06 November 2010


The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis.
-Dante Alighieri


  1. Thanks to Sheff for today's image.

    I rescued two comments from Moonwave from the spam folder. Apologies to him for not having caught them sooner. I'm really frustrated that so many of Moonwave's comments seem to get caught there & hope that Moonwave doesn't leave us in frustration.

    I shall copy and paste the comments below.

  2. moonwave said...

    La Rit
    waves back ~~~
    some days later…

    Sorry that at present I’m often not able to hang around long enough to respond too much (or not straightaway) – other things requiring attention also, and wandering out into the nights (away from computer access) - sort of dracula-like - into a confusion of alternative realities –
    this Wonderland sure ain’t Narnia
    although, as I said, just about anything makes more sense than ConLib-land…
    (although I could be going anywhere really – my family don’t check)
    – while I do read and assimulate everyone’s input.

    This post is a direct response to your comments (mixed up with others):

    part one
    In a way, you almost have to admire (while not admiring at all of course) the audacity of the current regime – campaign vigorously about how they’re going to stop the worse excesses of Labour – get into office and set about steadily increasing the worse excesses of Labour, and then tell everyone that this shows what good things they're doing for us, compared to the awful things Labour were doing and could be doing.

    Next, they’ll find that, after all we do need ID cards…

    And who were pushing for ID cards? – our beloved and trusted ATOS.

    In 1994 Atos Origin took over Schlumberger Sema, who had been lobbying hard for the introduction of ID cards, and had been selected by the Home Office to run a biometric passport control. Atos continued the good work :

    ” In a lengthy submission to the Home Office Atos Origin (formerly Scumberger Sema)argued that the “well understood sensitivity of the issue indicates the need to progress gradually rather than by “big bang”. Because of the history and tradition of the British people, we believe that arriving at a universal entitlement multi-application smart card may
    be an iterative process stretching over a number of years”. Atos Origin basically argued that the Government should introduce an ID Card-lite and then “migrate” to a full biometric card and detailed population database when the card is already in use. Atos Origin told the Government that “trying to move from where we are now to a sophisticated smart card
    solution without one of these interim steps would underestimate the business process and social attitude changes that would need to take place.” ”

    In 2009 IBM signed a £265 contract with the Idenitity and Passport Service to run the biometric database forming part of the National Identity Register – with parts of the deal sub-contracted to Atos Origin, providing integration and operations; and Sagern Securite, providing biometric services and software.

    "This contract will provide a secure database for storing facial and fingerprint images for the next generation of biometric passports and will support the delivery of the National Identity card," said James Hall, chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service.

    You’ll have noticed how the reason we needed (or will need) an ID card, or its equivalent, shifts like wind-blown sands, because whatever it is is just an excuse – the real driving force being the profit motives of those who have been developing the increasing ways of recording details about us, which then gets pushed, through whispered suggests into the ears of our ignorant government ‘representatives’ about how useful it would be to combat - say terrorists – it doesn’t matter what. Then when it’s pointed out that it wouldn’t stop terrorism at all, as they’d be bona fide ID-card carriers anyway, the story becomes immigrants - or anything else that might make the public swallow it as protecting them, when it’s going to do exactly the opposite.

    Or you could say that what we have is a lot of quacks pretending that they know how to decide our affairs, when all evidence shows the opposite to be the case.
    05 November, 2010 17:12

  3. Now that I am out of a country whose censors restrict access to both this site and CiFModerationwatch, I have updated the list of "Untrusteds" there who also like to play the censor from time to time.

    While I've been able to enjoy reading this site for the past few months, posting hasn't been possible. So over the coming days and weeks, providing your 'no moderation' policy continues I'll be here from time to time, just to record my side of the story.

    And yes anon and BeautifulBootstraps you did identify me correctly, although for once, neither you BB nor anyone else has yet resorted to telling tales to the moderators, as I've just made my latest CiF post on the thread following AllyF's recent article, where I also identify many of the CiF censors, including him.

  4. moonwave said...

    Okay – hobbits it is – and with fireworks too – have a good time

    part two
    (could someone rescue part one please)

    In Scotland, the government made a firm commitment not to support the UK National Idenity ID card, yet was at the same time issuing National Entitlement Cards to pensioners and schoolchildren :

    ” Caring nannies do not record every action of their charges, sharing private matters with all and sundry, or create files destined to haunt for life those whom they nurture....

    Scottish pensioners are tracked every time they swipe their concessionary bus passes. Summaries of medical records have been uploaded to centralised databases, to be accessed by distant doctors and nurses across the land. School children are routinely fingerprinted in library and dinner queues. Local authorities insist that young Scots must carry smart cards, only offering an opt-out if parents ask...

    The Registrar General for Scotland has new powers to compile lists of any personal information about anyone in Scotland (Local Electoral Administration and Registration Services Scotland Act), while the Scottish Government builds a population register ready for the Home Secretary to seize...

    …critics condemned ministers’ decision to hire Atos [to commission a report from them – the scheme's chief corporate cheerleaders]. Dr Geraint Bevan of campaign group NO2ID said: "The involvement of this company is astonishing and means that the review is hopelessly compromised.

    "Atos were entirely complicit in the design and creation of the UK National Identity Scheme.

    "Asking them to conduct an independent assessment is like asking a doubleglazing salesman to evaluate the windows of your house...

    He added: "We have a [Scottish] Government and a Parliament which have stated unequivocally on numerous occasions that they are opposed to ID cards.

    "Yet this insidious system will now come on-stream without a single serious question having been posed...

    …the pensioners' free bus pass - is already well on the way to becoming a sinister national identity card. The cards, also issued to children as Young Scot cards, are a privacy disaster.

    How have officials managed to design and implement such a surveillance system without parliamentary oversight? ... ”

    A Dundee example

    So, does it matter what uninteresting journeys we are taking, or what food we’re having in the canteen, or our shopping purchases, or what library books we’re taking out? Not into itself of course, but why is it necessary to record it individually at all?

    At the uni I attend (occasionally) everyone – staff and students - now has to have an entitlement card to use any facilities there – who was asked about this? – where did it come from? I don’t use their facilities – especially now on principle – so I didn’t put in for their card - as far as I’m concerned my student number is all I need – full stop.

    This isn't an objection to carrying a card and picture to show I have the right to be in parts of a premises (whatever) - it's an objection to having every harmless interaction fed back to some database.

    Some of it could be useful for everyday life - if it weren’t for the collecting of it all onto databases for who-knows-who to profile us, and for what state-control purposes that could be used in the future – where you can be excuded from entitlement to services by someone’s whim.

    After all, they can already remove your right to a welfare income at the press of a button, upon invented evidence.

    So what it comes down to is - how much do you trust your government and those it serves?
    05 November, 2010 18:21

  5. Leni, back in September you posted the following:

    "Bitey works - alone or for a company - recruiting students for I think British schools and colleges."

    "I did once ask him - here - to explain how this works as I am actually interested. I assume fees are payable by the parents. He didn't respond."

    My apologies for not responding to you in the first place and secondly for the delay, but having been in China for the past three months, I've only been able to view this site but not post. This must be due to an arrangement the proxy site I use to access blocked google blogs such as this has with the Chinese government's censors.

    So yes I am a partner in a business which assists Chinese and other students and their parents who want them to study in western schools, colleges and universities, to obtain a place and assist them in obtaining the necessary visa. In the partnership we have both fluent Mandarin and English, along with some Cantonese, Japanese, French and Spanish and experience in the education systems of China, the UK, Europe and Australasia. I have worked in and with over thirty schools, colleges and universities in the UK and Europe and one of the partners has been doing this work for over seven years, placing students in nine countries including the UK, the USA, Australia and NewZealand - the most popular choices.

    And no we don't charge parents, some of whom will be committing in excess of £250,000 on their child's education, but they demand to pay because we are so good. And some places with whom we place students pay us commission. But as it is not unusual for us to engage in negotiations with students and parents over the course of several years before we get sufficient trust to enable us to get a contract signed. Some of the students and parents become quite good friends and we adjust our charges accordingly. Some parents have worked incredibly hard and saved for many years to fund their child's education and it gives me a great deal of satisfaction being able to help them realise their dreams. So we have students for whom we have received less than the expenses we have had to incur and others from whom we receive what they consider our service to be worth. We have clients who have been defrauded of large sums of money by agents who claim to be able to do what we do, but after two years or more have achieved nothing except relieve their clients of large sums of money.

    I also proof read work our students produce if they want me to and to date I've done this for master's degree dissertations for students at universities in three countries.

  6. So what it comes down to is - how much do you trust your government and those it serves?

    Quack. Quack. Quack.

    I trust the government implicitly. I trust them to cock up everything as they have done for so many years. I trust them to cock up the cover up too and smile as the web fills with conspiracy theories.

    I trust those who it serves implicitly. I trust them to put their own selfish interests first as they have done for so many years. I trust them to cheat, bully and tell whopping great lies to influence people and smile at their frustration as the government cocks up their instructions.

    Quack. Quack.

  7. "I trust the government implicitly. I trust them to cock up everything as they have done for so many years. I trust them to cock up the cover up too and smile as the web fills with conspiracy theories.

    I trust those who it serves implicitly. I trust them to put their own selfish interests first as they have done for so many years. I trust them to cheat, bully and tell whopping great lies to influence people and smile at their frustration as the government cocks up their instructions."

    Wise words oh Hermit..stalwart defender of the Shire

    So tell me, why does such a fierce and instinctual cynic turn into such a supine acolyte and lapdog where other institutions are concerned?...for instance the Guardian...which despite a fullish endowment of corporate hypocrisy and self-interest, political opportunism, nepotism and internal contradiction...must never have its integrity questioned under any circumstances?

    How do you reconcile these two opinions...without looking like a complete flake? What is special about the Guardian Hermit?

  8. BiteTheHand

    If I knew you were comin I'd have baked a cake

  9. Habib:

    (from last night)

    Hope you're getting to enjoy a bit of Diwali (sorry, La Rit, it predates Guy Fawkes night by quite a bit)

    Sorry Habib, didn't mean that to sound as it did, love Diwali and love Eid as well..... I guess Diwali is as ancient and close to those Pagan celebrations for the Winter Solstice? My objection was that any mention of Guy Fawkes and referring it to Bonfire night was completely erased. In my musings, I thought, maybe this 'government' don't like to give people ideas about blowing up Parliament, even though he was rumbled :) s'all!

  10. I've just read waddaya...bored

    See kizbot's up to her old tricks...backing another three-legged donkey....defending the increasingly self-obsessed and indefensible Mr plethysmograph. I'm pretty sure he reads everything on here so no doubt he'll come across this and be provoked into a few gnomic grunts, book recommendations and duhs.

    I'm also aware of the modest and self-effacing image which he tries to cultivate...which is of course...erm..less than convincing...so I know he'll be thrilled when I use him as a reference point to demarcate all readers and contributors of CIF. As far as I can see, CIF can be divided into three groups...those who never read him, those who regard him as a largely benign authority on something or other (which they can't identify either) ...this group consists of less than a handful of impressionable idiots including the two usual suspects...and finally, the rest..those who see him for the massive egotist and conniving shit-stirrer that he really is..

    If you're reading this..I know you are...you might want to explain why such a master of the art of communication, so keenly aware of its potential pitfalls...you manage to portray yourself as a self-loving, sniping little gobshite who always ducks out at the sign of any trouble? Serious question.

    Just don't go into some fuckin self-conscious ramble about how others can't hope to interpret your brilliance...that doesn't actually wash...well not unless we're talking two or three gullible waddaya 'faces' or little children

  11. Monkey:

    See kizbot's up to her old tricks...backing another three-legged donkey....defending the increasingly self-obsessed and indefensible Mr plethysmograph

    Having been on the receiving end of Mr P's vicious barbs about a year ago, never trusted the fucker since.... I think he was proselytising on some subject or other and I called him a 'wanker' - needless to say, he couldn't take it but boy, did he dish it out....

  12. Is Pens' little act supposed to be self effacing?

    If so, it fails badly, he comes across as relentlessly superior about everything.

    I know he has his problems, and from what people said last time he was committed they seem to be genuine, but waddya know the mentally ill can be tossers too.

  13. .....And no we don't charge parents, some of whom will be committing in excess of £250,000 on their child's education, but they demand to pay because we are so good.......

    So basically assisting ultra privileged little rich kids to get access to a top education anywhere in the world.... reminds me of those who look after the schooling interests of the new, uber rich thieving Russians to gain entry into the secret and elite world of the upper classes here. Hmmmmm

  14. I missed that little gem La Rit, they demand to pay do they?

    Give us a break hun, there isn't a business on the planet that relies on the satisfied customer demanding to pay, you are either lying or fudging the issue so badly that it is so close to lying that it makes no difference.

    You don't do what you do out of the goodness of your heart so stop it with the claims of charity.

  15. Jen;

    I know, I had to laugh! It all seems so..... bizarre!

  16. Morning all. Back from Ireland, with a morning after song.

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

  18. "Jess, how about an article from a non-established young journalist on the effects of cuts to the overseas aid budget?"

    Don't worry..I'm onto it..we've got just the guy..should fit right in around the office

  19. I see Andy Coulson is being questioned by the police.

    Didn't the NotW defend waterboarding when he was editor?

    Just a thought.

  20. morning all

    Well - we seem to be attracting arch enemies at a rate of knots. bitey and englishhermit - what joy!

    Off to re-group, get a paper and see what's happening in the world.


    I take it Ireland was a bit strenuous.


  21. Boudican-(yesterday) on the road to Vancouver to see BB King. Looking forward to it.

    I'm sooooooooooooooo envious!

    report please!

  22. Morning all

    Another thought-provoking post from moonwave. I had no idea Atos used to be Schlumberger. My beloved did consultancy work for them a few years ago, although nothing to do with this current shenanigans.

    Lovely soft autumn morning here. Gardening beckons but the grass is too wet to cut so I might just leave it as "overgrown yard" until the spring now.

    Surprised there isn't more wailing and gnashing of teeth about the RBS debacle. According to a post on Waddya, they have declared a loss of 1.4 billion after having paid themselves bonuses of - you guessed it - 1.4 billion.

    The concept of gaining bonuses from profits you make from money belonging to the tax-payer is sufficiently repugnant on its own. But when you are paying yourself bonuses having lost the taxpayers' money...

    And as long as there's X-Factor on the telly and Stella in the fridge, nobody bats a bloody eyelid...

  23. Spike

    "I see Andy Coulson is being questioned by the police.

    Didn't the NotW defend waterboarding when he was editor?

    Just a thought. "

    Made I larf! :o)

  24. Hi BB, how's it going?

    I'm just off to the hypermarket and the DIY store to buy a lock core. My life is such an exciting, mad whirl...

  25. look guys, you're all just virtual representations of self (duh). Read Mead - Mind and Self. I researched all that. I taught all the top people everywhere in everything. I'm giving my wisdom here for free - nobody listens *sigh* My students all loved me. Off now - gotta go shopping. love to all xxx
    (espec love to kiz and bru (duh) cos they're so thick that they to pretend to understand me- I love them but they should read some books, ha ha)
    And helping people makes me feel good, hey ho, but it's not about me at all (duh). Read some social psychology you morons (ha ha) don't mean that! I love all you game-players (snigger) - I did research on that - see Pen, Smug, Superior, Idiot et al 1985 - you won't understand it (duh) but that doesn't matter!

  26. notreallypen

    whatevs ;) :( \O/ /o\

  27. Read some social psychology, hilarious (snigger).

  28. This is fucking splendid


  29. One for Montana


    Hope yr boy's doing better.

  30. Hilarious notreally !
    See also, Shuttup, Patronising, and Cunt, 2010.

  31. That little birdie in the picture is about to do a reverse karate kick and knock the snake's teeth out.

    Well, there's always hope.

    BW, your first link was, indeed, fucking splendid.

  32. heyhabib
    Just been on their youtube page lobbying them to release it. Great ain't it ?

  33. pen

    worry not amigo

    it's all soc rep ((Did research on it, hey ho. nonny nonny *swoon*)

    A bunch of vicious thugs can't destroy a rep like yours (like you care? duh..whatevs;))

    You get straight back on waddaya and show the world who's got the answers (if you tell them they will listen..if you build it, they will come-the birds in the trees all love me..and feed from my hand..the beasts of the field will be yours to command)

    hi kiz. you're right I have my cross to bear (*sneeze*) Forgive them bru (they know not what they do..they should read Cuthbert,Dibble, Grub et al Manifestations of Social Degradation 1976

    It's all ontology (sheesh...I've done the correlation coefficients (duh))

    There's only psych and phys (it's not rocket science guys)

    One day every physicist will prostrate themselves before my throne and exclaim "Pen..you we're right..we're just trapped in a dead end and blinkered culturally specific narrative)

    Don't worry guys, I'll say...it's not you...it's your lack of psychological training...read Bindelboam, Utursky and the Three Stooges: Pen, Book and Candle: Transgressing Scientific Orthodoxy in a Dugout Canoe 2003.

    Right byeee...off to the shops...but I've got a job..honest

  34. wildduck

    someone said something to upset you?...you could always try telling us what it is...oh yeah..you tried that..what was it again?

    "Sob..they called me stupid and boring and a crypto-fascist...but I'm not boring"

  35. monkeyfish,

    just read that article from the 20 something representing the vast sections of the young excluded.

    He has his own website and on his puff:

    Mic also advises PR companies on how to get the best from journalists.


    Previous staff positions have included Pensions World, Stuff and Q Magazine. Mic has also written for publications including The Times, Sunday Times, Evening Standard, Wired and The Guardian.

    And guess what?

    he graduated from Cambridge in 2005!

  36. My mistake, English Hermit, nobody here can supply the level of help you need.

  37. Jesus, I hope he doesn't have a gun licence. Or a patio.

  38. habib

    i think he has an allotment. Makes me think of that poem 'A pot of Basil'

  39. This comment has been removed by the author.

  40. Duke

    Where the fuck would the authentic voice of the proletariat find an outlet if it weren't for the Guardian?

    although since he's worked for "Pensions World, Stuff and Q Magazine....publications including The Times, Sunday Times, Evening Standard, Wired and The Guardian."

    what exactly has he been excluded from?..fuckin Grazia?...Pigeon Fanciers' weekly?

    besides his writing is overblown unfocussed hyperbole...my Irish/German girlfriend: "I think property is so important to Irish people because, historically, we weren't allowed to own our own land for such a long time. We were tenant farmers dependent on landlords"

    You couldn't fuckin make it up...Cambridge graduate/ media luvvie par excellence..and yet his life is still haunted by the inhumanity of British Colonialism...

    The subtext of the whole thing is: "Why hasn't someone as fuckin brilliant as me got a house?"

    and I'd have to suggest as an answer: "because you write like a clueless, self-obsessed prick."

  41. No accounting for the madness of others, habib.

  42. Your Grace/MF

    I have kept away from that thread. It would only annoy me.

    I said a while ago, can't remember the context, but that was one of the big tricks of Thatcher when she gave council-house owners the right to buy. It was all part of the big re-engineering of the social structures she despised. If someone owns their own house and can be kicked out of it for not paying their mortgage, compared to an assured tenancy off the council, they will think twice about going on strike, won't they?

  43. "My mistake, English Hermit, nobody here can supply the level of help you need."

    Maybe notreallypen could suggest a few self-help books

    I'm a big fan of "Chill your beans Hipster: keeping your inner-Shire orc-free" by the Cheese-flan Tornado Publishing Collective 2003

  44. XIV.
    With her two brothers this fair lady dwelt,
    Enriched from ancestral merchandize,
    And for them many a weary hand did swelt
    In torched mines and noisy factories,
    And many once proud-quiver'd loins did melt
    In blood from stinging whip;--with hollow eyes
    Many all day in dazzling river stood,
    To take the rich-ored driftings of the flood.

    For them the Ceylon diver held his breath,
    And went all naked to the hungry shark;
    For them his ears gush'd blood; for them in death
    The seal on the cold ice with piteous bark
    Lay full of darts; for them alone did seethe
    A thousand men in troubles wide and dark:
    Half-ignorant, they turn'd an easy wheel,
    That set sharp racks at work, to pinch and peel.

    Why were they proud? Because their marble founts
    Gush'd with more pride than do a wretch's tears?--
    Why were they proud? Because fair orange-mounts
    Were of more soft ascent than lazar stairs?--
    Why were they proud? Because red-lin'd accounts
    Were richer than the songs of Grecian years?--
    Why were they proud? again we ask aloud,
    Why in the name of Glory were they proud?


  45. wildduck

    How does it feel...getting 'worked' like a puppet?
    You make sure you s.tick around Muppetina..I could do with a new bitch


  46. again..who told you to stop?...and keep going til I get back...and take that fuckin stupid hat off

  47. Afternoon all

    Phil Woolas has got his just deserts but were his 'dirty tactics' really that much different from those employed by many other politicians fighting in marginal constituencies? And would the introduction of PR at least go some way in eliminating such behavior?


    Enjoy your concert.Am really envious !

    English Hermit

    You need help mate!

    @Spurs is currently 1-0 down at Bolton.Am not happy!

  48. monkeyfish, I'm happy to help (duh) we are all just reflections of others' perceptions of the self in a transliterated mind (Burke & Hare 1923)

    englishduck (hermit?) whatevs, *sigh*. Anatidaen sociopsych is fractal anyway, duh - see Sears, Roebuck, Marks, Spencer et al 1943) The quack should read 'An Ontological Investigtaion of the Binomial Divergence of Consciousness in Pipeweed in the South Farthing' by Baggins,Gamwise, Brandybuck and Took (pub Shire Reckoning 2419)

    but nobody listens to me, ha ha, why should they? I give myself freely, nobody cares duh, whatevs, sigh. I don't get paid for my superiority, I have to go shopping and they want money. have they not read any books? whatevs. love to all xxx espec BB who is a hypocrite who owns two houses, ha ha, just kidding.

  49. Paul

    Nowt will help until we get a different type running for political office. Honesty would be a start.

  50. @Paul

    Take deep breaths. Watch your blood pressure.

  51. @Paul


    Mind you, I can talk about blood pressure... Mine goes through the roof when I listen to that raasclaat Alan Green.

  52. pensions world? errrr?

    paul - feeling your pain.
    (am going to stop betting on spurs)

  53. Shit. Hargreaves injured in under five minutes. Poor sod.

  54. notreallypen

    You are a saint (*sigh* hi 5 whatevs)

    I know that others may mock you (*suck teeth*..*roll eyes*.. t'was ever thus)

    They don't understand that your continuous subtle little digs are a wake-up call...an invitation to the higher plane where mere representation melts away and the interpersonal dynamic is exposed; red in tooth and green in ink..

    duh..whatevs..you don't seek their approval ;)

    you have made a difference and reached those who have needed you

    As Snoop said in his 1997 interview with Rolling Stone "'FOre i WAS Read'n the Penis Doctor//I was just a dumb-ass PUNK sellin dope..he pulled the wool from my EYES"

    In fact, I believe the track "Fo shizzle Dr Pizzle" from the album "Doggy Psych Social RepJam" was an acknowledgement of your influence

    And I recently heard a rumour that Call me Dave's 'Big Society' was first muted at a weekend Tory focus group convened after George Osborne finished your book "Sheesh, I'm going to the Shops..Can't we get along folks?..we're all in this together" Bullshit University Press 2002.

    People just don't understand you notreally. Maybe you should ask kiz or bru to go ATL and explain your ideas in the vulgate(snigger). Those two surely understand your intentions (snigger guffaw!!)

  55. notreally + MF

    Now I understand Pen's remarks on wddya - perhaps. I skimmed thru earlier and missed your converstion.

    Actually some of us do understand Pen. He is often elliptical and perhaps assumes too often that the majority understand his references.
    Many specialists make this mistake - and so appear to talking gobbledegook to most of us.

    A physicist may talk about what was there before the Big Bang - giving refs. to learned papers - I can only understand it as perhaps there was pure energy which in some way produced matter. A poor understanding I/m sure.

    I am retiring from a fray in which I have no part.

    Take care everyone.

    jeni - the invite for next summer still stand and Turm - hope all is well.

  56. "Anyhow, I see no reason why I should accept being hounded by the witless, it is not as though the state of the world is my fault is it? I would have thought there were far more worthy targets for all you class warriors."

    Here's the thing plethysmograph: "if you can't take it; don't try and dish it out"

    ..seems communication's not as impossible as you seem to think; is it now?

    I'm quite happy to ignore you..perfectly happy...I've regarded you as a self-obsessed waste of space for some time now and if it weren't for the unintentional comedic qualities of your posts, I'd happily pass you by

    but as you say: "I see no reason why I should accept being hounded by the witless"...up to you DrP...but if you keep it up..stop the crying and desperate pleas for support and sympathy when it comes back to haunt you...you're losing credibility fast...seems I'm not the only little boy shouting at the naked emperor any more.

    Oh btw...loved this bit..

    "Fascist..n def: Anybody who fails to recognise plethysmograph as a fuckin genius"

    Dry up and get over yourself

  57. leni

    Don't leave, we really need you. x

  58. Bewildered by all of you, really.


    You claim you never go after anyone just because you don't like them -- you don't attack until they've attacked you first. When did Pen attack you?


    Pen insults other people on a regular basis -- he can barely write a comment without pretty much calling anyone who doesn't appreciate his genius an idiot. He's not really much of a victim. No one can make you keep posting here, but it seems a shame for you to walk away because of Pen.

  59. @Leni

    Come on, surely you can stay without getting involved in certain stuff. I'd be very sorry to see you go.

  60. Rare for me to post on Waddya.........

    6 November 2010 5:29PM

    Leni you post on Montana's site, don't you read what others post?

    It was meant to be a place of liberty but has become a cesspool of bile........

    What arrogant twaddle.

    Leni I too hold you in high regard but if you accept that utter nonsense then plainly my judgement is flawed and yours is questionable wise lady.

    I read Montana's site most days (95%+) and have done so for about 18 months I also post there quite frequently. In my view UT is no more a cesspool bile than is this place.

    Pen your obscure esoteric views are sometimes lacking in good sense and wisdom. To tar 'many' at UT with the brush of you idle displeasure is, at the kindest, indicative of slack thinking."

    Leni I have a genuine regard and a lot of respect for you............but on this occasion I fear you may be mistaken.

  61. "When did Pen attack you?"

    Is this a serious question? The fact that someone tries to couch their contempt in ambiguous and disingenuous language doesn't really matter to me. Take a look back at his 'work'.

    I'm totally unimpressed by his entire persona...he wants to play at being simultaneously above, involved in but ultimately unaffected by what is said...as a consequence of his superior awareness of the acualite...which is erm..cool..I suppose...but when he continually throws out snide comments and gets as upset as he clearly was by my posts then, fuck the persona..he reveals himself every bit as stuck on terra firma as the rest of us.

    So..if he wants to avoid similar upset in future, then, where I'm concerned, he can wind his fuckin neck in

  62. Hmmm thought i'd drop into the cesspit to see what's up as coversation here is mainly about the scouts and Miss Marple...kids today! Am waiting for them to rebel but no signs yet.

  63. Monkeyfish:

    I don't actually disagree with anything you've said about Pen. I'm merely asking when he attacked you, specifically, to justify your rant today. Because, as I said above, in the past you have claimed that you don't attack until you've been attacked.

    Yes, it's a genuine question, because I must have missed it somewhere. I don't recall ever seeing him throwing insults your way. If he did, fair enough. But if he didn't, you might want to drop the "I don't attack until I'm attacked" defence.

  64. Can anyone direct me to this "Cesspool of Bile" that "wadyaites" keep referring to?

    The only time this site ressembles a cesspit is when they come over here to have shit and leave a nasty smell.

  65. Have been looking for it myself chekhov - but so far no luck.

  66. @chekhov:

    Even if this place was a Cesspool of Bile (anyone else seeing our next tagline?), the only way they would know about it is that they continue to read it every day. If the place offends them so much, why do they keep reading? If they're so far above the feuding, why do some of them deliberately say nasty things about the UT?

    If they stopped reading the UT, they'd never have anything to bitch about on Waddya. Hypocritical arsewipes.

    (Note: only talking about @ 3-4 people over there. They know who they are.)

  67. Actually, in the interest of fairness, it should be said that the UT regulars who despise Waddya so much really should just stop reading it, too.

  68. Can I just say that I like posting here and I like posting on CiF and I like posting on Waddya and well said Montana.

    If that makes me some kind of sellout or liberal something or other, so be it.

    There are good people here who never post over there and there are good people over there who never post here.

  69. @Montana: I don't despise "Wadya" or the people who comment there.

    What hacked me off was the arbitrary moderation.

    I joined "wadya" right from the outset and watched with increasing disappointment as the mods slowly weeded out anyone who wasn't toeing the Guardian line.

    The thing is, with a moderated site, there will inevitably be a shifting of the goal posts, whereas on here there aren't any goal posts!

    That is not to say we don't come with our personal goal posts but if we do it's relatively easy to spot if we try to shift them.

  70. Haven't had a look at Waddya in 24 hours or so, but it seems something has been going on.

    Regarding Pen, he can sometimes irritate me but I don't think he's entirely well and therefore not a fair target.

  71. Evening, peeps, just a quick observation fwiw. The people who consistently and repeatedly denigrate and attack UT on waddya are all people who have posted here and have had their arses kicked because they are morons.

    pen, kizbot, brusselsexpats, englishhermit, napoleonkaramazov, fencewalker, bitethehand, etc etc etc

    I think this says something about this site and its values. For all its faults, it has a commitment to 'truth' and freedom of speech and even when its tedious it is more interesting than Cif.

    So, well done montana and everybody else for keeping on keeping on.


  72. Nicely said Scherfig.

    Leni, if you are going to leave (I really really hope you don't) then is it ok for me to get your email from Montana?

    I will miss you, a lot. x

  73. I think we should challenge "wadya" to a philosopical cricket match.

    We could put Monkeyfish and Hank in to open the batting, have Leni padded up to go in as nightwatchman whilst we all get pissed and get ready to declare at around 500 runs.

    Paul and Heyhabib could open the bowling with Thauma and La Rit lobbing in a few leg breaks and googlies.

    Deano could come up with the slow ball and with me and Sheff and Mschin in the slip cordon we could have them all out before reaching the follow on.
    Princess takes the winning catch at silly mid off when EnglishHermit has a slash round his off stump from a well disguised in swinging yorker from Turminder.

    Apologies for anyone missed out;

    We still need good fielders;

    So: Bitterweed: wicket keeper.

    Boudican: square leg.

    Jennifera30: extra cover.

    Annetan42: third man.

    PeterJ: silly mid on.

    Spike: gully.

    Phillipa: fourth slip or in the box with the 13th Duke doing the commentary (your choice).

    Montana: I have no idea what you know about the game of cricket but you are more than welcome to join in even if it is just to comment on how some of us are obsessed with the notion that Test Match cricket is the meaning of life!

  74. Chekhov, I am an excellent wicket keeper, you are missing a trick there.

  75. Chekhov

    I always liked to be a deep fielder when I was at school. That way I got to skive and smoke fags behind trees...

  76. Here's a song for the global recession. I wonder how many of the yuppies in the audience are unemployed now? Still, great song - Pete Seeger.

    lay me my money down

  77. Chekhov - I didn't actually understand a word of that, but it sounded very good. Think I'm more of a winger or full-back - could possibly play in the centre - but the scrum is beyond me.

    NN All.

  78. Ok; Jennifera: the wicket keepers job is yours!
    Not sure how Bitterweed will respond to being lobbed onto the boundary with Beautiful Burnout but if they want to smoke fags behind trees together then good luck to them!

  79. Montana: I don't despise "Wadya" or the people who comment there.

    Oh, no. I didn't think you do.

    As for what I know about cricket, well...

    I could name a few (long retired) cricketers andthrow out a few terms, but I beyond the fact that the wicket is the wooden thingummy that the batsman tries to prevent the bowler from knocking the stumps off (the stumps are the bits that sit on top, aren't they?) and that the batsman runs as many times as he can between the wickets after he's hit a ball (I'm guessing that there are only certain times when he can do this -- what would be referred to in baseball as the ball being "in play").

    That and they used to wear lovely jumpers pretty much sums it up.

  80. Leni

    I hope you don't leave.Forget about what happened earlier as Pen should never have used waddya to attack you and make snide comments about 'the company you keep'.He's a grown man FFS and you're not his mother.And it's not your job to fight his battles whether it be here or over there.Anyways if i don't see you here i'll chase you up on Cif and we can have a chat there.You know how persistant i can be :-)

    In the meantime here's a song from JONI just for you x


    I hate cricket.Can't we have a philosophical game of murder ball with waddya instead?

  81. For anyone who doesn't know murder ball is a legit game-or certainly was when i was at school.

  82. Checkhov - brilliant posts! We need some sanity. But I'd be useless at third man (or tbh anywhere as a fielder!) - can't throw straight and my instinct when I see any object flying towards me is to ahem (dare I say it) duck (LOL!). Therefore I am hopeless at catching!

    Nice to be picked for a team though! Never happened at school :(

  83. Montana,that pretty much sums it up.

    If you can catch and throw then you will be good at cricket.

    My dad (who had five daughters, much to his disappointment) took us to watch the cricket (and football) as often as he could.

    He drilled us at catching every weekend, I can honestly catch wides in my sleep.

  84. And here's the man himself (Seeger) singing a Woody Guthrie song. How times have changed in 35/75 years. Would Arlo Guthrie and Studs Terkel even recognize today's USA?

    this land is our land

  85. Oh and in case you are thinking of starting up a team Chekhov I am a fantastic darts player. ;)

    Play round the clock doubles every night and you can be a darts wizard too.

  86. "Checkhov - brilliant posts!"

    One begins to see the attraction. The Undusted, where everyone is a comic genius.

    "Read some social psychology, hilarious (snigger)."

    And where everyone finally gets to make cheerleader.

  87. Nice to see you Luke, have you nothing better to do on a Saturday night than troll a site you dislike?

    No, then I guess that makes you as big a loser as me, pull up a chair love.

  88. @Montana: I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree about the difference between Baseball and Cricket. Let's just leave it that we have have two different attitudes from either side of "the pond" neither of which is right or wrong.

  89. Thought trolling a site you dislike pushed your buttons darlin'(snigger!).

    Monkeyfish! Monkeyfish!Rah! Rah! Rah!

  90. @chekhov

    I used to spend entire days (or at least it seemed like it) stuck out on the boundary staring at the long grass in a state of soul-shrivelling boredom.

    On the other hand, I'm not bad at darts at all, so I could team up with Jenn. Pool's fine too.

    And if there's a game of Trivs, I'm your main man.


    For once, amazingly, I'll be behind the Scousers tomorrow. Only when they play Chelski. ;-)

  91. luke

    What? Why?

    Really, what the hell are you talking about?

  92. Spike

    I am great at Triv too, we could be a match made in heaven. ;)

  93. "You claim you never go after anyone just because you don't like them -- you don't attack until they've attacked you first. When did Pen attack you?"

    He knows what I'm talking about..exactly what I'm talking about...and if you really want me to go through possible interpretations of non-specific sleights, I will..but he goes out of his way to keep everything deniable and I'm fucked if I'm gonna play that game

    but just as an aside

    What is the correct response to an assertion which ends in 'duh'?

    ...and look back and follow the implications of his supposed heightened powers of cognition...and just what base levels of ignorance he's ascribing to...the rest of mankind...but especially when it's an oblique reference to yours truly

    Way I see it I've done him a favour..if I'm mistaken and he really is a well-intentioned guy trying to heal the world, then at least now he knows his posts came over as arrogant and rebarbative

    if, alternatively...and the scenario I'd bet the house, the shirt on my back and the kids' Christmas presents on...he's just a full-time wind-up merchant working playing the post-modern incarnation of "it's a category error"; ie. "it's a social construction", then, bollocks...it's been done..and done much better.

    At least he's dropped the aloofness and the condescension now...almost sounds like a victim...bit by bit...waddaya grows in self-awareness..what greater gift could I bestow?

  94. Luke

    You made the list. (whatevs (snigger)*sigh*)

  95. Manners monkeymagic! You forgot to tell chekov how brilliant his cricket riff was. And howsabout a wink fer jen?


  96. It's Jennifera30 to you fuckwit.

    I love a good troll but sadly luke isn't a good troll.


  97. "Manners monkeymagic"

    and break the habit of a lifetime?...you really wanna go down that route and come on here demanding some standards and civility..that approach has a history which is chequered, to put it mildly...and, if current theories are to credited..leaves the would-be 'missionaries' abused and traumatised...I'd just leave me to my self-imposed ignorance and animism.

    but...as it happens I know less about cricket than your average Laplander so I'm not sure what the upshot of that one was

    Hi Jen

    happy now Luke? (like I care? (duh))

    btw..I thought I was getting a pastiche last time we spoke...has the offer been withdrawn in consequence of my bad behaviour?...quite right...someone needs to teach me a lesson *sheesh*

  98. fuckwit

    bad troll


    That's brilliant!

    What does the 30 stand for?

  99. Ah you are picking on me, how sweet.

    The 30 is non of your fecking business.

  100. Didn't happen like that monkey. You said you'd be flattered if I did and said I might. Couldnt though cos you really are good. Seems a pity to waste it by trashing the young the feeble and the troubled - or maybe you arent wasting it. If you're doing anything else post a link. Maybe there's something on one of the undusted sister sites?

  101. Leni:

    I'm with Monatana and Scherfig on this one re: Pen.

    But it would be a real shame if you stopped posting here because of conflicting views about the man.

    Personally, the one and only time I'd ever interacted with him was when I came across one of his posts on CiF which I challenged in passing (can't remember what it was about, it was so bloody long ago) but I do remember he came back at me with a river of absolute bile. So I called him a 'wanker' and made a joke about his moniker but that just earned me more bile. Mentally ill or not, he's not stupid and I've had enough experience of close family and friends with a variety of conditions and suffered myself, so it's not as if I don't have insight. But, why should his mental health be a reason to treat him with kid gloves when he appears to use it as reason to kick off at people? Why should it give him license to treat others like shit?

    I'm no stranger to vitriol (no shit Sherlock I hear you cry!) but I've learned that sometimes, I need to swallow my pride, back off and admit I've been nasty and apologise (I did it twice the other day).... on waddaya, there seems to be very few of the usual suspects who are unwilling to do this or recognise that they're nasty bullies at times.

    For some people, CiF seems to be a vacuous popularity contest, for me, I just post because it's habit. I've been doing it for over 4 years because I like doing it .... if I wanted to be 'popular' I'd tone it down, suck up and compromise, not lose my rag and get slapped onto the naughty step by the Mods. Thing is, I don't court popularity because I'm not looking for an anonymous audience of sychophants to hang on my every word, if people like what I say, fine, if they don't, that's fine too.

    From what I can gather from my (very infrequent) visits to waddaya..... it looks to me like a bunch of people wanting exactly that and driving themselves around the bend in the process....

    I've really no feelings one way or the other about Pen, what he has to say really doesn't interest me in a way it does others, but the world is not going to stop turning because of that and tbh - there's plenty of people on CiF who I respect and admire, he's just not one of them.

  102. Not picking on ya babe. Just a tad disappointed to see you sniggering on the sidelines while the bullies do their thing.

    Take care x

  103. Watching V for Vendetta - Old Bailey just gone up and lots of bad guys getting theirs...pity it's just a film.

  104. Great post La Rit (take that Luke) I hate the idea that you can't have a go at Pen because he has mental illness problems.

    I have mental illness issues but can still be a shit.

    I will never be as insulting as Pen though.

  105. luke

    How fucking dare you!

    I am not sniggering on the sidelines at anyone.

    If you have a genuine complaint about how I have acted, then out with it.

  106. "Bullies"
    Who ? When ? Where ? Links ? Direct quotes with context ? no ?

  107. Complicit in "bullying". Egging on of "bullies". Cheerleading "bullies".

    Is that it "Luke" ? This site is just about... bullies ?

    And get off the fence man - either monkeyfish is "really good" or a bastard. Which is it ?

  108. Haven't been following Pens posts on waddya or anywhere else so don't have a clue whats going on...

    Who is this new twat/troll luke?

  109. BW, maybe he is a really good bastard (it takes hard work to be a great bastard).

    How was the gig?

  110. nah, that's tomorrow Jen.

    Sheff - he pops in every now and then, has a natter about how poorly people conduct themselves, then goes and posts "pastiches" on his ifitsasix blog. I can never work out if he likes people here or hates them - seems to just want to mock them out of an apparent disdain and ethical superiority - see his accusations of bullying above, but then he often ends up pallying up with them. Like he's "testing" them. Like kids sometimes do. Odd. But then the world isn't short of whack-jobs right now is it ?

  111. For reference, he's here:


    Quite good, some of it too !

    Just bored I guess luke ?

  112. That's what gets me BW he could fit in so easily here, his blog really isn't half bad, but he wanders in here every now and again with his guns on fire.

    What have we ever done to him. :(

  113. Been a target ? Heh. I see Duck Rogers is back.

  114. Evening all

    Hear this great rack earlier from James Brown

  115. I'm orf. See youse around, going to be a busy few days.

  116. @chekhov:

    No -- I wasn't disagreeing with you about cricket/baseball. I just didn't know if the term 'in play' was used in cricket.


    You're no less a bully than anyone else here and you're a damn sight bigger dickhead, so do drop the sanctimony. You don't have any right to it.

  117. Have a great gig tomorrow Bitters - don't think I'll be able to make it after all which means I'm going to miss a brilliant night, bugger it!

  118. Nicely said Montana, I really like the idea of someone upset by bullying coming onto a site and bullying (by his measures, not mine) people about it.

    Stop bullying or I will do you in, nice work luke.

  119. No worries Sheff - next time praps - maybe in sheff ???

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  121. You're right BW, I will let it go. x

  122. Fuckin hell ..read that back..and changed my mind...re-sanitised...

    "Seems a pity to waste it by trashing the young the feeble and the troubled - or maybe you arent wasting it."

    so maybe anyone should be able to go online..claim a particularly delicate disposition.. and then get a fee-pass to insult all and sundry and take intellectual imposture to undreamed of heights?...not sure that's an arrangement I'm too keen on

    Did I ever tell you I had a condition which means that if anyone ever disputes anything I say I'm liable to set off a dirty bomb in the middle of Manchester?

    'wasting' what?...don't tell me you're another one (I was once) who still sees the internet as a potential vehicle of change..rather than a porn distribution hub; moonlighting...more disturbingly as a substitute for social intercourse...I still think it can be one day...but not until its troubled adolescent phase is done with..and always assuming...and I'm not exactly an optimist in this area...it isn't regulated into a la-la Panglossian Stepford suburb of manufactured consent

    Luke...look again...and bear in mind that X Factor, football, Newsnight and the odd nature show-if it's got sharks, big carnivores or termites- apart, I can't 'do' television...this gives me the chance to be in a sit-com and write my own script...best thing is..everyone else is writing their own script too...and not only have we dispensed with writers...I can change scene or location at will

    one minute I'm Dirty Den..then I get bored and I'm Wyatt Earp cleaning up Dodge City...then I'm Mr Spock telling the world it doesn't compute...whatevs...I'm still not taking any shit from pretentious smartarses who claim dissent in any form is so much show-boating and the real answer lies somewhere on view to the sufficiently enlightened if they'd only listen and believe..

    that way lies religion...and submission

    Thing is Luke...if this were the real world..and let's own up..thisisn't the real world...you'd be an extra and wouldn't get within spitting distance of my Winnebago...I have little doubt you'd have one of your own if you took the trouble..but that would mean a lot more posting..the odd fuck-up, misunderstanding and accusation of 'fascist sympathies' along the way...kinda 'payin your dues'...slidin in as unknown and pure and pristine has a sell-by date...remember that.

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  124. Somewhere between Bitterweed and Freddy Huppert was a hello to everyone else.Fuck knows what happened to it.

  125. Hubbard even.I,m 'tired and emotional',Spurs lost and i'm on me own tonight.

  126. Cheers Paul !

    "slidin in as unknown and pure and pristine has a sell-by date"

    Good words. But then I'm just a cheerleadin' whore for the dusty coalition... or something.

  127. Paul
    Yeh - what happened ? Missed match of the day. thought you boys were on a roll what with the Bale boy hitting all the targets the pther night ??

  128. I,ve fuckin' gone and deleted the bastard as well as mis-spelling his name .

    Take 2

    Freddie Hubbard and Al Jarreau

  129. Right
    I really should go.

    Remember: Luke. Evidence. Full context. Quotes. In context. Not just twenty words of glib accusation and self-agrandising smartypants bullshit - that often looks exactly like trolling. Ok.

  130. Argh what is wrong with the world, I've just watched Have I Got News For You and James Blunt came across as a really nice and funny man.

    Nothing means anything any more.

  131. "Nothing means anything any more."

    Points still mean prizes..or a Brucey bonus if you get lucky

  132. @Sorry Bitterweed - i said good luck with the gig earlier and deleted it along with the link.

    Spurs seem to be playing even more erratically than usual since the rumour went round that Harry had his eye on the England job.Am a bit too pissed to make more sense at the moment.

    @Hi Sheff,Jen,Montana

    @Luke-you're a Stevie Wonder fan so you can't be all bad.You were disrespectful earlier to Jen and she didn't deserve that.You can actually write well when you want too so i don't understand why you're going out of your way to pick fights with people here.Take it easy yeah!

  133. You get nothing at all for two in a bed.

    Ahh bullseye I miss you.

  134. @Hi Monkeyfish

    You're on fire at the moment mate:-)

  135. Paul

    possibly..but smoke gets in your eyes

  136. LaRitournelle / jennifera30

    You think that parents in China don't want the same for their children that parents elsewhere want for theirs?

    Or do you think that Chinese children should by definition accept that they should continue to live in a one party, male chauvinist state, because that's the fate that befell their parents?

    I doubt it very much.

    You might start by looking at your own lives and the complaints about them you record here, before trashing other peoples desires to get something better for their own children.

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  138. "Cesspool of Bile"

    Got a kind of thrash-metal goth thing to it. Neat.

  139. @Jen:

    Yeah -- I watched the Thursday version on YouTube earlier this evening. He was actually the funniest one on this epidode. I'm happy to report that I'm unfamiliar with his music and he isn't well known here.

  140. Bitethehand, I am not questioning the motives of Chinese parents, I am questioning yours.

    You are in it to make money, and that is all.

    Gibber on about fairness all you like but you are a wage slave, same as everyone else.

    You might be doing good things but you are doing them for money.

    Bog off with your holier than thou attitude.

  141. Paul, that song always makes me grin. Hope your cold shower moment doesn't last too long, bruv.

  142. habib

    Played Shabba whilst forgetting what a total sleazeball he is.So i'll make me point again with
    Mr Big Stuff

    (cold shower still sadly applicable)

  143. Shabba's a sleazeball? I didn't know, sorry. Is Chaka Demus okay?

  144. @Habib

    I like the track 'Mr Loverman' but Shabba is pretty homophobic.On TV once he called for gays to be 'crucified'.Homophobia is a big problem in Jamaica.Beeny Man is another one who'd like all gay men to be killed.Gay women in Jamaica get gang raped so as to make them 'normal'.It's sick!


    I thought you only had eyes for Terry Hall.You women are so fickle :-)

  145. There are many kinds of love, Paul.

  146. Habib and Montana

    If you're both still up here's a classic from Stevie Wonder

    Nite x

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