30 September 2010



  1. Bit late, so I thought I'd borrow a demotivator from the good folks at Despair, Inc..

    I particularly loved this one, but didn't think it would be legible if I put it up as an image here.

    Have a great Thursday, folks.

  2. Morning Montana!

    I like despair Inc.! And i like the demotivator!

  3. OK - off to have a hot chocolate innna French petit dejuner kind of way ;)

  4. Morning peeople.

    Been insanely busy; sorry haven't posted local accomodation stuff. Basically I haven't used it nor have my cohort, but would suggest B&Bs in "Abington" Northampton due to proximity to the bash and it's an ok area.

    Chekhov's already bagged some space chez bitters, but I still have room for a couple more. Lemme know ! Email me if you have specific requirements.

    OK, got to go, back later.

  5. Can I be a pain and ask someone to post the name of the pub and the street? TIA.

  6. Peter
    Charles Bradlaugh


    3pm onwards !

  7. I love Autumn. Oddly enough it's the fag end of summer that is more likely to see me off colour. The crispness of an Autumn day, the splendour of Autumn colours in the forest, that woody smell. Keeling over head first as you slip on all those wet conkers as I nearly did yesterday. Said conkers hitting you in the

    Eerily quiet here today.So i'll try and liven things up with the above quote from 'Scunthorpes Finest' waxing lyrical about some of his/her favourite things-cue Julie Andrews!

  8. The Bruppet is pathetically trying to stir up a fight for some attention.

    More interestingly, there's an endearingly bonkers poster called Ooze (never come across him before) on Andrew Brown's prayer thread and a load of right-wingers propagating false stats on the Walshe thread.

  9. Hey Thauma, the offer of me saying anything anyone wants to say on CiF, but can't, still stands. Getting banned for good would stop me wasting time shouting at dickheads.

  10. I'll bear it in mind, Habib! Needs saving for a special occasion.

  11. A message from Bulgaria for all the cowering sisters here

    This is the beginning of the “agricultural new year”. On this day, the autumn sowing starts all over Bulgaria. Early in the morning, the housewife cleans the house, scrubs the wooden floor with wood ashes, takes the clothes out to air in the sun and sweeps the grain in the barn. It is believed that if the house is clean, the grain will be of good quality during the next year. .


    i think we have to plant the grain too while the menfolk drink the last of last years wine.

  12. Spooky quiet in here. That Walsh thread is just sad.

  13. @Leni -- you can bet that tradition was started by a man.

  14. Leni - that is completely fucked-up and backwards. Any wine is mine, I tells ya.

    Montana - off again? Or just sneaking in at lunch?

  15. Hi all.

    Na, it's because the women in Bulgaria can't trust the men to do the job properly ...

  16. Oh, and the Walsh thread: auto assembly line workers making $70/hr or $100K - what a load of complete toss.

    They *might* make $60K - that's working 80 hours per week and only having a total of 10 working days off a year, or something.

    Fucking arseholes spreading this - people who've worked in an assy plant for 20 years look 20 years older than they actually are, usually. Little daylight, boring and repetitive jobs, bullying, stress of keeping up with a high-turnover line and RSI - not conducive to good health.

  17. Aye - MsChin - that's true.

    interesting how many 'ancient customs' from around the world involve women working.

  18. Watched the bloke installing the main wiring harness for the Dodge Durango in Noo Joisey. He had something like 5 seconds on a 70 jobs/hr line to install it. Brilliant at it and maniacally fast.

  19. Ooh - rugby's starting! COME ON CONNACHTA!

  20. Audio is crap - but I can still hear how biassed the commentators are toward the Blues. *hmph*

  21. Spot on thauma - assembly work is shitty and degrading

    We need more discussion about work sharing in the future. Politicians need to understand that if you want to improve the quality of life for the many then you need to be more radical in your thinking than simply..........call fucking centre jobs

    Toynbee et al would have more credibility if they were arguing for job sharing of the more interesting of jobs. I could stomach her once a month, or so, if others had a shot in between.

    All the promise of new technology has not gone into liberating people from fucking tedious work . It could have done so much more than making the super rich.... super super rich.

  22. Incapacity Benefit - Advisory 5 of 10

    "Evidence is what makes or breaks every incapacity benefit claim.

    This is because the decision about whether you are capable of work is based entirely on evidence.

    The questionnaire you complete is evidence, as are the sick notes completed by your GP and the report of the Atos doctor or nurse if you have to have a medical.

    The more detailed, relevant evidence you can submit to support your claim, the better the chances of success either at the initial claim stage or at an appeal. You can submit both medical evidence from your GP and other health professionals and non-medical evidence from social workers, housing workers, friends, relatives and carers, for example.

    When you are collecting evidence, always try to arrange to have letters sent to you rather than direct to the DWP. If your doctor is reluctant to do this, point out that you want to keep a copy for your records because it is far from unknown for the DWP to lose papers.

    Read any evidence before you submit it. If there are points in it that are incorrect or missing and this might damage your case, try contacting the writer and asking them to send you an altered version. If they won’t do this, or if the evidence is unhelpful for any other reason, then simply don’t submit it. This is your claim, so it’s your decision.

    Carefully structured evidence can make all the difference to your claim, as this member discovered:

    “I received an IB50 in November and solely used your guide books to complete the form. I spent a lot of time completing the forms ensuring that I followed your guidelines. . . . I have just received a letter (after 2 ½ months) from Jobcentre Plus to say I had met the threshold of incapacity under the PCA because I had scored the necessary points and my case would come up for normal review in 2012. I had to read the letter a few times for it to sink in as this was achieved without going for a medical or submitting a Med 4. I put this solely down to the advice in your guide whereby we are shown the framework on how to answer the questions properly.”

  23. Incapacity Benefit - Advisory 6 of 10

    "There’s something you should do as soon as you know that you’re making a claim or renewal claim for incapacity benefit or income support: make sure your GP and any other health professional the DWP might contact is fully updated about your condition and how it affects you.

    Very often the DWP will contact your GP for additional evidence even if they are not your primary health carer and you have told them so on your questionnaire.

    If they do so they will tell your GP not to contact you first but just to fill in the form – usually a from IB113 - based on their knowledge of you and on your medical records. Your GP will be paid for completing the form even if the evidence they provide is incomplete, inaccurate or based on entirely out-of-date information.

    Claimants all too often end up at appeals because although they gave detailed and accurate evidence in their questionnaire, the evidence from their GP did not support what they were saying. Frequently a GP will be prepared to write a supporting letter for the appeal, explaining that they didn’t realise the extent of your problems untiol they spoke to you. But by then the damage may have been done: the tribunal have to decide whether the doctor’s new evidence has been given under pressure from the claimant or not..

    So, if you haven’t talked to your GP recently about the difficulties you are having that are relevant to your claim, make sure you do so as soon as you possibly can. And don’t be afraid to take up a little more of your GP’s time on this occasion, so that you are sure they have all the details they need. It could make all the difference between success and failure.

    Tomorrow: How six and six make fifteen

    Good luck"

  24. Leni

    Presumably it's a tradition because we women have been historically associated with nature and the earth. I'm fascinated by the old goddesses, who were linked with crop growing, fertility etc etc. Would love to know more about the venus figures that date from 25000 years or so ago and have been found across Europe.

    On a different note, Google's looking good today in a stone age kinda way!

  25. "Morning Montana!

    I like despair Inc.! And i like the demotivator!"

    Me too Montana some of them made me smile and some made laugh and some made me......despair.

    Hope your son is fighting fit again.

  26. Hi Deano - have one eye on the rugby so will look at your link later on.

    I think robotics has gone a long way in manufacturing to get rid of the most dangerous jobs but those jobs need replacing. Will say more about this later.

  27. cubedatrandom
    30 September 2010 8:31PM

    If anyone here is a member at The Untrusted forum, can they pass on that the information being given about Incapacity Benefit assessments and preperation over the last few days is all inaccurate because it's with regard to the PCA, which has been abandoned in favour of the WCA.

    I'd hate anyone to read that stuff and think they are preparing for ESA. It's completely different now.


  28. I used to work for a temp agency that sent us in to do the easy work in a lot of technical places, some of it wasn't that bad, at one place we were all sat at benches putting washing machine dials together, no real pressure and you could have a cuppa and a fag on the go.

    What you had to be careful about was being too good at the job because someone would spot it and put you on one of the lines, which were fucking hellish.

    I did it once for a couple of weeks (putting three wires into specific holes in circuit boards) and how people do stuff like that on a long term basis I will never know, simple enough to be boring but fiddly enough to make sure you have to concentrate at all times.

    I have never been more worn down by a job in my life, and I have had some really shitty jobs.

  29. Hi deano

    I have just been browsing on WADDYA and somewhere there reckons you've been giving out the wrong info regarding the new ATOS medicals for ESA.That the info you've been giving out is actually for the Personal Capability Assessment (PCA)for Incapacity Benefit(IB) rather than its replacement which is the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) for Employment and Support Allowance(ESA).

    Could you please double check the info you've been giving out and delete it if it's wrong.

  30. About auto manufacturing.

    An assembly plant is divided into three major parts: Body (the metal

    structure), Paint, and Trim/Chassis/Final, where the painted body is

    married to the engine and drivetrain, and the interior bits and

    exterior bling put on.

    Each vehicle has hundreds of welds. They are split up into three main

    categories: critical welds (workpiece won't make it intact to next

    station without), safety welds (needed for structural integrity), and

    the rest which are needed to make a nice coherent vehicle. Needless

    to say, working out which welds are necessary at each station as the

    structure is built up is a very difficult job.

    Welding is a very dirty and dangerous job, and is mostly performed by

    robots in first-world assembly plants. It's also imprecise when

    performed by humans and may lead to structural non-integrity if

    mistakes are made.

    First-world assembly plants generally use robots for welding, but a

    lot of US operations (for example) have been outsourced to Mexico

    where labour is cheaper than robotics. Not only is this dangerous for

    workers, but it can lead to problems with vehicular structural


    Once the body has been built up, it goes on to the paint shop. There

    is a very complex algorithm relating to the order in which cars have

    to be built in order to put them through paint in the most efficient

    order: the paint tanks have to be dumped periodically and light

    colours can't follow dark colours, etc., so obviously the most

    efficient solution is sought.

    As far as I know, painting is entirely robotic due to the chemicals,

    but it's possible that some third-world assembly plants are still

    using manual labour.

    Once the painted body emerges from the drying process, bits of it

    usually go off in different directions: the doors, for example, go on

    a separate line. This is partly because it's easier to install the

    trim components (seats, dashboards, etc) when the doors are not on,

    and also because the doors require all their own bits: the padding,

    electronic controls, etc. These bits must be reunited with the

    original body at the end of the process in order to ensure colour

    integrity in the finished vehicle. Also, usually completely different

    vehicles are built on the same production line, so it's essential

    that they can be matched up at the end. Quite a complicated job.

    At this point, the body is lowered onto the chassis, which is another

    job often done by robots but even in the first world sometimes still

    done by a load of humans with big sticks to direct the body properly.

    Again, the proper body for the particular ordered vehicle has to be

    loaded onto the appropriate chassis, so it is a very complicated

    process. (Even if the vehicles on the line are still the same badge,

    think about engine options, body options, colour options, etc.)

    The vehicle then goes off to have the wiring, seats, console, floors,

    ceilings, steering wheel, etc etc installed, as well as the exterior

    bits such as the brand logo and any bling ordered. Eventually it

    meets up with its doors and any other bits that may have gone off


    Much of the trim is done semi-manually but with power (and laser)

    -assisted robotic tools, for example windscreen and dashboard


    I could go on at great length about how software eases these

    difficulties, but I've probably bored everyone enough.

  31. Damn Notepad for adding extra lines!

  32. Paul I make no claim to special expertise in these matters.

    People do need to understand that that there are technical differences between the ESA benefit (which was introduced in 2008) and the old Incapacity Benefit (which still exists for many claimants who were signed on the benefit before 2008.

    As you will see all the information I have provided is clearly marked as pertaining to Incapacity Benefit. It makes no claim as to it's relevance to ESA.

    ESA is even more problematic than Incapacity Benefit!!!!

    I seem to recall someone (PeterJ?) providing us with the above link that attempted to explain the diffferences 'tween IB and ESA.

    I can say that a friend had an Incapicty Benefit ATOS medical only last Tuesday. Me friend reported that the experience was in line with the procedure roughly outlined in my 'briefings'. That friend is absolutely clear that he wishes he had been forewarned about what was coming.....he thinks he will loose his benefit through his ignorance.

    In fairness anybody carefully reading what I have provided can only draw one conclusion....ie, ALERT ALERT ALERT BE CAREFUL AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK YOU ARE IN A MINE FIELD!. I think that stands for both IB and ESA claimants.

    As with all free advice.........nobody is claiming that IB or ESA can be assured from simply reading guides. It's only about increasing the odds marginally in favbour of the claimant.

    My intention is is to do no more than issue a general warning/alert to encourage folk to do some homework.

    Our special UT friends (PCC/Jen) can, if they wish, have access to my password for the pay site which offers seperate guides for ESA and IB. I do not intend to make it available to all and sundry

    I'm sure that UT's have more than sufficient nous to sort out what will be relevant and helpful to their particular circumstances

    Hope this helps clarify the status of The IB Advisorys thus far provided.

  33. Deano - suspect that the rules haven't really changed from new and old anyway, and all the same guidelines still apply, only more so.

  34. Deano

    i'm glad you have come back on this - from what I know about it - reading and reports from people - it is much understanding that the aim of the assessment is to find you fit to work - any work.

    Although the details may vary slightly it is certainly true that people need forewarning. They are not looking for how your disability limits you - they are looking for anything you can do which would make you able to do some work as they see it.

    The intention is to take people off the benefit.

  35. Thanks Montana,thauma, for the hat-tip to the Walshe article , I haven't looked at the comments, and maybe not necessary to do so, unless masochism kicks in !

    The underlying fact of upward re-distribution of incomes and wealth is just there . Undeniable . Extrapolate the trend , and we all end up in Brazil 1970.

    Because of globalisation, there is inevitably going to be a reduction of the average standard of living in the formerly rich developed world . No escaping from that , but the vital question is exactly WHO is going to take that 'pain'.

    Well, since we are actually very rich countries still, with Ferraris in the streets, why should the 'pain' fall always on the less well able to take it ?

  36. deano and thauma

    The problem is that the rules from PCA to WCA have changed quite significantly which is why some of us are kicking up such a stink about it.We obviously have a lot of lurkers here and someone felt strongly enough about it to raise it on WADDYA.The PCA is being phased out.New claimants have been subjected to the WCA for a while now whilst existing claimants like Jen and PCC will gradually be retested under the WCA over the next 3 years.Therefore the info for PCA is in effect null and void and potentially misleading for anybody-regulars or lurkers-faced with the WCA.

  37. Is there an archive on this site for recording
    random posts from other sources that might help future generations de-construct the collective insanity around the myth of the American Dream?
    Just lobbing this one in for posterity and another from Golem about the stitch up in Ireland.

    How was George Carlin a 'poster boy for the American Dream'? I'm not sure I really get what you mean....

    Anyhow, the quote is from a part of one of his HBO sets talking about why so many dumb Americans are willing to be screwed over; poor education. Here is the full quote:

    "There's a reason for this, there's a reason education sucks, and it's the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better. Don't look for it. Be happy with what you've got... because the owners of this country don’t want that. I'm talking about the real owners now... the real owners. The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls. They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin’ years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.

  38. Sorry, had to split in two (html won't accept more than 4096 characters). Here's the second half:
    "And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good, honest, hard-working people: white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good, honest, hard-working people continue — these are people of modest means — continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all! At all! At all! And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it." from 'Life is Worth Losing' (2005). He got it spot on..."

    It's from the Walshe thread on CIF if you want more context.(Deviantinc 2.15pm. 30 September)

    Report abuse
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  39. I think my last post must have been consigned to the spam bin. Could someone do the necessary and retrieve it?

    It's linked to my first 'cos I got ("html won't accept more than 4096 characters") so I had to split it in two.

  40. QT

    Starkey is exhibiting his own own brand of tory idiocy - insanity really.

  41. So people who's coming ??

    It's an easy 60 mins from London; 45 from Birmingham, 60 mins from Cambrige,

    Get in there...

    Mordor never looked so fucking enticing.

  42. Try again, just in case the spam folder wasn't the culprit:

    "And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good, honest, hard-working people: white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good, honest, hard-working people continue — these are people of modest means — continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all! At all! At all! And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it." from 'Life is Worth Losing' (2005). He got it spot on..."

    If you want more context, it's from the Walshe thread on CIF: (30 September;2.15pm)

  43. HM Govt Information:

    ESA and the Work Capability Test

    Paul advice that the current IB tests are null and void may be too simplistic and may mislead.

    It is still the case that the tests currently applicable to IB benefit holders (who are the majority by number) will form the basis of any subsequent IB appeal for those currently being thrown off the IB benefit.

    The best advice for anybody who is confused is to seek informed advice and expect even more difficulties ahead.

    In due course it will plainly be helpful to highlight the differences between the two tests and I'm sure that the ESA tests will be even more draconian.

    The 'hardness' of the new may be better appreciated by comparison with the 'old'.

    To this end I've registered to receive advisory information emails on the ESA tests and will copy them here in due course.

  44. And a DAY from rural Normandy ! Actually personally not up to it at the mom, but surely will be fun .X

  45. Get over here now frog. We got issues to sort.


  46. BW

    It's a bugger of an area to get to from up here if you don't drive, the buses like to go through every town in the North before they head your way.

  47. Fuck I've been spammed again

  48. Bitterweed

    I'll be there in spirit:-)

  49. Paul - You'll have to read back tommorrow when I've been unspammed by Montana in the morning.

    Night all.

  50. Jennifer
    Get on the bus, I'll sort out the stopping over arrangements. No bother. Can you not come down with chekhov and/or the Sheff gang ?


    for info

    Well come on dude, it's only a few stops up from londres. Why the fuck not ?! Get yer oyster out young man!

  51. Deano
    Something weird here
    You're the only one getting spammed.

    Email me at the above.


  52. BW

    I can't afford it this time around but I hope to get there next time.

  53. Oh, bollocks, this spam filter is a pain in the arse.Can't you turn it off, Montana? It's your site after all. Why should you be beholden to outside influences?

  54. Fair enuff jenn; we will be chucking you incomprehensible messages though; mark my words ;-)

    Any ways people.

    *What* spam filter ?


  55. Bitterweed -- always eager to sort issues :) , but actually driving more than half an hour is problematic for me .

    I had a succession of strokes (1st april last year. . . hehe ! ) and since then i'm no longer half-paralysed but driving sends me to sleep. I can remain alert sitting here talking to you, but behind the wheel it's different.

    That experience has made me particularly sensitive to the case of other border-line Disabled, because many people think I'm perfectly 'back to normal', because I'm pretty good at pretending, but the reality on driving and much much else is very different .

    Some of my young musician friends were talking music-shop after closing-time in the pub " Crizziswotcrizzis" ? they said. Duh ?

    Ah! " Crisis , What Crisis !"

  56. @jennifera30: If I remember rightly you are in Middlesborough. I'm driving down from Newcastle Upon Tyne to the "bunfight" in Northampton on Saturday. If you want to hitch a ride, I'd be more than willing to pick you up on the way.

  57. dave...
    kids...they've got nothing on us....

  58. Thanks for the offer Chekhov but I really had better leave it this time, it isn't just the money I have a lot of revision to do.

    Keep me in mind for next time though as getting anywhere from Middlesbrough is a bloody pain.

  59. Bitterweed -- that was a rather anodyne track ! I like what I've heard so far , and at least I can understand the words, nice and clear for the aged hard of hearing .

    Our landlady in the pub is very strict . When there are good lyrics, and people insist on talking through them, she stops the music. And tells them why .

    An unusual pub ?

  60. Would be nice to meet you sometime Jen

    Thanks to Martillo for this one a couple of years back.


  61. @jennifera30: no worries: let me know if you want to attend another "bunfight" and I'll see what I can do.

  62. For the late risers....


  63. Fuck me! That's a coincidence! Just logged in. How's it going, BW?

  64. Ok
    I'm off


  65. Sailing By Abuser...



  66. Not bad Martillo, got to go in the next ten tho
    Account for yourself man !