16 October 2009

Daily Chat 16/10/09

Crap!  I forgot to do this and I seriously need to be getting to bed.  Marie Antoinette's body became separated from her head in 1793 and I'm sure some other stuff worth telling you about probably happened.  Oscar Wilde was born and maybe some other really fascinating people.  And it's World Food Day.  'night folks!


  1. Sleep well, Montana.

    In other news ....

    1996: Handguns to be banned in the UK
    1987: Hurricane winds batter southern England
    1978: Polish bishop is new Pope
    1974: Maze prison goes up in flames
    1967: Joan Baez arrested in Vietnam protest

    Among those celebrating birthdays today are Gary Kemp (Spandau Ballet), Tim Robbins (Actor), Bob Weir (Grateful Dead) and the wonderful Angela Lansbury, who (despite whatever The Guardian says) is an actress.

    Lost to the world on this day were Leo G Caroll (who was over a barrell apparently), Moshe Dayan and Liberace, who like Bidisha, is known by one name only, but for slightly different reasons.

  2. What is it the Guardian says about Angela Lansbury (who, by the way, also is a singer)? And in what way do the reasons differ regarding Lib and Bid?

  3. The Guardian says Angela Lansbury is an actor.

    Liberace is known by one name only because he was a popular and talented pianist. Bidisha is known by one name only because she thinks it sounds cool.

  4. Philippa (from last thread)
    "I think my ethos is that the individual can do what they like with themselves, but always within the context of society, so there is no unfettered right to earn / trade / what-have-you because that would be bad for society at large, whereas restricting this is not actually an infringement of the individual"

    Not sure what you mean here, is this just 'the world doesn't owe you a living'?

    Its a given that people need to work to survive I can't see that society benefits from a situation where there is not enough work for everyone who can work, or put it another way where the available work is shared by all. Is this 'an unfettered right to earn/trade etc? Or do you mean that the remuneration from work should be restricted to a given range in order to share the world's resources more fairly?

    AS to socialism being 'so 80's' and don't think its '80's' at all, given that 1) that decade saw the triumph of neoconservatism and 2) that it also saw what I consider to be the disintegration of socialism into identity politics (a process that did start in the 70's).

    The view of socialism as only meaning Stalinism that Montana referred to has gained in popularity (if that's the word) since then.

    To me socialism is simply a recognition that human beings are social creatures and that our strength ultimately comes from sharing and co-operation rather that greed and competion.

  5. annetan - morning! let's see if I can put that in a way that doesn't look like the opposite of what I mean...

    I favour freedoms /choices in relation to personal things - abortion, gay marriage - as these relate directly and specifically to the person - without getting too weird about it, to the soul. Now, a lot of these choices are just 'out there' anyway, freedom of thought, right to self-define, freedom of speech (ish), freedom of assumbly (ish) - anyway, while we may have an ongoing debate about where to draw the line on free speech / hate speech, for example, the idea that you are basically free to say (think, pray, do in your own home etc) as you like is pretty well established. For all the hyperbole, the UK CCTV culture etc is different from Big Brother and the Thought Police and Newspeak. What we're fussed with now is more the detail (sometimes very important details) of those freedoms, not the basic principle.

    However, the concept of freedom is, as Hank said so eloquently yesterday, usually seen as being free marketism. I think he meant that as being that "freedom is just the free market", whereas I'd see the assumption as being that it necessarily includes free marketism as well as the basic stuff that we take for granted.

    And I don't agree with that - I dont see financial things in the same way - when people say "but I worked hard, why whould I have to pay more tax?", I just really don't get that (other than in the way I'd get a toddler not wanting to share - it's a childish, selfish, reaction). There is no 'soul thing' such as a right to make as much money as possible without putting something back.

    And as it isn't a 'soul thing', I don't think restricting the right to make ludicrous amounts of money can be said to infringe an individual's 'freedom'.

    Which is how I reconcile supporting the idea of individual liberty with wanting a fairer economic / fiscal system. Which would involve wage controls, public spending, a stronger welfare state, greater regulation, a better tax curve, an assault on the current working model, etc etc. These two standpoints, to me, are not mutually exclusive. They work very well together.

    "To me socialism is simply a recognition that human beings are social creatures and that our strength ultimately comes from sharing and co-operation rather that greed and competion."

    So I'd agree with you 100%. We are individuals, with freedoms, but always within the context of society.

    Because a lot of debate about economics at the minute is very 'toddler refusing to share'. I mean, even after we were shown, up close and personal, what the financial sector had been up to, people are bitching about bankers' bonuses but still not ready to accept a 50% tax rate for high earners. That just bemuses me.

    Hope that makes more sense. And the 'eighties' things was a kidder...I'm just not sure whether 'socialist' accurately reflects my worldview either.

    Anyway, morning all.

  6. Quick question - if I want to attach a pdf file to a blog post, which is a file from my computer rather than one with a URL, how do I do that? Don't want to clog my blog up with that much text...

  7. Hello all,

    13thDuke here. I came across this village last week when PhilippaB discussed it in the why don't you thread.

    Anyway, I was following the thread last night and I thought there was some brilliant posts regarding 'the left'(something I'm very passionate about), Social Democracy and the future which inspired me to 'post in'.

    Monkeyfish, Hank et al nailed the emasculation of the left last night. The 'summer of 68' generation's stranglehold on 'the left' has continually undermined socialism as a relevant force in today's society.

    The generation of 68 with it's fashionable fusion of Mao, Che and bourgeois free love fuelled by generous government study grants and free tertiary education are now the establishment, living in the ivory towers and espousing right on leftie politics. You will notice that the 'S' word is never mentioned or espoused in any of their critiques.

    Of course as they are the self styled vanguard of the left, they are like sitting ducks for the right wing commentariat. It doesn't take rapier wit to blow holes through their hypocritical lifestyles and views.

    And this is what drives me mad about the Guardian. It's uniquely of the left compared to other papers, but rather than champion those without a voice in our society, they continually voice the 'Islington' left (a contradiction in terms). These views are of no relevance to anyone outside of the N1-N5 postcode.

    And as for the freedoms we enjoy. Again Hank and Monkeyfish got it spot on. It's the freedom of the few to exploit the many. It's that simple.

    I am very fond of Bertrand Russells's maxim on Capitalist liberty:

    “Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate”

    I can't think of any other maxim which sums up the neo-liberal freedoms we all suffer in 21st Century Britain.

    Thanks for allowing me to let off steam, and I may pop along occasionally if that's ok!


  8. If we say that the Guardian is 'of the left' often enough will it eventually make it so?

  9. Morning Your Grace (we do seem to have a very aristocratic group here)!

    Great Bertrand Russell quote.

  10. Philippa - thanks much clearer now! obviously we agree on the basics.

    Your Grace
    "Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate”
    Great quote!

    That is exactly what capitalist freedom means and has done ever since Cromwell.

  11. Annetan

    I'm with you on socialism - co-operation and consideration and also the notion that no one can be 'free' if that freedom is predicated on chains for other people - which is essentially how things work at the moment.

    Your 13th Grace - I agree with what you say about the 60's generation of which I am one. Hugely lucky, not to say spoilt and very reluctant to pass on their good fortunate to the following generations.

    I don't see that the pursuit of money as an end in itself can ever be a good thing and certainly doesn't equate to 'wealth' which I would have thought includes things like knowledge, education, justice for everyone not only those that can afford it.

    In the world we live in freedom is an illusion

  12. 13th Duke hello and welcome (as long as you remember your place - Dukes come below royalty!!) No seriously - I have been really enjoying your posts on CIF so it is great to see you over here.

    I used to be more of a liberal really but I always believed in restrictions on capitalism - you know the sort of thing - a more mixed economy state control over essentials like transport, utlities etc. Minimum wage, decent benefits. But more and more as time goes on I am seeing that socialism really is the only way forward. Because every time that these gains are made within a capitalist system they are then rolled back. More and more each time.

    One of the things I have posted on a lot - which really interests me is how every time there is any sort of progress it is followed by a period of extreme economic liberalism. This eventually ends up with terrible inequality and all the ills that follow.

    It is quite striking how inequality rose massively before the 1870's when you got the first 'great depression' or the long depression it also rose as we all know before the thirties. But what I did not know till I looked into it is that it also rose massively in the years leading up to the first world war and was at its peak in 1913 - it was actually the highest level seen since the 1800's - until now.

    When anne says that we can only thrive through cooperation and not competition and selfishness she is right and of course the whole capitalist system is built on these latter traits, so it has to go...

  13. He's no Bertrand Russell, but I was listening to News Quiz podcasts last night and there's this from Jeremy Hardy, after a further round of job losses:

    "The lesson of what's happened recently is that capitalism is a great idea in theory, but in practice it just doesn't work"

  14. The cleverest thing capitalists have done is to get people believing that capitalism is common sense and not the ideology it actually is.

  15. But then again, you know, capitalism advocates will argue that real, pure capitalism, the one which really would work and bring prosperity to all or at least the deserving, has never been implemented since politicians have always been too afraid to really let go of their authority over businessmen, thereby strangling those businessmen creative, prosperity-making energies. *sigh*

  16. colin spot on! Or that capitalism just 'is'. That makes me so angry. People who think it has always been and always will be.

  17. Morning all, looks like i missed out on a proper debate, will try and read back and enter the fray.

    Welcome to high highness, the Duke, also, is the Lord S aware of his new competition?

  18. ay ay colin - which is perhaps the reason why the 'Islington left' is the problem it is - when 'left' or liberal is driven by people who are always going to be basically OK, materially, there will be a tendency to concentrate on rather narrow issues, while not addressing the greatest source of inequality, because it is just taken for granted. it's like capitalism is the 'default set' for running things, such that the idea that there could be anything else comes as a surprise to people.

    hence the scary. because suggesting a socialist system therefore isn't seen as suggesting an 'alternative', but positing a direct attack on life itself...

  19. stoaty
    The cleverest thing capitalists have done is to get people believing that capitalism is common sense and not the ideology it actually is.

    and also managing to persuade them that work slavery is freedom, passing exams is education and culture is consumerism

  20. JayReilly

    Ah yes, Summerisle. A decent cove alright, I knew his Father well. His Father was an exquisite shot in the Rutlandshire Stag hunts (now sadly defunct thanks to ''Health and Safety''), so we have to shoot peasants now. They look hilarious wearing antlers, but they can't make up for the original.

    However between you and me, rumours abound on the hunting set that Summerisle may have a propensity towards Satanic rituals and Paganism. He's also cleared the shire out of wicker as well, so I have no idea what's going on.

    Anyway, if Summerisle wants to get together we can overthrow the 'Islington Left' and replace it with a new 'Brideshead left' or indeed 'Satanist-Bridesheadism'.

  21. 13th.

    LordS? fear him, Edward Woodward would.

    Though I doubt that you are a virgin, not with your reputation.

  22. I see from a piece in the Graun that Carter fuck are having another go at clamping down on info about that bastion of corrupt (allegedly) capitalist principles, Trafigura. they are saying that they believe the case to be sub judice which means the debate next Wednesday can't go ahead. The speaker has some discretion apparently and could allow it, so it'll be interesting to see which way he jumps

  23. Don't mean to change the subject, but check this shit out. Would especially like to hear Montana's opinion on it!

  24. Thats a beauty Thauma, especially liked the bit about the highbrow Guardian setting the intellectual tone for the UK - guess we're fucked then....

  25. Yes, that did make me giggle!

    I think in the conclusion the author's got the shoe on the wrong foot....

  26. thauma

    Oh not that old chestnut again! All Brits despise America even though they have saved our arses too many times to count - it's not fair!! We see this all the time on cif. Never read the christian Science Monitor - does it usually go in for this kind of windbaggery?

  27. I thought a 'Windsor Left' was a particularly complex way of tying a cravat.

    You live and learn.

  28. Sheff - actually the Monitor is one of the better papers in the US. It's fairly conservative but generally has good, in-depth reporting of things that don't get reported at all in most papers (i.e. foreign affairs).

    They've recently packed up the print edition and are now publishing on line only.

  29. Thaumaturge,
    I don't think we hate the Yanks, it's just that some of them scare the hell out of us.

  30. Jesus, anyone read the Liberia article ? It's beyond-words depressing.

  31. Interesting discussion on liberalism. I've always considered myself firmly in the liberal camp when it comes to one's personal life and one's privacy from the state, but I'm not in favour of unrestricted ecomonic liberalism. On that political compass thing, I come out as something like a libertarian socialist. Higher taxes spent on social projects rather than intrusive state databases, but less laws about smoking, booze and pornography.

  32. Charlie Brooker taking apart Jan Moir getting a lot of applause at the moment - am waiting for the first 'but she has a point' bigot to show up...

  33. I've only read the headline of that Jan Moir article. For the sake of my blood pressure I'm not going to read the rest of it.

  34. BW

    Read the Liberia piece - unutterably appalling and depressing. Can't find the words really. There are times when i really despair.


    Good to see Charlie B is ripping into that witch Moir with such gusto and getting a lot of support for doing so too.

  35. Hello all & welcome to the newcomers to the UT.

  36. cif is something else this evening - there's a piece just popped up about a Louisiana magistrate who won't marry mixed race couples. He says that although he's

    not a racist. I just don't believe in mixing the races that way,' Bardwell told the Associated Press on Thursday. 'I have piles and piles of black friends. They come to my home, I marry them, they use my bathroom. I treat them just like everyone else.'

    he's worried about any children they may have. Obviously not an Obama fan

  37. Jesus, Sheff - saw imogen referring to it earlier, but couldn't quite believe it. That's... the haters are really out at the minute, aren't they? Fortunately the lovers are getting their two-pennorth in as well...

  38. Evening all

    Just got in - not read anything yet, but Happy Birthday Gary Kemp! :o)

    I don't need this pressure on...

    I am kind of excited and nervous too cos it looks like I am going to be briefed on one of the Iraqi removals. As a result, I will prolly be working a lot over the weekend but it is worth it.

    I am doing it cut-rate - and I mean covering expenses alone - as I am so fucked off at what the government has done here. If it is safe to return people to Bagdad I anticipate seeing Phil Woolas there for Christmas with his wife and kids and no bodyguards...

  39. Already 900+ complaints to PCC about Moir's article. And M&S have pulled their advertising from the Mail's website.

    I think that maybe this time the paper has really fucked itself. And hopefully Moir is finished. What a shame!

  40. Righteous, BB, get in there...

    http://newsarse.com/2009/10/16/jan-moirs-career-to-die-of-perfectly-natural-causes/ for those wanting some light relief to get over the gag-reflex from the J** M*** piece.

  41. Excellent news, scherf! Justa caught up on all that. Evil witch indeed.

    Pip - ta. Bit nervous as this is gonna cause a huge stink.

  42. Evening all. Nice to see the Dook on here, big fan, your Grace. As was said upthread, we seem to be gathering quite an aristocratic clientele.

    However, noblesse oblige, um, obliges me to point out to the commoners amongst us that it's all too easy to get taken in by fake aristos (as Basil Fawlty will attest) and that there's only one poster with an authentic claim to a noble lineage. Ahem.

    Anyway, yes, um, you're all doing whatever it is that you do splendidly. Good show.

  43. Good on ya, BB, and good luck with that.

    I left work with a big smile on my face today, looking forward to seeing a tax specialist using some of his £700k annual income on barrister's fees soon (-:

  44. Hank - are you HMRC, by any chance?
    (as well as being of noble birth, natch)

  45. Just a small cog in the machine, but a well-oiled cog nevertheless, Philippa.

  46. Heheh

    Sound like good stuff Hank.

  47. heh heh, thought so from the UT2 thread.


    I'm on the other side...

  48. Hey, BB, if you take his case on the cab rank principle, don't agree to any kind of "no win, no fee" deal!

  49. There are lots of us small cogs Hank and if we all got together - we could make a very big cog indeed. And then...

  50. It's not "the other side", Philippa, it's the dark side.

    Serious question, how do you reconcile concerns about social justice and a general sympathy for the underdog with complicity in tax avoidance?

    Lord Denning once said that "the avoidance of tax may be legal but it is not moral".

    I'm aware of all the usual arguments that tax is used for bad things, ie military spending, or wasted thanks to the inefficiency of bureaucracy, but these arguments are generally self-serving bollix, since the type of people who are wealthy enough to use tax avoidance lawyers also tend to be in favour of military spending as a rule.

    Genuinely interested in your views and motivation...

  51. Hank

    I have already said I will do the court appearance for half the normal fee and paperwork free of charge in my own time. The only reason I am taking any fee at all is that I would be doing my clerks out of money for the day if I did it entirely for free.

    I just wish I could win the lottery so I could do it all for free and pay my clerks what would have been their percentage as well :o)

  52. Fair play to you, BB. Would like to hear more about the circs of the case, as far as sub judice will allow.

    But when I referred to the cab rank principle, I was talking about my tax guy rather than your new case!

  53. Hello all and cheers for the welcomes.

    Hank, I'm deeply disappointed you are calling into question my aristocratic background. I am 100% aristo after buying my title a couple of years ago from the website:


    Not sure who ran it, but there was a big red rose and a photo of a bloke with a shit eating grin.

    Anyway, not sure if you're all into football, but this made me chuckle, the worst football away end in the world:


  54. Jeez, Duke. The flan cage on TISWAS was bigger than that!

  55. "how do you reconcile concerns about social justice and a general sympathy for the underdog with complicity in tax avoidance?"
    Simple. I specialise in VAT (and some direct tax) advice to charities. So when advising clients, we're not trying to avoid tax, but to pay the right amount. To actually work out the liability of this, that or the other project funding, to work out if that new buildd gets zero-rating or not, to agree a recovery method that actually reflects what the charity does.

    Which is why I have my own issues with the avoidance practitioners, as charities tend to be 'innocent bystanders' to a lot of the ore complex areas where AA is put in in a hurry, so they get shafted. And that's largely, as you say, down to the clever gits coming up with schemes that mean loopholes get plugged with asbestos. Not every taxpayer is an avoider - some are just trying to work out what the hell they're supposed to be doing.

    So, I'll fight my corner with the Jedi, but only when, and to the point to, I consider my client's case to be just.

    My light sabre is purple, BTW.

    My initial motivation was several grand's worth of debt on leaving university, but I like to think I've knitted a little moral cap over that, twelve years on...

    Anyway - pub is calling. Have a good evening, everybody.

  56. LordS,

    I know, as I scrolled down I was half expecting to see Bob Carolgees and Lenny Henry throwing flans into the crowd.

  57. Oh LOLLers! BTH thinks he can make a complaint to the Bar Council about me for some fucked up reason known only to him.

    I can't wait to find out what he thinks it is he has to complain about. As far as I can tell, showing fuckwits up for being fuckwits on an internet forum is not in breach of any of the Bar Codes of Conduct.

  58. w00t!

    Didn't notice that His Grace was here! Welcome!
    *tugs forelock obsequiously*

  59. The best thing about that link to the footy ground is the comments underneath the photos. If football fans hate each other so much, what hope for Muslims with the EDL? :o)

  60. I'd like to complain about one of your members. Her name is Ms B. Burnout, I think her first name is Beautiful, parents were probably hippies ... errr, no I don't know where she lives but I wouldn't have thought she came from the underworld .... why are you laughing ... hello (click, click) hello ....

    Not very bright, is he?

  61. Understatement of the year, LordS. He is not very bright in the same way that Bella Emberg doesn't look much like Claudia Schiffer...

  62. @Philippa - fair do's, no problem with charities having tax advisers. As long as they are genuine charities obviously, and not charitable trusts whose objectives are the maintenance and education of the Chinley-fitz-Wunders children of course.

    @Duke - footer fans on here...That's pretty much me, actually. Forest, since you ask. Monkeyfish affects an interest in Everton, but that's really out of a misguided sense of duty, and Bru is our correspondent on the state of Belgian football. Oh, and Montana likes Bolton because Kevin Davies is a bit of a looker.

  63. Probably fair to include martillo as a football fan, since he actually took the time to write a piece on football fot Untrusted too.

  64. Blimey Hank, might have guessed you're the only true football fan too...

  65. Yep, sorry about that, martillo.

    Martillo's a West Ham fan, your grace.

    Bitterweed's a southern bloke with no real interest in the glorious game, so a Liverpool fan by default.

    And scherfig's a stroppy Irish bloke so, well, guess...

    And, since we're on the subject of Untrusted 2, scherf, I'm still waiting for your verdict on my tax haven exposay. I spent a full hour on Sunday getting my homework in when I could quite easily have been watching Murder She Wrote.

  66. Don't worry, martillo, our own interest in the beautiful game may be humble and ill-informed, but if it makes us happy, let's just soldier on. :o)

  67. And then there's the cricket fans, like swifty ... and thauma likes rugby, if I remember rightly, so plenty of sports fans round here.
    Except for me, of course!

  68. Hank, school holidays here - so pretty sporadic blog involvement for me all week. I'll take some time at the weekend to check out the article - I've only skim-read it so far, but it looks good.

  69. Hank, when in God's name are Forest going to get back into the top division again? They belong there.

    In my formative years watching football, it was a taken that Forest were up with the big boys. I used to keep an eye out for the Scots there, I used to like 'fat' John Robertson and Kenny Burns. Was there any centre half more terrifying than Burns in the late 70's/early 80s?

    And of course Clough. A solid gold, diamond encrusted, platinum lined legend.

    BB- all the best for the Iraqi case. Expect lots of disinformation and misreporting from our fifth column, sorry, media.

  70. I'm a long standing Arsenal supporter, born and raised just off the Caledonian Road.

    For historians with an interest in 'orrible murders, I was conceived in the very room where this dreadful incident took place.

    The Camden Town Murder

    Some 54 years AFTER it took place obviously, but the landlady who rented the rooms to my mum and dad was indeed the owner of the place at the time of the murder in 1907.

  71. Forgot to add I follow the first Northern European winners of the European cup, the once mighty Glasgow Celtic.

  72. Cricket fans, ms chin - yep swifty, jay and me. As for who stole your flower, you'll have to be a bit more specific in terms of dates before I start working on an alibi (-;

    @scherfig - "humble and ill-informed" - no, not you mate, definitely not. Well, maybe one of them (-;

  73. @Duke - Forest have a large fanbase from round your way, guess a lot of it's down to Robbo and Burns. Used to stand on the Trent End terrace with a lot of Jocks, and even in these more genteel times there are a lot of Scots who keep the faith at the CG.

    As for Cloughie, I'm conflicted but The Damned United was a cracking film.

    Forest will be back there soon, pretty confident about that. Happy with the manager, and the ambition of the board, and I'll be there tomorrow to see us giving the Geordie manic depressives another tale to tell their therapists.

    Fooking hate the Toon Army. Don't get me started on them. Check my blog www.hankhatesplackyfanswhothinkthatgeordiesinventedfootballandneverscabbedintheminersstrike.co.uk

  74. No. I like Bolton because I got to watch them weekly last season. It's just pure serendipity for me that Davies, Gardner, Elmander, Taylor, Jaaskelainen, Steinsson, Cahill, McCann and Cohen are all pretty decent eye candy.

    Of course, now that the channel that used to carry them has changed format and I can't watch them anymore, that fact does me no good. Now I'm in it for loyalty.

    Welcome, Wybourne. And welcome back, MattBelmer!

    Thauma -- that WSJ link was truly depressing. And ignorant. And infuriating. I'd love to write to the rat bastard and tell him what I think of him.

    In school today, I learned that other countries don't have public defenders and poor people can't get lawyers to defend them in court, that's why our justice system is better than everyone else's. Guess what kind of mood that little statement put me in.

  75. Montana
    It's amazing what you can learn in school about our wonderful advanced society. My friend's daughter, when aged 5, was told that African children don't have beds and live in mud huts. Being the child of a feminist, she was quick to ask about those children who lived in African cities ...

  76. Yeh, welcome back, MattBelmer. I had an idle half hour today in which I found the original UT thread and Matt was on there, so was good to see him appearing again today.

    Would be nice to see andysays back on here soon, also. If you're looking in, andy, call home.

    And pikey, allyF, bitethehand, and anyone else I might have forgotten in a Junior Choice kinda way.

    Oh blimey, I know I keep on linking to this song but it's just turned up again on the old shuffle thing and it's as good as ever...


  77. So it's not just Americans who are ignorant about Africa? At uni, I had a good friend from Zambia. She used to get really irritated with people asking her if they had electricity and cars and stuff like that.

  78. Well that's a bit disappointing. I stumble home half cut expecting a slanging match over last night's little anti-liberal diatribe only to find it went down OK. Better than OK even.

    What the fuck have you got to do around here to be controversial? Oh yeah..I remember...

    X Factor tomorrow...hope you'll all be tuning in.

  79. No, Montana - even the 'educated' people here are ignorant about life in Africa.

  80. MF
    Spare me the puppies ... I'll take X factor so long as I don't actually have to watch it! ;-)

    Junior Choice kinda way? LOL

  81. sheff
    If you're around, there's a short editorial piece on CiF called In praise of Kinder Scout.

  82. Wanna be controversial, MF, or anyone who's still got posting rights on Cif...

    Get over on the Waddya thread, tell Jess that, actually no, sweetheart, it shouldn't be a fucking social networking site. It's not a fucking social networking site, Jess. Got that? Fucking hell, how we laugh when we see your mates tell each other to put the kettle on..Ha ha ha.

    Likewise, it would be fucking great if you could explain to Cordelia that a meerkat avatar isn't an invisible shield protecting you from others who are sick and tired of treacly inanities, just as Imogen Black's tales of urolagnia shouldn't give her immunity when the talk policy is fucked over.

    Jeez, I cannot count the ways in which I hate the liberal hypocrisy of the Guardian.

    Fuck em anyway, they're gonna be fucked soon. Along with the rest of us. It would have been nice if they'd made a stand for those of us who had no voice, but at least I'll know who to count on in the future.

  83. And just for good measure, if anyone still has posting rights and wants to lose them, tell Jess that it stinks to high heaven that they pretend to listen to the voices on Waddya while ignoring the constant and recurring calls for an amnesty for banned posters.

    Close your ears, kiz, you won't like this...

    I fucking hate liberal bourgeois hypocrites. Especially those who welcome BNP supporters, the guys who up the page hits and broaden the consumer demographic, while banning leftie troublemakers who can see right through their fucking hypocrisy.

    Christ, I fucking hate the idea of being "nice". It's the secret weapon of middle class bastards who are anything but nice when it comes to dealing with those outside their circle.

  84. Hey Hank, ya big fucking loon, just because you're right it doesn't mean anyone's listening... you should know that. As you well know, it's a fucking illusion and a waste of space.


  85. Montana on Waddya at 11.26pm..ok, gotcha. It was always difficult knowing what the party line was when there was an open line and a secure line, but I think I've got the message now.

    Fuck it, I'm tired of who's in and who's out, so I'm out. Again.

  86. Also this...

  87. Hank

    Why bother?...'you can go back..but you can never go home'.

    See even if they let you back..exactly how long would you last?

  88. Anyway..Jimmy Ruffin's on Jools

  89. And, Hank, chuck me one while you're at it, please?

  90. how do monkeyfish
    Rufin ? How about Jackie Opel - Fly Me To The Moon:

    Gobsmacking !

  91. BW and Hank..welcome 'home'

    Now we're talkin..


  92. This comment has been removed by the author.

  93. BW -- That's a distinct possibility.

  94. Nice one fishmeister
    Let's get fucked up !

  95. BW

    Yeah..think that's a plan. Spliff and bed for me though. looks like Hank took a wrong turn on the Road to Wigan Casino tonight. Poor cunt's reached the stage where he's gotta point at the emperor and shout 'you've got no clothes on ya daft cunt'. He's just too pissed to spot the delicate finery draped around his imperial majesty's bloated arse...silly twat...can't he see what an elegant, swellegant set of duds the Graun's been wearing lately?

    I mean, personally..I also just see a big fat naked fuck-up, but I'm willing to believe that's just my lack of sartorial savvy.

  96. "...looks like Hank took a wrong turn on the Road to Wigan Casino"


    Keep in touch, MF.

  97. Bed ??!!!!


    Speaking of sartorial savvy, here's some total shite I happen to quite like


  98. Just popped in and find, to my horror, that you fuckers are more pissed than I am. Disgraceful.

  99. colin, indeed, but check this out !
    Beautiful sounds, stoatmeister, beautiful sounds...


  100. Bitters,
    I will look at it tomorrow mate. Goodnight.