08 September 2009

Daily Chat 08/09/09

The Russians defeated the Mongols and Tatars at the Battle of Kulikovo in 1380. Michelangelo's David was unveiled in 1504. The first six matches of the Football League were played in 1888. Galveston, Texas, was devastated by a category 4 hurricane in 1900. Eight thousand people were killed. The Severn Bridge was opened by Queen Elizabeth II in 1966 and Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any crimes he may have committed while in office in 1974.

People born today: Richard I (1157), Antonín Dvoràk (1841), Siegfried Sassoon (1886), Harry Secombe (1921), Peter Sellars (1925), Patsy Cline (1932), Michael Frayn (1933), and Virna Lisi (1937). It is International Literacy Day.


  1. Birthday party went well. The boy who'd never been invited to one ended up being here from 1-5:30 pm! Good thing today was a holiday.

  2. elementary_watson08 September, 2009 08:05

    Inunashonel litrassi dey?

    Cohnd sii teh inpotens off tihs ...

  3. Ahhh - Mike Read and Tanya Gold. It's going to be a good day on Cif.

  4. @thauma:

    Ah yes, but MacShane, Monbiot, Tatchell and Toynbee - it could be a very annoying day on CiF too.

    Happy birthday Mad Jack by the way, wherever you are.

  5. I am going to try not to read MacShane in an effort to keep my blood pressure down. I did read Polly's this morning and, while it's infected with her usual viruses, actually wasn't too bad. She's even invited people to comment!

  6. Blimey. PT's opened up the doors of the ivory tower has she?

    From the standfirst, it seems it's "Labour's last chance" again, but the party won't have the courage to listen to PT's owlish pronouncements. Correct?

  7. By the way, did anyone watch the Beatles programming on BBC2 on Saturday night? Particularly all that footage of their first tour of the US on the Ed Sullivan Show, I'd never seen it before, what an eye-opener it was - some fascinating footage of the band behind the scenes, Ringo came across as a bit of lad back then.

  8. I hate Denis McShane!

    The man is the product of a marriage 'twixt toad and jellyfish.

  9. Hugh Muir's got the only sensible article.

  10. That fat headed buffoon MacShane could actually increase support for the BNP.

  11. LordS:

    *I hate Denis McShane!*

    You and everyone else who’s commented, as far as I can see.


    *Hugh Muir's got the only sensible article*

    Agreed. It’s just a shame he’s only there through nepotism. Everyone knows he’s Frank’s son, right?

  12. (FX: Robert Robinson)

    So, nepotism. Is it an ancient Nepalese method of making pots, a style of dress favoured by military dictators, or the only way of getting a job at The Guardian?

    Over to you, Patrick ...

  13. Weird thing, the BNP. As a nation (and probably because of our peculiar electoral system), we don't tend to vote in large numbers for smaller parties at general election time. It's a wasted vote unless lots of other people do the same. And when you're casting your vote, you obviously never know who's voting for whom - so the safe option is to opt for one of the "big two" (or maybe the Lib Dems if you're feeling bold).

    I'd hazard a guess that there are a lot of people in Britain who are secretly quite a bit more racist (well, anti-Muslim/Bangladeshi/Pakistani) than their national voting record ever shows, frankly. I hear it all the time and from some surprising quarters, not just from what you might term "the usual suspects".

    And I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

  14. Swifty, sadly I suspect that you're right. However, I also think that if those people heard what the BNP's policies actually are, most would not vote for them.

    They might moan about immigrants taking jobs and housing, but wouldn't want their mate who happens to be black or brown (and who can take a joke, knows some of the best Paki jokes himself, eh) to be rounded up and deported.

  15. Swiftyboy - I think you are dead right about that. I know of a few people who are now quite open in their support for the BNP. Quite a few are middle class fed up Tories who see Cameron as too 'left' (mon Dieu!).

    I was at a mates house the other week with a group of ladies - having wine and nibbles as we do - and we were talking about the election and who the hell do you vote for - this bird just pipes up bold as can be that she is voting BNP. My mum nearly choked on a pretzel. And this girl is an IFA - so well off. It is frightening that now they are getting more legitimacy their supporters are coming out of the woodwork.

    She refused to believe they would deport people born here but she says she does not care if they 'sent back' anyone who has arrived in the last ten years!

  16. @princesschipchops:

    Interesting, because I was going to respond to thauma with something along the lines of "the BNP seem to do well in areas with higher than average (or perceived to be higher) levels of Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigration and settlement" and I was wondering whether the "natives" were really acting out of a deeply-held and sincere racism, or whether they just didn't like their "new neighbours" much.

    But your experience suggests it's a bit more wide-spread than that.

  17. swiftyboy - It did shock me because Sheffield always seems a really well integrated city to me. To be fair though most other people I know who profess to support them do live in areas with higher amounts of immigration 'issues' - my mum used to live in Ossett and quite a few people we knew around there and in Dewsbury especially were vocal in their support.

    The other person I know who says they might vote for them lives in an area of Reading that does have pockets of high amounts of immigrants. But all of these people are well off professional types and ex Tory voters. Not the WWC the press love to paint all BNP supporters as.

    I do think you are right though that their support generally comes from areas with high immigrant communities. Although I was shocked by Barnsley - being a Barnsley lass - because it does not have high immigrant numbers - I dont understand their win there.

  18. elementary_watson08 September, 2009 12:31

    Choking on a pretzel has to be the most embarassing way to die, I guess; it would put one in a line with George W. Bush, and to fail at something he succeeded at (surviving a pretzel attack) would really suck.

  19. Oddly, a bloke I know quite well, an educated and successful chap whose parents came here from the West Indies in the 60s, is very anti-Muslim. He doesn't like their "values", reckons they're "anti-British" etc etc.

    He recently said to me that, if Griffin really knew his game and was looking to make the BNP more palatable to people in general, he'd admit its "generic" racism was wrong, close off that area of its policy, sack those who think anyone with a non-white skin is immediately deportable, and focus much more closely on "the Muslims".

    I reminded him of the vexed history and status of Catholics in this country in previous centuries, and that you could see a parallel with the fear and mistrust of "Muslims" nowadays, but he wasn't really interested in all that. He just doesn't like those he thinks of as "Muslims".

  20. If Griffin goes on question time it will be a win win situation for him If he is shouted down he will be a victim. If he is given a hearing he may persuade some people.
    There is a lot of support building out there as some of us have noticed.
    Some second and third generation Asians in this area, not Muslims, are becoming almost sympathetic owing to an influx of immigrants. Disturbing that.

  21. The people who are most vocal about immigrants are often from a previous wave of immigrants; thus the Roma families in Glasgow are often heavily criticised for failing to fit in by their neighbours of South Asian descent.

    That said, it's the bubbling under white racism which remains the main problem. One of the new mums at our youngest's school - the Gaelic school - said to a friend of ours, 'Great school - no Pakis'

  22. elementary_watson08 September, 2009 15:12

    From what weird place did iwaspassingby come? Look at Ally's latest article, this person's behaviour is mind-boggling to say the least.

    And where do those recommendations come from?

  23. Regurgitating the long discredited claim that DV is the largest cause of mortality in the world for 19-44 yr-old women should have rung some warning bells. I see BiteTheHand praised the comments, but did not address that particular issue. He does seem to have a pathological need to patronise radfems and attack AllyF.

  24. Hey elementary_watson

    From what weird place did iwaspassingby come? Look at Ally's latest article, this person's behaviour is mind-boggling to say the least.

    And where do those recommendations come from?

    Someone said she's from Cath's blog, which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

    Funnily enough I just nailed her on the recommendations...

  25. ... and Jay nailed her on her bullshit stats

  26. elementary_watson08 September, 2009 16:14

    Okeliedokelie, your patriarchal conditioning is showing by assuming iwaspassingby to be a "she". ;-)

    If iwaspassingby came from Cath's blog, this would probably mean she's serious about AllyF being an ersatz-Jerry Springer or the 48.15% statistic of misogynistic posts until last night (could someone quickly check this number?) Or that the assumption that iwaspassingby is a feminist is due to the assumer's misogyny.

    The last point reminds me of "The Unmentionable Man" by G. K. Chesterton (from "The Paradoxes of Mr. Pond"): Mr. Pond asks a tradesman (I think) on which political side he stads. The tradesman answers that, as he belongs to the Bourgeoisie, he is against Communism, although he does have sympathies for the proletariat. Mr. Pond concludes that the man is an arch-Communist, trying to hide his political leaning. Why? Because the man may have been saying he was against Communism, but clearly thought in communist categories.

    However, I guess this kind of deduction works better in fiction than in real life; that it does work so well for iwaspassingby, seems to point to the conclusion that this poster has a little more fiction to her/him than other, non-trollish posters, at least it does to me.

  27. elie and okelie:

    I’ve been following that thread with interest.

    Not surprised to see the sort of comments and attacks that Ally is having to deal with, but he’s more than capable of doing so.

    That said, it really is ridiculous that he is accused being a a misogynist or an anti-feminist. He’s exactly the opposite, and only someone with a completely distorted view of what those words mean could refer to him as such. But as we know, there are plenty of such people about on Cif.

    And right on cue, one of them is back again...

  28. Okeliedokelie, your patriarchal conditioning is showing by assuming iwaspassingby to be a "she". ;-)

    Good point - it might be Bitethehand in disguise... :)

    Speaking of which- does he ever make points or does he just piss on everyone else's?

  29. andy, I know what you mean- he's such a reasonable guy. Did you see the reception he got at Cath's blog?


    What was that you were saying about people with a distorted world view? :)

  30. okelie: yeah, that was a great example of open-minded debate, wasn’t it?

    A number of other Untrusted posters were involved in that particular shit storm, but for me the one who came out of it best was Clare, Ally’s missus (oops, long-term female partner). Her comment towards the end was spot on.

    And I get the impression that although Cath stretches credulity at times, she’s not quite as vitriolic in her out-and-out hatred of 50% of the human population as some of the posters her blog attracts.

  31. elementary_watson08 September, 2009 17:06

    Aww, come on, Cath is a good one. I believe she honestly doesn't *get* those who disagree with the rather divise branches of feminism (i.e., she doesn't *get* why those branches are seen as divisive, or why they are so very emphatically opposed), but she certainly doesn't hate men as such. I doubt she even distrusts men as such; it's just that she can see why a woman (who had certain experiences) could, and doesn't see why this might wind some folks up if that woman tells so publicly. But, as I said, she's a good one, I believe.

    [silliness] She also has a habit of writing great articles.

    Oops, meant to say:

    She also has a habit of writing, "great article!" [\silliness]

  32. I know what you mean Andy- I don't think Cath is that bad... although I do think she has her ideas and will bend reality to fit OR be absent for a given thread. I so wanted her to appear on the Porn for Women thread a while back :)

    But sheesh, her blog, the horror... the *horror* I loved the way they all wrote CiF off as a nasty place full of closed minds.

  33. Cath's an honest-to-god fascist as I think I mentioned a couple of years back, but let's not quibble.

    Slightly off topic but there's some very amusing threads over on Liberal Conspiracy at the mo - Guido and some of his regulars are winding Sunny's mob up something rotten, and I feel something is about to blow.

    PS - MacShane: what a shit.

  34. elementary:

    I can see why a woman could find it hard to trust men in some situations, and I have a great deal of sympathy for women in that position. There are also men posting on Cif who appear to have been hurt in their lives by a woman or women, and to have developed a hatred of all women as a result; I even have some sympathy for them, on a personal level.

    But I also think it should be possible for people to put those feelings to one side to some extent when they discuss and debate issues. So many (on both “sides”) are not even prepared to attempt that, and that’s what really pisses me off.


    *I loved the way they all wrote CiF off as a nasty place full of closed minds*

    Whereas we know it’s a wonderful place where everyone welcomes ideas and opinions which differ from theirs...

    Anyway, I’m waiting to see who’s going to come back on that thread next. Has Cath herself commented yet? I’d be genuinely interested to hear what she has to say.

  35. Whereas we know it’s a wonderful place where everyone welcomes ideas and opinions which differ from theirs...

    I know, I never thought I'd be defending it as such... but compared to what goes on at Caff's gaff... pfff

    I"m keeping an eye on that thread too... Ally seems to have lost patience with Bitethehand :)

    I don't think Cath will comment. I think that's what's so fascinating about the thread- it calls into question the exclusivity of so much of the victimhood that *some* feminists like to have handy.

    I mean... having to stop saying "We need to stop violence against women" and start saying "We need to stop violence against people who suffer from violence"... well, where's the fun in that?

    Nah, I don't know. But I doubt she'll post!

  36. okelie:

    *Ally seems to have lost patience with Bitethehand*

    Yep, I know that feeling


    *Cath's an honest-to-god fascist*

    Just like the BNP are left-wing, I suppose...

    I’ll support your right to say anything here, Frank, as long as you don’t start telling us how much you hate people you disagree with, but you do come out with some nonsense at times.

  37. Evening all!

    I owe heyhabib a great big thanks for putting helpline info on AllyFs DV thread, something which I usually do myself!

  38. Ditto to andysays!

  39. 'Looking at the Massachusetts example, looks like Marshall Lore is riding into town under the banner of 'One Flu over the cuckoos nest?'

    posed the cynic

  40. REWIND


    2001: 911:


    'GLOBAL terror threat; Permanent terror threat:'

    posed the cynic


    (subtext: whatever happened to civil liberties?'

  41. REWIND


    'Man Made Global Warming'


    'The War on CO2: Existential GLOBAL threat to the planet and humanity'

    posed the cynic

    'SOLUTION: developing the legitimacy for GLOBAL infrastructure for PERMANENT GLOBAL taxation ..(.and emissions trading)... on road travel, waste, congestion, heating, insulation, building standards..... etc. etc.

    (subtext: whatever happened to limited government?'

  42. REWIND


    2008: Financial '911'

    'Big (empty) banks..........make the sheeple's funds feel safe BUT ..........................'

    'The crusade on lack of national financial regulation and the ongoing seismic weakness of the dollar'

    posed the cynic

    'leads automatically to the creation of an infrastructure of a GLOBAL financial architecture and central banking system..... under the aegis of the people who....... got it wrong in the first place?'

    (subtext: how did the US get $54 trillion of federal debt obligations by 2030? )


    'Think you're invested funds are safe now that the RECOVERY is well underway?'

    chuckled the made hatter

    'Don't mention the derivatives market

  43. To Date:

    'Just when the world is looking at a permanent GLOBAL armed intervention to prevent terror, and erecting GLOBAL structures to allow permanent taxation of virtually all aspects of modern urban life, and designing a GLOBAL financial architecture as a precursor eventually to a global currency.....'

    posed the cynic

    'Guess what.............. a GLOBAL HEALTH ''pandemic''
    that allows governments to enact martial law????????'

    'What a coincidence.....................'

    posed conspiracy Grandma

    'Welcome to the coming New World Order.... you have NO choice..... don't pretend that you do'

    'Resistance is futile'

    posed the build-a -borg

  44. Bitterweed:

    *Oh fuck off*

    That’s a bit strong.

    Surely it’s up to all of us to welcome new arrivals to Untrusted, to help them overcome the initial shyness which may result in them not wishing to reveal their names straight away.

    Welcome to The Untrusted, Anonymous.

    But if you don’t have anything sensible to say, maybe you could follow Comrade Bitterweed’s suggestion and just fuck off...

  45. Sorry. Long day. It's a bit like coming home at seven, knackered, sitting with the window open only to hear the neighbour's kid a few yards away shouting his stupid little head off half way up a tree.

    I blame the parents. Bah.

  46. ...and then when The Guardian’s search engine’s not working, that just pushes you over the edge.

    I know mate, I’m feeling your pain...

  47. 'Enjoy the jab'

    chuckled the troll

  48. 'The Untrusted?'

    posed the troll

    'What a joke'

  49. andysays
    I know, I was trying to compile a list of anonymous quotes of note. Drew a total blank... Oh well, there's always tomorrow. Night all.

  50. andy,
    Ones seems to smell a fart from MyT around here.

    A. Wellwisher.

  51. Lose the spare s.


  52. Our old chum BTH is up to his usual nonsense on Ally’s DV thread.

    He’s like something out of a zombie film, isn’t he? No matter how many times you kill him, he just keeps coming back. Just as well there’s no brain required for his stuff, or he’d have had to stop ages ago.

  53. andy,
    He sticks at it though, he's been going for ages.

  54. colin: no sign of deano today.

    I’m bored shooting fish in a barrel for now. Maybe I’ll return to it tomorrow.

    Goodnight all...

  55. Bitterweed - thanks again for the private eye/paul foot report. Just got round to reading it (forgot I had it and when I first got it I thought crap! too long to keep my attention. But it did..) I had read a lot of what was in it before, though not all and not so clearly laid out and whilst I was already pretty sure maghrahi was stitched up (tin foil hat not needed), now I am so much more convinced.

    And also...

    I'm a gibbering paranoic dribbled the syphylitic fuckface

    >>>>>>>> fast forward >>>>>>>>

    Apparently you're not breathed the ut in relief

  56. andy,
    Btw, I've mastered cut and paste. Like your opinion sometime.

  57. Montana,
    Feel for the boy who had never been invited to one. Hope he had a good time.