22 October 2009

Daily Chat 22/10/09


In 1383, a two year-long civil war was sparked in Portugal when King Fernando died with no male heir.  André-Jacques Garnerin made the world's first recorded parachute descent in the Parc Monceau in 1797.  Sam Houston became the first president of the Republic of Texas in 1836.  The Cuban Missile Crisis began in 1962, when President John F. Kennedy announced that surveillance planes had found Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba.

Born today:  Franz Liszt (1811-1886), Doris Lessing (1919), Bobby Seale (1936), Derek Jacobi (1938), Catherine Deneuve (1943), Arsène Wenger (1949) and Jeff Goldblum (1952).

The Syriac Orthodox Church will be observing the feast of Aaron the Illustrious today.

222 comments:

  1. Scherfig - ta for the clip of macshane! oh deary me...

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  2. For those who wondered where I impersonated a feminist yesterday: It was on this thread.

    The "male penis" is a favourite phrase of mine (when posting in feminist mode) *because* the adjective is so absolutely redundant.

    And now another feminist I had a really nice chat with (about a DVD she recommended and the ways to get it in Europe compared to the USA) also agreed with me; damn!

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  3. OK - some chap on Today arguing for removing not only child benefit, but also stat maternity pay and the state pension from people who 'have money' (earnings > £15k pa, or £40k pa for a couple with two kids - interviewer has pointed out that if the woman becomes pregnant, under his system you'd then have to cross out her income - he doesn't seem to think that matters).

    Given the largely left-of-centre views expressed on here, what do we think of that?

    I'll start with "£15k? What planet does this guy live on if he thinks that's 'middle class'?", before moving on to consider it a flawed principle even if the banding was less ridiculous. Mainly on practical grounds. Whereas higher tax bands and rates would be simpler and fairer, think.

    Anyone? About to have electric cut off (again - damn these travaux)...

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  4. PhilippaB
    The interview was about a report from some think tank called Reform. When your power is restored (sounds very super hero, that does!), you can read the report here:
    http://www.reform.co.uk/Research/ResearchArticles/tabid/82/smid/378/ArticleID/1011/reftab/56/t/The%20end%20of%20entitlement/Default.aspx

    I haven't read it yet - work to do - but it appears to include the pensioners' winter fuel allowance as a middle class benefit, too.

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  5. MsChin - thanks - missed the intro to the piece so don't know who the chap was. Nobody's bothered to cut me off yet but I don't want to risk having a shower, on the old 'Sod's Law' principle...

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  6. I'd be willing to listen to proposals of that nature, but £15K is ridiculously low.

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  7. Philippa - interesting will have a read of Ms Chins post.

    For what it is worth I do not think the state pension should be stopped - even for those on a fairly good income. If it was it would have to be only for the seriously well off as it is very hard to save any sort of pension - unless you are in a defined benefits scheme even on a relatively good salary. However it does anger me when I see my friend (my right wing Mail reading benefits scrounger bashing friend) whose husband earns over 150k taking her child benefit every month. The hypocricy is breath taking.

    But I would rather see Trident go before benefits were cut and maybe once we start going down this road (even if we can all see the ridiculousness of Fred Goodwin getting a state pension) then we just play into their hands for cutting more and more of the welfare state?

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  8. I was going to have a few days off - but I have to post that Deborah Orr has two timely and interesting pieces today over on the Guard.

    I'm finding the lady an ever more interesting read each time I come across her.

    Useful addition to the UTt piece by Hank - from Hank yesterday.

    Phillippa - I shower on a kettle of hot water mixed in a bucket of cold and thrown over my head by a small cup - have you not heard the world is changing...

    Regards to all.

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  9. Glad to see you back around PCC - hope you are feeling well(er).

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  10. deano
    That's called a prison shower, mate! But agree, it works very well.

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  11. deano - indeed, I think Deb is coming up with some good stuff - it was actually her up against Reform chappy on Today today - and she was also challenging the £15k thing...

    princess - ay, and I really don't understand how the SMP thing would work - I mean, presumably the employer would have to pay both 'rich' and 'poor' employees the same during maternity leave, so if they didn't get the SMP for the 'rich' one, they'd be out of pocket, not the woman. so even if you agree that the principle holds (which I don't - tax! tax! tax is the way to redress income inequalities and provide funding for a decent public sector), the practicalities seem a bit confused...

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  12. MsChin - took a look at your link.

    Call me biased but when I saw:

    "The respected Reform think-tank"
    Trevor Kavanagh, The Sun, 20 March 2006


    as a recommendation I thought not me...

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  13. Yes, good articles from Milne and Orr.

    Will have a looky at Watson's naughtiness in a mo....

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  14. e.w.
    I think that most of the 'women' on here are, like you, little old blokes getting in touch with their feminine side. Which is why I resist their attempts at grooming.

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  15. I may *be* a little old bloke, but still I sometimes have to show my id when buying DVDs which are not suited for under 16 year olds.

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  16. Damn, I've been outed by a Stoat.

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  17. 'Damn, I've been outed by a Stoat.'

    Aye it was weasily done [groans sorry]

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  18. Is it me or is cif broken again?

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  19. As a passing aside, having seen him on Newsnight and his weasely bit of spin on the Graun today, I think i actually find MacShane even more repugnant than Mandelson.

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  20. thaum,
    Yep, you can't fool me sonny.

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  21. 'Scuse me while I scratch my arse and belch.

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  22. I just mentioned your name on the Doyle thread, Thaum, and found myself hearing the "let-me-tell-you etc et" even without your avatar there, still makes me chuckle.

    If there is an open thread for best "thinking behind an avatar" I am confident you'll be on the podium.

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  23. Thanks Jay - I'll have a wander over.

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  24. Re; the Question Time er, situation, apparently the BBC is having trouble keeping some of the protesters out of the beeb building ...

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  25. What time is Question Time, and can it be watched live on iPlayer, or do you have to wait for it to be posted?

    Telephobe is not knowing....

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  26. thauma
    10.35 (I think) on BBC1, and yes can prob watch it live - but I'll go check.

    You can see the protesters outside the BBC live here:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/video_and_audio/news_channel_live/7459669.stm

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  27. Oh my god, that's way past my bedtime! I'll just have to read about it in the morning.

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  28. Know what you mean, thaum, but think I'll stay up anyway despite needing to be up at crack of sparrows tomorrow.

    I imagine it'll be on iplayer ... although Mr Griffin is now saying that he doesn't think he'll be able to get into the TV centre, 'cos of the volume of protesters.

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  29. Ah, correction, NG has survived the baying crowd and made his way inside.

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  30. Msc

    I read in the graun earlier that griffin wanted to take a helicopter to the Beeb - but pparently they don't have a helipad. Looks like he's not prepared to run the gauntlet of the protesters - so he may not appear.

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  31. It would have to be a big fucking helicopter to bear him safely.

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  32. Blimey
    Those protestors don't seem very happy. Better not tell them about BBC3's schedule for tonight:

    8.00 pm Kiss, Marry or Exterminate
    8.30 pm At Home With the Mengeles
    9.00 pm The World's Strictest Camp Kommandant
    10.00 pm The Vinyl Solution - (Nazi Memorabilia Panel Game)
    10.30 pm News
    10.31 pm Cash in the Alps
    11.00 pm Close

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  33. Apologies to anyone not sick of hearing about this sorry little pantomime, but QT's aload of fuckwitted shit at the best of times, and adding this goggle eyed rapist of the truth hardly lowers its ethics/intellect bar one bit.

    (Oh, for the record I hope he gets bitten by a rat and develops arse cancer.)

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  34. Boo, don't get iplayer. The BBC website carried its euro-elections coverage live, which I could access, but I don't suppose they'll do it for this. Wonder if anyone will be streaming it...

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  35. Evening my little chipmunks.

    Haven't had time to read everything yet. biab

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  36. MsChin - thanks for the link (I think). What a vile creature.

    Philippa, I reckon it'll be shown on the link MsC posted above, but I could be wrong. It's certainly all Nick Griffin all the time at the mo.

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  37. FlippaB (do you mind if I call you flippa ?)

    Live stream of Question Time here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/default.stm

    Assuming their server doesn't fall over...

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  38. Hank

    Just caught your post from last night. You're getting a bit intolerant in your old age matey. This is still a democracy, Hank. Muslim women have an inalienable right to wear whatever they're fuckin well told to.

    And...anyway, the niqab is a political statement. It says "I respond to your aggression and inhumanity by repressing myself".

    Always wondered why the Left never tried it. Surely what the postal workers should do is agree to longer hours and a 25% pay cut just to show the management how bloody angry they are? In fact, when I get the push, I'm gonna tell them just where to shove their fuckin redundancy...only language the fuckers understand.

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  39. ah, BellaM has just suggested 'bigotry bingo' for QT. Her suggestions:
    Indigenous, race replacement, our values, national pride, full up
    My suggestions:
    Folk, decent, heritage, white, culture, duck-houses, our brave soldiers, and (if we're really lucky and somebody gets him riled) Lebensraum.

    Anybody else?

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  40. Fanks BW ... I shall strive to stay up that late but it's doubtful!

    MF - indeed, I personally have taken to wearing chains to express my freedom.

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  41. Thanks mschin and bitterweed for the link - may have to pop out for wine after the news...

    dolphingirl

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  42. MF
    Yeh, and I'm going to cut my cock off right in front of my HR manager. (He's called Raffa)

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  43. Philippa, no TV streaming as far as I know, but there's a post-QT radio phone-in on 5Live tonight. Unfortunately, it's that smarmy dipstick Richard Bacon, which doesn't bode well, but it might be of interest to you anyway.

    link

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  44. bitterweed, that's UK only. No BBC iplayer TV outside the UK - radio only (and not even all of that.) They've been saying since iplayer started that TV would eventually be available outside the UK, but nothing yet. I think you guys should pay a higher license fee :o)

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  45. scherfig - iplayer doesn't work over here (france) but if it's embedded in the actual programme page, I think that might work - it did for the euro elections.

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  46. scherfig
    Considering how much people pay for Sky I wouldn't disupte that... (Please don't tell ANYONE I said that)

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  47. Can you not get iplayer radio, Philippa?

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  48. "although Mr Griffin is now saying that he doesn't think he'll be able to get into the TV centre, 'cos of the volume of protesters."

    Fuck, yeah! \o/

    Although the Beeb have a "plan B" - they have emergency provisions for another studio. They should be recording it now, as it goes, instead of starting it an hour before it goes out semi-live, because they want to be able to edit out any trouble.

    I wonder how much of my licence fee is being spent on making sure a one-eyed fat little fascist gets his day in the lime-light?

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  49. bitterweed, they're real clever over here. £270 a year for a 'media license'. If you've got internet, then you pay the license on the basis that you might watch Danish TV on t'internet. Bastards.

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  50. Lovely - just overheard on BBC news feed: "Nick Griffin is Roderick Spode; he is not Adolf Hitler."

    Wasn't someone making that point around here or on Cif the other day?

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  51. Thauma, did any of Roderick Spode's bodyguards have cool skin-tight black leather gloves like one of Griffin's short-haired minders?

    BBC

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  52. scherfig - oh, I get radio. I wouldn't still be here if I couldn't get radio4. I am, indeed, turning into my mother. apart from the archers. can't stand the bloody archers.

    French TV licence €118. Given that I have to follow 'les experts Miami' with a bilingual dictionary and a puzzled expression, I'm not sure if that's good value or not...

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  53. "cool skin-tight black leather gloves"

    ew.

    Mind you, £10 for the first photographer to get him with his fist in the air
    http://singaporesportsfan.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/black-power-salute.jpg

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  54. Scherfig - yeah, they had the minders on a while ago. Fairly sure Spode didn't have any, but then he didn't know about Aunt Dahlia....

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  55. Scherfig
    Blimey ! Done like a kipper

    I still think it might have a live stream as opposed to i-player - I'm sure I've done that before, watched QT on the laptop while I've fired off random abuse at CiF, no i-player involved...

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  56. Masterly, MF. A thousand microchips did not die in vain. Can I book you for my next performance appraisal?

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  57. Hank - on the niqab/burqa issue: I must admit I've never actually come across anyone wearing one, but I think it would be very disconcerting. Without giving it a lot of thought, I quite liked the rest of Younge's piece, but do not agree that we should just pretend that wearing a tent is a good choice - or even a choice at all, really.

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  58. I'll check it out, bitterweed, but I'm not hopeful.
    btw - first time posters on the QT blog are having a hard time from the mods. Can't imagine why. My faves - janice77 - 5 comments, 4 deleted; PatriciaWarwick - 7 comments, 6 deleted. That's quality stuff - I wonder if their local Gauleiter bothered to tell them that there might be a subtle difference between what is applauded on the BNP website and what is acceptable on the Guardian.

    Freedom of speech, mate, innit. You commie fuck.

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  59. Hmmm I know a Patricia in Warwick. Can't see her being a BNP supporter though.

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  60. Good pieces from Orr and Younge today...

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  61. scherfig - just popped over to have a look. is the use of caps-lock just 'green ink' for the internet generation? discuss...

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  62. I had a good rant going about the niqab issue in a comment box on the Younge thread and then decided not to bother posting it.

    Dunno if it makes me racist, but I'm absolutely opposed to them. I'll elaborate if anyone cares.

    (Home with a nasty drug-ignoring headache today.)

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  63. Bless, Montana - tried wine?
    it may not actually help, but it feels like it does...

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  64. thauma

    There are niqab wearers in my neighbourhood although the numbers are small, mostly young mothers. I think most of them are from the Yemen round here.

    Whether they are wearing them voluntarily or under coercion is impossible to tell as they are very difficult to get to know. Other Muslim women I know rather despise niqabs as unnecessarily ostentatious displays of piety and subjection.

    But one niqab wearer I do know does it as an act of political defiance and says she feels freer with it on (free from the male 'gaze'). Haven't seen her for a while as I offended her husband by not dropping everything to deal with some problem he had and he revealed a side to himself that was very unpleasant, so she may well be right under the patriarchal thumb.

    It interests me that whilst they are universally swathed in black from head to toe their husbands generally seem to prefer strolling about in jeans t/shirts, leather jackets etc rather than their traditional garb.

    On the whole its mainly the hijab and long skirts - although there are notable exceptions amongst some of the young single women who are very glam and don't conform.

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  65. Oh my god...

    While idly clicking on a few posters' profiles in the BNP minute-by-minute to spot the newbies (my new game while waiting for bigotry bingo to start), I found one who actually has a long profile, which including commenting on

    what my period means to me

    Oh my sweet word...

    I mean, I thought CIF was weird, but clearly they hide the really strange stuff in the 'life and style' section.

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  66. I wonder if there are many single Muslim women who don't live their family who wear a niqab...for religious reasons or indeed as an 'act of defiance'? I've got £20 that says the numbers don't exceed the number of black BNP members.

    I'm up at 5 tomorrow. Bed early. Been messing about trying to set the timer for QT. I'll probably sit down tomorrow night to have a look and be faced with the Albanian Croquet Championship or a documentary about fruitbats. My success rate with that video is about 20%.

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  67. Thauma - Gary Younge's an excellent writer imo, one of the best on the Graun and there was a lot in his column I agreed with but niqabs? Nah. Like Montana, I don't care whether that's a racist thing to say.

    And yep, sheff, I've read one or two comments on cif from burqa wearers who feel liberated by them. False consciousness we used to call it!

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  68. Now, Philippa, after what I wrote yesterday, I just have to do *that* joke:

    So, you found my newest profile *happily grin* How do you like it?

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  69. PhilippaB
    Eh ? What's the url you're looking at ???

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  70. I used to work with a girl years ago in a legal advice centre who, after about 3 years of marriage and non-hijab wearing, suddenly decided that she felt it was "right" to start doing it. I asked her why and she said she felt it was a sign of respect but I am not quite sure what she meant by that.

    I wonder if it can be equated to married women in mediterranean countries wearing black after a certain age, like they used to do in portugal and spain and such?

    I met a woman with her husband the other day who is 29 and has lived in this country since the age of 3, is a primary school teacher and she wears a niqab. It was a bit disconcerting talking to her to begin with because you can't see if she is smiling, can only pick up on the movements of the eyes. But she certainly didn't seem to be opressed in any way - her english was perfect, she was quite forceful in her character, and certainly didn't seem to be subservient to the husband.

    I honestly don't know what to make of it, frankly.

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  71. The comparison that is often made between burqa-wearers and stupid-high-heel-wearers is actually an interesting one. Both are very uncomfortable and unhealthy, and both reflect a conformity to the ideal of women in one's social milieu. Discuss.

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  72. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  73. So what about a burqua wearer in high heels? Seriously. I see them regularly.
    Are they just very mixed up? Or total masochists?

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  74. ....Are we talking the full face thingy or that headscarf (like "devout hottie" Soumaya Ghanoush used to wear in her irksome Cif avatar)

    There's loads of difference. If you can't see someones face (lots of this where I live), it's a declaration they are prohibited to communicate with strangers, which is sick and it wants to stop.

    If it's just a head scarf, who cares ?

    Discuss...

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  75. MF - lol - 'total masochists' must describe it!

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  76. BB, it might not be a stretch to imagine that the woman you met the other day was not typical of most women who wear the niqab. More of an exception, I would have thought, although maybe that's just racism on my part? Does she wear her niquab when she's teaching primary school kids?

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  77. BW - I'm talking about the garb that leaves only the eyes visible or the one that even has a mesh over the eyes.

    Headscarves don't bother me much. I see quite a few women who dress in fairly normal Western fashion but with headscarves - no problem. There's one woman at work who wears shapeless garb that completely covers everything but her face is fully visible - slightly disconcerting, but OK as you can see facial expressions. Nun-like, really. (Interestingly, she appears to be of African and not Arab descent.)

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  78. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  79. #Does she wear her niquab when she's teaching primary school kids?#

    Well if it's 'racist' to state "I fuckin well hope not and it shouldn't be allowed"...call me a racist. Surely not?

    Young kids need eye contact and facial expressions far more than they need diversity awareness I'm afraid.

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  80. "BW - I'm talking about the garb that leaves only the eyes visible or the one that even has a mesh over the eyes."

    Yep, that's the feller. Absolutely cut off from others, making only the subtlest forms of contact and communication without both parties making a super-attentive effort. Isolated then, in most normal social contexts. A statement that says "my familly's conventions and traditions mean I don't want any conversation with you".

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  81. Ahhh, they're leaking some of the QT details at the mo....

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  82. monkeyfish, can't be too careful these days. Liberals are everywhere. But think of the children!

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  83. Tim Black nails it for me here...

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/printable/7604/

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  84. BW - the hijab is the headscarf and the niqab is the full-face one, as far as I know - might be wrong though.

    scherf - well, it is possible. On the other hand it could be possible that we all assume that just because they adopt traditional dress that they are oppressed. It might well be that they don't want men gawping at them - and although it is not quite the same, nuns cover up in almost the same way, don't they?

    It makes sense to cover up like that in places like saudi because they create a sort of "halo" of sweat - which sounds utterly disgusting - but that actually keeps people cool in the heat. It was a british diplomat woman who told me that years ago - she had been posted to saudi and, although she didnt have the full face business going on, as a Brit she said she ended up wearing the long black dress and head scarf to keep the sun off.

    I wonder how many Brits actually do that? Very few I would imagine (although for western women in Saudi you have to cover your arms and you can't wear mini-skirts and low cut tops and such, but I bet most british women going to pakistan would wear normal clothes). So I really can't see what the fuss is about - if that is how people want to dress that is up to them.

    I have no idea if she wears the niqab in her primary school or not, but if I meet her again I'll ask her. She was a really nice woman.

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  85. Further thoughts on headscarves: as someone else pointed out, many of our grannies wore them. However, their purpose for wearing them was to keep their hair clean and unmessed by whatever they were doing, rather than as a sign of feminine modesty in case men went mad at the sight of hair.

    Still, I look upon them as an eccentric affectation much like turbans or tattoos. Very different from hiding the whole body and face.

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  86. Hehehe - I saw a woman on the bus yesterday, I was going to victoria, she was going to chelsea. Tweeds, brogues and a headscarf! My mum used to wear headscarves quite a lot too in the 60s and 70s. It was the thing to do in those days.

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  87. 'It could be possible that we all assume that just because they adopt traditional dress that they are oppressed.'

    I don't assume that, never have. That's not the issue anyway. And the old nun comparison is not very useful - the old nuns' garb never covered the face, and most nuns today wear ordinary clothes.

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  88. MF - I seriously dunno if she wears the niqab in front of the kids or not.

    I seem to remember that it had to be worn if you were going to be seen by "strange" men - I don't know whether little boys would be included in that or not. If indeed it is actually true and not just something I am "mis-remembering", Hillz stylee...

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  89. Graun's drip feed on the QT show says Mr Griffin has now left the building to be whisked away in a Citroen. A fucking frog car? Splitter.

    Yeh, no problem with headscarves, but the burqa is dehumanising.

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  90. Hi lads,
    you know I still can't decide whether it's a good, bad or neutral thing that bnp-man is on QT.
    I've read most of the Graun's articles and all that seems certain to me is that the bnp have a tiny voter & support base and are desperate for publicity. That and they've got the wrong name, it should be the White and Angry party

    What I'm not reading about is the background to QT issuing the invite. All the talk of censorship.. well Griffin has had interviews etc and his voice wasn't spoken by an actor.
    All this talk of "banning Griffin's appearance", "right to free speech in a democracy" etc... fine, it's difficult to argue against democratic principles (except that the bnp is an exclusionist party).
    But...
    What if QT had simply not issued the invite? There would have ben no fuss at all. If the bnp started making 'martyr' milage out of not being on tv then they could have been offered a Newsnight interview. I've never heard about "why haven't we been invited onto QT?" complaints from any quarter.

    Anyway, I'll watch it later but I bet it'll be a damp squib. Any decent abuse, heckling or stage attacks will have been edited out.
    It's not even a programme I usually watch and now I feel obliged... any one else feel manipulated by all this hand-wringing?

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  91. She was going to Chelsea, BB? Jeez, they'll buy anyone these days.

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  92. Bitterweed
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/02/period-menstruation
    Really quite unnerving...I mean, hear me roar, and everything, but...anyway

    elementary - you bad bad man...
    [chuckle]

    Have to admit, the prevalence of hair-based rules for women in a variety of religions has always confused me a bit. That's orthodox jewish wigs, plymouth brethren kerchiefs, amish bonnets, old-fashioned-christian hats in church, strict sikh turbans (women too), as well as the wide range of muslim head-coverings.

    What's so offensive to the Lord / Yahweh / Allah / whoever about hair for heaven's sake?

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  93. LOL Hank :o)

    LeDingue

    I am a pretty ardent anti-fash so the only time I would really want to see Griffin on tv is a photo of him while they announce his unfortunate demise after being poisoned by a dodgy curry.

    I really don't know what the agenda is, although I have my suspicions that it is all about divide and rule - setting one sector of the working class at the throat of the other - to distract us from the bigger picture.

    Just my 2 penn'orth...

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  94. Gotta be better than Ivanovic. Cheaper too.

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  95. MF - yes, good article.

    LeDingue - if Griffin had the reputed charisma of Hitler, I'd worry. However, things being as they are, I don't expect the BNP will attract many followers. The Beeb has so far done a fine job of airing the protesters' concerns and giving them full voice. So far Griffin just looks like the buffoon he is.

    The early reports (extracts in the next few minutes) are that Griffin got a good pasting.

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  96. BB - my understanding is that the veil (in whatever form) is only appropriate when you are around adult males not of your immediate family. So when teaching kids, it would be taken off. But there was a case fairly recently where a woman wouldn't take it off in class because she couldn't guarantee not being seen by a male colleague - I think?

    Anyway - Griffin's bottled it? Or - more pleasingly - has somebody bottled Griffin?

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  97. Oh here we go - extracts about to start - see MsChin's link upthread.

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  98. Jack Straw not exactly coherent....

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  99. I'm actually one of those people who is extremely uncomfortable if I can't see someone's face when I'm talking to them. Yes, this includes talking on the phone. I'll go to great lengths to avoid phoning businesses or even calling to make an appointment at the doctor's, just because of using the phone. If I'm speaking to someone in a darkish room and there's a window behind them, so that I only see them in silhouette, I have to reposition myself so that I can see their face. So, trying to talk to someone who's covered from head to toe would be really stressful for me.

    Besides, it's not actually a requirement of Islam, so it really isn't a matter of being intolerant of Muslim beliefs. When I went to Pakistan, I wore long sleeves and loose-fitting trousers. Shorts and t-shirts would have been disrespectful and inappropriate in their culture, even though they're perfectly acceptable in mine. If I lived in Pakistan, I'd wear salwar kameez and a dupatta all the time (they're actually far more comfortable and elegant-looking than Western clothes, if you ask me...). In Western culture, covering your face in public is not a normal practise and isn't acceptable from most people. I see no reason why a small number of Muslim women should be excepted from that cultural norm.

    As for the argument that it's their choice -- bollocks. The women in those polygamist compounds in Utah, New Mexico and Texas will tell you that it is their choice to be one of eight wives. It's all they've ever known and they've been inculcated with the idea that the outside world is a scary and godless place since they were born. Hardly makes it a free choice.

    Stockholm Syndrome comes to mind with BB's first example.

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  100. Bollocks... my link keeps buffering. will have to watch tellybox later.

    Fight the Power people !

    PS Hank
    Do think Chelsea would like a new manager ? Spanish, various trophies, now fucked ?

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  101. BB
    I think I'd have to go along with you there.

    After seeing Mandelson grinning on the news about the postal workers aaaargh! what doesn't he get about being upset about fewer workers working harder under more controlled conditions? What does he want? The suicides like at France Telecom?
    £70 a day a postie gets... Mandy's daily make up certainly costs more than that (he was a bit "orange" when he came out to greet the cameras).

    I think New Lab is so far gone to merely representing business and wealth that they're certainly non-plussed about poverty, sink estates, the narcotics epidemic, mass semi-literacy, multi-generational unemployment etc.

    Anyway, the Bill is on...

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  102. Le Dingue

    I haven't watched QT for years but will make an exception tonight. I actually think the BBC were right to give him a platform, partly because it will silence the paranoid rantings of his followers who claim that they are being persecuted, and partly on the "give em enough rope" principle.

    I would have preferred a one-hour interview of him alone by Paxo though. Or Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction righteous fury mode.

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  103. Hehehe - I love the way Griffin always gets the "Cherie Blair" treatment when it comes to photos. They always manage to post photos of him where he most resembles a pig. :o)

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  104. I feel your pain, BW.

    Or I will when I stop laughing. He's been rubbish ever since he grew that goatee.

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  105. I once ranted about the niqab on one of Riazat Butt's stranger pieces, this one about her sister wearing the full bin liner. I argued that the niqab was surely un-Islamic, as Islam is supposed to cohere with nature, and all mammals learn to grow by reading facial expressions - a woman who denies children the right to 'read' her face is being profoundly unnnatural.

    'Scuse me while I scratch my arse and belch.'

    What's my ex-girlfriend doing here?

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  106. Well, Griffin a bit more savvy than I expected but still got a right bollocking as far as I can see.

    Montana - I hate the phone to the point of mild phobia. Quite likely because I can't see people's expressions, although that hasn't occurred to me before.

    LeDingue - don't bring up Mandy when we've got Griffin to hate at the moment - it's overload!

    ===> Go the posties <===

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  107. thaum,
    I'm still gnawed at by a little voice reminding me that "all publicity is good publicity"
    Also, like BB, I can't help feeling that all this kerfuffle is great distraction for the Gov. while they get on with asset stripping Royal Mail for their rich pals...

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  108. I am thinking of putting up an "I support my postie" sign in my front window. :o)

    Any of you lot any good at graphic design? I am shite, but a neat little poster in pdf format for free download would be a good idea if you ask me.

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  109. BB -- one with Postman Pat on it!

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  110. Chris Hulne currently making the point that the UKIP and Greens have been afforded a voice once they'd reached a current threshold of representation, LeDingue.

    You may be right about the distraction but I think it's best to expose these things. He was asked whether he thought the gas chambers existedand just waffled. Can't think that anyone who isn't already a racist will be convinced by this performance, and hopefully some current supporters will be repelled.

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  111. Oooh Hulne now rocking about change in electoral system.

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  112. Good idea, Montana!

    Thaum - I am gonna wait an hour and watch it in glorious technicolour on me telly instead of straining to hear it on the crap speakers on my netbook.

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  113. BB - am crap at graphic design. Can't imagine I can stay awake until actual programme broadcast, so am quite happy they've given us some snippets.

    Montana - phones, mothers - they're all evil. Hm, could there be a connection there?

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  114. Am confused - have the QT site open for the 'live' broadcast in an hour - where are these clips coming from?

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  115. Philippa - they are coming from the Beeb news site

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  116. Here, Philippa:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7459669.stm

    Also on Sky, I believe

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  117. Pig

    "Did you deny the Holocaust?"

    "I did not have a conviction for denying the Holocaust."

    ~ "Stop smirking, sir, this is not funny."

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  118. Ace choonage, Hank!

    I prefer the bard's version though

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  119. Hahahaha!

    According to the Beeb headline, Griffin is now whining about being "demonised". LOL. Nothing to do with him being a complete numpty, then.

    He is such a tosser.

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  120. Le Dingue
    Haven't met before, hi there. Well put about asset stripping & post office, but others are right - no Mandy tonight, too much for the old blood pressure.

    Hank
    Thanks yer git ! And you're right about Raffa & the beard. Looks like a pervy monk out of the name of the Rose...

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  121. How the fuck can anyone waffle about the existence of the gas chambers? Yes, I know. But, jeebus, even if the fuckwit truly doesn't think they existed, he's not even intelligent enough to lie, knowing that most people do believe that they were real?

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  122. Check MsChin's live link, Montana - they're replaying the snippets regularly.

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  123. Cheers, BB. And yep, the Braggster abides.

    This is my Dad's favourite song and one which informed his political opinions. And therefore represents a big "fuck off" to all those on Cif who reckon that the BNP represent the WWC...


    ladyday

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  124. Aw man. Clicked on the link then shut it down, Hank. That song always makes me cry and I don't want to blub tonight. Sniff.

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  125. Philippa - try this

    Bloody racism, mschin! Your link 'not available in your territory'. I blame Griffin, and by logical extension, NewLabour.

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  126. Hank
    One of the finest songs ever, by a very fine lady.

    scherf
    Ooops. Sorry!

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  127. I am with BB re QT - will wait for the tele to fire up and watch the dickhead hopefully make a complete arse of himself.

    Re the niqab - I am with Hank, Montana and Monkeyfish on this. I find it very disturbing. Stockholm Syndrome is bang on as far as I can see. What really, really gets my goat is the disgusting sexism involved - as if women are somehow so dirty or so sexual or so pure or what-fucking-ever that they need to be covered from prying male eyes.

    And all these women who go on about feeling free from the male gaze - don't they realise that in a way being so totally covered up is weirdly pornographic. As if they are so sexual, so beautiful, so totally desirable that any man will be overwhelmed with some sort of mad rapist urge if he sees them!

    I was at the hospital a couple of months ago and saw a lady in what looked like a niqab but it did not even have the slits for her eyes - she was totally shrouded in black and was being led about by a man. It really shocked me.

    Finally I have two female Muslim friends - both of whom are disturbed by this trend. their families came here to escape this sort of stuff - they do not want to start to feel pressured to cover up and to dress in this way.

    Re the high heels thing. I just dont think it is the same. Women can choose not to wear heels and many do. I have female friends who live in jeans and trainers and never wear make up then I have friends who wear glam clothes and high shoes every day - their choice. And by wearing high heels women are not implicitly saying that there is something 'wrong' or inflamatory about their very bloody presence on this earth.

    Anyway sorry for the long rant but it gets me mad.

    Deano -I might be in Harrogate next week - I will look at the Stray and think of you!

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  128. Thanks thauma, but really, Hank will suffice. Never been one for titles or excessive subservience, despite my lineage. Have I mentioned that my Grandad was Baron Mountevans of Chelsea btw?

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  129. Montana - scary thing is after seeing some of the downright terrifying comments on both the BNP and the Tories-cozying-up-to-Euro-Fascists threads, I think there are quite a few people coming out of the woodwork to say that maybe the holocaust was not 'as bad' as we are all 'led to believe'. It absolutely beggars belief. Nasty times.

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  130. @pcc - "I have friends who live in jeans and trainers..."

    Blimey, I'd heard that there was a housing shortage in Sheffield, princess, but I never realised it was that bad.

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  131. Princess - I take your point about the high heels being voluntary, but where women say they are voluntarily wearing the burqa - it's a fairly close parallel, I think! I'm not sure that women who wear them aren't thinking that there isn't something wrong or inflammatory about their bodies. Not consciously, but I don't suppose women who "choose" to wear a burqa think that consciously either.

    I'll admit it's a stretch, but I think the stretch might be down to cultural differences where stupid heels are perfectly accepted here whereas the opposite is true in, say, Saudi.

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  132. O Great One, Lord Hank of Foy-ble - please do not deny Your Lordship's inferiors the pleasure of addressing Your Lordship by his proper title.

    The very thought makes me want to make obeisance in high heels and burqa.

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  133. Actually, if you insist, thauma, I'll make an exception just this once...

    Anyway, going wholly off topic, noticed that Mad Mel Phillips was linked on the "recommended blogs" or whatever on Cif today, so followed the link, and then the link after that, to "CifWatch". Anyone taken a look at that site? It's got a list of Ciffers who are regularly antisemitic.

    Explains a lot about how any I/P threads are mobbed by drive-by abusers.

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  134. Ooh ooh, this Cifwatch place is great. I've just found my perfect avatar for here if someone can talk me slowly through the process of uploading, downloading or toploading an avatar...

    badgeofhonour

    If anyone can redesign it to replace the Star of David with a cup of latte that would be cool too...

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  135. Blimey - looks like Nick totally lost it!

    QT

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  136. No, I cannae do it - stay up to watch QT, that is. The obeisance might have to wait too.

    Interesting that, Hank - I've seen some rather swivel-eyed posts on various sites (mostly by 11/9 conspiracy theorists) alleging that there's a huge Israeli network of human bots standing by waiting for their instructions on which site to bombard.

    Anyway, 'night all - hope to rejoin the discussions tomorrow! Oh hang on - tomorrow's Friday, maybe not after the early afternoon. ;-)

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  137. Bonnie doesn't look too pleased at having to sit next to the fash, does she, bless her?

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  138. Boo - QT site not working either! Doesn't say anythig about 'rights restrictions', just sits there with its annoying little globe picture saying 'watch here'.

    eep!

    just refreshed to try to kick it into life and have a creepy close-up of the dimb.

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  139. Yes Hank it is very bad indeed. Being a princess I mostly live in a Tiara and pearls but it is somewhat chilly at this time of year.

    Thaum I can see your point - and I do think the really, really high heels that have been in fashion for the last couple of years do bear comparison because they are genuinely crippling and actually dangerous. A friend bought me a pair for xmas and i nearly broke my neck - never wore em again.

    I just find the whole idea of women being covered because they may inflame male desire - really repulsive. And the fact that it is so isolating... it just upsets me. But it is very tricky because it would be hideous to play into the hands of racists - someone and i think it was sheff - wrote a brilliant comment on it once on a Cif thread that did make me think about the complexities.

    Anyway the show is starting and I need a glass of wine to brace myself for it!

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  140. Griffin looking a bit of an arse so far.

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  141. Just keep reminding yourselves that his views are extremist in Britain and thanking fuck or the sky pixie of your choice for it. He'd be fairly mainstream here.

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  142. I knew it!

    He's a reptile from V!

    He keeps licking his lips!

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  143. It's not working. Can only watch the 6minute clip on the news bit, not the alleged 'broadcast' on the QT site...

    boo.

    had opened wine.

    members of public 2 and 3 on the clip doing very nicely, though...

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  144. Electrifying stuff, so far. Griffin's going down in flames...

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  145. I'd noticed the lips. Nerves getting the better of him; so much for the smooth BNP PR machine we'd been led to believe we'd see.

    Best performances so far from Greer and Huhne. Straw just delivered a rehearsed speech.

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  146. Montana - surely the stuff about 'the volk' would still be rather problematic in the US? He keeps trying to say it's about being 'English' but the race-based crap just can't not start oozing up through the twists and turns of his ridiculous rationalisations...

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  147. Philippa, QT is live (audio) on Radio 5Live now.

    link

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  148. Ah, well, I get to listen to Florence and the Machine while following the 'minute by minute'.

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  149. oh, bless you scherfig.

    It's actually less disturbing not being able to see his little piggy face.
    "I have never hurt a single muslim"

    form an orderly queue...

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  150. Jeebus, and we get accused of being sad here! How effing obsessive to you have to be to spend that much time and energy complaining that a newspaper website is anti-Semitic?

    Sure as hell hope that whoever "Hawkeye" is, the name refers to The Last of the Mohicans and not my state.

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  151. nice from warsi on hamza and the demonisation of islam and christianity.

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  152. That was good, Philippa, yeah.

    Bonnie Greer is damn good too.

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  153. Jack Straw, man or fish? 'Cos that was floundering of the highest order!

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  154. Good use of the word 'digruntled' fro current questioner.

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  155. disgruntled, meant.

    clearly, wine kicking in...

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  156. Kind of interesting listening to it on the radio, not watching it.

    What did they say about the Kennedy / Nixon debate?

    Not that Nixon's winning in this case. He's still getting owned, but all I'm hearing is voices and opinions, not seeing the people asking. It's kind of liberating.

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  157. Griffin really should try to say as little as possible. The more he says, the dafter and more petulant he sounds.

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  158. Bonnie Greer is indeed kicking his head in.
    "What do you mean by British?"

    "We are the Aborigenies here" - now that's a keeper...

    No, my mistake - "guided tours in the lake district have been cancelled"
    That's definitely my favourite.

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  159. No, Philippa, it wouldn't be all that problematic. Even for disconcerting numbers of non-white Americans. I know it might not make any sense to you, but it's true. It's sort of a nativist thing, more than a skin colour issue.

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  160. Oh, fuck, I've got the same class of degree as Nick Griffin.

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  161. I want to see the evidence of people being turned away from the Greater Manchester Police Recruitment in their hundreds because they were white!!

    The last version of this I heard was that it was Greatest Manchester Fire Service and it was 24 of em... allegedly. Nobody has actually been able to find even one of them - not even the Daily Hate-Mail!

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  162. LMFAO!

    "This is a question to Dick Griffin - ooh, I'm sorry, Nick."

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  163. 'Skin colour's irrelevant' says Nick. And the British are aborigines, too!

    Luckily, Baroness Warsi seems to have seen 'Ice Age, The Movie', and is telling Nick he should visit the British Museum. It's a laugh a fuckin' minute, this.

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  164. eesh, Montana. that's really very depressing.

    ah, it's 'whipround guy' from the clip. I like him...

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  165. I like warsi.

    "there's no such thing as a bogus asylum seeker - you're an asylum seeker, it's a legal term"

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  166. She's smart for a Tory, it has to be said. Gaaahhh! I don't believe I just typed that!

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  167. I know, it's soooooooo confusing.

    note to self:

    more wine.

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  168. Warsi and Greer have been top. Huhne has been fine when he's spoken but he hasn't pushed himself forward very much.

    Griffin is an ass.

    Straw is a fucking embarrassment.

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  169. Ah, this is shit. Three neo-libs ganging up on the fat lad, all the worthy and earnest students in the audience, and nobody asking why it is that ordinary people are fucking angry and disenfranchised with the neo-lib system that the smug, smooth pros are defending.

    The truth is that the BNP's popularity is to do with globalisation, neo-liberal economic policies, and the rich getting richer as the rest of us get left behind. And there's not a single fucker on there who is able to understand that or attack that.

    So what we've basically got is a liberal love-in, where we can all slap each other on the back for being good anti-racists, but nobody's addressing the key issue, which is that capitalism is colour blind anyway.

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  170. And now Jan Moir is thrown into the ring!

    Oh heavens.

    Bonnie Greer does indeed rule.

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  171. Having said that, agree about Warsi - she's feisty and plain-talking. But at the end of the day, she's a Tory.

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  172. 'The BNP's popularity is to do with globalisation, neo-liberal economic policies, and the rich getting richer as the rest of us get left behind.' Thanks for the explanantion, Hank, I thought it was mostly about fuckwits who don't like darkies.

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  173. Hank - I don't think any of us were expecting anybody to speak against the status quo, sadly, as that's a country mile beyond the standard off debate at the 'highest' levels. But under the circumstances, I think it's been good.

    Because as a military mate of mine says - "when under fire, shoot the guy with the gun first".

    This has been all about Griffin - shutting him out on the immigration question was very good - and I think he, at least, has been shut down pretty well.

    Oh, shit, Griffin's now talking about men kissing.

    Privacy of my own home? Preach homosexuality? Christians wouldn't like it? tell my parents, fatboy...

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  174. Straw is an absolute muppet tonight - I am surprised to see how much he is stuttering. I bet he didnt win many cases if he was like that in court...

    Hank - yes, you're right to an extent, but the important thing tonight is for the BNP to get a drubbing.

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  175. Well done to the gay woman in the audience "believe me Mr Griffin, the feeling of revulsion is mutual"

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  176. A) I don't like watching anyone snogging in public.
    B) The more you see same-sex couples engaging in PDAs, the less odd it seems. So, the answer is MORE homosexual PDAs, right?

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  177. montana - hera hear. although i keep meself to meself, FYI, but that's mainly the old-fashioned ethics and everything. heh heh....

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  178. Finally Straw says something right. Let's be honest, there's no way that performance has won the BNP a single new vote.

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  179. FiveLive's finish - "this is Richard Bacon, radio Humberside, we're in Hull..."

    Alan Partridge was just so true...

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  180. Yeah, Bacon's a complete plonker, he sets my teeth on edge. Pity it's him doing the phone-in, because there might be some good discussion.

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  181. scherfig - a bewildering number of people telling Rich that Griffin did really welll...

    Ah, and there's Austin Mitchell. He nearly had a coronary up against the PO guy earlier, and I think he might be up for another one now...

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  182. Well, yeh, scherfig, it's partly about fuckwits who don't like darkies, but I've read Naomi Klein and like to pretend I've read Marx, so there...[Hank sticks tongue out at scherfig]

    Best thing was the Griffster's little rant at the end about "the ultra leftist BBC".

    I'm hoping that all of you who retain Cif posting rights will use that when you're dealing with the tiresome right-wingers who claim that the BNP is a socialist party.

    Disclaimer - "tiresome right-wingers" is not a reference to Lord David of Beckham, scherf. Twat though he is.

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  183. Philippa, seems that the all support for Griffin is by Email or text. Not a single member of the audience admitted to being convinced enough by Griffin to vote for him. The shame factor, presumably. I reckon the BNP are fucked now. Their website should be a laugh tomorrow - they should reset their clock to 'Countdown to OBLIVION'!

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  184. OK chaps - beddy-byes for me. My clerks hate me at the moment and have, for the second week in a row, booked me something in the morning AND in the fucking afternoon on a Friday!

    Bastards!

    Hugs xx

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  185. [whooshing noises]
    There is a spectre haunting Europe...

    Always reminded me of Snoopy's classic opus, "it was a dark and stormy night"

    Kidding.

    Although, his work on theology, "has it ever occurred to you that you might be wrong?" should definitely be in every school library...

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  186. night BB. rock dem meetings.

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  187. Oi, you callin' Becks tiresome? E's fuckin' ENGLISH, you plonker. His ancestors played for Britannia XI against the German Neanderthals during the last ice age. Show some respect!

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  188. This notion that he was being ganged-up on:

    Well, if I say that the sky is orange, I'd better expect that I'm going to be the only person in the room who believes that.

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  189. I paint, Montana - if you see orange, I can do that...

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  190. Well that was a curiousity - Never seen Dimbleby looking so po faced and poor old Bonnies body language showed just how excruciated she was having to sit next to the fat little toad.

    Straw was beyond useless - no surprises there - Huhne wasn't bad but B Warsi was rather good i thought, as Hank says she's feisty, pity she's a tory.

    On the whole think Griffin couldn't really handle it and Dimbleby wasn't letting him get away with much.

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  191. Actually, I hate orange, Phil. Can you do me a nice magenta or periwinkle?

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