17 November 2010


If you want to know your past, look into your present condition.
If you want to know your future, look into your present actions.
-Chinese Proverb


  1. Today's image is a uacari -- which I had never heard of until yesterday. I'm sure the rest of you know all about them. And today's quote was provided by Joe -- it's from his class's weekly writing practice sheet. He likes to help me with the thread starters.

    Got caught up on yesterday's Waddya nonsense. Both amusing and sad. I did try to point out to the luvvies a couple of months ago that it is entirely within the realm of possibility -- probability even -- that Monkeyfish, Hank and Scherfig weren't the only people who despised a few of them, but apparently they still have a hard time grasping that.

    Still, if it means that Selfmademan & BettyStanton drop by here for a visit from time to time (or even become regulars!), at least there's an upside (for us, anyway).

  2. Morning Montana,

    as last night appeared to be an evening of revelations, I should point out that I am monkeyfish and GIYUS. Glad to have got that out there.

    I know it's of limited interest to everyone outside of the netherlands but I do think it is of importance in highlighting the nauseating hypocrisy of right wing and far right wing politics.

    On top of the Eric Lucassen story yesterday, it has just been revealed that another one of Wilders PVV MP's Richard de Mos lied about his past also. He claims on the PVV website and application to be an MP that he was a school headteacher which he has never been. It must have slipped his mind.

    Meanwhile it's rumoured that at least another 10 PVV MP's have criminal records. Which no doubt will be revealed in the coming weeks.

    Remember this is the "Party of law and order".

    Don't you think the other two coalition parties would have, you know, checked thoroughly the background and trustworthiness of the party members they agreed to govern with or does this not matter as long as the right wing socio-economic agenda can be pushed through?

  3. "as last night appeared to be an evening of revelations, I should point out that I am monkeyfish and GIYUS. Glad to have got that out there."

    Events here in the last 24 hours have reminded me of the scene in Dead Poet's....

  4. Montana - thanks for confirming, knew it was kosher, but given the stalky-type activities of some on here...cheers.

    yr grace
    "Don't you think the other two coalition parties would have, you know, checked thoroughly the background and trustworthiness of the party members they agreed to govern with or does this not matter as long as the right wing socio-economic agenda can be pushed through?"
    It's starting to remind me a bit of the Altamont festival organisers...
    "we need security, but don't have any money for it"
    "we could get the hell's angels in, pay them with beer"
    "good idea - wait, might they not be a little bit unreliable?"
    "nah, they'll be fine. after all, we do need security, and don't have any money"
    "yeah, you're right, I'll give them a call"

    something like that.

  5. Philippa,

    apposite comparison. As this link shows (it's in Dutch), 13.8% of youths of Moroccan background have been involved in criminal activities in Gouda (a problem town at the moment), 20% of PVV MP's in parliament have been involved in criminal activities.

    As well as being the "party of law and order", they support a Government whose motto is freedom and responsibility.

    How right wing politics works.

  6. Meerkatjie,

    yeah, monkeyfish and GIYUS are my Tyler Durden alter egos. I don't even know I am them until I start on "project mayhem" on WADYYA.

  7. Bonjour all!

    Quick visit just to leave a link to a few words on 'female quotas' by Christine Lagarde the French Finance Minister.

    She actually had a life and career before politics, and I think she expresses herself better (in english too) than most english politicians ?

    Good day, frog2

  8. bloody hell, yr grace - and i can imagine what was extrapolated from the Gouda figures.

    Just checking, from his list of the PVV 'whiter than white':

    1. Dion Graus – openlijke geweldpleging, stalking van meerdere vrouwen, fraude met zijn cv - that's stalking and lying about CV, but can't get the first bit - public nudity?
    2. Hero Brinkman – bedreiging, openbare dronkenschap, diefstal (van bier) en openlijke geweldpleging - public drunkenness, theft of beer, can't get first or last (unless am right about public nudity)
    3. Mellony van Hemert – cv-fraude (opgestapt om "medische redenen") - claiming to be a doctor?
    4. Arjan Brogt – oplichting (ineens "verdwenen" van de kandidatenlijst) - first thought 'uplighting' (Ikea theft?) so... arson?
    5. Gidi Markuszower – verboden wapenbezit (opgestapt na "aanhoudende negatieve berichtgeving") - erm....illegal wasp-killing? more seriously - perjury?
    6. Jhim van Bemmel - faillissementsfraude - insurance fraud?
    7. Marcial Hernandez – openlijke geweldpleging - am pretty sure that doesn't in fact mean public nudity...
    8. Eric Lucassen - bedreiging, openlijke geweldpleging - nor that...

    they don't have vocab like this on my normal dutch lessons, heheheheheheh.

  9. Philippa,

    uitstekend nederlands!

    openlijke geweldpleging- spontaneous intimidation/violence.

    oplichting- swindling/fraud.

    faillissementsfraude- irregular financial trnsactions.

    openbare dronkenschap- drunk in public (he also assaulted a barman)

    verboden wapenbezit- carrying an illegal weapon

    opgestapt na "aanhoudende negatieve berichtgeving- deported after consistent "negative activities".

    Gidi Markuszower was the undercover Mossad agent who Wilders chose as a candidate.

  10. Philippa,

    meant to ask, is there any reason you're learning Dutch?

  11. ta, yr grace! should have got the 'wapon' one.

    and that's a bit of a joke - it's just 'yes' is one of the best streams for the footy, and they often host dutch TV. hence my previous essays at the language...

    undercover mossad agent? that's just funny on several levels.

    ok - chores. see you later!

  12. I dunno about everyone else - but it lasted me about 10 days and a few innocuous posts, in the "oh this is really good" vein. The latter was hard, I am such a cynically grumpy old bugger.

  13. Cheers Tim, getting slightly fed up with it now, especially because I know why they modded me, but I don't agree that I deserve it!

    (and sorry, if/when it comes through I've posted on WDYWTTA about not talking about the royal wedding, before your Burchill post though!)

  14. "How long does premod last?"

    About six months, then I gave up. No replies to emails. Wankers may as well ban people.

  15. The pre-mod thing is terrible, you can't enter a debate in real time, and yet they post things at the time you hit send - which by the time they post it might mean your post is completely redundant. I found the delay awfully frustrating. It might have been Karmha though, the day before they got me, I was laughing at meerkatjie who was in pre-mod.

    This is also the perfect time for SMM to write an open letter to Ms Middleton, declaring his love and challenging the dude to a duel. heheheh.

  16. Yep, the delay is bloody frustrating! Last time I even asked the mods nicely, in my post, to put it in when they passed it, not when I hit send, they passed it then put it in when I pressed send, including my comment to them!

    BTW if the mods are hanging out in that corner behind the abandoned bikes while we lurk behind the shed here having a metaphorical fag:

    Your mothers were hamsters and your fathers smelled of elderberries!

  17. Wow, monkeyfish's comment stayed up until 10am!!! And I'm not even in pre-mod, yet...

    I'm sure it's just a coincidence that kizbut referred to it minutes before it was modded.

  18. "Just scroll like I do past anything horrid", she said....

    she stops scrolling long enough to a)take a copy b) respond c) hit the "report abuse" button.

    "just scroll"

  19. chores done! bought jumper. €9. i like C&A.

  20. well done, dot! real-time commentary rights restored...

  21. Yep, shame there's nothing much worth commenting on ;-)

  22. Afk for a bit chaps. Interview on friday, thanks for asking Leni ; )

    IT support bod on the phone, temp till April, which is when the Summer job starts, so legs, arms, swords, fingers and anything else you can think of, get em crossed! l8rs peeps ; )

  23. Old Katbox sure is making herself busy these days. What IS it she does for a living again ?LOL

    By the way, thanks all for the messages re checkhov. We have made contact.

  24. It wouldn't actually surprise me if pre-mod was a way of creating artificial enthusiasm for days when there's an excessive amount of pap.

    Free a few people, and let them go a bit daft because they can, rather than because they want to.

    Job done!!

  25. Haha - that's twice in 12 hours I've been called that on the UT. On the UT.

    Maybe it's time to invest in a Paul McKenna Self-help CD...

  26. Just wafting by waving .... off to work and just typed a quick hello and a big good luck to Turm and then.... pfffut! Post gone in a puff of green smoke....

    K off to werk ;)

  27. Which, I'm sure will be a load of old bollocks, made with the sole purpose of redistributing wealth upwards from the desperate to the McKenna yacht!

    Oh shit, hang on a minute.....

  28. good luck, turm - hope this one is less ridiculous than the last one...

  29. Morning all

    "Working at home" today - which is a good term for skiving. I could have been doing an asylum case if I had been prepared to leave the house at half-past six, get a train into London to pick up a bundle of approx 250-300 and prepare the case on the train on the way to the Tribunal, but I decided that the client deserved much better treatment than that and declined the offer. I sometimes wonder if our clerks think we have special psychic powers or something...

    Turm - good luck with the job interview. Everything crossed here, including me eyes.

    Good that you are out of premod, Dot.

    Your Grace - what on earth is going on in Holland at the moment? I know everyone is on drugs but allowing Wilders to carry on the way he does is beyond bloody satire, frankly.

    Philippa - C&A reminds me of a very old joke about a pair of knickers that I won't repeat here... :p

  30. JD - you got that about right... :o)

  31. BB - was meaning to ask, what's your take on dave-davey-daverson's proposed changes to Legal Aid and stuff??

    (Apols if you've already addressed this and I've missed it...)

  32. Positive thoughts and vibes for Turminderjie.

    James, you wanted to play Countdown? Here's your first letters round:

    C I F I S S H I T

  33. Afternoon all

    Good luck with the job interview Turminder. And from yesterdays thread i hope your problem with your neighbour sorts itself out LaRit. We came to blows with some neighbours of ours a few years ago so i know what a bastard it can be.

    @Found this little boy of about 5 or 6 crying in the street yesterday.Thankfully a neighbour of mine knew where he lived so took him home.However she told me that the boy was often found wandering about and that the social are involved as the parents are useless.There's a depressing inevitability about how this boy will turn out as he gets older irrespective of whether he stays with his parents or goes into care.Really don't know why some people have kids.

    btw Habib i saw your post on waddya yesterday.Nice one !

  34. Good luck for Friday Turm.

    It was so cold this morning that it woke me up, I've had to get the winter duvet out so expect a freak warm spell any day now.

    They still have C & a in France? Weird.

  35. "I've got a 6,
    Then gimme the 9!"

    - ZZ Top.

  36. Jenni - and M&S has decided to come back again after making 2500 long-term staff redundant when the did a runner a few years' ago . 'Free Movement of Everything' Capitalism for yer ..

    Turminder -- XX monsieur Paz !

  37. The current score on waddya is bru 17 comments - kiz 15 comments.
    Play will resume after lunch when they're both back at work in the office, and will cease around 17.00 when they are exhausted after a heavy day, and will have to go home and relax.

  38. Dott, I'm going to kick myself, what is the six???

    I'm guessing my 8 describing Kiz doesn't count? "hissifit"?

  39. Oh and cheers, Paul, but monkeyfish's comment was far better, but removed.

  40. Come on habib, even I got shifts. ;)

    Dots is probably something sciency and clever.

  41. Trident Ploughshares pacifists are Domestic Extremists??!

    "Apparently so. The police officer pictured above (centre) is Ian Caswell, known to work for the National Public Order Intelligence Unit (NPOIU), one of three 'domestic extremism' units making up NCDE. Fitwatch was sent this photograph showing him keeping tabs on the Trident Ploughshares Big Blockade in Plymouth on the morning of the 1st November.

    Those in charge of deciding on cuts in the police service should wonder at the justification for using a very expensive specialist unit (£9m per year) to spy on pacifist protesters. Surely something better to do?" FITWATCH

    Tsk Tsk . Next thing you know those bloody extremists will be photographing the dedicated professional Atos staff processing so-called 'claimants' at Work Capability Assessments, or the hardworking ' trainers' at the A4e (moneyspinning and how, hehe ) inspirational 'Back to No-Work' programmes .

    Completely ridiculous and nigh on terroristic that these people should be singled out and targeted . Why, they are only obeying orders... , "Befehl Ist Befehl" as they say in German .

    Hang on, what's that you say, it was the Nuremburg Defence . . . ?

    Anyone know a good lawyer ?

  42. Jenn, kicking myself with unabandoned misery.

  43. (got booted off internet for a bit, so this is a bit out of sequence...)


    Because the old, cynical me (the one who hadn't just downloaded 'turn that frown upside down' from iTunes) thought that, if I understood it properly, removing LA from asylum/immigration type cases was perhaps just another ruse to make it considerably easier to find, exploit, and expend cheap labour, and create a massive pool of desperate and vulnerable people without any kind of voice or protection.

    Obviously, the new me thinks that it's probably another brilliant money-saving scheme from which we will all benefit equally.


    HAHAHA - is it:

    'The thing is though, Cameron's actually a really, really great guy, and is ever so polite and thoroughly decent, and frankly, we could all do with a bit of a firm hand, being all lazy and irresponsible and that - By Mr Kettle and Mr Glover'??*

    *There is a chance I've maybe used a few too many letters there....

  44. @frog

    Well, Trident Ploughshares is known for breaking into places and smashing things up, which is quite extreme as demonstrations go. The fact that they're pacifists doesn't make them any less criminal.

    Same goes for the SmashEDO crowd here in Brighton, who were shamefully acquitted for breaking up a local factory with a frankly bizarre summing up from the judge.

  45. Nce one monkeyfish as well.Assumed you were the satirist in question but wasn't 100% sure having not fully read yesterday's thread.

  46. Hi Jenn/Habib

    No, mine was SHIFTS too!

  47. wotsisface from the indie having a go at the guardian r***l w*****g coverage - "having their cake and eating it". oh yes. can't believe the news just had some drooling 'economist' on claiming this will end the current financial crisis...

  48. Of course it will!!

    I've already started making teatowels and shitty novelty mugs.

    I'm gonna be rich I tells ya, rich...


  49. PeterJ-- don't know anything about them, just posted for the Fitwatch site really, and of course the Nuremburg Defence, for BB !

    Well it depends on the target , for me, as I don't think sanctity of property is sacred ( unconscious tautology or summink ? there .. it just came out so I left it !) :)

    Sometimes also the damage is exaggerated . A mate of mine campaigned alonside José Bové in the 2008 Regionals, got to know him. The Press repeats that they trashed the MacDo , when in fact they unbolted it with socket sets ...

    Even the BBC says they dismantled the MacDo, while others always insist it was trashed.

    A rather good article --

    "In the background there has long been unease at American corporate power and influence, as represented by McDonalds. Bové has concerns about how the food sold in McDonalds is farmed, sourced, and processed. He opposes the bland homogenisation of culinary culture as represented by a soggy Big Mac. There were community concerns about litter, and the impact of a multinational on local businesses.

    It was hormone-treated beef that finally sparked the action. Such beef, where the cattle are fed hormones to artificially speed up their growth had been blocked from entering European markets by the EU on health grounds. In tit-for-tat trade retaliation, the US, backed by the WTO, imposed high tariffs on some 'luxury' European food products, including Roquefort cheese.

    This tariff was a severe economic blow to the farmers of South West France where Roquefort is made. The construction of a McDonalds nearby, to sell this hormone-treated meat to them in a sesame seed bun with 'French' fries seemed to add insult to injury. " BBC article on José Bové

    A bit of action gets the publicity ...

    PS Of two nearby 'Rightwing' Senators, one has been 'owned' by Monsanto since the beef-hormone days, the other is against GMO's because he researched it as chairman of an Inquiry .

  50. bbc has just lost all scheduled programmes.

    could somebody int he uk look out a window and let us know if the invasion has started?


  51. Also, on the subject of the RW:

    Despite the general consensus that this 'choice' shows the Royal family reaching out to the middle class, maturing and getting down with the times and peeps or whatever, was anybody else thinking that maybe, they'd looked at William's rather large head, and disturbingly early onset baldness, Harry's rather bizarre behavioural tendencies, and actually decided it was perhaps time to allow some fresh stock into the gene pool...??

    Or was that just me being cynical again?

  52. as you were, they've managed to find the archers.

  53. It would have probably been quite hard to tell either way round these parts anyway.

    Right, off to my Gran's.

    Have a good afternoon folks!

  54. The Royal Wedding is just Soooo exciting - and that Kate is a normal middle class lass don't ya know. Anyway I am going to go into business making rag rugs of their faces and selling them toaddled royalists.

    Oooh just seen Toblerone have bought a new chocy out - thin slices of toblerone called toblero or some such.; I always find the big ones hard to eat (to do with knackered jaw) so thin ones are a great invention.

  55. @Dave

    The thing about M&S's closure in France was the breathtaking capitalist logic of it. In fact, unlike M&S UK, the French operation was making quite a decent profit. They decided to shut it down to sell off the French premises and grab the cash.

    I was on the London demo since I was in England at the time and the party asked me to interpret for Robert Hue, who was then general secretary and went on the march.

    We had lunch in a pub. He was a very nice bloke who used to sing and play guitar for a rock 'n' roll band. I liked him very much as a person, but studiously avoided talking about politics because I thought he was complete crap as GS. He's now left the party and joined the PS, much as I thought he might.

  56. Right, I'm going to throw a big rock at the next person to mention the Bl**dy R£y@l Weeding, stop upping the Google hits on the whole charade!

  57. @James

    Surely Harry has brought 100% new stock into their gene pool and look at what a success that's been.

  58. Oh excellent news PCC, I love toblerone but always had a sneaking suspicion that they just edged out diamond as the hardest substance in the know universe, I will be trying toblero as soon as I see them. :)

  59. Too right Dott, I have decided that I will simply not mention or watch anything to do with it, I don't even want to hear about it in terms of the cuts.

    It just doesn't exist for me, in fact I don't even know what I am talking about right now. ;)

    I wanted to watch the thing about the oil spill today but CH4 have decided not to put it on 4OD, does anyone know if you can watch it online?

  60. I love the BBC, but it does make it difficult sometimes.

    I had the telly on last night as a I typed. The One Show came on and I was subjected to smirking scum Gyles Brandreth talking about the fucking Royal Wedding for at least thirty seconds before I could reach the remote.

    Surely that must count as cruel and inhuman?

  61. Spike,

    hehe, possibly.

    Although, of the suspected 'contenders', none of them were exactly salt of the earth type of chaps, if I recall correctly!

    Definitely off now...


  63. Wow, thanks, DT! A giant stick of pink rock with "The Untrusted - Go fuck yourself" written all the way through it!

  64. Yep, and you know what you can do with it ;-)

  65. Jen - lol they are very hard!

    Oh god bit fuming. Just been told by a feminist on the name change thread that by being one of those 'spineless' women who change their name I am complicit in a whole host of nasty things like the acceptance of rape within marriage!

    What the fuck!!

    This is part of the comment: ''Changing a name on marriage is one end of a continuum that has at its other end legalised rape in marriage, legal wife-beating, legal dismissal of a woman from her job on marriage, and the legal automatic transfer of all a woman's property to her husband on marriage.
    Anyone who changes their name is endorsing all this, and showing their contempt for everything women have achieve in the last century. If everyone kept their name, then it would force society to correct all these little 'inconveniences' that lead spineless women to change their names to make a 'family unit'. ''

    Okay I must be really thick (and by the way I have no issue with women who keep their family name on marriage but some of the responses on that thread were bonkers) but how is keeping one mans name (i.e. your fathers) that is part of a centuries old patriarchal tradition, any more or less feminist than taking another mans name (your husbands) as per a century's old tradition?

  66. @Dot

    Glad you're out of pre-mod. Back in the day, before they had pre-mod, my SpikeParis identity was "suspended". Permanently, as it turned out, but they never admitted they were banning me.

    BTW, wonderful post from SMM - who's obviously soooo stil pre-modded - on Whaddya:

    17 November 2010 11:44AM

    I would like to thank everyone on this thread for their comments and simply for being their wonderful selves.

    Mrs Selfmade shares these sentiments.

  67. Had my own R***l W*****g moment of nausea last night, watching tv. The host of this current affairs programme that I watch was interviewing some chiquita who's a BBC World News reporter (skinny blonde, didn't catch the name) about it in that tone of, "Oh, you crazy Brits and your olde worlde queen nonsense!"

    The thing that really made me want to lose my cookies was that Blondie shamelessly pandered to the stereotype. She made it sound like everyone in Britain was breaking out the Union Jack bunting and toasting the happy couple.

    (Unexpected day off work for me. Got there, found out that my student's parents had called to say that she was ill & wouldn't be at school. They didn't need a sub anywhere, so I get sent home. Without pay, of course.)

  68. OK. I am announcing this early.

    Next year I will be throwing a huge all-dayer to block out this f@cking wedding, to which Radio 5 has seemingly already managed to give 24 hours of unfetterd gushing praise.

    It will on be the day of "the other event" (there will no future mention of w@dding where possibly avoidable).

    Details to follow. All welcome.

  69. @PCC

    Is that Bidisha in disguise?

    The republicdaughter is only considering future marriage so she can change her shit family name.

  70. Hmm. I hope Dot's throwing arm isn't good enough to send anything across the Atlantic and half of North America.


    You're not thick. They're stupid and bitter.

  71. Spike -- interesting about Robert Hue, how some of the 'names' can be human too ...

    Harry 100% new blood, hehe you old gossip ..

    incoming rock ?

  72. Spike

    I was thinking that myself, changing my rubbish surname is the only reason I can think of for getting married at all. ;)

  73. @Montana

    Never underestimate the ability of the English to go completely mass-hysterical over royalty (see death of Diana).

    You don't get paid when you actually go into work and they can't give you any? Is US labor law that bad or are you self-employed?

  74. @BW:

    Shall I RSVP now? If there is a God, Thatcher will kick the bucket right just before then and it'll be the blowout of the century.

  75. jen
    It seems the only rational response. Could have one big festival of wrong, or we could have a regional network of events. South. Midlands (I'll sort that one). North England. Scotland etc - just so we know everyone's doing the same thing, ha ha ! Be good to do it all in one place though...

  76. Spike, hope they free SMM soon!

    BW, I'm hoping it ends up being the same day as one of the three I'm invited to next year, simply so that I can respond to any talk of it as if it were my friends' wedding and not that one, just to confuse people!

  77. Montana,

    Don't worry, I throw like a girl!

  78. Ah. If it's the death of Thatcher, I'm afraid I'm already invited to my sister's party. She's laid in a stock of red balloons and I have an mp3 of "Ding-dong, the Witch is Dead" ready to play on a loop.

  79. Just been to the doctor and asked if he's got anything for wind. He gave me a kite.

  80. @Spike:

    Yes, US labo(u)r law is that bad. According to our contracts, they're supposed to pay us for 2 hours of work when this happens, but they never actually pay you that unless you stay and do something for two hours -- which usually ends up being something like filing or tidying the supply closet.

    Now, our contracts don't state that we have to do two hours of work to receive that pay -- but the district knows no one is going to go to the trouble of filing a grievance with the union over it. And that, if anyone did, the union rep would say that it wasn't worthwhile to pursue the claim.

  81. Spike - snap. Got that MP3 download too - will open the windows and play it loud and proud. I am a bit worried I will be overcome with emotion when Thatch dies and people will think I am crying for her when I will be crying over the fucking futility of what she did and how many lives she destroyed.

    Montana - they really are mental some of those women. I mean I get why they might not want to change their names, I do. But they are still part of a patriarchal tradition if they keep their fathers name - its their inability to see that, that gets right on my tits.

    Oh I said tits - they'll probably string me up if they ever come here!

  82. @Montana

    And the union isn't fighting to get that changed? When I was working in a language school back in 79 and they were applying all kinds of illegal conditions, at least when we turned up for a lesson and the student didn't, we still got paid.

    Ah well, I hope you're enjoying your unwanted day off anyway.

  83. PCC They haven't let them out of that asylum Jay found a while back have they?

  84. @PCC

    How about if we were given a provisional surname and were allowed to choose our own at 18? Is it still relatively easy to change your name in the UK? In France, you have to pay per letter changed and go through the courts. Nightmare. I used to live in the same building as a woman whose name meant "Bridget The Anus". I can't even begin to imagine what she went through at school.

  85. Oh, Princess, I know. But, like Jen & Spike's republicdaughter, I always looked forward to getting married almost as much for the sake of changing my last name as anything else.

    I did know a couple in Seattle who wanted to have one family name after their marriage but were uncomfortable with either of them taking the other's surname and they didn't want to hypenate, so they took "Sirius" as their surname. Don't remember what the significance was to them, but they had a particular reason for choosing it.

  86. No, Spike, the union won't do anything about it. See, they couldn't do it as a "class action" sort of thing -- it would have to be on a case-by-case basis and that would just be too time consuming and would cost more than the two hours of pay by quite a bit.

  87. Anyone know if the "non-white atheists" thread is as batshit crazy as it sounds? Tempted to look, but also a bit fearful.

  88. Anyone know if the "non-white atheists" thread is as batshit crazy as it sounds?

    Which one Montana, the one for non-white atheist women or the one for non-white atheist men?

  89. BW - good idea! Someone was suggesting a days of riots too. We could combine both activities.

    Philippa - BBC web site is not responding either.

  90. Montana - horrendous that there is nothing the union can do.

    spike - that is a bad name - anything 'anus-ey' isn't good. Years ago when I worked on this call center the IT bods had to have a pic on the company website, their names and a brief biog - noone else just the IT guys and gals.

    Anyway one of them had the surname Armor and his parents gave him the first name Rusty.

    I mean a good joke is one thing but making your child that joke - for the rest of their lives - is quite another!

    God not even half three and it is already getting dark in deepest South Yorks.

  91. I've just had a look Montana and it mainly seems to be people going 'huh, there is an atheist community, nobody asked me to join' which is a little bit disingenuous but yes it is a bullshit article.

    I don't spend a lot of time reading Cif anymore but the responses to the Helen Disney article remind me why it can sometimes be a great place, shame on the Guardian for again trying to pass off an article by a lobbyist as genuine comment though.

  92. @Montana

    So the unions see their basic role as bringing court actions? Whatever happened to the idea that a union is an organisation uniting workers and so giving them enough clout to force their employer to improve their pay and working conditions? The USA used to have a proud tradition of organised labour and industrial action.

    Yes, the Alom Shoha article is seriously weird. I'd just commented when I saw your post. :-)

  93. @Duke:

    Reading the Thomas Paine thread. Could kiss you for your comment @1:15! Idiot motherfucking rightwingers -- amazing how they can ignore 99.9% of what someone said, focus on one little phrase and distort the meaning of it all in the name of co-opting him.

    The notion that an amoral, self-serving slimeball like Dick Morris deserves any sort of award is offensive. To give him one named after Thomas Paine is a sick joke.

  94. On the subject of names, when I was in school, there was a set of identical twin girls in a town near here who played on their school's basketball team. Their last name was Dix. First names? Nita and Fonda.

  95. Hello all

    Quick quote from the Mam thingy on the disability thread.

    "Dignity is the preserve of those who can and do support themselves and their loved ones."

    We need new words to describe the attitudes developing in this country.

  96. montana - one has to wonder what the parents were thinking...

    leni - ffs. just when you think "that's the most MAM-ish MAM-ism ever", he outdoes himself again...

  97. Napoleon has said on waddya that he has a job teaching English in Russia next year.

    Well done Nap - would love to hear more about it .

  98. "Just been told by a feminist on the name change thread that by being one of those 'spineless' women who change their name I am complicit in a whole host of nasty things like the acceptance of rape within marriage!"

    FFS. Send her back to the early 80s where she belongs. It's really hard to maintain an argument that modern feminism isn't about this kind of rubbish when fossils keep surfacing and making inane comments like this.

  99. Leni

    That is great news, if you are reading Nap then congratulations, I am glad your hard work has finally paid off.

  100. I have only quickly scanned this thread but Bitterweed said:

    OK. I am announcing this early.

    Next year I will be throwing a huge all-dayer to block out this f@cking wedding, to which Radio 5 has seemingly already managed to give 24 hours of unfetterd gushing praise.

    It will on be the day of "the other event" (there will no future mention of w@dding where possibly avoidable).

    Details to follow. All welcome.

    Apart from everyone trying to get to Bitterweed's bash, it might be an idea to try to get as many people as possible to turn their backs on whoever these characters are who are getting married.

    Do we get the day off, like we did when Big Ears married The People's Bike?

    We need a massive boycott, especially if The Three Daves think they can use it for propaganda to show we are fucking all in this to-bleeding-gether.

  101. Someone should organise a Fuck the W*****g Party in the centre of London, that would be a laugh.

  102. Now William has decided that Kate is ideal breeding material for the heir and the spare i suppose it will only be a matter of time before the press reveal who his mistress is.

  103. 'Fuck the wedding party'??

    Easy there, Jen.

    There's a fair few Tories down South who may take that to mean that they've finally got their droit du seigneur privileges back!!

  104. James asked ages ago what my take was on the Legal Aid cuts.

    We are already seeing it in the criminal courts, where legal aid was reformed a couple of years ago for non-custodial offences and became means-tested in June this year for everything, including custodial offences.

    We are getting a hell of a lot more litigants in person in the Mags courts who go to trial with absolutely no defence whatsoever, wasting court time and trying the patience of the court legal advisers as they try their best to explain the procedures. So many of those who should plead guilty don't, and end up with multiple requests for adjournments because they haven't got their papers with them, or haven't got hold of their mate Bob who could be a witness or whatever, none of which would happen if they had proper legal advice.

    Then you get the other extreme, which is people who would have a defence in law pleading guilty because they haven't got advice, and ending up with a criminal record for something they didn't do because they are scared.

    And it is going to get a lot worse when the effects of the means-testing leads to people representing themselves in crown court cases. A two-day case will take 5 days for someone who doesn't have legal training, as being a lawyer is not just about knowing the law but also knowing the procedures, what is and isn't admissible in evidence, what can and cannot be adduced, and how it should all be conducted.

    So, in short, so far all it has done is to push the costs on to the courts in wasted time. Robbing Peter to pay Paul as usual, but hey! It's popular! :o)

  105. Cheers BB.

    Ain't looking good is it?

    (Still, it's probably not a bad idea to pre-emptively lock up all us scummers before we get a bit fractious and that, innit!!)

  106. Paul,

    'heir and a spare'.

    lol - Brilliant.

    (I'd happily watch coverage of the engagement if Witchell et al liberally scattered that phrase about!)

  107. I want to see Alexei Sayle commentating the

    Now that would be funny. :o)

  108. Gah.

    When will I ever learn to use puter language properly?

    Although it is hilarious that the missing sentence, which I put in the wrong kind of tags, was [the unmentionable thing that I won't talk about in case Dot throws a brick at me]

  109. James - it makes you wonder if that is what they were aiming at...

  110. Wogan would be quite good for the RL WG. Doing it like Eurovision...

  111. Or Jack Dee. Deadpan and really pissed off...

  112. Nah I think they should go for Stuart Lee, in a lot of ways I think he is overrated but he would do a good job in this case.

  113. Damn it, I am talking about it and I promised myself I wouldn't, I just have no self control what so ever. ;)

  114. BB - yeah, everything's falling into place quite nicely.

    (In an underground cave somewhere, I expect somebody's stroking a white cat with a very satisfied look on their face).


    whoever does the commentary, I know I'm going to be wishing that Bill Hicks was still around....

  115. @James

    Yep. I remember the first time I heard the Republican Guard stuff. Hilarious.

    Anyway, Tim Minchin, in the style of...



  116. hevers - thought provoking comment from you late last night/this am......

    "...is that the average, mean, income in Britain is... 30k.

    So even if one redistributed absolutely, it wouldn't get us all that far beyond the median wage. And though obviously an improvement for many, personally I don't know that it's enough. And in practice of course, redistribution is liable to achieve rather less.

    Wealth, of course, assets and stuff, is another matter. We could pay off our national debt several times over if we accessed all the wealth. But at a rough guess, it might mean 100k for each person in the country, which in many places wouldn't even buy much of a house.

    Of course, redistribution could free more people up to make a contribution, and up the national income and wealth. Redistribution can improve things, so I'm not arguing against it. I'm just pointing out that there are potentially certain limits on it."

    Of course this is a take on the old yarn - if we redistributed all the wealth at 8am tomorrow we would have rich and poor again by 8pm so lets not even waste our time ....etc

    I never bought that twaddle myself.

    What intrigues me about your observations above is ......what are you assuming is hidden in all those secret offshore tax havens?......what do you think all those tax avading Trust funds are worth.

    I strongly suspect that a fair and complete equitable redistribution of the wealth/product of past generations would significantly change things.

    As you say income is only a tiny part of the equation

    One thing I'm sadly sure of is that when my daughter was born 40 odd years ago, she was de facto in hock to the likes of Gerald Grosvenor/Duke of Westminster et al. And when she dies, her daughter in turn will be in the much the same position despite her merits and hard work...

  117. Haha,

    (If one of the channels gets Sarah Ferguson 'in the studio' for the do, we may well get a bit of that. Again, I'd probably watch!!)

  118. (My above in reply to Tim Minchin post)

    Evening Deano.

    Off out to watch the footie and eat massive amounts of pizza.
    Have a good night guys.

  119. @deano

    I never said, or implied, that we shouldn't redistribute on account of the inequality growing again. I wasn't thinking of that at all.

    I'm a big fan of reducing inequality, and have argued such on the Spirit Level threads.

    My point was that even with massive redistribution, it'll improve things, but not as much as I'd personally like to see.

    Redistribution would alleviate a fair amount of poverty, but it's not on its own going to make people comfortable - particularly the younger adults facing high mortgages and rents, big student debt, rising pension costs etc. etc. - and I'm kinda aiming for a degree of that.

  120. An unresolved scientific question for me - do the latest generation of Russian Oligarchs and assorted thieves have DNA link to thieves of the Czars era.

    As I understood it a lot of the then wealthy White Russians ran at the time of the revolution....I'd like to know something of the bloodline of current batch of thieves.

    Could be that next time a more extensive Romanov solution might be required.....

    I gather nasty nick clegg has white russain antecedants anybody know much about them?

  121. Yes, er thank you Leni and Jenni, tis true, I'll be off in January (visa issues excepting). I've been having a mixed time in Glasgow I suppose, going through the conveyor belt and getting rejected for toilet cleaning or burger flipping, but I've met a wide variety of people who I'll still keep in touch with. I'm only going for 9 months, and most importantly (IMHO) I can still carry on with my OU work online while I'm there- I'll be doing environmental science, coming back for the exam in October.

    Damn, my post on Cif telling PeculiarDemocracy to piss off has been deleted. She is a nasty piece of work and she ought to have been banned months ago, and yes unfortunately there are some Russians like that.

  122. Poor old selfmademan. Cif's room 101 got him in the end. He's on waddya now, crying Victory Gin tears and mumbling that he loves Big Brother.

  123. Aha, looks like SMM has escaped the pit of pre-mod - hooray!

  124. Betty, as usual, put it rather better....

  125. Oh you might be doing the same course as me Nap is it S216?

    Never mind that the job is only for 9 months it is a brilliant opportunity.

  126. James Dixon said...

    (If one of the channels gets Sarah Ferguson 'in the studio' for the do, we may well get a bit of that. Again, I'd probably watch!!)

    They should do one of those red button things offering alternative commentaries, and you get to pick which one.

    I'd quite like it in French. A la Izzard... "Mais la Princess de la Ros Boeufs... est dans L'arbre. Elle fait un orgy..." etc. etc.

  127. "..I never said, or implied, that we shouldn't redistribute on account of the inequality growing again. I wasn't thinking of that at all...

    I wasn't thinking or suggesting that you did.

    What intrigues me is more how could we possibly know, or even guesstimate, what the likely affect of an equitable redistribution would be since so much effort and law goes into keeping a true picture of private wealth secret and hidden.

    Actually I'm less interested in redistribution into private ownership and more interested in a redistribution into the commonwealth public purse.

    I would always want "opportunity" to be equally redistributed to each succeeding generation, and that kinda renders inherited wealth a limited possibility and the accrual of vast private wealth questionable since it would in the event be mostly redistributed again on death..

  128. Deano- this is a thorny issue. A large number of the oligarchs (I believe 6 of the top 7) have Jewish ethnicity, which is why far right scum like PD are quite strong in Russia.

    However I look at it a different way, it would be better if these 'Jewish' (ie in ethnicity only) oligarchs looked into the religious ethics of Judaism, at least then they might realise what harm they are doing. Although at the same time I accept that one does not need religion to have morality.

    It's a kettle of fish.



    Sorry about the shouting.

  130. S216- yes that is the one I want to start on Jen- you as well?

  131. Just popping in quickly to say to Sheff and MsChin - you've both got mail (sent it yesterday) but since my email is rubbish and often doesn't send, have re-sent it.

    Let me know if you need a lift etc - if you up for coming.

  132. I hope it works out for you Nap - sounds like a valuable adventure in the making.

  133. Napoleon - congratulations on the job. I'm sure it'll be a great experience.

    The religious ethics of Judaism are no worse or better than any of the other Abrahamic religions. Y'know, women are chattel, pork and shellfish are unclean, etc. etc. Same load of rubbish.

  134. Oh, and congrats to Dot also for making it out of pre-mod! Did you have to grovel?

  135. @deano

    Well, sure, it's hard to know for sure, but then again, we can't assume that the amounts salted away are necessarily going to make a huge difference. I mean, there would have to be a whole lot more squirrelled away to make that difference.

    And there is, of course, the problem that in teal world, we are liable to have some significant inequality, partly because it'll be hard to absolutely equalise, partly because as Marx and others said, some people NEED more, but also, there's the issue of incentive.

    Which is where I tend to part company with some lefties, because I do think we need some incentive in practice. Though obviously I'm not talking about bankers' bonuses here.

  136. Yeah Nap, I've signed up for S216, you will have to keep dropping in here, I might want to pick your brains. ;)

  137. Alas I am still in pre-mod.

    But if I do get ourt - if I do - then I am going after that Martin in Europe fellow big style.

  138. Unmade...

    Don't sound to me as if you got your mind right yet, boy.

  139. Montana,

    Reading the Thomas Paine thread. Could kiss you for your comment @1:15! Idiot motherfucking rightwingers -- amazing how they can ignore 99.9% of what someone said, focus on one little phrase and distort the meaning of it all in the name of co-opting him.

    it's funny- I saw the title of the piece, read the sub heading (having no idea who Dick Morris is) and knew immediately it would be Paine being claimed by dingbat right wingers who promote "hate the state" to enrich themselves.

    I dust down my old Thomas Paine reader, go back to read the article and kerrching!- sure enough it was dingbat right wingers claiming Paine on the basis of a deliberately warped reading of a few key Paine phrases.

    I certainly wouldn't claim Paine for the left but from studying him at Uni and having a fair knowledge of his canon, I'm sure he would be spitting blood at being associated with these loons.

  140. Well, that's a bit spooky! Selfmademan has just commented on waddya about gin-scented tears and loving Big Brother. And at the exact same minute that I posted here! What's going on?

  141. And Adam Smith would have been imprisoned in Guantanamo for Communist sedition if he was around today and had visited Washington.

  142. Regarding the opportunity thing, yeah, we're on the same page. I often point that out to right-wingers when they try and blame the poor for not having enough initiative.

    Cropped up on the Spirit Level threads, too. The RWNJs tend to ignore the fact that money can give preferential access to healthcare, preferential education, better housing, safer cars, safer neighbourhoods, safer employment,insulation from screw-ups, etc. etc.

  143. Betty

    It's lurve, Mrs Selfmade, lurve pure and simple


    is that from Cool Hand Luke?

  144. Shh Unmade, they read over here you know, countdown to Martyn telling everyone you threatened him starts now.

  145. Cheers Nap

    Of course I was aware of the possibility - a name like Abramovich kinda gives a clue to one at least.

    I hasten to add I ain't for torching the bastards for reason of possible religious origins but because of the propensity to thieving from the public purse or commonwealth....

    I don't have any reason whatsoever to believe that all people with Jewish ancestry have DNA which makes them potential thieves either.

    I seem to recall Marx and Engels were sort of interesting and decent guys in my book and I personally have high regard for the very many Jew's who have made fantastic contributions to civilised life.

    I feel exactly the same about the latest crop of Chinese thieves and they sure ain't of Jewish extraction.....

  146. Yeah, but no one understands what Martyn's saying half the time anyway. They'll think he's ordering a pizza or summat.

  147. Dear UnMadeMan (I assume that is a reference to the danger of disagreeing with the Boss in the mafia?),

    I am very sorry to hear of your continuance in purgatory. Since your last letter on Waddya appeared so very quickly, I assumed that you had been released for good behaviour, even if I suspect that Mrs UnMadeMan might have disagreed with that assessment, what with all the unpleasantness revealed by Mrs Burnout.

    No doubt there is an innocent explanation for it all.

    My letter to the moderators inexplicably remains unanswered.



  148. pick *my* brains. Hells bells, you won't get very far. This will be my first lv 2 course. Still the best thing to do is read up- the Guardian does actually do some real environmental science stories other than the Tamaras and Justins who blockade the airports. Plent other resources on teh web.

  149. I thought that film 2012 about a cataclysmic event hitting earth leaving few survivors was pure Hollywood hokum.

    I've just read that Sarah Palin is about to run for president in 2012

  150. Well Nap I am hoping that this course is a bit better than the last one I did regarding the source material you can use, if they are as rigid with this one then that is me done with the OU.

  151. Napoleon,

    all the very best in Russia, fantastic opportunity.

  152. Hello.

    Now look here, It's obvious that I'm mr & mrs selfmade, monkeyfish and hermione. I'm fed up with imposters stealing my thunder(s).

  153. Really Duke?

    Well Obama will be pleased, it is probably his best bet for a second term.

  154. My dear Ms Thauma

    Worry not. I am a resilient sort of a chap and find life in purgatory rather bracing. Perhaps all those years enduring Mrs Selfmade's basilisk eye have proved of some value. So far as the rumours of correspondence and even photographs of a liaison at Burnham-on-Crouch are concerned, by conscience is clear. Had Walton-on-the-Naze been mentioned that might be a different matter of course. Alas there is no innocent explanation for that (although, for the record, my brogues do not squeak).

    So far as my monicker is concerned, I am presently unmade until I am re-made as selfmade. I trust that is clear.


    PS I have my hands rather full with Miss Meekat at the moment, and her saucy underwear. But perhaps in due course you and I could dance the fandango, eh? Judging by your photo you are what I believe is known as an 'assertive lady'. That might be just what I need, my dear, if I am to be lciked into shape as required by the moderators. I am free most Fridays.

  155. Unmade, yes, it's from Cool Hand Luke. I often think of it when tempted to post something that might get me put back in pre-mod.

    "It's OK though, boss," (if any mods are looking in)"I got my mind right now. Got it right, boss!"

  156. I think you should continue Jen. Is it a named degree you are doing or just an open degree? If so, you could do some more varied modules.

  157. Nap

    a great opportunity for you. Hope the visa isn't too problematic. Great fun for the duration and the great for your cv. Teaching ESL/EFL can create oppotunities around the world.

    Did you hear of the job through your volunteering?


    I am Charliesays.

  158. And there is, of course, the problem that in teal world, we are liable to have some significant inequality, partly because it'll be hard to absolutely equalise, partly because as Marx and others said, some people NEED more, but also, there's the issue of incentive.

    During a workshop I attended once on family dynamics, the woman leading it quoted someone (I don't remember who) thus:

    Fairness isn't each one getting the same, it's each one getting what he needs.

    Her point was that, in families with more than one child, the children will almost certainly have different emotional, intellectual, or even financial needs. I think that the principle exists in society as a whole, myself.

    I could never begrudge someone with, say, cystic fibrosis, the portion of my tax that would be spent on whatever medical care necessary to help him lead as normal a life as possible. Nor could I begrudge anyone treatment for mental illness. Nor financial support for anyone who is unable to work for whatever reason. I would love to live in a country that did that sort of thing.

    Where do right-wingers get this notion that socialists want everyone to get the same amount of money no matter what job they do? Clearly, certain jobs deserve higher pay than others, dependening on the skill involved and the amount of trainging required. In the People's Republic of Wildhackia, there would also be some consideration of the relative contribution to the greater good, though I realise that deciding which occupations contribute to the greater good is a very subjective thing.

  159. Well done Nap! Hope you have a great time.



    I am Charliesays. "


    *shoots herself in the head*

  160. "... because I do think we need some incentive in practice....."

    I suspected that might be your position. Lots of people think that so your not alone.

    I think it another variant on special pleading by special interests. Always feels that if you push the position hard enough with some guys you come to down to a modle of humanity in which eugenics is a solution for our ills. Not my bag.

    I think a lot of so called incentives are in fact incentives to cheat, or manipulate or lie -I used to design incentive/bonus schemes for working men and women.

    I come across lots of people in life who are making herculean efforts (often for others)and who are not incentivised to do so. I always reject the notion personal and private gain has to be a necessary precursor to progress or action.

    I felt like that ever since I started to wonder what the incentive for kamikaze pilots was. It sure was heady stuff....

    The Dyson vacuum would in my book probably have come along in any event I think the causality link between incentives and its existence is weak to say the least

    I could live with some incentive nonsense, even a lot of it if necessary, it's not a problem if nearly all the loot goes back into the common pot at lifes end.

    Else we're really talking about 3P4's matters of dynastic tendency - I aint happy with that at all.

    Must cook a meal
    laters all

  161. Someone mentioned t'other day that we should upload pictures of hounds and other assorted animals to the picturestream. Could someone tell me how?

  162. Dear Mr UnMade,

    How lovely to see that an older gentleman and scholar still has a little lead in the old pencil.

    My confusion about your moniker arose from watching the Sopranos, where men like Paulie Walnuts and the young chappie whose name I can't at the moment remember are 'made'. I believe at least one of them was 'unmade' before the end of the series and this was apparently done in a rather gory fashion. So I am very glad that you are subject to more congenial type of unmaking.

    It is a shame that I cannot compete with Ms Meerkat on the underwear front as they are foreign objects to me. It is also unfortunate that I am generally only available on Thursdays, when Mr. Thaumaturge has his bingo night. Still, I sincerely hope that we can come to some arrangement.

    Yours breathlessly,


  163. Meerkatjie - if you send an e-mail to our genial hostess Montana (you'll find it by clicking on her profile), she will send you the necessary info.

  164. Montana I can live with wage differentials but not at current levels where one senior person's wage implies that they are worth hundreds of other lesser folk.

    I can live with (a little) inherited wealth - say a max equivalent to one years average income for each child. (Me old antagonist Grosvenor will be leaving his kids rather more methinks)

  165. Leni is Charleysays.

    I knew it. ;)

  166. My dear Thaumaturge

    Salivating as I am at the thought that underwear and you are strangers (though is that entirely hygienic?), on balance I wonder if the best thing might be for me to accompany your better half to bingo on a thursday night. To be honest, I am rather exhausted with all the attention I have been getting recently and (entre nous) Miss Meerkat has left me not so much unmademan as unmanmade. Back in the 50s I could have kept pace with her, and more than that I venture to say. These days, I get breathless simply unhooking a corset (I am obliged to wear one for my back, you understand).

    So unless I hear otherwise, I'll pop round at 6-ish tomorrow, off to bingo with matey whilst you wash your hair, and then perhaps a slurp of the Macallan back at your place to finish things off. How does that sound?

    Yours wheezily


  167. I didn't say you should meerkat but that you could and if so yours would be joining other UT dog nuts. There are quite a few of us.

    Always a pleasure to see other folk's dog pictures.

    Sadly since we started a couple of dogs have departed, but that's the sad reality of the calculus of pain and pleasure of dog owning as I'm sure yous know.

  168. Dear Mr Selfmademan

    I feel it necessary to point out that offering The Macallan to Ms Thaumaturge is likely to offend her sensibilities, she being of Erin extraction.

    You may find that a fine bottle of aged Jameson's would be more likely to charm her.

    Yours, etc.

    Mrs Burnout, B.

  169. Thanks Thauma, I've done that.

  170. At least I hope that I didn't say that you should it would be uncharacteristically territorial of me if I did.

    I have no special rights on UT I'm just happy to be tolerated and glld that I can't be thrown off.

    It's one of life's delights to be in place from which you can't be banished.

  171. Hi all! About the unmentionable. The last time that happened I took the opportunity to drive down to the south west. Boy, it was like the A-Bomb had dropped! No traffic for 130 miles!

    I suggest a drive round on that day and enjoy the countryside.

    Regarding silly names, my first car was bought of a girl called Carol........surname.......Christmas! What fun at school role call: Carol, Christmas?

    Will go off and read my fav posters over on Cif.



  172. Dear Mr Unmade,

    I must confess that I am bristling slightly at the implication of poor hygiene, but I console myself with the knowledge that older gentlemen may only be accustomed to bathing once a week or less.

    Still, I am nothing if not an understanding woman and if you prefer the bingo hall to the boudoir, that is your choice.

    It is only fair to warn you that the bingo hall that Mr. Thaumaturge frequents has the reputation of getting a little warm on a Thursday night, and that a stab vest is recommended attire. I do hope that you can comfortably fit one over your corset.

    Also I must mention that none of that Scottish muck passes this portal and it is Bushmills or nothing.

    Yours breezily,


  173. Look forward to seeing them meerkat

    My dogs are Mungo and the late and much missed Miss Diesel.

  174. Just read this over on CiF, and pondered over how many occupants of that thread this relates too ?

    From shalone:

    As Plato said: ""a wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something".

  175. Tascia - I suspect that applies to all of us some of the time, and some of us all of the time.

  176. Hevers et al

    the amount of disposable income is something not often discussed in terms of the real economy - and importantly in terms of personal fulfillment and expression.

    How we spend disposable income - assuming it exists - influences the economy - maufacturing/services and so jobs. We are encouraged through advertising and other coercive methods to spend it in certain ways.

    Acces to services , cultural and social activities is all too often restricted, we are all too often pesuaded that we desire rubbish - be it cultural or material.

  177. I have a horrible feeling that I am in the latter category Thauma.

    Unmademan that last comment was lovely, sorry you have to wear a corset. ;)

  178. Dear Selfmademan

    I am most concerned to discover that you find yourself exhausted from this mornings exertion. You poor dear thing. Might I suggest a nice long soak in a bubble bath to soothe the aches and pains away. Perhaps a little night music and some scented candles to salve the heart and mind as well as the body? For as the bard said: "If music be the food of love...."

    With kindest thoughts and very best wishes

    Miss Meerkat

  179. morning's.

    Damn, I just can't carry off snooty.

  180. "Look forward to seeing them meerkat

    My dogs are Mungo and the late and much missed Miss Diesel."

    Deano, my best beloved has just informed me that he couldn't possibly go and backpack through Africa, because he couldn't bear to be away from the dogs for that long...

    SMM is looking like a good option at the moment. And let's not forget, there's always Pennie and Bali....

  181. Jen - I'm with you - re: being in the latter category. But my mind strayed to just linking it with WTFyT blah blah regulars, at the time.

  182. WTFyT blah blah regulars

    See, that's inspired!

  183. I don't mind Thauma, I have no aspirations to wisdom, if I can have a laugh and make others smile occassionally then I am happy.

    I find that 'wise' people are generally a bit of a drag. ;)

  184. Jen - no, it those who *consider* themselves to be wise who are a right drag. And that is the problem with WTFyT blah blah regulars.

  185. Tascia

    As Plato said: ""a wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something".

    That's me buggered, then... :o)