05 November 2010


Aleppo, early 20th Century
For every talent that poverty has stimulated it has blighted a hundred.
-John W. Gardner


  1. Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot.

  2. "Quack Quack?"...again?

    Come on halfwit...you can do better than that...you used to be somebody Muppet Boy...you used to be a contender...I remember the days when you could do this sort of thing...

    "These multicultural morons are undermining this country's resilience when we are at war. There is only one culture in this country and that is British culture which is INCLUSIVE. They are traitors and should be snubbed and shunned at every opportunity.

    Yes, I would extend this to Muslims. Not because of the alleged delusional nature of their faith but because National security depends upon it. Catholics and Muslims both recognise an authority outside this country. In the event of any conflict, they cannot be trusted to put this country's interest first."

    (EnglishFuckwit aged 14 and a half)

    Come on Kermit...show us you've still got what it takes...and don't even think about: "That's completely out of context"...I think your recent output on here tells us all we need to know

    PS...I know you're never exactly weighed down with recommends on CIF...why not post the above on a BNP or EDL site?...I'm sure you'd get hundreds...you might even get comment of the week

    quack quack

  3. OMG, Laurie Penny, poverty tourist, on R4. Nae Today program, strike. Viva La Revoloution!

  4. Monkeybum

    You see that big bowl full of cold, yellow and green blood flecked pus?

    That's your breakfast. Yum.

  5. Monkeybum

    What a good boy you are! You've eaten it all up. Yes, you get pudding. Fresh warm cat diarrhoea with worms. I know how you like to suck them up like spaghetti.

  6. turminder - good start to the thread there! having looked at the R4 'emergency' schedule, are the only people on strike the reporters? seems a bit odd...

  7. turminder,

    let me get this right. Laurie Penny, radfem leftist radical (Oxford educated and middle class naturally) has crossed the picket line to present a programme? Or was it prerecorded?

  8. ok, have caught up with the story.

    so the two people doing the news right now are, what? scabs? designated emergency news suppliers?

    ah well - football weekly extra it is then. this is going to throw my whole routine out of whack.

  9. yr grace - really hope it was live and they made her be in the studio for 6.30am.

    and get there by bus.


  10. "let me get this right. Laurie Penny, radfem leftist radical (Oxford educated and middle class naturally) has crossed the picket line to present a programme?"

    Christ. She really is radical isnt she, a rallying point for the discontented worker everywhere.

  11. From Icedthippy on the John Harris music protest thread:

    Anything to get rid of this vapid, sackless, twee, cutesy, trilling "indie" shite. Its truly fucking rubbish, but now its fucking everywhere and is in cahoots with the forces of advertising.

    Anyone picking up a guitar to play this irritatting, hard-on deflating, fanny drying, plinky-plinky fuckrubbish would be better off picking up a shotgun and blowing thier chickenshit jelly banana brains all over thier student digs. I just don't want to hear this bed wetting drivel anymore, but it is becoming inescapable in the mainstream and I am utterly fucking sick of it.

    "Plink-plink-whistle-silly voice singing about rollerskates or bears or childrens tv programmes from the eighties-plink-plink-whistle" JUST FUCK OFF

    At least when university costs more there will be less cuntawful, pretentious university bands. That was the point I originally wanted to make but I got derailed by my enduring and powerful hatred of twee "indie" music and its arsepiece practitioners.

    hear hear. Any band which deems to be interviewed by Zane "Arsehole" Lowe on MTV2 or has their TV appearance/gig sponsored by shockwaves/T-mobile, should have their heads instantly decapitated by a specially sharpened blade made out of Keith Moons cymbals on an old Top of the Pops stage.

    After having their god awful Hoxton twat haircuts shaved off.

  12. Jay,

    I'm genuinely intrigued by this. Can anyone confirm if Laurie Penny was in the BBC studios this morning being interviewed?

  13. it was definitely an interview prog (it''s on listen again) but i doubt it was live - no cheerful interaction between presenter and announcer, etc, just cuts straight in.

  14. This comment has been removed by the author.

  15. Duke
    Her fucking hear on the applause for that post.
    That cunt Jools Holland has a lot to answer for - every second band on there these days has to have an out of tune mandolin, a fuckwit with a zylophone on an ironing board and a terribly serious but tone-deaf looking lead singer who looks like he/she's shat his/her pants as part of a second year performing arts module. Probably EnglishBumwits kids getting their own back for being taken to all those Wishbone Ash reunions.

  16. TurminderX:

    Great opening gambit. Is it from V for Vendetta? (apols if being a bit thick this morning!)

    I'm really sorry about the job ;(

  17. Duke:

    I'll drink to that one! (with my coffee, naturlich!)


    Jools Holland? Don't get me started - rubbish.... another establishment whorebore.

  18. Turm:

    Just had a thought - I'll e-mail Thauma with the suggestion and hope she can pass it on...

  19. Indeed LaRit
    He's the prick who sacked ace music journo Muriel Grey in favour of that clueless skanky dimlord Paula Yates on the Tube. He's always been a no-neck bell-end.

  20. Mornin' all,

    Bl**dy hell what did I miss last night? A lot of Quackwittery by the looks of it!

    Brilliant excerpt from V for Vendetta Turminder, I really must dig it out of the back of my DVD collection and give it another watch!

  21. BW:

    Always had a lot of time for Muriel Grey and as for Paula Yates, that was the beginning of the 'dollybird' music presenters as opposed to serious journalism/commentary.

    Jools Holland always has been a good business man - another one trading on a modicum of talent and elevating himself to 'holier than thou' mythical status. He's been clunking out the same boogie-woogie tune for years, lazy bastard .... and what a bloody bore.

  22. Quack. Quack. Quack. Quack. Quack.

  23. Morning Dott:

    Because of the NUJ strike - there was a lovely programme about wading birds on R4 this morning.... "the Oyster Catcher..... with a bill like a long straight carrot" brought a big smile to my face. Love to watch them whenever I go up to N.Wales coast....and Talacre, a favourite place to see a cornucopia of birdlife ;)

    PS - Do dig out V for Vendetta... I watched it again recently - blinding film.

  24. La Rit,

    Love Oycs, one of my favourites, I helped out on a project catching them (for ringing and monitoring purposes) a few times. The first thing you learn is to hold them on their backs not their bellies so they don't poo all over you!

    Did you know that different birds specialise in different ways of opening mussels? (Oystercatcher is a misnomer) Some hammer, some stab!

  25. Bitterweed/LaRit,

    cheers. As a lover of 'real' indie rather than Zane Lowe indie, it makes me endlessly depressed seeing the good name of indie being dragged through the mud. Or should that be dragged through TIGI bed head manipulator sculpting putty (Create separation in your style whether you're sporting a chunky, modern texture or defining curls or waves. The hair can be moved around to create a piecey texture, or simply slicked back for a polished look without creating a shiny or crunchy helmet!!)

    Rememeber the days when Half Man half Biscuit knocked back an appearance on the Tube because their beloved Tranmere Rovers were playing at home that night?

    I got a good book tip from monkeyfish on here a few months ago called "Death to trad rock" by John Robb which is a brilliant trip through the exploits of 80's indie bands who sold about 24 copies between the lot of them.

    And had more soul and integrity in one synapse than the whole of MTV2's output since its inception.

  26. nice to see bragg has turned up on the harris thread (agreeing with clunie, which shows taste and decency...)

    agree with the 'indie' jibes - doesn't mean a damn thing beyond nice hair any more. 'alternative' means more, maybe, but last time i mentioned that (atl), got mullered, heheheheheheheh. there's more challenge and commitment at three days of atp than a whole year of radio 1, let alone the pop pap washing over the tv schedules.

    and jools holland needs putting in a box. putting the black keys on is great, but when they're sandwiched between neil diamond murdering his back catalogue, paul mccartney visibly in need of oxygen, and that 'i need a dollar' chap (ex-management consultant, nice cords), it just doesn't work.

  27. I think Penny is a no-talent 6th-form bore, (and she was predictably rubbish on the show) but fair's fair - the programme was a repeat from yesterday.

  28. LaRit
    Indeed. Stride piano ? Stride my arse. His talent knows no beginning.

    Although a lot of that music fails to move or engage me, have always had admiration for the people who do it.

    As I said yesterday, some old mates of mine have a punk band, touring all over the world but largely penniless. They've written a song called "Forty Watt Cunt in a Hundred Watt World"

    That's up there with Dylan and Cohen that one


  29. Dott:

    I cannot imagine what a delight it would be to hold an oyster catcher (pooh or no pooh!)and the art of opening mussels? Stab n Hammer? It kind of fits their birdy personalities! The seagulls along the seafront at Llandudno drop them from a great height onto the concrete walkway that leads onto the beach.... it's a mussel graveyard!!!

    Re: the way diff beaks are used I was amazed to discover how Starlings use theirs - like reverse pliers.... and apparently they can be taught to speak... clever little fings they are ;)

  30. La Rit -- " Dott- PS. Do dig out V for Vendetta... I watched it again recently - blinding film."

    Me too, seconded !

    Turminder -- excellent piece of reporting there on Untrusted,too.

  31. "The Untrusted - Some hammer, some stab!"

  32. Duke:

    it makes me endlessly depressed seeing the good name of indie being dragged through the mud. Or should that be dragged through TIGI bed head manipulator sculpting putty (Create separation in your style whether you're sporting a chunky, modern texture or defining curls or waves. The hair can be moved around to create a piecey texture, or simply slicked back for a polished look without creating a shiny or crunchy helmet!!)

    That just about sums it up - brilliant.... or how Indie was yet another aspect of working class culture that was co-opted and facsimiled by the middle class talentless bores to sell ermm.. 'product'....

    PS (Long story, but I know John Robb (the most handsome man in punk) of old - lovely fella) not read his book yet but intend to - another to add to my list!

  33. PPS Duke - your descriptions of Dutch to PhilippaB yesterday had me rolling on the floor laffing ;)

  34. BW;

    his talent knows no beginning...... again rotfl ;0)

  35. La Rit,

    The best bit was carrying three at once (one in each hand, using them to pin the third one against my front so they were lined up in a row facing outwards) from the processing area to the release area, then releasing them!

    BW "The Untrusted - Some hammer, some stab!"



    I'll re-watch V for Vendetta again this weekend. Weirdly I was introduced to it by a French girl!

  36. Dott:

    The best bit was carrying three at once (one in each hand, using them to pin the third one against my front so they were lined up in a row facing outwards)

    Would have loved to have seen that.... and then..... releasing them, dignity only slightly dented ;)

  37. Jesus Turm I've just read about your 'interview' on U2, shocking but hey I am sure that 47 hour working week (I've worked in that kind of atmosphere before and I bet it is a rare week when you actually only do 47 hours)is well rewarded with a massive salary, right?

    I bet it isn't really, if my experience is anything to go by they will pay slightly more than their competitors and once you are in it is impossible to get out.

    That little bit of extra money keeps you there for a while but that doesn't work for long, what actually keeps you there is being too worn down to look for anything else, your life passes by in a blur of working, sleeping, working, sleeping and after a while you accept it as normal.

    When I was working for Ladbrokes I was working 70-80 hour weeks, every week and this was on a 5 hour contract so forget holidays or sick leave.

    I spent about 3 years there without ever taking a week off, and heavens forbid that you went sick or refused overtime because that was you buggered for months, you just wouldn't be offered it again.

    I finally got out through a friend, who worked at a small family run bookies, getting me a job there, the money was a lot less but I got a life in return right up until they got bought out by Coral. :(

    I got a pay rise out of it, a big pay rise, tons of extra responsibility and a return to 70 hour weeks which I just couldn't cope with and ended up going loco.

    Sorry if I am waffling on but I am lookin at returning to work soon and this stuff is weighing on my mind.

  38. Johann Hari (Independent) - Well Worth a Read

    turm - Sorry the interview was a nonsense but it made for an interesting read in your piece on UT2.

    Hope the bastards pay your interview expenses.

  39. jen - bloody hell, that sounds horrific - at my worst i wasn't doing more than 60 (fortunately wasn't forced to work weekends, was too junior to be trusted with home access). which resulted in a breakdown and a walk-out after about 11 months, as i just couldn't hack it any more. downshifting to a smaller firm made life more manageable...

    i know that 'flexible working' - the panacaea according to some - may be difficult to extend outside the 'trad' city office job in terms of home working etc etc, but part-timing / cover / job share does now seem to be more prevalent? hope you find something manageable.

  40. For those who haven't seen it, get your arses over to UT2.

    Want to know about the real "broken Britain" ? Turminder's written a bloody good introduction to that book.

  41. BW;

    his talent knows no beginning...... again rotfl ;0)

    Made I laugh too.

  42. aye, turminder's piece excellent. horrible, but excellent.

    am off to work now, to make up the hours lost yesterday as the phones weren't working.

    given that my job involves ringing people up, that hampered my productivity somewhat.

    have a good afternoon, all.

  43. To be honest Philippa, the business I was working in was particularly prone to those kinds of employment shenannigans but from what I can tell it has only got worse in the last couple of years.

    You can barely find a job that isn't offering 16 or less hour contracts (you won't do 16 hours or less but it means you don't dare take holidays) and they have the added blackmail tactic of restricting you to your contract hours if you don't play the game.

    I saw a job advertised in a shop window the other day for a shop manager for a national charity, one post only (I assume the rest of the staff would be volunteers) and they were offering less than £6.30an hour for 16 hours.

    Now how you would manage a shop, which is open six days a week on 16 hours is beyond me, the £6.30 an hour is an added insult, the employment market, at least for those without a profession or trade, has been destroyed.

    If a company deigns to give you a job you are supposed to bend over and just take anything they feel like dishing out because there are a million like you out there who are desperate for work.

    That's why those who witter on about work, any work being a duty and how your self esteem will grow once you are 'contributing' can kiss my arse.

  44. Thanx 4 reading guys, fat chance of expenses I'd think, it wasn't the house of Commons.

    That 47 hour week was more like 60, starting on 21k = less than $7ph.

    But, a guy in the front row, on a salary at Tesco, thought it was a good deal, cos he'd just done a 71 hour week for his basic money..

    Jen's nailed it, the top line looks good, but you're expected to really be their bitch for that, and convincingly pretend to like it. Some pretend so hard it ends up they do like it, hence the zealots leading the proselytisation.

  45. "Jools Holland always has been a good business man - another one trading on a modicum of talent"

    Going to have to differ there, LaRit and others, he grates me personally but he is an absolute master of the piano. His boogie and blues piano is sublime, he's a great organ player too (not as clear cut a transition as it seems), and he's been one of the very few people keeping that type of piano alive in the mainstream. He is irritating, admittedly, but cant agree on him lacking talent at all.

    On indie music in general, totally agree (great post you mention, Duke) - that "twee", insincere, ironic rubbish is the most souless drivel around, and its everywhere. "Bed wetting" music is one of the most apt descriptions I've heard.

    To compare it to, say, the BB King i linked the other day is like two totally different artforms - one has actual passion and emotion, one is just being a poncey twat with questionable sponsorship deals.

  46. Work, for so very many, has fuck all to do with liberation and self fulfillment - it's all about control.

    It has been made progressively more and more soul destroying by schools of alleged managerial thought that reduces most people to robotic wage slavery. Even the common everyday language of pleasantries is now scripted....

    have a nice day! Fuck off.

    Fucking bastards - I'm away wi me dog to exercise my dignity and to celebrate my freedom from tedious work and suffocating half baked twating managers who couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.

    Sadly Jen it's not much better in many areas of so called 'professional' work either. You do have more freedom but it's still increasingly subject to formula driven madness.

    What is amazing is that, that which in theory is so highly prized - initiative, is actually feared and frowned upon when used.

    Whatever else is required of workers these days - questioning skills are out.

    My old 'friend' Frederick Winslow Taylor (great grand dad of scientific management) would turn in his Quaker grave at the ends to which his ideas have been turned

  47. I remember years ago, when I worked in KFC (only part time as a student, so I didn't get the full horror of the job) reading an article about the dignity of low paid work and I got so mad that if that journo had turned up in my branch I would have throttled her with my polyester uniform, after poking her eyes out with the pin on my name badge.

    Dignity, ffs, if it's so dignified then why aren't you doing it?

  48. Jay
    Really ? I always found him quite a wooden player. Sure he's a great enthusiast, and his Walking to New Orleans documentary in the 80s was very nicely done... but... his left hand is often clumsy and forced, he can't play with the beat - or a band - very well and a lot of his fills seem intrusively self-conscious when he's "accompanying" people. He needs to step back a bit and get over his ego. I would have more patience if I hadn't heard so many legion stories about what an egotistical and short-tempered arse he can be to work for.

  49. On a lighter note Jay, check this !


    Made I holler !

  50. What is amazing is that, that which in theory is so highly prized - initiative, is actually feared and frowned upon when used.

    I think that 'initiative' in a job ad is code for "willing to do whatever the hell we tell you to do without complaining".

  51. Montana - it's plain old fashioned double speak!

    Good that the re-clocking of UK time gives you a bit more opportunity to join in the daily UT (at least for a short while)

  52. turminder,

    I put a BTL post on your UT2 piece but just to say you should send this to Jessica Reed, seriously. It would spark off a great debate. Depressing as hell.


    thanks for the Penny info. I didn't think she would be so unaware as to cross a picket line.

  53. turm - I agree with Duke.

    It might cover the interview expenses?

    Make a rough sketch of the Tallman and put him in the pocket of a Guy and flame the bastard on a fire tonight.


  54. I was also reading the papers at lunchtine and for some reason the tabs here have got themselves all hot and bothered over a biography of King Gustaf of Sweden.

    Apparently during the 70's and 80's randy Gustaf liked nothing better than sharing a sauna with a bevvy of beauties. Anyway on the inside page of today's Algemeen Dagblad the headline screams:

    Orgy during elk hunt

    surely a contender for bizarre headline of the year?

  55. Not much fun on the work front then. I'm glad I've retired but I remember it well especially before I worked hard to gain some qualifications on a very low wage with long hours which led to a few years of well paid work. It was worse when I went self employed, even less money and even longer hours. At least I was enjoying my work. This was games design in the eighties and for three years it was the new rock'n'roll. It was the new frontier and it was very very exciting.

    If I was young today, I'd do the same again and go self employed. There's a world market on the internet. Even two or three mobile internet apps or games could provide a small income stream.

    The coalition are banging on about enterprise culture. Why don't you put them to the test and see how much funding will be made available to support you in the first few months? There used to be schemes for setting up your own business and training courses, quite good ones too, at the Jobcentre under Thatcher and Major.

    It's no good complaining about the modern workplace. It has always been shite at the bottom, it's just a bit deeper these days. The only way out is to retrain and/or set up on your own and the only person who can do that is you.

  56. See Hermit you can make (some kind of) sense when you try but jesus man are you really saying that if employment conditions are shitty then you should't worry about trying to reform them?

    It isn't all about making a good living for yourself, it is about what is right.

    Good for you that you had saleable talents but what about us dumb fucks who haven't?

    Is it so wrong to want decent employment standards for everyone, not just those who can write code or try cases or cure illness.

    Fucking privilege how does that work?

    I am using privilege in the sense that people assume that if they can do something then everyone can because we all start from the same level after all, don't we?

  57. Ooh I started the tag line, cool!

    There are also the ones that specialise in worms (probers!)


    "It's no good complaining about the modern workplace. It has always been shite at the bottom, it's just a bit deeper these days."

    Well if no one complains nothing gets done!

  58. Dott

    Some hammer, some stab is a great tag line.

    Some hammer, some stab, some probe may be more accurate, in life as well as in ornithology but it just doesn't have that ring. ;)

  59. Great link, BW.

    Agree he can be "intrusive" when accompanying, but a lot of his stuff i find superb, listened to a lot of him growing up.

    K, here's Holland doing his famous Bumble Boogie, but for a lot of it he switches the bass line to a descending rather than ascending, quite a good sound,


    Here's him playing with Dr John, this is brilliant:


    However irritating he is, just seems a bit far fetched to question his credentials as a pianist for me anyway.

  60. Ducky:

    I'm glad I've retired

    Bloody hell.

    And there was me thinking you were a teenager with chronic acne and an anal fixation.

  61. You're right Jenn, although since more females than males probe maybe I should write to the Graun about how sexist the UT clearly is ;-)

  62. Dott and I thought I liked you, denying our rights to be on a tag line, the shame of it.

    I call for a ban on the UT until probers rights are recognized.

  63. "..Some hammer, some stab, some probe may be more accurate.."

    I liked that, but as IRL some hammer, some stab, some probe and some just steal ...may be more accurate still.

    Your famous at last Dott! Picture up the other day and now the tag line - you bribing our American cousin?

  64. deano how could I forget the thieves! I'm co-author on a paper about intraspecific kleptoparasitism!

    (say that ten times fast!)

  65. No way Dott, is that a real thing?

  66. Loved it! Dott

    At my final demise I shall always regret not having penned such a paper.

  67. Yep

    Although that article is wrong, in oycs dominants steal from sub dominants, not juveniles from adults.

  68. No, of course it isn't a real thing, (face palm) klepto parasites.

  69. Oh hell, I am wrong again, I should know better than to comment on scientific phenomena.

  70. Turm - just read your article on UT2 words fail me!

    Bloody awful! what planet are these idiots from? Not the one I inhabit certainly.

    Its the same double think that produced the economic crisis.

    See you outside Parliament on 05/11/2011 mate.

    Enough is Enough!

    And as for being 'glad to be retired' I am glad but that doesn't stop me wanting to improve the lot of those younger than myself. I admit I come from a privileged generation - grants at uni and (in my twenties) no shortage or useful works (as opposed to useless toil).

    The left was misled into believing that its agenda made it 'unelectable', kept its head down and allowed them to take so many hard fought gains from us.

    Sadly all we can do is get up of our knees and fight for them all over again.

    Next time lets make bl**dy sure we finish the job and make this disgusting system history.

  71. Very well said Anne, I am sometimes guilty of thinking only of how the current politics affect me (it's hard not to be that way when you are targeted) but it really is about so much more than that.

    I have no children but I do care (and have a vested interest in) other peoples families.

    This, I and my family are ok, attitude is exactly what is wrong with the world.

    We are all a bit selfish but it seems that the I'm ok Jack mindset is now the only one that is 'normal', what is wrong with us.

    Show a bit of compassion to others, or worse anger about the unfairness of this society and you are marked down as a bleeding heart.

    It really is me me me all the way these days.

  72. Good that the re-clocking of UK time gives you a bit more opportunity to join in the daily UT (at least for a short while)

    Actually, today I'm with you because Joe is ill. His normal pattern when ill is just a low-grade fever and lethargy that usually lasts less than 24 hours. When I went to bed Wednesday night, he was crying, quietly -- not like him at all. Fever higher than normal and he could barely talk, said his throat hurt. He was still running a bit of a fever last night, but he'd had ibuprofen, so unmedicated would probably have been too high for school today.

    The school policy is that children are supposed to be fever-free and not have vomitted for 24 hours before they return to school. Of course, if parents actually followed that, it would mean that a kid would probably miss 2 days of school every single time they were ill, but...

    Between him & my asthma, I've already missed more work than I probably should in a whole school year and it's only 5 November. Worried that my principal is going to start taking a dim view.

  73. That must be very worrying for you Montana.

    Crying himself to sleep, how upsetting that must have been.

    That is why I like the UT, the politics mixed with the human and at the end of it all your loved ones come first.

    Politics affects real people.

    I really hope he gets better soon and that it doesn't affect your job. x

  74. I wrote a business plan 5 years ago, to set up a mobile phone games company, I went to Scottish enterprise, they said, 'no money, don't ask, we have no money, we can help you with PAYE and marketing seminars, but there is no, NO money.' I do not think the situation has improved.

    As my magazine business going tits up kinda gave me the fear I didn't persevere on my jack jones...

    UT meet up 365 days from now, Palace of Westminster?

  75. Hope Joe is on the mend Montana, Best wishes. p x

  76. I really hope he gets better soon and that it doesn't affect your job. x

    Hope Joe is on the mend Montana, Best wishes.


  77. annetan -- more like a Sisyphean task? You get the boulder nearly to the top of the hill -- whoops, have to start all over again . S'life!

    PS same generation, as are many others being active here.

  78. "These multicultural morons are undermining this country's resilience when we are at war. There is only one culture in this country and that is British culture which is INCLUSIVE. They are traitors and should be snubbed and shunned at every opportunity.

    Yes, I would extend this to Muslims. Not because of the alleged delusional nature of their faith but because National security depends upon it. Catholics and Muslims both recognise an authority outside this country. In the event of any conflict, they cannot be trusted to put this country's interest first."

    (EnglishFuckwit aged 14 and a half)

  79. "..The left was misled into believing that its agenda made it 'unelectable', kept its head down and allowed them to take so many hard fought gains from us..."

    True A42 - but the saddest thing of all is that it was unnecessary.

    In 97 the pendulum had swung, the electorate was already fed up with the years of Tory abuse and ready to elect the alternative whatever the manifesto.

    Twats like the uber creep Mandelson and Blair never seemed to understand that with the present crap system Political Parties do not win General Elections. Truth is more prosaic..... electorate gets pissed off, Governments loose......After umptynine Tory years Labour would have easily won with a radical left agenda.

    There never was a need for such a vile sell out.

  80. "You see that big bowl full of cold, yellow and green blood flecked pus?"

    "What a good boy you are! You've eaten it all up. Yes, you get pudding. Fresh warm cat diarrhoea with worms. I know how you like to suck them up like spaghetti."

    FFS Muppet boy..it's one thing to have never really made it out of the playground...the world's full of middle-aged dickheads who still spend their time seeing who can piss highest up the wall...but would it be expecting too much that you might have left the vocabulary and syntax behind? It's like arguing with a fuckin 6 year old.

    You've got too comfortable Muppet...spending all that time in the cosy fetid little echo-chamber that is waddaya has left you flabby and out of condition...I know the place is full of your silly little "co-religionists" but..."They are traitors and should be snubbed and shunned at every opportunity."

  81. Montana - hope Joe feels better soon!

    LaRit - haven't had an e-mail off you? Although I don't have Turm's; perhaps Montana does?

  82. MF do you have to repeat the quackings? Some of us drank one too many ciders last night and have just had a big lunch........

  83. Bloody hell (I know said that political isn't the same as personal) but 3 children are dying every hour(I just saw it on an ITV advert).

    3 children, every hour, from dirty water, what the hell are you supposed to do. :(

  84. ."... Fresh warm cat diarrhoea with worms..."

    Agree Dott - only one thing worse.....Stale cold cat diarrhoea with maggots.

  85. Thanks deano, thanks, that's just great.

    Although I think I'd rather eat maggots than worms (at least the ones you'd find in cat diarrhoea) since biologically, they'd be less likely to set up home in ones intestines.....

  86. Jenn I saw a tv advert the other day which was advertising small easy loans for (poor) people (borrow £100 for a few days or a couple of weeks and repay something like £116).

    Unless my eyes deceived me the small print at the bottom of the screen said something like......... TYPICAL APR 2684%!!

    laters everbody - have a good fawkes night and may the object of your displeasure burn brightly.

    I like firework shows.......

  87. Montana,

    saw your post on WADYYA regarding Burgau205. I know what you mean.

    I had a few debates with him pre election and he was your usual small stater, no taxes, privatise the NHS etc poster.

    Since his dreams have come true with the coalition, he's struggling to be relevant and is therefore becoming more extreme in his views. You see it with a lot of the right wingers on CiF and I even include the blacks ops cyborg (copyright Bitterweed) in that category.

  88. without wanting to out them, who's heverale?

  89. Afternoon all

    Great V for V quote up top Turm. I've been pondering on the following from James Baldwin today - instead of working.

    One must say Yes to life and embrace it whenever it is found - and it is
    found in terrible places...For nothing is fixed, forever and forever and
    forever, it is not fixed; the earth is always shifting, the light
    changing, the sea does not cease to grind down rock.

    Generations do not cease to be born, and we are responsible to them because we are the only witnesses they have. The sea rises, the light falls, lovers cling to each other, and children cling to us. The moment we cease to hold each other, the moment we break faith with one another, the sea engulfs us and the light goes out.

    Speaking of birds - A kestrel seems to have taken up residence in a derelict building across the road from me. Lovely to watch.

  90. Not a regular from her, Dot, although s/he did visit us once or twice.

  91. Turm

    Agree that you should pitch your interview 'experience' at Jessica.

  92. Ta Thauma, was going to sympathise with herm over the pen experience but not on WADDYA, can't be bothered to open that can of worms (of non-specific origin!)

    And yes Turm should pitch the UT2 piece to Jess

  93. I know, Dot, I try to avoid any engagement.

    Who's coming for drinkies tomorrow? Will post details a bit later on. Am thinking of starting at either 2.30 or 4.30 - how does that sound?

    Here's Bitterweed's gig details again - Sunday starting at 3.00 at the Leamington Assembly.

  94. Turm

    Interview piece - brilliant in its starkness and simplicity - send it to Cif.

  95. Thanks for the wishes for Joe. He's a bit more chipper today, but says his throat still hurts and he still doesn't have much of a voice.

    Anybody seen that Elizabeth Wurtzel piece on Cif? I essentially agree with what I think is her point, but she somehow manages to be thoroughly offensive in her delivery of it. Just like Jennifer Abel tends to do.

  96. Yes, I've been reading that, Montana. And predictably, RogerINtheUSA has stepped in to have a go at Brits not having direct voting, completely ignoring the Electoral College. Any minute now, he will mention that abortion is not available in NI.

    He really is a two-note cowboy.

  97. This comment has been removed by the author.

  98. "englishhermit said...

    This post has been removed by the author."

    Don't tell me: "it was out of context"...bollocks you're a narrow minded censorious bigot

  99. Was that a cunning attempt to hide your 'real' identity...changing your log in?

    What a fuckin tool you are

    you "should be snubbed and shunned at every opportunity."

    Fact is Hermit, if you had a real life, you would get so wound up by getting called a few names on the internet...but you don't..so I can bask in the knowledge that you're pretty deeply affected by being insulted on here...and very embarrassed by having some of your more 'colourful' past posts reproduced...it really gets to you doesn't it Kermit?

    Well that's your problem..nobody made you come over here...and since the insults and posts wind you up so much...this is for you..you bigoted little dickhead...

    "These multicultural morons are undermining this country's resilience when we are at war. There is only one culture in this country and that is British culture which is INCLUSIVE. They are traitors and should be snubbed and shunned at every opportunity.

    Yes, I would extend this to Muslims. Not because of the alleged delusional nature of their faith but because National security depends upon it. Catholics and Muslims both recognise an authority outside this country. In the event of any conflict, they cannot be trusted to put this country's interest first."

    beats quack quack quack...no?

  100. Time for your tea, Monkeypoo. A nice big bowl of cold sick tonight. You'd better hurry up and eat it otherwise others will be moving in to grab all the big bits. You know what they are like around here.

  101. For someone who claims to have been a software developer, the Kermit's not very good with computers. Couldn't work out how easy it was to rig the recommends ... can't work out how to log in with the right ID ....

    (Watch me make a similar fuck-up soon ... sod's law and all that.)

  102. He's not got the hang of the multiple id's yet. For someone who admits that workplace bullying led to their breakdown this is either an elaborage skin thickening exercise or a very slow suicide..

    Jess not up for the piece in it's current form, would need pruned and pegged.

  103. heh...heh...heh MF you were right - our resident troll is EnglishHermit! I think I might just pop over to waddya and give them a few examples of his ouevre when he visits us - you know that pus and maggots stuff, not to mention his attachment to quacks. And warn them too - if they don't tow his authoritarian line they might get the same treatment...

  104. Hmm, elaborage About 11,800 results (0.14 seconds) , remarkably common spelling mistake...

  105. Now now Monkeypoo, Eat up your tea and stop sulking. Just because that horrible man at the Guardian took away all your comments, there's no need to go into a massive sulk again.

  106. Turm - it's probably horrible American management-speak for telecommuters: e-labor-age. ;-)

  107. I'm sorry Monkeyfish, I'm a bad duck. I'll just nip off and shoot meself....

  108. Told you...

    lol Thaum. Afk for a bit, l8rs pals. p x

  109. Hey Englishhermit - we can call you that now we know who you are ducky. Just had a gander at your website. So you make music, kind of.

    Bitters - have listen and give us a considered opinion.

  110. Fake ducks. Fake hermits. What is the world coming too? It must be all that cheating.

  111. Ah god, Sheff, that's no way to start a weekend. No thanks!

  112. Ducks are one bird species where the male has a penis

    Of course on-line one can swap "has" for "is"........

  113. Englishhermit

    You're a bit of an LOTRs buff - you might take note of this quote (from Gandalf)

    Farewell, my brave Hobbits. My work is now finished. Here at last, on the shores of the sea... comes the end of our Fellowship. I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil.

  114. La Rit
    waves back ~~~
    some days later…

    Sorry that at present I’m often not able to hang around long enough to respond too much (or not straightaway) – other things requiring attention also, and wandering out into the nights (away from computer access) - sort of dracula-like - into a confusion of alternative realities –
    this Wonderland sure ain’t Narnia
    although, as I said, just about anything makes more sense than ConLib-land…
    (although I could be going anywhere really – my family don’t check)
    – while I do read and assimulate everyone’s input.

    This post is a direct response to your comments (mixed up with others):

    part one
    In a way, you almost have to admire (while not admiring at all of course) the audacity of the current regime – campaign vigorously about how they’re going to stop the worse excesses of Labour – get into office and set about steadily increasing the worse excesses of Labour, and then tell everyone that this shows what good things they're doing for us, compared to the awful things Labour were doing and could be doing.

    Next, they’ll find that, after all we do need ID cards…

    And who were pushing for ID cards? – our beloved and trusted ATOS.

    In 1994 Atos Origin took over Schlumberger Sema, who had been lobbying hard for the introduction of ID cards, and had been selected by the Home Office to run a biometric passport control. Atos continued the good work :

    In a lengthy submission to the Home Office Atos Origin (formerly Scumberger Sema)argued that the “well understood sensitivity of the issue indicates the need to progress gradually rather than by “big bang”. Because of the history and tradition of the British people, we believe that arriving at a universal entitlement multi-application smart card may
    be an iterative process stretching over a number of years”. Atos Origin basically argued that the Government should introduce an ID Card-lite and then “migrate” to a full biometric card and detailed population database when the card is already in use. Atos Origin told the Government that “trying to move from where we are now to a sophisticated smart card
    solution without one of these interim steps would underestimate the business process and social attitude changes that would need to take place.”

    In 2009 IBM signed a £265 contract with the Idenitity and Passport Service to run the biometric database forming part of the National Identity Register – with parts of the deal sub-contracted to Atos Origin, providing integration and operations; and Sagern Securite, providing biometric services and software.

    "This contract will provide a secure database for storing facial and fingerprint images for the next generation of biometric passports and will support the delivery of the National Identity card," said James Hall, chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service.

    You’ll have noticed how the reason we needed (or will need) an ID card, or its equivalent, shifts like wind-blown sands, because whatever it is is just an excuse – the real driving force being the profit motives of those who have been developing the increasing ways of recording details about us, which then gets pushed, through whispered suggests into the ears of our ignorant government ‘representatives’ about how useful it would be to combat - say terrorists – it doesn’t matter what. Then when it’s pointed out that it wouldn’t stop terrorism at all, as they’d be bona fide ID-card carriers anyway, the story becomes immigrants - or anything else that might make the public swallow it as protecting them, when it’s going to do exactly the opposite.

    Or you could say that what we have is a lot of quacks pretending that they know how to decide our affairs, when all evidence shows the opposite to be the case.

  115. thauma

    Just heard this on the radio - much better way to start the weekend

    Billy Idol may have been a bit of a fraud but its still a good song

    Rebel Yell

  116. Or this one from Sam Gamgee, which was mysteriously expunged from the published version by the Illuminati:

    Eee, I went to the inn in Hobbiton and there were some right nutter there who were talkin' a load of shite about Shireness and gettin' all upset-like about strangers like Rangers an' Rohirrim comin' 'ere an' destroyin' our hobbitish culture.... After sommat of a while, he pissed 'imself and just kep' saying, "Quack. Quack. Quack."

  117. @thauma:

    RogerInTheUSA manages to be offensive and banal at the same time. I don't know if he's ever said, but I get the feeling he's a British expat living in the US. He sometimes gets American culture so spectacularly wrong that I just can't bring myself to believe that he actually grew up here.

  118. Montana - yes, I can easily see what you mean!

    Sheff - thanks for that, I *cough* actually quite like Mr. Idol. Possibly for sentimental reasons as the Rebel Yell tour was the first rock concert I ever went to.

    This one is pretty damn good too if you ignore all the silly posturing.

  119. Well he was very pretty Thauma, and he did do some good tunes, so who can blame your youthful self.

  120. Never been much of a fan of "pretty", Sheff. ;-)

    But his version of Mony Mony also kicks arse.

  121. Right, Saturday piss-up starting around 4.30 at The New Inn. Look for an elegantly-attired, well-bred and attractive woman wearing Irish rugby kit and possibly a big fuzzy Guinness leprechaun hat. (Might leave that one at home ... don't want it to get hurt.)

    There might be a Guardian kicking about the place also, if I can remember that.

  122. Eek both of those songs were horrific, sorry Thauma despite your early love he was a joke.

    Nice looking though.

  123. Sorry, Jen! My thinking is opposite - never fancied him but liked the music.

  124. Thauma at least we will never fall out over a man. ;)

  125. Jen, I'm suspicious of women who use gel, hairspray and dye let alone men. ;-)

    Vive la différence!

  126. Okay – hobbits it is – and with fireworks too – have a good time

    part two
    (could someone rescue part one please)

    In Scotland, the government made a firm commitment not to support the UK National Idenity ID card, yet was at the same time issuing National Entitlement Cards to pensioners and schoolchildren :

    Caring nannies do not record every action of their charges, sharing private matters with all and sundry, or create files destined to haunt for life those whom they nurture....

    Scottish pensioners are tracked every time they swipe their concessionary bus passes. Summaries of medical records have been uploaded to centralised databases, to be accessed by distant doctors and nurses across the land. School children are routinely fingerprinted in library and dinner queues. Local authorities insist that young Scots must carry smart cards, only offering an opt-out if parents ask...

    The Registrar General for Scotland has new powers to compile lists of any personal information about anyone in Scotland (Local Electoral Administration and Registration Services Scotland Act), while the Scottish Government builds a population register ready for the Home Secretary to seize...

    …critics condemned ministers’ decision to hire Atos [to commission a report from them – the scheme's chief corporate cheerleaders]. Dr Geraint Bevan of campaign group NO2ID said: "The involvement of this company is astonishing and means that the review is hopelessly compromised.

    "Atos were entirely complicit in the design and creation of the UK National Identity Scheme.

    "Asking them to conduct an independent assessment is like asking a doubleglazing salesman to evaluate the windows of your house...

    He added: "We have a [Scottish] Government and a Parliament which have stated unequivocally on numerous occasions that they are opposed to ID cards.

    "Yet this insidious system will now come on-stream without a single serious question having been posed...

    …the pensioners' free bus pass - is already well on the way to becoming a sinister national identity card. The cards, also issued to children as Young Scot cards, are a privacy disaster.

    How have officials managed to design and implement such a surveillance system without parliamentary oversight? ...

    A Dundee example

    So, does it matter what uninteresting journeys we are taking, or what food we’re having in the canteen, or our shopping purchases, or what library books we’re taking out? Not into itself of course, but why is it necessary to record it individually at all?

    At the uni I attend (occasionally) everyone – staff and students - now has to have an entitlement card to use any facilities there – who was asked about this? – where did it come from? I don’t use their facilities – especially now on principle – so I didn’t put in for their card - as far as I’m concerned my student number is all I need – full stop.

    This isn't an objection to carrying a card and picture to show I have the right to be in parts of a premises (whatever) - it's an objection to having every harmless interaction fed back to some database.

    Some of it could be useful for everyday life - if it weren’t for the collecting of it all onto databases for who-knows-who to profile us, and for what state-control purposes that could be used in the future – where you can be excuded from entitlement to services by someone’s whim.

    After all, they can already remove your right to a welfare income at the press of a button, upon invented evidence.

    So what it comes down to is - how much do you trust your government and those it serves?

  127. Ha ha thuama, I have just put one of Sheffs pictures as my screensaver, it's replaced the David Miliband/confetti one.

    Thank god they didn't have guyliner then or I would be completely gone. ;)

  128. Jen, I've got the Irish rugby team as my wallpaper at work....

  129. Wait, hang on ... "David Miliband/confetti"? Eh? I hope that's a joke of some sort!

  130. Thauma it's a brilliant picture isn't it, it makes me laugh however down I am.

  131. Evenin' campers...

    Someone pointed this out to me today..... the total abscence on the BBC of calling tonight Bonfire/Guy Fawkes night..... it has now been re-christened Diwali.....

    What do you think? Everyone's been briefed to ignore Guy Fawkes just in case it gives anyone any ideas about blowing up Parliament?

    Fuckin' weird.....

  132. btw - BBC 1 has been replaced by a bunch of unrecognisable BBC World presenters and weather people - clearly not members of the NUJ.

    And that's another thing, there has been NO MENTION of this strike.... no info, no nothing, did Murdoch already buy the BBC without us being told?

  133. Evening all

    Brain like mashed spuds again so will be dipping in and out.

    Thaum - will be there Sunday I think and will call you.

    Hugs to all xx

    Turm and Jen especially. xx

  134. LaRit

    They did announce on radio 4 at 5.30pm that the previous programmed was a replacement of their normal schedule "due to industrial action by the NUJ". And they were saying that this morning too on 4,

  135. The welfare workers thread is attracting the usual nasties.

    Has anybody seen Mike Bach around on any of the threads recently ?

  136. Thauma

    Can you email me your mobile no incase I can make it down? Will try but have to kid sit tomorrow night so it'll be on Sunday.

  137. Sent it, Sheff.

    You'd better make it down - or else!

  138. Thauma:

    Sent you an e-mail..... ;0)

  139. Hi All--Quick pop-in, as am on the road to Vancouver to see BB King. Looking forward to it.

    Sheff--Best to your brother, hopefully he'll get through this okay. My youngest bro just had surgery for prostate cancer and things seem fine but maybe too soon to say. Your advice regarding checkups is important as early diagnosis can make a huge difference.

    Turm--Tough one with the job,best to you too. BTW--Excellent piece on UT2, also agree with others that you may want to submit for ATL reading.

    To those fortunate enough to attend the meetup, please have a blast.


  140. Boudican

    BB King - you lucky bugger. I've only seen him live once - here in Sheffield back in the 80s - what a gig!!

    Spoke to my bro this evening - he's very upbeat - although the rest of us are quailing a bit and doing our best to hide it.

  141. BB:

    Hi ;) will e-mail soon ;)

    Generally failing here.... just one quick post re: Stephen Fry gaffe (apparently loads of women have been expressing their anger at his comments this week) 'R4 Over to You' today regarding the ubiquitous Stephen Fry..... a listener wrote in to say:-

    " I will be cancelling my Direct Debit for the BBC license fee and setting up one directly into Mr Fry's bank account"

    There then followed a 'medley' of his pontifications.... including, most recently, boring us to death reciting his, dull, self-serving, self-satisfied musings in the form of his own memoirs on Book of the Week last week..... bloody hell, I knew it was bad, but you may as well call R4, R2 BBC1, BBC2, Directline, Harry Potter films.... blah, blah, fucking blah, his own personal broadcasting service.

    The less than guarded disgruntlement felt by regular staff on R4 seemed palpable...

    this gem from the presenter...

    "we asked Stephen Fry's agent to comment on the criticisms but they declined" follwed with the quip (along the lines of) "well, that's got to be a first"!!!! lol

  142. Nice one, LaRit! :o)

    Sheff - hope your bro will be fine.

    Boudican - you lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky bastard!

    Although I am getting to see the great Bitterweed on Sunday with a bit of luck, so almost as good :p

  143. For those who have posting rights on CiF and who like SelfMadeMan, he is currently gigging on WADDYA.

  144. This comment has been removed by the author.

  145. Muppet

    serious question: does sticking around and posting the likes of..

    "Now now Monkeypoo, Eat up your tea and stop sulking. Just because that horrible man at the Guardian took away all your comments, there's no need to go into a massive sulk again."

    ..make you look more or less of a prick?

    It's an interesting question...maybe someone should propose it on waddaya.

    "Jess, should EnglishKermit disappear now that he's devoid of credibility, has been exposed as vicious minded little Englander and is widely regarded as a figure of total ridicule...or does his deployment of "quack" and a serious of lame juvenile 'insults' offer prospect of redemption?"

    "That's an interesting question...anyone know of anybody who...No not you Martyn!...might have any expertise in this area? it would make a fascinating ATL piece."

    This is really getting to you isn't it..eating you up?...Well...it's hardly my fault you're here.

    And as for...

    "Just because that horrible man at the Guardian took away all your comments..."

    It's not like it's an issue posting...and the fact that they get wiped is no less than a eulogy ...they couldn't possibly last...some things burn with such coruscating...incandescent...numinous intensity that they dilute the fabric of existence

    My candle burns at both ends
    It will not last the night;
    But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends -
    It gives a lovely light.

    Just look at your own leaden dross and how it pollutes the sensibilities...and it remains.......and endures..sub specie aeternitatis

  146. Piss funny moment of the day, EnglishHermit forgetting he'd logged on as himself at 16:30.

  147. Turminder, great post on ut2. Hope you're getting to enjoy a bit of Diwali (sorry, La Rit, it predates Guy Fawkes night by quite a bit).

    Anyway, isn't this night supposed to celebrate the fact that someone failed to blow up parliament?

  148. Latest suggestion from heavily gvt. funded A4E.

    Imagine this situation… An employer asks you in an interview ‘Why have you had a gap in your employment and what you have been doing?’

    Then picture saying ‘I set up my own job club with some friends and we worked together to motivate ourselves to get back into employment resulting in six of us getting back to work over a six month period.’

    What do you think that would show someone? It demonstrates team work, entrepreneurial initiative, caring for others and most importantly being massively proactive.

    So get out there and start a job club today. Let me know how you get on.

    Love Emma x

    We could start a combined job club and lost bird refuge here on UT - may qualify for funding.

  149. Habib

    Some of us celebrate the attempt while mourning the failure.

  150. Quack, Quack, Quack, I'm on Smack....

  151. Leni, ha ha. Although, wasn't it less about freedom and more about restoring Catholicism to England?

    Besides, who are we kidding? We couldn't really kill people.... could we?

  152. Quaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack I'm a praaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

  153. Habib

    Nah - we couldn't kill people. I sometimes dream of being dangerous but it's just a fantasy.

    We will have to be more subversive - catch them on the quiet.

    Yes it was about restoring Catholicism. We have a purer motive today.

  154. Can anyone get Ray Alan's arm out of my backside?


  155. Evening Leni and Habib

    I wish i had some idea of where all these new jobs in the private sector are going to be created.With the level of job losses in the pipeline and the Welfare Reforms there is going to be a massive increase in the labour supply in the next few years but where is the demand for labour going to come from?

    Quite clearly the ConDems are hoping to keep wages down in the formal economy with high unemployment.Whilst more and more unskilled jobs will be driven into the informal economy.And as for the voluntary sector filling the breach left by the public sector cuts how is that supposed to happen?Where are all these new volunteers going to come from if the unemployed are looking for work with A4E breathing down their necks and the employed are continuing to work the longest hours in Europe.Will pensioners be mobilized and be given an extra tenner for their troubles or will workfare programmes force the long term unemployed to do some of the jobs on the cheap that should be done by the public sector?

  156. Paul, I'm afraid all the answers to your questions are the ones you know. (basically - nobody in power cares.) Sorry.

    Leni, regarding the purer motive, should we try and help English Hermit?

  157. Paul

    i have seen suggestions for volunteers to be rewarded with shopping vouchers - I presume anyone on benefits would have to declare their value and lose benefit to match.

    there will be very few new jobs created - for the simple reason that the first 1 million (should they ever come along ) will not be jobs created but jobs replaced. Again - its in the language.

  158. Habib

    You speak of a lost soul - he should of course be helped. Perhaps when he regains some coherency he will let us know what we can do for him.

  159. This comment has been removed by the author.

  160. Paul

    i see you have removed the link to the duck and duckling protectors.

    I think wildduck needs more than a bit of friendly shepherding.

  161. Could someone check the spam filter?

  162. "Enough wildduck...you win"

    Don't be fucking ridiculous!

  163. Habib

    No mate..be fair..he's too good..

  164. I hate to admit that. Fucking hate it.

  165. I was hoping to get him on side without admitting it.

  166. Habib

    here is no way of even deciding which side he is on - he is incoherent. Some of his recipes put a badly disturbed 14 year old to shame. He has no discernible agenda - other than disruption - makes neither sense nor point.

    he know enough about UT to understand that had he just wanted a good row someone would have obliged.

    Not funny - just risible.

  167. No, Leni, there is a lot to be gained from English Hermit coming out of his shell. He has a lot more to say than "quack".

  168. yes habib - I agree. I am simply saying he is going the wrong way about it.

    Some of his posts on Cif have been interesting - not that i always agreed with him but that is not the point.

  169. Maybe this quackfest is a cry for help!

  170. Okay, would you like a song? I'd rather you played one, Leni, you have better taste...

  171. (I didn't mean compared to you, Paul, I meant compared to me) For example:
    I've got this one. There's something good about recordings.

  172. I feel mortally wounded by that comment and whilst i don't usually bear a grudge i can only be mates with you again after i've subjected you to THIS

    Definitely off now


  173. Ahh, the memories. Old Trafford. Night night, good rest and good health to you, Paul.