31 July 2009

Daily Chat 31/07/09

The oldest recorded eruption of Mt. Fuji happened on this date in 781. The city of Thessaloniki fell to the Arabs in 908. In 1703, Daniel Defoe was placed in a pillory for publication of the satirical pamphlet The Shortest Way with the Dissenters; Or, Proposals for the Establishment of the Church. According to legend, he was pelted with flowers. Operation Banner, the longest-running British Army operation ever, came to an end in 2007. Celebrating birthdays today: Lynne Reid Banks, Jonathan Dimbleby, Evonne Goolagong, J.K. Rowling and Emilia Fox. It is Hari Pahlawan in Malaysia.


  1. And carrying over the conversation from yesterday -- Andy said:

    That doesn’t change the incontrovertible fact that everyone in Britain is descended solely from immigrants, those who arrived here from somewhere else.

    I consider that statement extremely controvertible. Frankly, Andy, I find it downright nonsensical. By your standards, every nation on the planet but Tanzania must be considered a nation of immigrants. My whole point is that when people make such a ridiculous statement in trying to discuss immigration, they only exacerbate the fears. I would consider that statement to be the immigration equivalent of the "All men are potential rapists" meme of the radfems.

    Tell me, how many millennia does it take for a population to be considered indigenous in your book?

  2. Well. There are no incontrovertible issues in this world of ours, but I tend to side with Andy regarding immigration. There is a theory that the different parts of the world were populated not because a human being suddenly sprouted from the void but because that human being moved about in search of safer places, fleeing winters or oppressive climates, food needs also influenced these migrations.

    Which takes us to the Creation or Evolution theories.

    No, I think Andy is not very much off the path when he claims the important part of migrations in the formation of the humankind.

  3. It can be useful to try to compare waves of immigration and their reception, for example that of Pakistanis into Britain, and that of so-called 'mohajirs' in Pakistan.

    In theory, Muslim immigrants from India into Pakistan should settle more easily into Pakistan, than Pakistani immigrants into Britain. In practice, things work out differently, and descendants of immigrant south Asian families can feel more at home in Bradford and Glasgow, than comparable families do in, say, Karachi.

    As for displacement, there is a beautiful, sad poem by the Welsh poet Hari Webb, about Edinburgh Castle:

    'Our language was spoken here once, and here
    Our literature began, chanted on these ramparts
    Whose magic is dependent on a switch
    That can be turned off at any time.'

    The great culture of the 'Men of the North', of Welsh-speaking Scotland is long gone, remebered only by poets and scholars such as Tolkien.

  4. Lots of people I know claim to be descended from "Celts", (it is indeed a cool thing to do in certain circles), but I've never met anyone says they're descended from the Beaker People, who they tried to "ethnically cleanse". Bastards, the Celts.

  5. Edwin Moore
    Joking apart, I have read that part of Tolkein's ambition in was to imagine an English language tradition of myth and legend, to compare with Finish, German, Norse and Icelandics, but that had effectively been demolished due to our oral tradition being wiped out by our ruling classes adopting French language after the Norman invasion... the trendy twats.

  6. The Untrusted is 6 months old tomorrow? Not bad, we have had only 17 serious rows, 1,023 gratuitous insults and 64 low level rows. I really dont think thats bad. Happy half birthday folks.

  7. I'm with BW. Celts=bastards; Normans=twats

    Go Beakers

    I'm taking my kids to the Otter Sanctuary today. Otter's are fuckin excellent little critters. I liked them anyway but when I heard on Charlie Brooker's gameshow that they'd bitten off 2 of Terry Nutkin's fingers, they jumped straight past polar bears to the number 1 spot.

    Also, easier to visit than polar bears and no survival training/ big coats required. What's that otter joke...something to do with curry?

  8. MF which otter sanctuary?

  9. Ach the Beaker people probably didn't exist - it was just a fad like Laura Ashley. Wiki has a lovely mysterious map showing the 'approximate' area of the Beaker folk - they didn't catch on in the west of Ireland for some reason.


    I'd guess the influence there of the Craggy Island Chinese community (and their preference for porcelain) was too strong.

  10. Whilst it is true that we are all immigrants except the Tanzanians (and possibly the Kenyans?)surely the point here is less about ancestry than it is about culture.

    My ancestry is a bit of a mish mash, one English grandmother and some possible bits of Irish and even French! However my culture is that of the non Welsh speaking Welsh, thats what I was brought up in.

    Culture doesn't develop overnight though so ancestry comes into it. The fact that my ancestors were largely Welshand if you go back three generations were all in Camarthenshire/Pembrokeshire (Now Dyfedd-*pr duveth*) means that I know my ancestors were there during the Rebecca riots (1843-44). They are part of my story, thats how I feel anyway, its where I come from. My roots if you like.

    To me Wales feels different from England. Its not something I think about a lot, but Welsh street names even in anglicised Cardiff city centre, the fish stall in the market sells Laver bread (a seaweed, actually don't like it! looks like green cow pat!!!) and the baker's stall sells bara brith and I practically live on Cawl (a bit like irish stew) in winter.

    Wales is where I feel at home. But Welshness means many different things to different people the largely Welsh speaking rural Welsh are different from those of us who are in the industrial South East of the country I think.

    England is the same but even more so. (it is after all bigger than wales) there is more than one English culture. The North is very different from the South for instance and then there is East Anglia, the Midlands and the South west. But there is still reason for them not to have a sense of being english - a sense of 'this is my place'. All humans need that.

    Feelings like that only get sour when they turn into 'my sort of people are better than all the rest'. There is no need for immigrants to 'become English' but there is a need for them to adapt to living in this country and to respect and understand our history and culture.

    How many muslims for example understand that our rather more relaxed attitudes to sex probably come from the fact that when we were a kargeky agricultural nation, peasant farmers needed to have children to help farm the land and care for them in old age? If the wife was barren it was an economic disaster! So you made sure she was fertile before you married her, in times when 'til death us do part' was a rigid rule it made sense. I am talking about the peasantry btw not the aristocracy.

    One of the unintended consequences of 'identity politics' is the cultural insensitivity of the muslim population. Mind you to be fair our own very frank media with its pictures of mooning drunk females on the front page doesn't help! That's not the culture of most of the indigenous population, not even of most indigenous young people tbh.

    On the other hand I know 'Welsh/Pakistani' Muslims who have learned Welsh. Thats quite something, especially as you can survive very well in Cardiff without it! (I do!) Although it has to be said that learning Welsh as an adult is rather poular among the welsh chattering classes and can be a good career move.

    We all need to be culturally sensitive but that should never be allowed to trump individual human rights. Sadly too many of the PC brigade allow that to happen.

  11. I didn’t expect my comments yesterday to be quite so controversial as they seem to have been.

    No problem – maybe I haven’t expressed myself terribly clearly. The word incontrovertible was probably an exaggeration. I’ll have another go.

    One of the facts about Britain’s human population which is well established is that everyone who lives here is descended from those who arrived since the last Ice Age, that’s about 10,000 years ago. The British Isles were uninhabitable by humans during that period of Ice Age, which lasted about 100,000 years. Most of them were covered in glaciers, and the areas that weren’t (South eastern England being one) were still too cold to support human life. There may have been people here before that, but as far as I know, no evidence of them had been discovered (someone may know better, but it wouldn’t negate my argument).

    The processes of “colonisation” by plants, animals and people after the end of the Ice Age are also well documented, and are covered to some extent in the book I recommended yesterday to Frank.

    Britain is not unique in this, but it does make it different from many other land masses, which have had humans living continuously for far, far longer, though not always the same group of humans in the same place. People have always moved about; it’s part of what we do.

    My argument, which I’ve made to BNP types on CiF before, is that any attempt to declare some cut-off point, arrivals before which can now be considered “indigenous”, and after which they should be considered “invaders” or “immigrants” is entirely arbitrary. It’s subjective, partial and makes no real sense.

    How many years or generations does someone have to trace their family back in Britain before “we” "allow" them to live here?

    Fifty years? One century? Three centuries? etc, etc, etc. The whole idea is nonsense!

    My opinion, which I accept many others may not share, is that the whole idea of indigenousness is both unscientific, and meaningless in practical terms when discussing the current movement of people from one part of the planet to another. There are issues which are important ones to discuss but, for me, indigenousness isn’t one of them.

    Montana: The difference between the statement about all men being potential rapists and mine about all Britons being descended from immigrants is that to suggest someone is a rapist is inherently insulting. Everyone agrees that rape and rapists are bad.

    The fact that I’m descended from immigrants, whether it’s my parents who chose to move from Northern Britain (Scotland) to Southern Britain (England), or whether you go back however many generations to the first andysays ancestor to wash up somewhere on these shores isn’t any sort of insult at all, unless you’ve got something against immigrants, which I know you haven’t.

    Calling Britain a mongrel nation or saying we don’t have any culture of our own would be insulting, and I would argue against anyone who said that.

    Maybe there’s a bit of reductio ad absurdio (or however you spell it) in my argument, but that’s the basis of the opinion I hold.

    I agree with basic thrust of Anne’s post, and especially the para which begins:

    *Feelings like that only get sour...*

    (for some reason I can’t actually copy it...)

    The problem is that feelings are getting sour, and we have to find ways of sweetening them up again. Saying “I’m more indigenous than you, so you can shut up/ fuck off” (lovely debaters, those BNP boys) isn’t really helping.

  12. I don't mind if I'm descended fromt the Romans - they had hot baths and decent plumbing. When they left it took centuries to get back to their level of hygiene. Some people still don't manage it.

    I'll get me coat.

  13. Reg: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers,and from our fathers' fathers.

    Loretta: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

    Reg: Yeah.

    Loretta: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

    Reg: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!

    Xerxes: The aqueduct?

    Reg: What?

    Xerxes: The aqueduct.

    Reg: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

    Commando 3: And the sanitation.

    Loretta: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?

    Reg: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.

    Matthias: And the roads.

    Reg: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation,the aqueduct, and the roads--

    Commando: Irrigation.

    Xerxes: Medicine.

    Commandos: Huh? Heh? Huh...

    Commando 2: Education.

    Commandos: Ohh...

    Reg: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

    Commando 1: And the wine.

    Commandos: Oh, yes. Yeah...

    Francis: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.

    Commando: Public baths.

    Loretta: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now,Reg.

    Francis: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.

    Commandos: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

    Reg: But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system,
    and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

    Xerxes: Brought peace?

    Reg: Oh, peace? Shut up !

  14. Bru read your Horrible Histories - there was so much bacterial infection in Roman public baths it was dangerous to go in with broken skin!

    Private baths were good but they were of course for moneyed slaveowning Romans.

  15. Bitterweed

    Do you want a bag of otters noses with that?

  16. Aye!

    One of the few remaining true gents in a profession increasingly run by bastards. He'll be missed.

  17. My thoughts exactly LordS.

  18. Now foody types, what do I make for 6 people coming to dinner tomorrow night?

  19. Vari - do they like curry?

    Dehli Lamb

    I love this...

  20. Ooops spelling!

  21. Although I normally have it sans lentils

  22. ... what do I make for 6 people coming to dinner tomorrow night
    Reservations at a restaurant?

    Oh, where to start! Tell you what though, while not making any particular case for vegetarian food, I've had quite a bit of success with Yotam Ottolenghi's stuff from The G's cookery pages.

    This one went down particular well.

  23. Hmm ... that link is fine if you take the cifthreadrefugee bit from the front of it and just leave the bit that begins with www.guardian.co.uk

    I've no idea how that got in there. I certainly didn't type it!

  24. They both look gorgeous, and I will definitely be trying them, however, there is always one bastard who dosn't like curry, and they're coming tomorrow!

  25. http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/4518788.Benefit_cuts_force_me_to_eat_unhealthy_chocolate_and_crisps__says_Sussex_woman/

    i know its wrong to laugh, but...
    Space Invaders?

  26. Serve them Curried Bastard Who Didn't Like Curry.

    Has to be pasta then I guess. Walnut and Gorgonzola with spaghetti and a big side salad. Dead easy to cook but you'll have to Google for a recipe, my cut and paste isn't working here for some reason.

  27. i know its wrong to laugh, but...
    No, it isn't. Really, it isn't.

  28. Vari
    Go for mash. With gravy if you really want to pull.

  29. Oh my heavens, that had me laughing out loud.

    Now, I'm having a dim moment, but that is a spoof isn't it?

  30. Thank you LordS - I shall look into that, unless the curry hating bastard has a nut allergy!

    That is so much a dish to pull with Jay, or roast potatoes and gravy, gravy is the difference between a snog and a shag. However, as we are not into swinging, I'll probably have that tonight instead....

  31. In other news, a man is suing Warwickshire County Cricket Club at Edgbaston for forcing him to drink nineteen pints of beer in the rain yesterday.

  32. Please don't let Frank look at that!

    Hair highlighting? WTF!

  33. I can't pick a single favourite thing out of that, but the photo is an absolute belter, and I love the shoehorning in of her musical preferences.

    Space Invaders - I didn't even realise they were still around....

  34. Andy:
    "I’d agree with thauma that an “English” culture was imposed on Scotland after this Union, and that that is also hugely significant to where Britain is now, but that is something slightly different."
    Think that's a bit of an over-simplification. There was plenty of enthusiasm for a new "North British" identity in the C18th. There were also a fair few Scots who wanted to differentiate themselves from the Highlanders until people got all misty eyed over that sort of thing in the next century. It's not all imposed. Arguably, a portion of Scottishness owes itself to playing up a (partially) invented tradition for the benefit of the English (Queen Victoria or Scott's readership spring to mind) or in competition with them.

    BB etc
    Think Edwin (or someone - sorry) has already touched on this, but you're unlikely to find an archaeologist who thinks the Beaker People were a "people" anymore.

  35. Vari - you can get Space Invaders emulators on the net fer free. My kids love it.
    (or is that not what you were on about)

  36. Just seen my *hilarious* mistake.
    Has no-one pointed out to her that for the price of those bleedin' crisps, she could have had a much healthier curry sauce and chips, or a couple of loaves of bread?

  37. She could have had shitloads of mash round mine the other night.

  38. BW - with all that lard in it, the crisps and chocolate may be a healthier option.

  39. "She could have had shitloads of mash round mine the other night."

    I dunno, BW, she loooks quite a serious unit. I think her idea of "shitloads" may differ from yours somewhat.

  40. Thank god she didn't BW, if there was gravy involved she might have leapt you, and as Jay wisely points out, she's a woman of some substance....

  41. JR
    She'd have to have sucked it out of the pan. Been good for her neck muscles.

  42. 'What shall I feed my guests? I thought you were living on barbequeues over there...

  43. I think that our barbecue has taken such a hammering from the weather that the mere placing of a sausage on it would cause collapse....

    I wish I hadn't got pissed and invited people to dinner.

  44. Vari
    She may have skidded over trying... the floor was a bit messy.

  45. fat doley brYtn bitch

    Another great reason to nuke Brighton.

    I used to live in Brighton, worked through Uni delivering pizzas, then managing the shop - the *scum* we encountered had to be seen to be believed. Entire families in pyjamas or dressing gowns, having thirty or forty quid's worth of food delivered every night. Moulscum was the worst. I used to get a call to the same bloody flat every other night where I'd be greeting with an Uncle Monty type, generally in his dressing gown, and generally coming to the door for his pizza with a hard on. Well, it was somewhere to rest the box while I fished for change. Then there were the flats where the heady aroma of anchovies and pepperoni was left reeling from the dense coating of dogshit on every surface.

    Some nights it was all i could do to shovel the free pizzas down after work. I think pizza was 90% of my diet for two years.

    Kill 'em all. Let god sort them out. Then kill them again. Kill god too. What the fuck was he thinking?

  46. See what I mean?

    Let god sort them out.

    I see a slight problem with that....

  47. Come on Frank, she's the poor bitch is suffering, no highlights!!

  48. slight confusion there....apologies

  49. All this talk of chese has got me doing a shop at waitrose on line! At least delivery is free!

  50. Frank, you really are a piece of work. The poor thing has to live on Space Invaders and you cant even find some sympathy. Not Wheat Crunchies, not Walkers, but Space Invaders.

    Moulscomb is a hole. Whitehawk is worse though, surely, though i think Asda still deliver to Whitehawk - as policy they stopped delivering to Moulscombe though, unless i have got that the wrong way round. Im heading down for Pride tomorrow, i'm gonna find you a fella Pikey, a big, hairy queer in leather chaps who will tease you seductively with Space Invaders and Tony Benn quotes. I might wear a dress as well.

  51. Fencewalker: you’re right of course that what I said was an over-simplification; would you like to read my PhD thesis, “Whither the Scot – a post-post-modern analysis of the ups and downs of the Highlands and Lowlands”?

    You’re also right that there wasn’t a single monolithic view of what constituted Scottishness (then as now). Nor is there a single monolithic view of Englishness, Welshness, Irishness or Britishness is. It’s all terribly confusing.

    I was just trying to give a reasonably succinct version of my opinions...

  52. Let god sort 'em out
    I see a slight problem with that....

    Cthulhu then, I don't care. Smallpox. DVT.

    I think what we have in that heart-rending article is practically a legally watertight definition of a culture of entitlement. She is convinced that she has an absolute right to her highlighting, paid for by the DoleFairy - I doubt she has any idea where the money actually comes from. I ask myself, why am I paying for this lardarse's monster munch? Would I rather continue paying for her monster munch, or would I prefer she goes hungry? In fact, if it came to it, would I rather deprive *my* kids of monster munch, or would I prefer she just died?

    It's "just died" I'm afraid. I have dug deep - I have inquired into my soul - I would prefer this woman dies, rather than I pay for her potato-based snacks. She contributes nothing - she never will. She understands nothing - she never will. What is the point of her? Why should I pay to keep her fed and watered?

    I'm really keen to hear this argument, if there is one; please, someone, tell me - what moral debt do I owe her? What claim does she have on my labour? It's the unasked and unanswered question of our time - anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

  53. "I'm really keen to hear this argument, if there is one; please, someone, tell me - what moral debt do I owe her? "

    Perhaps you owe a moral debt to society, Pikey, and her by consequence. We all take from society, we all benefit from society, and a lot of us benefit through things that are little more than an "accident of birth". Some arent so lucky, they are morons, its not always their fault. Since we let society's winners take a hell of a lot, perhaps we should take care not to abandon the bottom rungs and acknowldge the system creates winners and losers, often thorugh no particular effort on their part.

    So maybe you dont owe her anything, but you do owe society for the relative comfort and security of your existence. Part of that moral debt is looking after the morons and less fortunate, and paying for their Space Invaders.

  54. The unasked and unanswered question is not so much whether we owe this woman anything, it's more how much do we owe her.

    I say we owe her Space Invaders but not highlights.

  55. Andy
    It’s all terribly confusing.
    Thats the point isn't it - there are so many competing versions, much of whatever actually was is lost to us, so we might as well make up our own stories and get on with it.

    The undeserving poor, they are so unattractive aren't they, with their shell suits, low IQs, squalor, all round inanity and general uselessness. And it's so painful that we have to subsidise the stupid, fat, lazy bastards whilst they stuff themselves with junk food, cheap booze and breed endlessly.

    Doesn't it make you wonder how they got there?

  56. So maybe you dont owe her anything, but you do owe society for the relative comfort and security of your existence.

    How much? LordSummerIsle has it part right.

    See here's the thing; the social contract, of which you speak, has limits. Society/the state, can put a claim on me, for that which it offers back. But how much? I dont' see it offering me a whole fucking lot at th emoment, I see it taking a great deal. I reckon there's a moral see-saw that starts plummetting when the state is taking half my earnings, all told, to do the highlights of eight or nine million parasites. No. Too much. Too far. I'm happy to contribute a little, I'll pay a tithe - 10% - for t'poor. I'll pay one or two percent for defence and Her Maj and all the guff that goes with it. I'll even pay a couple for the roads. And fuckit, why not another for the national trust, national parks, and maybe a canal or three. 15%. That'll do. And then I'll take care of my own education/health/everything else. But this continued bloodsucking, to piss *my* money away on pointless lard mountains like her, no! No!

    It's got to stop. It's not legitimate, it's not sustainable, it's not moral and it's not even doing good for the flotsom involved.


  57. Andy
    "I was just trying to give a reasonably succinct version of my opinions..."
    You did that here? In Pedant's Corner? Dangerous.

  58. I think you'll find that's Pedants Corner.


  59. Frank, where will the council find the money to shovel the corpses from the gutters? (even if they mechanise the collection they'll still charge the community) - your call: pay for cleaning up death or life.

    I'm up for seeing Jay in a dress.

    Anyway, as an aside to the potential chav holocaust, here's my recent post on the WDYWTTA thread:

    yeh, I'd like to revisit PatDavers comment about the dynamics of online communities. PatDavers was especially interested in knowing what causes them to fragment into vendetta-pursuing cliques.

    Be careful guys - this is unexplored territory (not) - as historians would say: there are maps from the past that chart familiar territories.

    Be very careful of cults (in the not-so-new arena of virtual communities), be extremely careful of those organised in a fuzzy way from Iowa, Indiana, Idaho, Ohio (in fact anything beginning with 'I' or 'O' from the mid west of apple pie ).

    Remember when communes were cool? And then before you knew it people were wearing black velour track suits and white trainers waiting to be transported to a higher level. You feel comfy now - and then you start allowing the 'voices' to tell you what's right. And you do that by not arguing against the 'commune' way - you'd rather be a spectator than intervene - that's called the Stepford syndrome.

    Hey, I can tell you, when you leave you'll have to suffer the equivalent of a boiling oil email berating you for the betrayal of brotherhood (fuck - did I unknowingly join the on-line Masonic KKK?) and cuff about the head for misjudging someone's parenting skills (WTF was that about? - In a world of trillions? )

    Sometimes a lone raider will prevail (yessss go olching) but, if you're sucked in (as, Jay has explored through his scam advance fee payer links) ... guys, you're fucked :) take care

    (kiz, bru, jay et al - get out of there)

  60. On a more practical point, Pikey (my first offering having been brutally rebuffed), what do you think those 9million would do with all money and housing witheld? Can you imagine the crime rates? Would that affect you? Probably, yes. Perhaps the other 20% of your earnings is a fair price for a relatively civilised country for you and your family to live in.

  61. Pedants' Corner shirley? - The corner owned by more than one pedant

  62. Yeah, Pedants' Corner. Lucky we dont have any of the buggers round here.

  63. Can you imagine the crime rates? Would that affect you? Probably, yes. Perhaps the other 20% of your earnings is a fair price for a relatively civilised country for you and your family to live in.

    I could buy a lot of ammunition with the rest of that tax saving. That's danegeld Jay - pay the scrotes for their monster munch of they'll rob you - screw that. Oh and I don't consider this country civilised. But I don't expect anyone to accept that solution instantly; but answer me this: where does it go? what's the path? What direction are we heading in? Are things getting better, or worse? and if they're getting worse - and I can't believe anyone could think otherwise - then what is going to turn it around? Monster munch outreach workers?

    Where does it all end? Personally I'd rather tackle this sooner, than later.

  64. Pedants Corner. It is a corner where you might find pedants rather than a corner that belongs to pedants, so it's adjectival rather than possessive.

    IMHO of course. Opinion is divided ;O)

  65. No no, i think what you refer to would more likely be called Pedant corner, not plural, surprisingly. Think Burger Corner, Car Corner, Crack Corner, Ho Corner, etc, even when plural it seems more convention to use the singular in this context. So i think a corner frequented by pedants would be called Pedant Corner in common parlance.

    Pedants' Corner must then be the corner belonging to the pedants, there is certainly a sense of ownership implied, "their turf".

  66. Pikey, its getting much, much worse. Cut taxes and you'll see how much worse it can get though. You're essentially back to the jungle.

  67. Pikey, its getting much, much worse. Cut taxes and you'll see how much worse it can get though. You're essentially back to the jungle.

    if jay is right and if taxes are cut, I recommend a kalashnikov for every day use - they are light and easy to carry and use and maintain, ammunition is widely available. You might also want a small pistol. There is a discussion going on at hand guns on which are the most accurate.

  68. Frank as someone who struggles with her wieght even when eating healthily I really object to the term lardarse!

    Having a weight problem is NOT a character flaw.

    We've got a problem and it needs solving, I don't think an anti poverty holocaust is a way forward though.

    I don't pretend to have a quick solution though - we've left it to fester too long and its will take time. Just leaving them to fester on benefit sure isn't the answer.

    But the you see Frank I am the sort of socialist who believes in the dignity of labour (= work OK?) Labour (capital L ) hasn't got any dignity any more.

  69. Of course we do have a lot of people whose jobs have been disappeared by mechanisation.

    Street cleaners need to be able to operate machinery these days.

  70. Pedants, pedant’s, pendants’

    Who cares? It’s only a fucking apostrophe.

    Not as if it’s anything important (like suggesting that the bloody English ever conquered the Scots...)

    Although actually, we pedants do own this corner.

    "We run tings..."

  71. what do you mean only a fucking apostrophe! huh?

    that's fighting talk....

  72. Anon E Mouse: where I come from (Tottenham, in case you’re wondering), “fighters” don’t hide behind a mask of anonymity.


  73. The world was built on apostrophes.

  74. "I'm up for seeing Jay in a dress."

    I warn you, Parallax, its not a sight you'll soon forget. I found a charming pink nighty in a little Spanish town. Its really very offensive.

  75. Jay
    My lad, who's built like the proverbial brick shithouse, wore a yellow halter neck frock to raise money for breast cancer research. Looked lovely with the hairy legs & trainers ...

  76. Cos everyone knows who you are right? Andysays is your actual name. You never use aliases.

  77. Mousey: andysays is the name I used when I first signed up for CiF. I put my real name in my profile.

    Unfortunately, you can’t check it out, because andysays fell foul of the CiF mods, and his profile isn’t there anymore.

    I now post on CiF as traneroundthebanned (don't go running to the Mods with this piece of tittle tattle - they already know and are happy with it).

    But that aside, for the purposes of blogging, I am andysays.

    Who the hell are you?

  78. Who the hell are you?
    Wants to start a fight over an apostrophe? Lynne Truss would be my guess.

  79. I think an ampersand is much a better prize.

  80. There's something about an ampersand, isn't there?

  81. I don't raise my dukes for anything less than an umlaut!

  82. Quite like the colon too, and double points for a double meaning wotsit. Plus you can have half a colon if you haven't got enough for a full one..

  83. Semicolon; not quite the real deal but a good solid gramatical wank nonetheless.

  84. I don't know what this is -> Å , but I do quite like it.

  85. It's a girl Sealion. You may have seen them at school.

  86. I like these Ѭ Ѩ Ѫ myself, haven't a clue what they mean (they're cyrillic) but they do have a lovely spidery quality

  87. Crap. Sealion, I should be able to tell you what it is, but I can't remember for sure. I think the little circle is called 'bolle', so it would be 'a bolle'. The sound that it represents in Swedish (and Danish -- not sure about Norwegian) is roughly a tight, round 'o' sound that kind of glides into a schwa sound. Scherfig would know.

  88. Ooh, Sheff. I don't know what those look like on your end, but on my end they're no Cyrillic that I recognise.

  89. montana - must be obscure and wonderful cyrillic then - they came from the cyrillic symbol bit on my machine

  90. sheff
    Have I got cyrillic on my machine somewhere or is it hiding from me?

  91. Sheff -- according to Wikipedia, they're archaic. All variations of the letter 'Yus' (which is archaic, itself). I only know the Russian Cyrillic -- there are variants and additional letters used in other languages. I've never figured out how to enable the Cyrillic on my computer, even though it's allegedly there.

  92. No, I’ve got Curlz MT, but no Cyrillic. I’m jealous now.

  93. "I don't raise my dukes for anything less than an umlaut!"

    Made me chuckle...

    MsChin - the hairyness always works wonders in drag, i prefer flip flops to trainers though, just a little more feminine, no?

  94. True, Jay. I hope you've painted your toenails a matching shade of pink to the dress?

  95. Never bothered but there's a first time for everything. I quite fancy those long gloves, very dainty. I think i am going to a charity shop to get a new dress though, have had the same one for a few years now. A woman wouldnt settle for that so im damned sure i wont either. Bru would have a heart attack if she heard someone had had only one dress for 3 years.

  96. right im off for the night

  97. jay - No, no, flip flops will not do. Hairy legs, yes but you must have proper shoes. There's a wonderful shop on Chiltern street in London where you can get a very elegant shoe for the 'larger' foot. I believe they also do frocks. Although I'm sure you must have something similar in Brighton.

  98. Re: cyrillic - Open word click on Insert and Symbol.

    Open the subset drop down and scroll down to Cyrillic.

    It would take ages to actually type something that way though.

    I think you can download fonts from somewhere though - not sure.

  99. We should have called this place The Pedant Tree. I knew some bugger would quibble over the apostrophe (and they *are* important).

    Sheffpixie: You forget that Kalashnikovs are notoriously inaccurate.

  100. Is 'quibble' the right word?


  101. Frank - It's "just died" I'm afraid.

    C'mon Frank - I sincerely hope you don't mean that. I'd like to see her "re-educated" into a job and being a contributing member of society - and her attitude disgusts me too - but "just died"?

    Tell you what, I'd rather pay for 1000 like her (much as it disgusts me) than one fucking banker's pension.

  102. fencewalker
    You forget that Kalashnikovs are notoriously inaccurate.

    Yes I know but with K's you just spray them in the general direction - these proles that Frank hates so much are so fat it's difficult to miss them. It's in the closer combat Frank will need to be accurate - you know for whacking the kids.

  103. Dotterel

    which otter sanctuary?

    The non-longer existent otter sanctuary on the A66 near Barnard Castle. Fucker's closed down. I was gutted. Ended up in some shitty castle instead. It was still on the friggin website as well.

    I've been once before. It was great. There was this great fat otter with a peroxide perm who only ate fish and chip flavoured wotsits and used to fart a lot. She'd been abandoned as a pup and washed up in a stormdrain in Brighton. I heard she was the target of an assassination attempt by a member of the otter libertarian militia...otters are very political creatures.

    Just noticed you've got otter in your name. Is that significant?

  104. Oh, and it's definitely pedants' corner.

  105. I'd take an AK at a push but the CAR15 will do for close up work, or an M14.

    C'mon Frank, I sincerely hope you don't mean that ... "just died"?

    Yeah - why not? What's the point of her? This is what I'm trying to get to - what benefit does she bring to me? I can see all the debits - what are the credits? every person like that makes it more and more shitty in this country - why do I want her around?

  106. As an aside, potato references are popping up everywhere these days. Even in Roy Hattersley's piece.

    Wonder if potatoes are centre stage in the ATL commissioning brief for CiF this week?

  107. Frank
    what benefit does she bring to me?

    Well, she's kept you waffling away on the UT and you clearly do love a good moan - so perhaps you should thank her for that.

  108. Frank - obviously she doesn't bring much to us, but she takes a fuck of a lot less than the fucking bankers (and other corporate bribers of the government). Unlike them, she might possibly be redeemable.

    Nobody deserves to "just die", not even the *ankers. Who can't bloody blame a disadvantaged background even. Those are the real bloodsucking vampires who deserve complete contempt.

  109. Frank
    "Yeah - why not? What's the point of her? This is what I'm trying to get to - what benefit does she bring to me? I can see all the debits - what are the credits? every person like that makes it more and more shitty in this country - why do I want her around?"

    Does your logic extend to disabled people or old people, who don't bring any benefit to you either, and who might also require support from the state?

  110. Changing the subject somewhat, there's a vacancy for a Commissioner at the Women's National Commission. I'm wondering if this position has been vacated by the venerable Bea OBE

    Why? Because Bea is no longer listed as a Commissioner:

    Now, which CiF commenter do you nominate to take her place?

  111. Msc

    Can't think of anyone offhand, possibly Marina H - but if jay can hack it in a frock, and with some decent shoes, perhaps we could nominate him.

  112. Sheffpixie
    Yep, jay's a good choice and the long gloves could swing it for him ..

  113. Frank

    "what benefit does she bring to me? "

    Her existence allows you to feel superior Frank - surely that's worth paying for?

  114. Hello, deano - good point.

  115. This comment has been removed by the author.

  116. Hi MsChin

    Lively thread these last few days - my internet link is often so slow that it's not feasible for me to join in when the traffic here is heavy and fast. By the time I get a post in the conversation has usually moved on...

    Still I'm not complaining to be able to read the thread is still a joy.

  117. Hope your dongle works better over the weekend, deano :-)

    Good night from me.

  118. Deano
    Thanks for the tip about using beef dripping as hair gel.


  119. Lard for the hair BW!

    Beef dripping is far too delicious to waste on vanity. Consider which of the following you are more likely to pull with:

    a) wanna come back to mine for a beef dripping sandwich?


    b) wanna come back to mine for a lard sandwich?

    Must away the bed, a lot to do tomorrow weather permitting. Glad to hear you had a good holiday my friend.


  120. Night Deano, I'm staying up.

    Anyone for a line of sus scrofa ?

  121. Hello kids, just popping in to say "Happy half birthday!!" No fighting now, play nice Pikey, and let's give Montana the bumps.

  122. Hey hank, have this:



  123. Have this also


    Ya bas.

  124. Hank -- over here, we get a birthday spanking. :-)

  125. That's good, BW.

    You up for a drink in the next few weeks? If so, drop me or MF a line, mate.

    Still love this performance, even though the fucking man won't release the full visual experience to the masses...


    Out of practice at hyperlinking so if you can remind me how to do it, I'll be happy to youtube-duel with ya for an hour or two (-;

  126. @Montana - it's only half a birthday, but even so you probably deserve a spanking. Some of your regulars think so anyway (-;

  127. This is about unrequieted love. And I LOVE it.

    (Thanks to Martillo btw, about a year ago.)


  128. Linkies please, BW, or I'm heading back over to Marina's blog where I'm in demand....

  129. Oh for FUCK's sake. You're very demanding.

    Too proud to beg ?

  130. MW - that's not available this side of the pond - got an alternative link ?


  131. BW - Uniques was good, but shit, man, the Temptations version of Aint Too Proud To Beg is one of my very fave trax. Outstanding.

    Remind me, BW, or MH, how to do the linky things, ahref...no?

  132. Hank:

    {a href="URL goes here"}text goes here{/a}

    just use < and > instead of { and }

  133. luvthisstill

    It fucking gets ya fucking down...

  134. Montana
    Nice one !!!

    Here's some of my faves. Show of Hands. if only that prick Kohn had a clue what he was talking about the other day.

    Some true English heritage right heree.

  135. Oy Hank, have you fallen off your chair ?

  136. Bitterweed - loved the Show of Hands. Are they Cornish? I noticed (and just got done listening to) a song called "Cousin Jack"

  137. Also, MW, get this. I really don't think it gets any better ...

    Fucking Marek Kohn. Lazy arsed, no-research, no-evidence based cunting North London identity industry slob, associating these guys with the BNP. The idiot

    It's like he called my dad a Tory. Cunt.

  138. This comment has been removed by the author.

  139. BW -- not sure that last link was what you intended. It was more Show of Hands.

  140. I think Hank must've decided to go flirt with Mazza.

  141. MW
    It was meant to be SoH, to prove what a fuckwit Kohn is, it's beautiful.

  142. Oh, damn I can be thick. Re-reading what you said, I understand that now. I didn't read the Kohn piece -- I had a feeling it would make me angry.

    Didn't see anyone familiar on Mazza's thread, but that woman is wasted on the ShowBiz blog.

  143. MW
    Remember our conversation about ethnicity, and 'folk' and the unimportance of an 'English culture'. The cock Kohn knows not the first thing.

    That link right there, above... says it all. No guilt, no shame, no agrandisement... just the beuaty of a story well told.

    If only, for just one night, I could meet those self-serving Oxbridge pricks on the Guardian and just lay it out...

  144. BW -- agree with 3:14 comment. Mazza = Marina Hyde

  145. Oh, thanks, will take a look.
    Meanwhile, this is really good.

  146. Frankly, BW, it boggles my mind that anyone would try to discount the existence and importance of English culture. Nothing racist about being proud of Englishness. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Marlowe, Shelley, etc. Where do they fit in? Are they not part of English culture?

  147. Best ever John Lee song, btw

  148. Heh, nice indeed. Just read the mazza bit. quality.

    Now, for no apparent reason at all, here's this.


  149. Ok guys, roll a big bifta, and prepare for a night ride accross the Caucusses... this is from mad pixie elf Loreena McKennitt, and frankly, deserves a Nobel prize for earnest nuttyness. Beautiful, nonetheless.

  150. Oh, my. I'd forgotten all about her. Lovely.

  151. Great stuff MW.

    You KNEW about Loreena McKennitt ?!! Mrs Bitterweed's had the cd for ten years, and I've never seen or heard of her anywhere else. Rest of the album's so-so, but that one is eternally interesting. Weird.

    I'm sure she's got some Ofra Haza somewhere too.

  152. Oh yeah. I used to have that cd. I also had the cd that the Ofra Haza song I linked to is from (called Shaday, as it happens). They were both stolen when the apartment my son and I lived in just after he was born was broken into (we were here for my grandmother's funeral).

  153. The Kings, yeh, good.
    That Ofra Haza though... fantastic. Thanks.

    Have this then... his majesty Jeff Beck

  154. Sorry about the break in, where wa 'here' ?

  155. Iowa. Lived in Seattle when sprog was born. Moved back here when he was two. Grandmother died when he was 7 mos old.

  156. Lene Lovich, like it, reminds me of school ;-)

    In other news here's the finest vocal performance ever recorded on our planet.

    Not bad for a jewish girl

  157. Damn. That was too good to follow-up with the smartarse response I was going to follow-up with.

  158. Sorry, Bitterweed just went into a plumbing frenzy then, and is not altogether convinced he's friends with the upstairs cistern at the moment. Back now though.

  159. It really is amazing isn't it ?

  160. I am no longer mates with my upstairs cistern.

  161. I'm afraid I was brought up to find her rather irritating.

    Not my favourite performance of this, but the song makes me cry every single time.

  162. BW -- the too good to follow up was a reference to Jeff Beck. I'm afraid I find Babs appreciation a bit tricky. I understand what you mean about it, really I do. But it's something visceral with me. Dunno what.

  163. BW -- I'm going to have to say good-night. Sprog needs attention.

  164. MW
    As I write, I am listenitng to Strange Fruit. It is of a dfferent order.

    The conceited passions of life are as of nothing when up against the cancerous human illness of bigotry.

    I think that's why we all come here.

    Meanwhile, here's Dennis Wilson. Who knew ?!

  165. Bittterweed: I thought you knew the cistern was corrupt.

    Off to the Skye hills bye!


  166. Come and see the violence inherent in the cistern!