25 October 2009

Daily Chat 25/10/09

Sorry for the delay -- I've been having some technical difficulties.

Battle of Agincourt in 1415.  Battle of Balaclava in 1854.  The Red Guard took the Winter Palace in 1914.  The Zinoviev Letter was published in the Daily Mail in 1924.  The US invaded Grenada in 1983.

Born today:  Georges Bizet (1838-1875), Pablo Picasso (1881-1973) and Nancy Cartwright (1957).

It is Republic Day in Kazakhstan.


  1. Picasso's birthday eh...? Stoaty, Deano - A Picasso Bench !

  2. Is that a statement bench or wot! The benchmark for benches?

  3. It's a pretty good bench I have to say.

  4. That is a very beautiful bench BW but would it suit stoaty and deano's purposes? Although there would be a tendency to slide towards the middle.

  5. Indeed Sheff ! As there's no apparent aperture, it may be more of a frottagers' charter. But then I'm displaying clear gender bias here. Who knows what sails whose boat ? Or bench even ? All I know is I'm off to look at DiY products and then go for a country walk while it's still light !
    Have a good day y'all
    PS good work on the posties thread people, esp PCC. By christ those free market gits piss me off.

  6. sheff
    True, but imagine their description of the meeting at the midpoint ... a sort of Vulcan mindmeld.

  7. The benches thing confused me so I went back and read through what happened on yesterday's thread after I went out. Feel a bit queasy now...

    seconding bitterweed on the postie thread - well done princess, sheffpixie, and annetan (annetan's posts give me a strange and moving sense of...what's the word?...hope, that's it.

    Anyway, the party was a blast. There were two darth vaders, two shaolin monks, about five ninjas, a spartan, Athene, Lara Croft, Tank Girl, Monkey, an eco-warrier, and Otis Ferry. Amongst others. Fortunately it was a warm night so my legs were not frozen. Now slightly confused as to what time it is...

  8. WE all kept the flag flying on the Posties thread I think - especially PCC!

    Was a good article and by and large a good thread generally very supportive of the posties apart from a fewer total tossers that is!

    federal express anyone?

  9. My favourite art and seat joke was a cartoon by John Glashan, showing Gauguin dropping in to see Van Gogh, who says 'Don't sit on that chair - it's just been painted'.

  10. PhilippaB
    At least you can remember who was there!


    And agree, good posts supporting the posties - how can anyone not?

  11. Phillipa,
    The Otis Ferry or an Otis Ferry?
    Glad you enjoyed yourself.

  12. an otis ferry. which took some explaining to the largely french contingent at the party.

    and i think i can remember the evening due to avoiding the punch and sticking to V&A - the shaolin monks, in particular, seemed to be in some difficulties after a few glasses of 'le potion magique'. drunk people with nun-chukas - not the best idea in the world...mind you, i kept poking people with my sword [chuckle].

  13. MsC

    vulcan mindmeld...heh..heh..heh

    Princess was stonking on the postie thread, and anne too. Don't get me started on FE et al.


    Glad you had a good night - but did the costume do the trick? Was Otis in full hunting mode, or possibly prison garb?

    Lovely sunny day so off out to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park with the family and all the kids - there's a Grayson Perry show on (not a big fan so I will probably pick holes and nit pick) but mainly I want to gloat over all the Henry Moores and Hepworths dotted around the park - beautiful place.

  14. How does one dress as an Otis Ferry? If I remember he is an unremarkable looking chap.

  15. Sheff - fab sculpture there me and lass try to visit every year.Enjoy.

    My father was photographed stripped to waist underground as a working collier by Moore as part of his studies of the human form.

    Could never quite see me dad anywhere in the beautiful reclining nudes though...

  16. otis was in tweeds with a lovely V-neck over shirt-and-tie combo. get the feeling he had probably just left costume-planning a bit late...

    bit conflicted about the Cath Bennett thread (thread, not article, which was v weak), but as several people talking about legalisation have mentioned 'paying taxes', just thought I'd share a quick anecdote.

    a colleague asked me to speak to a client who'd booked a one-off advisory meeting - I asked why, as he dealt with the commercial clients, and me the charities, but he just hemmed and hawed and asked if I could do it 'as a favour'.

    so I take the meeting, and the client explained that she was properly registered for tax, NI (self-employed) etc, but was approaching the VAT registration threshold and wanted to discuss her options.

    we established that due to her limited allowable expenses, the flat rate scheme would suit her best.

    cue telephone call to HMRC as to which category her services would fall into. options included "sport/recreation" and "entertainment or journalism", but we compromised on "any other activity not listed elsewhere"...

    all this having been noted, she said that she'd do the registration and returns herself, so I gave her some guidance on the forms, and that was that.

    told my colleague to issue the bill, as she wouldn't be taking up any ongoing services. "thank christ for that", he said.

    now, I'd been a bit uncomfortable with the situation, but she was well on top of her finances, very engaged in the meeting, very organised. kind of client you'd normally love to have. were it not for the industry sector she was in.

    "we couldn't have her turning up to meetings - she might bump into a nun in reception" was his answer.

    "christ" i thought to myself "how come she gets seen as 'just a prossie' when we don't identify any of our other clients (apart from possibly the nuns) that way? she wasn't wearing a scarlet letter - she was wearing a suit, looked like every other client we have (apart from the nuns)"

    Still conflicted about the subject. But probably more cross about some of the views expressed in relation to the issue than the issue itself. Don't know if that mandates for or against 'normalising' prostitution by full legalisation or not.


  17. Do you have a copy of the photo Deano? Your Pa'll be in the sculptures somewhere, or what Moore thought was his essence - and what a place to be - serenely gazing out over that lovely landscape.

  18. Agree with everybody the UT team effort on the posties was exemplary.It was easy to add a 'recommend' to the thoughtful posts of all of the sisters here and a true pleasure too.

    I wish I could live long enough to see the cabinet papers when they are finally released into the public domain. I wonder what Alan Johnson was saying/doing??

    As my old MP I would be surprised if the Blair years have stripped him of his union loyalties, but who really knows what spending time in the same county as Mandleson can do to a man's DNA

  19. Christ, I'm now posting on fashion...

    snap out of it woman.

  20. Sheff

    I don't. As the years went by it got progressively damaged (it wasn't framed but kept in a draw can you believe) and proud of it as he was me dad one day threw it away.

    Angst!! There were only ever two things of my fathers that I ever wanted. One was that dog eared black and white gloss pic of dad with a pick hacking the black shiny coal.

    The photo was plainly staged but it was a piece of art in its own right.

    The other was a broken chain driven inscribed (expensive)silver pocket watch that had belonged
    to my grandfather. One day some smooth antique seeking tosser knocked on the door looking to get old folk to sell their valuable for pennies.

    He sold that watch for a few quid that he didn't even need. I would have given him a hundred times more just to have kept in the family even though by rights it would never have come to me as I wasn't the oldest son.

    Me dad was surely a contrary and cussed old sod!!
    There were only two things of value that but I remember it we

  21. @Edwin - nice one! He did like his chairs, old Vinnie. Ever been to the VG Museum in Amsterdam? Highly recommended.

    Caught "Lust for Life" again the other day. Magnificent film and a stunning performance from The Dimple himself. My favourite actor.

    Just read yesterday's thread...Monkeyfish ATL? Sex with bikes? Was this an elaborate plot to get Seaton all hot and bothered?

  22. Phillipa

    Agree about the Bennett article - very confusing and messy. The thread is what you'd expect on a piece about prostitution - agendas everywhere. Your colleagues response is interesting - does he think something might rub off on him in some way? Anyway how would anyone know what she did?

    We have a famous hooker in Sheffield who worked the streets around where I used to live, (although I think she may have retired now, she was getting on then). I eventually got to know her quite well and she used to come in for brews and to use the bathroom between clients sometimes. Mad as a bat from overdoing the swally but I liked her. We mainly talked about her dogs which she adored and her flat which she was very proud of. No john was allowed anywhere near it.

    Had to bail her out once when she was caught for stealing a bottle of brandy in Tescos. The police and magistrates were really rather kind to her, think they'd given up trying to reform her.

    She'd take her teeth out for blow jobs which was one of the things her clients liked her for so she told me.

  23. That last garbled part sentence above should have been deleted.

    Sheff I have it in mind one day to spend some time looking/researching at the Moore archive to see if I can find Moore's own copy of the photo.

  24. Deano - good idea - given that you have so little of him. I'll think of him, with his pick in hand when I'm up there this afternoon.

  25. Deed done. I have just emailed the Moore archive to ask for access. They have several hundred thousand photos taken by Henry - so who knows?? Fingers crossed.

    Have a great day - I'm out with dogs now.

  26. deano, here's a bench for you. Would this not look great outside the caravan?

  27. LSEScientist on the gay marriage in Sweden thread:
    Get adult. The objection against gays is about open sex relationships not men marrying men. In a world where men +men couples had closed sexual intimacy there would be hardly any objection. But statistically very very few gay relationships are closed.

    Most are like that of Stephen Gately and his partner plus that student. This is what stops the acceptance of gaymen as having relationships on equal par to those of straights. Whether the prejudice is right or not it is what the issue is about.

    I have one thing to say to that. (Well, two things, but I try not to drop the C-bomb on CIF). Lesbians. 'Statistically' (i.e. stereotypically) more likely to move in together after one date, and stay together for decades. So what's the objection to lesbian marriage?

    Really ticks me off when people think homosexuality is purely a male thing.

    Right. Footy's on, enjoy your afternoons...

  28. Afternoon fellow untrusties

    God that extra hour was much needed! Up an hour early, and I have finished me work at 2pm instead of 3 pm so I can spend the afternoon watching crap tv and zapping the numpties on CiF.

    The Van Gogh Museum is amazing.

  29. Scherfig - erm how to say this..

    Scherf here I am trying to portray myself as a tramp with taste.

    The sort who could own, or aspire to own, the sort of bench to which articulate women of wit and sensibilities, irrespective of age, would naturally flock..

    The bench has to have that certain ...(whats the word/phrase I'm looking for? - it's French)... quality which would signal resistance is futile and engagement is inevitable.

    I want to attract that sort of woman who should she see me in the street, walking with a Rene Macintosh chair, would know that we weren't just going to sit down and dine from the chair.

    Given these subtle considerations I'm just not sure that your proosed bench would fit the bill - but I will reserve final judgement till I take the view of Comrade stoaty.

    Now whilst I do have a plan for Comrade BW's superb, admirably erotic and exotic Picasso bench I suspect that the colours in your suggested addition to my bench collection would clash with the colour of my beard.

    In any event I'm an ardent supporter of the local dogs home and should unhappystance or dreadful accidental misunderstanding occur and I were to find myself inextricably attached to said bench - I think they might ask me to leave the association. Middle aged helpers at dogs homes are prone to get the wrong end of the stick when it comes to these things.

    Given all of the above many thanks for you careful consideration on my behalf


  30. Come on Liverpool... please don't fucking kill me again...

  31. I should add that I really want a bench that is capable of absorbing the aromatics of a woman like Simone de Beauvoir.

    I'm not freakish about brass plaques being attached like stoaty.

    If a brass plaque said Julie Christie rested here whilst filming Zhivago or Shirley Anne Field whiled a mo whist filming Saturday Night and Sunday Morning or even Jennifer Agutter sat here whilst reading the script of Equus.. I could be interested, very interested indeed.

    A little shopping calls


  32. Woodthorpe Park in Nottm, deano, where the lovely young Shirley Ann filmed a scene with Finney in Saturday Night...there's a few benches there at the top of the hill overlooking the city. Might be worth a punt.

    No goals and no red cards yet, BW. Very disappointing (-;

  33. Just to be clear everybody we are not looking for one of these:

    unattractive bench

    (Save only the exceptional artiste associations mentioned above and authenticated at that.)

    I wouldn't want folk to get the wrong idea. Especially newish ladies like Philippa and PCC.

    Ladies rest assured I would not be seen dead with a bench like the above in tow, and nor in fairness would Stoaty. We aspire to better, we deserve better and we will have better.

    Somebody ought to have posted on the posties thread that we would all do well to recall what that tosser Leighton did to Leeds Utd when he was chairman there - some fucking supporter he was..

  34. I should be ashamed of myself - I really ought to have posted something about Leighton and the Asda/Walmart link and the virulent anti union stance of the Walmart family of shits and shites.

    I'm sorry posties.

  35. Well 2 goals and 2 red cards in the end then, BW. Ref bottled the big one though, Owen would have been clear through and surely 1-1...

    In other footie news, Montana Wildhack 3 Monkeyfish 2.

    Ah well now for a real football team, cmon the Arse!

  36. Ahhh !!!
    Hang on ... Arse ??? I thought you were a Forest lad???

  37. Hell yes BB - Tinselworm, great gig !

  38. Thanks BB I loved it LOL - it's absolutely true.

    Me lass and her mate were very fond of holidaying together in Egypt and they have loads of stories of being approached at world class antiquities sites and being offered anything and everything at asdaprice.

    They have photo's taken in remote areas of Eygpt with green ink biro scrawled signs saying limonade asdaprice!!

  39. I do my level best to avoid the big supermarkets, although of all of em Sainsbury's is the least worst I guess. If I can afford it, I shop in Waitrose. When I can't I shop in Lidl. More often than not it is a combination of the two, with the local butcher thrown in for good measure

    (That may sound daft, but the one thing about my job is that you know what time you leave the house, but you never know what time you are coming home, how much you are actually going to be paid or, more importantly, when you are going to be paid it - so there are months when even Lidl is a bloody luxury...)

  40. BW - I bought a boxed set of 4 of Bill's gigs, including Tinselworm, for the lad a while ago. He is a huge fan and loves the combination of music and comedy.

  41. BB - a stalwart like you ought to be at the Co-op for your shopping, although I hear John Lewis Partnership in your defence.

    Asda started in Leeds it was originally a kinda co-op for farmers the name being Associated Daries now long forgotten.

    So many interesting companies with values have been destroyed by MBA educated tossers.

    All the great Quaker companies( not only the Chocolate companies Fry/Rowntree/Cadbury but the non arms engineering giants like Joseph Lucas) sunk without trace fucked up and sold on by venture capitialist/hedge fund type tossers.

    What Hank has recently been saying about the contribution of the unions to working people is I think true - but there was also a massive contribution to the notion of workplace welfare that came from the example set by the Quaker companies.

    If only they hadn't had a downer on pissheads I might have considered working for them...

  42. We've not got a co-op near here, otherwise I would, deano. But all our insurance is with the co-op in manchester.

    I never knew that Lucas was a quaker company!

  43. Enjoy that, BW?

    Yeh, Forest is my team, but Arsenal's my dad's team, born and bred in Islington, and I was born in Holloway (not at the prison...). Les Gooneurs and Barca are the two teams I'll always make a point of watching. Pretty jaded with much that surrounds footie these days, but those two make a case for it still being The Beautiful Game.

    @deano - yep, true about the Quakers. And the Methodists of course.

  44. Arse were my old man's team too, although his "real" side was Watford.

    "Pretty jaded with much that surrounds footie these days"
    Know what you mean, but going to enjoy motd tonight !


  45. I must say that now I'm retired and with more time on my hands than is wise, for a man with my dispositions, I love visiting all the leading supermarkets and creating havoc for store managers.

    It's not malicious. It's something to do with my silly ideas that we all ought to share our knowledge and subject it to public scrutiny - how else shall we become educated BB?

    When I have one on me I will happily argue (I have a voice that can carry when I want it to - to the far side of the store if necessary) with the managers about anything and everything that I find distasteful about their companies.

    I do sometimes lie. I tell them that tramp I might be but that does not preclude me from being a small shareholder in the company. Truth is I wouldn't have a share given in any of the high street thieves.

    When I take out my notebook and pen and ask for their names, it often signals hilarity for the staff at the checkouts - but I really can keep a straight face.

    I ought to tell you some of the tales there almost as joyous as those of Mungo.

    Regards BB

    To be absolutely truthful it is a mischief that I have developed and perfected out of rare but occasional boredom.

  46. BW
    Here's Them Crooked Vultures:

  47. BB
    Yeh, Bailey has always been pretty impressive with da yoots too. No mean feat for the 1982 Michael Bolton "Stars in their eyes" regional winner ;-)

  48. I used to work at Lucas CAV. On our section was a chap called Hamilton Piercy who used to be head of the blackshirt's uniformed section until he got religion. Tough old bugger, staunch Labour,(as we used to say)
    He was married to William Joyce's divorced first wife.

  49. Good on you, deano. I intend to be as awkward as I possibly can be when I am retired. I have already been getting into practice with Marks and Sparks online recently. Ordered a pair of trews for the lad more than a month ago that have still not arrived, so I am giving em hell by email... god I am turning into Victor Meldrew! Still, sometimes they deserve it, the gits...

    I have posted this before but I will post it again cos I love it so much:

    Warning. When I Am An Old Woman I Shall Wear Purple

    by Jenny Joseph

    When I am an old woman, I shall wear purple

    with a red hat that doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.

    And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves

    and satin candles, and say we've no money for butter.

    I shall sit down on the pavement when I am tired

    and gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells

    and run my stick along the public railings

    and make up for the sobriety of my youth.

    I shall go out in my slippers in the rain

    and pick the flowers in other people's gardens

    and learn to spit.

    You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat

    and eat three pounds of sausages at a go

    or only bread and pickles for a week

    and hoard pens and pencils and beer nuts and things in boxes.

    But now we must have clothes that keep us dry

    and pay our rent and not swear in the street

    and set a good example for the children.

    We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

    But maybe I ought to practice a little now?

    So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised

    When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.

  50. BB - I read and recognised it when you first posted it young miss - me lass wore a purple coat to the funeral of the friend she holidayed with in Egypt only last week.

    It's a favourite amongst some lasses of my generation too. IF we substitute 'spit in me socks' for 'purple' it would do well for me and some blokes as well.

    The rant to command attention in M&S goes:

    ........"I might now choose to be a tramp but my great aunt went to school with Sief .....

    have you no fucking idea about the relationship between M&S ....and a penny in ....Leeds..... don't you know about Tom and............"

    By the way BB on a serious note - I opined a few days ago that I would like to see a piece on UTt about lawyers and the resistance to retrospective law from you - you missed it or thought it something not for you?

    How are we to deal with the banksters if we can't talk about retrospective law? Don't just say Parliament

  51. Well, martillo will be a Appy Ammer tonight...

    Game changed when West Ham brought on Hines. He was full of beans, added variety to the attack and allowed them to ketchup with Le Arse.

    Good day all round for Chelsea )-:

  52. Deano

    Sorry love, I missed that. Sounds like a reasonable idea. I will have to give it some thought.


    My young clerk at work will be happy then. The other day when they had photos in one of the tabloids of the Hammers fans who had kicked off all the shit at the beginning of the season, I was scouring the papers to make sure he wasn't among em.

  53. Retrospective or retroactive law is a bad idea, deano. All well and good using it to punish the bankers but once you've set that precedent in a morally justifiable cause, what other actions taken in good faith might then be punished by an illiberal govt? Jeez, the way the smoking lobby are setting the tone, I could end up getting jailed for having smoked in public places before the ban came in.

  54. Stoaty

    "I used to work at Lucas CAV."

    Which plant Bro?

    ( I never worked for Joe) Me 75yr old mate who worked in the toolroom was a leading steward in the Brum end of the business and remains a close mate of mine.

  55. I was doing the same when there were pics of the QT demonstrators on here the other day, BB. Hadn't heard from laddo as to whether he'd gone down for the day, turned out he hadn't, but he was at the demo in Derbyshire a few weeks back and half his head was clear in a photo in the Obs!

  56. deano,
    Rochester, the old Short Bros factory.

  57. If you have cable/freeview/sky and you have never seen it, The Constant Gardner is on ITV 3 at nine. Dunno about the film, the book - a Le Carre - is bloody brilliant. All about Big Pharma and their "testing" in Africa.

  58. Hank - hehehehe! Excellent!

    He needs to get together with my lad, who is a proper anti-fash too. :o)

  59. Hank

    I know that that is the conventional wisdom and after a revolution which created a just and equitable society I too would wish too see it codified in a constitution - but we are not there yet. We need to explain to our kin how the bastards hide and benefit from the shadow of the claim:

    "Retrospective or retroactive law is a bad idea

  60. "born and bred in Islington"...

    ..aristocratic connections...

    You're Harriet Harman and I claim my £5.

    Been busy today, writing my first ATL contribution. Matt Seaton's given me a free hand.

    Decided to go for: "X Factor-talent show or trafficking racket".

    Young, impressionable hopefuls are lured from their homes, with the promise of a career in the 'entertainment' industry...forced to live with 12 other 'performers' in an undisclosed location somewhere in London and wheeled out for the amusement of sad, elderly punters who often only want to abuse and humiliate them. I'm proposing a nationwide police and multi-agency task force to investigate this appalling stain on the nation's reputation.

    I managed to talk to one anonymous punter who would only identify himself as Mr. Poisson who told me, in a very dodgy French accent,..."yeah, so what..the desperate little fuckers love it, they can't get enough, most of them would do it for nothing".

    This is the sort of attitude I came up against again and again....

  61. Stoaty

    I'm about a long spit and two quick wanks away from the old blackburn(?) seaplane (now aerospace) factory on the Humber.

    Small world Bro.

  62. Hope you don't mind, but I am saving this here for posterity. I think I have had one too many glasses of red, cos it really isn't like me to be so rude, but some complete fuckwit has showed up on the Barnbrook thread and they can't be let past without a good fucking kicking.

    "That's why I always keep the door open when a gay cunt sails buy. Furthermore it's hygienic: We wouldn't want to get AIDS from touching doorhandles now."

    Blimey, love. You have really been drinking the Kollett Kool-Aid, haven't you?

    Did your Mummy tell you not to sit on toilet seats too in case you caught the clap? Ahhh... too late I see....

    (OK mods, it's a fair cop - I'll come quietly. But Shit-For-Brains started it....)"

  63. Sorry deano, it's pie in the sky and would just lead to a bonanza for lawyers. I'd prefer to see a more direct action solution to the issue of bankers' bonuses (-;

    I think most kids are almost instinctively anti-fascist these days, BB, due to having grown up in integrated schools. Not exclusively true of course, but this seems to be the one political issue a lot of them care about. That and animal rights, and green issues.

    I've never bought the idea that our kids are depoliticised, I just think that they are more likely to be single issue activists, lacking a coherent strategy or theory to bring those issues together and make them effective as an angry and energised coalition.

    That's not their fault of course, that's the long-term legacy of the 1968ers.

  64. With regard to ASDA price, in Egypt. For the best part of 20 years there's been a shop, just outside the entrance to the Sheraton, at the southern end of Luxor, with "Everything Luvly Jubly ASDA Price" & they even have an Arkwright's supermarket in the same area (it's sometimes referred to as "Little Britain".

  65. Hank

    I don't mind having a special very difficult to climb pinnacle which has to be mounted before retro law - but for me I cant rule it out.

    It would compel me to shoot a man between the eyes without at least giving him the chance to reform. I find that distasteful.

  66. True dat, Hank - nothing coherent that they can pin their flag to except individual ideals. We have some interesting conversations from time to time about Marxism and Trotskyism (my hubby was a Trot in the 60s in Canada) but it is so divorced from anything the lad can perceive of that it is just pissing in the wind really.

    He has the right instincts though - as does yours by the sound of it - and that is a bloody good start.

  67. Deano

    There is an inherent danger in any form of retrospective legislation. However, there is nothing to stop legislation being enacted that says "from today this is the position, so from today looking forwards, this is what will affect you, even if it was different in the past". That is easy to achieve in terms of the bankers, imo.

  68. "I find that distasteful."

    Nice one, deano. I could live with it tbh. The bastards have had plenty of chances to reform, they're innately incapable of doing so and should be dealt with as punitively as any other form of anti-social scum.

  69. "Sorry deano, it's pie in the sky and would just lead to a bonanza for lawyers."

    Hank lawyers live on precedent. Have you any idea at the rate which precedent accumulates every day every week every year.

    If I ruled the world lawyers (with the exception of our BB who would be made LCJ) would shit themselves. I might just say I'm going to introduce a new law with retro effect the intent of which is to say :

    I don't give a fuck what happened in 17** or even 189* less 19*0. Me mine and yours are not bound by our forefathers.

    We and ours have a difficult future to consider....

    BY THE WAY I CAN SEE I'm cross typing - I am by def a little slow when the thread moves fast.

  70. All the difference in the world between case law and statute though, deano. If someone took out a private prosecution against Northern Rock for instance, demanding repayment of their share of public money before any dividends or bonuses could be paid, and was successful all the way to the Lords or the ECJ, then fair play to them. It would be a great precedent to set.

    But for Parliament to do it, it would be the equivalent of Hitler's Enabling Act.

  71. Just had a look at that Barnbrook thread, BB. I'm guessing by the deletions that the troll in question was "mariaxmagdalena", yeh?

    If Cif really want to bring in the page hits, they could do worse than commission a piece on the historical links between Fascism and the Catholic Church.

  72. "All the difference in the world between case law and statute though, deano"

    You have me there Bro - is it case law that defines the limitations of statute law or statue law that defines the limitation of case law?

  73. Hehehehe - now that would be an interesting one, Hank. Although, in fairness, there was also a history, certainly in France, of the Catholic Church protecting Jews. Beautiful film by Louis Malle called "Au Revoir Les Enfants" which is based on his memories as a child in a Catholic school where some of the priests were taking in jewish kids and got caught and suddenly "disappeared" as a result.

    Not saying for a moment that it was like that everywhere, by the way. The Vatican is said to have known about everything that was going on in concentration camps way before the rest of us did and did absolutely jack shit to intervene or prevent it. Sigh...

  74. deano

    I spend the best part of my life trying to say that it is the case law that defines the statute. That was the way it always used to be. Unfortunatly these days, more and more statutory law is enacted in such strict terms as to make any variations on construction virtually impossible. On the other hand, any statute that serves the purpose of the State is so full of fekken holes that they can make it up as they go along.

  75. BB - boo, I missed your smackdown on the barmcake thread. sounds like it was pretty good!

  76. Pip

    A truly vile little creep was on there. Not even pretending to be a reasonable human being. As I said, sometimes I just don't want to be polite to the little fekkers any more. :o)

  77. Well, the user name of the latest BNP troll put the thought in my mind tbh.

    But if you look at the fascist groups of the 30s in France and Spain, there were strong ties to the Catholic Church. Partly due to anti-Bolshevism no doubt, but anti-semitism has always found a home in certain Catholic quarters.

    And of course...Is the Pope a Nazi?

    Cmon Seaton, if you're going to run 5 pieces a day on the BNP, at least go for one which isn't just playing to the gallery, you bicycle-clipped wuss (-;

  78. Case law vs statute is an interesting topic actually, deano and BB, from the pov of democracy.

    Is case law a reflection of the will of juries and therefore more democratic as a measure of the popular voice? Or do reactionary judges meddle too much, influencing juries or overturning their verdicts on Appeal, thereby ensuring that a privileged elite has an anti-democratic stranglehold on the common law?

    And if statute, as enacted by Parliament, doesn't properly reflect the will of the people, is democracy dead?

    I'd like 2000 words from each of you on my desk by registration on Wednesday, thankyou.

  79. Hank

    The whole "checks and balances" question is a really interesting one. On the one hand you have a legislature entirely directed by the executive in the form of party whips. On the other hand you have a judiciary who maintains a modicum of independence, but which is not immune to pressures from the executive either - the ruling on the DNA database having to go to Strasbourg before it was resolved springs to mind.

    I don't have a clue where we are any more. There are still some judges out there with the cojones to tell the politicians to go fuck themselves, Judge John Deed stylee, but they are few and far between.

  80. JJDeed is a fascinating programme, BB, because of the light it sheds on the pressure which the executive exerts on the judiciary. Shame that there aren't a few maverick judges out there who are prepared to stand up and speak out about what's happening.

    And, let's face it, it's always happened. It's just that it's more obvious under NL, given that its controlling tendencies are anathema to judges whose own instincts are liberal, small state, and the freedoms of the individual.

    It's a shame that they are also pro-private property when it comes to tax law, and particularly agitated about the rights of the individual when that individual is set against the unions, but less so when that individual is battling against a corporation.

    Very few judges, unfortunately, are able to set aside their own vested interests, class prejudices and masonic loyalties when reaching their judgements.

    With few exceptions, they are as much a part of the problem as Parliament and the corporations.

  81. Re Judges: pretty much right there, Hank. I have a bit of a soft spot for Sedley who goes against the grain a bit in the appeal courts.

  82. While you're on the Barnbrook thread with PG, BB, tell him to drop by at the UT. Haven't seen him on here for ages and he's much missed.

    Tell him to change his avatar as well and cheer up, the miserable old curmudgeon.

  83. BB

    "I spend the best part of my life trying to say that it is the case law that defines the statute."

    Of course you do that's what decent people always do but what they usually also do is say

    "...this piece of case law is superior to that piece of case law..."

    I have no grown up argument about that save only what am I to leave in my notes for my yet to be born grandchildren - the enquiry I most humbly made was not what is/was the definitional relationship between case and statue law.

    "You have me there Bro - is it case law that defines the limitations of statute law or statue law that defines the limitation of case law?"

    It was more an enquiry of limitations?

    By the way BB I'm not here to trick or play with my friends and very much admired comrades.

    I like you and all of us have to make notes for my kids and grand kids to read one day.

    I don't want my kin to ever conclude that I did not exhaust all the possibilities before I concluded "shoot"

    Thatcher's argument that there was no alternative may yet come to discomfort her offspring - who the fuck would want to be hunted by your grandma's shrill call TINA... if they didn't know why.

    If I have to say to mine "TINA". I want to be able to say to the best of my best ability why that was...and why I thus called "shoot"

    I know I shall fail but I owe them the effort.

  84. Wow guys the speed of this thread outstrips my ability to keep up.

    If you anticipated or advanced me - please to forgive

  85. deano - as I understand it, statute will always override case law. Statute is law made by Parliament and Parliament is the supreme law-making body in the UK and therefore its laws, where they conflict with case/common law, as decided by judges and juries, will always take precedence.

  86. What a fucking delight:

    "Very few judges, unfortunately, are able to set aside their own vested interests, class prejudices and masonic loyalties when reaching their judgements."

    Hank - Bro the notion of the senior HL judiciary respectfully and warmly speaking of each the other as the brotherhood in judgements whilst the day afther hinting that trade unionists were in league with Satan.....

    Part of my notes to my children....

  87. My laypersons understanding of the hierarchy of legal relationships was the same Hank but...... sometimes people need to query if they can trust a judiciary when they plainly can't trust a political class.

    Call me biased call me an ignorant old tit - of no real significance.

    We don't want to bore our audience.

    Subject change called for?????

  88. Stoaty - I don't think Sunderlands here on the Humber.

    Some old 191'ish early Blackburn Flying Boat.

    The last significant plane the Buccaneer thereafter bits and bobs for aerospace!

  89. Well, how on earth am I supposed to come on here, take joy in a much-needed Trotters win and observe (with apologies to my beloved Tel), that Sir Alex is a tosser, when you're all having such a serious discussion?

  90. "Subject change called for????"

    Let's talk about the BNP, deano. It's shameful that the Guardian generally, and Cif in particular, have ignored this issue recently.

  91. Hank

    Or we could talk trafficking - CiF hasn't done that one for a while either.

  92. Hey montana

    I still haven't managed to wrap up your jaffa cakes and get them posted. They are still sat on my kitchen counter. There is a postal strike on at the moment, though, so I blame Postman Pat...

    Hank, you're right. I wish the Graun would have the courage to do at least one article about the BNP.... every five minutes... :p

  93. Montana

    If you you will not allow me to send you a copy of "The Surgeon of Crowethorne" for Xmas at least let me try to find the USA title of said book.

    You can then get it from your local library ( do you have public links, at a cost, to the national library?)

    Perhaps you read it already - if not it's a most wonderful yarn. The story of Dr Minor and how the American Civil War came to influence the most important book OED (of many volumes) ever put together.

    It's a class yarn the kind of which attracts younger women to sit by the side of older men on civilized benches...



  94. For the avoidance of doubt - there is no 'e' in Crowethorne.

  95. Pretty sure there's at least one "e" in Crowthorne, deano.

    You'll be saying that there's no "e" in Ibiza next.

    @mschin - the trafficking thing...Nick Davies is a fine journalist. The blogs commissioned by Henry and Seaton, I assume, in response to his piece have been a new low for Cif. AllyF said it all a few days ago.

  96. HANK!

    Do NOT type stuff like this when I am drinking;

    "You'll be saying that there's no "e" in Ibiza next"

    Red wine up the nose is no pleasant. Ever.

  97. Anyhoo - the Constant Gardner, the movie, is too leapy-about-the-place imo. Read the book if you haven't already, but the film is too bitty.

  98. Thank you Comrade:

    There is no early 'e' in Crowthorne.

  99. Hank
    Yep, Davies is good & his article was good. The rest shouldn't have been written.

  100. Not a big fan of Le Carre on screen tbh, BB, apart from "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold". Cool, cynical and Burton was fucking magnificent. As he was a year later in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"

    Incidentally, two "e"s in every "gardener", which would explain why most of them are happy, laidback and always turn up two days after agreed.

  101. Before I sleep and then not be able to follow the rut be clear half baked, fun loving coke sniffing, ale raddled and variously disordered twats:

    The argument about the hierarchy of the law - is about your willingness to be constrained by your fathers and grandfathers wisdom.

    That's your business. I say no but my vote is of no significance.

    I think I will only have a small number of posts before me machine finally breaks down - so if no more - your company I have enjoyed.

    It gets ever more complex to post.

    I estimate about another six but less than ten.


  102. Deano

    I hope you manage to find a new machine. Netbooks are good, and cheaper than laptops. We will miss you round here if you disappear!

    Remember Blockbusters? "I'll have an E please, Bob". Snigger fnarr fnarr

  103. Fucking hell. That mariax bird is French Fash. Why the fuck can't they stick to their own country? Do I go onto the Figaro website and annoy them? No! So she should FOAD.

  104. BB

    I'll speculate one of my six on:


  105. Deano -- the book was apparently called The Professor and the Madman here in the US. I've not heard of it by either title. Did read and enjoy Winchester's The Map that Changed the World.

    We have a pretty useless library, unless you're into Christian romance novels and right-wing rants. Stopped even trying to find reading material there a few years ago. The fundy Christian women who work there are too officious to bother trying to work with to us inter-library loan. I'm afraid I have to order all my reading material online.

  106. Hank
    Blimey, that was a turnup with the 'ammers!

    I'm reading Le Carre's most recent at the moment btw, pretty good so far, early days. Le Carre's great.

    Wotteva, night all.

  107. BB - I just lurved this one from the "mad Dutch oven" (quoting talktotheflowers):


    25 Oct 09, 10:17pm (17 minutes ago)


    my messages are usually unintelligible for people with less than 3 braincells.
    Sorry about that.
    Have a nice day!

    (next time have a flogoff before you comment something.)"

  108. Oh, and BB -- I'll gladly suffer the want of Jaffa cakes for the sake of solidarity with the Posties. Down with Royal Mail management scum!

  109. New primetime "talent" show :

    The Great British Flogoff !

    Hah. Crooked Vultures: v heavy btw mschin. Kinda Kool B-)


  110. Montana - It would be my privilege and delight as a friend to send you a copy of said book for Christmas - if you would care to entrust your address or postbox thing to me.

    You have my email send me where to post it and I will so very happily do so. It would make happy - tramps sometimes get angry about being excluded from the happiness of giving..

    We can't row about this thing I only have a few more posts before my machine blinks no more....


  111. BW
    I only wish I knew what a flogoff was ...
    but then again, I'm not an Oxbridge grad middle class leftie, who probably would.

  112. Montana:

    Hope you spit when you mention that team which wears red & is based in Manchester; it's the done thing in Bolton (before the divorce, I used to live in a house that, literally looked directly downhill onto the Reebok Stadium).

  113. Chin - stop being coy a flogoff is a kinda fire sale.

    I expect more attention to understanding from my crew.

    Yours with affection and understanding...,

    Frederick Furnivall.

    Its only cos I like you that I spent one of my few remaining strikes..

  114. Thanks, Mr deano, kind sir. Apparently I've only got 3 brain cells so that exlains why it took me a while to cotton on there.

    Wonder where that Mr stoat personage is this evening?

  115. Deano - I hope you are going to get a new machine so you can post again. I would really miss your posts. Loving the arguing with the supermarket managers!
    If you get chance put 'tara turner - beautiful benches' into google (cant post links due to being a bit stupid) she has a calendar of beautiful benches called Stay For a While - Beautiful Benches.

    That Picasso bench was a thing of true beauty.

    I fear I need to keep a cooler head on Cif as all my angry posts on the Postie thread have been removed. I did apologise to FederalExpress though as I fear I did go a bit too far but still they have been disappeared.

    BB - thank for posting that poem I love it and not heard it for a long while.

  116. That silly little french fash tart has just called me out on my spelling! Pah! At least I use real words in French instead of "flogoff".

  117. My 3 brain cells are tired now and would like to retire to da boudoir with a hot water bottle, so it's goodnight from me.

  118. Night night mschin. You make sure and rest those brain cells now...

    Hugz x

  119. Cross posted there BB, so just nipped back to the thread. My, she's a feisty one, eh. And clearly not a fan of women's rights, so maybe not even female?

  120. BB
    *Hugs back* & defo good night!

  121. Beddy byes for me too possums

    Night night x

  122. Gary Younge's piece today is a belter. Gave him a bit of stick last week and it seems to have had the desired effect.

    You can take the boy out of Stevenage etc...

    @GP01 - not a United fan then? Where is scherfig today btw?

  123. No Hank, 5 miles from Wigan, so there's only one game for me, rugby league :)

  124. Always had a soft spot for League, GP01, from the Grandstand days waiting for score updates while Eddie Waring waxed lyrical about Warrington's oop and oonder againgst Widnes.

    Seems like a different world now...

  125. Not the game it was since Sky got a hand in it & introduced Super League.

  126. Probably not. League is pretty much a summer game now, isn't it? That's not right. It should be wet, dark and dismal.

    Like David Cameron.

  127. Copy for reference:

    "Sam and fellow posties

    My previous message of support has been moderated away....

    My message only said:

    1) all the public I know are with you;

    2) Mandeleson is widely perceived to be untrustworthy and with an unhealthy interest in the linings of his pockets by every decent educated person I and my family know;

    3) The public in my area grow daily more wise as to absurdity of the alleged arguments in favour of privatisation;

    4) Stand together, Stand United

    I have taken a facsimile copy of this post and the page and date and time of which it appeared in The Guardian online newspaper.

    If it is again removed (moderated away) I promise I will lay the evidence before my MP - Mr Alan Johnson and I will complain to the PCC about the failure to uphold the principles of free speech by this newspaper.

    Very best wishes Deano30."

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