cousins) was a horror, alright. The wikipedia page on it is one of the best references for it if you're interested.

    Sorry, Lord S, I don't get the Lulu thing at all, never have. Jenny Agutter though, now there's a lady I'll never stop pining after...

  30. Oh great! An excuse to post this again: sob

  31. You big soft sod, martillo.

    (Excuse me while I disappear for a quick blub myself)

  32. ...ít has to be pittypooty hutchy cutchy with the same guard holier than thou "coming to tea" who play the nasty games?...i´m dreaming!

    it´s "only a newspaper"...well..if...why do they behave like the centre of almighty than?

    Let me guess...this newspaper used to have another agenda...than pleasing spoiled kids,once!tfy

  33. I know, Lord S! Gets me every time and there's only one other scene that does that

  34. elementary_watson17 September, 2009 10:11

    LordS: I'd crawl over a queue of young women in their early twenties without caring where it would get me.

    I primarily know of Lulu as the woman who recorded "Relight My Fire" with Take That. I guess my age and indiscrimiate exposure to pop music in my younger days is showing.

  35. Feg that Tory Lulu - Elkie Brooks is a classy lassie and a better singer.

    And she don't go around shagging hairdressers.


  36. Another fine choice, martillo.

    Relight My Fire was always Take That's finest moment, watson you young whippernapper, but I suspect that might have been mainly down to Lulu giving the song a bit of presence.

  37. Jenny Agguter - Equus.

    No finer erotic film.

  38. Jenny Agutter - Walkabout. Sigh.
    Jenny Agutter - Logan's Run. Phwoar.
    Jenny Agutter - An American Werewolf in London. Oh I say...

  39. ...don't be such a fuzz pot...it´s only neoliberalism.

    caring for those who heard way too often ,they have to neglect abusive evidence to survive...till they lost them self...I know that too much submission to dysfunctional environments can lead to depression...who is mostly the avoidance of anger..as much as violence is the avoidance of sadness.
    greetings...your fuzz pot(who gives"a crap" about "investors" &their servants and seems...aspiring servants, giving a crap of me&others and only want my consumer profile for their profits!)tys

  40. Well I still fancy Sybil Fawlty...

  41. If Lulu or that other Thatcher supporter Cilly Black turned up here I would have a crisis of conscience.

    I would have to tell the pantomime dames to fuck off. But then rather than offend Montana I would fall on my sword and leave.

    Fair does to Andy who is a prolific and very good welcomer. Perhaps he should be allowed one special fuck off for every ten welcomes given out.


  42. @BW:

    Yep, me too. I'm of an age where I used to wonder about her and Polly... but best not go there on a family website, I suppose.

  43. I'd forgotten about Walkabout, Swifty. Good film.

    I love the internet. Every now and again someone pops up with a reference to something utterly brilliant that I'd completely forgotten existed.

  44. Best not Swifty, best not...

  45. for those wishing to read a quiet precice description of the generalised pleasing of abusing systems in a mad society.


  46. Wonders sometimes in here about the flogging noises to kill the fish!.

  47. Would it be too unwelcoming if I asked Anonymous what he was talking about?

    I mean it's hard enough knowing which Anonymous is which and whether one Anonymous post relates to any other Anonymous post. It'd help if they actually signed it with something that allowed us to track who is saying what.

  48. "....Gruen's place in the history of psychology can be summarized as follows. According to Freud, human beings are born with an innate tendency to destruction and violence; throughout his scholarly and clinical career, Prof. Gruen has challenged that assumption, arguing instead that at the root of evil lies self-hatred, a rage originating in a self-betrayal that begins in childhood, when autonomy is surrendered in exchange for the "love" of those who wield power over us.

    To share in that subjugating power, people create a false self, a pleasing-to-others image of themselves that springs from a powerful, deep-seated fear of being hurt, humiliated or abandoned. Gruen traces this pattern of over-adaptation, and the fate of those who resist the pressure to conform, through a number of case studies, sociological phenomena—from Nazism to Reaganomics—and literary works. The insanity of rage and numbness that this hyper-conformity produces, unfortunately, goes widely unrecognized precisely because it has become the cold, tough "realism" that modern society inculcates into its members and even admires....."

    Lost on the fish flogging though

    A.N. Anon

  49. Fine summary, I'm just confused about its relevance.

    But nowhere near as confused as I am about fish-flogging.

  50. Agree with Kizbot that some people take blogging too seriously by half. A site like this, or even CiF is supposed to be a relaxation and if possible a bit of fun.

    I don't know about anyone else but if I want the really serious stuff, I'll stay holed up at work or write under my own name in the Brussels Bulletin (where anything written reaches the attention of all the power brokers in the city because just everyone takes the magazine). Many of us are simply looking for a bit of relaxation not a battle of egos.

    I have no problem with newcomers or Guardian staff, or even the more controversial CiF posters popping up here. Some of them provide great entertainment and would even go down a treat in Brussels where we're used to all sorts.

    So have a nice day guys - mad busy for the moment.


  51. Bru - the following record of the Brussels Bulletin Blog section suggests that Montana should be a given the job as editor cos nobody reads or comments there!!

    If everbody takes reads and comments in the magazine - it suggests that there ain't much going on in Brussels apart from the usual quite corruption...

    A.N. Anon...

    The Brussels Bulletin Blog for the last few days.......

    September 17, 2009
    No stone unturned
    Police are investigating the latest in a series of thefts of paving stones from roads in Overijse and Hoeilaart. Approximately 60 slabs were removed last week and a further 100 have been missing since the beginning of the month. Each time, the thief has removed a small number from different streets, creating holes in roads and creating a risk to motorists, according to police. The paving slabs weigh around 10 kilos each, and the motive for removing them remains a mystery.
    Posted at 08:10 | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)

    September 16, 2009
    DIY speed camera
    A Flemish man was so fed up with motorists ignoring speed limits outside his home in Langemark, near Ypres (West Flanders), that he installed his own speed camera. Gerdy Vandevyvere said a driver who was going too fast could not tell the difference between his home-made device and the real thing. A local police spokesman said he could not place the camera permanently on a public road, but could do what he wanted on his own property. He added that it was having a positive effect in slowing down traffic.
    Posted at 10:18 | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)

    September 15, 2009
    Just put a bandaid on it
    The medical staff of The Red Devils — Belgium's national football team — has resigned, as the physicians have cited an inability to cope with the team's mentality. This news follows Belgium's recent poor showings during World Cup qualifying — a 5-0 defeat against Spain in early September and a 2-1 loss to Armenia last week. Armenia entered the match having scored just three goals in its previous seven qualifying matches. "They claim they're all injured. All this is accepted nowadays", one physician told VRT Radio. "... Fifteen years ago, you had to make sure they weren't hiding injuries".
    Posted at 15:49 | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)

    September 14, 2009
    No longer armed and dangerous
    A notorious Belgian arms dealer has been arrested in New York for allegedly attempting to smuggle fighter jet engines to Iran. Swashbuckling Jacques Monsieur, 56, reputedly known as ‘The Fox’ and ‘The Field Marshal’, was long pursued by various governments for shipping military supplies to trouble spots around the world. His arrest came after an elaborate sting: Monsieur was apparently working for the Iranian government in February when he contacted an undercover agent posing as an arms supplier. Officials say Iran’s ability to acquire sophisticated weaponry depends on middlemen like Monsieur operating shady companies around the world. Monsieur is said to be a suave veteran of Belgian military intelligence who breeds horses on a French estate, and spent two decades doing business in war zones.
    Posted at 08:31 | Permalink | Comments (1) | TrackBack (0)

    September 10, 2009
    Not the top of everyone's charts
    A song by rockers Clouseau celebrating Belgium in all its mixed-up glory has enraged Flemish separatists N-VA, who say it is an act of propaganda. Clouseau are the most popular band in Flanders, and their single, Leve België (‘Long live Belgium’), is a French and Dutch language plea for unity. But N-VA leader Bart De Wever says he won’t buy the record, and his party colleague Geert Bourgeois, who is Flemish deputy prime minister, says it is “backward looking and paints a false portrait of the situation”.
    Posted at 22:28 | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)

  52. For gods sake somebody - get MAM to post in the Brussels Bull.

    Anon 5

  53. Hang on, I thought I was Anon 5!

  54. no your not Anon 5 your anon 6 you twerp.

  55. I'm the real anon poster here.

    A.N. Anon

  56. 'They're all here now.....'

    observed the voice of caution cuttingly

    'Ghosts of Poltergeist?'

    posed Steven Spielberg's bastard offspring

    'But it's not the TV screen they're coming out of now is it?' replied the all seeing eye.....

  57. Montana - the most unwelcoming feature of this otherwise wonderful site is the knowledge that you simultaneously run the secretive Amex non public phonebox blog site in parallel.

    The occasional invitation from regulars to take a phone call is far from friendly and may well have been at the root of the billip fiasco.

    Know what I am talking about Kiz/Bru et al ???

    Understandable to those invited to post there it may be, but to those on the outside...

    You may, in the longer term, be making a rod for your own back.


  58. 'Hmm a clique within a clique.....'

    mused the cynic

    'how quaint..'

    'Not if you wear a tinfoil hat its not'

    responded the speaker of inconvenient truths....

  59. Anon6 raises a mute point.

  60. I hope I make the moderators from the Guardian feel utterly unwelcome for the way they administer the same to other people. Same for same.
    The nepotism, favouritism, partial decision making, social apartheid, and mobbing, resulting in account disappearances as well as the usual censorship that makes the Guardian look more and more like all the other rags.
    Perhaps mostly for depriving the rest of us from checking the previous posts of the disappeared in threads.
    Everyone can lose out because of the transgressions of the cabal of a few "moderators".
    The Guardian. Moderating the truth.

  61. Try moot point A.N.Anon


  62. the real anonymous17 September, 2009 12:37

    No, mute as in dumb.

  63. ...mute is the word Anon6,becuase noone will reply,anon6 will be ignored..he/she should well be "mute" for what the attention he/she is given.tys

  64. unwelcoming real anonymous.


  65. what exactly do you people take "seriously"...beside "sound cool noises/attitudes"?tys

  66. anon...thanks...I could point out to the last pages of Alexander Lowen´s book about narcissism...describing 20 years ago (out of memory)how the need to appear not innocent like the humiliated child..but belonging to those..having fun,being smart....neglecting the inner self to fit this image!...I remember Laing´s smile in such moment...reminding me...those who see,annoys those who don't want to see!tys

  67. ...and i will tell you if you are wondering why i ask the question...you take "yourselfs" seriously and nothing else,...tys

  68. What is the legal position? Our data hidden yet not removed by deleted accounts? Data Protection Act etc.

    As authors we retain copyright under the Berne Convention. What we write into blogs remains our copyright property.


  69. elementary_watson17 September, 2009 13:26

    Just dropping in from the sushi-thread (it sounded rather vanilla when it was referenced here yesterday; had I but known how utterly perverted it was!)

    Brusselsexpats: I was in Bruges last Christmas, and I saw chocolate penises there, even with sperm (white chocolate) dripping from the glans. (Since you wondered yesterday whether only boobs exist.)

  70. Anonymous said...

    ...and i will tell you if you are wondering why i ask the question...you take "yourselfs" seriously and nothing else,...tys
    17 September, 2009 12:52

    I did not write this...so,what does it mean?tys

  71. whoever you are you have not the right to sign in my name. tys

  72. I think this is a Guardian thread run by Guardian employees. busted. Not coming back.

  73. 'Hmm am i spartacus?'

    posed the hero

    'No you can't be, i'm spartacus'

    replied the gladiator..

    'No you aren't, i'm spartacus'

    said the thinker herself...

  74. Popping in before work. Quick clarification on a couple of points:

    If a newbie comes along and is deliberately irritating, I have no problem whatsoever with other people being rude right back. I'm talking above about newbies who are perfectly polite/reasonable. Even if they reveal a Cif username that is someone you've disagreed with. I tried to avoid using specific names above, but for example, if MAM came over here and was polite and decent, I would hope that others would respond in kind and not say, "I don't like what you post on Cif, so fuck off."

    And I have no problem with telling people who post anonymously to fuck off. Most of the people who post anonymously do so because they are specifically wanting to be wind-up merchants. No fucking patience with that whatsoever. Got that Anon 6? I'm sure you know how to e-mail me, if you really want to discuss that.

  75. This is brilliant, really it is. A whole host of random posts from at least 3 fairly easily identifiable "anonymous" sources, and now you're all three falling out with each other?

    Come on folks, like the lady said, play nice!

  76. Not very welcoming either Montana.


  77. ...'you shall know those unfit for poweer who use it too powerfully',voltaire was correct!,no person who want to say his mind has be able to be stopped,whoever want to stop him,look behind the hole to find the rabbit little Alice,..tys

  78. Thanks for the clarification(s) Montana.

    Anon 6

  79. I don't have the faintest idea what the anonymous posters are on about.

    R.: I think this is a Guardian thread run by Guardian employees.

    You're having a laugh, right?

  80. I don't feel unwelcome Montana you are welcome to tell me to go tickle (or fuck off if you prefer) any time you wish.

    I will follow Swifty's plea (polite request) to play nice.

    the real Anon6.

    tys - if you are having a problem with identity theft open a google account then no one else can blog here with a the red identifier as used by Montana/SwiftyBoy/LordS etc.

  81. @puzzledturge:

    I don't have the faintest idea what the anonymous posters are on about.

    I do. Anon6/Anon 6 is pissed off at Montana and has been for some time now. A.N. Anon sometimes posts anonymously to remind us of our responsibilities and the harmful effect that our words here can sometimes have. TYS seems to think someone is copying her (why anyone would do that is beyond me) and that Montana is wielding her power too, err, powerfully, and "the cynic" is falling about laughing at all the anonymous posters falling out over "moot/mute" etc while accusations of imposters fly thick n fast.

    Anyone care to "top that"?

  82. I'm imagining a hill of crucified posters, as far as the eye can seem, all shouting ...

    "No, I'm Anonymous"

  83. Ah, thanks for that, Swifty. Your insight (and patience) are world-renowned. Or should be, if they aren't.

  84. Swifty.

    I didn't read Anon6/ Anon 6 as pissed off with Montana but thought you probably had the measure of the rest of it.

    Be good if the cynic wasn't falling over at his own jokes for once.

    All those unhappy here could move over to the Brussels Bulletin blog - is it pre-modded? It would be unforgivable if some mischievous sod started posting as Bru!


  85. Lord S

    I'm anonymous and so's my wife!

  86. elementary_watson17 September, 2009 14:51

    Swifty: I don't know if you*re correct with your assessment of the anonymouses gripes (I'm pretty sure you will be anonymously corrected by some), you really seem to have made a really great effort to understand what is going on.

    Or else, you're a Jedi master when it comes to intellectual bluffing, in which case I bow even more to your elite bluffing abilities.

  87. @deano:

    I didn't read Anon6/ Anon 6 as pissed off with Montana...

    Ah OK, 'nuff said.

  88. to make it clear...someone in here finds it "funny" to use my nic "tys"...instead of signing with his own...I simply don't want to engage more with google as needed,that´s why I use this anonymous solution.

    games...more games....but where is the bread?

    ridiculing people seems a virus wider spread than any other...theses days!

    I don't think...it´s THAT innocent...as it´s "only a blog!"....it serves a puprose...tonot truly consider the arguments proposed by making flogging noises.only dead fish flows with the flow!

  89. well...that was easy to figure out..me..tys..sorry...but..it should be clear to everybody with a bit of decernement sense...the difference between the "mockery's" and when..I type!

    I suppose I talk to adults!?

  90. cynical passive aggressive attitudes...how comes that reminds me the games played by the guard lot?tys

  91. Flogging a dead fish
    Which ends up getting eaten
    From a naked girl.

  92. elementary_watson17 September, 2009 15:56

    Thanks, thauma.

  93. some dead fish get´s thrown into the pond..to make clapping noises,to avoid people to see the naked truth.tys

  94. quite the different thread today,,i was the anon who asked if tfy was related to Hou121,,and as is common knowledge i was the irritated "posterx"
    on the waddya,,since that incident (for which i wrote privately to montana to "apologise" i dont think i have posted here,,

    3potato4 has not been responsible for any other anon posts,, just so you know,,and has not been responsible for any other sock puppetry anywhere
    at any time

    i dont post much here because of the caustic suspicious attitudes of the "anti Matt,,Georgina,,Bella,,et al" posters,,
    the inner workings of the GUstaff analysed by removing the tin foil hats usually sounds crazy and egoistically childish TO ME,, some presumably find their analysis and accusations

    i did not ask for a phone box key way back when as i instinctively thought it a bad idea,,bad for me the individual and by extension bad for the community,,did PosterX get discussed in the phonebooth,,i dont care if i was,, but i do realise that any subsequent posts from me then have a different appearance for me than they might to someone else who had been party to confidential chatter,,just as the anti guardian
    discussions do to me,, i know i am seeing an incomplete picture,,the phone booth is a negative for me,,

    on your average day TheUntrusted is one of the greatest little pubs on the englishspeaking net

    thanks Montana for the effort

  95. ...and again,some fool think to make it funny,what is the "dead fish" game you play,fool..?,why i cannot be leave alone here to join into the play,when you fool think youself so wise..tys

  96. I will stay anonymous and will not return but if you like you can call me Frank. I have not posted on this site before but I have followed this blog and others for a number of months. I offer this as friendly advice because I detect that your site is approaching a tipping point. I know it probably doesn't feel like it but I know the signs. I once ran a blog myself which disintegrated under pressures which you are about to be subject to.

    I think the first post today is the problem. I understand the 'unpleasantness' addressed to unsigned posters. I would advise you to delete any unidentified posts. It does not take much to simply add a 'signature' to the end of a post. It's not even necessary to sign up for a google account. A name or initial is enough.

    The hostility aimed at Guardian staff is more problematic. I assume it mainly refers to the attitude displayed by Hank Scorpio and Monkeyfish. To be honest I can understand their position. They are unwelcome there and their continued banning and rebanning shows CIF up for what it is. When CIF employees come on here and play nice, ignore the contradictions of the place and try to skip over the Guardian's facile attempts to retain a reputation as decent and open minded, I can see why they would be angry.

    Both seemed to be warning you not to get too close or cosy with CIF staff. I urge you to heed this advice. Indepedent blogs are a vital resource. It is worrying that this one is becoming too parasitic on CIF. I have been in a similar place and I can assure you that you are in a vulnerable position. Feel free to completely ignore me.

  97. Afternoon all

    find these endless obscure anon messages a bit confusing and self indulgent so tend to scroll past them. Take your point Montana, about being unnecessarily mean to people - try not to do it on the whole, unless, unless...

    LordS - always thought you were a true gent...

  98. Blimey, this is getting like some kind of Dan Brown novel or something. Wheels within wheels, posters who aren't who they appear to be, deus ex machina's dropping by to offer words of wisdom... can it be long before there's a frantic roof-top chase across fogbound London Town with Tom Hanks and his remarkable hairpiece in search of a piece of the One True Cross or something?

  99. Swifty - nah, the quality of writing is much better.

    Anyone who's interested - The Toynbee paedo thread is still alive!

  100. Thanks, sheff. That means a lot to me.

    ... so please skip over the posts where I'm lusting after Lulu ;-)

  101. LordS

    Lusting is a healthy pastime - even after Lulu. Personally I rather favour the youthful Keanu Reeves - I know he can't act and is thick as a plank but he was incredibly beautiful.

    Please don't tell me T Hanks wears a hair piece...

  102. LordS

    ...even with your trousers down in another place....!

  103. WRT the phonebooth - ages ago when it was first set up, I was allowed in, then one day I wasn't. That's perfectly fine, it's your blog and your rules. I did email Montana to ask what happened but sadly got no reply. *shrug*

  104. Word on the street is that Hanks has had a hair transplant.
    Personally, I think the money would have been better spent on 'How to be nice to people' lessons.

  105. Obviously, I live on a very glitzy street.

  106. WTF has been going on here? Anyhow,looking forward to the official list of exemptees from this compulsary courtesy rule or are there no exceptions? Presumably BTH, a certain Finn, Tony Blair etc. could turn up and be welcomed with open arms? Just as long as they're polite, eh? No worries.

    Fuck this for a game of dead fish. I'm takin my 'abuse' elsewhere.

  107. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Tonto (disguised as a door) gets his knob shot off.

    Hi everyone

    A special hello to all the lurkers and anons who hang round these parts. o/

    Don't just lurk, join in now and again! If someone says something you don't like, say so! But hiding behind "anon" is a bit of a big girl's blousy thing to do really.

    TYS - j'ai l'impression que, dans la mesure ou l'anglais n'est pas votre langue maternelle, vous avez peut etre des problemes a suivre ce qu'on dit ici. Des fois on parle de choses tres seriuex. Mais, il faut savoir que le plupart n'est que la rigolade - des blagues bases sur des fils de discussion sur CiF par example, ou bien sur ceux qui font des commentaires bizarres.

    Surtout, faut pas que vous le preniez pour vous. C'est avec plaisir que je vous trouve parmi nous, a participer a nos betises. :o)

  108. Oh Piscean Simian One.

    If you take your abuse elsewhere, what will the masochists like me do? I need it.... don't leave me....argh!!

  109. Et tu, Sealion?

    Seriously, what's the deal with being "nice" to people. Along with hypocrisy, it's the secret weapon of the middle classes, smile to your face as they knife you in the back. Being "nice" comes a poor second to being honest in my book.

    As for Bella and Jessica, they're grown ups. They work on a site that encourages robust debate, so they should be able to give as good as they get on here. They don't need protection or special treatment.

    And what the hell happened to this site being a beacon of free speech anyway, or is it only free, like Cif, within certain parameters?

    Anonymous Frank got it right for me. This site is in danger of becoming parasitical on Cif. It's all got a little too cosy.

    Kiz, if you ever got banned, you might change your mind about me taking it all too seriously. You might even get angry about it and nurse a sense of injustice at the inconsistent standards applied.

    Usual disclaimer - I deserved to get banned. I realise that. But I didn't deserve the persecution that other banned posters seem to have escaped (eg Silenthunter/UncleVanya/Tiergarten or HappyAmerican/skiergolfer/JohnQPublic/SandyBurglar).

    Carry on...

  110. 'GENESIS of a Dying Green Paradigm?'

    posed the cynic

    On the First Day

    'First there were the warmers and the coolers......and the coolers are starting to look seriously cool now?'

    On the Second Day

    'Then there were the 'climate anthropogenics' versus the 'climate naturalists'

    posed the cynic

    'and the whole concept of assessing human agency in changing climate in a geologically tiny period of time looks increasingly suspect'

    On the Third DAY

    'The there were those that focused just on CO2 as a driver, and others that looked at a range of other causation, from cosmic rays, water vapour, clooud cover, and the like'

    posed the wise fool

    'and it's clear that the mechanisms are NOT fully understood.... '

    'On the Fourth day'

    'There were those that emphasis the responsiveness or positive feedback of the climate temperature to various forcing factors, the alarmists or 'catastrophists', who are reaching tipping point in rhetoric.....'

    posed the wise fool

    and others that emphasis the negative feedback and relative stability of the system.. which given the role of oceans and other factors in mediating changes in air temperatures.. looks far more probable'

    'On the Fifth day

    'There were those who have faith in computer models methodology'

    posed the cynic

    ' and the others that wonder how the ''real scientists'' WEIGHT the computer models according to the relative importance of each of the massive number of factors determining climate

    ON the Sixth Day

    'There were the lacunae:

    those that have no explanation for the end of the ice ages using an anthropogenic theory (neolithic patio heaters anyone?)

    posed the cynic

    'versus those that emphasized that the planet has ALWAYS gone through cycles, both short and long-term, that are barely understood by the multi-disciplinary faith called climatology'

    On the Seventh day

    'There were those who considered how green was their valley in their green and pleasant land'

    posed the cynic

    'and there were those who saw how the idealism of the liberal left was being milked by the bankrupt agency of the corporatist state in its attempt to re-engineer the tax system via ''environmentally friendly'' taxes'

    'Dumoletion is imminent...

    Love to the mods'

  111. 'What a fantastic thread'

    posed the real anonymous cynic

    'and so welcoming:

    ''And I have no problem with telling people who post anonymously to fuck off''

  112. 'Anonymity Denial?'

    posed the wise fool

    'isn't that bad for the human environment?'

  113. Anonymous

    I wasn't talking about the Bulletin blog which is useless but the letters page in the magazine itself which were, at least at one time, rather exciting. Anyone who has had a stand-up fight with the Commission/Parliament/Vlaams Belang etc. has ended up on the letter pages.

    Have you actually read the magazine as opposed to the online section?

  114. FYI GreenGravyTrain just posted that way too long "posed the cynic" ramble on WDYWTTA. In case anyone wants to know (maybe LordSummerIsle is ready with the pineapple).

  115. Looking at his profile, it's a new username, started today and all he posts is "posed the..." comments. I think you're gonna need more than one pineapple.

  116. Hihihihihi

    "I wonder if life would be so interesting without "posed the cynic" around?"

    posited the poster

    "Food for thought or a Kentuck Fried Conspiracy Theory?"

    wondered the mad old fool

  117. Hm... I've been convinced by Hank and Monkeyfish to an extent - why be polite if you really dislike someone? I can't see that people from the Guardian are particularly deserving of abuse (matt seaton apart) but then I didn't think billp did either (at least he had the odd interesting thing to say). I'm not even rude to that 'posed the cynic' bore, though I'm seriously tempted...

  118. Hi Hank, thought you might appreciate these:


    Smiling Faces Sometimes

    Party on, Untrusted...

  119. No pineapple today, but I've just cooked a rice pudding if that's any help

    (Very nice it was too!!)

  120. martillo

    Being nice isn't always a compassionate thing to do with some people, either... ;o)

  121. I agree with SwiftyBoy that it's becoming like a Dan Brown novel - damn the guy is on my brain - I bet all those anons are really the luminati in disguise.

    Talking of which I found my copy of The Lost Symbol in my postbox this evening, so I shall be lost to the world - on top of Merlin returning - bliss.

    And - due to visit the ancient castle of Gaasbeek Saturday where they are holding an exhibition on medieval, gothic, haunted castles and their legends. I most definitely will not be of this world for a few weeks.

    Oh yes, and I forgot to mention to Anon that the reason not much happens on-line in expat Brussels is because the vast majority of people are actually out enjoying life.

  122. Bru

    "Oh yes, and I forgot to mention to Anon that the reason not much happens on-line in expat Brussels is because the vast majority of people are actually out enjoying life."

    Harsh but true. Prolly cos the Belgians have a proper work/life balance too, which means they aren't to knackered to pick up the tv remote, much less go out and do stuff, by the time they get home of an evening. :o)

  123. This comment has been removed by the author.

  124. I'm not sure that rice pudding will have quite the desired effect.

    It's all got a bit odd here today.

    Hope you enjoy your book brusselsexpats. Not a fan of dan brown myself, though I have read his other books and they are entertaining enough. Got a bit carried away on amazon yesterday and ordered 11 books. And theres still more I am tempted to order now. (All second hand - 1p plus 2.75 post, bargain and they are usually in pretty good nick). Hmm better step away from the computer :-s

  125. Probably I'm going to regret throwing my tuppence in, but here goes.

    I reckon that most of the Graun employees who post over here are working stiffs like the rest of us. My guess is that modding, especially, doesn't pay a lot and is a fairly thankless task carried out by people who want to keep their jobs. I'd think that I would have jumped at the chance to do a job like that on a site like the Guardian's if I were just out of school and looking for a job in journalism.

    The reality is probably not very glamourous.

    So it's fair enough to abuse the mods (or rather the moderation policy/function) in the course of their jobs on the Graun site but when they post here (if it really is the mods, of course!) they seem to have a good sense of humour and I think I detect a certain sympathy with some of our views on Cif and some of its writers/staff that of course they cannot explicitly express if they want to keep their jobs.

    Same goes for Jessica and Bella, who were gracious enough to post a link to Montana's brilliant 11/9 piece.

    What I'm really hoping for is that one of them will one day find a new job and then come on here and tell us what they really think!

    And besides ... I think we spend so much time castigating Cif as opposed to the Mail or the Tele precisely because it's far and away the best news site out there, despite its myriad faults.

    None of this precludes rubbishing someone's post if they post rubbish, but you know ... ball, man etc.

    'Course I say this as someone who has not really felt the lash of modding.... And MF please don't leave us.

  126. How very odd - I went back to the WDYWTTA thread and GreenGravyTrain's comment is gone without a trace and when I checked his profile, though the name is still there, he now has "This person has not yet left any comments" when before he had maybe 5-10.

  127. Martillo

    "Tough love" - hehehe. Yeah, a bit like that, I guess. Not that I am very good at using tough love with my own lad. It usually only lasts about 5 minutes before I cave...

  128. Hi BB: Sometimes I get a bit knackered but it's a fact that Brussels is a city where it's practically mandatory to socialise as well as work. You can't really get away with "not being in the mood".

    Which is why I'm not on here as often as I'd like and usually at weekends only before and after I've been out - I do like coming in after being to theatre for example. I find it unwinds me.

    Thought PrincessChipChops raised some really good points on the Waddya thread. The next above-the-liner?

    OK - off to bed with Dan Brown now......


  129. Night Bru

    Enjoy yourself with Dan! ;o)

  130. Tha princess always raises good points, and yes, she should go ATL.

    Cuddling up to Dan Brown, though ... ewwww.

  131. I'm just the same with my dog, BB.
    I'll be cuddling up to Val McDermid myself. Night all!

  132. Evening all. Not been back long, made something to eat & put on an Egyptology program; it's a repeat on one of the satellite stations, but had to do a double take, as the presenter looked just like Aly used to, before he shaved off the beard.

  133. Hehehehe - evening GP01

    I am watching Manhunter, which if people don't know was an 80s prequel to Silence of the Lambs. Superb film, no matter how many times you watch it...

  134. Martillo - ooh, the new one? I am somewhat of a McDermit fan meself.

  135. BB - why the evil laugh prefacing your post? (Like it though!)

  136. Just imagining GP01 confusing the TV presented for Ally.

  137. Sounds good BB. I liked Silence of the Lambs; I thinnk Jodie Foster adds to any film she's in, & Red Dragon, but thought Hannibal wasn't anywhere near as good.

    Shame Aly only pops in here occasionally or I'd have taken the mickey about him doing anything for a free holiday in the sun (putting on an American accent & presenting TV shows like) :)

  138. Honestly, it's on Discovery Knowledge at the moment. When he's got his baseball cap on, he really does look like Aly's old ATL photo.

  139. Don't think I've seen the new beardless photie - does he still have the wicked glint in his eye?

  140. thauma:

    Ally’s photo was updated while that biscuit accidents thread was going on.

    I made a particularly witty comment about it, but no one seemed to notice :-(

    Can’t comment on the guy on Discovery Knowledge, as I’m one of those Luddite weirdoes who doesn’t own a TV.

    Anyway, time for bed...

  141. Haven't seen him yet

    I will have to take your word for it, GP01, and go back to my film... soz...

  142. Andy - me neither! We are the strong, the incorruptible, the ones who don't know what anyone else is talking about....

    Goodnight from me too.

  143. Wow! I dunno what just happened when I refreshed the page, but I can now see my icon photo on here! w00t!

    (That photo was taken in Hamburg nearly 3 yrs ago btw.)

  144. I'm gonna have to turn in too. All this 6am malarky is getting to me. At least I get to stay in bed til 7 tomorrow (Hurray!)

    But then I have a day's worth of prosecuting bloody traffic offences (Booooo!)

    Nighty night all. Hugs to everyone. Even the lurkers! x

  145. since i have posted about politeness,,actually about rudness,,well actually about exageration,,well actually about extreme and hyperbolic interpretations of comments and articles i would like to clarify that i have no problem with intelligent and rational comments whatever their emotional color,,

    offence is more often taken rather than given
    "even if we spoke with one voice we would still hear with different ears"

    my favourite deletion
    i really cant hear or see the malevolent agendas
    ascribed to cif staff that seem so obvious to others

    BB, i might lurk less and challenge more if i were as good at it as you are,,but i am not

    hugs are good :)

  146. People
    Get your icons here.
    M'kay ?

  147. Anon Anon Anariston18 September, 2009 01:18

    Y'all know the drill: first there's a revolution, then there's the betrayal of the revolution. Only a matter of time.

  148. ok...as I see that the guard licking goes on, during it´s the most normal that someone uses my nic...I am leaving!..enjoy yourself...you are a part of the problem...not his solution...
    "I would have take the mod job myself...!"well..that much to aspiring holier than thou "proletariat"!...I think...this is the main aim in here...so...enjoy your kind of friends...you fit in very well playing nasty games with those confusing this place with a real critical one.tys

  149. Some thoughts on rudeness.

    I can't see the point, being rude won't bring someone around to your point of view, that's a definite!

    To me its a waste of energy anyway and I don't have much of that these days. So if I disagree I just say so!

    Doesn't guarantee that I won't get rude, angry reply, but rudeness is more likely to guarantee that.

    I don't think rudeness is a proletarian characteristic any more than politeness is a bourgeois one. I do think thatthe image of working class rudeness is a bourgeois one. I also think working people are more honest and loyal to each other, a lot of middle class people will shaft each other at the drop of a hat if it suits their purposes.

    Workers were at one time forced to be polite to the middle class, this was deference a word I'd expunge from the English language if that could get rid of that nasty concept.

    But respect (especially self respect) is different. My grandmother had self respect and pride by the shedload she was as good as anybody else and knew it. She was loyal, hard working and scrupulously honest and nobody's fool.

    If she thought you were wrong she'd tell you so and you stayed told! But rude - never!

    She was a miner's wife.

  150. my grandma told me...they confuse the children of god with wild ducks to shoot....

    as long..the one abused get´called "rude"(prove?????)during other are busy getting mods instead of seeing the abuse(the position amongst "those" in the nest...not the vocation of preserving fairness!)...as long those who insult people in the guard cant be reported...but the one insulted get´s kicked..I think...you deserve a society who is full of control tools avoiding facing social division....your "sense of value" is.."shut down when power talks!"...England reminds me Germany in the 30...entertainment to hell.

  151. Anon -
    I think you deserve a society who is full of control tools avoiding facing social division...your 'sense of value' is ...'shut down when power talks'

    With all due respect that interpretation of my post is just plain wrong! Calling a fascist bastard a fascist bastard isnt rude - its accurate! Calling someone an idiot just because they disagree with you is rude and it prevents you from achieving your aim, which should be to persuade them of the correctness of your argument.

    People are always name calling quite reasonable posters idiots (or worse) Cif and on such threads nothing useful is achieved. A good debate does sometimes achieve a meeting of minds. How else do we finally end a society that calls on us to 'shuttup when power talks'? A post sprinkled with swear words and internet SHOUTING is rude and is less effective than one that simply opposes the argument of power.

    Rudeness, in short, is a sign of weakness, It has nothing to do with opposing oppression which I know from longer experience than I care to admit can be achieved very effectively without a single swear word and without raising your voice. Level headed opposition is a sign of strength.

    Hopefully you will learn that one day.

  152. In France..we say MERDE!...when we smell shit!
    we don't turn around it...finding"nice words" for it,and I wonder if you find any society..more willing to debate intellectually!
    ...18 years of Cromwellian bigotry without dance,songs,theatre and swearwords has leave long lasting traces,obviously!

    I love Purcell for his rejoicing after all that "well-mannered curtain spying madness".I love to hug people in joy...and I love to call abuses abuses.

    I still wait for something CONCRETE..you found "rude"...that we can argue about!

    I find rude...that manipulative games don't get seen for what they are...VIOLENT...and I find passive aggressivity VIOLENT blaming the victim to be so "unsmart" to feel the violence.THAT is rude in my eyes...FACTS..not mannerism.

  153. Anon - Yell 'shit' often enough will no good reason and no-one will listen!

    Opinions differ, some opinions eg opinions that are racist sexist homophobic are just plain unacceptable and deserve a robust reply - fair enough! Such people are unlikely to have their minds changed.

    Thats not what I am talking about, I am talking about discussions on different forms of feminism, arguments as to whether the Labour Party can redeem itself after 12 years of NuLabour. When posters start calling such differing opinions (on both sides) 'pathetic' or 'rubbish' or call those expressing those opinions 'stupid' or 'idiotic'. usually without even an attempt to explain why - that is rude!

  154. Yes, Elkie Brooks IS a much better singer. For me the best female singer to come out of the U.K. Not very well known here in the U.S, and thats a shame. American audience would love her.

  155. well...I am willing to go each point preciously through in the deepness...

  156. #In France..we say MERDE!...when we smell shit!
    we don't turn around it...finding"nice words" for it,and I wonder if you find any society..more willing to debate intellectually!
    ...18 years of Cromwellian bigotry without dance,songs,theatre and swearwords has leave long lasting traces,obviously!#

    "What can he know of England who only England knows?" Takes a Frenchman to cut through the puritan, bourgeois fetishism of politeness.

    Control words and you control thought. Ban words and you ban forms of expression.

    you've swallowed the great Middle-class encyclopaedia of etiquette.

    Ever wonder who wrote it and why? posed the cynical banana.

    Was it to keep grubby elbows off the table? posed the overripe melon

  157. Those pleasing to above,and kicking down...have no inner centre!