24 October 2009

Daily Chat 24/10/09

Chartres Cathedral was dedicated in 1260.  Sheffield F.C. was founded in 1857.  The first transcontinental telegraph in the U.S. was completed in 1861.  Goodison Park, the first purpose-built association football stadium, was opened in 1892.  The Black Thursday crash of the New York Stock Exchange occured in 1929.  Concorde made its last commercial flight in 2003.

Born today:  Denise Levertov (1923-1997), Bill Wyman (1936), Kevin Kline (1947) and Wayne Rooney (1985).

It is United Nations Day.


  1. Just thought I'd stick these here in case they mysteriously disappear. Not often I look at CIF these days and see something memorable...

    Ally F

    I thought about sending this in a private email, but decided I wanted others to read it too. Here goes.

    #Dear Cif,

    I'd like to object strongly to the decision to commission the article today from Ardita Kraja.

    Her entire premise, that Nick Davies claims sex trafficking does not exist, is downright false. This is the third time the claim has been made, first by Rahila Gupta, thgen by Denis MacShane, and now hee - it is almost tantamount to defamation of one of your own journalists.

    Ardita Kraja's story tells us nothing we didn't already know. She is a Poppy Project service user and a trafficking victim. We always knew such people tragically do exist. However there are many questions her article leaves unanswered. What were the details of her enslavement? What were her circumstances in the two years before she came to this country? What definition of "trafficked" is she using? And while I do not doubt her truthfulness personally, I do have huge question marks about the way in which this article came to be here. I presume the Poppy Project served her up as a representative victim in order to disprove a straw man case that had never been made, and thereby smear Nick Davies, perhaps the most credible, respected and honest journalists working in the UK today. And yet the history of this debate is that the Poppy Project have close to zero credibility when it comes to the honesty and accuracy of their propaganda techniques. Is it possible that Ardita Kraja is being exploited all over again? I wouldn't rule it out.

    Obviously I could not, and would not post this on the relevant thread, anyone raising such questions on her thread would look grossly insensitive - like a rape denier. It is an entirely unequal and unfair debating tactic, and is frankly repellant, like the worst kind of shroud waving.

    Nobody can possibly come out of that thread looking good. I will have nothing to do with it.#



    I'd just like to say "bravo" to AllyF's comment at 7:47pm. If GP01 is right and the CiF editors are working to a different agenda to the actual paper then that's pretty disturbing. If they're actively working to undermine and smear journalists in the actual paper then they should be fucking sacked.

    For the record: any editor who responds to facts that undermine the agenda of some of his pet contributors by commissioning said contributors to lie some more and exploit someone who has already been exploited enough for the purpose of a cheap appeal to emotion is a charlatan who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near journalism.

    People trafficking goes on. Most of it is trafficking of people into unpleasant menial jobs, like the Chinese cockle pickers who died in Morcambe Bay. But for the "progressives" on the Guardian, that's just not fucking sexy enough. Sex trafficking? Let's pretend that's all people trafficking is and exaggerate it through the roof, that'll appeal to the public's prurient interests and damsel in distress reflex far better than people actually dying, and help Harman and co advance their illiberal political agenda, which is after all the important thing. And if anyone points out we're making stuff up to manipulate the public into supporting bad policy, just like we did over Iraq, we'll say the figures don't matter, if one woman is trafficked that's one woman too many, and then find one woman, wheel her out and say ARE YOU GOING TO CALL THIS POOR WOMAN A LIAR?

    I'm not going to call Ardita Kraja a liar. But she is being used by liars, and dangerous liars at that, and CiF is enabling them. Matt Seaton, j'accuse.#

  2. Excellent stuff...and, for what it's worth: Je also accuse. Je accuse you of using CIF as a platform to shamelessly promote your personal identity agenda in the face of overwhelming evidence, logic and general acceptance that it's incredibly harmful and divisive.

    J'accuse you of promoting worthless talentless writers, (Mcshane, Bea Campbell, Myerson, Joan Smith, Andrew Brown, Hundal..I could be here all day..and I'll forgive Toynbee..I supposed she's imposed) not for the quality of their writing or ideas, but because they're either friends of yours or fellow travellers in your ridiculous campaign to prop up the crumbling ruins of identity, diversity and victimology.

    Most of all, j'accuse you of banning open-minded, well meaning, righteous posters who just wanted to express an honest view in a pleasant and non confrontational manner, but decided to add a little humour or 'edge' for purely stylistic or rhetorical considerations.

    Anyway, good to see Seaton's lashing out in all directions from his fortified bunker; even attacking the print version. Hopefully, it won't be long before the cyanide pill or revolver see the light of day. He and Bindel are probably wondering whether to do an 'Adolf and Eva' before the forces of reality and reason start blasting at the door with their deadly 'truth ray'.

  3. MF
    God's truth their addiction to "taking a position" rather than factual pieces makes me despair. They've had some good stuff from the likes of prem Sika and now seem to be getting Allyson Pollock on regularly; even Tanya Gold did something witty the other day. I actually thought standards might be improving. But no, clearly they'd rather subjucate the truth and life's real victims to to their woeful posturing.

    I think it was Andysays who recently found the link from last February where Georgina Henry clarified to potential ATLers that CiF is not about analysis. Too fucking right.

  4. Bindel and Cath Elliot get involved here They seem to be accusing Belinda Brooks-Gordon of being a paid shill of the sex industry because her research doesn't fit their agenda. There's also some interesting stuff about Brooks-Gordon receiving a 'threatening' letter from Eaves' expensive lawyers after a Cif article she wrote earlier this year. I get that the impression that the Pentameter operations and Davies' articles have been so damaging that Eaves/Poppy are fighting back on all fronts (including their Cif platform).

    btw, their funding from London boroughs and councils is over £2.2m, and funding from the HO is £1.2m. They have a £1m annual income from rent.
    I would like to think that this money is being well spent on actually helping people, but I have some doubts.

  5. Dont know if anyone's pointed it out yet, but the controversy is similar to an earlier one, over the number of people burned (or, as in England) hanged for witchcraft in Europe - extraordinary figures were bandied about, in many cases by agenda-driven feminist groups - hundreds of thousands, over a million.

    The figure accepted by most scholars over the 16th to 18th centuries (Scotland burned her last witch as late as 1727) is much, much less - c. 40,000 is the figure given by Robin Briggs, with about 20-25% of these being male.

    As with the modern trafficking of women for sex no one denied the fact of it happening - it comes down to numbers. And agendas.

  6. Scherfig, makes for pretty depressing reading
    When you consider groups like Like Southall Black Sisters run on about £100k grant p/a...

  7. Edwin Moore
    "with about 20-25% of these being male."

    I bet that tidbit stayed buried for a few thousand term papers !

  8. I just read Davies article.

    The whole "MacShane" premise can acurately be describe as a load of arse on stilts.

  9. BW
    I think that SBS are funded mainly for a range of domestic violence support services provided through a resource centre. Eaves, on the other hand, is mainly a housing provider and, for (most but by no means all) women fleeing domestic violence that it houses / supports in resettlement in more permanent housing, it receives income from the govt's Supporting People funding via local government. This may partially explain the difference in income.

    Having said that, both produce research and undertake lobbying.

  10. Good stuff from Ben Goldacre this morning. It occurs to me that "Teaching the controversy", a strategy beloved of enemies of the truth from creationists to aids denialists, seems to be CiF's true M.O...

  11. MsChin
    I have a lot of respect for SBS for their difficult, pragmatic stance maintained over the last eight years I've been aware of them. As regards Eaves, I've probably got a lot of mileage out of a couple of scant facts there... but Nick Davies article certainly seems to be down on Poppy's/Eaves research methods / handling.

  12. Edwin

    I did my dissertation on early modern European witch trials. Some feminist approaches were wild - the "9 million menstrual murders" view, with any male victims generally being skipped over fairly briskly.

    Have you ever read the Malleus Maleficarum - now that is a read.

  13. BW
    Still ploughing thro' the comments on Goldacre's piece, some of which are, erm, pretty vehement:

    MichaelGeiger @9.37, addressed to SimonOB

    "By the way, dear Simple. You are correct that there is a virus and it is killing millions worldwide. And it is a virus of the mind, called stupidity."

  14. scherfig - thanks for the link to BBG's other blog-piece - that and her further posts BTL are very interesting, and some of the challenges she's receiving are just chaff, aren't they?

    AllyF's riposte very necessary, I think. I've been reading the swathes of articles on this but been keeping my neck in because I just can't see the point...

    Eaves accounts incidentally a bit confusing as the R&D is described as 'Poppy/Lilith' but both Poppy and Lilith seem to have other functions, so it's not obvious what funding received is for R&D as it cross-cuts without including all of two of the activity streams they have.

    PS - Bitterweed, I don't always agree with Prem Sikka, but he's a rigourous and undivertable man! After all, he's an accountant - he doesn't 'take a position', still less take one without knowing all the figures. Sort of a Ben Goldacre for the finance sector, albeit with fewer jokes. I always read his stuff with interest.

  15. Prem Sikka is always good to read. Bet he has to sit at a table for one at the annual Accountancy Awards dinner.

    Btw, last night's thread - my final comment was bang out of order. Sorry!

    As penance, I will be giving up alcohol for the next eight hours.

  16. Hank - heh heh - have been at seminars where the speakers have become so exercised by Prof Sikka's latest piece that they have been reduced to red-faced spluttering silence. I'm pretty sure some questioners mentioned him just to see the reaction.

    The Marx thing was interesting yesterday (if a bit derailed at the end) - had always wondered how Bea Campbell could describe herself with a straight face as a Marxist, but then how she can write her columns also bewilders me...

  17. MsChin
    Yeh - he always gets some pretty strong reactions from the righteous. Excellent !

    PhillipaB, yes, like Goldacre, someone who actually knows a lot about his subject...

    Ha ha, a good old friday night scrap by the looks of it. You guys ;-)

  18. "had always wondered how Bea Campbell could describe herself with a straight face as a Marxist"

    You mean Lady Bea, the Peoples' Bullshitter ??

  19. I think Lady Bea might mean that she is a Marksist rather than a Marxist. ie. she shops at M&S. That's the only explanation I can think of.

  20. Thanks for posting Ally's post monkeyfish. I'm with him on not wanting to post on that thread - well I don't post on Cif any more anyway but if I did I'd leave that one alone.

    Hi Sheff. I asked a Paisley teacher once if his school taught anything about witch trials and got a total blank - man was a senior history teacher and had no idea that in 1697 four women and two men were burned in Paisley for witchcraft (another man committed suicide awaiting execution).

    It's as much about what people think they know as what they don't know; I heard that fine historian Tom Devine during the week talk about a recent survey of Scottish school students of history - half of them thought the 1707 Union was achieved by English military conquest.

  21. Scherfig - thanks, that explanation makes much more sense.

    Altogether now:

    It's not Marxist-feminist-queer theory, it's reconstituted soy-bean / quorn pointless faux Marxist-feminist-queer theory, with a thick, creamy sauce of pure self-absorption.

  22. I mean, more seriously, surely an important part of Marxism is the dialectic, which requires development of thought through conflict / debate? So by sticking doggedly to her bizarre beliefs, in the face of all the evidence, she's condemning herself to holding 'thesis', and therefore being part of the problem, rather than actually developing her ideas...

    With a thick creamy sauce of pure self-absorption. With a parsley garnish.

  23. Oh dear. The Jane Czyzselska thread is not going well (it's not a brilliant article, but even so). There's this, from Vaitibi
    Not all of us have got over 'this homophobia' because a lot of us have been raped by queers.
    I'd say people are raped by rapists. Does a woman raped by a man thereafter display heterophobia? Or hatred of men? Would that be reasonable? No - (as evidenced by the reaction to the Melissa McEwan thread where she said she 'didn't trust men' as a result of past experiences) - because you can't tar everyone in a 'group' with the same brush.

    Am posting this here because I feel moved to say something but too scared to post it over there. Don't want to get into what would no doubt develop into a 'who's the biggest victim' slanging match.

    Chicken, I am, yes...

  24. "had always wondered how Bea Campbell could describe herself with a straight face as a Marxist"

    Strictly speaking, she could describe herself as a neo-marxist, but as in the case of 'liberal', the neo alters the meaning radically; 'neo' becoming a euphemism for 'anti'.

    pseudo-marxist is nearer the mark. I still contend the whole shambles stems from the Frankfurt School, notably Marcuse in the sixties and Althusser.


    Economic determinism is off the Number One spot and replaced with Critical Theory...whose various trendy relativist variants would soon make it to a Literature or Humanities department near you...infecting at least two generations of graduates with a faith in..well...anything that sounded cool really...cool and 'progressive'...and two cars, public school and a nanny for the kids, second home, £150 lunches...and still cool and progressive...how fuckin cool is that?

    Critical Theory is the root of all the Left's present contradictions and inconsistencies...particularly affording the likes of a Satanic abuse fantasist cum feminist-epistemologist the opportunity to describe herself as 'of the left'.

  25. PhilippaB
    No, pragmatism is the only option. I've avoided posting on a lot of threads recently 'cos of the inevitable slanging match scenario.

  26. I really miss the inevitable slanging match scenario.

  27. Thanks MsChin - while some threads can be very supportive for people sharing past experiences, I really doubt that this is one of them...

    Monkey - I remember reading a David Lodge book, where an academic was bemoaning his lot - went something like:
    "in the 1960s the challenge was getting the students to see that not absolutely everything Marx said was right - in the 1980s, the challenge is to persuade them that not everything he said was bollocks"
    There's a lot to be said for 'fashion' in accepted thinking, I think. As evidenced by the across-the-board acceptance of capitalism in the mainstream press...

    Question is - what to do about it?

  28. monkeyfish - I'm hanging back on this one because of the 'past experience' thing - I'll happily weigh in on stats, policy or dubious political pronouncements, but when the issue (or argument) is something that affects me personally (I mean, lots of 'issues' affect me personally, but I mean when an 'issue' involved an 'event'), I know I can be less reasoned...I try not to shout on CIF, but the last time I did (it was at MAM, what a surprise) was on a thread about mental health, and I knew, while I took out most of the swearing, that I lost it a bit. Which probably didn't help my case. But it upset me a lot and I try to avoid getting upset - plus, there's no point getting upset over a talk-board.


  29. #I mean, more seriously, surely an important part of Marxism is the dialectic, which requires development of thought through conflict / debate? So by sticking doggedly to her bizarre beliefs, in the face of all the evidence, she's condemning herself to holding 'thesis', and therefore being part of the problem, rather than actually developing her ideas...#

    Indeed. However, a major plank of neo-Marxist theory or Marxist structuralism was laid by Althusser in 'Reading Capital' in which he managed (without even reading the text, as he readily admitted..he instead relied on the reaction to Das Capital by other readers) to reject Marx's own Hegelian claims.

    #Together with Louis Althusser’s book For Marx, Reading Capital represents one of the foundational texts of the school of “structuralist Marxism” which transformed the face of modern philosophy and social theory. Presided over by the magnetic and intellectually coruscating figure of Althusser, the structuralist Marxists attempted no less than an intellectual revolution against dominant interpretations of Marx.

    Seeking to cleanse Marx of all Hegelian impurities and recast his thought on a rigorously scientific basis, in this work Althusser and one of his most brilliant students and colleagues, Etienne Balibar, subjected Marx's method in Capital, his critique of classical political economy, and the fundamental terms of historical materialism, to searching textual analysis and challenging conceptual reconstruction.#

    Althusser later rejected any sort of consistent ideology and even rationality. Basically, for him, history had no subject...we were all helpless blameless, individuals at the whim of fate. Human agency disappeared and with it responsibility for our actions.

    This was the basis of his defence when he later killed his wife. I wonder if Bea Campbell holds him responsible, or exculpates him on the grounds of not being a Satanist?

  30. Hi folks - sorry have been nursing a sore tum (medication related ). Better now!

    'Twas a fine collection of drunken rants last night lads!

    I must say Griffen on TV has sparked an interesting debate on UT! So its an ill wind I suppose. i did watch it, made himself look an absolute tosser (i.e showed him in his true light). But as you say fishy, seeing w*nkers like Jack Straw justify himself on that basis was truly vomit making.

    Agree about Churchill you can still hardly say his name in the Welsh valleys without people spitting.

    Also found Griffin's statement that he supported Israel was proof he 'wasn't a fascist' was um interesting?

    Re effect of the Russian revolution,the old Clause IV part iv of the LP constitution was adopted in 1918 largely on the wave of optimism engendered by October.

    Of course the gains made by the working class under capitalism were in part made because the bourgeois feared a revolution. At present they don't fear one and its much harder to fight. But they thought they had conquered boom and bust too didn't they?

    Ultimately I agree with Hank the only way forward is a revolution - namely the removal of the economic system that, despite the gains of bourgeois democracy, still enslaves us. How this system is to be removed is a matter of debate but it doesn't necessarily, although I think its most likely, have to be violent.

    It looks vanishingly unlikely at the moment but then the 'darkest hour is just before dawn'.

    Question is - have we reached the darkest hour? or how much worse does it need to get before we all say 'enough is enough!

    Scherfig -Lady Bea a Marksist not a Marxist LOL!

    I think I'm both ;))!

  31. monkeyfish

    contradictions and inconsistencies

    Seems to be what I'm tripping over all the time, literally and metaphorically, life just seems to be full of them - and its got worse as I've got older and not just because the council hasn't repaired the bloody pavements. Apart from some very basic bottom lines, ordinary decency etc I'm certain about very little these days.

    Bea's a fanatic and there is no accounting for them.

  32. "Seeking to cleanse Marx of all Hegelian impurities and recast his thought on a rigorously scientific basis..."

    Weird, then, as dialectic thinking is prety much the scientific method - challenging received wisdom to reach a new thesis, and never stopping...He seems to have come over a bit Calvinist at the end there.

    annetan - ave! I did wonder if the global banking crisis would (could?) have been a tipping point, but nah, we seem to be back to mismanagement as usual, distracted by bankers' bonuses (boo!) rather than the system that gives rise to their possibility in the first place (what?).

    Hank's point about colour TVs sums it up - what matters is that we have one, not how we pay for it - thus, the means are unquestioned, providing the results remain as we want them. The fact that there might be another path rarely if ever comes up.

    God, now I'm really depressed. Snap out of it, woman.

    So - am going to a fancy dress party tonight - theme is 'warriors and fighters' - I have no idea what to wear. Any suggestions?

    (so far best suggestion is to paint a red cross on a white T-shirt and go around handing out cake and bandages - am hoping to think of something better...)

  33. annetan

    Also found Griffin's statement that he supported Israel was proof he 'wasn't a fascist' was um interesting?

    Bonkers really thinking he can get away with that one. Of course he'd support Israel - somewhere for Jews to live that isn't England - so he can deport them all.

  34. "I did wonder if the global banking crisis would (could?) have been a tipping point, but nah"

    I don't think it's worth ever putting faith in tipping points. They'll keep coming. That's what makes Marx's characterisation of capitalism so strong. It is inherently unstable..you don't even need to be a Marxist to say so. There are plenty on Wall St who'd agree...might even call themselves 'Marxian' as a result. Left to it's own devices it accumulates wealth in fewer and fewer hands and eventually eats itself.

    But there are always wars, state interventions, bailouts..whatever to put it back on track...and it's never the capitalists who pay the price. Classical 'equilibrium' theories which posit self-righting or market realignments are the fairy tales...the convenient fictions we're all meant to swallow. These come from all sides these days. I'd be hard placed who deals in them most...NuLabour, the BNP or CIF...reality very much takes a back seat these days.

  35. Phillipa

    How about Hippolyta - Amazon queen and ferocious warrior. Gave up her dedication to abjuring men to marry Theseus and fight at his side. You get to carry weapons too.

  36. Sheff - nice - was thinking Athene, but that involves purchasing things. not sure I can run up a breastlplate and helmet out of what I have in the flat.

    and am definitely not binding anything down (hem) as this is my first party in ages and I may be on the pull...

  37. Quick everyone! Bindel's being actually quite amusing!

    "I like nothing more than coming home from a busy day offending people and relaxing into a story about Pete and Katie, or considering other serious issues of the day"

    oh, this is going to be good...

  38. Glad to see you are OK annetan I had noticed that you had not posted anywhere for a week!

    You had been missed. Doubt it's the 'darkest hour' yet but I hope to see it within the next half decade or so or at least within what's left of my lifetime.

    What is now beyond comprehension is the discipline/self control being displayed by Andysays - getting on for a month since he left and only one brief visit since then.

    Come back Andy all is forgiven.

    Just heard a newsflash on the radio ( reportedly from the Telegraph) THE DUKE OF FUCKING YORK HAS GIVEN HIS BACKING FOR BANKERS BONUSES!!

    Tosser I'll take responsibility for marching the prat up the hill come the revolution.

  39. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&feature=player_embedded

  40. "Tosser I'll take responsibility for marching the prat up the hill come the revolution."

    Seconded. What a CUNT.

  41. That was well worth a viewing MF!

  42. deano

    My pleasure. But tbh, I wish there was another one for that slimy bastard Jack Straw. He really does make my skin crawl every bit as much as Griffin. Seen this?


  43. Phillipa

    as this is my first party in ages and I may be on the pull...

    Hippolyta costume - delicate little off the shoulder (ideally fawnskin but not essential) tunic, very short, and enticing, soft sandals and leather helmet. Double headed axe pendant (optional). Bow and quiver of arrows - can't fail.

  44. MF - a very fine piece of writing.

    "His entire career is a gruesome paradigm of the enfeeblement of Westminster politcs"

    If I were prosecuting counsel at Straw's trial I would find it hard to decide whether to open or close my case with the above classic line from Norman. I guess I would have to both open and close with same line.

    But somewhere I would have to include words to the effect:

    " Now then Jack, dear lad, it's important you understand we are not hanging/castrating you because you are a Jew, or of immigrant stock. We are doing it 'cos you are tosser and a betrayer. Now would like your testicles sewn in your mouth or buried separately..."

    I don't like Jack.

    I cannot for the life of me think what must have been going in Barbara's head when she took him on as an adviser.

  45. Sheff - heh heh - 'magic girdle' too - right, off to buy weaponry, have a lovely afternoon all...

  46. Sheff

    Your suggestion to Philippa is a disgrace. If Stoaty comes on here today and reads that he'll burst!

  47. "And finally, Adolf Hitler."


  48. Phillipa - I suggest Rani Lakshmibai (Google her).

    You'll get away with a sari, bandanna, and sword borrowed from wee boy.

  49. Thank you Edwin, but I have now managed to pick up a sword and bow'n'arrow combo, with matching armguards, for a very reasonable price.

    I'd wring my hands about the toys we buy for children, but I have to lop two feet off a wrap-around skirt.

  50. Sorry deano - wouldn't want to give him a heart attack. Do you think he goes for lithe, sloe eyed women who can pierce your heart at a thousand paces (from horseback)? :-))

  51. Sheff - Stop it at once. He only has to read the word 'lithe' and his eyes glaze over...

    Happy hunting Phillippa.

  52. ....and so do mine.

    At last the miserable wet and windy morning has given way to a cloudless and sunny blue sky. I must get the dogs out for a walk...


  53. hello colin!

    just aking me crown, now...

  54. PB,
    Aking me crown? sounds a bit rude, would you ake mine?

  55. making, making me crown...

    never type and craft at the same time...

  56. Sorry, I was reverting to type. Have a great time.

  57. BB

    .. from today's Indie. One for your files I expect.

    Hostel is homeless man's castle

    By John Aston

    Saturday, 24 October 2009

    "An Englishman's home is his castle, even if that "home" is only a bedroom temporarily occupied by a homeless person in a hostel, the High Court ruled yesterday. Lord Justice Elias and Mr Justice Openshaw said those with rooms in hostels were "as much entitled to the protection of the law" from unauthorised police searches "as those living a more settled, conventional life."

    The guideline case involved Omar Prince Thomas, a homeless man whose private bedroom in a £5-a-day hostel in Lewisham, south-east London, was entered and searched by Metropolitan police without his permission. They wanted to arrest burglary suspect Matthew Hamilton, who was staying at the same hostel, and told Mr Thomas they were entitled to enter his room, because it was within the same premises......"

    Elias now at CA ?? Last time I saw him he was at the EAT and ruling against me...

  58. Sheff - see the danger now?

    The mildest of encouragements...the most innocent of typos and.......well speaks for itself really.

  59. deano,
    You're lucky I buggered off half an hour ago you cheeky young pup.

  60. Cheers Bro - I adore your style and have so much yet to learn.

  61. deano,
    Bit thrown by aking, thought I was missing out on something.

  62. Me too - I was away at the mere thought of an aking.

    The idea of something new, even if in reality it was something familiar but spoken of in an unfamiliar voice or accent was joy albeit sadly short lived.

    I was about to text my nephew's delightful French wife and ask for the detail.

  63. Just as well you didn't, it might mean something very inappropriate in foreign.

  64. Tis to be hoped that PB has a wonderful evening but she is far from out of the woods I fear.

    I have had some wonderful experiences with ladies in, and from, France and I must say I am quite attracted to the idea of a crafting. On an experiential basis so to speak.

    To be crafted by a fine lass with one hand whilst she types with the other sounds something special to me. And something to be contemplated if not executed before the expiry of ....and life.

  65. deano,
    And what about;
    'Ze polishing of ze 'ead of ze Johnson wiz Marmite'?

    Think we've gone too far mate. Thank God there aren't any ladies on here.

  66. Jesus you guys... it's like waking up in a room full of Humphrey Lytletons...

  67. Yo bitters,
    Who do you fancy for Xfactor?

  68. oh dear, oh dear. boys...

    I was going to mention that my arrows are now freshly fletched, but I fear that might lower the tone.

    enjoy your evenings!

  69. Is there no end to that woman's imagination and talent - but then she is an artist. Oh dear dear me fresh fletchery to finish - sounds fab. I'm voting for her on Xfactor

    My best endevour to explain that -'Ze polishing of ze 'ead of ze Johnson wiz Marmite' - was an old Yorkshire hangover cure at my nephews wonderful wedding down by Biaritz defeated all the english/french french/english linguists present.

    Still didn't stop me having a great wedding and storming the bridal bed at dawn, with the other nutters, bearing a bowl of onion soup. Some of the French traditions are great! What a three day binge it was.

  70. That's a disgrace Stoat - here I am frantically trying to make excuses for you and there you are blaming me.

  71. stoaty... hmm X Factor ... not really my specialism, more monkeyfish's terrain.

    I would like to think they will all be put in electric chairs - and the last one to die wins. Then, Simon Cowel should be fed to Jay's pigs, feet first, over the course of a week lonbg national holiday.

    In the likely event that this doesn't happen, I hope someone genuinely nice, with real talent, who has tried every other avenue to make an honest living from true creativity and respect for others' creativity, where this is their one last chance, wins, and gets to go platinum.

    As this is as wholly unlikely as the first scenario though, I shall write the whole thing of as some sort of tocxic biproduct of the Blair-Thatcherisation of culture, and I shall instead carry on my Lord of the Rings week and watch Return of the King.

    Anyone else here like Lord of the Rings ?


  72. Bitterweed,
    That's told me mate. Off to rot me mind with Harry Hill. Cheers.

  73. BW - LoR.

    Not seen it - I am thinking of asking for the DVD's for Xmas. Filmed in NZ or was it a kiwi Director?

    I have one of the early paperback editions from the late 1960's - an Xmas gift from a lass I was misguidedly engaged to at the time. So it is one hell of a long time since I read it and I was much interested in all the LoR chat on UT a while ago.

    I'm looking forward to the DVD's but then that means I will have to get a DVD player!

    I must dash off to the shop and get something for dinner.

    later bro.

  74. Stoaty, ha ha, enjoy !
    Deano - filmed spectacular effect in NZ. Great stirring, fun stuff.

  75. Had a text from me son it read:

    "I was watching 'Postman Pat' today and I thought to myself 'what kind of role model is he for kids?'

    The fucking scab"

  76. Evening all

    Excellent postie thread there.

    Given the thrashing the strikers have been given by the Beeb, I am pleasantly surprised to see that in general they are getting a lot of support from real people.

    It really would be a privatisation too far. The Water Board was the worst of all the privatisation disasters so far imo.

  77. A quick in and out here (ooh er missus).

    I've just had a look through yesterday's thread, and will say this, Monkeyfish is a magnificently articulate contributor, and if he was to opine on the colour of my curtains, I'd say two things:

    1) "What the fuck are you doing in my house you bastard?"

    2) "You have some clear and cogent points to make my friend, now come and fill up your glasses with brandy and wine."

    In all seriousness, MF's posts of yesterday around 10pm were really quite something. I read them with enormous interest and, er.. well, that's about it really.


  78. BB - yea good thread just read it through. BTW a possible note for your files at 17.33 above for you.

    I don't think there were any good privitisations.

    What many people failed to observe/understand was that any fool could make a profit from what were natural monopolies. What was a little less obvious was that making 'profits' for the public purse could have been presented as supporting lower taxes.

    Equally careful control and timing of the capital investment cycles of the nationalised industries were important macro economic levers that could have been used to control/influence the boom/bust cycles rather than relying solely on interest rates.

    Still my conscience is clear I never bought a single share in any of the privatisations even though as an economics grad I knew they couldn't fail. At the time I had lots of available credit but I'd be fucked if I was going to pay Thatcher for what was already ours!

    If only we could get folk to understand that what is happening now is that in paying through the nose for our water/gas etc we are really paying taxes to private corporations.

    Economic literacy never was part of the Sun's education manifesto..

  79. Ta deano

    I don't know Elias. I have only been at the EAT once or twice - really not my area. That was a damn good ruling though.

    The thing I wondered about though, given the "Hostel Room is his castle" aspect, is about that bloke who was done for having sex with his bike in his locked hostel room - do you remember we were talking about that the other day? I wonder if he could now appeal against conviction on the basis of this ruling, because he was put on the sex offenders' register for it.

    Staybrite - monkeyfish should be writing above the line on CiF, not banned. They don't have a clue sometimes, they really don't...

  80. BB

    That man is banned? A disgrace on stilts. Other tha the fact that I never buy the Graun anymore, I would retrospectively do so.

  81. If I'd been caught in a compromising position with me bike in a locked hostel room I'd be saying that not only is an appeal on but if necessary I'd be back down my local uni law library and planning my appeal to the ECHR already.

    Elias fucked me over twice once in the High Court and then the following year at the EAT - he did with style though, flattering me with an acknowledgement of our first meeting!

    Staybryte - I Second the notion of MF as an ATL contributor but I wouldn't offer him a brandy whilst seeking his views on your curtains. As the man himself acknowledged his mind is sensitive to the nationality of the liquor he takes in.

    Brandy could take him anywhere from the French Revolution to the return of Nelson's body to the UK.

  82. Armenians make brandy an'all you know Deano, in fact if you can distill wine and have barrels and a few years to spare you have brandy. You're thinking of Cognac.

    But that's another story....

  83. Staybryte don't start him off - Armenians Spaniards too, heard a rumour that some Fijians are at as well. The story that MF would weave...

    What would start out as a well intentioned and purposeful piece of scholarship intended to illuminate could waver....almost certainly would if Scorpio was acting as consulting editor.

    I cant think that the matelots would have allowed even Nelson to be brought home in a barrel of cognac. Cognac would have made such a pleasant change to Navy rum that it would have amounted to sacrilege to pickle a man in it

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  85. Well done on the postie thread Princess - give 'em hell!

  86. Now Rum is a drink for men..

    "Someday maybe, I'll go back to Paris,
    And welcome in the dawn at Chatelet,
    With onion soup and rum to keep us nourished,
    Till the sun comes up on St-Germain des-Pres"

    Believe it or not I once wrote an article about the history of rum for a magazine glorying in the title of "World of Caribbean Cruising."

    Did you know that the expression "The real McCoy" is rum derived? Along with "Grog" and "Tot".

  87. Ah Sheff I lost my rag a bit. I really, really do not like right wing libertarians. Find it hard to control the old temper.

    Right back at ya for your work on the trafficking thread too. If it had not been for you and MsChin I think I would have lost faith in humanity by the end of the first page!

    Still very intrigued by the man having sex with his bike. But I did watch this documentary once about a man who had sex with his car. Each to their own as it were. Although I don't know if anyone ever watched Rusell Brands Ponderland (actually really funny) the one on pets had this very disturbing woman - she was regularly having sex with the family dog. Her husband was really upset by this so took the dog and had 'em chopped off. And the woman said that this was when the marriage really started to go downhill.

    As Russell Brand came back on screen he just said 'Oh yeah the marriage went down hill when your husband castrated your canine lover...not when you started fucking the dog'.

    It then got even worse because she had this young pony and she said she had seen him looking at her 'in that way' but she was going to wait until he was a bit older. I laughed my head off but was also disturbed for weeks - I wanted to stage an intervention and free said pony but it was in the US. Maybe we could get Montana on the case.

  88. Fraid it's true, Princess!

    The version I read before was that the cleaners had knocked on the door, got no answer, so went and got the manager to force the door, but I dunno if that's correct.

    Anywho, armenian brandy? Armagnac for me every time. Love the stuff. A different flavour from cognac but far nicer if you ask me.

  89. Just tried to find a you tube clip but then thought better of it as it is rather wrong and disturbing but then found an outraged Daily Mail article about it with this comedy gold line:

    'As his closing joke, he performs a graphic mime of sexual acts on a butterfly.' I love it - in the Daily Mail!

  90. Thanks BB - very, very strange. I am going to try Armangac - now I know what it is. I used to look at it in the supermarket and wonder if it was the same as Brandy and Cognac and then looked it up to discover it is essentially but distilled differently etc.

    I really like Metaxa Greek brandy. Love the bloody stuff. It is really sweet and distinctive.

  91. Armagnac?

    Ever seen the relevant Sopranos epidode?

  92. I did know that staybryte.

    I have a brother who joined the senior service as a boy.

    In his early days all HM Ships crews were entitled to a daily tot (boy entrants were expec`ted to take it with a dash of water).

    There was a special Royal Navy Rum which was only distilled for the ranks (a bit of braid and you were expected to sup pink gin).

    As a special privileged when my brother got to the rank of Chief Petty Officer he was 'allowed' (nelson eye turned) to bring a tot 'ashore' (you only get a tot when at sea) for me to taste. Having the key to rum store was the job of the senior NCO on HM Ships!

    Tooth enamel striping, eyeball skin shedding stuff it was. I think there is something akin to it that is/was marketed for retired sailors called Woods Navy 100 proof (not the normal 70 proof stuff) . My brother claims that it is not quite as strong as the real McCoy..

    The most delightful aspect of being really pissed on a good strong rum (not white) is that a drink of water the next day sends you back from whence you came...

  93. Fair play to you Deano.

    "Wine, more wine,
    this costly anodyne.
    just pour that anaesthetic,
    until we're paralytic"

  94. Now that really is poetry staybryte..

    Armagnac? PCC.

    I couldn't swear to it at this distance in time but I 'think' I once woke up with matues rose shape, but, white glass bottle with a label that read something like Armagnac on it.

    The taste of the tears that I had at finding it empty were vaguely almond?

  95. I do not believe it - I followed BB's link above only to come across:

    "Man 'who had sex with park bench' cut free"

  96. "Police and medical personnel were called to Lan Tian park in Hong Kong after the man, named as 41-year-old local Le Xing, got into difficulty after he put his penis through a hole in the bench and got stuck when he became aroused.

    Mr Xing, described in reports as "lonely and disturbed", told police that he thought it would be fun to have sex with the bench.

    When officers and doctors arrived at the scene they tried to release some of the pressure by removing some of his blood. But their efforts proved unsuccessful, forcing them to cut the bench from the ground and take it, with Xing attached, to a city hospital.

    It took doctors four hours to cut him free. They later said that if he had been stuck for just an hour longer they may have been forced to amputate his penis"

  97. The Telegraph even has a picture of the bench:


    or is it the sister or brother of the bench?

  98. deano,
    White rum is fucking unseemly.

  99. A good way to describe it stoaty - I always thought it had something of a 3* petrol presence about it.

    Vile stuff I dislike it and the whole nonsense of it intensely. But unseemly is the best way I've ever heard it described.

  100. On that note Deano I am off to bed. A park bench- seriously?

    Nite all.

  101. With a hangover you could photograph.

  102. Funny that park bench thing, sums us up pretty well. If a woman reads that and we try to tell her it's her brain and personality we like, oh come on! the bastard really let the side down there.

  103. Too fucking true he did.

    He "told police that he thought it would be fun to have sex with the bench".

  104. Perhaps we are being too hasty, was the bench a looker?

  105. To my taste not - but as ever each to their own.

    There is a picture link to the said bench above.

    She's not exactly a Lutyens bench (I think that's what they call them posh hardwood durable bitches of benches in the Sunday supplements) the thighs and breasts are missing.

    I have seen benches in the FT's magazine that I could get quite excited about - if I could afford them.

    Truth is if you can afford a Lutyens bench you don't have to have sex with it. You just get a trailer take her /it down to the your local park sit on it open your book.........and wait.

    I think I'm going to forget the LoR DVD's for Xmas. I'll tell me kids I want a Lutyens bench.

    What's your favourite bench stoaty?

  106. deano,
    This has got me thinking to be honest. Benches right? You sometimes get them with brass plaques on, 'In memory of my late husband' etc.
    Lets face it son, only a fucking animal would shag one of them.
    But, the ordinary type of bench, council, I dunno. Christ deano you're a man of the world right? they're asking for it aren't they?
    I feel that I can speak to you about this as what with transporting of rodents and the owls and stuff you are, like me, a sensitive fucker.

  107. Stoaty - there's a late night art/lewd film on BBC2

    I'll get back to you later. There is a decorum. There is with benches, as with all things of use/class a natural order.....some so much better than...................I'll explain

    to be continued.....

  108. deano,
    I will leave you to your BBC filf.
    I am hitting the sack. Nite.
    Nice talking to you.

  109. An interesting yarn - crap acting. Even David Hemmings and Glenda Jackson lacked sparkle.

    Yea enjoyed the banter stoaty catch you next time around.

    Maths suggest the clocks have gone back...

    Nite all.

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  113. The above deletions were about removing failed attempts at how to create a live html link!!