27 July 2009

Daily Chat 27/07/09


Jesuit priest Francis Xavier arrived in Japan on this day in 1549. Tich Freeman became the only bowler ever to take 200 first class wickets before the end of July in 1928. Bugs Bunny was introduced to the world in the animated short A Wild Hare in 1940 and in 1981, Ken Barlow married Deirdre Langton on Coronation Street. Notable birthdays today: Shirley Williams, Bobbie Gentry, Christopher Dean and Jonathan Rhys Myers. It is National Sleepyhead Day in Finland.

180 comments:

  1. Oh my word! Fantastic photo!
    And love sleepyhead day... What a fab idea!

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  2. Christ, that’s a scary picture (sorry to disagree kiz, but debate is always healthy...)

    “it’s National Sleepyhead Day in Finland”

    Is it? Where do you find all this stuff, Montana?

    And who do we know in Finland we’d all like to wish a happy day in bed to?

    Waking up and getting up has never been easy...

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  3. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sleepy_Head_Day

    National Sleepy Head Day (Finnish: unikeonpäivä) is celebrated in Finland on July 27 every year. Traditionally on this day, the last person in the house (also dubbed as the 'laziest') to wake up is woken up using water, either by being thrown into a lake or the sea, or by having water thrown on them.[1] It is based on the story of the Saints of Ephesus who slept in a cave for some 200 years during the Middle Ages whilst hiding from persecution by Decius, the Roman Emperor at the time.[2]

    In the city of Naantali, a Finnish celebrity is chosen every year to be thrown in the sea from the city's port at 7 a.m. The identity of the sleeper is kept secret until the event. People who are chosen have usually done something to the benefit of the city. Every city mayor has thus far been thrown to the sea at least once, but other sleepers have included the president Tarja Halonen's husband, Dr Pentti Arajärvi, the CEO of Neste Oil Risto Rinne, along with many writers, artists and politicians. The celebrations continue into the evening in Naantali and include activities for people of every age.

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  4. Finland is the only country in Europe with a higher rate of recorded knife crime than Scotland, no idea why that is.

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  5. That'll be all those Scots taking the ferry to Finland at the weekend ;0)

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  6. The visitor traffic used to be all the other way my lord - flights of icelandic ladies arriving in Edinburgh going 'Ah, Debenhams!'


    The average Glasgow ned would faint at the price of Icelandic booze.

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  7. Check out the number of firearms (legal and illegal) per capita in Finland and compare with the US. There was a tragic US-style school shooting not so long ago. Finland really have a good PR machine to portray themselves as some sort of tolerant Shangri La. The reality is somewhat different.

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  8. Interestingly, Fins regularly take weekend trips to St Petersburg to get absolutely wasted on 1/10 price booze. I have it on good authority the Russians affectionately refer to the Finish visitors as "our four legged friends".

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  9. Good point, Edwin. I recall a documentary that discussed how Scandanavia was pricing booze out of existence.

    Anonymous ... the PR machine is called Comment Is Free. If I see another article recommending a change to UK society on the grounds that "they do it that way in Sweden" I'll go postal.

    I'll have to go to Finland to get the gun though.

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  10. Isn't Ultima from Finland ? Anyone ?

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  11. Yes, Bitterweed. I believe she is.

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  12. She certainly is.

    CIF is a permanent homage to Sweden.

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  13. 'Hello again..... time to lower the tone'

    posed the troll

    'Ever looked at those familiar faces on:

    www.freemsonrywatch.org ?????

    'Best to ignore such stuff'

    said the wise fool

    'its not like such people occupy a significant (if not disproportionate) number of positions of power and authority'


    'No'

    said the cynic

    'now who's reputed to be a 32° Prince Hall free mason again?'


    'Can't remember'

    posed the little boy

    'Oh bummer'

    PS

    'Ever heard of Common Purpose? '

    posed the rhetorical question generator

    No?

    ...........Best ignore it. Not important.

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  14. "CIF is a permanent homage to Sweden."

    It's the cherry picking that annoys me a bit. For instance ( I never knew this ) men have been prosecuted for rape, in Sweden,
    solely on the woman's testimony.

    http://www.thelocal.se/20890/20090724/

    Two have since been overturned on the basis that, there wasn't any actual evidence. CiF never points stuff out like this.

    Mendoza

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  15. Hi everyone. LordSummerisle's eminently sensible comment about Denis Macshane which had been deleted should be reappearing any moment now.

    Oh and Pikey (and everyone else) - get back to Cif!

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  16. Yes, that's part of it, Mendoza.

    The other part of it is that they never consider that maybe the good bits about Swedish society work because they're part of a whole package. For example, Sweden can afford to do certain things that we simply can't in the UK because they have higher levels of personal taxation and greater support for the social uses that tax is put to.

    Just lifting something that looks good and hoping to graft it onto UK society and have it take is a recipe for failure.

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  17. Thanks, Inayat. I can hardly believe my eyes!

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  18. I asked Matt about it and he said he would speak to the mods about it. He got back to me a few minutes later to say that the mods had made a mistake.

    I have also had a couple of comments deleted in the past and when I have looked into it, I found it was because of legal issues (which to be fair was probably right!!). Your comment about Macshane though seemed to be perfectly reasonable so I am glad they have revisited that decision.

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  19. the mods had made a mistake

    But mods *never* make mistakes...

    Certaintly can't go back to CiF now, not if they have mods who make mistakes...

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  20. In which case I'm much obliged for your help, Inayat. It was very kind of you to take the time.

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  21. Nenya1984 wins the "clueless about why men might not find me all that attractive an option" post of the month award - see Bunting's thread.

    Inayat - well done!

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  22. No - as the matter involved Macshane, it was a labour of love, trust me.

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  23. Re tax levels - it has always amused me that the 'British' whine about taxes when the minimum level is 20% (previously 10%). I paid my income tax when I worked in UK, and I pay my income tax now that I live in Denmark - and now that's minimum rate 42%, and upwards depending on your wage. On the other hand, I recognize that the Danish state provides decent health care, public transport, child-care, free university education etc etc for my kroner. I could bitch about the heavy tax burden, but I'm quite happy to pay more than half my nett wage to support a system that basically works. In the UK people seem so selfish - they simply won't pay the level of tax that is found in Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc etc. They want the services but they won't pay for them. Maybe Thatcher was right with her 'no society' speech, depressing as it sounds. She was probably right in that she identified an absence of solidarity which is very evident today.

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  24. "No - as the matter involved Macshane, it was a labour of love, trust me."

    In this sort of form you'll have to come here more often, old boy. Macshane is a fascinatingly odious creature, though for some reason he and his wife are very popular at Graun Towers.

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  25. You're not Inayat. You're an imposter. The real Inayat would know that Matt Seaton has no contact with or influence over the mods or indeed moderation policy.

    Either you're an imposter 'Inayat' or Mr Seaton has been economic, even downright stingy with the truth on multiple occasions. That said, you certainly sound like Inayat...which means Seaton's just a bare-faced compulsive liar.

    In other 'shock' revelations...Shergar's still missing and the wood's still stink of bear shit.

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  26. Quite right, scherfig.

    Thatcher's "no society" speech was just one wrong end of an argument with two wrong ends, IMHO. There are some things government is good at and some things it's not so good at. We should pay willingly to let it do the former and raise merry hell when they try to get involved in the latter.

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  27. Inayat

    How very nice to see you here and thanks for helping LordS out - perhaps they'll reinstate my post agreeing with him now.

    Sherfiq

    I agree about British meanness and lack of solidarity - wanting everything laid on for 'themselves' but whining about having to pay for it for the greater good, it's a great national shame. And the better off should expect to shoulder more of the burden. I'd gladly (well perhaps not quite 'gladly' - but willingly) pay more tax if it meant better public services.

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  28. Dot & Jay - you two have me in stitches on Waddya!

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  29. Hang on a minute - we are taxed to the hilt; you talk of base rate taxation, but what about NI, council tax, vat, road tax, insurance tax, petrol tax... Add it all up and I find it hard to believe that anyone who works is contributing a lower proportion of earned income than anyone on earth... It's a damn sight more than 42% I'll tell you that. Of GDP it was 39% a couple of years ago, versus 50%ish for the Scandos. But that is GDP with fully 40% of the populace being non-contributors...

    And when you add in the increases we're going to have to sheel out simply to fund Gordon's borrowing...

    I wouldn't mind paying Scando direct tax levels if I got a Scando type society - but that isn't on offer and never will be.

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  30. "Now get back to CiF !"
    A neat way of clearing out the undesriables.

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  31. Thauma: I had a look at Nenya1984's comments on her profile (didn't want to sift through Bunty's thread). She's a prize. Oddly, in one of her older comments, she refers to her partner & says she makes more money than he. WTF am I doing wrong? Am I too nice?

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  32. Dunno, Montana, you'll have to ask one of the (inferior) enemy.

    I'll have to have a look at her profile myself, just to see what other pearls of wisdom might have been dropped.

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  33. Ugh - what a load of consistently unpleasant posts!

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  34. Thauma
    Where ? I may have alook tonight if it's worth a punt.

    Christ know who I'll be posting as though Matt

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  35. http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/nenya1984

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  36. "You're not Inayat. You're an imposter. The real Inayat would know that Matt Seaton has no contact with or influence over the mods or indeed moderation policy."

    I don't think it's ever been claimed that Matt has no contact with mods!
    He forwarded on Inayat's query, following it up I had a look at LordSummerisle's comment and saw that it had indeed been taken down in error. Apologies dfor the inconvenience LordS.

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  37. Montana, have a dekko at Ally's post on Waddya....

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  38. Aiee! Invasion of the Mods!!

    \o/

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  39. Thanks CiF Mods Are Everwhere ... though if that's true then I'm never going to the toilet again, ever!!

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  40. Cif mods are everywhere

    so are Untrusted rockers

    see you on Brighton beach

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  41. We see all, thaumaturge

    Seeing all, and knowing all, are two entirely different things.

    I'm reminded of the common epithet:"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can neither do nor teach, nor tie their own shoelaces, nor tell a joke, nor contribute novel or innovative ideas or thinking, nor sustain an argument without recourse to unfounded assumptions or peer defence, who can't walk the streets exposed and identifed, but would rather crouch in the shadows feeding on rotting meat like a jackal, those whose sole function in life is to strike down the words and opinions of anyone who might threaten their paymasters or the pitiful lies that sustain their positions, who mercilessly and randomly and cretinously tear apart the finely crafted conversations and discussions of their social, intellectual and sexual betters... Mod.

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  42. Of course some people are just cranky when their piles act up.


    "Seeing all, and knowing all, are two entirely different things"


    one is for cif mods, the other for MoveAnyMountain

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  43. LOL at Mr PB. Glad you are posting here cos we miss you on CiF

    And welcome to Inyat, too.

    Re taxes: I, too, don't mind paying more taxes if things work. I lived in France for over 7 years and was stunned by the public services over there. Best subsidised health care service in the world, imo. (Although apparently Sarko has been trying to whittle away at it).

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  44. Thanks thaumaturge

    She's a gem isn't she ? I'd rather nail my cock to a burning orphanage than date her.

    I see the trolls are in.

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  45. BW - stop making me splutter at work - I'm getting funny looks! :-D

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  46. who mercilessly and randomly and cretinously tear apart the finely crafted conversations and discussions of their social, intellectual and sexual betters... Mod.

    Heartfelt poetry Frank...I feel your pain.

    Have you actually shagged any mods or is the 'sexual betters' reference an assumption?

    About the taxes and the grubby little country we currently inhabit. I may not be optimstic any more but still have residualhope for better times and well used taxes.

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  47. Frank I tried posting on your blog a few days ago - I tapped in for about 10 mins and when I posted, the comment vaporised. Was only hot air anyway.

    What is that rubbish 60s group 'Inayat and the Mods' doing here? I assume they are impostors, though I rather like the idea of the school prefects slinking over to the wasteland to see what the bad boys and girls are doing.

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  48. Have you actually shagged any mods or is the 'sexual betters' reference an assumption?

    Shag a mod? Ewwwwww.

    Well I was just assuming that anyone who went into the Modding game was a desperate social inadequate with performance issues.

    Now, I speak as a social inadequate myself but my other talents enable me to - mostly - hide this. However, I can imagine a world in which my humour, intelligence, dashing good looks and sexual magnatism were somehow missing; all I'd have would be the bitterness, fear, loneliness and borderline alcoholism - naturally I'd turn to a career in Modding. Either that or some involvement in scat porn I imagine, but as there's only so much demand for that, I guess being a Mod is the only option.

    It's tragic really.

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  49. Yeah sorry about that Edwin, I'd got the spam filter turned up to 11 - been getting about 500 comments a day from russian bots and hadn't took enough time to figure out all the options. If you try posting again you should be okay now - I've put something else in.

    Many apologies - I know how annoying that can is.

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  50. "Well I was just assuming that anyone who went into the Modding game was a desperate social inadequate with performance issues."

    That's us alright. High five!

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  51. Edwin

    Now we've got them behind the bike sheds what shall we do with them?

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  52. OK Frank had a quick look - will try later once I've read the Afghan blog.

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  53. 'Now we've got them behind the bike sheds what shall we do with them?'

    Ah,

    - puncture their self-esteem
    - put a spoke in their wheels
    - laugh at their useless frames
    - point at them and say 'oh for fork's sake'

    !

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  54. You behind the bike sheds - stand still, laddie!

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  55. Ok mod, if you've got time on your hands, how about you explain your moderation policy related to all the bizarre, arbitrary deletions, bannings and premoderations, say, that have been raised by various complainants on all the threads appearing here since February ? Go, on stop pissing around and justify yourself you nitwit.

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  56. cifmod

    Since you seem to be having a quiet afternoon on cif - this would be a good opportunity to do some explaining as anon above has asked.

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  57. I'm afraid I wouldn't have the time to discuss every complaint since February, Anonymous!
    There are occasions (as with LordSummerisle's post mentioned above) where comments are removed erroneously. Moderation is not a precise science and there's unfortunately going to be instances of human error.
    However, the vast majority of all deletions, bannings and premoderations are carried out in line with the community standards and participation guidelines (http://www.guardian.co.uk/community-standards).
    People often complain that moderation is applied inconsistently - the thing is, as the Guardian website is post-moderated, there's always (unless we employ hundreds more moderators) going to be things that go under the radar. If you look at some other comparable sites that are pre-moderated (I believe the BBC site and the Daily Mail's both are,) I think our approach is a lot less restrictive.

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  58. Oi mods, go back to CIF and fix it, the comments aren't loading, AGAIN!

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  59. Yep, sorry Dotterel. The tech people are on to it.

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  60. CIF mods are in the tardis27 July, 2009 17:57

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  61. The Truth Is Out About Moderation27 July, 2009 18:14

    You cite "comparable sites" as being the BBCs and the Daily Mail's.

    Really ? Jesus fucking wept. no wonder you delete the free thinking and the critical remarks, the well worked through arguments and the analytical retorts. You just want "speke your branes" type loonos.

    Hoisted by your own petard matey. The truth is out.

    So THAT's why you kill off all the best ones.

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  62. "You cite "comparable sites" as being the BBCs and the Daily Mail's."

    Yes, that is to say, large UK-based websites that invite user comments. It would be ridiculous if we were really in the business of removing "well worked through arguments and the analytical retorts" - but I'm sure you don't really believe that's the case

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  63. The Truth Is Out About Moderation27 July, 2009 18:24

    "but I'm sure you don't really believe that's the case"

    I have seen it plenty of times matey, and from most of the regular psoters here, but you crack on with your milk monitorish ways. It suits you.

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  64. Sorry you feel that way TTIOAM. Would you like some extra milk to cheer you up?

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  65. The Truth Is Out About Moderation27 July, 2009 18:37

    CIF mod
    The way you said "but I'm sure you don't really believe that's the case", the inherent oily smugness was pure Matt Seatton.

    Now as you're only posting here as a rather wet little PR stunt, and against all the evidence of the people who set this site up, I shall treat you as the troll you really are, and ignore you from now on. Protocol suggests you can have the last word. I'm sure everyone will be thrilled when you get to it.

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  66. You could have typed the word "harrumph" there.

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  67. (would have been a bit more succinct)

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  68. Does anyone fancy taking bets on the real identities of CIF Mod and The Truth Is Out About Moderation?

    There are some very familiar sentence constructions in those posts ....

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  69. BTW - I'm off in a mo, but I'll check back later on if anyone's got any general questions about modding and/or some more imaginative abuse to throw my way.

    (My guesses on TTIOAM are either MrPB, Jay or HankScorpio)

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  70. I was a milk monitor once.

    *sigh* "Maggie Thatcher, Milk Snatcher". My nana used to rant about that for hours on end if you got her started.

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  71. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  72. Ah well, even I can't be right all the time. Or some of it even!

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  73. Lovely to see Inayat and frank and a cif mod... Don't be rude to the cif mod just because it's a mod... that's just common!

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  74. Frank, re tax, you do talk some bollocks.
    'Hang on a minute - we are taxed to the hilt; you talk of base rate taxation, but what about NI, council tax, vat, road tax, insurance tax, petrol tax... '.

    Do you think that these these things don't exist in other European countries? VAT, for example, is 25% in Denmark, and this is on everything - including books and food and children's stuff (I'm thinking about the outrage about VAT on various stuff in the UK -'think about the children!) If you had any grasp of how things are in reality, then I might take your polemics relatively seriously. As it is, you merely reveal yourself as a fucking idiot.

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  75. Cif Mod, I think you're wrong on at least two of those guesses (but I'm just speculating).

    Kudos for coming on here, but we do see deletion of well-thought-out posts that may happen to criticise some ATL writers.

    Posts that are spam or sheer vitriol - fair enough. Especially if the vitriol is against other BTL posters - the ATL writers are getting paid and (within reason) it's part of the job description to take a bit of abuse, I reckon.

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  76. Are you sure comments are back? Cos that's not what my 'puter says.

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  77. Not me, i been eating and having a bit of guitar hero.

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  78. Though if it really is one of the mods, shouldnt they be fixing CIF rather than mingling on the UT? The comments are buggered, as usual.

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  79. cif comments seem to be working again.

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  80. Comments are back for me. Took a while though.

    Guitar Hero, Jay? Why not just, you know, buy a guitar? ;o)

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  81. Me and the ovver arf have just been talking about Henry Porter's thread about bouncers giving out spot fines.

    I'm off to France for a coupla weeks next month. I might claim asylum while I'm there....

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  82. BB - I'm off to Chamonix in early September. Shall we claim asylum together?

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  83. Sheff - ooh.... never been to Chamonix. Sounds like a plan, though, eh? :o)

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  84. BB & sheffpixie
    Will that be the end of the wine lake then, with 2 of the UT over there?

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  85. Jonathan Rhys Meyers - wow. Hope he comes back soon as Henry VIII. The series is pure fiction but who cares when Henry is such a dish? Almost worth going to the Tower for.

    Right have to calm down now and go and wash my hair.

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  86. MsChin - I will try my best to at least drain it by a good few inches...

    Sitting here with a bottle of St Emilion atm. On a school night too. Pah. I deserve it. :o)

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  87. "However, the vast majority of all deletions, bannings and premoderations are carried out in line with the community standards and participation guidelines"

    That is such bullshit.

    Moderation is carried out according to cif's bias and prejudice guidelines, not its community standards. I expect a paper to push an editorial stance by the pieces it publishes, not by the the comments it deletes.

    That is one of several reasons why I've left cif and have no real interest in going back (no, I don't use another name), and I'm speaking as someone who was very rarely moderated.

    Cif was once a great site. Now its shit.

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  88. MsC

    With BB and me on the hallowed territory expect you can kiss goodbye to any wine lakes

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  89. BB/Thauma
    I'm making my way down a very acceptable Argentinian Shiraz as we speak. have had most of the week off to paint the house and have more or less done it - so am rewarding myself.

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  90. Sealion
    Indeed. All good stuff mate.

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  91. Excellent! Winos of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your livers! :o)

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  92. 'Weapons of Mass Mud Aeration?'

    posed the troll

    'Very good at clearing the decks before an ''intense'' election campaign between assorted amoeba like creatures begin to subdivide publicly?'

    'And the independent poster's 'brands' must not get bigger than the real in-house thinkers......'

    posed the troll clone

    'but that's hardly a real challenge when you've got people of the quality of .............................
    .....................................................
    .......................................................
    .......................................................
    ......................................................?'

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  93. "Guitar Hero, Jay? Why not just, you know, buy a guitar?"

    I already have a sumptuous US strat, its really quite beautiful. The GHero purchase was at the Tv breakers request, she needs entertaining. LordS, consider yourself scorned.

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  94. Hmmm.... The council have finally delivered some new recycling boxes (the last ones got nicked - we have a higher class of criminal round here).

    This is not a good thing. I now have a box in my hall which makes it abundantly clear that in the last 7 days I've had 4 bottles of wine and 6 tins of beans. I liked being in denial. It was nice.

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  95. Sealion - a pathetic record. You'll have to do better.

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  96. Oh sealion - presented with the evidence every time you pass through the hall. I keep my empties in a large (very large) bag in the cellar head. Am always horrified when i drag it out to recycle them.

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  97. OK - who's going to start a book on whether this bloke gets off...

    "When interviewed by police, Mr Brindley claimed he had "automatically" stuck the knife in to his wife after she taunted and humiliated him, jurors heard.

    He said he stabbed her further times to "shut her up" because she would not stay still and quiet while he phoned for an ambulance. "

    Uhuh...

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  98. Sealion

    Nice rant...cracker, in fact..especially liked this bit:

    "...its shit."

    it's like "you write what we're all thinking"

    CIF MOD

    I've got a question. Why do people become mods? Is it like a stepping stone to better things for non oxbridge types who want a real job with the Guardian? What's the typical career progression for ex mods? Do you get to write something eventually?

    It must be pretty galling watching all those self-regarding young graduates come on and strut their lamentable stuff. Then you've gotta clear up the mess when they so spectacularly fuck up.

    Don't you ever sit there thinking "what a pile of shit...I could do better in my sleep?

    There must have been some articles you felt like deleting? Go on...your secret's safe here. What was the worst...one of Polly's I bet?

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  99. Jay

    Joan Armatrading and Mark Knopfler were on Radio4 this afternoon discussing guitary type things with musical interludes - it was good although I don't know an F sharp from a B flat.

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  100. (Just to clarify - that isn't one of my cases, it's off the Beeb website.)

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  101. Oh yeah

    And..why was 'cuntface' instantly banned after two posts when there's a 'HitlerYouth' posting away ad nauseam?

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  102. Sheff - heard the trailer for that. I should see if I can get it on Listen Again.

    Last year we took the lad and his mate to see Knopfler at the Albert Hall. Beloved had got some tix from someone at work, and they were second row, centre front. So awesome.

    Needless to say the lad and mate spent all their time being geeky about the different guitars, amps, etc.

    I cried when he played "Brothers In Arms" - big Jessie that I am. We played that song in the car on the way to my grandad's funeral in 87. He was in the Somme at the age of 16. Always makes me cry...

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  103. That's a bloody good point, MF. And Ilsa Koch too. Far more offensive than cuntface.

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  104. He said he stabbed her further times to "shut her up" because she would not stay still and quiet while he phoned for an ambulance. "

    BB - Got to be provocation -went on nagging him even when effectively dead. I'll put a fiver on him getting off or a suspended sentence at most.

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  105. Hasn't the provocation law been changed, or has that not happened yet?

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  106. LOL Sheff. :o)

    Some of the "defences" you hear are a right laugh though. I had just finished on a quick "housekeeping" hearing one morning, and one of my mates was about to start a trial, so I stayed behind and did my paperwork in court to see what the trial was about.

    Turned out to be a sexual assault by penetration, and the judge was asking my friend what the defence was. I was trying so hard not to laugh as he explained that his client had fallen over and inadvertantly penetrated the victim with two fingers as he fell on top of her....

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  107. MFish/BB - It's the lack of consistency that gets me too. Perhaps the baby mods are just too young to get the references.

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  108. Provocation still exists, Sealion, but it is a bloody hard one to prove, frankly. Let's face it, what jury is going to believe that the guy stabbed her because she wouldn't keep quiet, after stabbing her the first time?

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  109. Michael Stone had a good one: busting in to stormont with some pipebombs and a gun was 'performance art'.

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  110. Ah BB - inadvertant penetration - reminds me of the bloke who turned up at A&E with a large, red plastic strawberry stuck up his bum and another who'd got his dick stuck down a vacuum cleaner hose. Have a mate who was a doctor in A&E for a while - the things people penetrate themselves and others with are really quite amazing.

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  111. Sheff - fair dos, except you would have to be brain dead not to get the HitlerYouth reference...oh... wait....

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  112. Struggling to remember, but weren't Harman and Baird trying to remove the 'nagging and shagging' defence, essentially trying to stop provocation being used as a mitigating circumstance in DV cases?

    Did she live?

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  113. "Joan Armatrading and Mark Knopfler were on Radio4 this afternoon discussing guitary type things with musical interludes "

    I might have a look on iplayer for that, knopflers quality...

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  114. BB
    Failing the 'red mist' argument winning the case for him, the accused pensioner'll plead dementia, so having something 'medical' to blame, as well as his injured wife's uncooperative behaviour.
    On the sexual assault case - uugh, what a bastard (ie: perpetrator, case, everything). Must be really hard defending the despicable, but I suppose someone's got to do it ...

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  115. sealion
    I think that you mean changing the law so that women who kill their partners after experiencing sustained abuse over a period of time will be able to plead provocation re: the murder charge or face a lesser charge of manslaughter - something like that, anyway.
    Don't think it's in yet.

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  116. sealion
    Re; the law change, here it is:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/29/law.ukcrime

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  117. Jay - they talked musicy type stuff and Knopfler sounded like a really great bloke - very unaffected and besotted by guitars. Played some slide stuff that made my knees melt.

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  118. I'll have to tune in, sheff, might make my knees stop making that stiff creaking sound ..

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  119. Thanks MsChin... will be interesting to see how it plays out in the courts.

    Either way, I'm not sure 'automatic stabbing' is going to become a new defence tactic. Picking up a knife in an argument is only justifiable if you're in genuine fear for your life, as far as I'm concerned. I hope they throw the book at him.

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  120. Ok, as thauma suggested, I'm going to go up my bean intake, then get on with the decorating. See ya later.

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  121. The amazing thing about knopfler is he plays as if the guitar is just an extension of his arm. No leaping about the stage doing the guitar hero bit - he just stands there and plays effortlessly. Awesome.

    MsChin - the inadvertant penetrater was convicted. Didn't stop me taking the piss out of my mate Tom for defending him though. The thing is, if that is what the client tells you, you have to run with it whether you believe them or not. You are only compromised if they tell you they actually did it but want to plead not guilty any way, in which case you withdraw or make it clear to them that their case is fucked, because you are not allowed to mislead the court and won't be able to put their case.

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  122. BB - Well that's my fiver down the swanee then. Good decision though. How long did he get?

    I think Knopfler is very modest with his gifts.

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  123. Good decision though. How long did he get?
    .. and here's hoping he was inadvertently penetrated after slipping on the soap in the prison showers.

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  124. Three years, if my memory serves. He had previous too.

    LOL at LordS.

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  125. Re: slipping on soap in prison showers

    Any of you remember me talking about the former Chief & Asst. Chief of Police in my town being convicted of sexual assault last spring? They were moved to a prison in another state last week because it was decided that they were in too much danger in a prison where there are inmates who were arrested by them. Damn. Most of us here were quite tickled with that very thought.

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  126. Given the effectiveness of jail bush telegraph Montana, they've probably had it where ever they end up. Gawd help them 'cos no one else will.

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  127. thaumaturge
    "We do see deletion of well-thought-out posts that may happen to criticise some ATL writers. Posts that are spam or sheer vitriol - fair enough. Especially if the vitriol is against other BTL posters - the ATL writers are getting paid and (within reason) it's part of the job description to take a bit of abuse, I reckon."

    I'm afraid we don't allow any abuse of ATL posters. There is, of course, a massive grey area between robust criticism and outright abuse, and as a rule we probably err on the side of caution. If it became known that any ATL writers were fair game for abuse, before long we'd have a hard time getting anyone at all to write for us.

    Sealion
    "Moderation is carried out according to cif's bias and prejudice guidelines, not its community standards."

    CIF doesn't have any biases and prejudices. It doesn't have any single viewpoint on any single topic - it encompases an enormous range of opinions. Moderators don't just plough through threads removing anything they disagree with - if we did, we'd get found out pretty quickly.

    "Cif was once a great site. Now its shit."

    I disagree.

    Monkeyfish
    "Why do people become mods? Is it like a stepping stone to better things for non oxbridge types who want a real job with the Guardian? What's the typical career progression for ex mods? Do you get to write something eventually?"

    I just fell into it. Most, but not all, mods I know who work for newspapers come from journalistic background. There's no typical career progression - I know some people who've gone on to be journalists, some who've gone on to do daunting sounding project management things for evil corporate giants. One I know went on to be a helicopter pilot.

    "It must be pretty galling watching all those self-regarding young graduates come on and strut their lamentable stuff. Then you've gotta clear up the mess when they so spectacularly fuck up."

    Are you talking about Max Gogarty? ;)

    "Don't you ever sit there thinking "what a pile of shit...I could do better in my sleep? There must have been some articles you felt like deleting? Go on...your secret's safe here. What was the worst...one of Polly's I bet?"

    As if I'd be so indiscrete!

    "And..why was 'cuntface' instantly banned after two posts when there's a 'HitlerYouth' posting away ad nauseam?"

    Cunt is one of the few words that's (almost) completely banned from comments. HitlerYouth probably ought to be banned by the sounds of it, unless he's being deliberately ironic with his username or something? I'll look into it (and Ilsa Koch BB)

    Sheffpixie
    "MFish/BB - It's the lack of consistency that gets me too. Perhaps the baby mods are just too young to get the references."

    As I said earlier, any lack of consistency generally means that something hasn't come to our attention yet.

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  128. Looks like he will be spending a very long time in solitary.

    Funnily enough, I have just seen another of my friend's updates on Facebook, and she has just got a conviction on a Met police officer who apparently punched someone's lights out while drunk and off duty, then flashed his badge when they tried to arrest him for it.

    Thank god they are finally taking this stuff a bit more seriously now. ACANNB (All cops are not necessarily bastards)

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  129. BB

    There's a fella round here known as ACAB as he has it tattooed on his forehead. I'll suggest to him that he gets the NN fitted in somehow.

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  130. I'm afraid we don't allow any abuse of ATL posters.
    Quite right too, CiF Mod.

    However, hypothetically speaking, would you have any sympathy with the suggestion that sometimes ATL posters appear to write stuff that's so deliberately provocative, or so lazily argued, that BTL posters might consider it insults their intelligence?

    Purely hypothetically, might you not agree that after a while this BTL poster of whom I hypothetically speak, might grow tired of playing the same ball time after time, and end up playing the man out of sheer frustration?

    I say this not because I think such behaviour right, but because I think there have been occasions when The Guardian should have demanded higher standards of its ATL writers. Had it done so, it might have been less frustration in its longer serving BTL posters.

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  131. Whoops!

    Had it done so, it might have seen less frustration in its longer serving BTL posters.

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  132. Sheff - as long as he has it tattooed in the right way, and not a mirror image :p

    Anyway...

    Boing!

    "Time for bed," said Zebedee

    Night night all. xx

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  133. Cunt is problematic. In England it's universally a term of abuse but in Scotland, Glasgow in particular it can be affirmative - as in "a cunt of a fitba player" meaning a brilliant footballer. Heard it used that way all the time although never quite got used to it and it's not a word I would ever use.

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  134. CiF Mod: Thanks for dropping by.

    A close friend of mine called traneroundthebanned e-mailed the team lunchtime Saturday with an enquiry.

    He doesn’t want his comment re-instated, he’d just like to know why it was deleted so he can avoid being put on the naughty step next time.

    Any chance he might get a response sometime? Even an acknowledgement would be nice...

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  135. Which address did you email to Andy?

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  136. That'll be Andy's friend there, CIF_mod. Easy mistake to make.

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  137. And it's a word that the CIF_mod can use here with impunity, but one that s/he would be modded for on her/his own site!

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  138. @Cif mod

    "CIF doesn't have any biases and prejudices."

    Thats amazing. I've gone all week and not heard a sentence so preposterous, but then again, I don't really visit Cif anymore so I probably missed out on quite a few. This is, after all, the website that publishes Joseph Harker and Julie Bindel.

    I think I, along with a lot of other people, said everything that was going to be said on the last big thread on moderation, so I'll not be repeating it here, but its worth noting that virtually none of our concerns were acted upon. No surprise, they never have been, and I don't know why I thought they would be, just optimism I guess. Alongside the biased and overzealous moderation, that was the reason I left: the editorial team never really cared about the community, and often gave every indication that they actively disliked us.
    I was a regular poster there for over 3 years, and in that time I've seen an increasing stream of intelligent, articulate posters get pissed off and leave. That doesn't happen when you get things right.
    So, if you don't mind me asking, why are you here?

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  139. Cif Mod: I'm glad you've chosen to come over here -- admire your courage. :-)

    I understand that modding will necessarily be inconsistent at times, since it all comes down to judgment calls. But I guess I kind of want to echo what LordS says above, about certain ATL pieces and the way the comments are moderated. Certain ATL writers seem to have 5 layers of bubblewrap around them.

    The other thing that astounds me sometimes and feels like an insult to my intelligence is the way we're expected to ignore things like, oh, finding out that the author of some egregiously bad ATL pieces happens to be married to a prominent Graun staff person. I don't care if an ATL piece is so well-written that it would make Tolstoy hang his head in shame, if it comes out that that person is married to a Graun editor, it is going to look like nepotism, pure and simple. It might be good policy to not commission ATL pieces from the spouses of Graun staff if the Graun doesn't want to be accused of nepotism.

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  140. Why is anybody... sealion?

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  141. CiF Mod: Thanks for your lightning quick response!

    I’ve just consulted with my friend, and he tells me it was

    cif.moderation@guardian.co.uk

    For some strange reason he may have sent it using a different e-mail address (mine, actually) from the one he used to set up his current ID (he’s a little forgetful at times), but he assures me he has made this mistake before and still got a response.

    Your colleagues Adam and Luke may recall a brief exchange a couple of weeks ago regarding trane’s pre-moderation.

    Sealion: he’s here to sort out my little problem (sorry, my friend’s little problem).

    Don’t be so bloody churlish ;-)

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  142. Don't agree wildhack to some extent.. I've got little problem with people connected to Graun staff getting a gig if their writing warrants it.. The problem is that editorial judgement can easily become clouded when it gets all too cosy... and 'that' has often been the case...

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  143. @Cif mod:

    Actually, I want to know if there's any restriction on you getting involved in the threads. I've seen a (very) few occasions where the 'Community mod' will post a comment asking people to tone it down or some such.

    Frankly, I always get a kick out of it, when it's done with a bit of humour and I think it would probably have the effect of (erm) 'moderating' the discussion a bit. I find that, on the threads where ATL writers aren't afraid to get in there BTL and engage with us, most of us respect & admire them for it and tone down our criticisms. (As long as they engage with respect -- I can think of one ATL writer whose tone BTL is so arrogant that he ends up pouring gasoline on the flames most of the time.) Heck, I've even softened my attitude towards Matt Seaton because I've seen comments from him BTL where he at least tried to engage with some humour. If the mods sometimes popped in to acknowledge a frustration or point out something that is going to cause a sure-fire deletion, I think it could only help.

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  144. "Why is anybody... sealion?"

    Do you mean: "what are they for?" or "how did they come to exist?"?

    I'm for avoiding being bored. I'm like a big mechanism that spends its time avoiding boredom.

    I came into existence because to do otherwise would be boring.

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  145. I'm not trying to be either rude or churlish. For someone to choose the name 'Cif Mod', they are linking their job to their presence, in a sense saying they speak on behalf of Cif moderation. If that's the case, I'm curious as to why.
    As to why I'm here, I assume for different reasons to Cif Mod, hence the question.

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  146. Kiz -- that's the problem, isn't it? Too hard for most people to see that something their spouse wrote is utter cack and too hard for a subordinate or even colleague to say, "Sorry, but your spouse is a talentless hack and this sounds like it was written by a 15 year-old."

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  147. MF -- I think Kiz was asking why any of us are here.

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  148. Sealion: sorry, “churlish” was a joke.

    I’m still hoping the guy will answer my question.

    He’s obviously gone to check the files, hasn’t he...?

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  149. 'As if I'd be so indiscrete!'


    Blimey - you're all homogenous and not in different pieces? (Post-modern deconstruction of this claim welcome here.) Do Cif mods not have to take spelling tests to get the job? Indiscrete/indiscreet - there's a huge difference in meaning there. Cif mod, you are Paul Sagar and I claim my five pounds- :o)

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  150. Andy - will chase it up tomorrow. If you don't here back do email in again and remind us.

    Sealion - thought it'd be nice to pop in and say hello, hopefully clear up any misconceptions about what mods do (it might not feel like it most of the time, but we're not the enemy)

    Montana/Kizbot - When it comes to things like perceived nepotism, I'm afraid we are just going to remove comments on that as they're generally off topic and likely to get the thread swiftly derailed.
    As for some writers seeming to get more protection than others - we've come to know which writers are more likely to get a kicking from commenters, so mods' attention is going to be more focused on those threads - for instance, anything written by a member (or recent former member) of the cabinet sets alarm bells ringing as people are often going to want to fling invectice rather than engage with the subject matter of the article.

    Nice to speak to you all, off to watch a film before bed

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  151. Well hopefully he's checking the WDYWTTA thread instead ..

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  152. scherfig
    Easy on the mod's spelling, they've worked a long shift today ;-)

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  153. CiF mod: thanks for that.

    My friend will certainly follow your advice.

    And thanks for coming over for a chat.

    Hope you don’t get in trouble for fraternising, even though (you’re right) we’re not really enemies :-)

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  154. CIF mod
    "If it became known that any ATL writers were fair game for abuse, before long we'd have a hard time getting anyone at all to write for us."
    There are hundreds of great writers out there, not least working on the Saturday Review. So why so many weak, articles repeating half-assed arguments by weak writers with little expertise and/or experience in their field (and I by no means mean this is about age) who are just asserting personal prejudices ? I open the Review Section on Saturday, and it is frankly, written by the calibre of people I’d like to see writing CiF articles, rather than journeyman journos rattling off what they seem to have merely heard about something.
    Take this lecture from Ilana Bet El, who frequently post highly pro-European pieces
    Thursday 25 June 2009 12.00
    "(The EU) is the most lethally political entity about: every decision starts from the council, which is made up of politicians, is passed on to the commission, which is headed by politicians, and then ratified by the parliament, which is by definition a political body."
    Now this is massively factually incorrect. Every decision starts at the Commission. A first year politics student should know that.
    The first wind-up was that an alleged Guardian expert who regularly derides anyone with the faintest doubts about the EU's democratic deficit as a rabid Europhobe. She’s lost my confidence as any sort of EU expert a long time ago, but this was the money shot
    The next was that a sub didn't pick it up. Clearly no-one checks facts in the subbing process, certainly not that morning, certainly not on Cif. Why ?
    The third biggest wind-up was how this was allowed to stand, after a number of posts pointing out the rather important error; posts which then themselves got deleted ?
    There have been many examples of this on CiF; a completely flawed premise, due to the ignorance or laziness of the writer, lack of gumption on part of the subbing staff, and then overprotective moderation. It makes the site well worth avoiding or an abject of passing derision, or both.
    I hope you understand something of the grievances then, rather than think you're merely here to placate a baying gang of ignoramuses and paranoiacs. And that as you've lost some of your best posters for the above described combination of flaws inherent in CiF’s management, some of whom rock up here occasionally; you ought to learn from it and improve CiF rather than just shield your eyes and repeat the moderation policy.
    Or maybe CiF just isn’t the right place for people who, in their nature, are robustly critical of anything that offends the intellect. Surely you don’t want this. Do you ?

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  155. fraternising?

    Isn't there a more feminist way of saying that, that's proper inclusive, like?

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  156. Hobnobbing? Or is that one nob too many?

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  157. "(The Eu) is the most lethally political entity about"

    Is that a Freudian or a Marxist slip, Bitterweed?

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  158. MsChin: what about saying he’s getting down wit de sistren and de bredren?

    I suspect my spellings TOTALLY fucked, but I don’t often write those words down. And I’ve switched my spell check to English (Caribbean); no bloody help...

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  159. That should say * spelling's *, obviously. What will our visitor think?

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  160. Some good suggestions for my alternative to fraternising question, but I'm still stumped for one myself! I mean womanising's taken, as it were, and filialing sounds like a sexual perversion ..

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  161. MsChin: would it help if we made you an honorary frat?

    Or what about something derived from the non-gender-specific word *sibling*?

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  162. soror is the Latin for sister, so maybe sororising?

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  163. You sure sibling's agendered, andysays?
    We might have to see what sherfig says later ..

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  164. MsChin: well, if you spell his name like that, he’s bound to get a little confused re gender.

    Goodnight, BTH, hope you climb out of your hole soon :-)

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  165. 'Night from me to those of us who are left ..

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